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Author Topic: Do FSUW Harbor a Soviet Mentality?  (Read 18171 times)

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Offline Gator

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Re: Do FSUW Harbor a Soviet Mentality?
« Reply #50 on: October 23, 2016, 07:44:30 PM »
Nope. 

Yeltsin was going to unseal the records.  Yakovlev persuaded him not to do so, stating it would lead to civil war.  This was reported in Russian papers at the time, and in the memoirs of someone in Yeltsin's circle.

Yakovlev had control of the fate of Soviet archives, and what information was released.  I remember the reports on sealing archives, because my husband said that allowing Yakovlev to determine that fate of Soviet archives was like putting Goebbels in charge of Nazi archives. 

It is mere conjecture to draw conclusions about the content of information contained in sealed records.   


Quote
Read the Der Spiegel link I provided.  It was as bad, if not worse, in the USSR.

I had read it. I just now read it again.   

Der Spiegel
reports that the motivations behind the snitching vary.  Some citizens informed on other citizens because of personal jealousy or personal revenge.  Others informed to be in good graces with the communists.  Some informed as a sense of loyalty.  Much of the effort collected routine surveillance data, establishing a record for investigators if a serious incident occurred in the future (similar to security cameras today).  In all, it seems as if a vast majority of the collected information was trivial. 

What were the results, i. e.,  how many clandestine enemies of DDR were apprehended because of information provided by snitches?  Der Spiegel provides no statistics.

Der Spiegel did provide statistics regarding the number of citizens in the army of DDR informants.     About 1% of the nation's total population was involved as unofficial  informants (IMs) maintained in a Stasi network.  These are citizens and not employees of Stasi.   For one town it is reported that four times the number of IMs were listed as "Auskunftspersonen" (AKP), or "information providers."   And for this town "... fully 18 percent of the population ...occasionally offered their services as AKP."

As you state,  the number who informed, whether occasionally or periodically, is large.  However, it is not a majority of the citizens.  It is a small minority. 

Online 2tallbill

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Do FSUW Harbor a Soviet Mentality?
« Reply #51 on: October 23, 2016, 08:03:07 PM »
And just because you think Hillary is not "a centrist" doesn't make it so.

That shoe fits on your foot as well.

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Offline Gator

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Re: Do FSUW Harbor a Soviet Mentality?
« Reply #52 on: October 23, 2016, 08:48:01 PM »
Boe,

You did not answer my question about your estimate of the percentage of RWD wives who were capable of being informants in Soviet days. 

Let me try based on the Der  Spiegel information.   18% of the DDR citizens occasionally offered their services as AKP.  Only 1% were in the Stasi unofficial network of informants, or IMs.

Let us use the 18% as a starting point.  To merely offer services of informing on neighbors or friends or family is evidence of intent to inform.  Let us also assume women were just as likely as men to betray a neighbor, a friend or even a member of one's family. 

I believe the 18% number needs to be at least halved because the activity of informing was declining as the USSR was liberalizing when our future brides were young adults or teenagers.  I assume that none of us married a women of a Stalin vintage, or the 10-20 years afterwards. 

18% x 50%  = 9%


This suggests only 1 of every 11 RW of a marriageable age would have been informants or willing to inform. 

Here comes the tricky part.  We need to reduce that number further to account for the fact that most of the RW who chose to marry an American and immigrate to America do not have the Soviet mentality described in krimster's three criteria.  Such a commie would abhor America too much to move here, or, better yet, the men dating them would sicken of their rotten attitude and dump them before marriage. 

For argument's sake, let us assume some of the old commies have converted on the outside, enough that some unsuspecting man would have married them.  I feel it is reasonable to assume 90% of those RW rotten enough to betray a friend would have eliminated themselves or been eliminated by the AM. 

So my back of the envelop calculations suggest:

9% x (100%-90%) = 0.9%.

In summary, one out of a hundred RW wives born before 1983 is so rotten to the core to have been capable of betraying a neighbor, friend,  or even her husband.  The risk is still there.....know your woman.     

Offline Boethius

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Re: Do FSUW Harbor a Soviet Mentality?
« Reply #53 on: October 23, 2016, 08:58:15 PM »
It is mere conjecture to draw conclusions about the content of information contained in sealed records.   

LOL.  The gatekeeper to the records said their contents would "lead to civil war".  Of course they have information about citizens.

I'll tell you one personal experience with an informant. 

In pillow talk, a couple weeks before we married, I told my husband something that no one else in the world knew.  Telling him anything is like telling it to a wall.  He never repeats anything to anyone.  He won't even tell me things that were told to him by others in confidence.  In any event, he trusted no one, so he would not have told anyone.

A few months before we could marry, and before I told my husband the above, he had to go to Moscow to get paperwork for our marriage, because he was marrying a foreigner.  On his way back, he ran into an acquaintance, who he knew was a snitch.  He talked general things to him, didn't tell him why he was in Moscow, but he knew their meeting was not coincidental.  He didn't think much more of it.

Ten weeks later, that same guy showed up at our wedding reception, which was in our apartment.  In fact, 3 informants showed up, all uninvited, and how they knew our wedding day, we have no idea (though I can guess), as the only people to be there were family and the witnesses to our marriage, and the informants were not known to our witnesses.  During dinner, the guy who was in Moscow repeated the pillow talk story to me.  It was an attempt to break up our marriage.  I just brushed it off, but my husband was upset, as he assumed I would be upset.

That was how I knew, for a fact, that our apartment was bugged, though my husband knew before.  That particular guest was coached to say those things, in an effort to upset me and, hopefully, cause conflict between me and my husband.  He said other things that he thought would upset me, but given the source, I just viewed them with amusement.

Quote
As you state,  the number who informed, whether occasionally or periodically, is large.  However, it is not a majority of the citizens.  It is a small minority.
It would depend on what those individuals needed.  At work, my husband knew when someone was in line for an apartment, or a place for their child in kindergarten, because he'd be approached by an escapee who obviously was uncomfortable, but would ask him something, or say something provocative in an attempt to upset him or in an attempt to gain information.  All of those encounters were reported.  Those "informants"  would be in the minority.  They had working class jobs, and lived relatively working class lives.  But the all powerful state still had the ability to stop their progress in even relatively small matters, and they did what they had to do.  That happened frequently, all over Ukraine.  In those cases, my husband never held it against them, it was as if that event had never occurred.  He knew they were compelled to do what they did, that it wasn't a desire to get ahead.

Komsomol members, OTOH, would volunteer for such events, as it propelled them forward in their careers.  The more educated a person, the more likely that at one point he/she made someone else's life comfortable, whether in a big way or in a trifling way, as that was often a path to educational advancement.

I believe you can't really understand this unless you lived it.  It is easy to dismiss. 

My whole point in my original comment was not to suggest that every person was an informant, and that is why I didn't answer your question.  You can't know.  Some academics who have studied this after the collapse put the number at one in ten, others, one in five, yet others, one in three.  My post was not about informants, just that a lot of these people did things that were less than honourable, and they did them to get ahead.  Fine, but they all reinvent themselves, and naive Westerners take them at their word.  That was my point.  You diverted it to informants.  It was far, far broader than that.

I'll give you three examples, two from the 1970's, one from the 1980's.  In the first, my husband was in school.  He had a ballpoint pen.  Another student took his pen and broke it because it was a product of the "bourgeois capitalist West".  The student was rewarded by the teacher.  In the second, my husband was a teen.  He was walking with a friend, one who later became a very famous Soviet rock star.  They were dressed in jeans, and the friend had on a pair of John Lennon type sunglasses.  A komsomol patrol stopped them, and asked why they were wearing "capitalist" jeans (Levis, which were available at unofficial markets then). The komsomol patrol took his friend's sunglasses from his face, and stomped on them.  They were required to provide their names and addresses.  The third occurred in the 1980's.  My husband took his nephew to a juice bar.  As they were drinking their juice, a komsomol patrol came in, and dragged out any young men who had long hair.  They were taken to the barber to get a proper "Soviet" haircut.  My husband had long hair, and escaped only because he had a youngster in tow. He said this was common in the 1970's and into the 1980's (until about 1985).

These, and the daily humiliations some enjoyed inflicting on others, is more of what I was referring to.  The informant system was only one small part of it. 
« Last Edit: October 23, 2016, 09:46:31 PM by Boethius »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline whynotme

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Re: Do FSUW Harbor a Soviet Mentality?
« Reply #54 on: October 23, 2016, 09:58:41 PM »
I'll give you three examples, two from the 1970's, one from the 1980's.  In the first, my husband was in school.  He had a ballpoint pen.  Another student took his pen and broke it because it was a product of the "bourgeois capitalist West".  The student was rewarded by the teacher.  In the second, my husband was a teen.  He was walking with a friend, one who later became a very famous Soviet rock star.  They were dressed in jeans, and the friend had on a pair of John Lennon type sunglasses.  A komsomol patrol stopped them, and asked why they were wearing "capitalist" jeans (Levis, which were available at unofficial markets then). The komsomol patrol took his friend's sunglasses from his face, and stomped on them.  They were required to provide their names and addresses.  The third occurred in the 1980's.  My husband took his nephew to a juice bar.  As they were drinking their juice, a komsomol patrol came in, and dragged out any young men who had long hair.  They were taken to the barber to get a proper "Soviet" haircut.  My husband had long hair, and escaped only because he had a youngster in tow. He said this was common in the 1970's and into the 1980's (until about 1985).

These, and the daily humiliations some enjoyed inflicting on others, is more of what I was referring to.  The informant system was only one small part of it.

Probably I would believe this story if it were in 50's or 60's. Maybe Boe doesn't want to tell the real age of her husband, and he is in his 80's.  :P Somehow I never met Komsomol patrols in the streets, nobody took my "bourgeois capitalist West" pens at school, and a lot of long-haired guys on my photos. Well, all my classmates wore jeans in the 80s.

Offline Boethius

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Re: Do FSUW Harbor a Soviet Mentality?
« Reply #55 on: October 23, 2016, 10:14:09 PM »
My parents are not yet close to 80, and I didn't marry a man my father's age.

I don't care if you believe me. I will point out you were a Komsomol member so you wouldn't have been a target. Plus, things were different in different republics. My husband was in the Baltic republics right after his military service and said things were far more repressive than they were in Ukraine.  It was also more repressive in Western Ukraine than it was in Central or Eastern Ukraine.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2016, 10:23:47 PM by Boethius »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline whynotme

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Re: Do FSUW Harbor a Soviet Mentality?
« Reply #56 on: October 23, 2016, 10:33:15 PM »
My parents are not yet close to 80, and I didn't marry a man my father's age.

I don't care if you believe me. I will point out you were a Komsomol member so you wouldn't have been a target. Plus, things were different in different republics. My husband was in the Baltic republics right after his military service and said things were far more repressive than they were in Ukraine.  It was also more repressive in Western Ukraine than it was in Central or Eastern Ukraine.

Can you tell the percent of young people in 70-80's in the USSR who were not a Komsomol members?  :D

Offline Boethius

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Re: Do FSUW Harbor a Soviet Mentality?
« Reply #57 on: October 23, 2016, 11:02:41 PM »
According to Soviet statistics, 2%

It was their country. It was their duty. They were proud of what they did.  But they forgot all of that when they pursued foreign husbands or foreign business opportunities.  That was my original point.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Gator

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Re: Do FSUW Harbor a Soviet Mentality?
« Reply #58 on: October 24, 2016, 09:36:48 AM »
My parents are not yet close to 80, and I didn't marry a man my father's age.

I don't care if you believe me.  I will point out you were a Komsomol member so you wouldn't have been a target.

Your husband did not join the Komsomol?  It is my understanding that every student, except those with bad marks, became members at a young age.

My wife was a member of the pioneers, and her favorite part was wearing the red scarf and answering
"I am always ready." :D   She joined the Komsomol in the sixth grade.  As you say, she felt it was her duty.  She recalls nervously standing before the class and answering questions necessary to join the Komsomol.

At age 17, her life changed as she came into contact with some wise people who gave her important advice.  In sports, she received a salary 3x of a graduate engineer.  She then began a modeling career, and did very well.  At age 21 or 22 her boss advised her to join the КПСС.  She wanted nothing to do with the КПСС, yet saying "I don't need you" would cause her problems.   Instead, she said, "I am not ready," (the opposite of her Pioneer training). 
« Last Edit: October 24, 2016, 09:38:21 AM by Gator »

Offline Boethius

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Re: Do FSUW Harbor a Soviet Mentality?
« Reply #59 on: October 24, 2016, 09:44:51 AM »
Your husband did not join the Komsomol?  It is my understanding that every student, except those with bad marks, became members at a young age.

My wife was a member of the pioneers, and her favorite part was wearing the red scarf and answering
"I am always ready." :D   She joined the Komsomol in the sixth grade.  As you say, she felt it was her duty.  She recalls nervously standing before the class and answering questions necessary to join the Komsomol.

At age 17, her life changed as she came into contact with some wise people who gave her important advice.  In sports, she received a salary 3x of a graduate engineer.  She then began a modeling career, and did very well.  At age 21 or 22 her boss advised her to join the КПСС.  She wanted nothing to do with the КПСС, yet saying "I don't need you" would cause her problems.   Instead, she said, "I am not ready," (the opposite of her Pioneer training).


No, he always refused to join the Komsomol.  In the navy, he and one other sailor were the only two members who were not Komsomol members.  His sister also refused to join, as did his nephew.  He used to say he was "not ideologically ready".

He was a young pioneer, as there was no choice in that.  But all that was required was to wear the scarf to school.  He would put his on as he entered the school grounds.  He had a classmate who refused to do even that, and used to chide my husband for wearing his.  Both of the classmate's parents had been jailed for nothing, his father dying in prison, and to punish the family further, the boy was placed in an orphanage rather than with his Grandmother.  Because of his pioneer defiance, the boy's mother, who had been released, was called to the school.  Unlike most Soviet parents, she unleashed a torrent of abuse at the teachers when they mentioned this, so they backed off and that boy never did wear the scarf.  He was Jewish, and as a teen, emigrated with his mother.  They ended up in Philadelphia.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Gator

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Re: Do FSUW Harbor a Soviet Mentality?
« Reply #60 on: October 24, 2016, 10:26:37 AM »

No, he always refused to join the Komsomol.  In the navy, he and one other sailor were the only two members who were not Komsomol members.  His sister also refused to join, as did his nephew.  He used to say he was "not ideologically ready".

The same that my wife said when asked to join the communist party.   ;)


You have been an insightful poster for many years.   You have made many posts about your husband.  You love him, and he sounds like a brilliant, free thinking man.  It was apparent to me early in your postings that your husband was critical of the communist government.     

I am not saying your husband was a radical (maybe he was), yet his defiance was clearly apparent.  Surely this caused the network of informants to report him enough that he became a blip at a young age on the communist internal "radar."  Once on that radar screen, he received increased attention.  He was followed and watched,  i. e., "targeted"   in your terms. 

You offer good testimony that this happened, and I am sure you felt informants and others of that ilk were all around.  However, we can not extrapolate your experience to the general Russian population.   

Offline Boethius

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Re: Do FSUW Harbor a Soviet Mentality?
« Reply #61 on: October 24, 2016, 04:06:31 PM »
No, he wasn't critical of the system, nor defiant when he lived there.  To do so was a criminal offense.  His family was prominent.  I mean historically significant prominent, so they were marked as "non proletarian", and persecuted.  As a teen, his father took him on a trip across the USSR, to show him the country he lived in, so that he would have an easier life than did his father.  He used to have to go up to policemen and bribe them, as but one of his life lessons on that trip.  He also made him memorize the criminal code.  To today, he can tell you every article of the old code, most of which is identical to the current Russian criminal code.  He could have embraced the party, become a komsomol member, done what the party requested, and his life would have been easier.   He said he tried to think like they did, but he could not, and he refused to live contrary to his nature.  The first time the police searched him, he was in a diaper in a baby crib, so it had nothing to do with him.  His entire family was targeted.  He told me of a classmate who was "hated" as well, he didn't know why.  Once here, he was doing genealogical research, and saw that the classmate's great grandfather had been a general, standing beside the Tsar in many photos.  So, his family was not unique in what they endured. 

My Grandmother's family in Western Ukraine had an almost identical view of the USSR as did my husband.  They were simple peasants.  They watched what they said, and on one visit, were spooked by someone they described as an informant.  My Grandfather was born in Canada, but when he went to Ukraine with my Grandmother, he attempted to contact a relative from his village.  She refused to meet him.  After the collapse, she wrote him.  My Godfather, a German slave labourer during the war, had two sons in Ukraine.  Their views too, were identical to those of my husband.  I've posted this story before, but I had a friend whose grandparents visited her in L'viv.  They were from a village, and did not know what an elevator was.  Yet they were hesitant to talk in the hotel.  She quipped, "They didn't know what an elevator was, but they knew they could not speak freely in the hotel."

I remember as a tourist in the USSR in 1976, overhearing a child remark on how we were better dressed than they were, and how we laughed.  I was just a kid then too.  I was the only one around, other than my sister, and we both heard him.  The mother shushed the child, rather strictly.

Most FSU citizens would have known, from the time they were children, that there were things you could say and things you could not. 

The informant system was very pervasive.  What was not, which my husband's family endured, was having your apartment bugged (that only occurred to those on authorities' radar), or being stopped by the police continually (which happened to my husband weekly - they used to steal from him - a beautiful silver cross made for him by a friend, books, his money, so he stopped carrying money, only a bus pass).  It was just a matter of degree.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2016, 05:03:06 PM by Boethius »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Gator

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Re: Do FSUW Harbor a Soviet Mentality?
« Reply #62 on: October 25, 2016, 06:03:19 AM »
No, he wasn't critical of the system, nor defiant when he lived there. 

Whatever you call it, he chose not to join something that included 98% of the nation (and most of the 2% were not given the opportunity to join because of bad marks in school).   To use your words, he did not fulfill his duty.

In a one-party system, his act had to draw attention.  He became a blip on the radar....and the rest naturally followed.  And yes, those who harassed him were rotten people.   

One Hungarian acquaintance in my UN days in the 1970s, said the communists thought of the people as a sea of grass, everyone the same.  If one blade of grass grew taller than the others, the system would inspect it closely and cut the blade down.  And remove it if thought to be a weed.   

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Re: Do FSUW Harbor a Soviet Mentality?
« Reply #63 on: October 27, 2016, 07:09:47 PM »
No, they have no conception of this, and would poo poo the idea if put to them.

It is almost the same thing as what people don't understand about letting in people from other countries who have completely different ideas about many things compared to 'us.'

So, to be racist or zenophobic, I would state that many in USA do not realize that when the 'south countries' take over the USA (as they will based on illegal immigration and birth rates), that the USA will become almost a mirror of the conditions that were existing in the countries that they left.

Yes, I know we are a nation of immigrants, but our country was founded on and became great with immigrants of a different mentality than that held by most who are coming now.

Yes, there are still 'some' immigrants coming who bring a lot of talent . . . but they are a very small minority of those coming in now.

I know it has nothing to do with the thread topic but yea, I just can't understand why so few people seem to understand this concept and why so few are concerned about it. There will be a fundamental change in culture and quality of life in this country.

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Re: Do FSUW Harbor a Soviet Mentality?
« Reply #64 on: October 28, 2016, 08:05:28 AM »
My wife is somewhat older than many on RWD and has told me often that she was happy under the Communists. No real complaints. Even had one job with "secret" clearance. But the breakup years were hard for her. Half of that was embarrassment when they realized that they were no longer that great power many had believed, Plus government was confusing for many. Something that would never happen here  :o


Because of this she likes Putin and says she will vote for Trump.

Offline Gator

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Re: Do FSUW Harbor a Soviet Mentality?
« Reply #65 on: October 28, 2016, 12:35:12 PM »
But the breakup years were hard for her. Half of that was embarrassment when they realized that they were no longer that great power many had believed, Plus government was confusing for many. Something that would never happen here  :o

1.  Great power!?   Two parts, military and economy.

The Soviet military was perceived as strong for defeating the Nazis (due to their willingness to die in a war of attrition against a greatly outnumbered enemy) for spending such much of the Soviet economy on the military. 

Truth be told, the military was a distant second to the US, yet they were strong enough to create and fight major conflicts, even strong enough to assure mutual destruction of the world (and we would not be here today as there would be no "today").

The Soviet economy was somewhere between the West and the third world, closer to the latter than the former.


2.  Embarrassment?

The former Soviet citizens should have felt  some embarrassment.  That quickly should have turned into anger at their government and anger at themselves for being gullible.  The Soviet citizens were duped by Soviet propaganda, plus the Soviet effort to repress any thought to the contrary of the propaganda messages.   The repression of free thought included creating and maintaining  the atmosphere that Big Brother is always watching - exactly what concerned Boethius.   


Quote
Because of this she likes Putin and says she will vote for Trump.

My wife feels the same.  Given the embarrassment that should have grown into anger, I question why the Russian people allow Putin to stay in power.   I surmise they believe the next guy would be worse.  I. e., Putin may be a dictator, but he is viewed as a benevolent dictator who is restoring the once prominence of Russia.  It baffles me given America's rebellion for independence and its fervent protection of the democracy it spawned. 

Offline ML

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Re: Do FSUW Harbor a Soviet Mentality?
« Reply #66 on: October 28, 2016, 12:57:03 PM »
Given the embarrassment that should have grown into anger, I question why the Russian people allow Putin to stay in power.   I surmise they believe the next guy would be worse.  I. e., Putin may be a dictator, but he is viewed as a benevolent dictator who is restoring the once prominence of Russia.  It baffles me given America's rebellion for independence and its fervent protection of the democracy it spawned.

Read about the Russian heritage of serfdom and you will understand their mentality.
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Offline Gator

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Re: Do FSUW Harbor a Soviet Mentality?
« Reply #67 on: October 28, 2016, 01:02:28 PM »
Read about the Russian heritage of serfdom and you will understand their mentality.

I knew you would have something to say about Russians.   ;)

All of Europe had a history of feudalism, although the eastern regions had it later ("later serfdom").   So what is the difference? 

Offline BillyB

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Re: Do FSUW Harbor a Soviet Mentality?
« Reply #68 on: October 28, 2016, 07:38:50 PM »
My wife is somewhat older than many on RWD and has told me often that she was happy under the Communists. No real complaints. Even had one job with "secret" clearance. But the breakup years were hard for her.


Interesting your wife accepted the good parts of Communism and doesn't consider the bad part, self destructing, as a result of the flawed system.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

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Re: Do FSUW Harbor a Soviet Mentality?
« Reply #69 on: October 28, 2016, 07:45:12 PM »
Read about the Russian heritage of serfdom and you will understand their mentality.

I'd recommend to start from re-reading your own history (it's much shorter than Russian's) and remember when the segregation was officially banned and when the native americans began to consider US citizens. Indeed, who are you to lecture us?  :D

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Re: Do FSUW Harbor a Soviet Mentality?
« Reply #70 on: October 28, 2016, 07:48:45 PM »
Interesting your wife accepted the good parts of Communism and doesn't consider the bad part, self destructing, as a result of the flawed system.

Presumably, his wife, and many others have found a lot of more interesting things to do than fight with the regime, which was not so bad as the West tries to represent.

Offline jone

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Re: Do FSUW Harbor a Soviet Mentality?
« Reply #71 on: October 28, 2016, 08:22:26 PM »
I'd recommend to start from re-reading your own history (it's much shorter than Russian's) and remember when the segregation was officially banned and when the native americans began to consider US citizens. Indeed, who are you to lecture us?  :D

While there is no question that America decimated its native american population, the US has not gone through regime change like the Russians have.  It could be argued that the one political upheaval the US did suffer was the elimnation of slavery and the establishment of universal rights. 

Russia, on the other hand, had serious changes in the government.  Some of the Russian Tzars had excellent records for empowering their subjects.  However, no one in history has killed more of its own countrymen in systematic elimination of segments of the population than the despotic rule of Stalin.  A part of Soviet history that is being more and more glorified.
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

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Re: Do FSUW Harbor a Soviet Mentality?
« Reply #72 on: October 28, 2016, 09:45:16 PM »
However, no one in history has killed more of its own countrymen in systematic elimination of segments of the population than the despotic rule of Stalin.  A part of Soviet history that is being more and more glorified.

Very controversial statement. However, it's easy to believe in every dirt about Russia and USSR than objectively evaluate that part of history.

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Re: Do FSUW Harbor a Soviet Mentality?
« Reply #73 on: October 28, 2016, 10:12:59 PM »
Very controversial statement. However, it's easy to believe in every dirt about Russia and USSR than objectively evaluate that part of history.

You can spin it any way you want.  I asked my wife about this topic and her her mother and most everyone her age thought Stalin was a hero......... until they learned the truth later.   She was a highly educated woman and a professor at one of the major universities in Kiev.  From a casual attempt at logic and critical thinking, I suspect that her beliefs were pretty widespread.

Can you imagine the embarrassment that one feels when they learn that someone they revered turns out to be a terrible person once the truth overpowered the propaganda?

Until recently, the USA has not experienced corruption on a national level until recently (at least it was not exposed to the public until recently).  This election might be a wake-up call to middle America.  One of the reasons Trump is so popular is that he is an outsider and is a populist   A lot of America is fed up with the elites running the country and making decisions that the public do not support.  When Trump speaks about "draining the swamp" in Washington it appeals to many Americans.

I predict that Trump is going to win!  If not, I will take it like a man and admit my judgement was wrong.  One of the reasons I have confidence is that my observations of the public support is telling.  Trump supporters are quiet about their support and do not put up yard signs.  The reason is retribution, not wanting rocks through your windows, etc.  I suspect that there is a large amount of support that is not shared even among neighbors.  By the same token I have also not seen any Hillary bumper stickers.  Not sure why that is not the case since conservatives are not as prone to damage property, etc.

IMO, the only thing that could cause Trump to lose is if he does something really stupid by running his mouth about something that has nothing to do with his message and policy positions.
Doug (Calmissile)

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Re: Do FSUW Harbor a Soviet Mentality?
« Reply #74 on: October 30, 2016, 04:08:53 AM »
I'd thank everyone for the high level of details delivered there.
I have always been fascinated by the real life in USSR and getting first selection informations from the old time
is very precious (thank, especially Bo).
I am reading with high attention this topic.
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