New dating search Specification & what I've Learned

[Trenchcoat]

For God's sake, TC ditch this 'no direct flight' nonsense..it's simply a daft barrier to exclude someone that you might click with ..It's not like Ukraine is so far from us. Lviv is a hop via Munich or similar.

TC, I wrote to several ladies, but kept the numbers manageable - One can end up spending too much time on Skype - if there was one I really clicked with I would go.

Indeed - we are all keyboard romeos - until we get on the plane. Many of SC's friends were doubting I'd turn up ...Shows what sort of impression some of our fore-runners have left

via Munich landing where???

I haven't looked in depth but there doesn't seem to be an airport near Lviv, the nearest ones that come up are Kiev, Odessa, Warsaw.

Sure, I could take the time out to go miles out on a bus or train for hours & hours to some location, but unless I sure a girl is a dead cert before meeting her on skype if that is even at all possible I don't want to be spending loads of time journeying when I could be using that time meeting women. Why can't I meet a girl I am into from searching in 1 city, it should be possible. Sure a search in any location in the FSU could turn up one, perhaps more remote means less guys trying there, but the question of whether there is chemistry still remains. I tried that on the first date, I got her to travel to me from Mariupol to Kiev, but the affection was not forthcoming from her, she seemed thrilled beforehand though when I agreed to make the journey (and nice while there, but no affection).

Hence its not a very efficient way to go about the search from what I can see at the moment, it may have worked for some like yourself, but many could go on like that for years, some people don't mind they enjoy the travelling. I though am thinking of a more targeted approach that will hopefully turn up trumps within a reasonably short space of time, hopefully. I may be wrong or right on this but I can only go by what my two trip experiences have taught me so far, and that is the odds seem generally better among FSW that are English speakers.

My personal thoughts on keyboard romeo's are those that have never been. If you have been before then it belies this notion, sure you may still not go, but the background is that you are open to it actually being on the cards, not a wishful thinking or whatever. I personally wouldn't go again just if a girl was in doubt if I were for real, I would need to be sure there was something there first rather than make the journey on a whim.

[Boethius]

There is an airport in L'viv.  The fastest way to get there would be from Warsaw, which is about an hour flight.

[2tallbill]

Lviv and Tbilisi are two places that I have really been wanting to see so maybe that's next on my FSUW pursuit.

Georgia is a beautiful place, the food, the history the culture is amazing. The mountains,
the churches, etc. You will never find a friendlier group of people. You can ask anyone
on the street and they will drop everything to help you. You can trust the police (mostly).

Pursuing a wife in Georgia will be very difficult, nearly impossible if you don't move there.
They don't have agencies, they don't go on Mamba and you will find it very challenging to
get a date or two. I had over a hundred contacts in Georgia and I struggled to get a few
dates.

Lviv will be far easier to find romance especially if you want to use the internet to help
you.

Udachi!

Bill

[lyndontom]

There is an airport in L'viv.  The fastest way to get there would be from Warsaw, which is about an hour flight.

From the UK there are very cheap direct flights to Rzeszow and a driver costs $120 from there to Lviv one way. It's probably the quickest and easiest way, if not the cheapest. In fact when I was looking at travelling there, the driver from Poland to Ukraine was more expensive than the return flight which was roughly $160.


But unless you're really tight on time and looking to cram in a short city break, the direct/non-direct flight thing shouldn't be an issue.

[2tallbill]

that much of Georgia's women are very conservative with a heavy influence of Muslim culture. At least that's the impression I have.

Georgia's women are very conservative for sure. The vast majority are Orthodox
Christians. I don't think that you will find many similarities with Muslims except that
they tend to keep a pretty good eye on their daughters. Georgians woman won't give
you all the same buying signals that you will get from a Ukrainian woman.

[Boethius]

From the UK there are very cheap direct flights to Rzeszow and a driver costs $120 from there to Lviv one way. It's probably the quickest and easiest way, if not the cheapest. In fact when I was looking at travelling there, the driver from Poland to Ukraine was more expensive than the return flight which was roughly $160.


But unless you're really tight on time and looking to cram in a short city break, the direct/non-direct flight thing shouldn't be an issue.

Interesting, and thank you.  I only ever fly there from Kyiv.  I would not have thought to check international flights to a city the size of Rzeszow.

[lyndontom]

Interesting, and thank you.  I only ever fly there from Kyiv.  I would not have thought to check international flights to a city the size of Rzeszow.

Me either, it was only when researching a potential trip to Lviv. I just looked now and the flights start at £50 return from London with Ryanair depending on dates. To Poland it can be ridiculously inexpensive.


I asked the car driver I was put in touch with and he said crossing the border recently has been a painless exercise, as this concerned me a little.

[GuppyCaptain]

Thanks Bill. Perhaps I'll save Georgia for a trip with a woman I'm already dating. That's the plan for the FULL Transiberian Railroad. The poor girl (whoever she is) just doesn't know it yet 

I appreciate the tips and advice. I'm drawn to Georgia for its food, mountains, and wine. Maybe I'll just take a trip there and if I only meet a lady or two that's fine as well. It's a place I'd really like to see.

[Trenchcoat]

Expecting to win the lottery is with even a truck load of tickets is a bit over optimistic wouldn't you think Patie? When I first started looking in 05-06 I thought most were going the VM route. To me it still appears to be true. Many guys started on a VM and eventually went VO and found success. I don't know of any that went the other way around. Personally, I wouldn't call 10 trips meeting 100 women and planning the next trip and next 10 women a success 5-10 years later, would you?

Sure there are plenty of guys that went the VO made the trip with high hopes, the relationship went tits up soon after. Some continued on, others by the wayside but, I'll still contend the success rate is about the same. That's based solely on a guess from peeps I know from the boards or personally. Nothing scientific but I would be really surprised if one proved more successful than the other.
IMHO, should one have their wit about them, not get themselves to high or excited over the prospects without realizing the woman is real and just like any other woman they know and treat the VO relationship and trip just as they do any other meeting with a native lady, it has the same possibilities to succeed or fail as any other relationship

To my mind to get a string of girls lined up on WMVM to the same standard as a WMVO is nearly impossible. It would mean making writing to girls your full time job, or employing someone to do it, even then you would have to skype with them all so really back to it being a full time job. By that time odds are that you've been communicating with the girl long enough that she would expect you to just see her and for a good few days as well, particularly as you have been skyping. Most girls will expect this I have found (you don't need to be communicating long, just a couple of weeks or so if that) and then many will drop out if you try to explain that you are seeing many, making the job of lining up girls even more arduous. The only way to get around this would be to lie to the girl and say you are on an business trip but have a morning/afternoon off in which to meet. Though I am not at all into lying this I think would have to be a necessity here to make this at all feasible. After interviewing series of girls you would have to chose the one you most like/most chemistry with, etc. Further meeting could occur on another trip but probably not wise as another guy could get in their local or foreign. So a reason to her for you staying on longer than the business trip would have to be produced to her this could be easily explained, 'the business meet ended and you decided you liked her so much that you decided to miss the flight back and stay on longer to be with her'. This is great but of course the hope is she would be able to find at least a fair bit of time from her schedule to do likewise( weekends, evenings, sicky/day off from work), it would at least cement the relationship though.

So I guess its do able but major time investment is the main Achilles heel of an authoritative WMVM approach, firstly messaging, secondly skyping. That or just write to girls like I did and have have the situation I did on my second visit times 6,7,8, etc. and hope you luck out (unlikely but I guess happens to a few). Even this will take a lot of messaging to line up enough girls. The other issue is to get girls to all hold on long enough so they don't drop out for a WMVM approach, again a mjor time investment as no chosen girl can avoid to go cold to on the messaging front or they drop out, so say a week or so of non-comunication which can easily happen and it will damage the interest the girl is feeling from you and she'll go is what I have noticed.

Hence a WMVO approach tends to be the easiest of most of us that need to hold down a full time job, whilst trying to get to a level of depth with a girl where a trip to see her is a reasonable decision to make.  I've found during my search that so may girls get filtered out over the course of just a few weeks that it tends to go to a visit one by default to me not through my choice on taking a WMVO approach. WMVM would be a major time investment for me that I just don't have and going to see a load of girls that would have been filtered out at home through a too short a messaging period doesn't make sense to me after what I have experienced, although of course you might get on with a girl that you or she filtered out, but that is just pure chance. So, I guess I agree with you Faux Pas, a WMVO is probably the logical way to go about this search other wise its just pure chance with most probably many dead ends. That's what I make of it anyway at this point. 

[Patagonie]

Expecting to win the lottery is with even a truck load of tickets is a bit over optimistic wouldn't you think Patie? When I first started looking in 05-06 I thought most were going the VM route. To me it still appears to be true. Many guys started on a VM and eventually went VO and found success. I don't know of any that went the other way around. Personally, I wouldn't call 10 trips meeting 100 women and planning the next trip and next 10 women a success 5-10 years later, would you?

Sure there are plenty of guys that went the VO made the trip with high hopes, the relationship went tits up soon after. Some continued on, others by the wayside but, I'll still contend the success rate is about the same. That's based solely on a guess from peeps I know from the boards or personally. Nothing scientific but I would be really surprised if one proved more successful than the other.
IMHO, should one have their wit about them, not get themselves to high or excited over the prospects without realizing the woman is real and just like any other woman they know and treat the VO relationship and trip just as they do any other meeting with a native lady, it has the same possibilities to succeed or fail as any other relationship

Hi Faux Pas.
The logical process IMHO, if you visit many, is always if you find a good prospect is to make a VO trip to know if it works.
 If you are just lining up dozens or hundreds of girls in meeting it means that you have the candy store syndrom.
So we know that the first story is not necessary the one that will give you a wife. Time to know her real character, discover if she is weirdo or not, if you have common values and so on. Of course that takes some time.
If it doesn't work you have to restart.

I do agree that pretty difficult to assess the real rate success of the VO or VM. The men i met during my marriage time, married to FSU women, were more on a WMVO and ultimately a VO during the trip. It's difficult to know exactly what happens with them because a lot are not ready to tell you what they really did during their search. Generally they let you believe that they met their wife randomly if possible.

You are reasonable man FP, but many are not reasonable and twist their head as soon as they see a beautiful picture. And that's worse if they sat beside a hot lady. So reasonable men should date in FSU has they date local women, but that's not local women and many have already significant problems with local girls.

Many, who have the courage to make a trip, will be enough satisfied if they keep great memory and a photo spending two hours with a 9 at Odessa and could brag about it when they will be back in the US.
 We know that they have been scammed, but for them it's like climbing the Everest.
Many are enough satisfied with this great achievment. They did something that they thought impossible. Spending two hours with a model. It's like a travelling in  Concord or being the second crew member of a F14 Tomcat for one hour.
Don't laugh, that happens every day in FSU.

[Patagonie]

To my mind to get a string of girls lined up on WMVM to the same standard as a WMVO is nearly impossible. It would mean making writing to girls your full time job, or employing someone to do it, even then you would have to skype with them all so really back to it being a full time job. By that time odds are that you've been communicating with the girl long enough that she would expect you to just see her and for a good few days as well, particularly as you have been skyping. Most girls will expect this I have found (you don't need to be communicating long, just a couple of weeks or so if that) and then many will drop out if you try to explain that you are seeing many, making the job of lining up girls even more arduous. The only way to get around this would be to lie to the girl and say you are on an business trip but have a morning/afternoon off in which to meet. Though I am not at all into lying this I think would have to be a necessity here to make this at all feasible. After interviewing series of girls you would have to chose the one you most like/most chemistry with, etc. Further meeting could occur on another trip but probably not wise as another guy could get in their local or foreign. So a reason to her for you staying on longer than the business trip would have to be produced to her this could be easily explained, 'the business meet ended and you decided you liked her so much that you decided to miss the flight back and stay on longer to be with her'. This is great but of course the hope is she would be able to find at least a fair bit of time from her schedule to do likewise( weekends, evenings, sicky/day off from work), it would at least cement the relationship though.

So I guess its do able but major time investment is the main Achilles heel of an authoritative WMVM approach, firstly messaging, secondly skyping. That or just write to girls like I did and have have the situation I did on my second visit times 6,7,8, etc. and hope you luck out (unlikely but I guess happens to a few). Even this will take a lot of messaging to line up enough girls. The other issue is to get girls to all hold on long enough so they don't drop out for a WMVM approach, again a mjor time investment as no chosen girl can avoid to go cold to on the messaging front or they drop out, so say a week or so of non-comunication which can easily happen and it will damage the interest the girl is feeling from you and she'll go is what I have noticed.

Hence a WMVO approach tends to be the easiest of most of us that need to hold down a full time job, whilst trying to get to a level of depth with a girl where a trip to see her is a reasonable decision to make.  I've found during my search that so may girls get filtered out over the course of just a few weeks that it tends to go to a visit one by default to me not through my choice on taking a WMVO approach. WMVM would be a major time investment for me that I just don't have and going to see a load of girls that would have been filtered out at home through a too short a messaging period doesn't make sense to me after what I have experienced, although of course you might get on with a girl that you or she filtered out, but that is just pure chance. So, I guess I agree with you Faux Pas, a WMVO is probably the logical way to go about this search other wise its just pure chance with most probably many dead ends. That's what I make of it anyway at this point.

You make it quite complicated.

Choosing a city is not only choosing facilities (big airport, big city) it could be also the city were you can find good professionals (nice agencies, terps) who will facilitate your meetings. As a rule, with agencies, if you are not sure of their honesty 100% you have to shorten and shorten and shorten communication with their girls. And if you are sure just few messages exchanged are enough to check your basis and lets her know that you are really coming to meet her.

For the rest, just go on few good dating sites for a low cost and prepare a good profile and a good introduction letter. Send and send and send to any girls you like in this city your introduction letter. Don't worry at the end you will not have a lot. They are not supposed to be all interested in you

. At this time of communication you will find some scammers probably you have to sort out. But as the girls are living in the city and as you are supposed to be in the city the scam has only few reason to exist. It can exist if she want to come with her interpreter, want to go into some fancy restaurant, or ask you an incredible amount of money to come to the meeting.

-Normally as you have chosen the profiles by yourself, you have aleady selected the girls you could like.
Chemistry, common values, hearted person... Excuse me but if you want to figure out you have to spend a lot of time with her on skype to find it and so you land on a VO and anyways nothing prove that the chemistry will exist.
Feeling the chemistry, relying on your experience as a man and be attentive to what she lets you know is the purpose of the meetings. Therefore it will be time to explore each other and, as any affair that happens with local girls, it can fail or it can become a LTR and a marriage.
Any WMVO is intented to focus on good prospect(s) and figure out if they are marriage material

[treadmilldude]

Patagonie, what city in Ukraine did you meet your Wife / what city is she from? Was she a WMVM or a WOVO or a WMVO? I am assuming she was found on a WMVM trip, as this method is the one you endorse as the most efficacious for most Men.

Do you have a trip report here on RWD? I would love to read it if you do have one. You are an intelligent man with a lot of common sense. I have found guys with great common sense sometimes do better in life than guys with great book smarts but lacking in common sense. But usually guys with both do the best.

How many years have you been married to your Ukrainian Wife? Any Children? If not, are you two planning on having any Children in the near future? Thank you Pat.

[msmobyone]

I do agree that pretty difficult to assess the real rate success of the VO or VM. The men i met during my marriage time, married to FSU women, were more on a WMVO and ultimately a VO during the trip. It's difficult to know exactly what happens with them because a lot are not ready to tell you what they really did during their search.

Again, we can't prove this notion correct / incorrect - but in MY experience - reading how guys met their partner - more met - according to them on a VO ..... No shyness in how they met was detected in most cases...

Many, who have the courage to make a trip, will be enough satisfied if they keep great memory and a photo spending two hours with a 9 at Odessa and could brag about it when they will be back in the US.
 We know that they have been scammed, but for them it's like climbing the Everest.
Many are enough satisfied with this great achievment. They did something that they thought impossible. Spending two hours with a model. It's like a travelling in  Concord or being the second crew member of a F14 Tomcat for one hour.
Don't laugh, that happens every day in FSU.

Whilst that may be true for some ....'many' ? I don't think so ... Most guys who get on the plane -esp. those who learn something from their mistakes- understand they can raise their expectations.

That's why they do this insane why to meet a wife;)

[Patagonie]

Patagonie, what city in Ukraine did you meet your Wife / what city is she from? Was she a WMVM or a WOVO or a WMVO? I am assuming she was found on a WMVM trip, as this method is the one you endorse as the most efficacious for most Men.

Do you have a trip report here on RWD? I would love to read it if you do have one. You are an intelligent man with a lot of common sense. I have found guys with great common sense sometimes do better in life than guys with great book smarts but lacking in common sense. But usually guys with both do the best.

How many years have you been married to your Ukrainian Wife? Any Children? If not, are you two planning on having any Children in the near future? Thank you Pat.

Thank you for the compliment.

We have forgotten common sense in dating in the west for a large part. Many men will be happier if they were just relying on the facts rather than  keeping the nice guy demeanor learnt by their culture.
The game and the slavic culture totally reeducated me.
If you start to put again more common sense with women in your life it will improve.
You nailed it, if you are smart and have common sense the world is open for you.

I met her in Dnepr (old name Dnepropetrovsk) and we are married for more than 3 years. We live with her daughter.
I met her during a WNVM (write none visit many).
Unfortunately the agency i used is no longer existing. And to make it worse it was the only trustable agency in the city. An other one, Cindy agency was ok but they bailled out in 2011.
If one guy knows a realiable agency in Dnepr drop a message.
We are still in contact with the owner of the agency where we met and perhaps she will restart her business in the future, not sure.

You will find the trip report here, operation white panther:
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=13384.0

Have a nice day fellow

[Faux Pas]

Hi Faux Pas.
The logical process IMHO, if you visit many, is always if you find a good prospect is to make a VO trip to know if it works.
 If you are just lining up dozens or hundreds of girls in meeting it means that you have the candy store syndrom.
So we know that the first story is not necessary the one that will give you a wife. Time to know her real character, discover if she is weirdo or not, if you have common values and so on. Of course that takes some time.
If it doesn't work you have to restart.

Patie, to me IMHO it would be much more logical to vet possible mates before going to visit them. There is much more you can do to weed out any possible flakes and even to a large degree detect chemistry. I felt more comfortable doing that with communication for some was a week, some was several months before the red flag raised or the green light was go. The thought spending an hour over lunch or a different date every night for 10 nights, just didn't appeal to me. I dated multiple women and attractive women at home. I really love and appreciate beauty but not so much in awe of it. VM didn't appeal to me and I didn't want to spend all of my in-country time going out on dates. Walking around kicking tires and sniffing butts the entire trip isn't my idea of enjoyment. With that said, I get it, everyone isn't like me.

I do agree that pretty difficult to assess the real rate success of the VO or VM. The men i met during my marriage time, married to FSU women, were more on a WMVO and ultimately a VO during the trip. It's difficult to know exactly what happens with them because a lot are not ready to tell you what they really did during their search. Generally they let you believe that they met their wife randomly if possible.

I haven't gotten into this in a very long time but my opinion and experience is in the archives ad nausea. I was actually a WMVO. When I was in my search Skype was very new, just getting developed and not an option for most women. My communication started with email quickly moved to telephone and then a steady dose of both. It was a helluva lot of work and consumed too much of my evenings but I did it anyway and I found a women I "just had" to meet. There were no declarations of love from me or her. No promises of marrying and a life together. We were just 2 people who very much liked what we knew up to that point. There was nothing at all random about it. In fact it was very intentional on both of our parts. After 3 months of communication we made plans to meet.

You are reasonable man FP, but many are not reasonable and twist their head as soon as they see a beautiful picture. And that's worse if they sat beside a hot lady. So reasonable men should date in FSU has they date local women, but that's not local women and many have already significant problems with local girls.

Many, who have the courage to make a trip, will be enough satisfied if they keep great memory and a photo spending two hours with a 9 at Odessa and could brag about it when they will be back in the US.
 We know that they have been scammed, but for them it's like climbing the Everest.
Many are enough satisfied with this great achievment. They did something that they thought impossible. Spending two hours with a model. It's like a travelling in  Concord or being the second crew member of a F14 Tomcat for one hour.
Don't laugh, that happens every day in FSU.

Actually, I'm not laughing and agree with you 100% on this part. It's just more evidence that one size does not fit all. There was a local guy, one of my former drinking buddies that was enamoured with my wife. So much so he wanted me to help him find him an FSUW. I knew this guy's social set and I tried to dissuade him. He was a flop with women. I don't know why as he was a professional, not bad looking and well read. He'd had dates (not many that I knew of but some) but he never seemed to have 2nd dates. Maybe he was playing with his penis or trying to play with his dates, I don't know. My thinking was, if you can't date at home you probably won't do well in the FSU.

Anyway, I started talking to him and helping him in his search and directed him to Elena's. How to not get over whelmed, not fall in love with pictures and general mild coaching. He wasn't into it more than 3 weeks and told me he found her, she was the "one", he was ready to book his flight to Odessa. He did go, returned in love and destined to marry the girl. Prouder than a new mother. He sent her money how much I have no idea but she later called it off with him. He soon informed me he was thrilled with the experience but he is done with the FSU. It's a good thing as he had a penchant for not following good advice anyway. His company transferred him and he moved away soon after.

Just more proof that the endeavor isn't for everyone and as TooTall aptly points out and correctly so, there are 100's of ways to be successful and 1000's of ways to fcuk it up. Everyone has to do what works for them.

I also understand you and your wife have some skin in the game of WMVM guys. I would not dissuade anyone from seeking your services if they any way at all indicated they need them. Some guys need to WMVM some guys don't. From the results we have seen at RWD, neither is more productive than the other unless you really enjoy dating different women or enjoy the city that you are visiting IMHO

[Trenchcoat]

At this time of communication you will find some scammers probably you have to sort out. But as the girls are living in the city and as you are supposed to be in the city the scam has only few reason to exist. It can exist if she want to come with her interpreter, want to go into some fancy restaurant, or ask you an incredible amount of money to come to the meeting.

You forgot scammers on free or paid monthly sites that want to take you over to a PPL site so they can earn of the letter writing. Had a girl try this on me, We were writing to each other on Mamba, getting on quite well, normal letters and quite long on her part, she was claiming she was 23 I looked her up on VK and she was 19. If anyone recalls I was asking on here a few weeks ago 'what could a 19 yr old want with a guy in his late thirties?' Well I found out for the interest, she told me after a few letter exchanges that OMG my mother has spilled coffee over her laptop and it is now kaput, lol, but luckily she found an agency where she can communicate with me for free, for me though its PPL (she made out she was writing from a internet cafe) and she will see me there, I don't think. Just another scam out there, easy enough to spot but I guess it fools some guys as that's why she does it. She was real hot though, real racy pics on her VK profile, very vibrant looking girl, looks like she gets a bit of money from the business.
 

[Trenchcoat]

I met her in Dnepr (old name Dnepropetrovsk) and we are married for more than 3 years. We live with her daughter.
I met her during a WNVM (write none visit many).
Unfortunately the agency i used is no longer existing. And to make it worse it was the only trustable agency in the city.

You will find the trip report here, operation white panther:
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=13384.0

Will read the trip report when I can, but you state 'trustable agency' but they sent a married woman along to you to make up the numbers did they not? Worked out for you in the end as no one would have predicted that an insincere move on their/her part would turn good for you (and apparently her also). Essentially though you 'lucked out' in happening to stray across a girl you liked/was chemistry no doubt as she left her husband on a a WMVM situation. This is no doubt how it happens on the WMVM approach, some luck out, others, most perhaps, are more often out of luck, as Faux Pas points out this method for many can go on for years & years without fruitful success. To my mind it is like asking oneself, 'How many women in a population of a City would I have chemistry with?' If I were to go there I would likely stray across some of them, particularly if I stayed long enough. Picking them out through letter writing is very random (I've learnt photo's don't convey chemistry) though (telephone or Skype) may reduce this randomness, but I could quite easily bring up a lot of girl time & again that are not the ones I have chemistry with, I could miss the ones I have chemistry with time and again with the WMVM approach, unless I off course luck out. So essentially a WMVM approach would be like lucky dip I may eventually pull the prize out or I may keep pulling out the duds, for most men it appears from what FP says it is they just keep pulling out the duds, luck does not shine on them.

The choice then as I see it is play it on chance on a WMVM approach and enjoy the journey if that is the sort off journey you enjoy. For FP apparently that sort of journey did not appeal, or do the WMVO approach and enjoy one girl's company for the whole visit/holiday. Odds are on the WMVO option if you skyped a few types and she was thrilled that you were coming you will at least get someone near the mark, as I found no guarantees its someone on the mark where there is chemistry, she may just be a people meeting person, holiday whore, up for some foreigner to pay for her to eat out, or just as unaware as you are if there is any real chemistry.

I only meet one girl second trip but that was more of what could have amounted to  a visit many visit, a bit like speed dating, but the time lasting more like an hour or longer for each interview rather than the 3 min or whatever. Its ok, but your under your own steam a lot, 'driving the bus' (2tallbill's or BillyB term I can't remember which) probably not a real bad situation but meeting one girl after another that there is not a match for can no doubt be dispiriting at times until, if, you get to the right one. Smoother the other way, going out to meet a girl that you should at least get on well with as demonstrated through Skype sessions I guess, but having a good idea about back ups just in case. End of the day it whichever process suits, I think Faux Pas is right though in VO being the better path, not to say its guaranteed success but with skype these days its probably given this method the advantage and at least you'll likely meet a girl you can can along with.   

[Patagonie]

Will read the trip report when I can, but you state 'trustable agency' but they sent a married woman along to you to make up the numbers did they not? Worked out for you in the end as no one would have predicted that an insincere move on their/her part would turn good for you (and apparently her also). Essentially though you 'lucked out' in happening to stray across a girl you liked/was chemistry no doubt as she left her husband on a a WMVM situation. This is no doubt how it happens on the WMVM approach, some luck out, others, most perhaps, are more often out of luck, as Faux Pas points out this method for many can go on for years & years without fruitful success. To my mind it is like asking oneself, 'How many women in a population of a City would I have chemistry with?' If I were to go there I would likely stray across some of them, particularly if I stayed long enough. Picking them out through letter writing is very random (I've learnt photo's don't convey chemistry) though (telephone or Skype) may reduce this randomness, but I could quite easily bring up a lot of girl time & again that are not the ones I have chemistry with, I could miss the ones I have chemistry with time and again with the WMVM approach, unless I off course luck out. So essentially a WMVM approach would be like lucky dip I may eventually pull the prize out or I may keep pulling out the duds, for most men it appears from what FP says it is they just keep pulling out the duds, luck does not shine on them.

The choice then as I see it is play it on chance on a WMVM approach and enjoy the journey if that is the sort off journey you enjoy. For FP apparently that sort of journey did not appeal, or do the WMVO approach and enjoy one girl's company for the whole visit/holiday. Odds are on the WMVO option if you skyped a few types and she was thrilled that you were coming you will at least get someone near the mark, as I found no guarantees its someone on the mark where there is chemistry, she may just be a people meeting person, holiday whore, up for some foreigner to pay for her to eat out, or just as unaware as you are if there is any real chemistry.

I only meet one girl second trip but that was more of what could have amounted to  a visit many visit, a bit like speed dating, but the time lasting more like an hour or longer for each interview rather than the 3 min or whatever. Its ok, but your under your own steam a lot, 'driving the bus' (2tallbill's or BillyB term I can't remember which) probably not a real bad situation but meeting one girl after another that there is not a match for can no doubt be dispiriting at times until, if, you get to the right one. Smoother the other way, going out to meet a girl that you should at least get on well with as demonstrated through Skype sessions I guess, but having a good idea about back ups just in case. End of the day it whichever process suits, I think Faux Pas is right though in VO being the better path, not to say its guaranteed success but with skype these days its probably given this method the advantage and at least you'll likely meet a girl you can can along with.

I already wrote in a previous post that the agency was not aware of her private status.
Of course you need some luck, i consider myself as not lucky, i have been very rewarded but it was the result of a lot of  time, money and energy spent. However i enjoyed my time during the chase. But i really worked hard on this endeavor.
 
If a man is really uncomfortable while meeting many, like FP, it is best to skip it, as MSB said, if you are in Europe you can probably set up five trips per year or more, if you are totally invested to find an FSU woman. That's not so bad.

The winner will be always the guy who have the highest social skills. You can name him a playboy, a player, a naturel, an attractive man, the result is always the same. He will raise the bar and maximise the chemistry if he can pass the physical attraction woman test. Whatever he's doing, a VO or a VM, raising the chances to let her boiling inside is the best way to lower the risk of her not being interested (provided that the man also likes her). But the fact is that, as those guys has by definition easy on socials, they prefer to meet many, as women are everywhere and love can come from nowhere.

About skype i would never say that you can find chemistry via internet. Communication is at least half non verbal and skype is just narrowing it very badly. The last thing that men never speak about is the smell.
 Women pay a great attention on smell. For some if you don't smell right for them, you are done. I think that above the natural smell you have a sexual smell (this one is variable) absolutely readable by women. So you can do whatever you want on skype but your scorecard is only known after the REAL meeting.
If you show to a meeting and are confusing the woman between the scorecard you had had on skype and the non verbal language (as you are now in front of her and therefore cannot mislead her) that signs your real male identity, her interest (chemistry) will go down. When your mark is under her minimum recevable numeral, you are just dead, or become a friend. She can find many reason to keep on you for the rest of the trip.
 Slavic education for the guest, improving her english, don't feel guilty, meet your male friends later ... Who knows? you have fallen in the just lets to be friend.  The best, finally, is when she drops you like a hot patatoe, that's a little brutal but honest and it helps men to understand better.

[Trenchcoat]

I already wrote in a previous post that the agency was not aware of her private status.
Of course you need some luck, i consider myself as not lucky, i have been very rewarded but it was the result of a lot of  time, money and energy spent. However i enjoyed my time during the chase. But i really worked hard on this endeavor.

The winner will be always the guy who have the highest social skills. You can name him a playboy, a player, a naturel, an attractive man, the result is always the same. He will raise the bar and maximise the chemistry if he can pass the physical attraction woman test. Whatever he's doing, a VO or a VM, raising the chances to let her boiling inside is the best way to lower the risk of her not being interested (provided that the man also likes her). But the fact is that, as those guys has by definition easy on socials, they prefer to meet many, as women are everywhere and love can come from nowhere.

About skype i would never say that you can find chemistry via internet. Communication is at least half non verbal and skype is just narrowing it very badly. The last thing that men never speak about is the smell.
 Women pay a great attention on smell. For some if you don't smell right for them, you are done. I think that above the natural smell you have a sexual smell (this one is variable) absolutely readable by women. So you can do whatever you want on skype but your scorecard is only known after the REAL meeting.
If you show to a meeting and are confusing the woman between the scorecard you had had on skype and the non verbal language (as you are now in front of her and therefore cannot mislead her) that signs your real male identity, her interest (chemistry) will go down. When your mark is under her minimum recevable numeral, you are just dead, or become a friend. She can find many reason to keep on you for the rest of the trip.
 Slavic education for the guest, improving her english, don't feel guilty, meet your male friends later ... Who knows? you have fallen in the just lets to be friend.  The best, finally, is when she drops you like a hot patatoe, that's a little brutal but honest and it helps men to understand better.

Ok then, it was just her telling porkies The agency didn't know or are just pleading ignorance, lol.

These are some good points for all of us I think so worth highlighting in bold. You're right, chemistry is not just about eye contact which I often forget and indeed probably mislead myself when it occurs or looking for it. Eye contact may even be the end result of the right smells, what we see rather than the smells that are more subconscious. The right odours have been proven to be a big driving force in chemistry between man & women that we (or I at least) often forget as we do not see them, for the most part they are invisible.

Someone with high social skills often come tops, its something I wish I naturally had, but alas I do not. I'm pretty certain I'm not real awkward or anything but I just don't excel like some people do on the social front. Still though, it can be random, the socially skilled guy no doubt stands the best chance but it doesn't always ring true.He may be good socially, but not have his wits about him and pick up a scammer, he may be unlucky, etc. In the docu-film 'Love Me' one of the guys there was socially unskilled, had never had a real proper girlfriend at the age of 46, was tense and ill at ease during the socials, and didn't at all sound like he was good on the talking front, yet he met a girl, marriage, baby, etc. Though of course we don't know how things turned out after that, it looked like she was into him and we can only assume it was not just to get in the US, anchor baby, proof of relationship green card, etc.

[GuppyCaptain]

What Patagonie is referring to is pheromones and yes, they play a huge role in male/female integration, procreation and sexuality. You want proof? Have you ever met a girl that was a 9 but you just weren't that attracted to her or a woman that was a 7 but you HAD to have her?

This whole WMVM/WOVO/WMVO debate has gotten comical. I think everyone admits that chemistry can best be evaluated IN PERSON. Therefore what's the point in investing a lot of time in getting to know a woman through a WOVO strategy?! Personally, I'd rather minimally get to know 10 women via electronic correspondence and subsequently in person meeting than dedicating a lot of energy and time to someone who I spend a lot of time and energy corresponding with for months but yet still don't know if I'll have true chemistry with in person.

[Trenchcoat]

What Patagonie is referring to is pheromones and yes, they play a huge role in male/female integration, procreation and sexuality. You want proof? Have you ever met a girl that was a 9 but you just weren't that attracted to her or a woman that was a 7 but you HAD to have her?

This whole WMVM/WOVO/WMVO debate has gotten comical. I think everyone admits that chemistry can best be evaluated IN PERSON. Therefore what's the point in investing a lot of time in getting to know a woman through a WOVO strategy?! Personally, I'd rather minimally get to know 10 women via electronic correspondence and subsequently in person meeting than dedicating a lot of energy and time to someone who I spend a lot of time and energy corresponding with for months but yet still don't know if I'll have true chemistry with in person.

Yeah, for sure, I've had it plenty of time where I've been out & about and seen a real attractive looking girl, easily a 9 but had no chemistry for hence no point even contemplating an approach.

I think your right in that we can all agree on chemistry being best evaluated in person. Very rare we all agree on something in this forum, lol. Course the others still have to respond if they differ. IDK though that this places a WMVM in a superior position. Iv'e been to four speed dating sessions in my time with approximately 20 girls each time, hit a big fat 0 every time and from what I hear most other blokes do as well. Ok you could argue the dynamics, etc, but I think the point holds true that meeting even 7 or 8 girls a time is all to often too small a number to likely stand a chance of finding that one with the chemistry. It occasionally happens as we have seen on here but its a bit like buying a load of lottery scratch cards, all too often they all end up turning up no winnings just the same as if you just bought one. Try it if you wish, a bit like my last attempt when a load of people on here were telling me its not a great course of action, they were right it wasn't but I learnt something out of the situation. If you learn something too if it does not work out then its not a complete loss, but hey who knows you might be right.

I for one am more coming round to the idea of going out there for at least a month, if I'm not happy with the city I choose I can move to another. More importantly though I'll be able to call up a lot more women while out there through the dating sites (hopefully). Also, I'll be mixing with women IN PERSON so the chemistry will be a lot more apparent. For the serious guy I am coming around to thinking this is the only way, messing about with a week or so here or there with flying visits is undermining the search in the long term, ok for the first visit or two but I think is a false economy in the long run. Better I think to get it all done a lot quicker in the long run by spending more time upfront. That's my thoughts at the moment anyway.

[LAman]

Yeah, for sure, I've had it plenty of time where I've been out & about and seen a real attractive looking girl, easily a 9 but had no chemistry chance for hence no point even contemplating an approach.

 

There, corrected it for you. ( Lets be truthful)

[LAman]

I for one am more coming round to the idea of going out there for at least a month, if I'm not happy with the city I choose I can move to another. More importantly though I'll be able to call up a lot more women while out there through the dating sites (hopefully). Also, I'll be mixing with women IN PERSON so the chemistry will be a lot more apparent. For the serious guy I am coming around to thinking this is the only way, messing about with a week or so here or there with flying visits is undermining the search in the long term, ok for the first visit or two but I think is a false economy in the long run. Better I think to get it all done a lot quicker in the long run by spending more time upfront. That's my thoughts at the moment anyway.

I hope you give lot of thought to your idea. On the surface it seems sound but in reality you will hit plenty of bumps. Great idea if you want to immerse yourself into a culture but language will be a big problem. Guys here tell you to just talk with the women, get numbers and go on dates. Not that many speak English and fewer speak enough to have any kind of pleasant conversation. If you need to look up a word or two in every sentence to communicate, there is no flow to any conversation. And I am talking about the big cities.

[Anotherkiwi]

I hope you give lot of thought to your idea. On the surface it seems sound but in reality you will hit plenty of bumps. Great idea if you want to immerse yourself into a culture but language will be a big problem. Guys here tell you to just talk with the women, get numbers and go on dates. Not that many speak English and fewer speak enough to have any kind of pleasant conversation. If you need to look up a word or two in every sentence to communicate, there is no flow to any conversation. And I am talking about the big cities.

Although I agree with your premise in general terms, English has been part of the school curriculum in Russia and Ukraine for quite a few years now, so I imagine that there are plenty of women out there who do speak English at a much better level than "where is the pen of my aunt?" or (my favourite French primer as a kid) "There is a dragon in my bed!"  The difference, of course, is that most get absolutely no chance to practise after leaving school, so their reactions to Trenchcoat will vary from "wow, a foreigner! I'd better keep away because my English is bad!" to "wow, a foreigner! He's cute - I wonder if our pheromones can talk to each other?"

Although the two women that I visited as WOVOs had very different levels of English (1-2 on the first trip, 5-6 on the second), I still met others whose English was close to 10/10.  Rest assured, there are plenty out there - it's simply a case of finding enough of them (especially if you're limiting yourself to a WMVM visit to one city) to make a trip worthwhile.

Heck, if you want to guarantee that their English is good, simply search amongst the interpreters.  There should be enough who are single to be a starting point for your search. 

[Patagonie]

Yeah, for sure, I've had it plenty of time where I've been out & about and seen a real attractive looking girl, easily a 9 but had no chemistry for hence no point even contemplating an approach.

I think your right in that we can all agree on chemistry being best evaluated in person. Very rare we all agree on something in this forum, lol. Course the others still have to respond if they differ. IDK though that this places a WMVM in a superior position. Iv'e been to four speed dating sessions in my time with approximately 20 girls each time, hit a big fat 0 every time and from what I hear most other blokes do as well. Ok you could argue the dynamics, etc, but I think the point holds true that meeting even 7 or 8 girls a time is all to often too small a number to likely stand a chance of finding that one with the chemistry. It occasionally happens as we have seen on here but its a bit like buying a load of lottery scratch cards, all too often they all end up turning up no winnings just the same as if you just bought one. Try it if you wish, a bit like my last attempt when a load of people on here were telling me its not a great course of action, they were right it wasn't but I learnt something out of the situation. If you learn something too if it does not work out then its not a complete loss, but hey who knows you might be right.

I for one am more coming round to the idea of going out there for at least a month, if I'm not happy with the city I choose I can move to another. More importantly though I'll be able to call up a lot more women while out there through the dating sites (hopefully). Also, I'll be mixing with women IN PERSON so the chemistry will be a lot more apparent. For the serious guy I am coming around to thinking this is the only way, messing about with a week or so here or there with flying visits is undermining the search in the long term, ok for the first visit or two but I think is a false economy in the long run. Better I think to get it all done a lot quicker in the long run by spending more time upfront. That's my thoughts at the moment anyway.

Sorry but i had quite different results in speed dating sessions.
I don't remember exactly but my rate was something like 2 for 20. So i think that studying and practicing the art of seduction will help you to improve your scorecard. The first step you have to do is to ask their mobile number (but that's not so easy  ). Really if you cannot get few phone numbers on 80 meetings there is a problem IMHO. YOu need to improve something. And it's mainly about how you interact with girls (you can additionnaly go to the gym, get dressed better ...).
With all your respect how do you analyse this 80 meetings and zero at the end. ANd i absolutely believe you when you wrote that it was the same for many blokes. So, are men "ecucated", "skilled", "gifted", to success with women ?