More Debate

[BillyB]

Are you another American who believes such crap ?

He is one of many Americans that believe many of you in Europe aren't pulling your weight.

Let's say your name is Germany. You let everybody know how much money you have and that you're financially well off. You enter into an agreement where everybody must chip in 2% of what they make. Over the years one guy called America regularly chips in 4-5% while you slip to 1%. America calls you out saying he's paying for you and you say "Do you believe that crap?"

In the past two years, Trump has reduced UN spending by almost a billion dollars and America still spends the most at the UN. You criticized Trump for doing that but if the corrupt free programs at the UN are so wonderful, why didn't you tell your nation to donate more?

Germany, with one of the best economies in the world said they'll get back to 2% spending at NATO by 2030. Who actually believes that? Why can't they and other nations meet their obligations now? America has been regularly beating it's obligations by double. We get no thanks but we do get insults. Funny thing is we're less likely to be invaded than Europe yet we spend more.

If more and more Europeans think like you Moby where you're clueless to why people are upset and thankless for what they do for you, NATO may not exist in the future and death by guns in Europe will remain higher there just as they have in the last hundreds years than they do in America.

[msmob]

He is one of many Americans that believe many of you in Europe aren't pulling your weight.

I'm in the UK - and you're posting shyte - AGAIN, BillyB ... Should I start lumping in Canada and Mexico when referring to 'America' ... it makes as much sense as you do

[Anotherkiwi]

...NATO may not exist in the future and death by guns in Europe will remain higher there just as they have in the last hundreds years than they do in America.

I could be REALLY rude about this, but I won't.

How many more times do we have put up with this absolute and utter bullshit?

[BillyB]

How many more times do we have put up with this absolute and utter bullshit?

As many times as people talk about gun deaths in America, I'll talk about gun deaths elsewhere.

[Anotherkiwi]

As many times as people talk about gun deaths in America, I'll talk about gun deaths elsewhere.

I don't care what you post but, if you're going to do so, then contribute ACCURATE information on this particular subject - which you never have.

[BillyB]

I don't care what you post but, if you're going to do so, then contribute ACCURATE information on this particular subject - which you never have.

I have posted links to how many people died in Europe and how many Americans died in Europe's wars. Gun deaths were a major factor. Over the last hundred years, it's a lot safer to live in America than it was in Europe.

[fathertime]

I have posted links to how many people died in Europe and how many Americans died in Europe's wars. Gun deaths were a major factor. Over the last hundred years, it's a lot safer to live in America than it was in Europe.

Really wars are a different subject entirely.   The big wars were on European soil, and nowadays on Middle East soil, but we are heavily involved in all of them.   During peacetime, gun deaths in the US are unparalleled among advanced countries, and the issue people are discussing. 

Fathertime! 

[BillyB]

Really wars are a different subject entirely. 

Dying is the same

During peacetime, gun deaths in the US are unparalleled among advanced countries, and the issue people are discussing. 

People have discussed how much safer it is in their country compared to America. I disagreed and told them why. Their countries would even be more dangerous and possibly not exist if it weren't for American guns backing them up.
 
If America averages 10,000 gun homicides each year, 7000 years would have to pass by before it equals the death toll of 70 million in WWII. Factor in all the other wars and conflicts going on in the World and things don't look so bad in America after all.

A lot of people elsewhere like to say what their country does better than America. It's great they have something to be proud of but they have to be prepared for someone in America to say what America does better than their country.

[msmob]

Typical BillyB

Std tactic when his beloved nation is 'attacked' .... point out why we should be grateful to America...

'We are''.....( happy?)

 Now when will you admit you have a serious social problem and start dealing with it?

[BillyB]

Typical BillyB

Std tactic when his beloved nation is 'attacked' ....

Typical Moby, when attacking others or their nation, he expects no attack in return. What world are you living in? Read below. UK boy accidently stabs himself with a knife. You need a ban on knives to keep them out of children's hands. Although people in the UK have the right to own knives, you should have knife clubs where others can lock up the knives you own. More laws will get the law breakers to turn in their weapons, right?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/man-stabs-himself-death-stab-proof-vest-jordan-easton-teeside-inquest-a8402961.html

[msmob]

Typical Moby, when attacking others or their nation, he expects no attack in return.

BillyB, the more observant poster will note I don't deny Knile crime is an issue ....  but one is SIX times more likely to be murdered in the USA than the UK - based 0n 2013 figures quoted this week



What world are you living in? Read below. UK boy accidently stabs himself with a knife. You need a ban on knives to keep them out of children's hands. Although people in the UK have the right to own knives, you should have knife clubs where others can lock up the knives you own. More laws will get the law breakers to turn in their weapons, right?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/man-stabs-himself-death-stab-proof-vest-jordan-easton-teeside-inquest-a8402961.html
[/quote]

*I* know that under 18's can't buy knives and have no right to carry 'em in public and can be searched

It is noted that - as usual - you didn't deal with your nation's social issues - which are FAR worse .....

[Anotherkiwi]

I have posted links to how many people died in Europe and how many Americans died in Europe's wars. Gun deaths were a major factor.

You keep bringing this up, and now you've even moved it into a new thread.  It doesn't change anything, Billy.  Forget wars.  Miguel's thread is about gun violence (specifically guns that are available to the public - i.e. handguns, rifles, shotguns) in the streets and homes in the world we live in now - NOT about wars, past or present, where only a very small percentage of victims are those who actually get shot one on one on the ground.

And THAT is what everyone else has been discussing for the years that that thread has been going, despite your attempts to sidetrack it with your irrelevancies.

Over the last hundred years, it's a lot safer to live in America than it was in Europe.

And over the last 73 years, since the end of World War II, it's been a lot safer to live in Europe than in the USA.

[BillyB]

now you've even moved it into a new thread.

I do not have the power to move posts to new threads. Somebody else did.

And over the last 73 years, since the end of World War II, it's been a lot safer to live in Europe than in the USA.

Why is life in Europe so great? Did New Zealand block and stop the spread of Communism after WW2? Did New Zealand park millions of soldiers in Western Europe over many decades to provide security in Europe? If New Zealand didn't spend a lot of money fighting the Cold War, Europe would be in a world of hurt. Thank you New Zealand. Your way of life has helped many outside your country.

And over the last 73 years, since the end of World War II, it's been a lot safer to live in Europe than in the USA.

You're making this too easy for me. If you said the last 50 years, you'd still lose. Even after WW2, it's safer to live in America than it is in Europe.

The 3 year Bosnian war in the 90's alone got 100,000 people killed, up to 50,000 women raped and over 2 million displaced from their homes. Here is a list of conflicts in Europe over the last 73 years. You can verify by Wiki link I'll provide at the end. Click on the conflict or war to see the death toll and add them up. There would've been more conflicts and war if America didn't help keep the peace. Don't forget to add the yearly homicide rates by way of gun in Europe to the total.

Add WW1 and WW2 to Europe's problems and it's absolutely mind boggling how many people die in senseless killings in Europe than in America. I'm not convicted people of today are different than their grandfathers and great grandfathers. We're just as violent and things can get out of hand very quickly. Thanks to America's guns, people are more likely to behave.

1944–1956 Guerrilla war in the Baltic states
1945–1949 Greek Civil War
1947–1962 Romanian anti-communist resistance movement
1953 Uprising in East Germany
1956 Uprising in Poznań
1956 Hungarian Revolution
1956–1962 Operation Harvest
1958 Opération Corse
1958 First Cod War
1959–2011 Basque conflict
1967 Greek coup d'état
1968 Warsaw Pact invasion of Czechoslovakia
1968–1998 The Troubles
1970–1984 Unrest in Italy
1972–1973 Second Cod War
1974 Turkish invasion of Cyprus
1975-1976 Third Cod War
1988–1994 Nagorno-Karabakh War
1989 Romanian Revolution
1991 Ten-Day War (Slovenia)
1991–1992 Georgian war against Russo-Ossetian alliance
1991–1993 Georgian Civil War
1991–1995 Croatian War of Independence
1992 War of Transnistria
1992 Ossetian-Ingush conflict
1992–1993 First Georgian war against Russo-Abkhazian alliance
1992–1995 Bosnian War
1993 Cherbourg incident
1993 Russian constitutional crisis
1994–1996 First Chechen War
1997 Unrest in Albania
1998–1999 Kosovo War
1998–present Dissident Irish Republican campaign
1998 Second Georgian war against Russian-Abkhazian alliance
1999 Dagestan War
1999–2009 Second Chechen War
1999–2001 Insurgency in the Preševo Valley
since 1992-present Nagorno-Karabakh conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan.
2001 Insurgency in the Republic of Macedonia
2002 Perejil Island crisis
2004–2013 Unrest in Kosovo 2004 unrest in Kosovo
2008 unrest in Kosovo
2011–2013 North Kosovo crisis

2004 Georgia, Adjara crisis
2006 Georgia, Kodori crisis
2007–2015 Civil war in Ingushetia
2008 Russia–Georgia war
2009–2017 Insurgency in the North Caucasus
2013–2014 Euromaidan and pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine 2014 Crimean crisis
2014–present War in Donbass
2015 Kumanovo clashes

The link below is one clue on why people wanted to get the heck out of Europe and come to America.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Europe

[msmob]

BillyB



How many wars have there been between EU nations ?

Thank you ...

This is the MAIN reason the Sky could fall in - no matter what it costs and for all it's faults ...Europe has forced itself to talk and trade

[Anotherkiwi]

I do not have the power to move posts to new threads. Somebody else did.

That wasn't what I was referring to.  At the time I didn't know that this thread had actually been split off from another.

Why is life in Europe so great? Did New Zealand block and stop the spread of Communism after WW2? Did New Zealand park millions of soldiers in Western Europe over many decades to provide security in Europe? If New Zealand didn't spend a lot of money fighting the Cold War, Europe would be in a world of hurt. Thank you New Zealand. Your way of life has helped many outside your country.

I'm glad that you, like so many others, have come to appreciate just how wonderful New Zealand is.  Thank you! 

You're making this too easy for me. If you said the last 50 years, you'd still lose. Even after WW2, it's safer to live in America than it is in Europe.

The 3 year Bosnian war in the 90's alone got 100,000 people killed, up to 50,000 women raped and over 2 million displaced from their homes. Here is a list of conflicts in Europe over the last 73 years. You can verify by Wiki link I'll provide at the end. Click on the conflict or war to see the death toll and add them up. There would've been more conflicts and war if America didn't help keep the peace.

Neither I, nor anyone else, is disputing any of what you've written here.  What I AM disputing is the relevance to what has always been the subject of the original thread - "Gun Violence in America."

Don't forget to add the yearly homicide rates by way of gun in Europe to the total.

Those are the only numbers which are relevant to this discussion, because it is NOT about wars and other such conflicts.

Add WW1 and WW2 to Europe's problems and it's absolutely mind boggling how many people die in senseless killings in Europe than in America. I'm not convicted people of today are different than their grandfathers and great grandfathers. We're just as violent and things can get out of hand very quickly. Thanks to America's guns, people are more likely to behave.

More deflection.  The USA is one country, so it's hardly likely to go to war with itself again after the horrendous cost of the Civil War in the 1860s.  Europe has many countries, and the World Wars were the result of some of those countries still trying to use force to increase their territory.  Subsequent conflicts, up to and including the Russian invasion of Ukraine, have been the result of exactly the same desires.

You ask the average person in England, or Sweden, or Portugal, or Germany, or even Ukraine, if they think they would have the greater chance of being shot dead in their home country or the USA - and they are ALL going to say the USA.

...1958 First Cod War
...1972–1973 Second Cod War
...1975-1976 Third Cod War

Seriously?  In case you're not aware, just ONE person died in those conflicts - an engineer repairing a ship after a collision when, unfortunately, the two ships collided again.  "War" is a complete misnomer for these disputes - it just has a certain ring to it.

[BillyB]

How many wars have there been between EU nations ?

Does it matter if you die by the gun of a fellow citizen who disagrees with your politics or by a neighbor who wants to steal your women and rape your horses?

Notice most of the conflict and wars in Europe after WW2 happened on the Eastern side. The difference is that side didn't have America's guns keeping the peace. If it weren't for the threat of America kicking anybody's ass who'd attack a Western European nation, it probably wouldn't be so peaceful over there.

What I AM disputing is the relevance to what has always been the subject of the original thread - "Gun Violence in America."

I just want to give perspective of how much violence by way of gun is happening outside of America. It stikes a nerve in some people. And... I still haven't forgotten that New Zealand is #1 on domestic violence but I won't start a thread on New Zealand's problems because you'd probably knock my teeth out.

[msmob]

Does it matter if you die by the gun of a fellow citizen who disagrees with your politics or by a neighbor who wants to steal your women and rape your horses?

Answer the question, BillyB ...

How many wars between EU members ?

Notice most of the conflict and wars in Europe after WW2 happened on the Eastern side. The difference is that side didn't have America's guns keeping the peace. If it weren't for the threat of America kicking anybody's ass who'd attack a Western European nation, it probably wouldn't be so peaceful over there.

WHAT a crock of shyte..

The Balkans are in Eastern Europe - but were not under Soviet or  NATO affiliated leadership ..   Yugoslavia was held together by a dictator - Tito - and when he died - nationalist aspirations arose - and the pot was stirred by .... western nations including Germany and the USA ..

Other wars- say in Eastern Moldova, Georgia, Ukraine are a result of the Soviet Union breaking up and acts of Soviet leaders to make regions part of another republic that ended up in the 'wrong country' 

Those nations that have joined the EU and are candidates are no longer fighting ...

I just want to give perspective of how much violence by way of gun is happening outside of America. It stikes a nerve in some people. And... I still haven't forgotten that New Zealand is #1 on domestic violence but I won't start a thread on New Zealand's problems because you'd probably knock my teeth out.

I rather think you are just doing the std BllyB obfuscation and deflection technique...

Which EU nation has a higher murder rate than the USA , BillyB ?  You know the answer already

As to NZ domestic violence ... I have a feeling that NZ is probably more progressive in dealing with DV  and reporting is greater - rather than it having a bigger problem

How many murders in the USA are DV related - check how many victims knew their perp ..and you might get a clue...

[BillyB]

These people are usually the toughest and smartest .. risking their lives ... 

Any young man who's running away from civil war isn't tough and isn't risking his life. If he hasn't found anything worth fighting for in his own country, he probably won't care about yours.

[msmob]

Any young man who's running away from civil war isn't tough and isn't risking his life. If he hasn't found anything worth fighting for in his own country, he probably won't care about yours.

WHAT a crock of shyte ...   I know folks from the UK who sent money to get family out ...  In the Syrian Civil war - one didn't know who one's enemy is/ was as allegiances changed and the 'govt' dropped barrel bombs - if they decided your area was a 'haven' for 'terrorists'

[BillyB]

In the Syrian Civil war - one didn't know who one's enemy is/ was

So they didn't know Assad and ISIS was bad and an enemy?

They ran instead of trying to make Syria a better place to live. Abandon your fellow citizens to the hostile government and terrorists to save their own skin. If the UK is invaded and the odds don't look good, don't count on their help. UK probably couldn't count on you either. You'd be running too.

[msmob]

So they didn't know Assad and ISIS was bad and an enemy?

BillyB ... why DO you post on things that show you have don't have a scoobie do ?

From Sunni to Shia... Al-Qaeda, Daesh (al-Dawlah al-Islamīyah), Jabhat Fateh al-Sham. Free Syrian Army, Assad's forces, Hezbollah, Russians, various Kurdish forces, Christian sects - the inter-relationships - antipathies are hard to follow by those living more then 1km way - depending on who is fighting who



BTW - this is about the EU - not Syria

UK probably couldn't count on you either. You'd be running too.

Almost certainly..   Those that claim they'd be heroes - tend to be the first to run ...  I'd be ensuring my family were in a safer environment

[BillyB]

Almost certainly..   Those that claim they'd be heroes - tend to be the first to run ...  I'd be ensuring my family were in a safer environment

Let's say most people are like you. To you, there's nothing dangerous in this world worth confronting. You'd run from Hitler. You'd run ISIS. You'd run from anybody that is trying to take over the world. Where would you run when there's no more safe places left to run to? Somebody has stopped ISIS to keep you and the world safe but you claim the heroes are the ones that are running. Go figure.

[msmob]

Let's say most people are like you. To you, there's nothing dangerous in this world worth confronting. You'd run from Hitler. You'd run ISIS. You'd run from anybody that is trying to take over the world. Where would you run when there's no more safe places left to run to? Somebody has stopped ISIS to keep you and the world safe but you claim the heroes are the ones that are running. Go figure.

BillyB,

Do tell us how the Jews, Belarusians, Russians, etc., 'got on' when hanging around ?

Daesh would NEVER had had a foothold - if is hadn't been for corruption in Iraq and the west not imposing a no-fly zone

[Boethius]

No, it predates that.  Daesh was established in the American run prisons of Iraq.  There are many good links in the below article -

http://goo.gl/VZ4fJ6


This book covers how ISIS evolved -

http://goo.gl/3WWhAR

[msmob]

OK, I wasn't clear ..the corruption after ( mainly) America tried to run a country without a plan