Tver trip/agency report

[Bruce]

Bear, you definitely deserve better.  Delta sure gave you a bum deal.  I really think you need to re-think your approach.  There are many RW / UW who would make a great wife for you who will definitely make you know they are into you.  It is good you remembered that when a RW is into you she will show you loud and clear........
Best of luck next time.

[Mir]

Moscow was ok, but it was extremely rushed and very impersonable-no charactor compared to St. Petersburg

I find this an interesting comment.
For centuries Moscow was the cultural heart of Russia. St Petersburg while beautiful was a European city, a showcase for the Europeans to visit and say they have been to Russia while the Russians living there were told that they(Russians) were Europeans.
I agree that Moscow is very busy and noisy place to be but if it has no character then that does not speak well for individual Russian culture.

[timothe]

...I'm not sure if it was just her or Russian women in general, but she would sleep until 1:PM or so and then take and hour or two to get ready.  I would wake up around 8:00am and then just walk for several hours exploring the city... 

Again, your experience mirrors my first trip, except that I was stuck at the Hotel Sibir in Novosibirsk waiting for cold fish to get out of bed.

My fiancee is the exact opposite.  Although she'll sleep until 9 or 10am, once she's up, she's going.  She wants to see and do things all day.  She ran me ragged, to be honest.

You ended up with a whack job...plain and simple.  She missed her best chance at a better life in you.  Too bad for her, but good for you that you found out now instead of after she arrived. 

[Lily]

  She missed her best chance at a better life in you.  Too bad for her, but good for you that you found out now instead of after she arrived. 

Did she? Why you call it a better life for her if she is not attracted to the man? She is just being honest to him signaling that she is not the woman who could make Bear happy.

[groovlstk]

Did she? Why you call it a better life for her if she is not attracted to the man? She is just being honest to him signaling that she is not the woman who could make Bear happy.

Lily's right, if all the woman cared about was a better life, how would that benefit Bear? He'd be a mule or, at best, someone she hoped to fall in love with somewhere down the line while deceiving him about her true feelings.

[Christian]

I/O

  I really have nothing to complain about-I have good job that I am extremely good at (So my evaluations keep telling me), I am responsible for 8-12 Police Officers at any given time, I enjoy what I do (most of the time), I can afford to do most of the things I want, I've traveled to Ukraine, Europe and Russia.  I am healthy, have a roof over my head with food in the pantry and money in the bank, my income to debit ratio is in my favor- all in all I think I've done pretty good for a high school drop out.

  It would have been nice if X had been interested, but I was lucky in that I've seen a part of Russian people that most tourists will never see.  I have had a small glimpse of how you are treated if they like you and welcomed as one of their own and THAT is something you cannot purchase anywhere at any price.  I have been very lucky in my life and things have a way of happening that you cannot plan for. 

  With all of the things I see in my line of work, I have come to appreciate what I have.  The trip did not work out the way I planned, but I have gained some new friends in a foreign country and experienced things that I will always remember fondly.


Here I am being attacked by some Russian hooligans at the lake




As you can see I manage to hold my own against these hooligans 



Yeah, but what happened to the third one?

Christian

[jb]

Thoughts on JB, That was splendid of JB to help you as he did.  He is a fine citizen.

I generally don't have to pay so much to have people say nice things about me.  Thanks for the kind words, Gator,,, the check is in the mail.   

What I did for Bear was not a big deal for me, but it was important for him at that time.  He got cross threaded with his bank,,,sh it happens,,, and needed a little "tide me over" help.  I'm happy to report the debt has since been repaid.   I've had several conversations with the Bear after his return, (he's now on my phone's "Speed-Dial"); I therefore know a bit more about what happened in Tver than he is willing to lay out here.  I don't blame him for playing this close to the vest.   Actually, I think I advised him not to file a trip report, lest he get some flak from the "Rah Rah Cheerleaders"...   Everybody likes to pick apart things when they go amiss, and as usual,,, they get it wrong.

Having been around quite a few Russians for a very long number of years, and even married to one for a number of years, I think I can say it is absolutely true that if a Russian likes you, there will be no doubt in your mind about it.  Russians are among the most transparent people in the world.  They wear their emotions on their sleeves.  I view this as a good quality and an enduring testament to the goodness of the Russian people.  I love this about Russians.

What I find reprehensible in lady X's attitude is stringing a guy along after she had determined that she was not interested in a relationship with him.  She should have had the decency to cut it off after the 2nd date, thereby allowing Bear to meet other women at Richard's agency who might have had some interest in him as a "husband possible".  As it turned out, Bear blew his entire vacation wad on a girl who was interested only in a paid-for-by-somebody-else trip to Moscow and St. Pete.    Shame on her.  The fact that her family liked Bear is entirely incidental to the story.  Not only did she screw the Bear, (figuratively), she also screwed some other nice Tver woman by not letting them meet a truly nice man while he was in town.   Double shame on her.

Bear is being very adult about all this, he's taken his lumps like a man.  I just hope he has the good sense to be more in control in the future.  There was no need for a 3rd date, she had made her choice already and had alluded this to the agency "terp", as I understood things.   I can understand a girl being picky about who she wants to marry, but does the term "Pro Dater" come to mind?  Richard needs to clear the roster of this one.

Good luck to you in the future, Bear, I'm sure this will not be your last foray into the world of RWs.

[KenC]

Bear,
I really enjoyed your report and I too am sorry that things weren't as you hoped.  Everyone deserves a partner that is crazy in love with them and you did the right thing to move on.  Why didn't you move on part way through your trip?  I am sure Richard could have introduced you to some other ladies.

I look at the similarities between your trip and my first trip.  I too was charged up with seeing Russia as well as meeting Lena.  But I also considered the possibility that Lena and I could just be friends, so I scheduled to meet other women while I was there.  I think we sometimes think too hard about what WMVM or "write none meet many" means.  It shouldn't be an audition for the position of "wife" but as a method for a young single stud muffin (that be you) to be introduced to many fine RW.  Where it goes from there is anyone's guess.  I would venture to guess that you learn more about each other in the first 5 mins face to face than you would in a month of letter exchange. 

I also realise that you are not in a position to take many trips like some of our members, so think about this for a moment.  If you had met many women on this last trip would you be any better off today?  Quite possibly.  Just something to think about.
All the best to you.
KenC

[KenC]

jb,
You gotta know most of us here love ya!  Deal with it!
KenC

[tim 360]

Hey notsocrazyBear,

Nice trip report and thanks for posting it.  I think you have a great attitude about this, Cheers, tim360

[ScottinCrimea]

This is a great example of a good TR that provided just enough details without going overboard (though I would have liked to hear more about his impressions of everyday things).  He may have done some things wrong in the opinions of some, but no one blasted him for it.  Some helpful suggestions have been offered and he has considered them and responded.  This is what the Trip Report section is all about.

[Gator]

JB,

Thanks for the clarification.  Coming from you and considering your relationship with the Bear, I have no doubt as to its accuracy. 

If Russians are so transparent, why do so many people get screwed in business deals?  One party is either stupid or the other is deceptive.

 

Bear,

You are a good man.  It is too early to make your next plans, but you could go to Ukraine next and spend 3 days each in Kiev and two smaller cities.  In each city it would be possible to balance your time without embarrassment between two women with whom you had communicated long enough to get some feeling about her values, goals and interests.  You have plenty of time to think about it.

Ukraine does not have highlights equal to St. Piter.  Yet, I have had delightful experiences with the people from the smaller cities.

Mir,

I think Moscow brings out the worse in people that bump into each other as strangers.  Yet if a Muscovite knows you, they will do anything for you - much more hospitable than Americans.  One of my woman's dear friends and her husband joined us for dinner last night.  He speaks no English, but has invited me to his 19th C banya club.  This is more than a round of golf.

[Simoni]

Next time please meet more than one woman.  This is time consuming if you are playing tourist; however, in finding a woman who really interests you, I  subscribe to the law that "More is Better".  

I think we sometimes think too hard about what WMVM or "write none meet many" means.  It shouldn't be an audition for the position of "wife" but as a method for a young single stud muffin (that be you) to be introduced to many fine RW. 

Yes, that was what I meant when I recommended Bear do this. 

Personally, I tried many if not all approaches, but found Marina by changing my method to simply going to one city and meeting a number of girls.   I met Marina, and got to know her later through emails and subsequent trips.  Write One Visit One should come as a followup, not as a initial meeting, IMHO.  But there are a number of ways to be successful, so to each his own.

Good luck, Bear.  I am confident it work out for you someday.

[jb]

If Russians are so transparent, why do so many people get screwed in business deals?

Business is business,,,, family is family.

[WmGO]

ABear,

Good trip report and thanks for sharing. I agree with Scott that it is just the right amount of info. I also admire you for sticking with who you are and not trying to be anyone else in how you go about this FSUW business......But I just want to make a few observations to help you and others, FWIW (maybe not much):

1. I really think that the first meeting should be kept short - maybe three days, four days max (unless sparks begin to fly on day three or four). I think anything more than one week (assuming sparks) is just too much (even if there are sparks).

2. If the FSUW is taking a shining to you, she should be holding your arm by day two (3 max) while you are walking around, get at least a small kiss when you take her home the evening of day two, and hand holding by day 3 (4 at the latest) at which time you should be receiving a knock your socks off good night kiss.........now all of that is off when you are dealing with a very shy and inexperienced FSUwoman (and there are a lot of them in FSU that have never had a real boyfriend or dated more than one man in their whole life even being in their late 20s).

But even in the case of the shy lady, after a few days it will be very obvious if they are interested - and you having traveled all the way over there SHOULD and MUST ASK THEM: "Svetlana, I am really enjoying your company these past 2 (3) days, how do you feel about me?"  Even the women who are pro daters (usually) will answer honestly - they will answer directly that they do/do not have feelings for you (bearing in mind there physical actions will follow the above pattern if they do - and most pro daters avoid physical affection).

3. Another reality: despite my comments about 2, 3, 4 days, the vast majority of FSUW will make a decision about the WM in either minutes or hours, and probably 89% by the end of the first day. Day two and pretty much you are either in their heart growing like a little seed, or their mind is made up that you are not the man, or their mind is still open and the next day or two or three (max) will decide the issue as far as they are concerned (this is all assuming the woman's bona fides).

4. #3 is why WMVM or WFVF or WMVF or WNVF or WNVM is the best strategy: the whole endeavour can be over in MINUTES!! or HOURS!! ***And it usually is***!!  And it cuts both ways.

5. Given the above realities and your personal style, perhaps the WFVF or WMVF strategy is best for you. I think Gator gave some good advice along those lines: since you have seen Russia, next time meet a lady or two in Kiev (preferably trained in from outside Kiev) and then one or two each in two other cities.

Good luck ABear.

Have to add :

6. Not only *must* the WM directly ask the FSUW by day two or three how the woman feels about them, he *must* be prepred to cut off the meetings/dating when he sees/feels that the woman has no romantic interest in him. The man must be mentally perpared to do this and have back up plans. It is just too far and too expensive and the emotions are too serious to do anything less.........FWIW.

[Shadow]

Well Crazy Bear I fully agree with and understand your report.

I even think that not so long before Crazy Bear, the lady met a man that she was interested in. 6-year olds do not learn such behvior as putting hand together by TV, it was a showing of something he had witnessed before, and what he would have liked to be.

But if it is not meant to be it is not. And I agree with jb that when Russians like you there is nothing that will hold them back, not even the ones that are shy. Good that you have your standards and caught on, I hope that you continue your ways.
And of course that some day there will be a Mrs Bear reported here. Until then, stay grumpy to catch the bad guys.

[Serebro]

Serebro,
Are you saying this because Bear is a policeman and you expect him to behave like Russia's policemen? 

to behave like Russian policemen?!!!!!My father worked for 25 years in Russian police, are you trying to persuade me that my father was a bastard?

Or do you really find the rest of us morally corrupt?  Or perhaps the rest of us are fine and Bear is just "head and shoulders" above us?

I don't find the rest morally corrupt, but after reading your trips reports I should say that if most of your trip reports had been contributed to a local newspaper they would have had a great( not in a positive way) effect.

[timothe]

Did she? Why you call it a better life for her if she is not attracted to the man? She is just being honest to him signaling that she is not the woman who could make Bear happy.

She wasn't being honest with him.  She held him hostage for the entire trip and didn't respect his time or his money when she could have simply said he wasn't the right man for her.  I'm not saying she was the villian here either, because there are two sides to every story.  But it's obvious to me that Bear is a nice guy and would probably be good husband material for some lucky gal.  (unlike some of the other clowns we've been seeing on the boards lately)  Therefore, it is her loss that she couldn't get past the physical attraction to see what's in this guy's heart.

As a mature woman Lily, you know that the physical loveliness of a person is the first quality to leave a person.  A good woman with a small number of choices in life should see beyond the physical loveliness.  Bear will be just fine, but this woman might have missed the best thing that could have happened to her...ever.  And she'll likely remember it. 

[acrzybear]

Good comments all

I will address some of the issues you have raised;

Someone asked why I didn't cut things off after the 2nd or 3rd meeting and there are several reasons for that, I believed I arrived on Friday morning and met X that evening, when we met the next day I was surprised to see that she had her son with her.  Within 5 minutes we were goofing around in the restaurant and she (X) made a comment that he is usually quiet around strangers. IT seems that every 3rd or 4th day something would happen where I thought we might be making a little bit of progress, but when she would not hold hands after the first week that pesky little voice in my head kept reminding me of what JB and others OMB's stated about if a RW likes you. there will be no doubt in your mind.    Yes I stayed with X longer then I should have in hopes that she was just shy, but I met her family and have some fond memories of starting a fire on a freezing Russian lake and enjoying the moment of a true family get together and getting accosted some young hooligans several of the men brought out their guitars and everyone started singing old Russian folk songs.  

  I visited Red Square, and Peter the Greats' Winter Castle, I rode on a Russian train, I saw the skyline of Moscow, I took route taxis around Tver, I saw a 500 year old monastery outside of Tver.  Would it have been better if X was "into" me, yes it would but as I stated I have caught a glimpse of something and I like it.  

  I returned to work and everyone wanted to know how Russia was and if I bought them any souvenirs (no I didn't, I believe you either need to visit a country to get your own or they should be a gift from the person visiting the country), that just reminded me of my good fortune in that I have the financial means (albeit limited) to experience these things.  Although it did not work out with X, my main goal was accomplished and that was to experience Mother Russia and in an odd way through X I did just that.

  If I meet another lady from Russia/Ukraine/Timbuktu/Mars/BFE I will have pleasent memories from that as well.  As far as X goes, perhaps she used me, but a person can only be used if they allow it.  I had a great time and I will be going back to Russia.


  As far as the Russian policeman comment, are they corrupt?  By Western standards perhaps, but one thing I learned in Russia is that Western standards do not apply.  I spent significant time with a police Major (vodka was involved and he cooked borscht for me) and we talked about how things are different between our countries and some of the similarities as well (not too many).  Russia has it's own way of doing things that are mind boggling to me, but I was a guest and had to learn to go with the flow and adapt.  You cannot judge a police officer by your standards when you are in a foreign country, the police represent the values of the society they serve. As long as society stays the same so will the police.

  I was talking to one of Richards interpeters and she made an interesting observation about the difference between the police in Russia and the United States, she said "Russian police protect the interests of the government and American police protect interests of the people"- I think that sums it up perfectly.

  

 

[LiveFromUkraine]

Great trip report Bear.  It sounds like you had a great time. 


Any plans on when you may go back for round two? 


Thomas

[acrzybear]

Not sure at this point, perhaps in May/June so I can celebrate my birthday Russian style!!   

[LiveFromUkraine]

Not sure at this point, perhaps in May/June so I can celebrate my birthday Russian style!!   

Nice, that should be enough time to rest your liver.  It will need the rest. 


Thomas

[acrzybear]

Yeah, but what happened to the third one?

Christian

I'll never tell

Actually he's behind me pulling on my belt

[Gator]

Crazy Bear,

That must have been interesting to chat with your Russian counterpart.  Experiences on these trips go far beyond meeting women.  I forgot who wrote it, but it went something like:  If you avoid the food, fear the religion, ignore the people,  and dismiss the culture, you may as well stay home.


Serebro,

We are on a different wavelength.  Note to self:  use smileys.

[Phil dAmore]

Touching would earn a slap in my experience!  

... In the U.S.?  If one is lucky that is all that they would get.... A swift kick in the seeds is just as likely a possibility...