Russian Women Discussion

RWD News From the Front => Ukrainian Front Discussion => Topic started by: Boethius on July 31, 2016, 06:48:26 PM

Title: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on July 31, 2016, 06:48:26 PM

A piece on Paul Manafort's role in electing Yanukovych


Edited - I have cut the link, so that the reading pane on the forum isn't changed. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/01/us/ (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/01/us/paul-manafort-ukraine-donald-trump.html?rref=collection%2Fnewseventcollection%2FPresidential%20Election%202016&action=click&contentCollection=Politics&module=Collection&region=Marginalia&src=me&version=newsevent&pgtype=article)
paul-manafort-ukraine-donald-trump.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/01/us/paul-manafort-ukraine-donald-trump.html?rref=collection%2Fnewseventcollection%2FPresidential%20Election%202016&action=click&contentCollection=Politics&module=Collection&region=Marginalia&src=me&version=newsevent&pgtype=article)
?rref=collection%2Fnewseventcollection% (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/01/us/paul-manafort-ukraine-donald-trump.html?rref=collection%2Fnewseventcollection%2FPresidential%20Election%202016&action=click&contentCollection=Politics&module=Collection&region=Marginalia&src=me&version=newsevent&pgtype=article)
2FPresidential%20Election%202016&action (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/01/us/paul-manafort-ukraine-donald-trump.html?rref=collection%2Fnewseventcollection%2FPresidential%20Election%202016&action=click&contentCollection=Politics&module=Collection&region=Marginalia&src=me&version=newsevent&pgtype=article)
=click&contentCollection=Politics&module (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/01/us/paul-manafort-ukraine-donald-trump.html?rref=collection%2Fnewseventcollection%2FPresidential%20Election%202016&action=click&contentCollection=Politics&module=Collection&region=Marginalia&src=me&version=newsevent&pgtype=article)
=Collection&region=Marginalia&src (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/01/us/paul-manafort-ukraine-donald-trump.html?rref=collection%2Fnewseventcollection%2FPresidential%20Election%202016&action=click&contentCollection=Politics&module=Collection&region=Marginalia&src=me&version=newsevent&pgtype=article)
=me&version=newsevent&pgtype=article (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/01/us/paul-manafort-ukraine-donald-trump.html?rref=collection%2Fnewseventcollection%2FPresidential%20Election%202016&action=click&contentCollection=Politics&module=Collection&region=Marginalia&src=me&version=newsevent&pgtype=article)
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: fathertime on July 31, 2016, 07:43:01 PM
A piece on Paul Manafort's role in electing Yanukovych



It looks like many of those phony Republican 'warriors' actually cared more about thwarting anything Obama did, than they did for Ukraine.  Their collective embrace of Trump/Manafort provides evidence! 


Fathertime! 
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on July 31, 2016, 08:09:49 PM
Paul Manafort is a person that is hired to improve the image of the person that hires them. Sure he worked for Yanukovych to help him improve his image. He probably told Yanukovych to be a better person which will naturally improve his image. Just last year you said protestors were tired of the corruption, which had reached new heights under Yanukovych, in which you denied until the proof was presented. That proof came after he was ousted. If you didn't know Yanukovych was that bad a few years ago, how do you expect Manafort to know in 2004? As an attorney, you have clients that pay you for results. Pay you to help them be a winner. You don't know what those people are doing behind closed doors when nobody is looking but you do your job to the best of your ability. If one gets caught doing something illegal, you should not be blamed for working for them. Now if you have something on Manafort that he helped Yanukovych to spread corruption to hurt Ukraine, let us know.

Although your article claims they were in bed together most of the time, your article did admit Manafort grew disillusioned with Yanukovych in the end . Check out Wikipedia. The man has been an advisor to the campaigns of 4 men that went on to be President of the USA. Do you think Trump hired the man because he may be pro Russian or do you think Trump hired the man based off his previous success? Now if a good chunk of Trump's advisors are pro Russian, then we can begin to claim birds of a feather flock together.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Gator on July 31, 2016, 08:19:27 PM

It looks like many of those phony Republican 'warriors' actually cared more about thwarting anything Obama did, than they did for Ukraine.  Their collective embrace of Trump/Manafort provides evidence! 


Fathertime!

Weren't you the one who kept pushing for a win-win in which Ukraine would let Russia  keep Crimea, Donbass, etc. in exchange for a promise from Putin that Russia would not take any more Ukrainian territory? 

Let me get this straight -  you are now supporting Ukraine's freedom and independence and consider Putin a bad guy? 
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on July 31, 2016, 08:27:38 PM

It looks like many of those phony Republican 'warriors' actually cared more about thwarting anything Obama did, than they did for Ukraine.  Their collective embrace of Trump/Manafort provides evidence! 


Fathertime!


And they will continue to ask how many angels dance on the head of a pin, as evidenced above.


Manafort worked with the Putin regime to elect Yanukovych.  But it was what he did later that matters.  He helped oligarchs buy up Ukrainian assets.  He called in favours to have the Yanukovych regime drop tariffs, important tax revenue for the Ukrainian government, for the benefit of U.S. multinationals.  Together with Ukrainian oligarchs, he laundered money in Ukraine, which was then used to corrupt Ukraine's judicial system, which had been cleaned up significantly under Yushchenko (I state this as one who is not a Yushchenko fan, particularly). 
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on July 31, 2016, 08:33:21 PM
Manafort worked with the Putin regime to elect Yanukovych.


Who knew Putin to be so bad in 2004? Check out Manafort on Wikpeida. He's also worked for anti Communist leaders. The guy is a hired gun and will do a good job for anybody that pays him regardless of their political affiliation.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: fathertime on July 31, 2016, 10:29:31 PM
Weren't you the one who kept pushing for a win-win in which Ukraine would let Russia  keep Crimea, Donbass, etc. in exchange for a promise from Putin that Russia would not take any more Ukrainian territory?   


Yup that was me, and Trump is with me on that issue, but that alone isn't enough to make me vote for him.... YOU are the hypocrite for supporting him, while pretending to care so much about Ukraine!   Hillary appears to be more prepared to take the harder line against Russia. 

Let me get this straight -  you are now supporting Ukraine's freedom and independence and consider Putin a bad guy? 


As usual you are confused, and making up facts cloaked as questions.  I say Putin did what he felt he had to do.


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Slumba on July 31, 2016, 10:40:55 PM
Uf we are going to attack candidates by proxy,  via their underlings; my only question is whether or not the underling has to still be alive.

If so, that cuts down greatly on the scum connected to Hillary Clinton,  since many of the most egregious, and the ones that were able to testify against her, died under mysterious circumstances.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on July 31, 2016, 10:42:45 PM
I'm not attacking Trump.  Just Manafort.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: calmissile on July 31, 2016, 10:58:09 PM
I'm not attacking Trump.  Just Manafort.

Agree!  Hopefully, Trump will wake up to Managort's history and motives in time to make rational decisions on his own.  Time will tell!
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: fathertime on July 31, 2016, 11:13:41 PM
Agree! Hopefully, Trump will wake up to Managort's history and motives in time to make rational decisions on his own.  Time will tell!
Hopefully?? You mean like "Hope and change"? 


Stop making lame excuses, unless you are pretending Trump is just a babe in the woods and doesn't know who he is dealing with.  As Marco Rubio would say  "He knows exactly what he is doing"


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BC on August 01, 2016, 03:23:55 AM
Weren't you the one who kept pushing for a win-win in which Ukraine would let Russia  keep Crimea, Donbass, etc. in exchange for a promise from Putin that Russia would not take any more Ukrainian territory? 

Let me get this straight -  you are now supporting Ukraine's freedom and independence and consider Putin a bad guy?

Gator,

IIRC I believe I mentioned that...
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on August 01, 2016, 05:38:45 AM
Agree!  Hopefully, Trump will wake up to Managort's history and motives in time to make rational decisions on his own.  Time will tell!

Manafort's history is exactly what got him the job. He knows how to raise money, improve their image regardless of what side of the fence they stand on, and he helped 4 men get elected POTUS. The guy has done more work for conservatives and anti communist leaders than he has for anything close to Putin. The journalist in the article leaves out that he's very qualified at his job and leave his readers with the impression Trump hired him with his ties to Yanukovych who is then in turn tied to Putin as the only thing on his resume. I'm sure the journalist dug hard to find out if any other Trump employees have worked for Putin and he wrote about all he's got on that topic. Hillary and Obama, after being in politics for years and having inside knowledge of Russia's antics decided to hit the reset button with Russia in 2009. Trump has never had an intelligence briefing. He has no knowledge of what other nations do to sabotage and undermine America. Once Trump learns Putin is not on board with his "Make America Great Again" program, he will probably be talking worse about Putin than he currently is about Obama.

When I get hired to do jobs, I don't know everything about my customers except what they hire me to me to do. I don't know who they vote for or if they've ever been in prison. Manafort may have went into his job of improving Yanukovych hoping to make him into a better person. He helped Yanukovych improve his image but too bad he didn't succeed in making him a better person. The Ukrainian people fortunately were able to see through Yanukovych's lies and deception. Most here failed to see how bad he was only until after the revolution.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 01, 2016, 07:37:24 AM
Actually, the fact that the left wing are pulling out all the stops regarding Trump must be good news for the Trump campaign. With a 100 days to go the Left wing media is in full flight panic mode.

Is Trump  now responsible for Manafort's employment history? I think not.

Did Manafort do anything criminally wrong during his tenure with the Ukrainian government? Not as far as I know.

It's unadulterated desperation...It's similar to giving  those Muslim parents prostituting their son's death for the Democratic cause all that air time. I'm watching this father, and now mother, campaigning for Hillary at the expense of cheapening the sacrifice their son made for his country simply to highlight they're Muslim and don't like Trump.

Makes me kinda sick to my stomach watching these so called 'parents' sell their son's honor for their own 15 minutes of fame with the liberal media. It'd be interesting to find out if they're on the Dem payroll.

My guess would be other American Muslim families, especially those serving, are horrified and embarrassed. Just when the average Muslim is trying to regain some credibility back for the religion of peace these two liberal puppets throw any semblance of their religion's integrity out the window....what a gong show. :rolleyes:

For all the parents and left wing media know the Captain might have been a Trump supporter himself.

Brass



Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Slumba on August 01, 2016, 07:55:15 AM
Actually, the fact that the left wing are pulling out all the stops regarding Trump must be good news for the Trump campaign. With a 100 days to go the Left wing media is in full flight panic mode.

Cankles McFibber, for all the hype and free media attention, is just not an attractive candidate to many people. 

Concerning the Muslim guy... reading the actual transcript of the interview with Trump shows the media is, once more, biased towards Democrats - same as they have been for the past 50-60 years.  The German term "lugenpresse", "the lying press" most certainly applies...

(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/CoyCW7WUMAAbpJI.jpg)
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 01, 2016, 08:53:12 AM
What a horrible cartoon. I can't believe you stooped to that level.   

I watched that man's speech on YouTube. He was the epitome of dignity.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 01, 2016, 09:02:25 AM

Is Trump  now responsible for Manafort's employment history? I think not.


Did I claim he was?  No.  This thread is about Paul Manafort, destroyer of Ukraine.  That is a fact.   If you want to talk about Trump, start another thread in NHB.

Quote
Did Manafort do anything criminally wrong during his tenure with the Ukrainian government? Not as far as I know.


Not criminally, but morally, as I outlined above. 


What he did had serious repercussions for Ukraine.  It lead to Maidan.  It resulted in the deaths of thousands of Ukrainians.  That may be the law of unintended consequences, but this is reality.  He didn't give a f##k about the people of Ukraine.  He benefited personally at their expense.  He is the textbook definition of a sociopath.

Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: fathertime on August 01, 2016, 09:07:35 AM
Cankles McFibber, for all the hype and free media attention, is just not an attractive candidate to many people. 

Concerning the Muslim guy... reading the actual transcript of the interview with Trump shows the media is, once more, biased towards Democrats - same as they have been for the past 50-60 years.  The German term "lugenpresse", "the lying press" most certainly applies...

(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/CoyCW7WUMAAbpJI.jpg)


In the two videos BC linked you can look at the way Hillary handled the Benghazi mother vs how Trump handled the Muslim father, you will see a big difference.  One was a caring classy individual despite being criticized, the other was a self-centered jackass.   Looks like some of the 'patriots'  'and changed men' here are channeling their inner jackass!


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: jone on August 01, 2016, 09:45:13 AM

Did I claim he was?  No.  This thread is about Paul Manafort, destroyer of Ukraine.  That is a fact.   If you want to talk about Trump, start another thread in NHB.


Not criminally, but morally, as I outlined above. 


What he did had serious repercussions for Ukraine.  It lead to Maidan.  It resulted in the deaths of thousands of Ukrainians.  That may be the law of unintended consequences, but this is reality.  He didn't give a f##k about the people of Ukraine.  He benefited personally at their expense.  He is the textbook definition of a sociopath.

Curious to know if Manafort was responsible for all of the other misdeeds done in Ukraine?  Based on your strident response, he must have been responsible for the poverty, the money given to Timoshenko, ect.  Obviously, Ukraine was a successful state prior to Manafort coming to town.

Your postings are blinded by your absolute liberalism.  Which can be a good thing.  But in this case is not.  After three years of railing that the Oligarchs are responsible for the failures in Ukraine, you are now stating that the absolute reason for the failure is a sociopath named Paul Manafort.  Sorry, but that is like too big a helping of my favorite food.  It is too much to swallow.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 01, 2016, 09:50:47 AM
People who go to foreign countries and benefit personally from that country's corruption are no better than the corrupt locals who exploit the powerless.  In fact, more so, because they have other options to make an honest living.


I didn't state Manafort is the sole reason for Ukraine's problems.  But yes, he is a sociopath who ensured Ukrainians remained poor, getting the government to reduce export tariffs because it personally benefited him (through a client) and joining in deals with oligarchs which moved Ukrainian assets into their bank accounts offshore.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Slumba on August 01, 2016, 09:51:16 AM
What a horrible cartoon. I can't believe you stooped to that level.   

I watched that man's speech on YouTube. He was the epitome of dignity.

Member of Muslim Brotherhood - check.

Connected to Hillary - check.  He works for the same well-connected law firm that handles the Clinton's taxes and other legal matters.

He's a stooge, another victim that liberals set up as a proxy to muddy the waters and appear to be hands-off attacking Trump.  Meanwhile the luegenpresse rebroadcasts the lies and covers up the truth.

BTW - the war that his son died in was opposed by Trump and voted for by Hillary.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: treadmilldude on August 01, 2016, 09:56:52 AM
Member of Muslim Brotherhood - check.

Connected to Hillary - check.  He works for the same well-connected law firm that handles the Clinton's taxes and other legal matters.

He's a stooge, another victim that liberals set up as a proxy to muddy the waters and appear to be hands-off attacking Trump.  Meanwhile the luegenpresse rebroadcasts the lies and covers up the truth.

BTW - the war that his son died in was opposed by Trump and voted for by Hillary.

Member of the Muslim Brotherhood? (Face in Hands) And here I mistakenly thought this grieving Father was actually a good man.  :(
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Muzh on August 01, 2016, 10:03:35 AM
What a horrible cartoon. I can't believe you stooped to that level.   

I watched that man's speech on YouTube. He was the epitome of dignity.


You forgot who you are talking to. He can go much lower. 8)
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: treadmilldude on August 01, 2016, 10:08:32 AM
Sorry Boethius, but this Father is not "the epitome of dignity." Any member of the Muslim Brotherhood cannot lay claim to that distinction. And just what in the bloody hell is Hillary and Bill doing hiring a member of the Muslim Brotherhood for their legal assistance? WTF??  :( I really think Billary has no morals to speak of. The woman is classless, without a conscience.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: jone on August 01, 2016, 10:10:04 AM
People who go to foreign countries and benefit personally from that country's corruption are no better than the corrupt locals who exploit the powerless.  In fact, more so, because they have other options to make an honest living.


I didn't state Manafort is the sole reason for Ukraine's problems.  But yes, he is a sociopath who ensured Ukrainians remained poor, getting the government to reduce export tariffs because it personally benefited him (through a client) and joining in deals with oligarchs which moved Ukrainian assets into their bank accounts offshore.

Gosh, I didn't know he worked for Yulia Tymoshenko?    Boe, you can't see past your keyboard on this one.  Your strident posting flies in the face of things you have written before.  Those were much more believable than that Manafort was personally responsible for Maidan.  James Carville is a perfect example of someone who has gone to different countries and worked to get a corrupt president elected.   Perhaps you should watch the movie, "Our Brand Is Crisis".  Because he worked for the Clintons, should we now discount Hillary (most of us already have)?

You are presenting an argument that flies in the face of your previous postings.  Perhaps you should drink some coffee and leave the Kool Aid alone.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on August 01, 2016, 10:15:58 AM
What he did had serious repercussions for Ukraine.  It lead to Maidan.  It resulted in the deaths of thousands of Ukrainians.  That may be the law of unintended consequences, but this is reality.  He didn't give a f##k about the people of Ukraine.  He benefited personally at their expense.  He is the textbook definition of a sociopath.


Didn't you vote for that good looking young man in Canada that Brass has accused of destroying Canada?

A few years ago you preferred Yanukovych over Yulia Tymoshenko who didn't do near as much damage to Ukraine as Yanukovych did. You were glad Yanukovych put her in jail at the time. I called him a hypocrite because he was the biggest criminal in Ukraine at the time but few people at the forum seemed to agree with me. Again, if you didn't know Yanukovych was so bad a few years ago, how do you expect Manafort to know his character a decade ago? And to claim he's a destroyer of Ukraine is a bit over the top. The guy is hired to make people into winners. If he makes a customer a better person while he's at it, great but like your article said, at the end he became disillusioned with Yanukovych just as you have after learning more about him.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Muzh on August 01, 2016, 10:30:05 AM
Didn't you vote for that good looking young man in Canada that Brass has accused of destroying Canada?

A few years ago you preferred Yanukovych over Yulia Tymoshenko who didn't do near as much damage to Ukraine as Yanukovych did. You were glad Yanukovych put her in jail at the time. I called him a hypocrite because he was the biggest criminal in Ukraine at the time but few people at the forum seemed to agree with me. Again, if you didn't know Yanukovych was so bad a few years ago, how do you expect Manafort to know his character a decade ago? And to claim he's a destroyer of Ukraine is a bit over the top. The guy is hired to make people into winners. If he makes a customer a better person while he's at it, great but like your article said, at the end he became disillusioned with Yanukovych just as you have after learning more about him.


Ay ay ay Billy.


Don't you know anything? Goldilocks was the lesser of two evils.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 01, 2016, 10:33:17 AM
Did I claim he was?  No.  This thread is about Paul Manafort, destroyer of Ukraine.  That is a fact.   If you want to talk about Trump, start another thread in NHB.

It's not even relevant to democracy in Ukraine. All it is is a thinly veiled attempt at discrediting Manafort because he's Trump's campaign manager. It's basically along the lines of the last topic "Russia Does Its Best to Elect Trump" you OP'd linking an opinion piece that tries to tie Trump to the Russians.

Not criminally, but morally, as I outlined above. 


What he did had serious repercussions for Ukraine.  It lead to Maidan.  It resulted in the deaths of thousands of Ukrainians.  That may be the law of unintended consequences, but this is reality.  He didn't give a f##k about the people of Ukraine.  He benefited personally at their expense.  He is the textbook definition of a sociopath.

Does that make Robbie Mook a sociopath as well for being Clinton's campaign manager? Clinton after all was responsible for Libya (Benghazi) and supporting the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. Both these countries experienced thousands of deaths as well.

Manafort was hired to do a job...

Paul Manafort, Donald Trump’s top adviser, and his ties to pro-Russian politicians in Ukraine

..."The relationship lasted for years leading up to Yanukovych’s 2010 presidential campaign. Manafort made Yanukovych look more respectable, working with stylists and consultants to redesign his image.

The political consultant had another important mission -- to move Yanukovych closer to Washington. Yanukovych’s team wanted a photo of President Barack Obama with Yanukovych to show that Ukraine’s president was respected in the West."...

(http://lh6.googleusercontent.com/LoLYtXyaZZ3MgdslvDdNZ7LdpdUKv3Hvc2cx3PFkznDSmcHlEhctIvk_qad7fJyJuqmx-ehbJMH5nxhQdHSgaCspGGWYxJ5rzvd9TitQs9J5BePEZ6oBHcJKO42AorHqIyHrYTxi)

www.politifact.com (http://www.politifact.com/global-news/article/2016/may/02/paul-manafort-donald-trumps-top-adviser-and-his-ti/)

This article from Politifact was sourced by Ukrainian journalists in Ukraine and although not very complementary does not indict Manafort his role in consulting for Yanukovych or his party.

Your link is way out of touch with the impact or even reality of his role in Ukraine.

Brass


Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 01, 2016, 10:36:58 AM
Gosh, I didn't know he worked for Yulia Tymoshenko?    Boe, you can't see past your keyboard on this one.  Your strident posting flies in the face of things you have written before.  Those were much more believable than that Manafort was personally responsible for Maidan.  James Carville is a perfect example of someone who has gone to different countries and worked to get a corrupt president elected.   Perhaps you should watch the movie, "Our Brand Is Crisis".  Because he worked for the Clintons, should we now discount Hillary (most of us already have)?

You are presenting an argument that flies in the face of your previous postings.  Perhaps you should drink some coffee and leave the Kool Aid alone.


Apples and oranges.


I have never claimed Tymoskenko was a better choice.  I would have no issue with Manafort working for Yanukovych as a campaign advisor, as that is what he does.  But he took it to another level.  He got in bed with Yanukovych and the oligarchs after the campaign.  He entered into business deals with them, stealing Ukrainian assets along the way.  He lobbied the Ukrainian government to drop tariffs which benefited US multinationals from whom he was receiving a paycheque, even though that position was bad for the average Ukrainian. 


Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 01, 2016, 10:41:32 AM
It's not even relevant to democracy in Ukraine. All it is is a thinly veiled attempt at discrediting Manafort because he's Trump's campaign manager. It's basically along the lines of the last topic "Russia Does Its Best to Elect Trump" you OP'd linking an opinion piece that tries to tie Trump to the Russians.


See above.  He has a long history of working with the Putinistas, and is tied to them not only as a political advisor, but as a business partner.

Quote
Does that make Robbie Mook a sociopath as well for being Clinton's campaign manager? Clinton after all was responsible for Libya (Benghazi) and supporting the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. Both these countries experienced thousands of deaths as well.


Is he selling Libyan oil and pocketing the profits in New York?  Has he entered into business deals with corrupt Libyan elits?

Quote
Manafort was hired to do a job...

Your link is way out of touch with the impact or even reality of his role in Ukraine.


His job was not to steal Ukrainian assets and move them to New York.  His job was not to use his position to have the Party of Regions remove tariffs on its most important export, for the benefit of a U.S. multinational. 


My link, and my research into him, is very much in touch with Ukraine. 
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: jone on August 01, 2016, 10:42:06 AM
He must have made cookies and delivered them to Maidan.   :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 01, 2016, 10:44:44 AM
I noted Maidan was the law of unintended consequences.  But, he had no issue working for the former KGB.  That, in and of itself, personifies evil.



Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 01, 2016, 10:47:10 AM

Ay ay ay Billy.


Don't you know anything? Goldilocks was the lesser of two evils.


I didn't state that either.


My issue is not with working on the Yanukovych campaign.  It was everything he did after that with which I have an issue.  This is not a man who has demonstrated any sort of conscience.  He is still in bed with Party of Region oligarchs.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 01, 2016, 10:50:43 AM

See above.  He has a long history of working with the Putinistas, and is tied to them not only as a political advisor, but as a business partner.


Is he selling Libyan oil and pocketing the profits in New York?  Has he entered into business deals with corrupt Libyan elits?


His job was not to steal Ukrainian assets and move them to New York.  His job was not to use his position to have the Party of Regions remove tariffs on its most important export, for the benefit of a U.S. multinational. 


My link, and my research into him, is very much in touch with Ukraine.

Nope, it's not. And I highly doubt you could prove any of what you're posting. The only case even hinting at any wrong doing I'm aware of that actually got into a court room was dismissed...

Paul Manafort Was Once Sued by Fmr. Ukrainian Prime Minister for ‘Scheming’ and ‘Money Laundering’

..."LawNewz.com did some digging into those alleged ties, and discovered that for several years Manafort was also caught up in a lawsuit filed by former Ukranian Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko. She accused Manafort and others of funneling money into the United States to help pay Ukrainian prosecutors and supporters of Viktor Yanukovych who in 2010 narrowly defeated Tymoshenko to become Ukraine’s president.  After four years of litigation, the lawsuit was dismissed in 2015 by a Manhattan federal judge. Attorneys denied Manafort had any involvement."...

..."In December 2015, the case was dismissed for good by a federal judge. The judge ruled that the the former Prime Minister could not re-file the case. LawNewz.com tried contacting Mr. Manafort about the case, but have not heard back."...

lawnewz.com (http://lawnewz.com/high-profile/that-time-paul-manafort-was-sued-by-fmr-ukrainian-prime-minister-for-scheming-and-money-laundering/)

Seems pretty clear to me. Your mileage may vary. ;)

Brass



Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Muzh on August 01, 2016, 10:53:26 AM

I didn't state that either.




I know.


I did. ;)


Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Slumba on August 01, 2016, 11:00:05 AM
I think we need more info about VP Biden's son going over to Ukraine and mysteriously becoming involved in oil and gas exploration:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/09/world/europe/corruption-ukraine-joe-biden-son-hunter-biden-ties.html

Note: NYT not considered a conservative news source.

Quote
But the credibility of the vice president’s anticorruption message may have been undermined by the association of his son, Hunter Biden, with one of Ukraine’s largest natural gas companies, Burisma Holdings, and with its owner, Mykola Zlochevsky, who was Ukraine’s ecology minister under former President Viktor F. Yanukovych before he was forced into exile.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: jone on August 01, 2016, 11:00:50 AM
Hell, I have no problem whatsoever that Manfort had his nose in the trough.  Everyone did (and does).    Unless you are playing the Trump angle, this is not even a story.  Which brings me back to my point.  Boe, it looks to me like you are trying to show how bad Trump is because he hired a paid political operative (a la James Carville, stated above).  That is the whole purpose for this thread.  Maybe we should move it into the US political section and make it for members only. 

I don't see Ms. Boethius railing against the Oligarchs, but instead separates out this one man as evidence of how corrupt Trump is.  That is a bridge too far.  (Although I do think Trump is absolutely corrupt.  But then, again, I think Clinton is worse.)
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Muzh on August 01, 2016, 11:03:52 AM


I don't see Ms. Boethius railing against the Oligarchs, but instead separates out this one man as evidence of how corrupt Trump is.  That is a bridge too far.  (Although I do think Trump is absolutely corrupt.  But then, again, I think Clinton is worse.)


You may want to double-check the archives. I know she has many times.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 01, 2016, 11:21:52 AM
Didn't you vote for that good looking young man in Canada that Brass has accused of destroying Canada?

Meanwhile, back in Canada...Gawdamn it!!! Can't the kid find more important things to be doing like running the freakin' country! ;D

(http://wpmedia.vancouversun.com/2016/06/justin-trudeau3.jpeg?quality=55&strip=all&w=840&h=630&crop=1)

(http://cdn.pinknews.co.uk/images/2016/02/image-1.jpg)

Justin Trudeau steals the show at the Vancouver Pride Parade

www.cbc.ca (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/justin-trudeau-vancouver-pride-parade-1.3702613)

Brass
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on August 01, 2016, 11:24:33 AM
A piece on Paul Manafort's role in electing Yanukovych


My issue is not with working on the Yanukovych campaign. 


The first sentence in this thread sure made it sound like you wanted us to know your concern about Manafort's role in electing Yanukovych.



Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: jone on August 01, 2016, 12:09:53 PM

You may want to double-check the archives. I know she has many times.

Yes.  Previously.  Fully agree with you.  That is my point. 
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 01, 2016, 04:52:16 PM
Hell, I have no problem whatsoever that Manfort had his nose in the trough.  Everyone did (and does).    Unless you are playing the Trump angle, this is not even a story.  Which brings me back to my point.  Boe, it looks to me like you are trying to show how bad Trump is because he hired a paid political operative (a la James Carville, stated above).  That is the whole purpose for this thread.  Maybe we should move it into the US political section and make it for members only. 

I don't see Ms. Boethius railing against the Oligarchs, but instead separates out this one man as evidence of how corrupt Trump is.  That is a bridge too far.  (Although I do think Trump is absolutely corrupt.  But then, again, I think Clinton is worse.)


This had zero to do with Trump.  Zero.  You will note this is not the first time I have posted this.  If I wanted this to be about Trump, I would have posted it in NHB.


I have posted plenty about the corrupt oligarchs.  But they can't be defeated if they are aided and abetted by corrupt Westerners.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 01, 2016, 04:53:48 PM
Nope, it's not. And I highly doubt you could prove any of what you're posting. The only case even hinting at any wrong doing I'm aware of that actually got into a court room was dismissed...

Paul Manafort Was Once Sued by Fmr. Ukrainian Prime Minister for ‘Scheming’ and ‘Money Laundering’

..."LawNewz.com did some digging into those alleged ties, and discovered that for several years Manafort was also caught up in a lawsuit filed by former Ukranian Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko. She accused Manafort and others of funneling money into the United States to help pay Ukrainian prosecutors and supporters of Viktor Yanukovych who in 2010 narrowly defeated Tymoshenko to become Ukraine’s president.  After four years of litigation, the lawsuit was dismissed in 2015 by a Manhattan federal judge. Attorneys denied Manafort had any involvement."...

..."In December 2015, the case was dismissed for good by a federal judge. The judge ruled that the the former Prime Minister could not re-file the case. LawNewz.com tried contacting Mr. Manafort about the case, but have not heard back."...

lawnewz.com (http://lawnewz.com/high-profile/that-time-paul-manafort-was-sued-by-fmr-ukrainian-prime-minister-for-scheming-and-money-laundering/)

Seems pretty clear to me. Your mileage may vary. ;)

Brass


Irrelevant to my point.  That case was by Tymoshenko, who sued due to the election.


I am no fan of Tymoshenko.


All of Manafort's personal fortune came after Yanukovych took power.  That had zero to do with Tymoshenko's lawsuit against him.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: fathertime on August 01, 2016, 06:08:26 PM
I think we need more info about VP Biden's son going over to Ukraine and mysteriously becoming involved in oil and gas exploration:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/09/world/europe/corruption-ukraine-joe-biden-son-hunter-biden-ties.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/09/world/europe/corruption-ukraine-joe-biden-son-hunter-biden-ties.html)

Note: NYT not considered a conservative news source.
..and now suddenly you care about this?  I'd have to look back in the archives but when I brought this up a year or 2 ago there didn't seem to be much concern.


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 01, 2016, 06:33:47 PM

Irrelevant to my point.  That case was by Tymoshenko, who sued due to the election.


I am no fan of Tymoshenko.


All of Manafort's personal fortune came after Yanukovych took power.  That had zero to do with Tymoshenko's lawsuit against him.

But it's not irrelevant to the point I was making in that the only instance of Manafort even being accused of any wrong doing (that I'm aware of) that got into a court room was dismissed.

And no, not all of Manafort's personal net worth came after Yanukovych took power. Paul Manafort has being sharp shooting for various world leaders for well over 30 years. He is a partner in a world class consulting firm, gets paid a very good salary and bonuses (I'd assume) and probably (I would hope considering his CV) has picked up some good investments over the years. So I doubt by the time he started working for Akhmetov in Ukraine he was penniless.

Again, I have seen nothing that would suggest he's been accused of any wrong doing over the years other than a law suit that was dismissed.

I'm sure if he'd ended up working for the Clinton campaign the media and the subsequent opinion articles would be portraying him as the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Brass

Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on August 01, 2016, 06:51:32 PM
I'm sure if he'd ended up working for the Clinton campaign the media and the subsequent opinion articles would be portraying him as the greatest thing since sliced bread.


Manafort was getting around a million a year on some jobs advising world leaders. If Hillary offered him a job first, I'm sure he'd take it and we wouldn't be seeing this thread. Politics aren't his concern. Business is. If Hillary offered me a million dollars to be her advisor, I'd take it too. Although I believe she's done corrupt things, being her advisor I may mold her into being a better person and being a better person is giving me a raise to two million dollars.  :P
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 01, 2016, 07:03:29 PM
But it's not irrelevant to the point I was making in that the only instance of Manafort even being accused of any wrong doing (that I'm aware of) that got into a court room was dismissed.


It was not dismissed because it wasn't true.  It was dismissed because the U.S. lacked jurisdiction.
Quote
And no, not all of Manafort's personal net worth came after Yanukovych took power. Paul Manafort has being sharp shooting for various world leaders for well over 30 years. He is a partner in a world class consulting firm, gets paid a very good salary and bonuses (I'd assume) and probably (I would hope considering his CV) has picked up some good investments over the years. So I doubt by the time he started working for Akhmetov in Ukraine he was penniless.


I don't think I stated all his personal net worth came after Yanukovych came to power.  I stated he became rich in entering into business deals with oligarchs who were looting Ukraine.  He was among that "elite" group.

Quote
Again, I have seen nothing that would suggest he's been accused of any wrong doing over the years other than a law suit that was dismissed.


He helped funnel money from Ukraine into US real estate, and he personally benefited from the US investments.

Quote
I'm sure if he'd ended up working for the Clinton campaign the media and the subsequent opinion articles would be portraying him as the greatest thing since sliced bread.


I care not one whit what the Clinton campaign would allege.  I would be posting the same thing about a Democrat who was in bed with Ukrainian oligarchs.  Yes, Hunter Biden is in that group.


Why you feel a need to protect a sleazy political operative who has made millions aiding and abetting the former KGB, now looting the countries that they run or did run, to the detriment of the tens of millions living there in poverty, is beyond me.

Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on August 01, 2016, 08:38:04 PM
He helped funnel money from Ukraine into US real estate, and he personally benefited from the US investments.


I'm currently bidding a job that is worth 1.2-1.4 million dollars for the scope of work I'll provide with a profit of at least $100,000. The development company consist of Americans that find foreign investors to build in America. This project will be funded by Chinese guys and the projects overall value is around $20 million. I know nothing about the developers or their investors and I'll probably never will unless they are in the news 10 years from now pictured in handcuffs. But if I'm low bidder and the job is offered to me, I'm going to take it. I can imagine these Chinese rich guys are investing in America because if they do, they get a green card and their money will be tied up in a safe place just in case the Chinese Communist government decides to take everything they got. If the American government let this money, including Manafort's investor money, in to build America and doesn't seize it, I'm not going to question if the money is bad.

Below is an article talking about Manafort. He tried to bring Yanukovych closer to America and Europe. He failed in his mission. Remember when everybody thought Yanu was going to make a deal with Europe and the last second he made a deal with Putin? Photo below of Obama meeting with Yanukovych. Obama guilty too for socializing with Yanu?

http://www.politifact.com/global-news/article/2016/may/02/paul-manafort-donald-trumps-top-adviser-and-his-ti/

Why you feel a need to protect a sleazy political operative who has made millions aiding and abetting the former KGB, now looting the countries that they run or did run, to the detriment of the tens of millions living there in poverty, is beyond me.

There is nothing Manafort can do that Obama and Hillary can do 100x better or worse. Syria is much worse off than Ukraine. Obama/Hillary decided to get involved there without being fully committed. The war lasted years with tens of millions losing their homes and fleeing the country. A quarter million dead and a terrorist organization grew out of the mess that has hit western countries taken land the size of Belgium. Protecting Manafort is a lesser sin than protecting Obama. Manafort can't make political decisions but if he could, I doubt he recommend Yanu to keep the Ukrainian citizens in poverty.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 02, 2016, 06:33:59 AM
It was not dismissed because it wasn't true.  It was dismissed because the U.S. lacked jurisdiction.

It was litigated for four years. The judge also ruled that Tymoshenko had failed to adequately demonstrate that Manafort’s business dealings with Firtash constituted a conscious effort to abet intimidation and harassment against his political critics in Ukraine.

I don't think I stated all his personal net worth came after Yanukovych came to power.  I stated he became rich in entering into business deals with oligarchs who were looting Ukraine.  He was among that "elite" group.

..."All of Manafort's personal fortune came after Yanukovych took power."...
That is what you posted and what I answered to. And even after your clarifying your statement the answer is still no. He was wealthy prior to his stint in Ukraine.

He helped funnel money from Ukraine into US real estate, and he personally benefited from the US investments.

And this is illegal how?

I care not one whit what the Clinton campaign would allege.  I would be posting the same thing about a Democrat who was in bed with Ukrainian oligarchs.  Yes, Hunter Biden is in that group.

And my response is the same. Your link would not have been written and you wouldn't be posting this thread if Manafort were not Trump's campaign manager.

Case in point: Tad Devine, who consulted on the Bernie Sanders campaign, also worked for Yanukovych in almost the same role as Manafort ...Not a word about him in the media.

Why you feel a need to protect a sleazy political operative who has made millions aiding and abetting the former KGB, now looting the countries that they run or did run, to the detriment of the tens of millions living there in poverty, is beyond me.

Because the premise of your link isn't true. It's just not based in fact. It's a smear designed to discredit an individual working for and by extension a political campaign/candidate you and the author of your article disagree with.

Even the tone of your quoted comment betrays a certain bias and I dare say condescension;  I do not feel the need to protect Manafort. I would however debate a link or premise that is designed to malign an individual especially when there is nothing to substantiate the allegations.


Brass

Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Slumba on August 02, 2016, 09:48:11 AM
I can only find, exacly ONE mention of Manafort on this forum, pre-Trump:

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16536.msg345323#msg345323

It is a message from Boethius pointing out to LT that Yanuk was employing Americans (LT alleged that Yanuk, was anti-American).

Now, maybe the search engine is wrong and there were more mentions of him, but...

Manafort, no doubt one of several paid advisers to Yanuk, was never even mentioned on this board as anyone important to Ukraine, until after Trump chooses Manafort as one of his main political advisers.  Then Boethius, certainly entitled to have a political opinion as all of us are, posts this.

Boethius, are you not conversant to fluent in Ukrainian, Russian, and of course English?

You would have had Manafort on your radar long ago, due to mentions of him in the Ukr. or Russian press, well before any English-language sources of reporting had even had the chance to pick up the story. 

You have been reading / studying / getting on the ground updates about Maidan since it happened; but no mention of Manafort all this time?

You see how it looks, given you have made no secret of your disdain for Trump?
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Muzh on August 02, 2016, 10:00:50 AM
I can only find, exacly ONE mention of Manafort on this forum, pre-Trump:

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16536.msg345323#msg345323 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16536.msg345323#msg345323)

It is a message from Boethius pointing out to LT that Yanuk was employing Americans (LT alleged that Yanuk, was anti-American).

Now, maybe the search engine is wrong and there were more mentions of him, but...

Manafort, no doubt one of several paid advisers to Yanuk, was never even mentioned on this board as anyone important to Ukraine, until after Trump chooses Manafort as one of his main political advisers.  Then Boethius, certainly entitled to have a political opinion as all of us are, posts this.

Boethius, are you not conversant to fluent in Ukrainian, Russian, and of course English?

You would have had Manafort on your radar long ago, due to mentions of him in the Ukr. or Russian press, well before any English-language sources of reporting had even had the chance to pick up the story. 

You have been reading / studying / getting on the ground updates about Maidan since it happened; but no mention of Manafort all this time?

You see how it looks, given you have made no secret of your disdain for Trump?


Keep searching because I do remember him being discussed.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Slumba on August 02, 2016, 10:27:07 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/oX8aoQh.png)

This is what I used in the search engine. 

If am willing to be shown as wrong, but show me the thread - maybe the search engine doesn't find everything.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on August 02, 2016, 10:59:30 AM
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16536.msg345323#msg345323

It is a message from Boethius pointing out to LT that Yanuk was employing Americans (LT alleged that Yanuk, was anti-American).


So Yanu was accused of being Communist and anti American so Boe offered proof that Yanu hired an American as if he's not standing on the wrong side of the fence.

I took a look at Manafort's old Wiki article and in 2008 the article stated that Yanu fired Manafort as his advisor after the 2004 elections because Yanu did poorly. Now Trump hires Manafort and there are all kinds of new stuff written on Manafort in 2016 that implies he's in bed with Putin and is stealing from and starving millions of Ukrainians.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 02, 2016, 03:57:23 PM
It was litigated for four years. The judge also ruled that Tymoshenko had failed to adequately demonstrate that Manafort’s business dealings with Firtash constituted a conscious effort to abet intimidation and harassment against his political critics in Ukraine.


No, it wasn't litigated for years.  When it came before the court, it was dismissed for lack of jurisdiction.  That is not the same as suggesting the case had no merit.  It just means the court refused to hear the case because the forum conveniens was not the United States.  It was Ukraine.
Quote
..."All of Manafort's personal fortune came after Yanukovych took power."...
That is what you posted and what I answered to. And even after your clarifying your statement the answer is still no. He was wealthy prior to his stint in Ukraine.

And this is illegal how?


Stealing Ukrainian state assets and laundering them through U.S. real estate is illegal.  Firtash is rich from stealing state assets (Russian gas paid for by Ukrainian state company Naftogaz).  Tymoshenko is rich in the same way.   That is what Manafort was doing. 
Quote
And my response is the same. Your link would not have been written and you wouldn't be posting this thread if Manafort were not Trump's campaign manager.


Irrelevant.  He has gained national attention because he is Trump's campaign manager.  I don't care about Trump.  My point is about Manafort.
Quote
Case in point: Tad Devine, who consulted on the Bernie Sanders campaign, also worked for Yanukovych in almost the same role as Manafort ...Not a word about him in the media.


Perhaps he didn't launder money for her. 

Quote
Because the premise of your link isn't true. It's just not based in fact. It's a smear designed to discredit an individual working for and by extension a political campaign/candidate you and the author of your article disagree with.


It is true Manafort purchased real estate with Firtash.


It is true Firtash is an oligarch.


It is true Firtash got rich stealing Ukrainian state assets.


It is true Manafort continues to work for Russian clients.


It is true that Yanukovych, and Firtash, are former Soviet nomenklatura.

Quote
Even the tone of your quoted comment betrays a certain bias and I dare say condescension;  I do not feel the need to protect Manafort. I would however debate a link or premise that is designed to malign an individual especially when there is nothing to substantiate the allegations.


See above.  Yes, I am biased against the former nomenklatura and the former KGB, both of whom are guilty of massive damage to the souls of millions, and who continue to wreak havoc on millions of ordinary individuals in Russia and Ukraine.  So sue me if I find those willing to work with this scum less than palatable.



Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 02, 2016, 03:59:59 PM
I can only find, exacly ONE mention of Manafort on this forum, pre-Trump:

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16536.msg345323#msg345323 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16536.msg345323#msg345323)

It is a message from Boethius pointing out to LT that Yanuk was employing Americans (LT alleged that Yanuk, was anti-American).

Now, maybe the search engine is wrong and there were more mentions of him, but...

Manafort, no doubt one of several paid advisers to Yanuk, was never even mentioned on this board as anyone important to Ukraine, until after Trump chooses Manafort as one of his main political advisers.  Then Boethius, certainly entitled to have a political opinion as all of us are, posts this.

Boethius, are you not conversant to fluent in Ukrainian, Russian, and of course English?

You would have had Manafort on your radar long ago, due to mentions of him in the Ukr. or Russian press, well before any English-language sources of reporting had even had the chance to pick up the story. 

You have been reading / studying / getting on the ground updates about Maidan since it happened; but no mention of Manafort all this time?

You see how it looks, given you have made no secret of your disdain for Trump?


The press in Ukraine did not focus on American advisors, but all of Ukraine's politicians use them.


No one in Ukraine reported on Manafort's business interests with Ukrainian oligarchs.  That is what is important here.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: jone on August 02, 2016, 04:52:08 PM
Sorry Boe. 

I ain't buying it.  You brought out Manafort to belittle Trump.  You totally ignored my James Carville reference as it didn't appeal to your sense of justice even though they produced a major motion picture about it.  Then you told us all how Anne Applebaum was representative of an unbiased perspective on Eastern Europe.  Now we see Anne Applebaum's Clinton endorsement two days ago in the Washington Post.  If the troops aren't flying the liberal flag, you aren't saluting them. 

Now, having said that, I despise Trump's idea of recognizing Crimea.  I have no stomach for him ignoring the plight of Ukraine.  His limited knowledge of these issues demonstrates that he has a lot to learn before becoming commander of the US armed forces (if he ever makes it). 

Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 02, 2016, 04:57:50 PM
Oh, so now you are a mind reader?

Believe me, my post had zero to do with Donald Trump.  If I wanted to belittle Trump, I would do so directly.  AFAIK, Paul Manafort was not working for Trump when he was laundering money for Ukrainian oligarchs.

When James Carville starts laundering funds for Ukrainian oligarchs, or if that is disclosed, I'll open a thread about him.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 02, 2016, 05:16:26 PM
I find it somewhat humorous that posters want to turn this into yet another useless U.S. politics thread.

The point is that here is about the character of an individual who made deals with ruthless "businessmen", the latter of whom:

(a)  two decades ago, were devoted commies, KGB officers, and komsomol members rallying against capitalism and calling for fighting the "endless war" until capitalism was finally "vanquished"; and
(b)got rich not from producing anything of value, or in providing anything creative or useful, but by stealing state assets, and settling their disputes by rubbing out their opponents.

Those "businessmen" have been fighting to launder their assets out of Ukraine for two decades.  The EU was closed to them.  The U.S. largely was as well.  Why do you think Ukrainian real estate prices were so high?  And then, you get some dubious American facilitating that money laundering via U.S. real estate.   How is this any different from being in bed with drug dealers?    This is who you are defending.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: jone on August 02, 2016, 05:30:38 PM
Oh, so now you are a mind reader?

Believe me, my post had zero to do with Donald Trump.  If I wanted to belittle Trump, I would do so directly.  AFAIK, Paul Manafort was not working for Trump when he was laundering money for Ukrainian oligarchs.

When James Carville starts laundering funds for Ukrainian oligarchs, or if that is disclosed, I'll open a thread about him.

Impossible to prove intent, Counselor.  So we just look at the evidence.   :)
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 02, 2016, 05:34:28 PM
Actually, no, it is not impossible to prove intent.  Were that the case, there would be no criminal convictions.


I know why I posted it.  I don't care one way or the other who wins the U.S. election.  Neither candidate will affect how I, or my family, lives and therefore, is irrelevant to me.  But as a diaspora Ukrainian with relatives living across that country, the future of Ukraine is extremely important to me.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on August 02, 2016, 05:36:18 PM
Impossible to prove intent, Counselor.  So we just look at the evidence.   :)


I took you at your word when you told me you didn't have the intention of shutting down pitbull.  I accepted it and even apologized.  I didn't see why you would lie about your intention.  I don't know why you can't accept Bo's statement like I accepted yours.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: jone on August 02, 2016, 05:55:58 PM

I took you at your word when you told me you didn't have the intention of shutting down pitbull.  I accepted it and even apologized.  I didn't see why you would lie about your intention.  I don't know why you can't accept Bo's statement like I accepted yours.

Yup.  I can.  And will.  That last post was just a little fun, anyway. 
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Slumba on August 02, 2016, 06:00:27 PM
Boethius, I am not attacking you ... just pointing out that is kind of "convenient" that we are hearing about Manafort now that he is advising a Presidential candidate; and we didn't hear about him before.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on August 02, 2016, 06:03:14 PM
No one in Ukraine reported on Manafort's business interests with Ukrainian oligarchs.  That is what is important here.


Manafort didn't come to Ukraine with the idea of ripping off the country. An oligarch was looking for a man for a job and an American law firm recommended Manafort. If Manafort was never recommended, the man chosen may have been someone else. As fate had it, Manafort got the call and took the job. Later the oligarch recommended Yanu to hire Manfort for his presidential campaign. Yanu did poorly in the 2004 election since he didn't like to follow good advice and fired Manafort as the scapegoat according to the article below that was written by a Ukrainian news source in 2007. Of course later Yanu hires Manafort again and succeeded in getting elected president. Manafort watch Yanu in action and as your first article states, he grew disillusioned with Yanu. If Manafort is the monster you claim he is, he wouldn't have a conscience. Sometimes I wonder how lawyers can sleep well at night representing real monsters but you guys say they have a right to representation and the assumption of innocence. So far no government has concluded Manafort belongs in prison.

http://www.unian.info/politics/66507-yanukovych-sacked-his-american-spin-doctor.html

Believe me, my post had zero to do with Donald Trump.  If I wanted to belittle Trump, I would do so directly.  AFAIK, Paul Manafort was not working for Trump when he was laundering money for Ukrainian oligarchs.


You happened to choose an article that only came out because of Trump. It fails to mention the right reasons Trump would hire Manafort. You failed to choose an article on Manfort that doesn't mention Trump. You failed to choose an article that shows Manaforts work for good people. The article talks all bad about Manafort except when they state Manafort became disillusioned with Yanu. The article leaves it's readers believing Trump hired a man that did business with corrupt people and is in bed with Putin and his cronies. The article leaves it's readers believing Trump likes Putin because people reading the NY Times article isn't interested in Manafort at all. There's no doubt in my mind Trump hired Manafort because he successfully worked on the campaigns of 4 previous POTUS, including Reagan's. The authors of the article conveniently left that out when talking about Manafort's history.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 02, 2016, 06:06:43 PM

Boethius, I am not attacking you ... just pointing out that is kind of "convenient" that we are hearing about Manafort now that he is advising a Presidential candidate; and we didn't hear about him before.

The convenience comes via the American press, not me.  Manafort has been the subject of criticism in the past, for his lobbying efforts on behalf of the who's who of dictators and shady leaders.

http://cloudfront-files-1.publicintegrity.org/legacy_projects/pdf_reports/THETORTURERSLOBBY.pdf (http://cloudfront-files-1.publicintegrity.org/legacy_projects/pdf_reports/THETORTURERSLOBBY.pdf)

But the U.S. press wasn't interested in this history in the past.  Had the NYT reported on Manafort's business dealings with Ukrainian oligarchs 2 years ago, I would have posted a link then.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on August 02, 2016, 06:20:07 PM
Manafort has been the subject of criticism in the past, for his lobbying efforts on behalf of the who's who of dictators and shady leaders.

http://cloudfront-files-1.publicintegrity.org/legacy_projects/pdf_reports/THETORTURERSLOBBY.pdf (http://cloudfront-files-1.publicintegrity.org/legacy_projects/pdf_reports/THETORTURERSLOBBY.pdf)


As your link shows, Manafort made millions for lobbying on behalf of shady leaders in the 90's. He became rich. But you have to remember the Clinton administration gave many more millions to those shady leaders. Manafort can discuss the shady leaders causes but ultimately our government under Clinton felt the causes were just. A shady leader may be torturing his political foes but America may be interested in dealing with that leader if he's a strong anti Communist or anti terrorism and advances America's interest. For every dollar Manafort received from shady leaders, Bill Clinton gave those shady leaders thousands. For every dollar Manafort received from people in the FSU close to Putin, the Clinton foundation received thousands.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 03, 2016, 07:49:16 AM
No, it wasn't litigated for years.  When it came before the court, it was dismissed for lack of jurisdiction.  That is not the same as suggesting the case had no merit.  It just means the court refused to hear the case because the forum conveniens was not the United States.  It was Ukraine.

..."Yulia Tymoshenko. She accused Manafort and others of funneling money into the United States to help pay Ukrainian prosecutors and supporters of Viktor Yanukovych who in 2010 narrowly defeated Tymoshenko to become Ukraine’s president. After four years of litigation, the lawsuit was dismissed in 2015 by a Manhattan federal judge. Attorneys denied Manafort had any involvement."...

lawnewz.com (http://lawnewz.com/high-profile/that-time-paul-manafort-was-sued-by-fmr-ukrainian-prime-minister-for-scheming-and-money-laundering/)

And a Judge also ruling that Tymoshenko had failed to adequately demonstrate that Manafort’s business dealings with Firtash constituted a conscious effort to abet intimidation and harassment against his political critics in Ukraine is exactly suggesting the case had no merit. Not "It just means the court refused to hear the case because the forum conveniens was not the United States."

I'd be interested in reading your sources you have to back up your assertions because all the articles I'm looking at say four years litigation and a failure to demonstrate any intent to aid or abet.

Stealing Ukrainian state assets and laundering them through U.S. real estate is illegal.  Firtash is rich from stealing state assets (Russian gas paid for by Ukrainian state company Naftogaz).  Tymoshenko is rich in the same way.   That is what Manafort was doing. 

Evidence?

Irrelevant.  He has gained national attention because he is Trump's campaign manager.  I don't care about Trump.  My point is about Manafort.


No it's not irrelevant. I believe your link and this thread exist directly as a result of Manafort being Trump's campaign manager.


Perhaps he didn't launder money for her. 

A non answer. Levine worked for Yanukovych as Manafort did. My comment was Tad Levine who consulted on the Bernie Sanders campaign, also worked for Yanukovych in almost the same role as Manafort ...Not a word about him in the media.

Why is Levine and other Americans who worked for Yanukovych not being scrutinized as Manafort all of a sudden is?

It is true Manafort purchased real estate with Firtash.


It is true Firtash is an oligarch.


It is true Firtash got rich stealing Ukrainian state assets.


It is true Manafort continues to work for Russian clients.


It is true that Yanukovych, and Firtash, are former Soviet nomenklatura.

And once again...If there is any evidence what so ever linking Manafort to any illegal activity in Ukraine I can't find it. Maybe you can post some links because as far as I can tell none of what you've posted regarding Manafort can be substantiated.

See above.  Yes, I am biased against the former nomenklatura and the former KGB, both of whom are guilty of massive damage to the souls of millions, and who continue to wreak havoc on millions of ordinary individuals in Russia and Ukraine.  So sue me if I find those willing to work with this scum less than palatable.

I'd say your bias is misplaced and wasted on someone (Manafort) who  as far as I can tell was not involved in the damage to the souls of millions.

At the very least Manafort is certainly is not the "Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy" as your subject title purports.

Brass

Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on August 03, 2016, 08:15:34 AM
Levine worked for Yanukovych as Manafort did. My comment was Tad Levine who consulted on the Bernie Sanders campaign, also worked for Yanukovych in almost the same role as Manafort ...Not a word about him in the media.

Why is Levine and other Americans who worked for Yanukovych not being scrutinized as Manafort all of a sudden is?


If you go to Wikipedia and read about Levine and Manafort, they led similar paths in life, helped various leaders around the world improve their image and get them elected. The difference is Levine is a Democrat and Manafort is a Republican.

This kind of bias reporting from the media works with stupid people. It happened again yesterday. A story broke out that Obama secretly send $400 million dollars to Iran that was under sanctions in January. Obama isn't even denying that happened although he disagrees it was done for the exchange of 4 hostages. Although Obama doesn't deny he sent $400 million, if you Google the story with ABC, NBC, CBS, and CNN, none of them have picked up the story. They want their readers/viewers to continue to think Obama and the Democrats can't do anything wrong.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BC on August 03, 2016, 08:19:33 AM
This kind of bias reporting from the media works with stupid people. It happened again yesterday. A story broke out that Obama secretly send $400 million dollars to Iran that was under sanctions in January. Obama isn't even denying that happened although he disagrees it was done for the exchange of 4 hostages. Although Obama doesn't deny he sent $400 million, if you Google the story with ABC, NBC, CBS, and CNN, none of them have picked up the story. They want their readers/viewers to continue to think Obama and the Democrats can't do anything wrong.

I'll ask the same thing I asked FP in the other thread regarding his opinion on media..  Isn't it such democratic?
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Muzh on August 03, 2016, 09:06:32 AM
Actually, no, it is not impossible to prove intent.  Were that the case, there would be no criminal convictions.


I know why I posted it.  I don't care one way or the other who wins the U.S. election.  Neither candidate will affect how I, or my family, lives and therefore, is irrelevant to me.  But as a diaspora Ukrainian with relatives living across that country, the future of Ukraine is extremely important to me.


Hey Counselor, I think you'll love this article I found the other day. It tries to clarify intent in the best of examples.  ;)


http://www.filmsforaction.org/articles/law-professors-epic-response-to-black-lives-matter-shirt-complaint/
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 03, 2016, 01:56:18 PM

Hey Counselor, I think you'll love this article I found the other day. It tries to clarify intent in the best of examples.  ;)


http://www.filmsforaction.org/articles/law-professors-epic-response-to-black-lives-matter-shirt-complaint/ (http://www.filmsforaction.org/articles/law-professors-epic-response-to-black-lives-matter-shirt-complaint/)


Thanks.  That was epic. 8)
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 03, 2016, 03:18:14 PM
..."Yulia Tymoshenko. She accused Manafort and others of funneling money into the United States to help pay Ukrainian prosecutors and supporters of Viktor Yanukovych who in 2010 narrowly defeated Tymoshenko to become Ukraine’s president. After four years of litigation, the lawsuit was dismissed in 2015 by a Manhattan federal judge. Attorneys denied Manafort had any involvement."...lawnewz.com (http://lawnewz.com/high-profile/that-time-paul-manafort-was-sued-by-fmr-ukrainian-prime-minister-for-scheming-and-money-laundering/)And a Judge also ruling that Tymoshenko had failed to adequately demonstrate that Manafort’s business dealings with Firtash constituted a conscious effort to abet intimidation and harassment against his political critics in Ukraine is exactly suggesting the case had no merit. Not "It just means the court refused to hear the case because the forum conveniens was not the United States."


No decision was made on the triable issue.  The matter was dismissed for lack of jurisdiction.
Quote


I'd be interested in reading your sources you have to back up your assertions because all the articles I'm looking at say four years litigation and a failure to demonstrate any intent to aid or abet.

Evidence?


My source is the judgment(s) itself.  It is on a subscription only site.

IMHO, the lawsuit was never about assets.  It was about Tymoshenko's arrest and detention.  The assets were added as an allegation in an attempt to bring the lawsuit under RICO, thereby giving U.S. courts jurisdiction.  But in essence, the lawsuit was attempting to get a U.S. court to interfere in domestic Ukrainian criminal law (charges against Tymoshenko).  That is why it was dismissed.  How could a U.S. court make any determination about Tymoshenko's arrest by Ukrainian prosecutors?

At the same time that this lawsuit was launched, Tymoshenko also launched litigation in the EU's human rights court.  That court did find in Tymoshenko's favour.


Frankly, I believe Tymoshenko was told by her legal advisors at the outset that the lawsuit would be dismissed.  The purpose of that lawsuit was not to obtain the relief sought.  It was to keep the issue of her detention in the media/public eye.

Quote
No it's not irrelevant. I believe your link and this thread exist directly as a result of Manafort being Trump's campaign manager.


What you think is your choice.  Until you are able to get into my head you cannot know my intention in starting this thread.  But I will repeat it.  I do not give a (pardon the bad language)  f##k who wins the U.S. election.  Do I like Trump?  No, because he is a misogynist who appeals to the worst, rather than the best, in people.  If Americans decide that they want that type of individual to lead their nation, that is their choice.  It will not affect my daily life in any way whatsoever.  It will not affect my healthcare, my ability to read books and online materials, my ability to take long walks, to cook for my family, to spend time with my husband, or to be involved in my community. 

As I have posted, had I wanted to have yet another political thread, I would have opened this in NHB.  So please do not suggest that I don't know why I started this thread.

Quote

A non answer. Levine worked for Yanukovych as Manafort did. My comment was Tad Levine who consulted on the Bernie Sanders campaign, also worked for Yanukovych in almost the same role as Manafort ...Not a word about him in the media.


I repeat.  Did Levine launder money for Ukrainian oligarchs? 


"Non answer" means "I don't like your answer".

Quote
Why is Levine and other Americans who worked for Yanukovych not being scrutinized as Manafort all of a sudden is?


Because (a) Manafort has a long history of lobbying for corrupt dictators and regimes; and (b) Manafort has made business deals with both Ukrainian and Russian oligarchs, all of whom are attempting to launder their money to secure it.

If you believe Mr. Levine's work in Ukraine is worthy of a thread, go ahead and open a thread devoted to him.  I am not Fox News, and therefore am not required to be "fair and balanced" in choosing thread topics.

Manafort also started a company, Pericles Emerging Markets Partners, which was used as an offshore vehicle to launder money for oligarchs such as Oleg Deripaska, who is prohibited from investing in the U.S. (and was at the time Pericles as established) because of Deripaska's links to organized crime. 

Quote
And once again...If there is any evidence what so ever linking Manafort to any illegal activity in Ukraine I can't find it. Maybe you can post some links because as far as I can tell none of what you've posted regarding Manafort can be substantiated.


I didn't say what Manafort did in Ukraine was illegal.  I said it was immoral.
Quote

I'd say your bias is misplaced and wasted on someone (Manafort) who  as far as I can tell was not involved in the damage to the souls of millions.


When you are involved in aiding oligarchs who have become rich by stealing a nation's wealth move their money abroad, then yes, you are damaging the souls of the millions of Ukrainians who paid for those assets.  Because those millions lack adequate healthcare, education, and even food due to the theft of their state's wealth, aided and abetted by immoral Westerners.
Quote

At the very least Manafort is certainly is not the "Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy" as your subject title purports.


He used his influence with Yanukovych's regime to benefit his clients (such as Cargill) at the expense of the average Ukrainian.

He remade the image of a former KGB officer (well, a related organization) and helped get him elected.  Whether he knew that individual would trample the rights of Ukrainians, dismiss judges and replace them with his handpicked cronies, clamp down on freedom of the press (Ukraine's media was always free, and, since Yanukovych, it is now largely controlled by oligarchs), and order the shooting of demonstrators on Maidan is irrelevant.  The end result was that Ukrainian democracy was badly damaged during the presidency of Yanukovych, and Paul Manafort had
a hand in achieving those results.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: krimster2 on August 03, 2016, 04:14:40 PM
here's a link to the lawsuit

http://freebeacon.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/manafort-complaint-2.pdf
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 03, 2016, 04:42:01 PM
Here are headnotes on dismissal of the claim -

Filed:9/18/2015
OPINION AND ORDER: Given that this is now Plaintiffs' fourth unsuccessful attempt to plead RICO claims, and given that the changes in the TAC fail to remedy the deficiencies found in the SAC, the Court declines to grant Plaintiffs yet another opportunity to amend their pleadings. When further amendment is likely to be futile, leave to amend need not be granted. See De Jesus v. Sears, Roebuck & Co., 87 F.3d 65, 72 (2d Cir. 1996) ("Plaintiffs were accorded four opportunities to plead their claims in this case, and the deficiencies in their federal claims are fundamental. The district court did not abuse its discretion by refusing them a fifth opportunity." (internal citations omitted)); see also Ruffolo v. Oppenheimer & Co., 987 F.2d 129, 131; BNP Paribas Mortgage Corp. v. Bank of Am., N.A., No. 09 Civ. 9783, 2013 WL 6484727, at 6* (S.D.N.Y. Dec. 9, 2013) (Sweet, J.). The changes from the SAC to the TAC are largely superficial or irrelevant and have not remedied the fundamental defects identified by this Court in Tymoshenko II. For the foregoing reasons, the TAC is dismissed . The Clerk of Court is directed to close this case. (As further set forth in this Order) (Signed by Judge Kimba M. Wood on 9/18/2015) (kl) Modified on 9/18/2015 (kl). (Entered: 09/18/2015)

Filed: 8/28/2013
OPINION & ORDER re: #103574 66 MOTION to Dismiss for Lack of Jurisdiction and For Failure to State a Claim filed by Nadra Bank. For the foregoing reasons, Nadra Bank's motion to dismiss Plaintiffs' Amended Complaint is GRANTED,  as to Plaintiffs' ATS claim and  with respect to Plaintiffs' RICO claim. This Opinion resolves Docket Entry 66. (Signed by Judge Kimba M. Wood on 8/28/2013) (lmb) Modified on 9/16/2013 (sdi). (Entered: 08/28/2013)


Filed: 3/28/2013
OPINION & ORDER: The Court GRANTS Defendant RUE's motion to dismiss Plaintiffs' claims for lack of personal jurisdiction. [Dkt. No. 56]. Plaintiffs' claims are dismissed . (Signed by Judge Kimba M. Wood on 3/26/2013)

Filed: 3/27/2013
OPINION & ORDER: #103054 The Court GRANTS Defendant RUE's motion to dismiss Plaintiffs' claims for lack of personal jurisdiction. [Dkt. No. 56]. Plaintiffs' claims are dismissed . (Signed by Judge Kimba M. Wood on 3/26/2013) (ft) Modified on 4/1/2013 (jab). (Entered: 03/27/2013)

Filed: 4/18/2013
ORDER: The Court denies Tymoshenko's motion for several reasons, not least of which is that the Court lacks personal jurisdiction over the Ukrainian government. Tymoshenko has also entirely failed to suggest her claim has any likelihood of success on the merits. First, Tymoshenko has failed to demonstrate why the interrogation of Kyrychenko is at all related to her civil claims. Second, contrary to Tymoshenko's assertion, the Treaty includes no affirmative mandate to notify the DOJ about a pending investigation. Rather, the Treaty supplies procedures for requesting assistance in foreign proceedings; it does not require Ukraine to involve the DOJ in Ukrainian criminal investigations involving witnesses located on U.S. soil Consequently, Tymoshenko's request for a TRO is DENIED. (Signed by Judge Kimba M. Wood on 4/18/2013) (ft) Modified on 4/18/2013 (ft). (Entered: 04/18/2013)

http://ecf.nysd.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/show_doc.pl?caseid=378317&de_seq_num=426&dm_id=13666325&doc_num=118 (http://ecf.nysd.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/show_doc.pl?caseid=378317&de_seq_num=426&dm_id=13666325&doc_num=118)
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 03, 2016, 06:44:57 PM


No decision was made on the triable issue.  The matter was dismissed for lack of jurisdiction.


My source is the judgment(s) itself.  It is on a subscription only site.

I'm sorry but this is simply not true on both counts...

The transcript...

www.leagle.com (http://www.leagle.com/decision/In%20FDCO%2020130327G74/TYMOSHENKO%20v.%20FIRTASH)

The judgment...

YULIA TYMOSHENKO and JOHN DOES 1 through 50, on behalf of themselves and all those similarly situated, Plaintiffs, v. DMYTRO FIRTASH, et al., Defendants.


United States District Court, S.D. New York.

March 26, 2013.

KIMBA M. WOOD, District Judge.

Former Ukrainian Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko ("Tymoshenko") brings this action on behalf of herself and other former government officials (collectively, "Plaintiffs") for arbitrary detention and political persecution, allegedly in violation of their human rights. Plaintiffs' Amended Complaint ("AC") alleges claims under the Alien Tort Statute, 28 U.S.C. § 1350 ("ATS"), the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 1961-1968 ("RICO"), and state law for breach of fiduciary duty and malicious prosecution. [Dkt. No. 23]. Defendants include Ukrainian government officials and corporations (collectively, "the Ukrainian Defendants"), as well as individuals and corporations based in the United States, including CMZ Ventures, LLC ("CMZ"), the Dynamic Group ("Dynamic"), Barbara Ann Holdings, LLC ("BAH"), Vulcan Properties, Inc. ("Vulcan"), and individuals Paul Manafort ("Manafort") and Brad Zackson ("Zackson") (collectively, the "U.S. Defendants").

Presently before the Court is the U.S. Defendants' motion to dismiss the AC pursuant to Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 12(b)(6).1 [Dkt. Nos. 44, 50]. For the following reasons, the U.S. Defendants' motion is GRANTED.

II. LEGAL STANDARD

To survive a Rule 12(b)(6) motion to dismiss, a plaintiff must plead facts sufficient "to state a claim to relief that is plausible on its face." Bell Atl. Corp. v. Twombly, 550 U.S. 544, 570 (2007). A claim is facially plausible when the factual allegations "allow[] the court to draw the reasonable inference that the defendant is liable for the misconduct alleged." Ashcroft, 556 U.S. at 678. Where a plaintiff has failed to "nudge" a claim "across the line from conceivable to plausible," a district court must dismiss the complaint.

IMHO, the lawsuit was never about assets.  It was about Tymoshenko's arrest and detention.  The assets were added as an allegation in an attempt to bring the lawsuit under RICO, thereby giving U.S. courts jurisdiction.  But in essence, the lawsuit was attempting to get a U.S. court to interfere in domestic Ukrainian criminal law (charges against Tymoshenko).  That is why it was dismissed.  How could a U.S. court make any determination about Tymoshenko's arrest by Ukrainian prosecutors?

At the same time that this lawsuit was launched, Tymoshenko also launched litigation in the EU's human rights court.  That court did find in Tymoshenko's favour.[/font]

Frankly, I believe Tymoshenko was told by her legal advisors at the outset that the lawsuit would be dismissed.  The purpose of that lawsuit was not to obtain the relief sought.  It was to keep the issue of her detention in the media/public eye.

None of this has anything to do with Paul Manafort. If you believe this why did you post all the derogatory remarks about Manafort under this subject title in the first place?

What you think is your choice.  Until you are able to get into my head you cannot know my intention in starting this thread.  But I will repeat it.  I do not give a (pardon the bad language)  f##k who wins the U.S. election.  Do I like Trump?  No, because he is a misogynist who appeals to the worst, rather than the best, in people.  If Americans decide that they want that type of individual to lead their nation, that is their choice.  It will not affect my daily life in any way whatsoever.  It will not affect my healthcare, my ability to read books and online materials, my ability to take long walks, to cook for my family, to spend time with my husband, or to be involved in my community. 

As I have posted, had I wanted to have yet another political thread, I would have opened this in NHB.  So please do not suggest that I don't know why I started this thread. [/font]

I repeat.  Did Levine launder money for Ukrainian oligarchs? 


"Non answer" means "I don't like your answer".



Because (a) Manafort has a long history of lobbying for corrupt dictators and regimes; and (b) Manafort has made business deals with both Ukrainian and Russian oligarchs, all of whom are attempting to launder their money to secure it.

If you believe Mr. Levine's work in Ukraine is worthy of a thread, go ahead and open a thread devoted to him.  I am not Fox News, and therefore am not required to be "fair and balanced" in choosing thread topics.

Manafort also started a company, Pericles Emerging Markets Partners, which was used as an offshore vehicle to launder money for oligarchs such as Oleg Deripaska, who is prohibited from investing in the U.S. (and was at the time Pericles as established) because of Deripaska's links to organized crime. 



I didn't say what Manafort did in Ukraine was illegal.  I said it was immoral.


When you are involved in aiding oligarchs who have become rich by stealing a nation's wealth move their money abroad, then yes, you are damaging the souls of the millions of Ukrainians who paid for those assets.  Because those millions lack adequate healthcare, education, and even food due to the theft of their state's wealth, aided and abetted by immoral Westerners.


He used his influence with Yanukovych's regime to benefit his clients (such as Cargill) at the expense of the average Ukrainian.

He remade the image of a former KGB officer (well, a related organization) and helped get him elected.  Whether he knew that individual would trample the rights of Ukrainians, dismiss judges and replace them with his handpicked cronies, clamp down on freedom of the press (Ukraine's media was always free, and, since Yanukovych, it is now largely controlled by oligarchs), and order the shooting of demonstrators on Maidan is irrelevant.  The end result was that Ukrainian democracy was badly damaged during the presidency of Yanukovych, and Paul Manafort had
a hand in achieving those results.

This is just a long winded way of saying you support Hillary. If you read the Complaint (which I can also link) as it relates to the US defendants and the Judgment you'll find much of what you've posted as supporting your assertions either doesn't exist in the original complaint or was part of the dismissal in the judgment.

Brass

Edit:
Quote
At the same time that this lawsuit was launched, Tymoshenko also launched litigation in the EU's human rights court.  That court did find in Tymoshenko's favour.[/font]

Looking up this judgement it has absolutely nothing to do with the case brought in the US courts...

..."Former Prime Minister of Ukraine was arbitrarily detained

In today’s Chamber judgment in the case of Tymoshenko v. Ukraine (application
no. 49872/11), which is not final1, the European Court of Human Rights held,
unanimously, that there had been:
a violation of Article 5 § 1 (right to liberty and security) of the European
Convention on Human Rights;
a violation of Article 5 § 4 (right to a speedy review of the lawfulness of
detention);
a violation of Article 5 § 5 (right to compensation for unlawful detention);
a violation of Article 18 (limitation on use of restrictions on rights) in conjunction
with Article 5;
and it held, by a majority, that there had been no violation of Article 3 (prohibition
of inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment) in respect of Ms Tymoshenko’s
alleged ill-treatment during her transfer to hospital on 20 April 2012 and the
effectiveness of the investigation of those complaints.
The case concerned complaints related to the detention of the former Ukrainian Prime
Minister Yuliya Tymoshenko.
The Court held in particular: that Ms Tymoshenko’s pre-trial detention had been
arbitrary; that the lawfulness of her detention had not been properly reviewed; and, that
she had no possibility to seek compensation for her unlawful deprivation of liberty.
The Court also found that, given that the judge had referred to her alleged hindering of
the proceedings and contemptuous behaviour, her right to liberty had been restricted for
other reasons than those permissible under Article 5."...

This is a pdf library file ....  hudoc.echr.coe.int/app/conversion/pdf/?library=ECHR&id
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 03, 2016, 07:05:15 PM
Here are headnotes on dismissal of the claim -

Filed:9/18/2015
OPINION AND ORDER: Given that this is now Plaintiffs' fourth unsuccessful attempt to plead RICO claims, and given that the changes in the TAC fail to remedy the deficiencies found in the SAC, the Court declines to grant Plaintiffs yet another opportunity to amend their pleadings. When further amendment is likely to be futile, leave to amend need not be granted. See De Jesus v. Sears, Roebuck & Co., 87 F.3d 65, 72 (2d Cir. 1996) ("Plaintiffs were accorded four opportunities to plead their claims in this case, and the deficiencies in their federal claims are fundamental. The district court did not abuse its discretion by refusing them a fifth opportunity." (internal citations omitted)); see also Ruffolo v. Oppenheimer & Co., 987 F.2d 129, 131; BNP Paribas Mortgage Corp. v. Bank of Am., N.A., No. 09 Civ. 9783, 2013 WL 6484727, at 6* (S.D.N.Y. Dec. 9, 2013) (Sweet, J.). The changes from the SAC to the TAC are largely superficial or irrelevant and have not remedied the fundamental defects identified by this Court in Tymoshenko II. For the foregoing reasons, the TAC is dismissed . The Clerk of Court is directed to close this case. (As further set forth in this Order) (Signed by Judge Kimba M. Wood on 9/18/2015) (kl) Modified on 9/18/2015 (kl). (Entered: 09/18/2015)

Filed: 8/28/2013
OPINION & ORDER re: #103574 66 MOTION to Dismiss for Lack of Jurisdiction and For Failure to State a Claim filed by Nadra Bank. For the foregoing reasons, Nadra Bank's motion to dismiss Plaintiffs' Amended Complaint is GRANTED,  as to Plaintiffs' ATS claim and  with respect to Plaintiffs' RICO claim. This Opinion resolves Docket Entry 66. (Signed by Judge Kimba M. Wood on 8/28/2013) (lmb) Modified on 9/16/2013 (sdi). (Entered: 08/28/2013)


Filed: 3/28/2013
OPINION & ORDER: The Court GRANTS Defendant RUE's motion to dismiss Plaintiffs' claims for lack of personal jurisdiction. [Dkt. No. 56]. Plaintiffs' claims are dismissed . (Signed by Judge Kimba M. Wood on 3/26/2013)

Filed: 3/27/2013
OPINION & ORDER: #103054 The Court GRANTS Defendant RUE's motion to dismiss Plaintiffs' claims for lack of personal jurisdiction. [Dkt. No. 56]. Plaintiffs' claims are dismissed . (Signed by Judge Kimba M. Wood on 3/26/2013) (ft) Modified on 4/1/2013 (jab). (Entered: 03/27/2013)

Filed: 4/18/2013
ORDER: The Court denies Tymoshenko's motion for several reasons, not least of which is that the Court lacks personal jurisdiction over the Ukrainian government. Tymoshenko has also entirely failed to suggest her claim has any likelihood of success on the merits. First, Tymoshenko has failed to demonstrate why the interrogation of Kyrychenko is at all related to her civil claims. Second, contrary to Tymoshenko's assertion, the Treaty includes no affirmative mandate to notify the DOJ about a pending investigation. Rather, the Treaty supplies procedures for requesting assistance in foreign proceedings; it does not require Ukraine to involve the DOJ in Ukrainian criminal investigations involving witnesses located on U.S. soil Consequently, Tymoshenko's request for a TRO is DENIED. (Signed by Judge Kimba M. Wood on 4/18/2013) (ft) Modified on 4/18/2013 (ft). (Entered: 04/18/2013)

http://ecf.nysd.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/show_doc.pl?caseid=378317&de_seq_num=426&dm_id=13666325&doc_num=118 (http://ecf.nysd.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/show_doc.pl?caseid=378317&de_seq_num=426&dm_id=13666325&doc_num=118)

Bo, really?...

I'm looking at the same info you are...

http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/jo8t7oz8/new-york-southern-district-court/tymoshenko-et-al-v-firtash-et-al/

These are individual motions and filings from both the plaintiffs and defendants ruled on and placed in the docket over the course of the trail not the Judgment.

C'mon now you know better....

Brass
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on August 03, 2016, 08:25:41 PM
here's a link to the lawsuit

http://freebeacon.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/manafort-complaint-2.pdf

Based on the date that was filed, Yulia was currently on trial in Ukraine.


Some of you may be pleased to learn an ally of Manafort said "Manafort not challenging Trump anymore. Mailing it in. Staff suicidal." If true, you may not need to waste anymore time talking about Manafort and the Trump connection if they quit working together. One reason Yanu lost his first election was because he didn't listen to Manafort's advice. The second time Yanu ran for president, he followed Manafort's advice. Although Manafort is a Republican, he molded Yanu into a likable Bill Clinton using some of Bill's lines such as "I feel your pain." when speaking to citizens.

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/trump-allies-plot-candidate-intervention-after-disastrous-48-hours-n622216

Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 14, 2016, 06:48:53 PM
The latest revelations on Manafort -[/c

Quote
On a leafy side street off Independence Square in Kiev is an office used for years by . . . Paul Manafort, when he consulted for Ukraine’s ruling political party. His furniture and personal items were still there as recently as May.

And Mr. Manafort’s presence remains elsewhere here in the capital, where government investigators examining secret records have found his name, as well as companies he sought business with, as they try to untangle a corrupt network they say was used to loot Ukrainian assets and influence elections during the administration of Mr. Manafort’s main client, former President Viktor F. Yanukovych.

Handwritten ledgers show $12.7 million in undisclosed cash payments designated for Mr. Manafort from Mr. Yanukovych’s pro-Russian political party from 2007 to 2012, according to Ukraine’s newly formed National Anti-Corruption Bureau. Investigators assert that the disbursements were part of an illegal off-the-books system whose recipients also included election officials. . . .

Among the hundreds of murky transactions these companies engaged in was an $18 million deal to sell Ukrainian cable television assets to a partnership put together by Mr. Manafort and a Russian oligarch, Oleg Deripaska, a close ally of President Vladimir V. Putin. . .

Anti-corruption officials there say the payments earmarked for Mr. Manafort, previously unreported, are a focus of their investigation, though they have yet to determine if he actually received the cash. While Mr. Manafort is not a target in the separate inquiry of offshore activities, prosecutors say he must have realized the implications of his financial dealings.

“He understood what was happening in Ukraine,” said Vitaliy Kasko, a former senior official with the general prosecutor’s office in Kiev. “It would have to be clear to any reasonable person that the Yanukovych clan, when it came to power, was engaged in corruption.”

Mr. Kasko added, “It’s impossible to imagine a person would look at this and think, ‘Everything is all right.’”  . . .

(A) cache of documents discovered after the fall of Mr. Yanukovych’s government  . . . known in Ukraine as the “black ledger,” are a chicken-scratch of Cyrillic covering about 400 pages taken from books once kept in a third-floor room in the former Party of Regions headquarters on Lipskaya Street in Kiev. The room held two safes stuffed with $100 bills, said Taras V. Chornovil, a former party leader who was also a recipient of the money at times. He said in an interview that he had once received $10,000 in a “wad of cash” for a trip to Europe. . .

The National Anti-Corruption Bureau, which obtained the ledger, said in a statement that Mr. Manafort’s name appeared 22 times in the documents over five years, with payments totaling $12.7 million. The purpose of the payments is not clear. Nor is the outcome, since the handwritten entries cannot be cross-referenced against banking records, and the signatures for receipt have not yet been verified. . .

]“Paul Manafort is among those names on the list of so-called ‘black accounts of the Party of Regions,’ which the detectives of the National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine are investigating,” the statement said. “We emphasize that the presence of P. Manafort’s name in the list does not mean that he actually got the money, because the signatures that appear in the column of recipients could belong to other people.” . . .

While working in Ukraine, Mr. Manafort had also positioned himself to profit from business deals that benefited from connections he gained through his political consulting.  One of them, according to court filings, involved a network of offshore connections that he had gained through his political consulting.  One of them, according to court filings, involved a network of offshore companies that government investigators and independent journalists in Ukraine have said was used to launder public money and assets purportedly stolen by cronies of the government . . . Mr. Manafort continued working in Ukraine after the demise of Mr. Yanukovych's government, helping allies of the ousted president and others form a political bloc that opposed the new pro-Western administration.  Some of his aides were in Ukraine as recently as this year, and Ukrainian company records give no indication that Mr. Manafort has formally
dissolved the local branch of his company, Davis Manafort International, directed by a longtime assistant, Konstantin V. Kilimnik.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/15/us/politics/paul-manafort-ukraine-donald-trump.html?&hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/15/us/politics/paul-manafort-ukraine-donald-trump.html?&hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0)
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on August 14, 2016, 08:20:35 PM
The latest revelations on Manafort -[/c


Has any government decided to put Manafort on trial or is his attorney correct this is just politically motivated accusations?

Why is our media giving an employee of Trump so much attention when there is actual proof big Donors of Hillary's such as George Soros donating money and then given her instructions on what to do in foreign policy situations? If Trump was caught doing that, the media would have material that would last weeks.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 15, 2016, 12:55:09 PM
This is interesting, particularly the tweets listed here -


http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/daily-202/2016/08/15/daily-202-can-trump-chairman-paul-manafort-survive-new-ukraine-revelations/57b0ec7ccd249a2fe363ba20/
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Slumba on August 15, 2016, 12:58:38 PM
Hillary's spokesman sneered, "$12.7 million? He's a lightweight." 
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 15, 2016, 01:01:41 PM
$12.7 million stolen from the Ukrainian treasury is a heck of a lot more, proportionately.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on August 15, 2016, 01:11:32 PM
$12.7 million stolen from the Ukrainian treasury is a heck of a lot more, proportionately.

We can expect Ukraine to prosecute Manafort, especially since they're looking for support from Washington. If they don't prosecute Manafort, then that secret ledger doesn't amount to anything. When you find out Ukraine is going to take action, let us know.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 15, 2016, 01:59:47 PM
I highly doubt they'll tie any wrong doing to Manafort. Being mentioned on a ledger shows nothing. Even the Ukrainian investigators are saying it doesn't mean anything one way or the other.

Meanwhile the real story that Hillary Clinton’s campaign chair John Podesta, helped a Russian government-linked company bag $35 million is ignored...

Media Lust After Trump Russian Connection

NYT hypes Manafort Ukrainian work, avoids Clinton's massive Moscow dealings

..."Podesta and Clinton came under fire earlier this month when a Government Accountability Office (GAO) report exposed that Podesta had never disclosed the deal in mandatory filings.

Indeed, the $35 million figure from just this one Clinton-backed deal dwarfs the roughly $12 million The New York Times alleges Manafort was paid by Ukrainian officials — never mind the fact there is no connection to Trump whatsoever.

But The New York Times never ran a story on Podesta's undisclosed Joule Unlimited hookup from Clinton's deal with the Kremlin."...

http://www.lifezette.com/polizette/media-lust-trump-russian-connection/

Just more left wing media Bullsh*t trying to muddy the waters.

Brass



Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Gator on August 15, 2016, 02:38:59 PM
The latest revelations on Manafort -[/c

These accounts should be investigated further.  And if Paul Manafort did anything illegal, he should be prosecuted. 

The Clinton campaign and the news media will certainly push these.  If the shoe were on the other foot, Hillary Clinton would  ignore the media.  Paul Manafort impresses me as someone who would personally give a spoken explanation.   

High level political candidates in foreign countries frequently retain political campaign consultants.  Large teams come in and do a variety of research and other tasks over an extended period, e. g. focus groups.  Yeltsin employed such an American team when he ran for President.   

This is the important part.    The expenses and consulting fees are large.  The candidate pays the consultant.  The consultant does not know the specific source of the candidate's  money used to pay his invoice. 


Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Gator on August 15, 2016, 02:41:32 PM
I highly doubt they'll tie any wrong doing to Manafort.....Meanwhile the real story that Hillary Clinton’s campaign chair John Podesta, helped a Russian government-linked company bag $35 million is ignored...

Let us see who dodges the issue and who makes a statement. 
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 15, 2016, 03:12:28 PM
Let us see who dodges the issue and who makes a statement.

Manafort's already denied the NYT story...

Manafort blasts NYT, denies he accepted Ukraine cash payments

“Once again, the New York Times has chosen to purposefully ignore facts and professional journalism to fit their political agenda, choosing to attack my character and reputation rather than present an honest report,” Manafort said in a statement obtained by NBC News. “The suggestion that I accepted cash payments is unfounded, silly and nonsensical.”

Read more:  www.politico.com (http://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/paul-manafort-ukraine-payment-new-york-times-227004#ixzz4HRMeAeP6)

The full statement...

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cp5MIe-XgAAyUXH.jpg:large

Now, coincidently enough, in doing my due diligence attempting to get the real story from a source document or Ukraine news website I come across this...

NABU, FBI sign memo of understanding
The National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine (NABU) and Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) have signed a memorandum of Understanding to strengthen existing cooperation between the agencies as they pursue anti-corruption initiatives.

www.kyivpost.com (http://www.kyivpost.com/article/content/ukraine-politics/nabu-fbi-sign-memo-of-understanding-417469.html)

FBI to help Ukraine's Anti-Corruption Bureau in the fight against corruption of high-ranking officials

..."The National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine (NABU) has a long history of cooperation with U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation. A new memorandum was released concerning crimes connected with international money-laundering and asset recovery."...

..."Sytnyk made assurances that NABU will fully cooperate with the FBI. “If we ask them about something, they can involve financial intelligence in resolution of the problem,” he said."...

http://uawire.org (http://uawire.org/news/fbi-to-help-ukraine-s-anti-corruption-bureau-in-the-fight-against-corruption-of-high-ranking-officials?src=ilaw)

All of a sudden the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle start to fall into place as to how Manafort's name may have cropped up in the first place.

Especially when you discover that this guy also has his fingers in the pie...

From the same article..."In 2016, Sytnyk commented on information from ZN.UA stating that during the talk with Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, the Vice President of the United States, Joe Biden, twice insisted on the need to ensure that NABU remain separate from the SSU’s technical wiretapping abilities."...

I'm starting to smell a politically motivated rat...

Brass
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Muzh on August 15, 2016, 03:45:45 PM
Manafort's already denied the NYT story...

Manafort blasts NYT, denies he accepted Ukraine cash payments

“Once again, the New York Times has chosen to purposefully ignore facts and professional journalism to fit their political agenda, choosing to attack my character and reputation rather than present an honest report,” Manafort said in a statement obtained by NBC News. “The suggestion that I accepted cash payments is unfounded, silly and nonsensical.”

Read more:  www.politico.com (http://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/paul-manafort-ukraine-payment-new-york-times-227004#ixzz4HRMeAeP6)


Oooo, I can hardly wait for the lawsuit to put these liberal bastards in their places.



The full statement...

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cp5MIe-XgAAyUXH.jpg:large (http://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cp5MIe-XgAAyUXH.jpg:large)


Expecting anything else?  ;)

[/size]

Now, coincidently enough, in doing my due diligence attempting to get the real story from a source document or Ukraine news website I come across this...

NABU, FBI sign memo of understanding
The National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine (NABU) and Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) have signed a memorandum of Understanding to strengthen existing cooperation between the agencies as they pursue anti-corruption initiatives.

www.kyivpost.com (http://www.kyivpost.com/article/content/ukraine-politics/nabu-fbi-sign-memo-of-understanding-417469.html)

FBI to help Ukraine's Anti-Corruption Bureau in the fight against corruption of high-ranking officials

..."The National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine (NABU) has a long history of cooperation with U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation. A new memorandum was released concerning crimes connected with international money-laundering and asset recovery."...

..."Sytnyk made assurances that NABU will fully cooperate with the FBI. “If we ask them about something, they can involve financial intelligence in resolution of the problem,” he said."...

http://uawire.org (http://uawire.org/news/fbi-to-help-ukraine-s-anti-corruption-bureau-in-the-fight-against-corruption-of-high-ranking-officials?src=ilaw)

All of a sudden the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle start to fall into place as to how Manafort's name may have cropped up in the first place.

Especially when you discover that this guy also has his fingers in the pie...

From the same article..."In 2016, Sytnyk commented on information from ZN.UA stating that during the talk with Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, the Vice President of the United States, Joe Biden, twice insisted on the need to ensure that NABU remain separate from the SSU’s technical wiretapping abilities."...

I'm starting to smell a politically motivated rat...

Brass


Ah, yes. The big left-wing conspiracy... :P
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 15, 2016, 04:13:57 PM

Oooo, I can hardly wait for the lawsuit to put these liberal bastards in their places.




Expecting anything else?  ;)

[/size]

Ah, yes. The big left-wing conspiracy... :P

I wouldn't go so far as to say "conspiracy" but possibly a smear which would be a tried and true left wing tactic. It might be prophetic you did though. ;)

Brass
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Muzh on August 16, 2016, 02:40:27 PM
I wouldn't go so far as to say "conspiracy" but possibly a smear which would be a tried and true left wing tactic. It might be prophetic you did though. ;)

Brass


Brass, the last I looked Lee Atwater was a Republican.  ;)
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 16, 2016, 04:18:38 PM

Brass, the last I looked Lee Atwater was a Republican.  ;)

Atwater had nothing on the modern day Democratic party machine. ;)

Brass
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Gator on August 16, 2016, 05:19:34 PM
Last night, the Democrats were pursuing the Paul Manafort issue, extending it to criticize Trump's comments about Russia and Putin.  One even said on CNN, "Trump's campaign is a subsidiary of Putin."  Don Lemon said something like, "That comment is going too far." 

I was very busy today.  I see nothing in current news.  Did anything happen? 
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 16, 2016, 05:30:35 PM
I highly doubt they'll tie any wrong doing to Manafort. Being mentioned on a ledger shows nothing. Even the Ukrainian investigators are saying it doesn't mean anything one way or the other.

No, Manafort received $12.5 million in payments, based on a secret ledger kept, but Ukrainian investigators are trying to confirm his signature for receipt thereof.  As this was a Party of Regions slush fund (with state money), I doubt someone would have forged Manafort's signature.  Moreover, UKrainian signatures are very distinct in style.  There was a second ledger with payments in drips and drabs, with Manafort's name attached, but there is no proof he received those payments, and no signatures attached. 

Manafort was also involved in attempting to acquire a state asset (cable television assets) with criminal oligarch Oleg Deripaska.  Anyone who knows anything about Ukraine knows that state assets are usually stolen in the form of "sales" at less than fair market value, based on favours from those in power.  That is really the larger issue here.  Manafort was in to his neck with the most vile thieves in Ukraine, and was attempting to benefit personally, as well, at the expense of the average Ukrainian living on less than $200 a month.  Why is their economy such a shambles?  Because oligarchs and the sociopaths who have no trouble aiding them have zero regard for selling state assets for their own personal benefit.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Gator on August 16, 2016, 09:35:24 PM
Because oligarchs and the sociopaths who have no trouble aiding them have zero regard for selling state assets for their own personal benefit.

Or when a position of authority exchanging state favors for donations.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 17, 2016, 04:42:39 AM
Yes, that as wrong too.  However, in most of the West, where there is a rule of law, that can be prosecuted and if not, legislators can change laws.  That doesn't happen in corrupt countries.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 17, 2016, 07:15:25 AM
No, Manafort received $12.5 million in payments, based on a secret ledger kept, but Ukrainian investigators are trying to confirm his signature for receipt thereof.  As this was a Party of Regions slush fund (with state money), I doubt someone would have forged Manafort's signature.  Moreover, UKrainian signatures are very distinct in style.  There was a second ledger with payments in drips and drabs, with Manafort's name attached, but there is no proof he received those payments, and no signatures attached. 

Manafort was also involved in attempting to acquire a state asset (cable television assets) with criminal oligarch Oleg Deripaska.  Anyone who knows anything about Ukraine knows that state assets are usually stolen in the form of "sales" at less than fair market value, based on favours from those in power.  That is really the larger issue here.  Manafort was in to his neck with the most vile thieves in Ukraine, and was attempting to benefit personally, as well, at the expense of the average Ukrainian living on less than $200 a month.  Why is their economy such a shambles?  Because oligarchs and the sociopaths who have no trouble aiding them have zero regard for selling state assets for their own personal benefit.

Quite an imagination you have there, Bo.

In the real world here's what's been gleaned by the investigators so far...

..."Paul Manafort’s name is among those included in the list of the black accounts of the Party of Regions (the pro-presidential political force in 2010-early 2014, - 112 International). The relevant data is being investigated by the National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine (NABU). According to the lists, the expenses related to this person totaled about 12,7 million US dollars. The respective records started in November 2007 and finished in October 2012’, the NABU’s press service says.

However, the investigators say, there is a chance that Manafort didn’t actually get this money – there are signatures of other people in the ‘receivers’ column"...

..."The NABU reported that Manafort’s name emerged in the party’s papers 22 times in five years; the purpose of the payments in unclear yet."...

112.international (http://112.international/politics/national-anti-corruption-bureau-manafort-could-get-usd-13-mln-from-yanukovych-8469.html)

...So, in short. The reality of what's really happened here is quite a departure from the conjecture, smears and outright lies by the NYTs, Boethius' and various other all and sundry left wing nut bars trying to squeeze the biggest smear from as little information as possible.

Brass



 
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 17, 2016, 07:19:27 AM
The receivers column you refer to is a different set of books than the $12 million I referred to.  The column you referred to is for small amounts dispensed in cash, with signatures for receipt of that cash.  They generally were for small amounts.  Those are the amounts that Ukrainian prosecutors have not yet determined were paid to Mr. Manafort. 
Quote


Boethius' and various other all and sundry left wing nut bars


Thanks for the respectful dialogue.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 17, 2016, 07:34:26 AM
Here's a piece in May of this year from a Ukrainian paper.  It states quite clearly that the Ukrainian view is that Manafort undermined Ukrainian democracy.





http://antikor.com.ua/articles/102808-manafort_zrobiv_prezidentom_janukovicha_rozduv_v_ukrajini_movne_pitannja_druhitj_z_rosijsjkimi_oliga
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 17, 2016, 07:45:46 AM
The receivers column you refer to is a different set of books than the $12 million I referred to.  The column you referred to is for small amounts dispensed in cash, with signatures for receipt of that cash.  They generally were for small amounts.  Those are the amounts that Ukrainian prosecutors have not yet determined were paid to Mr. Manafort. 

So now there's the Bo set of ledgers totaling 12 million and the NABU seized ledger showing 12.7 million? - Not likely.

You need to start linking some substantiation for this conjecture you're spinning.

Brass
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 17, 2016, 07:56:14 AM
There are two separate ledgers.  The $12.7 million came directly from the Party of Regions.  Where the funds came from is unclear, but the payments were hidden, which is illegal.  I don't have much of an issue with that, as it is internal to Ukrainian political laws.  A second ledger was for disbursements for various things from a slush fund.  Those payments were physically signed for as they were disbursed, and were for small amounts, $100 here and there.   Mr. Manafort's name appears as the recipient of some of those payments, but prosecutors are not certain that he ever received them, or that he signed for those payments.  The reason names would be hidden is because typically, such payments are made for nefarious purposes. 


However, what struck me the most was the attempt to privatize state assets for his own personal benefit, at far less than fair market value.  That is common among Ukrainian politicians and their hangers on, but it is still theft.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Gator on August 17, 2016, 08:08:32 AM
Simultaneously, Manafort has been replaced as the chief campaign manager.  Is this a shakeup because of Trump's sagging poll numbers?  Is this merely an enhancement (Manafort was not terminated, and one new person was added) for the final wave of campaigning?  Is this because of the Ukrainian reports that Manafort may have been paid $12.5 million for something, such as campaign consulting services (ads, focus groups, etc.) 
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 17, 2016, 08:14:45 AM
Here's a piece in May of this year from a Ukrainian paper.  It states quite clearly that the Ukrainian view is that Manafort undermined Ukrainian democracy.

http://antikor.com.ua/articles/102808-manafort_zrobiv_prezidentom_janukovicha_rozduv_v_ukrajini_movne_pitannja_druhitj_z_rosijsjkimi_oliga

Which in turn is sourced to this article...

texty.org.ua (http://texty.org.ua/pg/article/newsmaker/read/67473/Manafort_zrobyv_prezydentom_Janukovycha_rozduv_v_Ukrajini?a_offset)

...That is using material from this American article...

www.slate.com (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/04/paul_manafort_isn_t_a_gop_retread_he_s_made_a_career_of_reinventing_tyrants.html#lf_comment=500595474)

So at best the article is a retread from an opinion piece written by this guy who  op-eds a number of opinions like this...

Putin’s Puppet

If the Russian president could design a candidate to undermine American interests—and advance his own—he’d look a lot like Donald Trump.

By Franklin Foer

www.slate.com (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/cover_story/2016/07/vladimir_putin_has_a_plan_for_destroying_the_west_and_it_looks_a_lot_like.html)

So no you don't have a Ukraine article stating Manafort undermined Ukraine democracy...You have an American sourced anti Manafort op-ed stating Manafort undermined Ukraine democracy.

Pretty well all roads lead back to the anti Trump crowd.

Brass
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 17, 2016, 08:18:35 AM
There are two separate ledgers.  The $12.7 million came directly from the Party of Regions.  Where the funds came from is unclear, but the payments were hidden, which is illegal.  I don't have much of an issue with that, as it is internal to Ukrainian political laws.  A second ledger was for disbursements for various things from a slush fund.  Those payments were physically signed for as they were disbursed, and were for small amounts, $100 here and there.   Mr. Manafort's name appears as the recipient of some of those payments, but prosecutors are not certain that he ever received them, or that he signed for those payments.  The reason names would be hidden is because typically, such payments are made for nefarious purposes. 


However, what struck me the most was the attempt to privatize state assets for his own personal benefit, at far less than fair market value.  That is common among Ukrainian politicians and their hangers on, but it is still theft.

Links? Substantiation? Press release? Anything?

Brass
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 17, 2016, 08:29:35 AM
Simultaneously, Manafort has been replaced as the chief campaign manager.  Is this a shakeup because of Trump's sagging poll numbers?  Is this merely an enhancement (Manafort was not terminated, and one new person was added) for the final wave of campaigning?  Is this because of the Ukrainian reports that Manafort may have been paid $12.5 million for something, such as campaign consulting services (ads, focus groups, etc.)

I don't think Manafort was ever the Campaign Chairman or Manager, Gator. He was the Top Advisor. Apparently he still retains that position. So I don't think he's been replaced although the media are trying to spin it as such.

Brass
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 17, 2016, 11:11:25 PM
Which in turn is sourced to this article...

texty.org.ua (http://texty.org.ua/pg/article/newsmaker/read/67473/Manafort_zrobyv_prezydentom_Janukovycha_rozduv_v_Ukrajini?a_offset)

...That is using material from this American article...

www.slate.com (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/04/paul_manafort_isn_t_a_gop_retread_he_s_made_a_career_of_reinventing_tyrants.html#lf_comment=500595474)

So at best the article is a retread from an opinion piece written by this guy who  op-eds a number of opinions like this...

Putin’s Puppet

If the Russian president could design a candidate to undermine American interests—and advance his own—he’d look a lot like Donald Trump.

By Franklin Foer

www.slate.com (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/cover_story/2016/07/vladimir_putin_has_a_plan_for_destroying_the_west_and_it_looks_a_lot_like.html)

So no you don't have a Ukraine article stating Manafort undermined Ukraine democracy...You have an American sourced anti Manafort op-ed stating Manafort undermined Ukraine democracy.

Pretty well all roads lead back to the anti Trump crowd.

Brass


All irrelevant to my point.  This was printed in a Ukrainian newspaper for a reason.


I don't understand why you defend Paul Manafort, whose client list is a who's who of the most odious authoritarian leaders in the world.  His connections to tyrants, and profiting from working with the most corrupt leaders in the world is well documented, and predates any association with Donald Trump.  Ukraine was just the latest stop in a never ending quest to destroy the world for the benefit of a corrupt elite.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 17, 2016, 11:13:44 PM
I don't think Manafort was ever the Campaign Chairman or Manager, Gator. He was the Top Advisor. Apparently he still retains that position. So I don't think he's been replaced although the media are trying to spin it as such.
Brass


No, he is the campaign chair, and will retain that position. 


http://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-trump-reshapes-campaign-organization-in-his-own-image-1471456052
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on August 17, 2016, 11:20:05 PM
I don't understand why you defend Paul Manafort, whose client list is a who's who of the most odious authoritarian leaders in the world.  His connections to tyrants, and profiting from working with the most corrupt leaders in the world is well documented, and predates any association with Donald Trump.  Ukraine was just the latest stop in a never ending quest to destroy the world for the benefit of a corrupt elite.


Manafort didn't put all that money in his pocket. It was used for lobbying purposes. Did you read the other thread where he gave the Democrats millions through the brother of Hillary's campaign manager? Think Hillary is going to return that money?
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 18, 2016, 07:58:09 AM

No, he is the campaign chair, and will retain that position. 

Apparently so, at least that's what the media are calling him today. I'm sure they'll invent some new titles and whether he's been demoted, fired, employed or not as time goes on. Serves to confuse the voting public with false scandal..

Trump shakes up campaign, demotes top adviser

www.washingtonpost.com (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/08/17/trump-reshuffles-staff-in-his-own-image/)

Where's Kiwi's outrage now, eh? ;D

Brass

Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 18, 2016, 08:10:15 AM
He was referred to as Trump's campaign chairman before this "demotion".


http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/20/magazine/how-donald-trump-picked-his-running-mate.html?_r=0


http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/lewandowski-calls-for-manafort-resignation-225801


http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/02/us/politics/donald-trump-women.html
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 18, 2016, 08:22:31 AM
All irrelevant to my point.  This was printed in a Ukrainian newspaper for a reason.

Uh, no. It's precisely relevant to your point. You stated...

Quote
Here's a piece in May of this year from a Ukrainian paper. It states quite clearly that the Ukrainian view is that Manafort undermined Ukrainian democracy.

It is not 'the Ukrainian view'. It is an American by the name of Franklin Foer's view re posted as an op-ed article on a Ukrainian news website.

I don't understand why you defend Paul Manafort, whose client list is a who's who of the most odious authoritarian leaders in the world.  His connections to tyrants, and profiting from working with the most corrupt leaders in the world is well documented, and predates any association with Donald Trump. Ukraine was just the latest stop in a never ending quest to destroy the world for the benefit of a corrupt elite.

1) Because there's nothing to show Manafort did anything wrong.

2) Destroy the world? LOL...This guy wouldn't even be on your radar if he didn't work for Trump. You even referred to him defending an earlier position (posted up thread).

Like Kiwi you both seem to have difficulty understanding that I'm not just going to fall into line with what you decide your position is on whatever your flavor of the day is...Not without substantiation or evidence of some sort which you haven't provided.

Brass
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 18, 2016, 08:27:12 AM
He was referred to as Trump's campaign chairman before this "demotion".


http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/20/magazine/how-donald-trump-picked-his-running-mate.html?_r=0


http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/lewandowski-calls-for-manafort-resignation-225801


http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/02/us/politics/donald-trump-women.html

And yet when Trump hires more staff Manafort is fired, demoted, a top aid or whatever else best serves the left wing false scandal rhetoric. ;)

Brass

Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 18, 2016, 08:30:03 AM
The opening paragraphs of the text in Ukrainian suggest this is, in fact, the Ukrainian perspective.

Manafort was on the radar of organizations such as The Center for Public Integrity long before Donald Trump demonstrated any interest in politics. 

http://cloudfront-files-1.publicintegrity.org/legacy_projects/pdf_reports/THETORTURERSLOBBY.pdf (http://cloudfront-files-1.publicintegrity.org/legacy_projects/pdf_reports/THETORTURERSLOBBY.pdf)

Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 18, 2016, 08:41:59 AM
The opening paragraphs of the text in Ukrainian suggest this is, in fact, the Ukrainian perspective.

Manafort was on the radar of organizations such as The Center for Public Integrity long before Donald Trump demonstrated any interest in politics. 

http://cloudfront-files-1.publicintegrity.org/legacy_projects/pdf_reports/THETORTURERSLOBBY.pdf (http://cloudfront-files-1.publicintegrity.org/legacy_projects/pdf_reports/THETORTURERSLOBBY.pdf)

I can pretty well suggest anything I want in my written submissions as well. It doesn't make it accurate or correct. A lot of people think that because they think it's so, it's so.

Riiiight...Another Pulitzer prize winning non partisan investigative body. Isn't that right?

..." the Los Angeles Times and the New York Times editorial referred to the CPI as a "liberal group."...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Public_Integrity

If NYT is referring to them as a "liberal group" they must be pretty darn liberal. ;D

Brass
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 18, 2016, 09:06:38 AM
But Manafort has, in fact, represented the who's who of sleaze, and profited handsomely from those associations.  He's made personal business deals with oligarchs who have stolen the wealth of their countries (all former commie nomenklatura, BTW, which includes Yanukovych) at the expense of the average citizens.  And he does so with no conscience.  Hmm, how do we usually describe such individuals?


I don't really care if the attack is coming from the left or the right.  What I look at is the act itself, and its consequences.  No matter what lipstick you put on this pig, Manafort is profiting personally by helping authoritarian leaders and robber barons. 
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on August 18, 2016, 11:19:45 AM
Manafort was on the radar of organizations


Hillary was on a lot of people's radar. Isn't stopping her from being president so Manafort deserves a prize too. There's nothing Manafort can to that Hillary can do worse. Democrats took Yanukovych's lobby money through people associated with Hillary. Democrats make deals with terrorist sponsor states such as Iran. Yanukovych has killed much less people than Iran has.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 18, 2016, 06:18:36 PM
But Manafort has, in fact, represented the who's who of sleaze, and profited handsomely from those associations.  He's made personal business deals with oligarchs who have stolen the wealth of their countries (all former commie nomenklatura, BTW, which includes Yanukovych) at the expense of the average citizens.  And he does so with no conscience.  Hmm, how do we usually describe such individuals?


I don't really care if the attack is coming from the left or the right.  What I look at is the act itself, and its consequences.  No matter what lipstick you put on this pig, Manafort is profiting personally by helping authoritarian leaders and robber barons.

Wow! What an amazing display of unmitigated BS. ;D

I've been asking for some form of substantiation backing up this fantastical vitriol of yours and I'm still waiting.

So far all I'm reading in this topic of yours is "I'm with her".

Brass
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Anotherkiwi on August 18, 2016, 07:39:19 PM
Where's Kiwi's outrage now, eh? ;D

Outrage at what?  At the fact that Trump has changed some of his campaign staff?

Like Kiwi you both seem to have difficulty understanding that I'm not just going to fall into line with what you decide your position is on whatever your flavor of the day is...Not without substantiation or evidence of some sort which you haven't provided.

You're getting as bad as some others here at not reading what I actually post.  I don't care what position you take on anything - I just want you to acknowledge the truth of the fact that Trump lied about Obama being the founder of ISIS.  If he was stupid enough to say it on live television, and repeat it, it's a bit bloody difficult to deny it - which is what you continue to do.  I don't care if you're actually his lovechild and worship him like a God - just take off your blinkers in this ONE instance.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Slumba on August 18, 2016, 09:50:12 PM
Manafort was working with ... Podesta Group, i.e. Jon Podesta, big time ... DEMOCRAT. Am I wrong about this connection?
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 18, 2016, 11:04:50 PM
Wow! What an amazing display of unmitigated BS. ;D

I've been asking for some form of substantiation backing up this fantastical vitriol of yours and I'm still waiting.

So far all I'm reading in this topic of yours is "I'm with her".

Brass


The odious clients are confirmed, based on lobbyist filings.


I am certain the Party of Regions, some half decade ago, faked their illegal slush fund payments at the behest of Democrat psychics, who predicted Manafort's high profile turn in the Trump campaign.


Really, if it walks like a duck,


(http://www.emblibrary.com/el/product_images/F1478.jpg)
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 19, 2016, 08:52:04 AM
Outrage at what?  At the fact that Trump has changed some of his campaign staff?

The general misrepresentation that Manafort was demoted by the media to create false scandal...You have a problem even acknowledging the hypocrisy if it's originating on your team.

You're getting as bad as some others here at not reading what I actually post.  I don't care what position you take on anything - I just want you to acknowledge the truth of the fact that Trump lied about Obama being the founder of ISIS.  If he was stupid enough to say it on live television, and repeat it, it's a bit bloody difficult to deny it - which is what you continue to do.  I don't care if you're actually his lovechild and worship him like a God - just take off your blinkers in this ONE instance.

I highly doubt you read what you actually post or you wouldn't be posting it.

Again, Trump did not lie. He may have been somewhat ambitious with the word "founded" but the historical accuracy, perception and generally accepted sentiment that Obama is responsible for the rise of IS is factual.

You're kinda making a fool of yourself trying to convince me to agree with you when your premise is simply untrue.

Brass

Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 19, 2016, 08:56:08 AM

The odious clients are confirmed, based on lobbyist filings.


I am certain the Party of Regions, some half decade ago, faked their illegal slush fund payments at the behest of Democrat psychics, who predicted Manafort's high profile turn in the Trump campaign.


Really, if it walks like a duck,

And even with all your hatred focused on him. You have not produced anything to connect Manafort to any wrong doing.

Brass
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BC on August 19, 2016, 09:00:54 AM
And even with all your hatred focused on him. You have not produced anything to connect Manafort to any wrong doing.

Brass

Well maybe no wrongdoing but I guess he felt his circumstances were becoming too much of a distraction for Trump and officially resigned today.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 19, 2016, 09:08:20 AM
Well maybe no wrongdoing but I guess he felt his circumstances were becoming too much of a distraction for Trump and officially resigned today.

His resigning may not have been a result of any circumstances. He simply may not have liked the new hires or the way the campaign was going.

I'm sure the media (and your ilk) will try and spin it as such though.

Brass
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: fathertime on August 19, 2016, 08:35:35 PM

And they will continue to ask how many angels dance on the head of a pin, as evidenced above.


Manafort worked with the Putin regime to elect Yanukovych.  But it was what he did later that matters.  He helped oligarchs buy up Ukrainian assets.  He called in favours to have the Yanukovych regime drop tariffs, important tax revenue for the Ukrainian government, for the benefit of U.S. multinationals.  Together with Ukrainian oligarchs, he laundered money in Ukraine, which was then used to corrupt Ukraine's judicial system, which had been cleaned up significantly under Yushchenko (I state this as one who is not a Yushchenko fan, particularly).


It certainly appears you were correct.  Isn't it ironic with all the grumbling about 'hillary scandal's' and her having to drop out, it winds up being one of Trump's top guys who is now in hot water!  All in all, the whole thing looks bad for the USA....a little like when Victoria Nuland made her 'fvuk EU' comments!   So I wonder how much US money is being used to try to influence the politics abroad...
Manafort’s Ukraine ties being probed by FBI


The Justice Department and the FBI are conducting a wide-ranging investigation into allegations of corrupt dealings by the government of former Ukrainian president Victor Yanukovych, including the hiring of Washington lobbyists for the regime by former Donald Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort, a senior law enforcement official confirmed to Yahoo News.

The investigation, which was first reported by CNN, began two years ago after Yanukovych fled Kiev to Moscow and was replaced by the current government of Petro Poroshenko, the official said. But the inquiry has expanded in recent weeks in the wake of the discovery of documents showing $12.7 million in payments to Manafort by Yanukovych’s Party of Regions political party. Investigators are also....

http://www.yahoo.com/news/manaforts-ukraine-ties-being-probed-by-fbi-013933245.html (http://www.yahoo.com/news/manaforts-ukraine-ties-being-probed-by-fbi-013933245.html)


Fathertime!
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 20, 2016, 06:51:57 AM

It certainly appears you were correct.  Isn't it ironic with all the grumbling about 'hillary scandal's' and her having to drop out, it winds up being one of Trump's top guys who is now in hot water!  All in all, the whole thing looks bad for the USA....a little like when Victoria Nuland made her 'fvuk EU' comments!   So I wonder how much US money is being used to try to influence the politics abroad...
Manafort’s Ukraine ties being probed by FBI


The Justice Department and the FBI are conducting a wide-ranging investigation into allegations of corrupt dealings by the government of former Ukrainian president Victor Yanukovych, including the hiring of Washington lobbyists for the regime by former Donald Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort, a senior law enforcement official confirmed to Yahoo News.

The investigation, which was first reported by CNN, began two years ago after Yanukovych fled Kiev to Moscow and was replaced by the current government of Petro Poroshenko, the official said. But the inquiry has expanded in recent weeks in the wake of the discovery of documents showing $12.7 million in payments to Manafort by Yanukovych’s Party of Regions political party. Investigators are also....

http://www.yahoo.com/news/manaforts-ukraine-ties-being-probed-by-fbi-013933245.html (http://www.yahoo.com/news/manaforts-ukraine-ties-being-probed-by-fbi-013933245.html)

No Boethius is not correct and your article is just another example of the left wing media, in this case CNN, continuing their hatchet job on Manafort...

Report: FBI, DOJ looking at Manafort in Ukraine investigation

..."The Department of Justice and the FBI are looking at Paul Manafort as part of a broad investigation into alleged corruption in Ukraine, according to CNN."...

..."The investigation is instead broadly examining whether U.S. corporations and financial institutions had been used to aid former Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych, who was driven out of office, CNN reports."...

This is the real story buried in amongst the CNN bullsh*t...

..."The CNN report says that other firms that had been involved with Manafort have also been caught up in the Justice Department investigation, including the Podesta Group. However, the report does not list Mercury as being part of the probe.

CNN cites law enforcement officials saying that prosecutors “haven’t ruled anything out.” ...

The two companies that are actually the focus of your article's so called expanded FBI probe had already addressed the issue prior to CNN continuing their smear campaign against Manafort...

..."The two firms made the statements about outside hires prior to the CNN report on Friday evening."...

So CNN are unapologetically reporting a deflecting story. As the probe starts to link organizations like the Podesta Group and the Clinton foundation to Yanukovych, you'll see the left wing and their news organizations drowning that story out by substituting Manafort for names like Podesta and Clinton in their reporting even if his (Manafort's) association is peripheral to the event.

thehill.com (http://thehill.com/business-a-lobbying/business-a-lobbying/292063-report-fbi-justice-department-looking-at-manafort-in)

Brass

Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 20, 2016, 07:34:12 AM
Press release from NABU...

Statement regarding P.Manafort's appearance on the Party of Regions black ledger

In response to numerous requests from mass media regarding appearance of the name of Paul Manafort on the Party of Regions ‘black ledger’ (documents passed to the National Anti-Corruption Bureau by the Ex-first-deputy of the State Security Service of Ukraine Victor Trepak), the National Anti-Corruption Bureau informs on the following.

Paul Manafort is among those names on the list of the so-called "black ledger” of the Party of Regions, which is investigated by the detectives of National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine. According to the lists, a total sum of over 12.7 million US dollars was allocated on the costs associated with this person since 20.11.2007. The last entry on the lists about P. Manafort is dated on October 5, 2012.

We emphasize that mentioning P.Manafort’s name on the list does not mean that he actually got the money, because the signatures that appear in the column of recipients could belong to other people.

To avoid rumors and speculations, the NABU is publishing copies of 19 pages, containing 22 items related to the name of Paul Manafort."...

An itemized list and a copy of the ledger with the so called Manafort entries are attached...

nabu.gov.ua (http://nabu.gov.ua/en/novyny/statement-regarding-pmanaforts-appearance-party-regions-black-ledger)

Now, as the inquiry continues we're starting to get reports that - Hey, guess what? The signatures on the spreadsheet don't belong to Manafort but to a 'party member(s)' not associated with Manafort...

..."Recently, NABU official website reported that among the records of the so-called Party of Regions “spreadsheet”, there were recordings of the transfer of more than 12 million US Dollars to Yanukovych’s American political consultant Paul Manafort.

Though signatures under the sums addressed to Manafort were not his own. They belong to persons related to the foreign policy wing of the Party of Regions. In particular, to one former member of the party.

..."NABU, in its turn, after such a loud statement, is simply obliged to interrogate those persons that are listed in the «Party of Regions spreadsheet» as persons receiving the funds from the “black cash” indicating “for Manafort”, as well as call Manafort in for questioning on this or run it through a video conference that is not prohibited by procedural code."...

http://empr.media/politics/manafort-questioned-detectives/

The plot thickens...

Brass





















Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Slumba on August 20, 2016, 07:48:08 AM
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-08-20/fbi-probing-firm-belonging-clinton-campaign-chairmans-brother-ties-ukraine-corruptio

Podesta as in Jon Podesta, longtime Democrat congressman andClinton campaign chairman, and his brother - AMAZING isn't it how the relatives suddenly also become successful once a person gets elected to national office, isn't it?

Scratch under Manafort and you find ... Pinchuk's donations to the Clinton foundation, Podesta, etc. 
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on August 20, 2016, 09:11:46 AM

Manafort’s Ukraine ties being probed by FBI

http://www.yahoo.com/news/manaforts-ukraine-ties-being-probed-by-fbi-013933245.html (http://www.yahoo.com/news/manaforts-ukraine-ties-being-probed-by-fbi-013933245.html)


Seems like they are more concerned where the money went. Obviously Manafort didn't steal it but it went to lobbying purposes which conservative and democrat lobby groups benefit. Your article said those lobby groups didn't register as foreign agents as required by law. By registering, it will give the transparency that they lobby on behalf of foreign interest. I'm not surprised connections to Hillary popped up in this investigation. Her name seems to be tied to every dollar in and outside of America.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 20, 2016, 05:17:21 PM

It certainly appears you were correct.  Isn't it ironic with all the grumbling about 'hillary scandal's' and her having to drop out, it winds up being one of Trump's top guys who is now in hot water!  All in all, the whole thing looks bad for the USA....a little like when Victoria Nuland made her 'fvuk EU' comments!   So I wonder how much US money is being used to try to influence the politics abroad...
Manafort’s Ukraine ties being probed by FBI


The Justice Department and the FBI are conducting a wide-ranging investigation into allegations of corrupt dealings by the government of former Ukrainian president Victor Yanukovych, including the hiring of Washington lobbyists for the regime by former Donald Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort, a senior law enforcement official confirmed to Yahoo News.

The investigation, which was first reported by CNN, began two years ago after Yanukovych fled Kiev to Moscow and was replaced by the current government of Petro Poroshenko, the official said. But the inquiry has expanded in recent weeks in the wake of the discovery of documents showing $12.7 million in payments to Manafort by Yanukovych’s Party of Regions political party. Investigators are also....

http://www.yahoo.com/news/manaforts-ukraine-ties-being-probed-by-fbi-013933245.html (http://www.yahoo.com/news/manaforts-ukraine-ties-being-probed-by-fbi-013933245.html)


Fathertime!


What was most interesting to me in the link was that Manafort establishes not for profits to run many of these for profit activities, presumably so he can skirt U.S. lobbying laws.  His representation of evil dictators, such as Marcos, were done as a lobbyist, and I suspect he didn't like the negative publicity.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Anotherkiwi on August 21, 2016, 05:30:22 AM
The general misrepresentation that Manafort was demoted by the media to create false scandal...You have a problem even acknowledging the hypocrisy if it's originating on your team.

What crap is this?  I've never even mentioned Manafort, so why are you linking my name to posts about him?  And how can I acknowledge any hypocrisy. when there is no such thing as "my team?"

I highly doubt you read what you actually post or you wouldn't be posting it.

Arrogance is your middle name, isn't it?

Again, Trump did not lie. He may have been somewhat ambitious with the word "founded" but the historical accuracy, perception and generally accepted sentiment that Obama is responsible for the rise of IS is factual.

I thought English was your first language.  I apologise for getting that wrong. :wallbash:

1.  He DID lie.  He made an unequivocal statement that Obama founded ISIS, a statement which the whole world (including you) knows to be untrue.  Using "somewhat ambitious" as a qualifier just doesn't cut it.

2.  The "historical accuracy" that Obama is responsible for the rise of ISIS is debatable.  While decisions taken by the United States (NOT necessarily by Obama himself) may have opened the way for ISIS to strengthen, you cannot link the two with certainty - no matter how much you personally wish to do so.

3.  The "perception" and "generally accepted sentiment" to which you refer is bullshit.  Even if, as I posted earlier, the 29% of poll respondents were all vehemently anti-Obama, and agreed with your premise, that falls a hell of a long way short of any accepted formula or test to determine how anything can be "generally accepted."

You're kinda making a fool of yourself trying to convince me to agree with you when your premise is simply untrue.

You're kinda making a fool of yourself trying to convince anybody that YOUR premise is correct.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on August 21, 2016, 08:41:09 AM

One can Google Podesta Group, which has ties to Hillary and other Democrats, and not see major media outlets target them like they are doing Manafort's lobby company. They lobbied on behalf of pro Russian Yanukovych's party and are investigated by the FBI for skirting the rules. Although Manafort's name will not be associated with Trump anymore, I'm sure he'll continue to get more attention than the liberals who were involved in this.

The bottom line is the Ukrainian people voted Yanukovych in power and trusted him with their money. I was one of the few people who protested the election pointing out voter fraud. Vote untrustworthy people in power, this is what happens. If Hillary is elected, I wouldn't doubt she'd be involved with another scandal.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 21, 2016, 09:29:44 AM
 As the investigation moves forward the names starting to surface in the so-called 'Black Ledger' are raising some eyebrows. However, the left wing MSM outlets won't be telling you about it...

Regions Party paid $225,000 from its shadow assets to U.S. journalist Larry King

..."Money from the Regions Party's shadow assets was paid, for instance, to Larry King, a well-known American journalist who had been a CNN host for decades. He got $225,000 from the Regions Party's shadow coffer," Leshchenko said at a press conference on Friday morning in Kyiv.

Editor-in-chief of the Internet online publication Ukrayinska Pravda Sevgil Musaieva-Borovyk in turn said that King had received those funds for an interview with the then Prime Minister of Ukraine Mykola Azarov."...

http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/364609.html

Now that Manafort is no longer perceived to pose a threat to Hillary the false accusations (as we see in this discussion topic), media frenzy and smear campaign will likely be shunted to the back burner and disappeared.

Why? Because this faux scandal has served it's purpose and as the investigation continues the names and organizations of those who could have actual criminal involvement like Clinton's campaign manager Podesta may start to figure more prominently. The media will now be relentless in suppressing any new information implicating their presidential candidate or those who work for her.

I've used Larry King's name as an example of the names alongside Manafort's that are being found in this ledger but are simply being ignored by the same media outlets and like minded individuals who proclaimed Manafort is "the destroyer of Ukraine's democracy" (of all things :rolleyes:) for being recorded in the same ledger.

The hypocrisy of these people and organizations is simply astounding.

Brass




Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 21, 2016, 10:12:12 AM
What crap is this?  I've never even mentioned Manafort, so why are you linking my name to posts about him?  And how can I acknowledge any hypocrisy. when there is no such thing as "my team?"

Yeah, I figured you'd start dancing about now. I linked your duplicitous behavior ignoring the lies being told about Manafort yet screaming bloody murder at the miswording used by Trump. "Where's the outrage?" Get it?

Arrogance is your middle name, isn't it?

And Mendacious must be yours...

I thought English was your first language.  I apologise for getting that wrong. :wallbash:

I've been employing the English language at an adult proficient level so I can understand how that would confuse you. I can dumb my grammar down for you if it will help?

1.  He DID lie.  He made an unequivocal statement that Obama founded ISIS, a statement which the whole world (including you) knows to be untrue.  Using "somewhat ambitious" as a qualifier just doesn't cut it.

2.  The "historical accuracy" that Obama is responsible for the rise of ISIS is debatable.  While decisions taken by the United States (NOT necessarily by Obama himself) may have opened the way for ISIS to strengthen, you cannot link the two with certainty - no matter how much you personally wish to do so.

3.  The "perception" and "generally accepted sentiment" to which you refer is bullshit.  Even if, as I posted earlier, the 29% of poll respondents were all vehemently anti-Obama, and agreed with your premise, that falls a hell of a long way short of any accepted formula or test to determine how anything can be "generally accepted."

You're kinda making a fool of yourself trying to convince anybody that YOUR premise is correct.

I've already debunked your false premise starting  here  (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=18909.msg440244#msg440244). A second attempt at smearing Trump won't be any more successful on this topic.

Brass



 
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 21, 2016, 11:17:13 AM
Quote
I've used Larry King's name as an example of the names alongside Manafort's that are being found in this ledger but are simply being ignored by the same media outlets and like minded individuals who proclaimed Manafort is "the destroyer of Ukraine's democracy" (of all things) for being recorded in the same ledger.

I titled this before knowledge of that ledger was reported.

Paul Manafort had no trouble crafting a campaign that created artificial divides in Ukrainian society.   This had repercussions, including an invasion a few years later.   He had no trouble in getting in bed with Ukrainian oligarchs, or in pushing policies, thanks to his connections with the Party of Regions, that benefited his US clients to the detriment of average Ukrainians.  He had no issues in attempting to privatize, and monetize to his personal advantage, Ukrainian state assets.  When Larry King does the same, you'll have an equivalency argument.  It has zero to do with Donald Trump.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on August 21, 2016, 11:36:10 AM
It has zero to do with Donald Trump.


The media has a habit of mentioning Trump every time they mention Manafort so they plant a seed in everybody's head that Trump is connected. Brass mentioned earlier there was a liberal lobbyist working for Yanukovych but I can't remember his name because media doesn't run many stories on him.

Trump's son said father got rid of Manafort because he was a distraction in interview below. It's sad that the media decides to run with stories of a person who is not going for the presidency and ignore the stories on a person that is going for presidency. Lots of good reading material in them emails about pay to play but most Americans will not get to hear about it.

http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2016/08/19/eric-trump-on-manaforts-resignation-sot-lv.cnn/video/playlists/donald-trumps-campaign-shakeup/
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 21, 2016, 12:19:35 PM
I titled this before knowledge of that ledger was reported.

Your subject title is based on a NYT smear piece (OP) that eluded to a document that in a subsequent article the NYT identified as the ledger...

..."Mr. Manafort’s role was disclosed after a document was discovered in a box in a sauna belonging to a former senior Ukrainian official. Other documents in that cache are now evidence in a criminal case against a former justice official, and could shed more light on Mr. Manafort’s role."...

www.nytimes.com (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/01/us/paul-manafort-ukraine-donald-trump.html?rref=collection%2Fnewseventcollection%2FPresidential%20Election%202016&action=click&contentCollection=Politics&module=Collection&region=Marginalia&src=me&version=newsevent&pgtype=article&_r=0)

Paul Manafort had no trouble crafting a campaign that created artificial divides in Ukrainian society.   This had repercussions, including an invasion a few years later.   He had no trouble in getting in bed with Ukrainian oligarchs, or in pushing policies, thanks to his connections with the Party of Regions, that benefited his US clients to the detriment of average Ukrainians.  He had no issues in attempting to privatize, and monetize to his personal advantage, Ukrainian state assets.  When Larry King does the same, you'll have an equivalency argument.  It has zero to do with Donald Trump.

Third time...Substantiation? ...Links? ...Proof of any of this? Otherwise it's just more 'I'm with her' speculation and completely without legal merit.

So names like CNN's (retired) Larry King being recorded on the ledger as receiving payment(s?) doesn't deserve the same scrutiny as Manafort's name being on the ledger?... I think not.

It has everything to do with Trump. As Billy's already posted the left wing media have tied the names Trump and Manafort together like they're Siamese twins when they peddle their smear campaigns.

Brass
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Anotherkiwi on August 21, 2016, 06:54:17 PM
Yeah, I figured you'd start dancing about now. I linked your duplicitous behavior ignoring the lies being told about Manafort yet screaming bloody murder at the miswording used by Trump. "Where's the outrage?" Get it?

No, I don't get it.  I haven't mentioned Manafort at all, in any capacity, so you can't link the two using my name.  For that, I will happily admit to being outraged.  ;D

I've been employing the English language at an adult proficient level so I can understand how that would confuse you. I can dumb my grammar down for you if it will help?

This from someone who doesn't know the difference between "elude" and "allude."

Your subject title is based on a NYT smear piece (OP) that eluded to a document that in a subsequent article the NYT identified as the ledger...

The only thing which eludes you is that Trump lied.  I'm happy to bow to your superior knowledge of Paul Manafort and all these other people of whom you have first-hand knowledge.

I've already debunked your false premise starting  here  (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=18909.msg440244#msg440244). A second attempt at smearing Trump won't be any more successful on this topic.

It doesn't matter how many times, in how many threads, you try to weasel out of it, you're not going to win this one.

TRUMP LIED.  And after all the outrage over his remarks, he finally decides to claim that he was being sarcastic.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 21, 2016, 11:31:16 PM
Your subject title is based on a NYT smear piece (OP) that eluded to a document that in a subsequent article the NYT identified as the ledger...

So you are now able to get inside my head to determine how I decided to name the article?

No, the NYT piece was not the only piece I read.  But it was the only one I linked.

Manafort has also worked for such stellar humanitarians as Ferdinand Marcos, Jonas Savimbi, Mobutu Sese Seko, Sani Abacha, Siad Barre, the entire nation of Saudi Arabia, and of course, Viktor Yanukovych.  So, he has a history spanning 30 odd years, of aiding the most vile human rights abusers in the world, all for his ounce of gold.

How anyone could defend the record of a man who has demonstrated by deeds that money matters more than the blood of innocents is beyond the pale.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 22, 2016, 12:54:27 AM
Here is the way I look at it. 

Ukraine (and Russia) are ruled by the same ruling elite who ruled in Soviet times.  They destroyed these countries for seven decades and continue to do so.  No one can honestly state these countries are well governed.  They have no rule of law and are mired in corruption and cronyism.

We, in the West, who are blessed with stability, should be funding grassroots organizations, through various means, for the populations to change their countries from within.  We should not be making a buck by aiding the vilest leaders to continue to steal, and to subvert democracy.  To do so, and then to continue to lobby and benefit personally from ties to those who ensure these countries remain poor is contrary to even the most basic human decency.

Yesterday and today, the better half and I spent most of the day driving the roads of Kalyna country.  We saw many of the historical Byzantine churches that dot the region, a tribute to the history of Ukrainian settlement in east-central Alberta.  Every town, no matter its population, had a church.  It was not unusual in those towns, populated predominantly by Ukrainians, where Ukrainian was the common language spoken on the main streets, to have two churches, one Orthodox, and one Greek Catholic.   Now, as the populations of those towns has decreased, and church attendance dwindles, many of those churches are well preserved, and one can tour them and leave a donation for their upkeep, but they are, essentially, museums.

The empty churches got me thinking to Ukraine, and the images I have seen over the years not of churches sitting without worshippers, but rather, of bell towers pulled down, of icons smashed, of centuries old bricks dismantled overnight, because of ideology.  I asked the better half on his perspectives, as the end result is really the same, though how we arrived there differs.

The better half pointed out that when money becomes your god, you, as a society, are doomed.  He gave me numerous historical examples to back up his assertion.  Certainly, the situation among Ukrainian elites is indicative of this.  Manafort is an example of the West's side of that coin.  There is no shame in representing, in the halls of power, the most vile torturers and oppressors of other human souls.  It is not done out of conviction, or deeply held political belief, or the fanaticism of some ideological belief.  It is all done in pursuit and reverence of the mighty dollar, our new god, and to hell with those who suffer the consequences of that pursuit.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 22, 2016, 07:50:23 AM
No, I don't get it.  I haven't mentioned Manafort at all, in any capacity, so you can't link the two using my name.  For that, I will happily admit to being outraged.  ;D

This from someone who doesn't know the difference between "elude" and "allude."

The only thing which eludes you is that Trump lied.  I'm happy to bow to your superior knowledge of Paul Manafort and all these other people of whom you have first-hand knowledge.

It doesn't matter how many times, in how many threads, you try to weasel out of it, you're not going to win this one.

TRUMP LIED.  And after all the outrage over his remarks, he finally decides to claim that he was being sarcastic.

Really Kiwi...Again with the falsehoods and trying to "win this one" with a typo.  :rolleyes:

Being stubborn with your bluster or large red font won't increase the accuracy or truthfulness of what you're posting.

You keep trying to convince me you're making some sort of valid argument when you're not. At this point you're posting nothing more than petty and spiteful comments to make it appear as though you still have a legitimate claim when it's already obvious you don't.

Learn to quit when you're behind. You're becoming dull and monotonous in your repetition.

Brass
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 22, 2016, 08:45:33 AM
So you are now able to get inside my head to determine how I decided to name the article?

Don't put words in my narratives that don't exist. I was responding to your comment I quoted...
Quote
I titled this before knowledge of that ledger was reported.

I hope you're not denying you posted the link. You're referring to it in the next paragraph.

No, the NYT piece was not the only piece I read.  But it was the only one I linked.

Manafort has also worked for such stellar humanitarians as Ferdinand Marcos, Jonas Savimbi, Mobutu Sese Seko, Sani Abacha, Siad Barre, the entire nation of Saudi Arabia, and of course, Viktor Yanukovych.  So, he has a history spanning 30 odd years, of aiding the most vile human rights abusers in the world, all for his ounce of gold.

How anyone could defend the record of a man who has demonstrated by deeds that money matters more than the blood of innocents is beyond the pale.

Already discussed up thread. You do realize that there are current Clinton staff, one I mentioned up thread, that worked alongside Manafort, yes? No condemnation for them I note.

Here's another...What about Lanny Davis who is today a Clinton surrogate appearing on different media outlets supporting Hillary and "creatively" slamming Trump on a regular basis?...

SPECIAL REPORT-Putin's allies channelled billions to Ukraine oligarch

..."The Ukrainian oligarch has said the allegations are "without foundation" and has accused Washington of acting for "purely political reasons." He has hired an all-star legal defence team. It includes Lanny Davis, who helped President Bill Clinton weather a series of White House scandals in the 1990s."...

www.reuters.com (http://www.reuters.com/article/russia-capitalism-gas-special-report-pix-idUSL3N0TF4QD20141126)

Here's a Clinton lawyer and advocate who has confirmed ties to Firtash, the guy you unsuccessfully tried to tie Manafort to as being a fellow destroyer of Ukraine.

No outrage for him?

Brass
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Muzh on August 22, 2016, 09:00:04 AM

Manafort has also worked for such stellar humanitarians as Ferdinand Marcos, Jonas Savimbi, Mobutu Sese Seko, Sani Abacha, Siad Barre, the entire nation of Saudi Arabia, and of course, Viktor Yanukovych.  So, he has a history spanning 30 odd years, of aiding the most vile human rights abusers in the world, all for his ounce of gold.



At least these guys were right-wingers.  ;)
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 22, 2016, 09:21:09 AM

At least these guys were right-wingers.  ;)

So was this guy...

As Thousands Flee Ivory Coast, Former Clinton Adviser Lanny Davis is Paid Lobbyist for President Who Refuses to Cede Power

www.democracynow.org (http://www.democracynow.org/2010/12/27/horace_campbell_on_ivory_coast_crisis)

..."In October 2011, the International Criminal Court opened an investigation into acts of violence committed during the conflict after the election, and ICC chief prosecutor Luis Moreno Ocampo visited the country. The ICC formally issued an arrest warrant for Gbagbo, charging him with four counts of crimes against humanity – murder, rape and other forms of sexual violence, persecution and "other inhuman acts", allegedly committed between 16 December 2010 and 12 April 2011"...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurent_Gbagbo

Still no outrage or is it copacetic because Lanny's a Democrat?

Brass
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Muzh on August 22, 2016, 09:47:02 AM
So was this guy...

As Thousands Flee Ivory Coast, Former Clinton Adviser Lanny Davis is Paid Lobbyist for President Who Refuses to Cede Power

www.democracynow.org (http://www.democracynow.org/2010/12/27/horace_campbell_on_ivory_coast_crisis)

..."In October 2011, the International Criminal Court opened an investigation into acts of violence committed during the conflict after the election, and ICC chief prosecutor Luis Moreno Ocampo visited the country. The ICC formally issued an arrest warrant for Gbagbo, charging him with four counts of crimes against humanity – murder, rape and other forms of sexual violence, persecution and "other inhuman acts", allegedly committed between 16 December 2010 and 12 April 2011"...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurent_Gbagbo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurent_Gbagbo)

Still no outrage or is it copacetic because Lanny's a Democrat?

Brass


No, he is a scumbag.  ;)
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 22, 2016, 10:00:24 AM

No, he is a scumbag.  ;)

Well, that's a start at least. ;D

Brass
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Muzh on August 22, 2016, 10:26:05 AM
Well, that's a start at least. ;D

Brass


My friend, I have no tolerance for scumbags, be they from the Right, Left or Center. A scumbag is a scumbag, period.  ;)
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 22, 2016, 10:46:10 AM
Exactly.  But this thread is about the scumbag who didn't care if he ruined Ukraine. :P
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Muzh on August 22, 2016, 11:06:25 AM
Exactly.  But this thread is about the scumbag who didn't care if he ruined Ukraine. :P


Yep, and since I have vested interest here, he is the biggest scumbad of them all.  ;)
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 22, 2016, 11:13:23 AM
Exactly.  But this thread is about the scumbag who didn't care if he ruined Ukraine. :P

A speculation you have yet to establish. ;)

Brass
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 22, 2016, 11:23:09 AM
LOL.  I think I have established it. :P
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 22, 2016, 12:59:46 PM
LOL.  I think I have established it. :P

I'll clarify...You have yet to substantiate. You've indeed established you're speculating.  ;)

Brass
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Anotherkiwi on August 22, 2016, 06:13:11 PM
Really Kiwi...Again with the falsehoods and trying to "win this one" with a typo.  :rolleyes:

Being stubborn with your bluster or large red font won't increase the accuracy or truthfulness of what you're posting.

You keep trying to convince me you're making some sort of valid argument when you're not. At this point you're posting nothing more than petty and spiteful comments to make it appear as though you still have a legitimate claim when it's already obvious you don't.

Learn to quit when you're behind. You're becoming dull and monotonous in your repetition.

Brass

I could get really, REALLY rude when I see such utter crap posted time and again.

I HAVE MADE ONE POINT ONLY - THAT TRUMP LIED WHEN HE SAID THAT OBAMA FOUNDED ISIS.  I have posted absolutely nothing about Paul Manafort, so I still have no idea why you persist in linking my posts about Trump to this person.  I had never even heard of him until this thread started, so why would I possibly comment on someone I know nothing about?  I STILL HAVEN'T.

Why are my comments petty and spiteful?  Again, I had posted only one thing - that Trump lied.  You compounded your folly in defending that lie by then lying yourself, and now you're all defensive about me calling you out.  It's certainly not me that's being petty and spiteful.  Any bluster is coming from you, not from me.  And I'm certainly no more dull or repetitious than you.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: jone on August 25, 2016, 01:01:58 PM
Boe selected this individual because he reportedly had connection to YanuKonvict.  However, it is amazing how silent she is on other people that have influenced the US government's actions.

"Consider the curious case of Victor Pinchuk, a Ukrainian steel magnate who donated over $8 million to the Clinton Foundation and had committed to giving as much as $20 million more to its initiatives. The Washington Post’s Tom Hamburger reported last October that Pinchuk had used his Clinton Foundation connections to get a meeting with a “top Clinton aide” at State, but that’s hardly all his $8 million bought. While Secretary of State, Clinton hosted a dinner for her foundation’s donors, including Pinchuk, who had hired longtime Clintonista Douglas Schoen to lobby the State Department on behalf of the Yanukovich government – the pro-Russian regime that Ukrainians sacked in late 2013, a change that was supported by the Obama administration.

But wait, as television pitchmen say – there’s more! At the same time as Pinchuk was lobbying State and getting invited to close access dinner events through his Clinton Foundation connections, he had connections of a very different kind through his businesses. Newsweek reported in April 2015 that Pinchuk had been selling oil pipeline and railroad equipment to Iran in 2011 and 2012, in apparent violation of the tight sanctions placed on Tehran over their nuclear-weapons development.

Fred Fleitz, former chief of staff to John Bolton when the latter was Undersecretary of State for Arms Control in the Bush Administration, wrote last year that the lack of action by the State Department was stunning. “Congress needs to determine why sanctions were not imposed in this case,” Fleitz wrote, “and whether pressure was put on lower level State Department officials to overlook this violation.” Even if no overt pressure was put on underlings, how many of them would have felt comfortable with pressing a case against a figure that Hillary Clinton invited to dinner?"

This is true influence peddling.  But Manafort seemed to be an easy target.  As was pointed out above, she is somewhat selective as to who she chooses to demonstrate as corrupt.

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Columns/2016/08/25/Hillary-Lied-Withheld-Evidence-Traded-Power-Money-and-Could-Be-President
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: jone on August 25, 2016, 01:15:26 PM
Perhaps there was smoke, without fire.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 25, 2016, 01:19:34 PM
My point was about ties to Yanukovych, whose actions resulted not only in Euromaidan, but also, the war in Donbas.  Pinchuk (who is, I believe, Kuchma's son in law) is corrupt.  But he didn't cause the deaths of thousands of innocent Ukrainians.  He didn't reverse the long fought achievement of removing corruption at the highest echelons of Ukrainian courts, which Yanukovych did within months of taking power.  Pinchuk didn't remove tariffs from Ukrainian exports for the benefit of a foreign operative's (Manafort's) US client (Cargill). 


Had Tymoshenko won the presidential election, and had she caused the damage to Ukraine that Yanukovych did, I'd be writing about Jim Slattery.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on August 25, 2016, 01:28:11 PM
Pinchuk had used his Clinton Foundation connections to get a meeting with a “top Clinton aide” at State, but that’s hardly all his $8 million bought. While Secretary of State, Clinton hosted a dinner for her foundation’s donors, including Pinchuk, who had hired longtime Clintonista Douglas Schoen to lobby the State Department on behalf of the Yanukovich government – the pro-Russian regime that Ukrainians sacked in late 2013, a change that was supported by the Obama administration.


Speculation, speculation, speculation. Has it occurred to anybody that the millions of dollars donated to the Clinton Foundation by pro Russians, Arabs, and liberal businessmen to get meetings with the State Department were for feeding kids in Africa, improving education, and providing clean drinking water? Has it occurred to anybody that these people have big hearts and that out of all the charities that does the same kind of work, the Clinton Foundation was the best qualified to get the job done?
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: jone on August 25, 2016, 01:55:31 PM
Boe,

Do you have any idea how inane your explanation sounds? You have not demonstrated that Manafort was directly involved in the deaths of the people at Maidan.  Your claimed association for him is INDIRECT.  Yet, here is a Ukrainian Oligarch who is tied to the Clinton charity and allegations of influence peddling and you explain that you overlook him because?  Why?  Because he did not do anything directly to influence Ukrainian politics?  Do we need to draw lines for you, here? 
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 25, 2016, 02:00:37 PM
I didn't say he was directly involved.  However, he was instrumental in putting into power an exceptionally corrupt individual who was, in fact, attempting to destroy Ukraine's democracy. 


If you want to discuss the Clinton/Pinchuk connection, start your own thread.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 25, 2016, 02:36:40 PM
Based on Bo's association fallacy, I now declare Hillary Clinton is the true destroyer of Ukraine's democracy because Jon Podesta and the company he founded currently being run by his brother is also involved with the former Yanukovych government.

John Podesta And Podesta Group Under Investigation By FBI And DOJ


 ..."The FBI and Justice Department have launched an investigation into whether the Podesta Group, the lobbying and public relations firm co-founded by Hillary Clinton presidential campaign chairman John Podesta, has any connections to alleged corruption that occurred in the administration of former President of Ukraine Viktor Yanukovych."...

..."The Podesta Group, run by John Podesta’s brother Tony Podesta, was retained by the Russia-controlled firm UraniumOne in 2012, 2014, and 2015, to lobby Hillary Clinton’s State Department. The lobbying firm was paid a total of $180,000 according to public records.

Yanukovych took office in February 2010. He was forced to flee to Russian after a political uprising in Ukraine. Federal prosecutors are probing the work Yanukovych’s regime paid the Podesta Group to do while he was the head of the Ukrainian government.

As it was first detailed in the New York Times bestselling book Clinton Cash, Uranium One — which hired the Podesta Group — is the firm that funneled millions to the Clinton Foundation as the Russian government gained ownership of the company.

According to the New York Times, Russian President Vladimir Putin had a “goal of controlling much of the global uranium supply chain.”...

www.technocracy.news (http://www.technocracy.news/index.php/2016/08/23/john-podesta-and-podesta-group-under-investigation-by-fbi-and-doj/)

Yes, sir...She's guilty as sin...Don't try to talk me out of it now. My mind's made up because Hillary and her campaign manager are Democrats and obviously the devil's spawn so they must be guilty!...Besides, I don't like Democrats therefor my unsubstantiated speculation is justified.  ;D

Brass


Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Slumba on August 25, 2016, 03:03:43 PM
I find it odd that Manafort is being blamed - does he even speak Russian or Ukrainian - for the acts of Yanuk.

If Manafort was his PR guy, all he did was spin what he could  - Yanuk and his cronies still had to do everything else.

Including paying Democrat-connected USA firms to handle lobbying.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on August 25, 2016, 03:24:09 PM
I find it odd that Manafort is being blamed - does he even speak Russian or Ukrainian - for the acts of Yanuk.

If Manafort was his PR guy, all he did was spin what he could  - Yanuk and his cronies still had to do everything else.

Including paying Democrat-connected USA firms to handle lobbying.

Why? Manafort's character assassination was orchestrated by the NYT, left wing media and those that support Hillary from day one. Bo dutifully did her part for the "I'm with her" cause by starting a couple of speculative topics right here. ;)

Brass
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 26, 2016, 11:37:37 AM
I find it odd that Manafort is being blamed - does he even speak Russian or Ukrainian - for the acts of Yanuk.

If Manafort was his PR guy, all he did was spin what he could  - Yanuk and his cronies still had to do everything else.

Including paying Democrat-connected USA firms to handle lobbying.


He leveraged his work with Yanukovych for post election influence.  That is the issue.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on March 23, 2017, 09:26:41 PM
I admit, I was wrong in the thread title header here.  Paul Manafort is also the destroyer of Georgian democracy, and perhaps any attempts of any groups to build democracy in Uzbekistan and Tajikistan.

Quote
Manafort proposed extending his existing work in eastern Europe to Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and Georgia, where he pledged to bolster the legitimacy of governments friendly to Putin and undercut anti-Russian figures through political campaigns, nonprofit front groups and media operations.

http://apnews.com/122ae0b5848345faa88108a03de40c5a (http://apnews.com/122ae0b5848345faa88108a03de40c5a)
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on March 23, 2017, 10:49:33 PM

Manafort had a business relationship with Russians. He was paid to do a job. He was paid to help past Republican presidents with the election. He will help anybody that pays him. I don't know if he were friends or liked those Russians but I do know it wasn't too long ago Hillary and Obama tried to get friendly with Putin and make a big public showing by giving Putin a reset button to show the world they'll do a better job than Bush did with Russia. Ask Ukraine how that turned out.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: JayH on May 30, 2017, 01:05:03 AM
The wheels are turning. Manafort is on Ukrainian wanted lists .
What the FBI investigation will give them is the money trail.

Ukrainians Say FBI Questioning Them About Paul Manafort’s Past

KIEV—The Ukrainian parliamentarian Mustafa Nayyem says the FBI has come to him at last, asking about Paul Manafort, who had a long record as a political operative serving pro-Russian figures here before he became the campaign manager for Donald Trump last year.
Nayyem and other Ukrainian officials say they are not only willing to cooperate with the FBI, they have been trying to do that for years, but only recently did American law enforcement show any interest.
For its part, the FBI declined to comment on what now is an inquiry headed by its former director and now special counsel, Robert Mueller. But there is little question that Manafort is at or near the center of the narrative it is putting together about Russian interference in the U.S. presidential elections and the extent of collusion, or not, between Moscow and members of Trump’s campaign team.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2017/05/26/ukrainians-say-fbi-questioning-them-about-manafortat-last?source=TDB&via=FB_Page
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on June 28, 2017, 07:29:17 AM
Well, after seven pages of unmitigated BS by the OP in this topic, including the subject title. The matter is finally settled...

Jun 27, 2017 

Ukraine Says There's No Evidence of Illicit Payments to Manafort

..."Anti-corruption investigators in the ex-Soviet republic said last year that they’d found ledgers showing $12.7 million in undisclosed cash payments between 2007 and 2012 earmarked for Paul Manafort from Viktor Yanukovych’s Party of Regions. But a probe uncovered no evidence, chief anti-graft prosecutor Nazar Kholodnytskyi told Ukrainian television.

“There were no Manafort signatures on any page of this ledger," he said late Monday."...

www.bloomberg.com (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-27/ukraine-says-there-s-no-evidence-of-illicit-payments-to-manafort)

Anyone interested in the real story of Manafort's time and earnings in Ukraine can read about it here...

Manafort Discloses $17 Million in Payments for Ukrainian Work

www.bloomberg.com (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-28/manafort-discloses-17-million-in-payments-for-ukrainian-work)

It should be noted that Manafort being cleared is not being reported by any liberal media outlets in direct contrast to the liberal media's 24/7 coverage when the false news and speculation was originally floated.

However, it is being reported, repleate with more liberal media generated fake news and speculation, as to why he made this routine business filing. :rolleyes:

Brass
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on June 28, 2017, 05:29:12 PM
None of which changes the fact that Paul Manafort worked to destroy Ukrainian democracy.  The ties to Russian oligarchs who have always had their fingers in Ukrainian internal affairs (such as Deripaska) are also troubling. 
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on June 28, 2017, 05:58:50 PM
As for Ukraine dropping investigation of Manafort, old news.

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2016-11-29/ukraine-prepares-trump (http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2016-11-29/ukraine-prepares-trump)

It's called "realpolitik".
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on June 29, 2017, 06:21:47 AM
As for Ukraine dropping investigation of Manafort, old news.

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2016-11-29/ukraine-prepares-trump (http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2016-11-29/ukraine-prepares-trump)

It's called "realpolitik".

Apparently not "old" enough for you to post a retraction regarding this fabricated smear topic you started, though. :rolleyes:

Brass
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on June 29, 2017, 11:24:46 AM
Your opinion that this is a "smear topic" is just that.  Nothing more.

Paul Manafort works with Russian oligarchs.  Even he does not deny this.  Many of his Russian oligarch "clients" have histories of meddling in Ukraine.  Through that Russian connection, Manafort helped bring Yanukovych to power.  He was paid US $17 million in money stolen by members of the Party of Regions to bring Yanukovych to power.  All of those actions eroded Ukrainian democracy, for, say what you will about Yushchenko (he's an idiot and a thief), under his leadership, Ukrainian democracy flourished. 

Finally, Manafort does not deny working for brutal dictators - Macros, Seko, Savimbi.  He seems to have a penchant for representing the interests of anti democratic authoritarian leaders.  And yet you seem to think he is a swell guy. 
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on June 29, 2017, 06:11:37 PM
Your opinion that this is a "smear topic" is just that.  Nothing more.

Paul Manafort works with Russian oligarchs.  Even he does not deny this.  Many of his Russian oligarch "clients" have histories of meddling in Ukraine.  Through that Russian connection, Manafort helped bring Yanukovych to power.  He was paid US $17 million in money stolen by members of the Party of Regions to bring Yanukovych to power.  All of those actions eroded Ukrainian democracy, for, say what you will about Yushchenko (he's an idiot and a thief), under his leadership, Ukrainian democracy flourished. 

Finally, Manafort does not deny working for brutal dictators - Macros, Seko, Savimbi.  He seems to have a penchant for representing the interests of anti democratic authoritarian leaders.  And yet you seem to think he is a swell guy.

And your bizarre liberal culture based hatred resets and the vicious cycle starts again. :rolleyes:

It's just been shown to you that your seven page diatribe was based on ... nothing, nada, zilch ...yet you ignore it and spew even more nonsense as if your tirade hasn't already just been thoroughly discredited .

I told you your 'I'm with her' Manafort smear campaign was bogus when you posted it and all that's happened here is that's now been undeniably proven. It's not a signal for you to post even more vitriol.

You already own the last seven pages of malicious and misconstrued rhetoric. Try not to continue adding to your misdeed.

Brass
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on June 29, 2017, 07:34:59 PM
The Kreskin of the forum is at it again.  He believes he knows others' minds and motivations better than they do. 

BTW, Kreskin, unlike you, I am not divorced.  Because, in accordance with my "very liberal values", I don't believe in divorce.  Or in second marriages, whether the result of death or divorce.  I assume all the "true conservatives" on the forum hold such "liberal" views.

When I posted this, I didn't know Manafort's political leanings, and still don't, and don't care.  This is, after all, ostensibly a forum devoted to the FSU, and an American who has taken $17 million (Manafort has reported this, so the figure is accurate), stolen by a Ukrainian political party from government sources, to fund the election of a man who (a) unilaterally (and illegally) amended Ukraine's constitution; (b) fired all independent judges, replacing them with hacks who would do as they are told; (c) paid bribes of over $2 billion, or over $1 million for every day he was in power; (d) had journalists arrested; (e) jailed political opponents; (f)  stopped Ukraine's attempt to integrate more closely with the EU; and (g) gave orders to shoot at his own people.

Now, given Manafort's connections with Russian oligarchs, none of the above is surprising, nor is the outcome. 

So, in the end, the title thread stands.  Paul Manafort is a destroyer of Ukrainian democracy.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on June 30, 2017, 11:29:21 AM
The NYT piece says he worked as a strategist for the Republicans and worked in the Reagan administration.  Nowhere does it state he is a Republican, and at no time have I assumed he is, just as I have not assumed he is a ruthless killer based on his other clients.


The main point I made at the time, and continue to hold, is that Paul Manafort helped a Ukrainian leader intent on reversing the course of democracy in the country. 
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: krimster2 on June 30, 2017, 03:15:26 PM
OMG!!!

I just stopped by for a second, to see "how are things"?

Brass,
PLZ do not speculate on Bo's "bleeding plastic face-lift scars", for all that is good and holy, I am really begging you here!

OK, well ya know I have written here in the past about what it was like living with my (Soviet)/Ukrainian born wife and our two children in Ukraine for 3 years.
Alas, I never wrote about what it was like being a wealthy, sub-40 year old heterosexual man on a 6 month sabbatical in Kiev(back then)from June 1996 until Dec 1996, a time period from when there was hardly any exposure to foreigners.  That was A LOT MORE INTERESTING!


 
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on July 04, 2017, 11:49:42 AM
The Kreskin of the forum is at it again.  He believes he knows others' minds and motivations better than they do. 

BTW, Kreskin, unlike you, I am not divorced.  Because, in accordance with my "very liberal values", I don't believe in divorce.  Or in second marriages, whether the result of death or divorce.  I assume all the "true conservatives" on the forum hold such "liberal" views.

When I posted this, I didn't know Manafort's political leanings, and still don't, and don't care.  This is, after all, ostensibly a forum devoted to the FSU, and an American who has taken $17 million (Manafort has reported this, so the figure is accurate), stolen by a Ukrainian political party from government sources, to fund the election of a man who (a) unilaterally (and illegally) amended Ukraine's constitution; (b) fired all independent judges, replacing them with hacks who would do as they are told; (c) paid bribes of over $2 billion, or over $1 million for every day he was in power; (d) had journalists arrested; (e) jailed political opponents; (f)  stopped Ukraine's attempt to integrate more closely with the EU; and (g) gave orders to shoot at his own people.

Now, given Manafort's connections with Russian oligarchs, none of the above is surprising, nor is the outcome. 

So, in the end, the title thread stands.  Paul Manafort is a destroyer of Ukrainian democracy.

The NYT piece says he worked as a strategist for the Republicans and worked in the Reagan administration.  Nowhere does it state he is a Republican, and at no time have I assumed he is, just as I have not assumed he is a ruthless killer based on his other clients.


The main point I made at the time, and continue to hold, is that Paul Manafort helped a Ukrainian leader intent on reversing the course of democracy in the country. 

From the link in your own opening post...

..."He began his career in Republican politics in the 1970s"...

www.nytimes.com (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/01/us/paul-manafort-ukraine-donald-trump.html?rref=collection%2Fnewseventcollection%2FPresidential%20Election%202016&action=click&contentCollection=Politics&module=Collection&region=Marginalia&src=me&version=newsevent&pgtype=article)

Now, you can deny and deflect as much as you like but I'd say that's a conclusive statement.

Brass


Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: msmob on July 04, 2017, 11:22:58 PM


It is clear - to me - that anyone choosing such a 'lobbyist' was playing with fire - given their background ...

An interesting thread, about someone I'd never heard of and I surprised anyone would want to 'defend' - based on their former client list - they followed the money - rather than principle.

Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: ML on August 15, 2017, 07:16:03 PM
An interesting thread, about someone I'd never heard of and I surprised anyone would want to 'defend' - based on their former client list - they followed the money - rather than principle.

I didn't read all this thread, but just a word here about this comment.

Lawyers (for instance) quite often do (and sometimes are required to) defend those whom they don't like or don't agree with.

I assume the same applies to people like Manafort. 
i.e.  He will work for anyone who pays him.

So those who need help don't need to see who he has worked for in the past.  They are only concerned about his effectiveness.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Anotherkiwi on August 15, 2017, 07:21:25 PM
So those who need help don't need to see who he has worked for in the past.  They are only concerned about his effectiveness.

Of course but, to find that out, they WOULD have to see who he had worked for - and how effective he was in what he was supposed to do for those previous employers.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on August 15, 2017, 07:48:04 PM
I didn't read all this thread, but just a word here about this comment.

Lawyers (for instance) quite often do (and sometimes are required to) defend those whom they don't like or don't agree with.

I assume the same applies to people like Manafort. 
i.e.  He will work for anyone who pays him.

So those who need help don't need to see who he has worked for in the past.  They are only concerned about his effectiveness.


He is being investigated for money laundering. 


I think there is a difference between defending a criminal because you believe in the rule of law, and advancing the personal interests of dictators who have often killed thousands or more, and usually have stolen huge sums of money from their countries' treasuries.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: msmob on August 15, 2017, 10:07:29 PM
Agree with Boethius, here ..  The analogy with lawyers is a poor one - IMHO.

Given the time taken to build a case - I'd be surprised if anything incriminating was found at his home.. The standard practice is to  state the computers were leased and wiped after ....Russia 2018 World Cup Football campaign..

Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: ML on August 19, 2017, 08:06:50 AM
I think there is some degree of parallel between lawyers and other professions.

But lawyers often get a pass on their actions, and rightly so given our legal system based on idea everyone entitled to defense.

However, others should also get some benefit of the doubt in their actions.

There was a locally famous case here in my university town.

A finance professor was hired to provide expert testimony against the state education department in a case involving funding of school districts.

This professor was then called into the Provosts office and lectured about the appropriateness of his actions in arguing against the state.

The finance professor then mentioned how one of the most prominent law professors at the university had several times represented employees in lawsuits against this university.

The Provost became unnerved, mouth dry and fumbled around with words trying to say that he really didn't mind what this finance professor had done and had really just wanted to discuss how the case was progressing.

It's just one example of the double standards allowed.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: JayH on August 23, 2017, 12:44:01 AM
ML -- you are getting a few things confused here. Acting as a consultant or a lawyer can put you in awkward places that is fair comment -- but the wider information says something else was happening here.
Supporting Trump seems to be making people blind to using their common sense  -- every pointer by anyone being objective -- says he is in trouble --big trouble . Look at the cast who has been around him -- with the benefit of hindsight  -- not exactly the people too many would choose.Look at the people he admires -- not too many people agree with Trump. Then look objectively at Trump himself -that then says it all.
In relation to Manafort --think about why he showed up in Trump orbit-- and the connections both ways that made it happen  .Look at the one issue TRump/Manafort had removed from GOP platform and ask yourself whose interests that was in?
It is beyond credible that all that was coincidental.
Trump will not survive .FULL STOP . The issue is the damage he does and causes in the meanwhile -- to the US itself -- and the greater world at large.
Meanwhile --
 

Pressure on Manafort grows as feds track more income, possible money laundering



Two sources familiar with the inquiry tell McClatchy that investigators are working to confirm information indicating that Manafort and the consulting firms he led earned between $80 million and $100 million over a decade from pro-Moscow Ukrainian and Russian clients.

Mueller’s expanded foc

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article168495837.html
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: ML on August 23, 2017, 06:36:02 AM

Two sources familiar with the inquiry tell McClatchy that investigators are working to confirm information indicating that Manafort and the consulting firms he led earned between $80 million and $100 million over a decade from pro-Moscow Ukrainian and Russian clients.

Mueller’s expanded foc

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article168495837.html

Hey look, no one is more pro-Ukrainian here than me.

But I just try to discuss things logically.

There is nothing wrong with any consultant working for any client.
They don't even have to believe their client is the best or most worthy candidate; just as lawyers don't have to be concerned if their client is guilty or not.

It's completely silly now for investigations into what persons or countries Trump or anyone else had dealings with in the past.

I have had meetings with dozens of Russian companies and Russian executives in the past and earned money from those meetings.  Now I would walk across the street to avoid them.
Should my previous meetings be held against me when I run for office?
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on August 23, 2017, 09:58:57 AM

The IRS and feds can find mistakes on anybody's tax return and fine them or threaten jail time. When a guy like Manafort deals with a lot of money, there will be mistakes. The feds are trying to find mistakes so they can get Manafort to agree to cooperate. Doesn't mean Manafort has anything on Trump or made mistakes calculating the taxes he owed on purpose to save himself a few buck. I've hired CPAs to do my taxes and the IRS comes back correcting them or years later saying they detected a mistake and now I owe them money plus interest. Professionals make mistakes even when doing simple tax returns.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on October 30, 2017, 07:49:31 AM
Manafort indicted for money laundering and tax fraud.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/10/30/us/politics/paul-manafort-indicted.html?action=click&module=&pgtype=Homepage
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on October 30, 2017, 08:00:43 AM
Charges listed below. Some people may be disappointed that there's nothing that pertains to Trump in there.


http://www.justice.gov/file/1007271/download
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: GQBlues on October 30, 2017, 08:38:37 AM
Charges listed below. Some people may be disappointed that there's nothing that pertains to Trump in there.


That simple fact doesn't matter to these numb nuts. Nor does it matter and a concern that all/most of the unmasking were prompted by the unsubstantiated, Hillary/DNC - funded political smearing, *dossier* that caused this year long stupidity and were gobbled up by the liberal media and its gullible followers.


Nor would they admit that Manafort was closely working with the likes of the Podesta brothers related to the Uranium One scandal.


http://www.oann.com/podesta-group-manafort-mediated-russia-obama-wh-uranium-one-deal/
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: msmob on October 30, 2017, 10:45:28 AM
Jeez, GCB

Next you'll still be telling us Tiger will win more Championships than he won before he went off the rails .. ;D

'Numb nuts' - to me are US citizens who voted at all, given the paucity of your candidates- and who still think the 'Emperor is wearing clothes'

The current incumbent is a walking disaster area - surrounded by disaster areas

Methinks you are being a trifle hasty in being so dismissive of the 'distance' these disaster areas are from the house

HINT: I get my news from many sources and the BBC is not a 'liberal' US news agency
 
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: GQBlues on October 30, 2017, 12:04:12 PM
Jeez, GCB

Next you'll still be telling us Tiger will win more Championships than he won before he went off the rails .. ;D

'Numb nuts' - to me are US citizens who voted at all, given the paucity of your candidates- and who still think the 'Emperor is wearing clothes'

The current incumbent is a walking disaster area - surrounded by disaster areas

Methinks you are being a trifle hasty in being so dismissive of the 'distance' these disaster areas are from the house

HINT: I get my news from many sources and the BBC is not a 'liberal' US news agency


Translation: Moby still believes the 'dossier' is legitimate, and there in fact is a clear evidence that Trump did collude with Russia in winning the election and Hillary have nothing to do with it. Yup, we get that. Glad you fished that out of BBC's reporting.


 :rolleyes:


As for walking disaster, let's see..in less than a year ISIS (Obama's proverbial 'JV Team) is all but wiped-out in their previously held strong-hold. GDP's in the 3 percentile. Labor participation is on an all-time high. Nasdaq / Dow Jones on a record-breaking trend..


Personal anecdote: Our company, at last quarter report ( and since election), had amassed nearly (threefold - 275%) of our annual revenue. My team alone had turned down additional work as we could no longer find labor & equipment available to meet our schedule. Private investors/investment are tripping each other in our region trying to get projects rolling, etc..


Just because your silly *BBC* doesn't/couldn't report anything without some silly Trump-thrashing garbage in it, and mostly *rely* on US's liberal garbage, doesn't denote actual reality here.


You should be happy, considering the UK is our #1 dependent on anything and everything since WWII's dust settled down. And one which you cannot deny. Fact of the matter is, all we really have to do since is tell you folks and your queen how high to jump.


 :P

Keep trying...as for Tiger, DAH MAN!. Go ask Rory et all and see what he thinks'feel about THE Dude!
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: GQBlues on October 30, 2017, 01:56:31 PM
A good example of Fake News continuing itself despite the recent revelations.

A Reuters report released today is titled: Two ex-Trump aides charged in Russia probe, third pleads guilty

The article contains statement to (a fodder read for the numb nut readers at large) maintain Trump is somehow tied into any, if subtly, criminal activities by persons in his campaign team despite those actions were committed years before becoming part of Trump's campaign - and more importantly - during their association with Hillary Clinton/Clintons.

The opening salvo reads:

Quote
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Federal investigators probing Russian interference in the 2016 U.S. election charged President Donald Trump's former campaign manager Paul Manafort and another aide, Rick Gates, with money laundering on Monday.

A third former Trump adviser, George Papadopoulos, pleaded guilty in early October to lying to the FBI, it was announced on Monday.

It was a sharp escalation of U.S. Justice Department Special Counsel Robert Mueller's five-month-old investigation into alleged Russian efforts to tilt the election in Trump's favor, and into potential collusion by Trump aides....

Three short sentences filled with alleged criminal activities and charges by others, while attaching Trump's name 4x alongside them.

Then there is this itsy-bitsy benign one sentence nestled neatly within that said:

"...Neither Trump nor his campaign was mentioned in the indictment against the pair. The charges, some going back more than a decade, center on Manafort's work for Ukraine...."

Without so much as a citation, or quote, on who made that statement and precisely which charges fell on 'years prior' to their association/hiring, or what charges, if any, were committed 'during'.

- This is the type of garbage all you numb nuts hang on to with your gullibility.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-charges-indictment/two-ex-trump-aides-charged-in-russia-probe-third-pleads-guilty-idUSKBN1CZ1KT (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-charges-indictment/two-ex-trump-aides-charged-in-russia-probe-third-pleads-guilty-idUSKBN1CZ1KT)
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: calmissile on October 30, 2017, 02:28:45 PM
A good example of what the anti-Trumpers use for news to troll the forum!
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: JayH on October 30, 2017, 03:14:21 PM
The ridiculous comments of some Trumpaphiles has become more obvious to any fair minded observer.
For the record-these charges are only a small part of the overall investigation. The connection of these individuals to the Trump campaign is a matter of record.
If there was ever a time for the Trump justifiers to SHUT UP-- this would be it !

The charges do directly relate to the thread title here.

What It Means: The Indictment of Manafort and Gates

Defendants PAUL J. MANAFORT, JR., (MANAFORT) and RICHARD W. GATES III (GATES) served for years as political consultants and lobbyists. Between at least 2006 and 2015, MANAFORT and GATES acted as unregistered agents of the Government of Ukraine, the Party of Regions (a Ukrainian political party whose leader Viktor Yanukovych was President from 2010 to 2014), Yanukovych, and the Opposition Bloc (a successor to the Party of Regions that formed in 2014 when Yanukovych fled to Russia). MANAFORT and GATES generated tens of millions of dollars in income as a result of their Ukraine work. In order to hide Ukraine payments from United States authorities, from approximately 2006 through at least 2016, MANAFORT and GATES laundered the money through scores of United States and foreign corporations, partnerships and bank accounts.

The opening paragraph of the indictment lays out a narrative framework for understanding the complex details subsequent pages delve into. In brief, prosecutors contend that Mr. Manafort and Mr. Gates violated a law that requires Americans to register and disclose activities undertaken as agents of a foreign power, and then that they took steps to launder tens of millions of dollars in income from that work and to evade paying taxes on it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/30/us/politics/special-counsel-indictments.html?action=click&contentCollection=us&module=NextInCollection&region=Footer&pgtype=article&version=newsevent&rref=collection%2Fnews-event%2Frussian-election-hacking
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Anotherkiwi on October 30, 2017, 04:21:39 PM
...Nor does it matter and a concern that all/most of the unmasking were prompted by the unsubstantiated, Hillary/DNC - funded political smearing, *dossier* that caused this year long stupidity and were gobbled up by the liberal media and its gullible followers.

Sure, the Democrats eventually produced the dossier - but you seem to conveniently forget that it was originally conceived and funded by Republicans who didn't want Trump as a candidate in the first place.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: msmob on October 30, 2017, 04:28:41 PM

Translation: Moby still believes the 'dossier' is legitimate, and there in fact is a clear evidence that Trump did collude with Russia in winning the election and Hillary have nothing to do with it. Yup, we get that. Glad you fished that out of BBC's reporting.

NO, this is like deasling with a TellyTubby !

I'm not at all certain that certain dossiers are factual... I AM - however certain that the 'gentleman' who forms the title of THIS thread has a lousy track record of 'politicians' he promoted... and dubious funding sources - let alone money laundering...

A pretty poor attempt at dodging reality...


 :rolleyes:


You should be happy, considering the UK is our #1 dependent on anything and everything since WWII's dust settled down. And one which you cannot deny. Fact of the matter is, all we really have to do since is tell you folks and your queen how high to jump.

I can only assume this 'republican' stance ( as opposed to monarchist !) is because you seek to 'rile' ? ...   

IF you were paying attention to reality - as appertaining to US/UK relations - you'd know that 'we' haven't obeyed you by having the 'cheek' to leave the EU - as the CIA will need to bug EU leaders phones (again )- rather than relying on Brits spilling..





Keep trying...as for Tiger, DAH MAN!. Go ask Rory et all and see what he thinks'feel about THE Dude![/font]

Rory's from my home town and went to the same school - wouldn't want him to 'hurt your feelinz' - with a few home truths ;)


Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: calmissile on October 30, 2017, 04:30:36 PM
No one has forgot anything!  The opposition to Trump by some Republicans did fund opposition research.  So what, it happens every election?  The Republican opposition research did not include paying for a phony/fake report with outlandish, untrue, personal allegations against Trump.  That was the Democrat rats in Hillary's camp!
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: GQBlues on October 30, 2017, 04:35:57 PM
Sure, the Democrats eventually produced the dossier - but you seem to conveniently forget that it was originally conceived and funded by Republicans who didn't want Trump as a candidate in the first place.


...but never got it rolling. It wasn't until the 'hiring' of Christopher Steele, the proverbial British 'spy', by none other than the DNC and Hillary Clinton, that it grew legs and started waffling through the numb nut mainstream.


Don't get me wrong, I never dismissed the NeverTrump conservative idiots for their part. The GOP and DNC are two-sides of the same coin. Largely the reason of my support to POTUS Trump to drain the current DC swamp. The very first thing McConnell told Trump after the election was to stop the 'Drain the Swamp' talk. Even Jimmy carter admitted that he's never seen this much flak against any sitting POTUS that Trump is facing from the media, and both political parties.


The fact Trump is facing these idiots head-on, hopeful, if for nothing else, to give the American gullible and numb nuts the realities of our current political landscape.


Politicians demonize the 1%er during their campaign, but it is those very same guys that finances their political careers except the liberals and numb nuts gobble up whatever the media feeds them.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on October 30, 2017, 04:42:10 PM
Sure, the Democrats eventually produced the dossier - but you seem to conveniently forget that it was originally conceived and funded by Republicans who didn't want Trump as a candidate in the first place.


You apparently didn't get what was said in the Trump thread about facts on the dossier or ignoring facts that don't appeal to you. The dossier that was distributed was not what a Republican wanted to pay for. Republicans had no intention to fabricate lies and distribute tabloid trash about Trump. The Democrats didn't care about truth, they wanted to win the election by taking away Trump votes so they morphed the dossier into their liking. This is not surprising considering emails disclosed they had planned a smear campaign full of lies against Bernie Sanders should he get close to the Democratic nomination.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: calmissile on October 30, 2017, 04:49:23 PM
I listened to a talk radio show on the way home tonight.  A college Law professor made some interesting comments that I had not heard yet about the indictment.  1. The term 'money laundering' is normally reserved for funds that were acquired illegally.  He implied that the term is now being used as an inflammatory term toward Manaford when there is no evidence in the indictment that suggests that the money was illegally obtained.  2. The typical handling of the failure to register charges is normally to tell the party to register and at most it is a misdemeanor.  3.  If the charges are tax evasion, there should have been an indictment for tax evasion and it is not included in the charges.

Don't know if this professor is a nut case or not.  I am not a lawyer, but it does give some food for thought.  Maybe Boe can react  to his comments.

I doubt anyone on the forum has any sympathy for Manaford (including me) considering he was on the wrong side of the Ukraine political system.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: GQBlues on October 30, 2017, 04:55:05 PM
NO, this is like deasling with a TellyTubby !

I'm not at all certain that certain dossiers are factual... I AM - however certain that the 'gentleman' who forms the title of THIS thread has a lousy track record of 'politicians' he promoted... and dubious funding sources - let alone money laundering...

A pretty poor attempt at dodging reality...


 :rolleyes: 


LMAO! The only bloke doing the dodging is you. I'm sure the fact you're completely IGNORANT of what is actually happening INSIDE our border, and not rely on what media is feeding you on your version of reality, may in fact give you an excuse...but puuullleeezzzee, spare me your ignorance and feed it to someone else.


Moreover, as for the other tidbits I stated, tell me what is the current state of ISIS's stronghold again? And what is the latest Dow/Nasdaq closing compared to what it was November 8, 2016? Let's see who is dodging? LMAO!

Quote
I can only assume this 'republican' stance ( as opposed to monarchist !) is because you seek to 'rile' ? ...


Incoherent. That's what ASSumptions will cause you.  I've no need to be riling you about your reality. The fact is that that useless that hag is  sucking up most of your monies so she can live like a fat cat, and you're resigned to a silly notion it s *ceremonial*. LMAO! That's your money and reality so it's no skin off my nose.

Quote
IF you were paying attention to reality - as appertaining to US/UK relations - you'd know that 'we' haven't obeyed you by having the 'cheek' to leave the EU - as the CIA will need to bug EU leaders phones (again )- rather than relying on Brits spilling..


Face it. Without the US, and all your colonies your monarchs and society were raping and gouging, the UK is utterly irrelevant. A freeloading state no different than those they colonize before. Illustrative of that fact is as soon as Trump said Brexit will be good for yah, your population followed like herded sheep to the polls. LOL.


For the record, as far as BREXIT is concerned, I couldn't give a rat's arse about it. So if you're so tuned that it isn't right for Brits, go to Stuart's board and have it with those other Brits that are constantly ridiculing you about your conviction to this matter.


 :P

Quote
Rory's from my home town and went to the same school - wouldn't want him to 'hurt your feelinz' - with a few home truths ;)


WTF does "Rory's from my home town" earned you? Tiger's from my home town, too...so what's your point? Is you're claim to fame that you went to school with someone who likely don't even know you exist, Moby?  That's pretty pathetic, man. You poor chap! LMAO!.


http://golfweek.com/2017/09/28/rory-mcilroy-tiger-woods-doesnt-have-anything-to-prove-to-anyone/ (http://golfweek.com/2017/09/28/rory-mcilroy-tiger-woods-doesnt-have-anything-to-prove-to-anyone/)
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: JayH on October 30, 2017, 05:03:28 PM
I listened to a talk radio show on the way home tonight.  A college Law professor made some interesting comments that I had not heard yet about the indictment.  1. The term 'money laundering' is normally reserved for funds that were acquired illegally.  He implied that the term is now being used as an inflammatory term toward Manaford when there is no evidence in the indictment that suggests that the money was illegally obtained.  2. The typical handling of the failure to register charges is normally to tell the party to register and at most it is a misdemeanor.  3.  If the charges are tax evasion, there should have been an indictment for tax evasion and it is not included in the charges.

Don't know if this professor is a nut case or not.  I am not a lawyer, but it does give some food for thought.  Maybe Boe can react  to his comments.

I doubt anyone on the forum has any sympathy for Manaford (including me) considering he was on the wrong side of the Ukraine political system.

You need to listen to a different radio station.
Fundamentally -- that "college professor" is wrong . Seeking to use semantics to make ends meet an incorrect conclusion.
Even by  your own knowledge -- you do know these funds were not legally obtained. They are and have been to subject of legal action in Ukraine.
You spend time complaining about media bias -- clearly "your" radio station has trotted out a talking head to support some narrative they want to meet. The Trump media is in high gear to divert discussion and facts at this time .
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on October 30, 2017, 05:07:17 PM
1. The term 'money laundering' is normally reserved for funds that were acquired illegally.  He implied that the term is now being used as an inflammatory term toward Manaford when there is no evidence in the indictment that suggests that the money was illegally obtained.



Count ten against Manafort and Gates was they acted as agents of a foreign principal without registering with the Attorney General that is required by law.


They were working illegally so they were making money illegally.


People are going to speculate what all this means but the twelve indictments were approved not only by Mueller, but by a grand jury consisting of American citizens. If that jury approved it, the next jury will most likely hear the same thing and rule Manafort and Gates guilty of the charges.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: JayH on October 30, 2017, 05:12:01 PM

Count ten against Manafort and Gates was they acted as agents of a foreign principal without registering with the Attorney General that is required by law.


They were working illegally so they were making money illegally.


People are going to speculate what all this means but the twelve indictments were approved not only by Mueller, but by a grand jury consisting of American citizens. If that jury approved it, the next jury will most likely hear the same thing and rule Manafort and Gates guilty of the charges.

Further -- they did attempt to disguise what  by definition was income as loans  ie washing it ! = money laundering
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on October 30, 2017, 05:16:03 PM
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=21092.msg470502#msg470502 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=21092.msg470502#msg470502)

Look at how globally English is spoken.  That predates the US, and is mostly due to the UK colonizing the world.

I personally think Her Majesty works very hard.  I've seen her schedule! 

Trump  had zero to do with Brexit.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on October 30, 2017, 05:22:55 PM
This is how the money laundering is described -


http://theintercept.com/2017/10/30/paul-manafort-money-laundering-scheme-was-identified-months-ago/
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: JayH on October 30, 2017, 07:03:11 PM

Some will find it ironic that Manafort did all of this while coaching candidate Donald Trump to run an “anti-elite” election campaign, one directed at “draining the swamp” and cleaning up Washington. But in fact, this is exactly the kind of tactic that Manafort perfected on behalf of Russia, in Ukraine, where he worked for more than a decade.


Did Russia teach Paul Manafort all its dirty tricks?


All of this experience came in handy in 2016. The exploitation of ethnic tension; the dislike of NATO; the constant talk of opponents’ corruption, whether warranted or not; the shouting about falsified elections — these were Trump tactics, too. Several other things about Yanukovych — who was eventually chased out of his own country — stand as a warning. He was an “anti-elite” candidate who proved far more corrupt than the existing elite. He used his public office for private gain. And he sought to undermine Ukraine’s constitution, first subtly and then openly.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/russia-taught-paul-manafort-all-his-dirty-tricks/2017/10/30/95887e82-bdb7-11e7-959c-fe2b598d8c00_story.html?hpid=hp_no-name_opinion-card-a%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.a929a7789d0f
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on October 30, 2017, 08:42:40 PM

After Manafort got indicted, Podesta resigned from his lobbying firm to prepare for his legal fight alone. He helped Manafort promote Yanukovych but that isn't a crime. This investigation has now spread to the liberals. Hopefully the Clinton Foundation gets looked at.


http://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/30/us/politics/tony-podesta-resignation-lobbying.html
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: fathertime on October 30, 2017, 09:37:40 PM
You need to listen to a different radio station.
Fundamentally -- that "college professor" is wrong . Seeking to use semantics to make ends meet an incorrect conclusion.
Even by  your own knowledge -- you do know these funds were not legally obtained. They are and have been to subject of legal action in Ukraine.
You spend time complaining about media bias -- clearly "your" radio station has trotted out a talking head to support some narrative they want to meet. The Trump media is in high gear to divert discussion and facts at this time .
Talk radio here in Southern California where Calmissile is listening is extremely conservative.  It is almost comedic how one sided the hosts are.  When I was younger and more impressionable I bought their bologna, now when I listen I see it has raw sewage laden with half truths designed to rile up their base.

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: ML on October 31, 2017, 08:21:12 PM
  There must surely be other American Presidents who have also done this in the past.

Only Herbert Hoover.

Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: JayH on November 01, 2017, 04:40:40 PM
  A summary of Manafort in Ukraine


HERE’S WHY UKRAINE PAID MANAFORT INSANE AMOUNTS OF MONEY

“Here’s the guy whose team tried to steal the election, and they failed,” Herbst said. “So then Manafort appeared and presented himself to me, saying he was going to help Yanukovych win the old-fashioned way, by out-organizing the opposition.”


http://news.vice.com/story/heres-why-ukraine-paid-manafort-insane-amounts-of-money

Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: JayH on November 14, 2017, 04:20:26 PM
In other threads I have commented on the current relevance  & links  of events in Ukraine and the US. The very specific issue is Russia -- and it's attempts to interfere and control events in Ukraine and the US. As this article discusses -- Manafort is a centrepiece. In particular --never overlook the fact that at the GOP conference that endorsed Trump as candidate -the Trump campaign's only input to Republican policy was to REMOVE the section of approval of arming Ukraine -- which was in only Russia's interest !
 
The investigation, conducted by US Justice Department special counsel Robert Mueller, has revealed that millions of dollars flowed from the former Ukrainian government to Manafort. The head of that government, Yanukovych, is wanted in Ukraine in connection with over 100 murders during the Euromaidan protests in 2014.

How Manafort Brought The Worst Practices From Ukraine To America

What new things have we found out? What is most significant about the whole story with the Manafort arrest and Mueller investigation?


Robert Mueller has been systematically trying to build a case against that gets to the center about whatever the scandal is about Russian influence, Russian collusion with the Trump campaign in this last election. And so, we see that he has gone for the central figure in the campaign, which was Paul Manafort, who was in charge of the campaign for five extremely important months. The indictment that he filed against Manafort isn't about the election, it's not about the campaign, it's about Manafort's involvement in Ukraine essentially, and about the money he received for his work for the Party of Regions and for other interests in Ukraine, and the way in which it was illegally laundered into the United States. And so, he's attacked Manafort. He's shown that Manafort himself is extremely vulnerable to prosecution, and the question is: where does this lead? How is he able to use this information, to use this devastating indictment of Manafort, in order to get more information that gets us closer to the center of the narrative of the election.

http://en.hromadske.ua/posts/why-the-manafort-case-is-more-about-ukraine-than-trump
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: JayH on November 24, 2017, 01:13:15 AM
This is only the known trips


Manafort took 18 trips to Moscow during work in Ukraine:


The longtime Republican operative has said that his work was about moving Ukraine closer to Europe, but flight records reported by McClatchy Thursday show that he visited the Russian capital regularly from 2005 to 2011. Read also Paul Manafort offers $12 mln in assets to avoid house arrest - CBS News His spokesman Jason Maloni told the news service that the trips, most of which were made in the first two years of that period, were for work with Russian oligarch Oleg Deripaska and denied any collusion with Russia to swing the 2016 election toward Trump.

l

Read more on UNIAN: http://www.unian.info/world/2260431-manafort-took-18-trips-to-moscow-during-work-in-ukraine-report.html
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on January 30, 2018, 10:08:51 AM
The Atlantic has a piece on Manafort's downfall.  The journalist, Franklin Foer, was recently interviewed by NPR.  From NPR:
Quote

in Ukraine, he'd helped exacerbate a division between Russian speakers in the eastern part of the country and Ukrainian speakers in the western part of the country. And he'd played on this long-standing sense of victimization that the Russian speakers felt. And he just went where the polls showed him to go, which was to try to find ways to drive a wedge between those two different groups.

Links to the NPR interview and The Atlantic pieces -

http://www.npr.org/2018/01/29/581478324/paul-manafort-joined-the-trump-campaign-in-a-state-of-despair-and-desperation

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/paul-manafort-american-hustler/550925/
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on January 30, 2018, 10:59:46 AM
Franklin Foer (/ˈfɔːr/; born July 20, 1974) is a staff writer at The Atlantic and former editor of The New Republic, commentating on contemporary issues from a liberal perspective.[1][2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_Foer

Brass
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on January 30, 2018, 11:02:58 AM
Read his piece. 

Paul Manafort deliberately fomented discord in Ukraine, which ultimately lead to war.  He did so for his personal gain rather than any noble reason.  You must really despise Ukrainians to defend someone who was instrumental in attempting to dismantle Ukrainians' democratic rights.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on January 30, 2018, 12:22:54 PM
Read his piece. 

Paul Manafort deliberately fomented discord in Ukraine, which ultimately lead to war.  He did so for his personal gain rather than any noble reason.  You must really despise Ukrainians to defend someone who was instrumental in attempting to dismantle Ukrainians' democratic rights.

The article is rehashed malicious fiction written to titillate the uninformed.

Foer's intent is not to communicate fact or the truth but supply 'comfort food' for liberal consumption. Enjoy.

Brass 
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on January 30, 2018, 12:29:41 PM
A lot of what is written about Ukraine has been confirmed via hacking by Ukrainians and in documents Yanukovych, in his haste to flee, left behind.  The documents were found by independent journalists, not politicians with an axe to grind, and are probably still online somewhere.  So no, it is not a "political hit job" as far as Ukraine is concerned.

Manafort devised a campaign that created grievances that did not exist, leading, ultimately, to the deaths of 10,000 Ukrainians. 

You are defending a man who advanced the interest of Mobutu and worse, Savimbi, whose army was known to take sex slaves and kill children, and one who used stolen Ukrainian blood money to fund his mistress' $40,000 a month lifestyle.

So go ahead and defend this prince of a human being.  After all, you're not interested in truth, so why bother commenting otherwise?
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on January 30, 2018, 01:04:20 PM
A lot of what is written about Ukraine has been confirmed via hacking by Ukrainians and in documents Yanukovych, in his haste to flee, left behind.  The documents were found by independent journalists, not politicians with an axe to grind, and are probably still online somewhere.  So no, it is not a "political hit job" as far as Ukraine is concerned.

Manafort devised a campaign that created grievances that did not exist, leading to the deaths of 10,000 Ukrainians. 

You are defending a man who advanced the interest of Mobutu, whose army was known to take sex slaves, and one who used Ukrainian blood money to fund his mistress' $40,000 a month lifestyle.

But you're not interested in truth, so why bother commenting?

...Anyone who's read this topic might well be asking you the same question.

This is just your latest sadly misinformed attempt at smearing Manafort.  At the end of the day it's no more fact based, accurate or successful than your previous efforts over the last nine pages.

All that's happened here is you came across another rehashed liberal slanted attack article confirming your own bias and got excited about it. Do try and contain yourself.

Brass

Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on January 30, 2018, 01:22:12 PM
Did Manafort represent Savimbi?

Did Manafort devise a campaign that inflamed ethnic divisions that previously were almost zero in Ukraine?

Did Manafort take millions that had been stolen from the Ukrainian populace?

Did Manafort have a mistress with a Manhattan apartment, house in the Hamptons, and unlimited AmEx?

The answer to all of the above is yes. So is the fact you defend this lowlife. 
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on January 30, 2018, 01:45:15 PM
I have no intention of further indulging your frenzied Manafort obsession. The link I posted is explanation enough.

Anyone who cares to can peruse these last nine page and judge the validity or fallaciousness of your aspersions for themselves.

Brass





Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on January 30, 2018, 01:51:28 PM
So in other words, you cannot defend his work for child murderers, rapists, his complicity in raiding the Ukrainian treasury, his work in fomenting ethnic divisions leading to war in Ukraine, or screwing around on his wife with a woman half his age, all independently verified, because you don’t like the reporter in but one report. Great values you exhibit.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Brasscasing on January 30, 2018, 02:01:33 PM
So in other words, you cannot defend his work for child murderers, rapists, his complicity in raiding the Ukrainian treasury, his work in fomenting ethnic divisions leading to war in Ukraine, or screwing around on his wife with a woman half his age, all independently verified, because you don’t like the reporter in but one report. Great values you exhibit.

...Already thoroughly debunked over the last nine pages. Anyone can read it for themselves.

Brass
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on January 30, 2018, 02:05:57 PM
You have debunked zero.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: JayH on January 30, 2018, 11:06:03 PM
Where  is my post -it was here earlier  ?

Brass -- you have on numerous occasions removed my posts -- complying posts that you decided --YOU DECIDED to kill.
As a moderator      and a participant in a thread --it is not appropriate  that you then delete a legitimate post because it was ridiculing your posts  -- I might add -- it highlighted the belligerence in your posts.

On a previous occasion ( more than one actually) your undisciplined behaviour as a mod led to your permanent removal from moderating and the target then was the same as today  --where once again--you acted because it unpicked you in the simplest way !

Once again --it it now time for you to relinquish and modding role whatsoever.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on January 30, 2018, 11:38:15 PM
In reading this page, Jay, I don’t think Manafort exploited ethnic tension, as you stated above.  I think he created it. Think back to 2006. There was virtually no ethnic tension in Ukraine.

Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Anotherkiwi on January 31, 2018, 02:26:18 AM
I have no intention of further indulging your frenzied Manafort obsession. The link I posted is explanation enough.

What link are you talking about?  If you mean the one to the Wikipedia page of Franklin Foer, it doesn't mean or explain anything.  If you want people to give credence to your views, you need to do a lot more than post a link to something without any explanation.

Anyone who cares to can peruse these last nine page and judge the validity or fallaciousness of your aspersions for themselves.

Which the rational members here have done.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Anotherkiwi on January 31, 2018, 02:33:18 AM
...On a previous occasion ( more than one actually) your undisciplined behaviour as a mod led to your permanent removal from moderating and the target then was the same as today  --where once again--you acted because it unpicked you in the simplest way !

"Permanent" would appear to mean something different in North America from what it does in my part of the world.

Once again --it it now time for you to relinquish and modding role whatsoever.

If the first part of your post...

Where  is my post -it was here earlier  ?

Brass -- you have on numerous occasions removed my posts -- complying posts that you decided --YOU DECIDED to kill.
As a moderator      and a participant in a thread --it is not appropriate  that you then delete a legitimate post because it was ridiculing your posts  -- I might add -- it highlighted the belligerence in your posts.

...is correct, then yes, I agree.  Not that I had any posts deleted, but I raised the same point about participation and comments in a thread not long after I first started posting.  To Dan's credit, he immediately jumped on the person concerned, and I didn't have any more trouble while they were a moderator.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: msmob on February 09, 2018, 04:53:14 AM
Well, well...the guy who VVP will not speak of has posted what he claims to be evidence that Manafort DID meet with high ranking Kremlin officials...

http://themoscowtimes.com/news/navalny-claims-proof-kremlins-ties-to-trump-campaign-aide-paul-manafort-60442 (http://themoscowtimes.com/news/navalny-claims-proof-kremlins-ties-to-trump-campaign-aide-paul-manafort-60442)

Link to video within the article
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on February 09, 2018, 09:39:46 AM
Well, well...the guy who VVP will not speak of has posted what he claims to be evidence that Manafort DID meet with high ranking Kremlin officials...

http://themoscowtimes.com/news/navalny-claims-proof-kremlins-ties-to-trump-campaign-aide-paul-manafort-60442 (http://themoscowtimes.com/news/navalny-claims-proof-kremlins-ties-to-trump-campaign-aide-paul-manafort-60442)

Link to video within the article


You know why those in the article and who written the article doesn't have to worry about getting shot, poisoned, or thrown out a window? It's because Putin is accepting articles like this to create a divide in American politics by giving Liberals more ammo to fight everything Trump, making both parties hate each other even more, and making our government ineffective. How about letting Mueller finish his investigation?
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: msmob on February 09, 2018, 09:51:04 AM

You know why those in the article and who written the article doesn't have to worry about getting shot, poisoned, or thrown out a window? It's because Putin is accepting articles like this to create a divide in American politics by giving Liberals more ammo to fight everything Trump, making both parties hate each other even more, and making our government ineffective. How about letting Mueller finish his investigation?

BillbyB - once again proves just how 'knowledgeable' he is on things Russia )))

Do you think Navalny gives a ..... about dissing 'Trampu' ?   This is VERY much for local consumption  - or he would have posted the vid in ENGLISH - which he speaks



Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on February 10, 2018, 10:14:44 AM
Do you think Navalny gives a ..... about dissing 'Trampu' ?   This is VERY much for local consumption  - or he would have posted the vid in ENGLISH - which he speaks


If Navalny has anything of value, Mueller would be talking to him. Can we wait till the investigation is over?


My last post had nothing to do with Navalny. State controlled media allows articles like that to show people they don't control media, political opponents aren't silence, there's free speech in Russia and an article like that further divides America. Allowing an article like that has a lot of benefits to Putin.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: tfcrew on February 10, 2018, 11:42:48 AM

Count ten against Manafort and Gates was they acted as agents of a foreign principal without registering with the Attorney General that is required by law.

Gee, that seems sort of like..

Quote
Obama admin. sent taxpayer money to campaign to oust Netanyahu

The State Department (http://www.washingtontimes.com/topics/department-of-state/) paid hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxpayers grants to an Israeli group that used the money to build a campaign to oust Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu (http://www.washingtontimes.com/topics/benjamin-netanyahu/) in last year’s Israeli parliamentary elections, a congressional investigation concluded Tuesday.
Some $350,000 was sent to OneVoice, ostensibly to support the group’s efforts to back Israeli-Palestinian peace settlement negotiations. But OneVoice used the money to build a voter database, train activists and hire a political consulting firm with ties to President Obama’s campaign — all of which set the stage for an anti-Netanyahu (http://www.washingtontimes.com/topics/benjamin-netanyahu/) campaign, the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations (http://www.washingtontimes.com/topics/senate-permanent-subcommittee-on-investigations/) said in a bipartisan staff report.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jul/12/obama-admin-sent-taxpayer-money-oust-netanyahu/

That was US taxpayers money. Whatever happened to that investigation?

I remember posting this question years ago and no one answered me [blubber-tears]
 
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: msmob on February 10, 2018, 05:25:32 PM

If Navalny has anything of value, Mueller would be talking to him. Can we wait till the investigation is over?

Once again, I have to wonder at your English comprehension...   I'm pretty certain Navalny's play is to point out corruption within his country - the cooperation between 'bizness and politics'.. 

My last post had nothing to do with Navalny. State controlled media allows articles like that to show people they don't control media, political opponents aren't silence, there's free speech in Russia and an article like that further divides America. Allowing an article like that has a lot of benefits to Putin.

BillyB, either you posted this under the influence or you really ARE that daft...

'free speech' ?   The biggest news outlets and most popular social media outlets are OWNED by the state or companies maj owned by the state or Oligarchs who benefit from the 'symbiosis' ....   

You can't have viewed Navalany's vid ... your 'riposte' proves that...

The article was posted on youtube....  it's not banned in Russia....  anyone can post there....  the only 'benefit' one could perceive for VVP would be, "look, we don't completely control the internet"
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on February 10, 2018, 05:45:28 PM
'free speech' ?   The biggest news outlets and most popular social media outlets are OWNED by the state or companies maj owned by the state or Oligarchs who benefit from the 'symbiosis' ....   

Are you so blind with hate of me you can't comprehend what I'm writing or do you give everybody you have a conversation with a difficult time? Get your head examined. I just said State controlled media allows certain articles that give readers the impression there's freedom in Russia. They are in control.


The article was posted on youtube....  it's not banned in Russia....  anyone can post there....  the only 'benefit' one could perceive for VVP would be, "look, we don't completely control the internet"
[


Enough has been said. Russia is cracking down on further commentary.


http://www.foxnews.com/world/2018/02/10/russia-moves-to-block-navalnys-latest-investigation.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%253A+foxnews%252Fworld+(Internal+-+World+Latest+-+Text)[/size]
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: msmob on February 11, 2018, 12:20:25 AM

Are you so blind with hate of me you can't comprehend what I'm writing or do you give everybody you have a conversation with a difficult time? Get your head examined. I just said State controlled media allows certain articles that give readers the impression there's freedom in Russia. They are in control.

 :ROFL:

1/ I don't 'hate' anyone on here - I'm trying to help you from yourself - one can't 'hate' someone for posting daft - just feel sorry for them. Be kind to them ;) Sorry, if I hurt your feelings..

2/ As Navalny posted the article re the Kremlin/ Oligarch / Manafort connection  on YOUTube ( American outlet )...

3/ The Moscow Times has endured plenty of crap  for posting stuff the Kremin doesn't like and was dismissed as a 'foreign owed / controlled propaganda outlet' ..Under Russian law it's ownership make-up was forced to change - as foreign ownership is now limited to 20 percent and it no longer publishes in  print and most of the staff left..So 'thanks' - but your latest attempt at deflection - just another fail

http://meduza.io/en/news/2017/10/11/the-moscow-times-new-majority-owner-is-a-russian-catering-company-executive (http://meduza.io/en/news/2017/10/11/the-moscow-times-new-majority-owner-is-a-russian-catering-company-executive)

This is what happens to outlets that challenge the 'establishment' ... Censorship is forbidden by the Russian constitution - but the media regulator and legislation doesn't seem to reflect the constitution ...

Derek Sauer (it's Dutch founder ) loves Russia and his t'other half edited Cosmo - you should read up on them .. you might understand why I'm mocking your 'knowledge'..

Below - we have BillyB - adopting a technique of mine .. responding in 2pt text (again) ..Didn't you know imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, BillyB ? Is that your intention?




Enough has been said. Russia is cracking down on further commentary.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2018/02/10/russia-moves-to-block-navalnys-latest-investigation.html?

Ri-ight ...so youtube might get banned in Russia - for 'non compliance'.. That happened to Linkedin - so folks use a VPN ..

Ukraine blocked RU social media ... So, Russians set up VPNs for them ..

The Kremlin introduced legislation on VPNs in Nov 17 - making the use of a VPN to view terrorist material - illegal

So, what  will RUptly do - if the whole of Youtube was banned in Russia? ;)

In the meantime - it is amusing that certain folks both sides of the pond seem to want to sink embarrassing revelations of links between 'Trampu' and the Kremlin .. yet foolishly moved onto the area of press freedom as a deflection.

How CAN I 'hate' you BillyB?  Your posts are like a cry for help and I'm pleased to be there for you...

 
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: JayH on February 24, 2018, 05:13:32 PM
Given that Manafort has now been indicted and specific details of the corruption are available --it makes the comments of some posters earlier in this thread look as ridiculous as they were then !
In the haste to rationalise anything Trump -- some of the comments are amongst the dumbest ever made on this forum. Funnily enough ( as it the not funny) the same people are still making the same kind of dumb rationalising of the Trump world today.




 Manafort secretly paid top European politicians to lobby for Yanukovych


In November, the Kyiv Post wrote about the European Center for Modern Ukraine that has become a part of the indictment’s allegations of Manafort and Gates being unregistered foreign agents in the U.S.

Manafort and Gates were operating on behalf of the center that was based in Brussels.

The center’s founder, former Ukraine’s Foreign Minister Leonid Kozhara, declined to comment but told 112 TV channel on Nov. 1 that the center was created “to tell the truth about Ukraine in the European Parliament and other E.U. institutions. And the center was quite successful.”

One of the center’s apparent functions was to pay U.S. journalists and bloggers for favorable coverage.

A 2013 Buzzfeed investigation revealed that the center paid U.S. bloggers at the U.S. far-right website Breitbart News Network, among other outlets, for positive coverage of the ruling Party of Regions during the 2012 parliamentary elections

http://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/mueller-manafort-secretly-paid-top-european-politicians-lobby-yanukovych.html
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: fathertime on February 24, 2018, 10:34:33 PM
Given that Manafort has now been indicted and specific details of the corruption are available --it makes the comments of some posters earlier in this thread look as ridiculous as they were then !
In the haste to rationalise anything Trump -- some of the comments are amongst the dumbest ever made on this forum. Funnily enough ( as it the not funny) the same people are still making the same kind of dumb rationalising of the Trump world today.


It is amazing that the Trump supporters would try to sweep Trump's choice of Manafort under the rug.  It doesn't seem like a coincidence that of ALL THE PEOPLE trump could have chosen, he chose Manafort to run his campaign.  Despite the cries from the Trump rationalizers, the investigation is an important check on this particular presidency. 

Fathertime!
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on March 28, 2018, 07:26:50 AM
Manafort’s Kyiv based employee had ties to Russian intelligence-

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/manafort-associate-had-russian-intelligence-ties-during-2016-campaign-prosecutors-say/2018/03/28/473228e8-3231-11e8-8bdd-cdb33a5eef83_story.html?utm_term=.8872c0a8f9aa
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: tfcrew on April 10, 2018, 01:01:44 PM
What about this guy?........

Mueller Investigating Ukrainian’s $150,000 Payment for a Trump Appearance
Quote
By MICHAEL S. SCHMIDT and MAGGIE HABERMANAPRIL 9, 2018


WASHINGTON — The special counsel is investigating a payment made to President Trump’s foundation by a Ukrainian steel magnate for a talk during the campaign, according to three people briefed on the matter, as part of a broader examination of streams of foreign money to Mr. Trump and his associates in the years leading up to the election.
Investigators subpoenaed  (http://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/15/us/politics/trump-organization-subpoena-mueller-russia.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news)the Trump Organization (http://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/15/us/politics/trump-organization-subpoena-mueller-russia.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news) this year for an array of records about business with foreign nationals. In response, the company handed over documents about a $150,000 donation that the Ukrainian billionaire, Victor Pinchuk, made in September 2015 to the Donald J. Trump Foundation in exchange for a 20-minute appearance (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S60nubH47Ac) by Mr. Trump that month through a video link to a conference in Kiev.
Michael D. Cohen, the president’s personal lawyer whose office and hotel room were raided on Monday (http://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/09/us/politics/fbi-raids-office-of-trumps-longtime-lawyer-michael-cohen.html) in an apparently unrelated case, solicited the donation. The contribution from Mr. Pinchuk, who has sought closer ties for Ukraine to the West, was the largest the foundation received in 2015 from anyone besides Mr. Trump himself.
more.......
http://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/09/us/politics/
trump-mueller-ukraine-victor-pinchuk.html?mabReward=ART_ACTM1&recid=
131nk7FtfwGfrjepN9da8qpWPe4&recp=3&moduleDetail=recommendations-2&action=click&contentCollection=Middle%20East&region=
Footer&module=WhatsNext&version=WhatsNext&contentID=
WhatsNext&src=recg&pgtype=article

$150K for a video chat? How flaky! At least the Clintons appeared [Russia] in person.
 
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: krimster2 on April 10, 2018, 03:28:27 PM
hillary's emails
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on April 10, 2018, 03:38:59 PM
Mueller Investigating Ukrainian’s $150,000 Payment for a Trump Appearancemore.......



Trump must not think much of himself. Bill Clinton was getting $500,000 for a few hours appearance in Russia.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on July 21, 2018, 09:37:49 AM
Not related to his destruction of Ukraine, but the latest (salacious) take on Manafort's character, or lack thereof -

http://tinyurl.com/y787ydxf (http://tinyurl.com/y787ydxf)
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BdHvA on July 21, 2018, 09:52:48 AM
While I am not a fame of P. Manafort presently he is in jail in solitary confinement. Supposedly for witness tampering, another unproven accusation of R. Mueller.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on July 21, 2018, 06:34:29 PM
While I am not a fame of P. Manafort presently he is in jail in solitary confinement. Supposedly for witness tampering, another unproven accusation of R. Mueller.

He made a call to a witness that lasted less than 2 minutes. Hardly enough time to really tamper with a witness but a judge felt he violated the conditions of his release.

http://www.lawfareblog.com/manafort-tampering-allegations
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BdHvA on July 21, 2018, 06:55:34 PM
While I am not a fame of P. Manafort presently he is in jail in solitary confinement. Supposedly for witness tampering, another unproven accusation of R. Mueller.

He made a call to a witness that lasted less than 2 minutes. Hardly enough time to really tamper with a witness but a judge felt he violated the conditions of his release.

http://www.lawfareblog.com/manafort-tampering-allegations

BillyB, Thank you for posting the link, interesting read.

Sort of confirms my sense that Mueller would like to have a pliable possible witness/informant.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: msmob on July 21, 2018, 09:25:34 PM
Sorry, but what part of his pre-trial conditions do some folks fail to comprehend ?

Do not attempt to contact a witness - don't contact a witness - simples
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BdHvA on November 27, 2018, 10:13:57 AM
Moby,

The plea agreement is being withdrawn because Manafort had no knowledge of collusion between Russia and the Trump team.

Guess what R. Mueller thought he had a pliable witness. Instead he still has nothing.

Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: JayH on November 27, 2018, 12:10:28 PM
Moby,

The plea agreement is being withdrawn because Manafort had no knowledge of collusion between Russia and the Trump team.

Guess what R. Mueller thought he had a pliable witness. Instead he still has nothing.


Ya wanna bet?  Nothing ? mmmmm
That statement is as dumb as anything moby has posted ::)

Only full on 100% idiot Trumpateers could believe there was not a connection that equals collusion -- which Trump and his tourets syndrome tells us that the exact opposite of what Trump keeps saying is the actual  truth.
The denials of a connection are in the ridiculous category -- what is less certain is the extent of the collaboration .
What is 100% accurate to say ois--the Trump campaign was involved in collusion fwiw !!


Manafort held secret talks with Assange in Ecuadorian embassy,


Donald Trump’s former campaign manager Paul Manafort held secret talks with Julian Assange inside the Ecuadorian embassy in London, and visited around the time he joined Trump’s campaign, the Guardian has been told.

Sources have said Manafort went to see Assange in 2013, 2015 and in spring 2016 – during the period when he was made a key figure in Trump’s push for the White House.

It is unclear why Manafort would have wanted to see Assange and what was discussed. But the last apparent meeting is likely to come under scrutiny and could interest Robert Mueller, the special prosecutor who is investigating alleged collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia.

A well-placed source has told the Guardian that Manafort went to see Assange around March 2016. Months later WikiLeaks released a stash of Democratic emails stolen by Russian intelligence officers.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/27/manafort-held-secret-talks-with-assange-in-ecuadorian-embassy
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BdHvA on November 27, 2018, 02:02:36 PM
It is clear both P. Manafort and R. Mueller were on the same side holding hands with V. Yanukovych prior to 2014.

The majority of leaks and announcements from Mueller have been regarding small fry with tax issues. Mueller is a publicity whore and so far he has no proof except his asshole.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: JayH on November 27, 2018, 02:05:39 PM
It is clear both P. Manafort and R. Mueller were on the same side holding hands with V. Yanukovych prior to 2014.

The majority of leaks and announcements from Mueller have been regarding small fry with tax issues. Mueller is a publicity whore and so far he has no proof except his asshole.


Some  nut case fromrua has hacked Av's account !  Not kidding
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BdHvA on November 27, 2018, 02:16:25 PM
Some  nut case fromrua has hacked Av's account !  Not kidding

Typical Jay, He can not face the reality so he only has insults. Sad in fact
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: tfcrew on November 27, 2018, 08:19:50 PM

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/27/manafort-held-secret-talks-with-assange-in-ecuadorian-embassy (http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/27/manafort-held-secret-talks-with-assange-in-ecuadorian-embassy)
I noticed today on TV that the Guardian has amended that line to ..'manafort-held-secret-talks-with-assange-in-ecuadorian-embassy-sources-say' (http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/27/manafort-held-secret-talks-with-assange-in-ecuadorian-embassy)
I guess better late than never.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: JayH on November 27, 2018, 09:03:01 PM
I noticed today on TV that the Guardian has amended that line to ..'manafort-held-secret-talks-with-assange-in-ecuadorian-embassy-sources-say' (http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/27/manafort-held-secret-talks-with-assange-in-ecuadorian-embassy)
I guess better late than never.

Assange denies it all -- branded it is "fake" news  .We shall see in due course.

So--if it proves to be true--what conclusions do you draw from it?
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on November 03, 2019, 01:25:12 PM
Manafort attempted to divert the issue of Russian hacking, blaming Ukraine.  Once again, Manafort was beholden to the Russians, to the (potential) detriment of Ukraine -

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/mueller-documents-reveal-manafort-pushed-the-theory-ukraine-hacked-dnc-email-server (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/mueller-documents-reveal-manafort-pushed-the-theory-ukraine-hacked-dnc-email-server)


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on November 03, 2019, 04:40:26 PM

I believe Russia hacked the DNC. They hack everything American. We're there more hostile actors hacking into the DNC server like they did Hillary's private email server? Probably. We know Russia, China, Germany, and one of the Korea's been hacking into Hillary's email server.

The DNC didn't want our intelligence agencies to look in their server so they hired Crowdstrike. Crowdstrike confirmed Russia was in the DNCs server so our intelligence agencies blamed Russia based off Crowdstike's conclusion. What if there were more hostile actors in the DNC's server but Crowdstrike was told by their customer, the DNC, not to tell us since Russia fits their narrative of what's going on? Trump wants to find out. Our intelligence agencies should know which countries are hacking us so we can take preventive measures but the Democrats trust Crowdstrike for security over our intelligence agencies.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: krimster2 on November 03, 2019, 07:34:54 PM
the Ukrainian subplot introduced by Trump and the one fabricated by Manafort, are the SAME story!!!
the latest unredacted mueller notes... show some interesting details to say the least!!!!

if democrats get access to Trumps's secret phone server and get the calls from Russia, Turkey and Saudi Arabia
then Trump will quit!!!!

remember all this was triggered over 5 min of a phone call to Ukraine....
imagine the RUSSIAN ones...
and fortunately, I don't have to...
BTW, the PeePee tapes are REAL!!!
Putin has shown an enhanced video of it to everyone in the inner circle!!!
and Trump knows he has it and lives in terror of it being released....
AND
one day Putin IS going to release it!!!!
but AFTER Trump is out of office!!!!!
can you imagine watching dumb phuque Trump voters watch the Trump PeePee tape!!!
PRICELESS!!!
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: krimster2 on November 12, 2019, 08:25:40 AM
here’s a pic courtesy of the Belbeck Shock Battalion outta Sevastopol...
eto moy bratyev! slovo!

this pic is of local Ukrainian soldiers in Zaporizhia...
moy bratyev ran the operation that got all the facial pics of local Ukrainian soldiers and ran their pics through social media using our facial recognition system...
we ended up with a 30% ID rate!!!
these names were all put into a list and sent to another unit on the same ulitsa as us, and that’s the last I ever heard about it!!!!

BUT...
it tells me SOMETHING oichen bolshoi is gonna happen in Zaporizhia...

and meanwhile Ukraine has pulled its military forces back from Eastern Ukraine, and has cleared its land mines!!!!

AND...
by the end of next year, Russia is going to reduce the gas supply to Ukraine by between 75 to 90%!!!!!

within a year this will lead to a major economic depression for Ukraine...

so by two years from now there will be VERY negative forces building in Ukraine...
economically, politically, and socially...
just waiting for a spark to set everything ablaze
like the day children playing with matches burned down half of Kyiv....
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on November 12, 2019, 09:16:18 AM
and meanwhile Ukraine has pulled its military forces back from Eastern Ukraine, and has cleared its land mines!!!!


Ukraine isn't getting enough help from Western nations to claim ALL their nation back so the new president has to make a deal. Give Eastern Ukraine more autonomy and in return, Russia will back off. Ukraine may begin to live in peace and the economy flourish and Russia's economy will improve after sanctions are dropped on them. Like Crimea, with more autonomy Eastern Ukraine may vote themselves into Russia someday. Russia will drop it's war in exchange for Eastern Ukraine. Cartographers are going to get busy again.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: ML on November 12, 2019, 09:23:49 AM
Ukraine isn't getting enough help from Western nations to claim ALL their nation back so the new president has to make a deal. Give Eastern Ukraine more autonomy and in return, Russia will back off. Ukraine may begin to live in peace and the economy flourish and Russia's economy will improve after sanctions are dropped on them. Like Crimea, with more autonomy Eastern Ukraine may vote themselves into Russia someday. Russia will drop it's war in exchange for Eastern Ukraine. Cartographers are going to get busy again.

Billy, so in exchange for Crimea . . . Russia did what ??
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on November 12, 2019, 09:44:23 AM
Billy, so in exchange for Crimea . . . Russia did what ??


Russia claims they didn't do anything and Crimea just voted themselves over to Russia. It's unfortunate but if a nation can't get enough support in this world to get their property back, they have to negotiate with the bully for self preservation.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: ML on November 12, 2019, 10:09:51 AM
Billy, you said:  "Russia will drop it's war in exchange for Eastern Ukraine."

Thus, you are indicating Russia will be a good boy if they get something.

So, I am asking you:  What did Russia do after they got Crimea?

What does appeasing a bully accomplish ?
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on November 12, 2019, 11:40:00 AM
What does continuing to send Ukrainian men to the region, with limited and inferior equipment, do to stop  Russia?  The West should continue their sanctions, even expand them.  Of course, the Europeans don't want that, they need Russian oil and gas, and want to expand trade with Russia.  Ditto Donald Trump.


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: krimster2 on November 12, 2019, 12:02:20 PM
EVERYONE is selling out to Russia BO, EVEN ME!!!!
give it a few more years, and EVEN YOU you will see the logic of it all and JOIN US!!! horrosho! tak!
zaftra in Odessa!
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on November 12, 2019, 12:04:42 PM
That will never happen with me.  I am not ever going to support former commie pigs, be they Russian or Ukrainian, who have now shown their true faces..

This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on November 12, 2019, 05:13:54 PM
So, I am asking you:  What did Russia do after they got Crimea?


They supported pro Russian rebels to destabilize Ukraine.

What does appeasing a bully accomplish ?


At this moment, it's about self preservation. Poroshenko went around the world looking for a nation to supply him lethal weapons and get support, any support. He couldn't get enough support. In Trump's call to the new Ukrainian president he mentioned European nations weren't doing enough for Ukraine. Trump was right. Trump gave lethal weapons to Ukraine but it's still not enough to make the bully go away. Things weren't getting better for Ukraine but it could get worse. So, the new Ukrainian president is negotiating with the bully. Pulling troops back is a first step to negotiations. I predict the Ukraine losing real estate in the future and Putin gaining real estate without shedding too much Russian blood.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: krimster2 on November 12, 2019, 05:29:48 PM
awww BO, c'mon, can't we still be friends?
you can't stop what's going to happen to Ukraine...
the best outcome with the fewest causalities would be to get the war over with as COMPLETELY and as QUICKLY as possible
rather than a pro-longed stalemate in Donetsk....

there are now NO Ukrainian military forces surrounding Donbas
mine fields are being cleared....
SOON...
Russian forces will be building....

when they launch their attack they will be half way to Kyiv and Odessa in 24 hours
I've SEEN the actual training material for the maneuvers!!!!
slam!
bam!
spossiba m'am!

Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Boethius on November 12, 2019, 05:46:10 PM
Nope.  I rejected those pigs 30 years ago, and I reject them, and their equally heinous offspring, today. 


This post was composed without the aid of google.




Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on November 12, 2019, 05:58:08 PM
when they launch their attack they will be half way to Kyiv and Odessa in 24 hours
I've SEEN the actual training material for the maneuvers!!!!
slam!
bam!
spossiba m'am!

It would be bad for Putin to slaughter his Slavic brothers and sisters. That is why he denies Russia is involved in Ukraine. Putin does admit a few Russian troops, missiles and tanks have followed their hearts to help the rebels in Ukraine. Trump gave Ukraine enough lethal weapons to make it hurt real bad for Russian troops should Putin order a full invasion. Putin will also have to deal with constant rebels that are constantly supplied with weapons from Western partners. It will be a conflict that will drag on for Putin and enough Russian blood spilled that will hurt his legacy. I don't think he's going for all Ukraine. He just wants the parts he knows rebels won't rise up and kill Russian troops.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: msmob on November 13, 2019, 12:37:24 AM
BillyB, do you ever read what you write and wonder at your utter STUPIDITY?

Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: Gator on November 13, 2019, 08:12:51 AM

....by the end of next year, Russia is going to reduce the gas supply to Ukraine by between 75 to 90%!!!!!



No problem.  Hunter Biden and Burisma will have a solution.   
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on November 13, 2019, 09:30:07 AM
BillyB, do you ever read what you write and wonder at your utter STUPIDITY?

 You predicted all hell would break loose after Trump made his recent move in Syria. You were wrong.  you have a history of being wrong
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: msmob on November 14, 2019, 02:43:58 AM
BillyB, all hell DID break out...

Many died and Daesh prisoners escaped.

Yet another demonstration of your 'awareness'..

Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on November 14, 2019, 08:48:08 AM
BillyB, all hell DID break out...


Trump left the Kurds forcing the Kurds to come to the negotiating table. There is a truce now with the Kurds and Turkey and Kurds and Syria and Russia. Fighting has stopped Kurds also worried America was going to leave and they would lose their oil fields finally pointed out where the ISIS leader was hiding. Trump made a move that initially scared people, yes but the move ended up a win for everybody.

Zelensky is pulling troops out of Eastern Ukraine so he can negotiate with Russia so Russia put a leash on the Rebels which will end the conflict. If you don't agree, then explain what you think is happening.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: msmob on November 14, 2019, 10:11:35 AM
Trump left the Kurds forcing the Kurds to come to the negotiating table. There is a truce now with the Kurds and Turkey and Kurds and Syria and Russia. Fighting has stopped Kurds also worried America was going to leave and they would lose their oil fields finally pointed out where the ISIS leader was hiding. Trump made a move that initially scared people, yes but the move ended up a win for everybody.

You truly are a stubborn dick-head ...  World War II ended up with an agreement - as do most wars - but it is usually the foreign policy stupidity of at least one leader that kicks them off ...   Thousands died - including kids at school .. If this is BillyB's definition of 'success' - there is n o hope for you..

Zelensky is pulling troops out of Eastern Ukraine so he can negotiate with Russia so Russia put a leash on the Rebels which will end the conflict. If you don't agree, then explain what you think is happening.

Minsk II ?

I see how you are 'up' on such things..
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on November 14, 2019, 10:38:55 AM
Minsk II ?


Minsk II didn't have Ukraine pull back their troops and offer autonomy to the Eastern regions of Ukraine. Zelensky is offering more to Russia in hopes Ukraine will have lasting peace. What is being offered isn't Minsk II so no comparison.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: msmob on November 14, 2019, 12:50:00 PM
Minsk II didn't have Ukraine pull back their troops and offer autonomy to the Eastern regions of Ukraine. Zelensky is offering more to Russia in hopes Ukraine will have lasting peace. What is being offered isn't Minsk II so no comparison.

As ever, I note BillyB realised he was fighting a losing battle on Levant front - so he's switched to Ukraine ... and failing, too

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_Protocol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_Protocol)

What part of

"Decentralisation of power"

"bilateral ceasefire"

confuses you ?

Whether you trust President Z ( or not ) he has taken brave steps to end the fighting and embarrass the occupiers

Now less of the obfuscation and back to the WELL DODGY Mr Manafort and the company he kept ... OH.. wait a Mo .. 'Trampu'... How inconvenient.

So, is 'Trampu' a bad choice of character - or do birds of a feather stick together  ? 

Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on November 14, 2019, 04:42:21 PM
Whether you trust President Z ( or not ) he has taken brave steps to end the fighting and embarrass the occupiers


So after Russia gets embarrassed, they will stop fighting? Exactly how did the new Ukrainian president embarrass Russia?
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: msmob on November 15, 2019, 02:30:06 AM
Billy

If you want to open a thread to discuss the issues in E.Ukraine, please do so.

This thread is about a specific person who has aided corrupt folk to power in return for money.

You are doing your usual deflection tactics when you cannot deal with the issue .



Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: BillyB on November 15, 2019, 10:08:21 AM
You are doing your usual deflection tactics when you cannot deal with the issue .

If you can't answer my question, just say "I don't know" instead of deflect.

Billy

If you want to open a thread to discuss the issues in E.Ukraine, please do so.

This thread is about a specific person who has aided corrupt folk to power in return for money.


If this thread is only about Paul Manafort and you ask others to respect the topic, then why did you write "Whether you trust President Z ( or not ) he has taken brave steps to end the fighting and embarrass the occupiers"?

I still want to know how you think Prez Z embarrassed Russia enough to stop the fighting.
Title: Re: Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy
Post by: msmob on November 15, 2019, 02:07:43 PM
My 'conditions' for entertaining your diversionary bollox were already clear - if your need is so great ..

I'll wait for you to do some research on the 'gentleman' who is the subject of THIS thread,,