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Author Topic: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...  (Read 34435 times)

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Offline BillyB

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #100 on: March 12, 2013, 07:49:02 PM »
If you can see that going in, it isn't going to be a lifetime, again IMHO, it's much better to not get in it.




Yet most guys on this forum are on their second or third marriages. 


Lot of intelligent people with good intentions participate at this forum. We thought we knew the bright future entering our first marriage but found out we aren't psychic.
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Offline LiveFromUkraine

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #101 on: March 12, 2013, 08:12:49 PM »


Lot of intelligent people with good intentions participate at this forum. We thought we knew the bright future entering our first marriage but found out we aren't psychic.


My post wasn't intended to slight anyone.  It was merely to present reality.  I think most people enter into marriage with the best of intentions yet we see a high divorce rate.


Things change and our society has made getting out of marriage incredibly easy.


I think most people wish for the movie love affairs that last forever.  Reality is different...  Look at people saying a marriage that lasts 10/14 years is considered successful.





« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 08:15:40 PM by LiveFromUkraine »

Offline ML

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #102 on: March 12, 2013, 08:37:29 PM »
These pre-nup discussions come up here frequently.

As some have said before me; it all boils down to one factor.
The haves and have-nots.

Those men who don't have substantial assets obviously see no reason for pre-nups.  But instead of admitting to the logic of why they feel this way, they espouse the high minded ideas of love, trust, knowing the other person, money is just pieces of paper and bla, bla, bla.

Sort of the reverse of the playboy with inherited wealth who ridicules someone who has to worry about where his next meal is coming from.

It is not a concern for him (where his next meal comes from); thus it is wrong for anyone else to be concerned.

Those women who don't have their own substantial assets despise the idea of pre-nups.

This is all pretty much cut and dry logic; yet the arguments go on and on.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 09:02:28 PM by ML »
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Offline Boethius

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #103 on: March 12, 2013, 08:38:54 PM »
Meh, I don't know.  I do have substantial assets.  But I wouldn't get a prenup anyway, and had I married a wealthy man, were I to divorce, I wouldn't ask for a cut of his assets.  It's just not the way I live.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline ML

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #104 on: March 12, 2013, 08:41:23 PM »
Meh, I don't know.  I do have substantial assets.  But I wouldn't get a prenup anyway, and had I married a wealthy man, were I to divorce, I wouldn't ask for a cut of his assets.  It's just not the way I live.

Boe, didn't you say somewhere earlier that you advise all your clients to get pre-nups.

Off to bed;  read your answer tomorrow.
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Offline Boethius

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #105 on: March 12, 2013, 08:46:24 PM »
No, most of my clients are already married.  But if a client of wealth is going into a second marriage, yes, I do advise them to get prenups, and if a client asked if it was a good idea from a legal perspective, I would say yes.  I don't draft them, though.


In my observation, businessmen are great providers, but, in general terms, they are not great husbands, unless their wives are equally involved in the business, or are fine being, for all intents and purposes, "single". 
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline calmissile

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #106 on: March 12, 2013, 09:29:28 PM »
No, most of my clients are already married.  But if a client of wealth is going into a second marriage, yes, I do advise them to get prenups, and if a client asked if it was a good idea from a legal perspective, I would say yes.  I don't draft them, though.


In my observation, businessmen are great providers, but, in general terms, they are not great husbands, unless their wives are equally involved in the business, or are fine being, for all intents and purposes, "single".

We agree on something.      :clapping:

I might point out that the wife does not necessarily need to be involved in the same business as her husband, but having her own career also often makes great marriages (assuming the kids are already gone).

Hate to admit you are right about businessmen often not making good husbands.  My mistake in my first marriage.  Owning a business and working 90 hours a week 6/7 days/week does not provide the quality time together.  Unfortunately it is often necessary in order for the business to survive the first 10 years or so.  When all of your assets are tied up in the business, it's sort of a trap.
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Online Faux Pas

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #107 on: March 12, 2013, 10:10:39 PM »

My post wasn't intended to slight anyone.  It was merely to present reality.  I think most people enter into marriage with the best of intentions yet we see a high divorce rate.


Things change and our society has made getting out of marriage incredibly easy.


I think most people wish for the movie love affairs that last forever.  Reality is different...  Look at people saying a marriage that lasts 10/14 years is considered successful.

Maybe it's because you make it different and accept that as an excuse, it's not.
These pre-nup discussions come up here frequently.

As some have said before me; it all boils down to one factor.
The haves and have-nots.

Those men who don't have substantial assets obviously see no reason for pre-nups.  But instead of admitting to the logic of why they feel this way, they espouse the high minded ideas of love, trust, knowing the other person, money is just pieces of paper and bla, bla, bla.

Sort of the reverse of the playboy with inherited wealth who ridicules someone who has to worry about where his next meal is coming from.

It is not a concern for him (where his next meal comes from); thus it is wrong for anyone else to be concerned.

Those women who don't have their own substantial assets despise the idea of pre-nups.

This is all pretty much cut and dry logic; yet the arguments go on and on.

Bullshit. You can beat off over your "substantial assets" till the cows come home and call prenups high moral ground but, it isn't. If you can't handle marriage, don't marry or marry someone with as much as you. It's quite simple isn't it? Or wait, your wealth is so substantial you have no equal? Cry me a river.  :rolleyes:

Offline Ade

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #108 on: March 12, 2013, 10:17:24 PM »
These pre-nup discussions come up here frequently.

As some have said before me; it all boils down to one factor.
The haves and have-nots.

Those men who don't have substantial assets obviously see no reason for pre-nups.  But instead of admitting to the logic of why they feel this way, they espouse the high minded ideas of love, trust, knowing the other person, money is just pieces of paper and bla, bla, bla.

Sort of the reverse of the playboy with inherited wealth who ridicules someone who has to worry about where his next meal is coming from.

It is not a concern for him (where his next meal comes from); thus it is wrong for anyone else to be concerned.

Those women who don't have their own substantial assets despise the idea of pre-nups.

This is all pretty much cut and dry logic; yet the arguments go on and on.

The way I think of it is that those with substantial assets banging about have far more they can give away without feeling the pinch. The less you have, the less you can afford and the longer it can take to recover - a school teacher losing half their house may never manage to buy another like it for instance. So, what does that say? The more money you have, the more you want? The more you have the greedier you are?

Personally, when I invested my life in marriage it was all in or nothing. Money and stuff aren't that important in the scheme of things anyway.

Offline calmissile

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #109 on: March 12, 2013, 10:41:25 PM »
Maybe it's because you make it different and accept that as an excuse, it's not.
Bullshit. You can beat off over your "substantial assets" till the cows come home and call prenups high moral ground but, it isn't. If you can't handle marriage, don't marry or marry someone with as much as you. It's quite simple isn't it? Or wait, your wealth is so substantial you have no equal? Cry me a river.  :rolleyes:

Let me understand your position better.  Lets take an example of a couple about to get married. 
The wife has 2 homes she inherited as well as an estate she is earning income from.  The hubby is a truck driver making average wages and no substantial assets.

If  I understand you correctly, both parties should pool all their money into one pot and live happily ever after.  If there is a divorce the 'pot' would be split 50/50.  Is this consistent with your logic?

« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 10:44:13 PM by calmissile »
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Offline jone

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #110 on: March 12, 2013, 10:56:13 PM »
Read what Faux Pas and Ade just said.

I have to agree with both of them.  Contemplating marriage, as I sit here the last day of another great trip to Kharkov, I would enter into marriage so that my penalty for being so stupid as to leave the marriage that I just entered into should be painful.  We make it too easy to leave, quite honestly.  If I do marry, I will do my utmost to give your beautiful daughter a playmate, immediately, Ade.  And hopefully more than one.  My goal would be to call myself I/O the 2nd.

I live simply.  Drive a pickup truck.  Don't collect things of great value.  Don't play golf, like Gator.  If you would read my profile, it would say that my only interest is my future family.  For years I have ejected AW girlfriends because they didn't have the same attitudes that I had.  That and the fact that none of them wanted to follow me on trips to Russia or Ukraine.  Those traditional values that Boe was relating above are certainly prevalent in Ukraine and parts of Russia that I have visited.

So the question of a pre-nup is abhorrent but necessary to me.  It is necessary to protect those assets related to a business operation that provides employment for many people.  But I am not a constant slave to my business and am able to segregate enough assets away from this business model that my wife would be assured that she was a winner in a court contest.  As I was reading this thread tonight, sitting just off the bed where my vision of beauty and loveliness resides, I realize that the ultimate solution might simply be to sell the business and walk away from it and concentrate on helping her pop out some babies.

When I was younger, my set of friends used to all buy large life insurance policies.  They called themselves the club whose wives were richer with them dead.  All kidding aside, none of them were offed by their wives.  Instead I watched with great pride that my friends all succeeded and that their families grew and displaced any need for displaying financial acumen.  Maybe CalMissile is right when he says that we are slaves to our business.  But I would like to expand that to say that we are slaves to the enterprise system and the governmental body of laws that support it.

In the end, it's just a guy and a gal, trying to create a stable family for themselves and their posterity.  There should be no assumption of a termination of marriage.  Simply, once children are involved, their interests take greater precedence then the interests of either of the parents, anyway.

To me, a successful marriage has no end.  And that's the way it should be.
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Offline Ade

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #111 on: March 13, 2013, 12:06:33 AM »
If you, as a couple, have similar core values the question of a pre-nup or not should not really arise. It'll be fairly obvious if you need it. If you don't have similar core values or don't really know if you do, the question you should be asking is if it's wise for you to be getting married in the first place....




Offline Patagonie

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #112 on: March 13, 2013, 12:42:05 AM »
These pre-nup discussions come up here frequently.

As some have said before me; it all boils down to one factor.
The haves and have-nots.

Those men who don't have substantial assets obviously see no reason for pre-nups.  But instead of admitting to the logic of why they feel this way, they espouse the high minded ideas of love, trust, knowing the other person, money is just pieces of paper and bla, bla, bla.

Sort of the reverse of the playboy with inherited wealth who ridicules someone who has to worry about where his next meal is coming from.

It is not a concern for him (where his next meal comes from); thus it is wrong for anyone else to be concerned.

Those women who don't have their own substantial assets despise the idea of pre-nups.

This is all pretty much cut and dry logic; yet the arguments go on and on.
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Offline Patagonie

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #113 on: March 13, 2013, 02:02:16 AM »
As i have already said : "The problem of trust and fairness is two totally differents things and should be strictly evaluated apart. It shouldn't be linked at any time."

There are here who try to link it all time.


Knowing what had become divorce last two decades for men who are making more than average  (generally all posters here are involved)  : almost 1 mariage fails for two.
Would you push YOUR SON (or incoming), with the same logic, especially if he is brilliant and especially if your couple would have paid through the nose a graduate university for him ???

I would see how many, man and woman, defending  the binary logic "you trust, you halve" (in fact it is more than halving for the men, some have come here saying that they have lost till 80%) will continue to apply it the day they marry their son (curiously the problem doesn't exist for daughters.)
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Offline Ade

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #114 on: March 13, 2013, 02:13:02 AM »
As i have already said : "The problem of trust and fairness is two totally differents things and should be strictly evaluated apart. It shouldn't be linked at any time."

There are here who try to link it all time.


Knowing what had become divorce last two decades for men who are making more than average  (generally all posters here are involved)  : almost 1 mariage fails for two.
Would you push YOUR SON (or incoming), with the same logic, especially if he is brilliant and especially if your couple would have paid through the nose a graduate university for him ???

I would see how many, man and woman, defending  the binary logic "you trust, you halve" (in fact it is more than halving for the men, some have come here saying that they have lost till 80%) will continue to apply it the day they marry their son (curiously the problem doesn't exist for daughters.)


I would, and will, try to teach my kids what is really valuable in life and that is certainly not related to money or stuff.


This is the real difference between most of those that want a pre-nup and those that don't. You guys value stuff way too much and I suspect it will hurt your marriages in the long run.  :-X

Offline Patagonie

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #115 on: March 13, 2013, 04:47:51 AM »

I would, and will, try to teach my kids what is really valuable in life and that is certainly not related to money or stuff.


This is the real difference between most of those that want a pre-nup and those that don't. You guys value stuff way too much and I suspect it will hurt your marriages in the long run.  :-X

What will hurt me will be, as most part of my wealth comes from my family is to see my father, grand father, grand mother standing up from their graves and looking at me every morning in the bathroom with this disappointed face : "why have you been so stupid ?" for the rest of my life if i divorce,  giving a large part of what i own. Do i spit to 3 full generations of labour, my own blood ? THREE GENERATIONS of labour disbanded in few minutes because i im too lazy or too craven to not sign a document ? 
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 04:49:22 AM by Patagonie »
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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #116 on: March 13, 2013, 07:27:29 AM »
Let me understand your position better.  Lets take an example of a couple about to get married. 
The wife has 2 homes she inherited as well as an estate she is earning income from.  The hubby is a truck driver making average wages and no substantial assets.

If  I understand you correctly, both parties should pool all their money into one pot and live happily ever after.  If there is a divorce the 'pot' would be split 50/50.  Is this consistent with your logic?

No calmissle, that is not at all what I stated. Does the wife having two homes and an income earning estate seem to you as the prevailing problem here?

Much as Ade pointed out. If you have 5 million in personal wealth and get divorced and lose half of it to a spouse thus leaving you with a paltry 2.5 million and the guy down the street has $100K in his 401K account and $50K equity in his house and loses half of that in a divorce, who is the worse off? You greedy bastids will say the one with 2.5 mil and that's just not the the case. Would you rather have the 2.5 mil or the $75K most of which is nothing but paper? So you guys with "substantial assets" whinning over "oh I HAVE to have a prenup" are just blowing smoke up your own ass. If you are that weathy and that scared of losing some or all of it, simply don't marry.

That said, a good business person is going to protect that business. Separating personal wealth from business wealth is sound business practice. If I had a family fortune and heirs to protect, I would protect them but, that would not be "my" wealth anyway. I would still have "my" personal wealth and a woman I chose to marry would be subject to that.

I am not a wealthy man by any measures but, I am no pauper either. However, my personal wealth is just as important to me as you blowhards claiming "substantial assets". Do not think for a moment that it isn't. Back to my original point, I would not marry a woman who was not worthy of at least half of my "stuff"  :D


Offline Muzh

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #117 on: March 13, 2013, 07:32:29 AM »

Facing these costs, why would a man enter a marriage expecting it to fail? I assert the man who marries has trust.    Call him mentally impaired because of  cranial-phallic blood shunting, yet for sure he is a believer in the institution of marriage, family etc.

You are the one who does not get it.

If a man trust his babe, there is no reason for him to start thinking about divorce and maintenance BEFORE they even get married.

Ergo, anyone who is demanding prenups is planning to fail.

It IS that plain and simple.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Muzh

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #118 on: March 13, 2013, 07:34:13 AM »
Here is something to ponder for fun!

What if the situation was reversed.......
The wife wants the husband to immigrate to the FSU because she does not want to immigrate.
Assuming the roles were reversed....
The poor guy will have to further his education to get a job and that will take time.
He is leaving all his friends and relatives behind which he loves dearly.
What happens when the quick tempered FSU wife throws him out of the house without a penny?
How will he survive?
He might even have to start a forum for whining men that were abused by their wives and left destitute.

Should he make the same demands for security in advance such as some women are suggesting?

Sorry, just a twisted moment today.

Tough walking in somebody else shoes, isn't it?
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Muzh

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #119 on: March 13, 2013, 07:35:23 AM »
I never said that a guy should loose nothing. 
But obsiouvly this one was enough stupid to not sign a prenup to protect his business at least.
So yes the court didn't protect him because the common mariage didn't not exclude business and so the court.
He should have sign a prenup like Gator has explained previously.

Pat, let me be a little more clear.

The court does NOT defend stupidity.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Muzh

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #120 on: March 13, 2013, 07:39:15 AM »
The problem with a prenup IMHO, is it provides and establishes an "out". Marriage is suppose to be for a lifetime. If you can see that going in, it isn't going to be a lifetime, again IMHO, it's much better to not get in it. Marriage can and does require real sacrifice (and lots of work - Me) that goes well beyond money and possessions. A prenup is as tempting to both parties that agreed to it to check it's worth and exit the marriage when the waters get rough.

The answer to all questions. Right here.

To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Muzh

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #121 on: March 13, 2013, 07:41:33 AM »


Lot of intelligent people with good intentions participate at this forum. We thought we knew the bright future entering our first marriage but found out we aren't psychic.

Actually, we weren't smart or we were lazy, or both.

Psychic has nothing to do with this. The sooner you realize the above the better the chances at your marriage.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Muzh

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #122 on: March 13, 2013, 07:44:16 AM »
These pre-nup discussions come up here frequently.

As some have said before me; it all boils down to one factor.
The haves and have-nots.

Those men who don't have substantial assets obviously see no reason for pre-nups.  But instead of admitting to the logic of why they feel this way, they espouse the high minded ideas of love, trust, knowing the other person, money is just pieces of paper and bla, bla, bla.

Sort of the reverse of the playboy with inherited wealth who ridicules someone who has to worry about where his next meal is coming from.

It is not a concern for him (where his next meal comes from); thus it is wrong for anyone else to be concerned.

Those women who don't have their own substantial assets despise the idea of pre-nups.

This is all pretty much cut and dry logic; yet the arguments go on and on.

Bullshevik

It is plain and simple, that bitch is not getting any of mine.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Muzh

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #123 on: March 13, 2013, 07:48:02 AM »
Let me understand your position better.  Lets take an example of a couple about to get married. 
The wife has 2 homes she inherited as well as an estate she is earning income from.  The hubby is a truck driver making average wages and no substantial assets.

If  I understand you correctly, both parties should pool all their money into one pot and live happily ever after.  If there is a divorce the 'pot' would be split 50/50.  Is this consistent with your logic?

I though marriage was two becoming one. I guess I've been deluded all these years.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Muzh

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Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
« Reply #124 on: March 13, 2013, 07:52:22 AM »

I would, and will, try to teach my kids what is really valuable in life and that is certainly not related to money or stuff.


This is the real difference between most of those that want a pre-nup and those that don't. You guys value stuff way too much and I suspect it will hurt your marriages in the long run.  :-X

Great planning.

I started early with my older children and I'm starting to see some fruition. Still working on the little one.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

 

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