Syria, America and Putin's Bluff

[fathertime]

As for Africa: You can watch this little tidbit of truth.


http://www.coop99.at/darwins-nightmare/darwin/html/startset.htm

Now that you folks had successfully dragged that once isolationist country called USA, you folks are the first to take a stand atop that silly pedestal of morality.

Very funny.

Thanks for providing that movie Gqblues, It was fascinating if for those that have an interest as to what life is like in Africa....the Europeans were portrayed as arrogant, lazy, pleasure seeking, over-consuming, sloths...while the Africans were poor simple victims...


One part I found particularly interesting and telling is where the African man was saying that maybe the Europeans are better survivors because they have the great European banks...that was kinda funny coming from the guy whose fellow countrymen were living off of rotting fish heads and tails for supper.




Guns for grapes!


Fathertime! 

[lordtiberius]

Hey Lordtiberious,  I really don't have good answers to all your valid questions..I just don't think these issues in far away countries are our problem to deal with militarily...Sure if we can do some genuine peacekeeping every so often that would be great and create genuine good will which could be mutually beneficial...every time we start bombing or using 'pinprick strikes' to force regime change we create many more people who want to do harm to us...it just isn't worth it.


Fathertime!

+1
Maybe a retreat is in order . . . TY for the honest reply

[GQBlues]

...Guns for grapes!..

It's great piece of documentary. Like the producer stated, ""I could make the same kind of movie in Sierra Leone, only the fish would be diamonds, in Honduras, bananas, and in Libya, Nigeria or Angola, crude oil." Considering the recent state in Libya - how prophetic was that statement?

Africa is arguably the riches continent in the planet with all it's resources, yet it houses the poorest of societies. All these folks get out of their land are guns, HIVs and hate.

As with many places in our 4 corners, this is the reality and aftermath of colonization for a lot of nations.

"...It is, for example, incredible that wherever prime raw material is discovered, the locals die in misery, their sons become soldiers, and their daughters are turned into servants and whores. Hearing and seeing the same stories over and over makes me feel sick. After hundreds of years of slavery and colonisation of Africa, globalisation of african markets is the third and deadliest humiliation for the people of this continent. The arrogance of rich countries towards the third world (that's three quarters of humanity) is creating immeasurable future dangers for all peoples...."

I think the movie was largely taken out for copyright reasons as I can no longer find it. But if you ever have a chance, watch the entire movie. I like the night guardsman with the poison arrows. Funny guy..

"You wait until man inside fence, then you can shoot him".
 

[BillyB]

 

Second, there are countries who don't believe our "evidence" is conclusive and it is not clear WHO used the chemicals.

 
The type of chemical weapons that were used need to be mixed before used. It requires major protective gear worn by trained personnel and sophisticated military equipment to insert the chemicals into the rockets. I seriously doubt the rebels have the ability to do that unless Assad let that equipment and training get out of his hands too.
 
 

I got news for you. Assad prtected the Christians, the Jews and other religions from being 'purified' by the Muslims. Fat chance of that happening if the rebels take government.

Nobody's completely evil but he's a long way from being perfect.
 

Assad has been elected in a presidential election with more real support as Obaman.But of course every election where the 'wrong' person wins is fraudulent and invalid.

An Iraqi friend of mine says when he voted during the days of Saddam, there is a guy with a gun looking over his shoulder asking him who he's voting for.
 
Assad has more support than Obama? You're not understanding the real world. American's are nowhere near the point of tearing this country apart compared to the people who live in the Middle East with their governments. Assad ruled with fear, not support.
 

Do not forget that Europe built your country.

Europeans who left Europe built America. They did business with Europe and paid taxes but risked their lives to fight for freedom.
 
Shadow, there are some in America who have your philosophy when it comes to taking action. There were Americans in WW1 and 2 who protested getting involved in Europe's wars. We sold weapons to Western Europe but it still took convincing the American public we should enter those wars. I'm glad America did because it was the right thing to do. Syria is not as big as a world war but Assad is a bad man who needs to be punished, not removed from his leadership. It's his people who have to decide if he's to be removed.
 

BillyB, check your history . The US did NOT liberate China, they supported an anti-Japanese Chinese leader - Chang Kai-Shek -

He was better than supporting Mao. Chinese lost the most people after the Soviet Union. They had hundreds of thousands of women forced into prostitution.. Call it liberation or whatever you want, I'm sure the Chinese were happy we pushed Japan back to where they came from.

[lordtiberius]

If you want this war, you fight it.  If you can't or won't, then at least have the combat stripes to say you 'did your time.'  Tired of chicken hawks . . . (Bill O'Reilly, Obama, Boehner and his hawk dems-repubs-DC statists)

[Muzh]

Hey Lordtiberious,  I really don't have good answers to all your valid questions..I just don't think these issues in far away countries are our problem to deal with militarily...Sure if we can do some genuine peacekeeping every so often that would be great and create genuine good will which could be mutually beneficial...every time we start bombing or using 'pinprick strikes' to force regime change we create many more people who want to do harm to us...it just isn't worth it.


Fathertime!

LMAO
 
So, what do you suppose we do with our military-industrial complex responsible for all these smart weapons capable of 'pinprick strikes?' The one who basically generates about one-quarter of the FULL TIME with benefits US workforce?
 
I'm all ears.

[Muzh]

If you want this war, you fight it.  If you can't or won't, then at least have the combat stripes to say you 'did your time.'  Tired of chicken hawks . . . (Bill O'Reilly, Obama, Boehner and his hawk dems-repubs-DC statists)

Pssst, time for your meds. You don't want Betsy to see you like this, don't you?

[lordtiberius]

LMAO
 
So, what do you suppose we do with our military-industrial complex responsible for all these smart weapons capable of 'pinprick strikes?' The one who basically generates about one-quarter of the FULL TIME with benefits US workforce?
 
I'm all ears.

No hate.  You are the only one that has with great loyalty supported Obama through this.  I'm all ears.  What should our policy me?
 

[lordtiberius]

Pssst, time for your meds. You don't want Betsy to see you like this, don't you?

Do you support this war?  Do you support this President all the way?  yes or no . . .

[fathertime]

LMAO
 
So, what do you suppose we do with our military-industrial complex responsible for all these smart weapons capable of 'pinprick strikes?' The one who basically generates about one-quarter of the FULL TIME with benefits US workforce?
 
I'm all ears.

If we have enough of these bombs, then make or do something else useful with our men and materials…making these weapons doesn't obligate us to use them so we can employ people to make more.


I’m not sure what you say you are laughing about.


Fathertime! 

[mendeleyev]

The type of chemical weapons that were used need to be mixed before used. It requires major protective gear worn by trained personnel and sophisticated military equipment to insert the chemicals into the rockets. I seriously doubt the rebels have the ability to do that unless Assad let that equipment and training get out of his hands too.

Good point, Billy. Unfortunately, the folks who have been imported into this civil war to join the rebels are not just unemployed Chechens. I'm told that there was a revelation today in the Benghazi hearings that the CIA has not only been running weapons and money to the rebels, but persons of expertise as well.

[Muzh]

If we have enough of these bombs, then make or do something else useful with our men and materials…making these weapons doesn't obligate us to use them so we can employ people to make more.


I’m not sure what you say you are laughing about.


Fathertime!

Not laughing, just being cynical. And not really at you.
 
Reality is, there will never be enough bombs. There will always be a smarter bomb, airplane, battleship, phaser, etc.
 
On top of that, population is growing exponentially. When do you think Mother Nature is pulling the plug and have a REAL world war?
 
It is just a matter of time.
 
Think for a second. Here, closer to home. There are a number of aquifers that feed NYC. Their volume are decreasing. But there are corporations who are trying to extract natural gas on top/around/under many of those aquifers.
 
The same people who depend on those aquifers want these corporations to LEASE their land and extract natural gas, potentially exposing potable water to poisons. Why would they do that? Because they need their SUV and 60" HDTV and smartphone. Most of them are planning to lease and move.
 
So, what happens to those whose water has been contaminated?
 
This is how things start.
 
Rationing water, scalping bottled water prices, "demand" of crude to produce the plastic to make the bottles to bring the water to people spiking the price of gas which wil make the government to look to cheap sources of crude to satisfy demand which will create rancor and ill will somewhere else because we take what we want making other countries retaliate for our agression which will provoke a 'measured' reaction which.....
 
Just ask around; here.

[fathertime]

Not laughing, just being cynical. And not really at you.
 
Reality is, there will never be enough bombs. There will always be a smarter bomb, airplane, battleship, phaser, etc.
 
On top of that, population is growing exponentially. When do you think Mother Nature is pulling the plug and have a REAL world war?
 
It is just a matter of time.
 
Think for a second. Here, closer to home. There are a number of aquifers that feed NYC. Their volume are decreasing. But there are corporations who are trying to extract natural gas on top/around/under many of those aquifers.
 
The same people who depend on those aquifers want these corporations to LEASE their land and extract natural gas, potentially exposing potable water to poisons. Why would they do that? Because they need their SUV and 60" HDTV and smartphone. Most of them are planning to lease and move.
 
So, what happens to those whose water has been contaminated?
 
This is how things start.
 
Rationing water, scalping bottled water prices, "demand" of crude to produce the plastic to make the bottles to bring the water to people spiking the price of gas which wil make the government to look to cheap sources of crude to satisfy demand which will create rancor and ill will somewhere else because we take what we want making other countries retaliate for our agression which will provoke a 'measured' reaction which.....
 
Just ask around; here.

It's cool Muzh, I thought you thought I said something stupid.


Yeah I guess we are bound to have another world war someday...us humans are still prone to being animals, all we gotta do is look around in nature to see what other animals do to something weaker or vulnerable...Unlike the other animals we have the artificial ability to destroy everything in this world through nukes and other weapons of mass destruction,  and we probably don't have the built in inhibition to not use this power.  I remember reading that the animals with the least natural weaponry are the most apt to brutally use the minimal weaponry that they do have...I.E. Chickens. 


Fathertime! 

[Shadow]

 
 
The type of chemical weapons that were used need to be mixed before used. It requires major protective gear worn by trained personnel and sophisticated military equipment to insert the chemicals into the rockets. I seriously doubt the rebels have the ability to do that unless Assad let that equipment and training get out of his hands too.
 
 
Nobody's completely evil but he's a long way from being perfect.
 
An Iraqi friend of mine says when he voted during the days of Saddam, there is a guy with a gun looking over his shoulder asking him who he's voting for.
 
Assad has more support than Obama? You're not understanding the real world. American's are nowhere near the point of tearing this country apart compared to the people who live in the Middle East with their governments. Assad ruled with fear, not support.
 
Europeans who left Europe built America. They did business with Europe and paid taxes but risked their lives to fight for freedom.
 
Shadow, there are some in America who have your philosophy when it comes to taking action. There were Americans in WW1 and 2 who protested getting involved in Europe's wars. We sold weapons to Western Europe but it still took convincing the American public we should enter those wars. I'm glad America did because it was the right thing to do. Syria is not as big as a world war but Assad is a bad man who needs to be punished, not removed from his leadership. It's his people who have to decide if he's to be removed.
 
He was better than supporting Mao. Chinese lost the most people after the Soviet Union. They had hundreds of thousands of women forced into prostitution.. Call it liberation or whatever you want, I'm sure the Chinese were happy we pushed Japan back to where they came from.

BillyB, be happy withh your support for Al-Qaeda. As the decision to remove Assad awas taken long ago, there will be false flag operations until it is managed.
Then the operation will be as succesful as the ones in Egypt in Lybia, turning the country in to a new Iran.
But that will keep the war mongers happy.

[BillyB]

 

BillyB, be happy withh your support for Al-Qaeda. As the decision to remove Assad awas taken long ago, there will be false flag operations until it is managed.
Then the operation will be as succesful as the ones in Egypt in Lybia, turning the country in to a new Iran.
But that will keep the war mongers happy.

I never said I support Al-Qaeda although they are fighting to remove Assad. Does anybody believe most Americans support Stalin because we teamed up with him against Hitler. It's business, not about friendship.
 
Controlled by terrorists or tyrants, the people in the Middle East can't seem to win but make no mistake, most people over there want what we have.
 
 

the folks who have been imported into this civil war to join the rebels are not just unemployed Chechens. I'm told that there was a revelation today in the Benghazi hearings that the CIA has not only been running weapons and money to the rebels, but persons of expertise as well.

It's very unbelievable that the CIA trained people to handle chemical weapons. If a master mechanic told you how to rebuild and engine, how successful would you be if you went out and did it yourself without the hands of the master mechanic.
 
Mixing chemicals and inserting them into weapons isn't for dummies or beginners. Even putting on the chemical protective suit is sophisticated that if one mistake happened, a guy is dead. On top of that there must be large facilities with controlled environments available for this process and special tools. And if the CIA was a part of that, then we'd have to accuse Obama of a sinister act and we'd have to ask him to return the Nobel Peace Prize.
 
Many people in this world believe Assad didn't do it because he said so and of course us common folks need to review the evidence ourselves. Not going to happen but if anybody understands anything about the kind of weapons that were used on the scale it was used, it was most likely done by a trained army that specializes in rockets and chemical weapons.
 
I don't blame America and the CIA helping the rebels in other ways. America didn't invent the spy business but it's a necessity. Russia, Iran, North Korea all got their spies out there to increase their influence and reduce ours. The world can be an ugly place but is America trying to make it ugly or a better place?
 
Syria doesn't have as much oil as Libya and their war doesn't affect prices at home which in turn affects economy so most countries have taken a different stance on Syria compared to Libya. No matter whether is for or against military action against Syria, we, at the forum, make our decisions based on what is going to save lives and be beneficial for long term world peace.

[Faux Pas]

 
I never said I support Al-Qaeda although they are fighting to remove Assad. Does anybody believe most Americans support Stalin because we teamed up with him against Hitler. It's business, not about friendship.
 
Controlled by terrorists or tyrants, the people in the Middle East can't seem to win but make no mistake, most people over there want what we have.
 

You should stick to what you know and this ain't it. You do not seem to have an inkling about Islam as a religion or the tribal culture so ingrained in it. It's not about business Billy, it's about power and control.

Most don't want what we have. If they did, they'd have it and they wouldn't have to be savage to get it.
 

It's very unbelievable that the CIA trained people to handle chemical weapons. If a master mechanic told you how to rebuild and engine, how successful would you be if you went out and did it yourself without the hands of the master mechanic.
 
Mixing chemicals and inserting them into weapons isn't for dummies or beginners. Even putting on the chemical protective suit is sophisticated that if one mistake happened, a guy is dead. On top of that there must be large facilities with controlled environments available for this process and special tools. And if the CIA was a part of that, then we'd have to accuse Obama of a sinister act and we'd have to ask him to return the Nobel Peace Prize.
 
Many people in this world believe Assad didn't do it because he said so and of course us common folks need to review the evidence ourselves. Not going to happen but if anybody understands anything about the kind of weapons that were used on the scale it was used, it was most likely done by a trained army that specializes in rockets and chemical weapons.
 
I don't blame America and the CIA helping the rebels in other ways. America didn't invent the spy business but it's a necessity. Russia, Iran, North Korea all got their spies out there to increase their influence and reduce ours. The world can be an ugly place but is America trying to make it ugly or a better place?
 
Syria doesn't have as much oil as Libya and their war doesn't affect prices at home which in turn affects economy so most countries have taken a different stance on Syria compared to Libya. No matter whether is for or against military action against Syria, we, at the forum, make our decisions based on what is going to save lives and be beneficial for long term world peace.

You are bogged down in logistics and it holds no water. Terrorist, Al Quada are quite resourceful and a number of countries line up to provide them with everything they can. They don't have to manufacture guns and bullets to shoot each other with and they don't have to have chemical weapon technology to use chemical weapons. Where they came from is a debatable point, who used them is a debatable point but, that they were used is not debatable. The real truth about who and how will probably never be known. There are a lot of players in the Syria clusterfack that will also never be known. To even begin you grasp a modicum of what happen there, one has to think much deeper than you are with this thought.

[lordtiberius]

We have been too polite - timid.  You cannot divorce modern Russia with its Soviet past, as many old Soviet hands guide policy today.  Russian nationalism drove Soviet policy as it does in Russia today.  What's changed?

[mendeleyev]

 

Russian nationalism drove Soviet policy as it does in Russia today.  What's changed?

In Soviet times, how many leaders were Russian?

LT, American nationalism was alive and well then as it is now. What we have here is one country, the USA, used to getting what it wants from others. When anoyher country dares have a different set of goals no matter whether legitimate or not, we Americans quickly get our panties in a wad over it.

We throw stones at Soviet expansionism but seem to forget how we came into possession of places like Puerto Rico, Guam, the Northern Mariana Islands, our involvement in the Philippines, the Panama Canal (Columbia-Panama anyone?), American Samoa, and what we acquired via the Mexican-Amercian war.

Those who live in glass houses have no business throwing stones.   

[LAman]

Mendy.....did you forget the best deal yet...the Louisiana Purchase at ~4 cents an acre??? 

[GQBlues]

Nah...methinks Mendy just want Alaska back. 

[lordtiberius]

how much money did Russia spend on Georgia's reconstruction after the Russians invaded?  Why dont they give South Ossentia back?  If you are going to resort to cheap intellectually dishonest historical anachronisms to score political points just throw slavery back in our faces.  It works for the other communists.

Here's to a sense of proportion

and obtw, if your in the habit of renouncing your American citizenship bit by bit by these back biting attacks from the hand that fed ya, maybe its time the nations of eastern europe get reparations in the way of oil revenue for the illegal occupation that started in 1945.

[mendeleyev]

LT, let's agree on a trade: I'll try my best to have Putin give SO back to the original owners (and that wouldn't be Georgia) if you'll try your best to convince Obummer to return Puerto Rico.

Since when did having an honest look at history qualify for giving back citizenship? Remember that those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Here's to a sense of proportion

We agree on the goals of this undefined statement, but will we agree as to what it means once defined?

just throw slavery back in our faces.  It works for the other communists.

The very fact that you employed the phrase "just throw...back in our faces" tells me that my examples are working. Kind of like a sore tooth in that we'd like to deny the throbbing, but the pain is very real.

But on to slavery. I could begin by asking when was the last time you heard a Commie use that line? I have a couple of КПРФ friends, not many, and I am glad they're young and will hopefully grow out of it but none of them seem interested about slavery in the USA.

Oh, by the way, not only is Vladimir Putin not a Communist, but the communists hate him and they'll tell you than he isn't one either. He likes money too much and isn't willing to share it. He simply doesn't qualify any longer. His interest has always been in the past the same as it is today: power.

If you must know, I believe that the USA treatment of the slave question, over the long view, has been one of the "shining city on a hill" achievements for the USA. We shed slavery, and no we weren't perfect, but we shed the practice and joined other world nations in condemning it. The UK beat us to it in 1833 although allowing some areas of the empire to continue for a period.

The situation may not be perfect but the issue is for the most part over. Today's youth, the future leadership and rank and file of the republic, is colour-blind. Racism is dead except in certain pockets of the white south, very small pockets, and reverse racism among some African Americans. There is a "pretend racism" among some segments of the Hispanic community when the subject of immigration comes up but I challenge my Hispanic friends to tell me where else in the world an illegal alien can qualify for food stamps, drivers licenses, housing assistance, free public schools, medical care, enjoy the freedom to buy homes and cars, and do all that income tax free.

By 1807 British ships had been arresting captains of vessels containing slaves. But as you know it continued in South Africa for a long time. It was the California State Employees retirement fund along with big retirement funds of other states that really got the ball rolling and as the US Congress began to put pressure on the government of South Africa, the realization that disinvestment was hitting their economy hard as more and more large retirement funds began to help the ruling minority understand that change was necessary.

Russia beat us to it, abolishing outright slavery in 1723 but they held onto serfdom, a kinder and gentler form of slavery if there is such a thing, until 1861 the same year the war between the states began in the USA. Spain banished the practice in 1818 and Denmark abolished slavery in 1848.

Pope John Paul II played an important role in the international battle against slavery at the UN. Slavery continues to be a problem in many Muslim countries.

Sometimes I'm asked by Russians why it took a war in the USA while slavery was abolished by decree in Russia. I understand that these are well meaning questions asked in good faith, but I also understand that they're asked in the context of what Russians believe to be their history--and official versions of Russian history aren't always that accurate.

To begin, I explain that Russia was ruled by a Tsar who was all powerful. He didn't need to court votes in the Congress, didn't need to make stump speeches from coast to coast, and he had states with the authority to leave the union if they didn't like his ideas. None of that was true of Russia.

There were four imperial Duma's during the time of the Tsars and the quickest way to have the Tsar abolish the Duma was to oppose his ideas. There were some rocky times and some Duma assemblies did oppose the Tsar, especially in times of declaring wars, but the word Tsar means "Caesar" for a reason.

I also remind those asking such a question that Russian's didn't readily accept such proclamations. If you ever travel to Saint Petersburg you will undoubtedly see one of the most beautiful churches ever designed, the Church of the Saviour on Spilled Blood. In 1881 Tsar Aleksandr II was traveling along the Griboedov Canal when grenades were thrown at his carriage and he was murdered on the spot where the church stands today. This assassination came at a time when Aleksandr was facing two serious challenges, one from Polish dissidents seeking independence (the Tsar of Russia was also the King of Poland and ruler of Finland) and the wealthy landowner class that was up in arms over the abolition of serfdom. So, freeing other human beings wasn't as easy and carefree as some Russians may believe.

Depending on the conversation I sometimes venture into the slavery of Eastern Europe. That is a hard one because Roosevelt and Churchill were complicit on that sad sellout. We like to point fingers at Stalin for that episode of slavery but every time we point one finger in Stalin's direction, the other four are pointing back at FDR.

One of the most revered military/police units during Soviet times was the Border Patrol. Primarily under control of the NKVD, the Soviet Border Patrol was the largest in the world and covered more territory than another other similar service in the world. The CCCP essentially had two borders, the first was labeled as the border and then there was a buffer zone that ran another two kilometers to the real border.

Without written authorization, no Soviet citizen was allowed in that border zone. As you can imagine, other than a silly teen from West Germany who flew his small plane into Russian air space in 1987 and landed on Red Square, not many folk were attempting to sneak into the CCCP other than those meeting with certain underground groups and goods smugglers. Illegal immigration wasn't a problem back then.

To some Russians that is a surprise, to others it isn't as much. It depends on the individual. The border patrol was a very elite group of Communists and they were highly vetted for their ideology and Communist credentials. Some interesting names from the border patrol included former Soviet leader Konstantin Chernenko, the current President for Life of Belarus Aleksandr Lukashenko, and Mikhail Saakashvilli, former president of Georgia.

One of the more contemplative times I experienced on the Moscow Metro was back around the late 90s or early 2000s. A small group of black teens stepped on board and immediately moved to the rear of the wagon where I happened to be seated. Instantly I discerned from skin tone that they weren't from Africa or the Middle East, nor from Cuba. These kids had the same soft black skin you'd find on a typical African American. They were too young to be in college and what little they spoke was in fluent Russian which was perfectly free of any African, Indian or Latin accents.

I surmised that they were grandchildren from the group of black Americans who'd come to Russia during the early Soviet years. At that time the Communist party was very active in the USA and some black citizens were encouraged to give Communism a try. They were filled with dreams of equality, free housing and plentiful jobs. This all came with the promise of no discrimination. For the few thousand black Ameircans who did move their families to Soviet Russia, the dream turned out to be a nightmare.

These kids were fairly quiet, stayed to themselves and avoided eye contact with most other passengers, as ones who knew their place and sadly their place wasn't in the general population. As that was still somewhat during the times of economic turmoil, I'd be safe in saying their presence in Russia was resented. Just more mouths to feed, black ones at that.

They transferred quickly at the next stop and I was left there thinking of their plight. There are times when I wonder what their lives are like today and from the books they carried was glad that they were receiving an education with the hope that someday the dreams of their grandparents for equality and opportunity might come true for those kids, even in Russia.

Even in Russia.

[lordtiberius]

Given the choice between ignorance and a juandiced view of history, it would behoove one to find a third way.

The Puerto Rican Independence Party almost lost official recognition, that's how popular they are.  Tell you what Mendeleyev, we will give us the PR once you give up Siberia.  It isn't yours.  Or better yet, lets have a vote,let Siberia and the PR if they want independence, join Russia or join the US. 

You lamented that you didnt want Russia to be a US province, would that really AT THIS POINT be that bad?

[BillyB]

You should stick to what you know and this ain't it. You do not seem to have an inkling about Islam as a religion or the tribal culture so ingrained in it. It's not about business Billy, it's about power and control.
 

 
Where did you learn about Islam? Harvard University? Television? Cooking school? Just because a few dozen terrorist organizations and dictators get the most attention, they don't represent the face of Islam unless that is what you want to imagine. Those few dozen trouble makers need to be dealt with, not everybody within the religion.
 
There was a time in history some people pegged Christianity the way you pegged Islam. Holy Crusade Christians wanted power, land and riches.
 
 

Most don't want what we have. If they did, they'd have it and they wouldn't have to be savage to get it.
 

I have a few Muslim friends that like it in America and don't want to go back. They want what we got. You've been watching too much Al Jazeera TV believing they all hate us. Remember how the Iraqi's cheered when American tanks rolled through Baghdad? A lot of Middle Eastern countries enjoy our military presence there.
 
As far as savagery goes, very few people can pull off a Ghandi to achieve freedom. Most have to get as savage as the American colonists were with the British Empire.

[lordtiberius]

Bb, fp is right.  Spent a lot of time in the ME.  We can trust the Jews, the Kurds,the Christians and Muslims we pay in that order.  Never forget that