My view of the war

[Doll]

Gator, BS is what you posted. PURE American brainwashed writing.

[Boethius]

Doll, I don't think it is brainwashed BS, and my sources are not all American.  I will go through Gator's post point by point.  Please tell me where you believe this American brainwashing BS occurs.

Doll,
Just because Putin and his spokesman say something, does not make it Pravda. 

That is true.  Putin has admitted lying in the past (about Russian troops being in Moldova, in Georgia, and in Crimea).

You grew up in Russia.  Did the government always tell you the truth?

You must remember a time growing up when Soviet newspapers printed outright lies. 

One of my husband's winter pastimes was to read Soviet newspapers.  He would do so alone in his room.  His mother would hear him laughing madly, and wondered what he was reading that was so hilarious.  The blatant lies, and the stupidity of what was printed as truth, amused him then. 

Why do I say Bullshit?  "no official Russian troops on Ukrainian soil,"

There are Russian troops on Ukrainian soil.  Some have been captured (as I posted previously).  Some have been buried secretly in Russia.  But it is not B.S.  There are Russian troops in Donbas, there is no secret about it.

"coup d'état orchestrated by Western nations,

Personally, I do think what occurred was a coup d'etat.  However, it was not orchestrated by Western nations, and it was replaced with a new democratically elected president and Rada.

"immediately endorsed."

It was not immediate, and it is realpolitik.

The reason these countries joined NATO is Russia's fault, and it happened over a long period of time in three stages.  First, the bordering countries and other Warsaw Pact countries had a bad taste from how the Soviets treated them for 45 years.

That is very true.  There was a resentment of the USSR in Poland, in Hungary, in Czechoslovakia.  There was resentment of Russians in the Baltic republics. 

Second, after the collapse of the Soviet grip, the economies of these countries improved only after weaning themselves from Russia and drawing closer to the West. 

I don't know if I would call it weaning themselves from Russia.  However, their economies did improve, markedly, when they were freed from socialism. 

Third, upon  developing a viable economy aligned with the West, joining NATO was natural,particularly with Russia was behaving like an angry bear.    So NATO never would have happened if the Soviets had been better "masters," if Russia had helped these bordering countries develop their economies in the years after the collapse of the Soviet grip, and if Russia had been more about peace.

I would say "Soviet", not "Russian".  I don't agree completely with the above premise, but I do agree that all these nations joined NATO because they feared Russia would attempt to reassert its former dominance, or influence (depending on the country) on them, and they wanted NATO membership as a guarantee that would not occur.

[Photo Guy]

Personally, I do think what occurred was a coup d'etat.  However, it was not orchestrated by Western nations, and it was replaced with a new democratically elected president and Rada.

So true! And when Putin called it a coup d'etat, the response should've been:
Yes, you are right. And 100,000 demonstrators on the Maidan wanted to remove a corrupt dictator, and install a more democratic leader, who would bring Ukraine closer to the West. ...Putin's political ideology needs to be confronted.

[JayH]

.

http://news.liga.net/news/politics/3740325-obnarodovana_tablitsa_po_poteryam_rossiyskoy_armii_v_ukraine.htm

Promulgated loss table of the Russian army in Ukraine
19/10/2014 22:17Print
Preliminary data for the fallen soldiers of the Russian Federation today released a Russian human rights activist Yelena Vasilyeva

Promulgated loss table of the Russian army in Ukraine
Photo: tourdnepr.com
In Ukraine, killing up to 4,360 troops of the Russian Federation. On Sunday, October 19, in his blog said the founder of the "Georgia-200 from Ukraine to Russia," Russian human rights activist Yelena Vasilyeva.

At the same time, she said, the Russian Defense Ministry acknowledged the death of 900 soldiers of the Russian army. As proof of Vassiliev unveiled table with preliminary data for the dead

[JayH]

What are the losses of the Russian troops in Ukraine

<a href="http://liga.net/">Источник</a>

http://news.liga.net/articles/politics/3130513-smertniki_kakovy_poteri_rossiyskikh_voysk_v_ukraine.htm

Hundreds of Russian soldiers returning home from Ukraine in the form of "Cargo 200". But most of the corpses left in the Donbass, in unmarked mass graves

Bombers.  What are the losses of the Russian troops in Ukraine
Captured Russian paratroopers, who, according to Putin, lost in the Ukraine, patrolling the border of their country
The Kremlin is becoming more difficult to control the flow of information about the dead Russian soldiers in Ukraine. Internet is literally littered with evidence of relatives, someone's husband was killed, someone - a son or father. The truth about the unmarked graves in Ukraine will reveal the years - so it was in Afghanistan, Yugoslavia and in Chechnya. Now it will be in the Donbass. LigaBusinessInform  tried to establish the number of victims of Russian Putin's war against Ukraine.
How many Russian battalions "got lost" in Ukraine

At least four battalion tactical groups of Russian Armed Forces are fighting on the territory of Ukraine - these are the official figures of the Ukrainian authorities. It is approximately 400-600 soldiers and officers in each BTG, excluding the gain - armor, artillery and air defense. Source LigaBusinessInform in one of the security agencies adds that in general aggression against Ukraine involved from 5 to 10 thousand Russian soldiers, who from time to time supplement invasion forces and their fire support unit at the border. Figure of 10 thousand people  and confirmed by Russian soldiers.
The interviewee confirms that many Russian soldiers who throw in the Ukraine, the real purpose of his visit "to exercise" already know the territory of Ukraine. During interrogations, the detainees told: first inductees threats translate into a contract, then carry on the teachings of the Rostov region, and throw a couple of days in Ukraine: "We were thrown back like some meat." "Most often, the truth is known only to the officers. Everyone else is necessary to perform the task, and not ask questions. Do you want to or not - are forced to sign a contract and go to die in the Ukraine," - said the source, who participated in the interrogation of detainees Russian paratroopers.
However, many men go to war against Ukraine consciously. Photos about their "exploits" they publish pages on social networks. And why, if the operations are conducted in secret - the answer to the surface. Most of the soldiers - came from the Russian hinterland, depressed regions of the Russian Federation. This "ordinary Russians" who are not up to the intricacies of the Kremlin.

<a href="http://liga.net/">Источник</a>

[Boethius]

An interesting piece on how the Donbas conflict started in Donetsk.

http://ukrainianweek.com/Politics/126819
 

[JayH]

An interesting piece on how the Donbas conflict started in Donetsk.

http://ukrainianweek.com/Politics/126819

Interesting perspective indeed.  I don't disagree with most of it--but-- as I have said before-some very close to action do not see the total picture. The chronology is about right here I think-- but my information also comes from on the spot source. In particular-- the timing of the appearance of the "green men" at various stages.
What is written here pretty much is in line with what Mrs B has written in the past here( correct MrsB?) --I believe Russian regulars( as in special forces-maybe very specialised forces) were in eastern Ukraine very early to assist the locals--but it was not very long before it was Russians directing activities-- and trying to direct all activities.
Also worth mentioning--in the early days after Maidan the SBU was hopelessly conflicted and penetrated by the FSB-- and like the military itself--that has taken time to rectify . It is likely to be a difficulty for the forseeable future-- although in some ares already rectified.

Who is Waging the War in the Luhansk People’s Republic
Widely perceived as the economic and political tandem of the Donbas, Luhansk and Donetsk oblasts have actually never been equal partners

http://ukrainianweek.com/Society/126465

[Anotherkiwi]

An interesting piece on how the Donbas conflict started in Donetsk.

http://ukrainianweek.com/Politics/126819

It's interesting, but who is the author and what is/was his status at the time?  His name isn't given, and I certainly don't know enough about Donetsk politics to recognise him from the photo.

[Boethius]

The man in the photo is Rinat Akhmetov, a Donbas oligarch.
Given the nature of the article, the author's name was withheld.
 

[Anotherkiwi]

The man in the photo is Rinat Akhmetov, a Donbas oligarch.
Given the nature of the article, the author's name was withheld.

Thanks Boethius.

[Muzh]

Ukraine’s Year of Precarious Triumph


Much remains to be done, but the wheel of fortune has turned against Putin.


By BERNARD-HENRI LÉVY
Dec. 30, 2014 6:55 p.m. ET



If one had to choose a solitary event as the signal moment of 2014, it would have to be Ukraine’s self-liberation. But the story is hardly finished as the year draws to a close. Here is the Ukraine scorecard so far:


Petro Poroshenko. The way history has of taking hold of an individual and, as André Malraux said, lifting him above himself, making him greater than he was, is a sign that we are witnessing crucial historical events. I saw the alchemy occur in the 1970s when Mujibur Rahman rose to the leadership of an independent Bangladesh, and later with Commander Ahmad Shah Massoud in Afghanistan’s revolt against Soviet domination. Think also of Lech Walesa in Poland and Václav Havel in the Czech Republic.


To those avatars of contemporary greatness add the name Petro Poroshenko. I met this successful Ukrainian businessman during the Maidan protests a year ago, and watched as he quickly evolved into a wise statesman and forceful wartime leader. Even before his election as president in May, he stood up to Vladimir Putin when everyone else, except in the U.S., was bowing down: President Poroshenko, the personification of a free and fighting Ukraine.



Anti-Semitism. It is no secret that hatred of Jews has been one of Ukraine’s open wounds, a stain on its memory, a national shame. But in the long process of eradicating the anti-Semitic virus—a process that began with Ukraine’s resistance to Stalinist totalitarianism—this year may prove to have been decisive. During the Maidan protests, Jews in yarmulkes mixed with Ukrainian nationalists and Cossacks in Astrakhan hats. In the long months of the revolution, these Ukrainians united in the brotherhood instilled by the pursuit of freedom. One of the inestimable virtues of Ukraine 2014 has been the continuing drive to isolate and marginalize the country’s historical anti-Semitism, though more work remains to be done.


France. Hollande-bashing has been the oxygen of French political life in 2014, but the inspiring way the French president handled Ukraine should give his critics pause. I admired his decision to invite President Poroshenko to the D-Day celebrations in Normandy, knowing that Vladimir Putin would also be there. But the truly great gesture was President Hollande’s recent refusal to deliver two Mistral warships that Russia had ordered in 2011. It was a courageous decision, one that exposed him to unfair accusations of endangering French jobs, yet it was the right one: You don’t aid a wartime enemy, and you don’t court the ire of your allies.


Europe and the U.S. A year ago, when young Ukrainian protesters were dying while clasping the blue flag of the European Union, the EU’s fecklessness was enraging. But over the course of 2014, Europe gradually embraced its responsibilities as the threat from Moscow became clear. The U.S. set the example, pressing for economic sanctions and spurring the EU to action. The latest encouraging sign: On Dec. 18 President Obama signed into law the Ukraine Freedom Support Act, which authorizes the delivery to Ukraine of “anti-tank and anti-armor weapons, crew weapons and ammunition, counter-artillery radars to identify and target artillery batteries . . . tactical troop-operated surveillance drones, and secure command and communications equipment.”


Sanctions have produced real effects: the slide of the ruble, the tumble of the Moscow stock market and massive capital flight. As we once saw in South Africa (and soon enough, one hopes, in Iran), firmness on sanctions paid off. Contrary to the self-serving myths of those who are running out of ways to justify their impulse to appease, this corollary of Clausewitz’s theorem has once again been demonstrated: Economics is the continuation of politics and war by far better means.


Putin. A year ago, Vladimir Putin was regarded in many quarters as a master strategist. Now? Yes, Crimea is still occupied, and the Donbas region still bleeds, wounded by Moscow-backed separatists. But the would-be emperor is naked, his economy in ruins. Russians are beginning to doubt the calculations of the ex-KGB man. With the Ukrainian Parliament last week voicing its nearly unanimous desire to join NATO, and the presidents of Belarus and Kazakhstan—two pillars of Eurasianism dear to Mr. Putin’s heart—recently visiting Kiev, the death knell may be sounding for the Russian president’s imperial and anti-Western project. He finishes the year much worse off than he began it, in retreat and increasingly alone in his theater of shadows.


This process still must play out. Ukraine needs economic help, and I will continue to champion the idea of a modern Marshall Plan administered by Europe and the U.S. But the wheel of fortune has turned. Now, suddenly, it seems that 2015 could be the year when Ukraine’s victory is complete.


Mr. Lévy’s books include “Left in Dark Times: A Stand Against the New Barbarism” (Random House, 2008). This op-ed was translated from the French by Steven B. Kennedy.


http://www.wsj.com/articles/bernard-henri-levy-ukraines-year-of-precarious-triumph-1419983734

[lordtiberius]

Its a bit rosy.

[mendeleyev]

Sometimes reality is rosy. Stop and smell those roses, LT.

It is realistic? None of us can predict the future, but tonight at 8pm in Moscow on 31 December, he is pretty much on target.

As with all things in war and love, tomorrow could be very different.

[Muzh]

Sometimes reality is rosy. Stop and smell those roses, LT.

It is realistic? None of us can predict the future, but tonight at 8pm in Moscow on 31 December, he is pretty much on target.

As with all things in war and love, tomorrow could be very different.

Mendy, may you and your family have a safe and happy New Year's.

[Muzh]

Its a bit rosy.

Oh?


I'm pretty sure that your Christian soul would prefer this piece of neocon bullshevism, right?



Progressives and Disorder


The next two years may be the most dangerous since the Cold War ended.

In an interview this week with National Public Radio, Mr. Obama offered an apt description of the progressive foreign-policy vision. “When it comes to ISIL, us devoting another trillion dollars after having been involved in big occupations of countries that didn’t turn out all that well” is something he is hesitant to do.


Instead, he said, “We need to spend a trillion dollars rebuilding our schools, our roads, our basic science and research here in the United States; that is going to be a recipe for our long-term security and success.”


That $1 trillion figure is one of the President’s famous straw-man arguments. But what is the recipe if an ISIL or other global rogue doesn’t get his memo?

http://www.wsj.com/articles/progressives-and-disorder-1419985886


Another trillion dollars wasted in military adventurism to make the world Christian, right?

[lordtiberius]

Oh?


I'm pretty sure that your Christian soul would prefer this piece of neocon bullshevism, right?



Progressives and Disorder


The next two years may be the most dangerous since the Cold War ended.



http://www.wsj.com/articles/progressives-and-disorder-1419985886


Another trillion dollars wasted in military adventurism to make the world Christian, right?

Christian soldiers need not take lessons of history from atheists who stand on the bodies of millions killed in totalitarian genocides perpetrated by atheist regimes. 

[lordtiberius]

Sometimes reality is rosy. Stop and smell those roses, LT.

It is realistic? None of us can predict the future, but tonight at 8pm in Moscow on 31 December, he is pretty much on target.

As with all things in war and love, tomorrow could be very different.

I feel so safe while Putin has nukes. 

[mendeleyev]

As do Pakistan and North Korea. MAD is still a very valid deterrent.

[lordtiberius]

That comparison isn't really fair to the Pakis or Fatty Kim.

[Muzh]

Christian soldiers need not take lessons of history from atheists who stand on the bodies of millions killed in totalitarian genocides perpetrated by atheist regimes.

Why don't you put your money where your mouth is and:


a) become a Ukrainian citizen, then
b) join the army fighting in the eastern regions?


C'mon, make JC proud.

[lordtiberius]

C'mon, make JC proud.

You will get your wish someday Muzh.  But remember we BOTH will die someday.  Until then , , ,

[Muzh]

You will get your wish someday Muzh.  But remember we BOTH will die someday.  Until then , , ,

Until then I can start making arrangements for your deployment in Donetsk....

[lordtiberius]

Until then I can start making arrangements for your deployment in Donetsk....

Sure.  Private message me and we can discuss it face to face!

[Muzh]

Sure.  Private message me and we can discuss it face to face!

Are you kidding?


Your face can wrinkle a Mack truck!

[lordtiberius]

Yeah, ok