EU Issues

[msmob]

I'd like to ask those in the UK
why is there such a strong anti Polish sentiment in the UK?
I don't get it, is it a job competition thing, a cultural thing?

1/ Ignorance

2/ Racists

3/ Lazy gits who were undercut by smarter, harder working and more conscientious E.Europeans

Here's an example, below:

krimster2 when Polish citizens were allowed to move about the EU the average Brit knew that lots of Poles would move to the UK. It made sense. Poles could earn lots more in the UK and benefits available were very good compared to what they received back in Poland.

WRONG: Britain invoked an EU rule that permitted Poles ( and other new E.European countries)  to come - and work - only if they had WORK permits - for SEVEN years... NO easy access to benefits - That is a total fallacy - same rule applied
 to Romanian and and Bulgarian citizens - whose restrictions ended 3 years later

David Cameron had negotiated a EU derogation to ensure no easy resort to 'public funds' for 2 years.

As it was, it is IMPOSSIBLE for a single EU person to get benefits - unless they had worked / non been a burden on the state whilst resident

I KNOW this because I know a Lithuanian ( eth RU ) lady who lived with a Brit, split and had no recourse to Public Funds - even though she had been resident over five years...

Such stories of big benefits are perpetrated for the benefit of non-too-clued up Brits - who voted 'Brexit' ...I'm surprised  you repeat such tripe

The UK government on the other hand said at most a few 10,000s would come to the UK. 800,000 Poles arrived in 12 years between 2004 and 2016. That's why many Brits dislike Poles. They were blatantly lied to by their government and the current government government just shrugs and continues to lie about immigration to the UK.

Hmm, the then Labour govt paid for a report on expected numbers and based on the 'work permit' condition - they VASTLY underestimated that UK employers would welcome harder working, more reliable and intelligent workers

The current govt -  follows a govt that was pro EU  - it's the same Political Party - just has different ministers - but ensured the seven year 'work permit to work' rule.  Anyone saying they 'did nothing' to cut immigration must believe UKIP bollox - as it turns out the PM - as Home Sec oversaw all sorts of dodgy stunts to try to cut immigration...  The new Home Sec fell on her sword - to protect the PM - but we now know our PM will sit on the fence and allow others to take a fall - rather than own a howler

msmob keeps repeating how Poles are leaving the UK for Poland. That's true a few thousand are returning to Poland. Lots of articles about it but few if any of the articles mention how many. By no stretch of the imagination are 800,000 Poles going to return to Poland. At best 25,000 or 30,000, 50,000 at most IMO. We'll know in a few years when new immigration numbers come out.

Sighs, it's too early to know - hence your figures are BULL 'IMHO' 

IF they came here for economic stability and better money - then the conditions have changed and Germany and 'home' offer more prospects than 'my' country

[Trenchcoat]

Hardly.. then can catch up their UK Nat.Insurance contributions ..or receive a lower UK pension and receive a small German one..

Boy, this IS tosh...Trench, not for the first time posts a 'theory' with no practical experience..

As you know I lived and worked in a Euroland nation and the above is nonsense.... A GBP was worth 1.5 dollars in June 2016 and 1.3 Euros... The costs of living went up in the UK as the Pound dropped in value. But suggesting a Euro being worth less means a worse std of living is bollox.

Living in Limassol, Cyprus costed less and my standard of living was BETTER.


More tripe... Check out 'PIGS' or later PIIGS, Trench.. that's Portugal, Italy ( laterly Ireland) Greece and Spain

Cyprus had a pretty stable economy..The CY pound was 'worth' more than a GBP ( going by the Trench std of economic compassion)


For sure, the stringent stds required to join Euroland were either not adhered to or fibbed about to get in...Enlargement was the aim..  For all the differing economies / problems the Euro has appreciated against the Dollar / Pound, Trenchie...go figure

The Poles are leaving the UK for home and along with most Euroland economies is out performing the UK..

May be you should get 'on your bike' (?)as Norman Tebbitt said to lazy moaners....

Well Mobers to answer your questions, yes there is a limited time to pay for the missed years NI contributions but unless your a high earner you are likely to be paying more than you normally would. Whether you qualify for any other pension would depend on their rules and whether they change over time.

Anyway, the reason most Euroland economies are outperforming the UK is because they are sucking the lifeblood out of the UK like a parasite Even the pro-EU George Soros in this article:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44292870

...states the big and therefore "hard to fill" hole in EU budget. Its because we are funding a lot of East European re-construction & modernization, they couldn't do it otherwise, the money is being robbed from Britain in the form of EU membership fees, slapped with the EU Money Label and given to projects in Poland. In reality the projects its funded in Poland, etc should have a sign saying funded by the UK taxpayer not funded by the EU, its a damn cheek, we get robbed the EU takes the glory.

When we leave the EU you watch the reversal in fortunes for these Eastern Bloc Countries, Germany is already tied up with bailing out Greece, etc, no that they appreciate it. They will essentially be no more money funding these projects and their economies will slump. Ours will be released from the heavy weight of EU membership that is dragging it down. If other countries such as Italy follow suit and I think they will we soon won't have to worry about the EU trying to hold us to ransom every which way they see. Giving the EU so much power & control was a mistake, now they daily try and bully us with it into backing down and staying in the EU against the will of the people.

Again the George Soros states that opinion polls to leave the EU have not changed significantly since the referendum, that it is basically the same as at the referendum. This is further evidence to show there is deep rooted support to leave the EU and the democratic mandate to leave the EU remains.

Even George Soros states, "The 2008 financial crisis and the huge influx of refugees in 2015 had led many young people to regard the EU as an enemy that has deprived them of jobs and a secure and promising future". So you see Mobe even he a pro-remainer sees many of the young voted to leave with good reason. The problem with Soros is that he has found all of this out (he has billions to do so) yet he still is only interested in seeing it from his own position as a rich guy. He like many remainers think the UK should be forced against its will to stay in the EU and against the UK electoral mandate. That's like trying to bolt the door after the horse has bolted, the British electorate who voted Leave won't stand for it. Essentially you can't admit to the failings of the EU as Soros does then claim its a failing the UK should be part of, its laughable.

Anyone remember the ERM? Lol, another EU disaster that hit the UK economy severely, Soros did well out of it though, so can we trust that man? I think not.

As far as Poles leaving, many have been leaving, but more at every counting period have been coming in than leaving. Its clear as day in the official statistics so there is little to argue over. There has been a decline in the numbers coming to the UK but that number still exceeds those leaving the UK in the same period of counting, at each period of counting. Poles don't do as well as before the referendum to leave the EU because our currency has fallen a little against there's (2016 rougly 6PLN to the Pound, now its roughly 5PLN, but in 2014 it was only 5PLN also, so really affected that much?) but they still do well enough to keep coming here.

I think a large number of Poles will go for Dual Citizenship of both country's. They will want to keep earning good money here and send/live better on it back home. The main deal is we will have resisted loads more coming and swamping us here, with have a housing crises after all. It makes economic sense for a Pole to go for Dual Citizen, I would do in their shoes, nearly all of them will no doubt think with their head (or wallet) and not their heart and go for Dual Citizenship.

Over the years & decades to come though the access of further Poles being able to come to the UK will very likely slow. Whether this will have an impact on Ukrainians illegally working in Poland will have to remain to be seen. I personally think that the EU held off taking in all off the East European countries, bar Russia in one go as our money did not stretch that far to try and sort them out all at once. Also of course they were weak as they did not wish to upset Russia/Yeltsin. I think with the lack of money when the UK leaves the EU may not admit Ukraine. I personally think the EU should have put aside its grand schemes and admitted all the Eastern European nations, bar Russia as second tier members with no freedom of movement to first tier members and set its sights on more achievable less lofty goals but unfortunately the EU is driven by ego manics and all sense went out the window.

[msmob]

So you take an article written by an anti Brexit journalist who interviewed a few anti Brexit Poles and submit it here as proof that the economic situation in the UK is dire due to Brexit. Let's stick with facts, not opinions. The sky is not falling in the UK due to Brexit.

Duh,

The first article I posted was from 'The Sun' - a pro Brexit 'comic' that some call a 'newspaper'

Do you dispute the UK Nat Stats office re my economic data ?

As for numbers leaving - the UK has it's next census in 3 years - we'll have to wait 'til then to know who's right ...

In the meantime, how many  Poles that live / lived in the UK do you know ..?   

As for 'The Sky is no falling in' ..Indeed ?  You missed the Bank of England ( like the Fed) chief report that his forecasts - ( made Pre Brexit) were wrong DUE TO THE UNCERTAINTY of 'Brexit' and that Families were £900 / year worse off

[Trenchcoat]

Notice Moby didn't respond to anything I said in my last comment as of course it is all factually correct.

Well the Governor of the Bank of England is pro-remain, a Canadian who came in before the referendum. I don't think he is very competent, I think he happened to be sitting around when the Canadian economy was doing well and took a lot of the credit. Since gaining the Governor position here he has repeatedly cited a need to raise interest rates for many years but has been made to look foolish when economic data proved there was no need, like recently when he wanted to raise interest rates in may but then inflation rate fell for two consecutive months, lol. He had no choice other than to back down,  the man's a fool and a menact to the British economy, would be best if he went.

Mark Carney has also made repeated scare mongering statements about Brexit, most if not all have proved entirely false. Any falls on the value of the pound was not helped by his opening and closing of his mouth. Most pro-leave like myself essentially want him to go and be replaced by someone more on board with the whole Brexit process.

Well anyway Mobe, just 9 Months now until we leave the EU Not long now!!!

[BillyB]

As for numbers leaving - the UK has it's next census in 3 years - we'll have to wait 'til then to know who's right ...

You talk to people as if they're ignorant but you can't find anything on the internet to back your claims. You talk as if you're right and now you say we got to wait three years to know who's right.

[msmob]

Well Mobers to answer your questions, yes there is a limited time to pay for the missed years NI contributions but unless your a high earner you are likely to be paying more than you normally would. Whether you qualify for any other pension would depend on their rules and whether they change over time.

Again, you post like someone who hasn't been in the situation to know ... addressing someone who has and DOES ..  You really love walking onto punches ..

Anyway, the reason most Euroland economies are outperforming the UK is because they are sucking the lifeblood out of the UK like a parasite Even the pro-EU George Soros in this article:

No...  You can't have read you own link - he mentions NOTHING in the context you suggest 

FACT: 'Brexit' uncertainty is holding UK PLC back ...   No my works - it's the BoE chief's

Germany is doing just fine and it is a net contributor to the EU - a daft Trench 'excuse' blown apart and busted with ease ....'

When we leave the EU you watch the reversal in fortunes for these Eastern Bloc Countries, Germany is already tied up with bailing out Greece, etc, no that they appreciate it. They will essentially be no more money funding these projects and their economies will slump. Ours will be released from the heavy weight of EU membership that is dragging it down. If other countries such as Italy follow suit and I think they will we soon won't have to worry about the EU trying to hold us to ransom every which way they see. Giving the EU so much power & control was a mistake, now they daily try and bully us with it into backing down and staying in the EU against the will of the people.

As I said Germany isn't 'suffering'  - 'WE' in the UK are - because of the 'Brexit vote' and we haven't even left yet and the 'savings' we were supposed to make are 5 times more in losses already

Just heard a TORY MP - ex Doctor saying that we need 'a few pence' on income tax to support the standard of NHS we expect

Again the George Soros states that opinion polls to leave the EU have not changed significantly since the referendum, that it is basically the same as at the referendum. This is further evidence to show there is deep rooted support to leave the EU and the democratic mandate to leave the EU remains.

No...once again you don't pay attention ...  these were other polls ...  Frankly, the members of MY family who voted leave now admit they made a howler

Even George Soros states, "The 2008 financial crisis and the huge influx of refugees in 2015 had led many young people to regard the EU as an enemy that has deprived them of jobs and a secure and promising future". So you see Mobe even he a pro-remainer sees many of the young voted to leave with good reason. The problem with Soros

Soros is referring to his native Hungary... HOW MANY times ?  The UK opted out of the Directive to share the refugee load... It is a non - issue for the UK 

Essentially you can't admit to the failings of the EU as Soros does then claim its a failing the UK should be part of, its laughable.

You NEVER deal with facts that bust your bollox and once again - we see you tried to twist the 'words' of someone without checking fact ...

Anyone remember the ERM? Lol, another EU disaster that hit the UK economy severely, Soros did well out of it though, so can we trust that man? I think not.

The ERM was a disaster for the UK and why we didn't join the Euro ... you know the currency that despite many trials has appreciated against the Pound ....

As far as Poles leaving, many have been leaving, but more at every counting period have been coming in than leaving.

I believe you'll find that is bollox - based on NI numbers being issued - MORE Trench bollox

Its clear as day in the official statistics so there is little to argue over.

It's as clear as day that you can't even use stats to support your case ...

There has been a decline in the numbers coming to the UK but that number still exceeds those leaving the UK in the same period of counting, at each period of counting.

Also untrue ...  You may be getting Poles confused with Bulgarians and Romanians, now ....

Poles don't do as well as before the referendum to leave the EU because our currency has fallen a little against there's (2016 rougly 6PLN to the Pound, now its roughly 5PLN, but in 2014 it was only 5PLN also, so really affected that much?) but they still do well enough to keep coming here.

Except that they are - overall leaving - you just can't read stats ..  Bearing in mind that's a 20 percent difference and Poland's ( like other EU economies )  has been expanding FAR quicker than the UK's  - it would make sense that Poles would be leaving - if economic migration is the key

I think a large number of Poles will go for Dual Citizenship of both country's. They will want to keep earning good money here and send/live better on it back home. The main deal is we will have resisted loads more coming and swamping us here, with have a housing crises after all. It makes economic sense for a Pole to go for Dual Citizen, I would do in their shoes, nearly all of them will no doubt think with their head (or wallet) and not their heart and go for Dual Citizenship.

Ho ARE we 'resisting' seeing there is NO change to their fights to freedom of movement until at least another 1.5 years ... WHERE do you make up your twaddle ?   

Those that will have been here five years and not been a burden on UK PLC can stay - no problem ...     You have never done an application for an EU citizen / or their non EU spouse / family members to remain here - THAT IS FOR SURE ...

I speak from experience - you are posting TWADDLE

Over the years & decades to come though the access of further Poles being able to come to the UK will very likely slow. Whether this will have an impact on Ukrainians illegally working in Poland will have to remain to be seen. I personally think that the EU held off taking in all off the East European countries, bar Russia in one go as our money did not stretch that far to try and sort them out all at once. Also of course they were weak as they did not wish to upset Russia/Yeltsin. I think with the lack of money when the UK leaves the EU may not admit Ukraine. I personally think the EU should have put aside its grand schemes and admitted all the Eastern European nations, bar Russia as second tier members with no freedom of movement to first tier members and set its sights on more achievable less lofty goals but unfortunately the EU is driven by ego manics and all sense went out the window.

Sighs, the volume of bollox just ever flows ..

1/ Ukraine is NOT an EU member -- it has a LOT of sorting out to do before completing the Chapters to accede to membership

So, we now see Trench know nothing about EU accession, either ... You forget I lived in a nation that had to go through the process ..so ONCE AGAIN - I can spot Trench BS ... YOU never lived through such a process

2/ Russia .. has never shown a sign of wishing to join - preferring her dream of a Commonwealth of  States - incl Ukraine

It's Friday night, Trench ... you REALLY need to find a friend - rather than posting tripe

[Trenchcoat]

Well, I'm not a party guy so I don't hinge everything on a Friday or Saturday night.

Fact of the matter is if we joined the Euro we would have been drawn into the Greek Financial crises and would have had to waste UK taxpayers money to bail them out - money which would never be seen again. The Greek crises exposed a crucial flaw in the Euro that to use it in a decentralized manner for many nations it does not suit the economic circumstances of all nations.

I would not buy Euro's, I get the feeling that a big crises could be just around the corner which hits it real bad and will make this currency worth way less. Italy is just the start, there is also Spain, Greece hasn't gone away as a problem then probably France. Other EU nations may well follow.

When I go away on my trip shortly I will be paying in GBP a currency you can bank on I see this currency as obtaining a big rerate back upwards post Brexit.

In the future I think you will become grateful that we kept the pound and left the EU Mobe, particularly when EU Europe descends into chaos and economic turmoil.

[msmob]

OK, so not a single  riposte to my busting your previous 'contentions' - not that their could be one

What we have is a suggestion that we (UK )might be better off out of the Euro - we might ..  but currently the EU is outperforming the UK economy - as are most western economies... 

[Trenchcoat]

Well when we leave the EU in about 9 Months time it should at lest take us out off this trade war which has just started kicking off between the US and the EU. See how much better our economy does than the EU by being out of that one

[msmob]

Well when we leave the EU in about 9 Months time it should at lest take us out off this trade war which has just started kicking off between the US and the EU. See how much better our economy does than the EU by being out of that one

1/ How DO you figure the little 'ol UK is going to benefit from the Emperor with no Clothes smiling benevolently upon us ?  Try to THINK before responding ..

2/ Leaving the EU - in case you missed it will change v.little as nought has been agreed - things will carry on as before

3/ So, you STILL duck our crap recovery - compared to the EU members and other western states and have some blind faith that 'we' can negotiate trade deals that normally take 10 years ? What IS it with daft people who voted ' Brexit' ?  Can't they see we are already considerably worse of ... that it was ALL so predictable ?

'We' are going to be a tiny island that imports nearly everything and cannot even compete in the financial service sector - unless we become a dodgy tax haven

[Trenchcoat]

Mobe, the 'crap' recovery as you state it is not necessarily so. Each .1 percent growth is more to an advanced economy such as ours than a poorer economy such as Greece. You are misrepresenting the economic situation. Our unemployment is low compared to the likes of Italy & Spain, and it haS been falling. Our inflation & interest rates are low. There are one or two things to work on a big but overall we are doing well enough but more importantly stable enough.

The trade war with the US is one of the areas which demonstrate how we will be more versatile post Brexit. I'lld wager that if the UK was already out of the EU, Trump would have passed us over on the tariffs. Essentially it would not have been worth his while, that and he sees the use of having the UK onside to the US.

Problem is with being part of the EU amount many is that we get too caught up in all these EU problems. The EU does indeed seem problem prone and ineffective at dealing with them when they occur.

[msmob]

Mobe, the 'crap' recovery as you state it is not necessarily so. Each .1 percent growth is more to an advanced economy such as ours than a poorer economy such as Greece. You are misrepresenting the economic situation. Our unemployment is low compared to the likes of Italy & Spain, and it haS been falling. Our inflation & interest rates are low. There are one or two things to work on a big but overall we are doing well enough but more importantly stable enough.

The trade war with the US is one of the areas which demonstrate how we will be more versatile post Brexit. I'lld wager that if the UK was already out of the EU, Trump would have passed us over on the tariffs. Essentially it would not have been worth his while, that and he sees the use of having the UK onside to the US.

Problem is with being part of the EU amount many is that we get too caught up in all these EU problems. The EU does indeed seem problem prone and ineffective at dealing with them when they occur.

Once again, you respond proving you haven't a scoobie do what you are talking about

So, you STILL think that Trump would single 'us' out - even though he is ( for example) shafting Canada ?

Greece, Spain. Italy ARE full members of the EU and their economies ARE  recovering faster than ours .  THe problems they have ( large numbers of migrants ) were not and are not ours - due to opt outs LONG since agreed

Once again - you brought up many 'mistakes' of the Federalist EU and drop 'em when I point out the reality ..(.e.g ERM)

When we you offer up something that isn't a doddle to bust ? 

[Trenchcoat]

Once again, you respond proving you haven't a scoobie do what you are talking about

So, you STILL think that Trump would single 'us' out - even though he is ( for example) shafting Canada ?

Greece, Spain. Italy ARE full members of the EU and their economies ARE  recovering faster than ours .  THe problems they have ( large numbers of migrants ) were not and are not ours - due to opt outs LONG since agreed

Once again - you brought up many 'mistakes' of the Federalist EU and drop 'em when I point out the reality ..(.e.g ERM)

When we you offer up something that isn't a doddle to bust ?

Italy, Greece & Spain may be recovering faster than ours as you put it because their economy was hit way harder than ours. Overall we are doing way better than them, we importantly have lower unemployment figures, low inflation and low interest rates. Ukraine no doubt marvels at out economic figures compared to theirs.

Compared to Canada we are a small island and not on America's backyard or doorstep, Trump sees us as less of a threat, a potential partner with which to do business with. Trump also likes Britain. Most of the alienation Americans have come from too much competition from the likes of China, Canada, etc not from Britain.

Mobes face it your soon not going to be able to recruit sweat shop labour no more. You may have to actually have to do some real work yourself instead of living of the backs of East European labour.

The constant arguing from remoaners such as yourself has actually helped our cause. Now because of it people have been wound up into becoming entrenched in their decision to vote for what they voted for in the referendum. So as the article pointed out that essentially remains 52 percent for Leave & 48 percent for Remain - looks like we still win even today

[msmob]

Italy, Greece & Spain may be recovering faster than ours as you put it because their economy was hit way harder than ours. Overall we are doing way better than them, we importantly have lower unemployment figures, low inflation and low interest rates. Ukraine no doubt marvels at out economic figures compared to theirs.

Tosh...   They didn't have so many families buying their homes on credit  - for one..

Please explain why the USA, Australia, Canada, Germany, are all showing us the way - when 'WE' were showing them the way before the suicidal 'Brexit' vote ?

Compared to Canada we are a small island and not on America's backyard or doorstep, Trump sees us as less of a threat, a potential partner with which to do business with. Trump also likes Britain. Most of the alienation Americans have come from too much competition from the likes of China, Canada, etc not from Britain.

You really do post bollox, whilst not helping your 'case' ..

Mobes face it your soon not going to be able to recruit sweat shop labour no more. You may have to actually have to do some real work yourself instead of living of the backs of East European labour.

Not that I ever have. ( employed folk for shyte pay.) .. Just another Trench 'let's make it up as I go along'...    This is the level of'riposte' you're reduced to ?

The constant arguing from remoaners such as yourself has actually helped our cause. Now because of it people have been wound up into becoming entrenched in their decision to vote for what they voted for in the referendum. So as the article pointed out that essentially remains 52 percent for Leave & 48 percent for Remain - looks like we still win even today

Trench, my kids will ensure UK PLC is back in ...  giving some time in the wilderness ..the EU made it clear we can rejoin

[msmob]

Well now, Trench

Poor 'ol Mrs May and her Brexiteers are busy fighting it out and have come up with a 'proposal' to 'ensure' no hard border with the EU member Rep of Ireland .... but STILL - like you - don't get it ...

"In Brussels, the view is that the UK government is "still talking to itself", said BBC Europe editor Katya Adler. "While it's doing that it's not coming here with a unified position."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44391539

Her Majesty's Govt. is NOT trusted on this issue - as it KEEPS trying to fob off on crunch deadlines - but as I KEEP telling you - this is the crunch issue

ALL Mrs May is doing is pushing back the date when the house of cards will come crashing down

Meanwhile - despite the best attempts of the  'promise much - but impossible to deliver popularists in Italy -  the Euro is up against the GBP and Dollar ...

[Trenchcoat]

Well what did I say about how the EU withdrawal vote would go down, eh Mobe what did I say

That the Labour (Leave) rebels would cancel out the Tory (Remain) rebels and the government WOULD get enough votes to vote down the Lords amendment to compel the UK to take steps to join/remain in a Customs Union (EEA) with the EU. The government also essentially voted down all the other Lords amendments without having to rely on the DUP

What I didn't predict and took even me by surprise was the hugh Labour Rebellion that sided with the government over the Customs Union (EEA) vote. It went beyond the handfull of just a few Labour (Leave) Rebels that I expected and no doubt many others, other than Mobe. It dwarfed the number of potential Tory (Remain) rebels and amounted to a complete collapse in Remain support in Labour and in the House of Commons in general

It means with little support for a Customs Union remaining in the House of Commons the House of Lords and the EU will now have to accept that their cause to force the UK back into the Customs Union as a hopeless battle and one which they have lost

[msmob]

You talk to people as if they're ignorant but you can't find anything on the internet to back your claims. You talk as if you're right and now you say we got to wait three years to know who's right.

1/ if the cap fits, BillyB

2/ In the meantime, if you can find something from a recognised UK authority on demographics, welcome.

There's a chlenge for you..

BTW, still waiting for you to counter the skeptical scientists many counters to 'there's no evidence of global warming'

[msmob]

Well what did I say about how the EU withdrawal vote would go down, eh Mobe what did I say

Mrs May had to make concessions to win and ALL she has done has put off the showdown

http://news.sky.com/story/government-avoids-eu-withdrawal-bill-defeat-after-last-ditch-deal-on-meaningful-vote-11403025

That the Labour (Leave) rebels would cancel out the Tory (Remain) rebels and the government WOULD get enough votes to vote down the Lords amendment to compel the UK to take steps to join/remain in a Customs Union (EEA) with the EU. The government also essentially voted down all the other Lords amendments without having to rely on the DUP

What I didn't predict and took even me by surprise was the hugh Labour Rebellion that sided with the government over the Customs Union (EEA) vote. It went beyond the handfull of just a few Labour (Leave) Rebels that I expected and no doubt many others, other than Mobe. It dwarfed the number of potential Tory (Remain) rebels and amounted to a complete collapse in Remain support in Labour and in the House of Commons in general

It means with little support for a Customs Union remaining in the House of Commons the House of Lords and the EU will now have to accept that their cause to force the UK back into the Customs Union as a hopeless battle and one which they have lost

Trench - like dating - you read things VERY badly

ALL Mrs May has done has put off THE DAY ..

The key is was and will be the border Q ...

I do not agree with a 'Norway' EEA -style agreement - obeying the rules of a club - but not influencing the the rules by being sat at the table is ridiculous

As for your arithmetic... tell us what would have happened if the DUP and 2 more Tories voted against the govt ?

Many 'Rebels' have made it clear they only saved the govt - as they had received assurances

"In a sign that the government saw the prospect of defeat looming, the solicitor general, Robert Buckland, intervened from the front bench, saying there was “much merit” to parts of the compromise amendment.

Shortly afterwards, the former attorney general left the chamber, later joined by the bulk of the remain rebels, who had been sitting together in a corner of the Commons, raising speculation they had been offered a last-minute compromise.

After the vote, Grieve told the Guardian: “I am very pleased that the government has listened to the concerns of many colleagues and has responded positively to the need to amend the bill further to provide a proper mechanism to enable parliament to act, where necessary, if there is no deal or a deal is rejected by negotiations.

“We will now work with the government to get acceptable amendments tabled in the Lords to address this.”

Source Guardian

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/12/may-narrowly-avoids-brexit-bill-defeat-over-meaningful-vote

Best of all, the EU have to agree whatever HMG come up with re the 'border Q' and as things stand - I don't see that happening - so it will be " 'hard Brexit' and no border deal time"  - and you wait and see Mrs May squirm



 


 

[2tallbill]

I don't think it is necessarily that life is better.  It's just that if you grew up in the US, you are not Mexican, not in your attitudes or outlooks.

Let me go turn the water on at the tap and have a nice drink while
I think of what would happen if I did that in Mexico while pondering
if the 113 political candidates that have been murdered since September
exceeds the number killed in the USA.

Knowing that in Mexico I can always get paid at least the minimum wage
of 88.36 pesos per day ($4.27) is always reassuring. 

Yes, you are correct life in Mexico is just as good as the USA.

[Trenchcoat]

Mrs May had to make concessions to win and ALL she has done has put off the showdown

http://news.sky.com/story/government-avoids-eu-withdrawal-bill-defeat-after-last-ditch-deal-on-meaningful-vote-11403025



Trench - like dating - you read things VERY badly

ALL Mrs May has done has put off THE DAY ..

The key is was and will be the border Q ...

I do not agree with a 'Norway' EEA -style agreement - obeying the rules of a club - but not influencing the the rules by being sat at the table is ridiculous

As for your arithmetic... tell us what would have happened if the DUP and 2 more Tories voted against the govt ?

Many 'Rebels' have made it clear they only saved the govt - as they had received assurances

"In a sign that the government saw the prospect of defeat looming, the solicitor general, Robert Buckland, intervened from the front bench, saying there was “much merit” to parts of the compromise amendment.

Shortly afterwards, the former attorney general left the chamber, later joined by the bulk of the remain rebels, who had been sitting together in a corner of the Commons, raising speculation they had been offered a last-minute compromise.

After the vote, Grieve told the Guardian: “I am very pleased that the government has listened to the concerns of many colleagues and has responded positively to the need to amend the bill further to provide a proper mechanism to enable parliament to act, where necessary, if there is no deal or a deal is rejected by negotiations.

“We will now work with the government to get acceptable amendments tabled in the Lords to address this.”

Source Guardian

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/12/may-narrowly-avoids-brexit-bill-defeat-over-meaningful-vote

Best of all, the EU have to agree whatever HMG come up with re the 'border Q' and as things stand - I don't see that happening - so it will be " 'hard Brexit' and no border deal time"  - and you wait and see Mrs May squirm

Mobe If you read the BBC articles it was clear there was a complete collapse in support for the Customs Union, 90 Labour MPs voted against the Lords amendment, far higher than the few Labour (Leave) Rebels there usually are. Looks like the electorate in Leave constituencies have been making it clear to their representative MP's to vote down the Lords amendment and the consequence of not doing so

The compromises reached on a few of the other Lords amendments are small & not significant in nature. The main aspects of the Bill have been put back in place without any of the Lords amendments. They are highly unlikely to reimpose these amendments when bI'll returns to the Lords having already been heavily voted down in the Commons they know tgey wold look fpolish and there wold vE aN outcry. The minor compromise amendments being put forward to the Lords is to offer them a fig so their noses aren't put out of joint so they can eventually pass the bill without losing face and being totally humiliated. The battle is all but over Mobe and Remoaners have all but completely lost

[msmob]

Mobe If you read the BBC articles it was clear there was a complete collapse in support for the Customs Union, 90 Labour MPs voted against the Lords amendment, far higher than the few Labour (Leave) Rebels there usually are. Looks like the electorate in Leave constituencies have been making it clear to their representative MP's to vote down the Lords amendment and the consequence of not doing so

So, you are STILL talking about the 'EEA option' vote - that - as explained to you - few sensible MPs want - as even remain supporting folk would lynch 'em !

The compromises reached on a few of the other Lords amendments are small & not significant in nature.

 

So 'small and insignificant' that 'Brexit cabinet ministers have already made it clear then won't honour them - by altering what had been agreed.

Now the bill is going to get bounced by The Lords and Mrs May will have to deal with 'remainers' who won't compromise THIS  time...

As you mentioned the BBC - you should have read THIS :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44482652

[Trenchcoat]

So, you are STILL talking about the 'EEA option' vote - that - as explained to you - few sensible MPs want - as even remain supporting folk would lynch 'em !

Does that now include you Mobers Are we now flip flopping ourself away from the Customs Union idea now that it is essentially dead in the water after the a hugh rebellion in the Labour Party where there was 'supposed' to be big support for it.

The other matter of what happens if no deal is met though important is much less significant. Essentially the article you put forward will just likely mean a bit more haggling & kicking the issue around before it is settled. Make no mistake Mobers the Lord's efforts to push their 15 Amendments onto the commons has essentially been defeated. I can't see them having any grounds left on which to alter the bill any further nor any mandate to now that their nearly all of their amendments were defeated so convincingly

[msmob]

Does that now include you Mobers Are we now flip flopping ourself away from the Customs Union idea now that it is essentially dead in the water after the a hugh rebellion in the Labour Party where there was 'supposed' to be big support for it.

Trench, instead of posting after - just admit when you got busted ...

I do not want to leave the EU or the customs union  -  the EEA route is plain STUPID as we can simply remain

In the meantime, our 'super economy' is resulting in more great news from Rolls Royce, Poundworld, House of Fraser

If you think having no scenario for a no deal solution isn't important .. ))))

[DaveNY]

Trench, instead of posting after - just admit when you got busted ...

I do not want to leave the EU or the customs union  -  the EEA route is plain STUPID as we can simply remain

In the meantime, our 'super economy' is resulting in more great news from Rolls Royce, Poundworld, House of Fraser

If you think having no scenario for a no deal solution isn't important .. ))))

Since the High Court's decision says MPs must have a vote on leaving the EU what happens if MPs defy May and vote to stay in the EU? Is it likely  MPs will vote to stay in the EU?

[msmob]

Which Court Case, Dave ?

Are you confusing the case over invoking article 50 ?