Newt or Mitt VS Obama. Can either of 'em beat him?

[Faux Pas]

Small...hmmm...according to the New York Times, the crowd was estimated at 30,000.  Every other source I've seen refers to "many thousands" or "tens of thousands."  It might not match the size of the Moscow demonstration against Putin, but you would never have believed a couple of years ago that anything like this would ever be possible.
 
The NYT also says that Ambassador Stevens was asphyxiated in the fire - not a word about the supposed rape and dragging behind a car which a couple of posters here seem to relish bringing up.  And, from the Daily Mail in London:
 

Thanks for proving my earlier point.

"The doctor who treated him said he died of severe asphyxiation, which caused stomach bleeding and that Mr Stevens had no other injuries."
 
I'm assuming that by now a full autopsy must have been performed in the USA.  Have the results been released?

Geeze, you mean "all the news that's fit to print"  and your beacon of light and truth didn't inform you? What a pity 

[Daveman]

The US State Dept is running ads on Pakistani TV denouncing the Youtube video that supposedly aroused demonstrations against America..
 
http://abcnews.go.com/International/deadly-anti-us-riots-pakistan-obamas-ad-denouncing/story?id=17291751
 
Follow the logic please.  Does this not make it appear as if the administration is validating that the mob had a legitimate excuse for the attacks?   If so, does that not indirectly exonerate the terrorists who perpetrated the deadly attacks. 
 
I know, I know.  We want to be loved, not hated and not feared.   In that regard, what part of "Death to America" does the administration not understand.   
 
I recognize that the mob does not represent the sentiment of the moderate Muslims.  Nevertheless, let us see the stance and actions taken by the various Muslim governments (Libya, Egypt, Pakistan, etc.) over the next few days.

Ahhhhhh.... Allah hu akbar!!!  more stupid sh*t in the name of "god" and some dead guy from centuries ago...   

[GQBlues]

...
Geeze, you mean "all the news that's fit to print"  and your beacon of light and truth didn't inform you? What a pity  ...

For the inquisive minds...the genesis (& trail) of the initial reporting, according to Snopes was Libyan newsreport quoting (allegedly) AFP (Agence France Presse) which are now strongly denying/refuting the story saying they were *misquoted*...

http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/stevens.asp

In light of some of the more non-convention news or source information about what really happened (that mainly means people who are actually there during that night and saw what happened - NOTE: this is important), it appears that Stevens died of asphyxiation and some Libyan nationals tried to help him as shown on the video below. Watching the vid, it appears as though they dragged his body and celebrated his death. From my POV, it seems as though they tried to rescue him and likely saw signs that he's alive and we're *happy* to know there's a chance to revive him...Sandro speaks Arabic, maybe he can verify the actual event from the vid.

Watch it and you be the judge..

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1991481/pg1

The underlying lesson here is...no knee jerk reactions, you can't solely rely on information given by mainstream media without doing your due diligence, and most importantly - you can't possibly know better about any event taking place in a country other than your own by virtue of reading websites and online news reporting, than the people who actually live there everyday....take note, please.

[Maxx2]

I seem to remember when Quadaffi died both GQ and Gator thought it was great. It seems to me that Quadaffi (spelling I know) should have been left be, no Nato airstrikes supporting the rebels. Maybe the same should have been done with Saddam and now with Syria? Maybe our foreign policy is all screwed up? Not just Obama's but also with the neo-con "opposition". Is it really opposition if they support most of what Obama has done over there? Just an argument between a few degrees of difference. IMO we should get the hell out of there. Ron Paul is right.

[Anotherkiwi]

...according to the New York Times,...
 
The NYT...

Thanks for proving my earlier point.

Geeze, you mean "all the news that's fit to print"  and your beacon of light and truth didn't inform you? What a pity 

FP, what are you talking about?  Is the New York Times yet another on your list of newspapers that aren't worth the (cyber)paper they're printed on?  Is there any news organisation that you have any time for, or do you only ever believe something if you see it with your own eyes?  I'm as sceptical as most but, from this distance, I have to trust that at least some reported news is accurate.

[Anotherkiwi]

Sodomized? He not only was raped and sodomized, they dragged his body down the street. His limo was ambushed coming back to the embassy/consulate. Mainstream media is playing it down because....

For the inquisive minds...the genesis (& trail) of the initial reporting, according to Snopes was Libyan newsreport quoting (allegedly) AFP (Agence France Presse) which are now strongly denying/refuting the story saying they were *misquoted*...

http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/stevens.asp

In light of some of the more non-convention news or source information about what really happened (that mainly means people who are actually there during that night and saw what happened - NOTE: this is important), it appears that Stevens died of asphyxiation and some Libyan nationals tried to help him as shown on the video below. Watching the vid, it appears as though they dragged his body and celebrated his death. From my POV, it seems as though they tried to rescue him and likely saw signs that he's alive and we're *happy* to know there's a chance to revive him...Sandro speaks Arabic, maybe he can verify the actual event from the vid.

Watch it and you be the judge..

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1991481/pg1

The underlying lesson here is...no knee jerk reactions, you can't solely rely on information given by mainstream media without doing your due diligence, and most importantly - you can't possibly know better about any event taking place in a country other than your own by virtue of reading websites and online news reporting, than the people who actually live there everyday....take note, please.

Thank you for having the decency to admit that your original knee-jerk reaction was wrong.
 
As for the last part - yes, I'll keep out of American politics...and be glad that, according to Faux Pas and others, I won't be there when the country implodes.

[GQBlues]

I seem to remember when Quadaffi died both GQ and Gator thought it was great...

really?!? How'd you know I had the DVD set complete with alternate endings?

[GQBlues]

 
Thank you for having the decency to admit that your original knee-jerk reaction was wrong.

Lol. Glad to hear you can sleep better at nights now. Happy to indulge.
 

As for the last part - yes, I'll keep out of American politics...and be glad that, according to Faux Pas and others, I won't be there when the country implodes.

Ahh the most important lesson of all. It's good to know you show signs of learning however slight. As for the silly implosion, there's likely a much better chance the US will continue to lead and indulge the world with innovation to enhance the global society's lives as even the neediest of our poor are still far better equip than the most. But I'm certain you already know that.

[Faux Pas]

 
FP, what are you talking about?  Is the New York Times yet another on your list of newspapers that aren't worth the (cyber)paper they're printed on?  Is there any news organisation that you have any time for, or do you only ever believe something if you see it with your own eyes?  I'm as sceptical as most but, from this distance, I have to trust that at least some reported news is accurate.

The NYT is exactly the mainstream media I have been referring to. They have repeatedly carried Barry's water and white-washed everything about him. You really should keep your mouth shut when you haven't a clue of what you speak. First the Huffington Post and now the New York Times? I don't really care Kiwi where you get your news from but, when you attempt to approach me in your condescending manner as if you actually know something, maybe you should actually know something? 

[Anotherkiwi]

The NYT is exactly the mainstream media I have been referring to. They have repeatedly carried Barry's water and white-washed everything about him. You really should keep your mouth shut when you haven't a clue of what you speak. First the Huffington Post and now the New York Times? I don't really care Kiwi where you get your news from but, when you attempt to approach me in your condescending manner as if you actually know something, maybe you should actually know something? 

This cuts both ways, Faux Pas - if you can't be bothered reading what I actually wrote (yet again) then I really do wonder how you can justify your condescension towards me.  My reference was solely about the death of Ambassador Stevens, nothing else.  How the New York Times, Huffington Post, CNN, the Disney Channel or ANY other media reported what President Obama was doing at the time has absolutely no relevance to what I wrote.  Why can't you understand that?

[Anotherkiwi]

...As for the silly implosion, there's likely a much better chance the US will continue to lead and indulge the world with innovation to enhance the global society's lives as even the neediest of our poor are still far better equip than the most. But I'm certain you already know that.

I do, so long as you're talking about items rather more meaningful than the iPhone5, but it appears that others on here don't share your confidence.

[GQBlues]

I do, so long as you're talking about items rather more meaningful than the iPhone5, but it appears that others on here don't share your confidence.

Congratulations! Did you get the black or the white one?  But ok, maybe the holographic imaging won't be around until iP8, but we can't spoil a whole lot of you in such a short time now, can we?

So for something more *meaningful*, Curiosity just landed and likely it'll be a short time now before it can start sending info back to feed the global scientific community appetite again - as HUBBLE is/has been doing at this time.

So for now, how about the very method you use to deliver your message in this venue for starters?

BTW...I forgot to thank you for introducing the world to your KIWI fruit. Thanks, man...

[Daveman]

Guys and Gals,


Point 1: this is an international forum and all members are invited to post opinions on any topic - including this one.


Point 2: some of the reasons political threads are generally unwelcome at RWD are that:
    A) politics is not the focus of the forum
    B) they inevitably degenerate into name calling and personal attacks,  and
    C) the animosities usually spill into other areas


Point 3: keep it clean and to the issues.  Any post, regardless of how relevant or cleverly worded which contains an insult will not be edited -- it will be deleted -- so don't bother wasting your time or ours.. 


Point 4: relax

[GQBlues]

Interesting the State Dept. admonishes CNN for circulating, consequently questioning, Stevens' journal where it is implied that he had noted (unpublished yet at this time) warnings about a pending terror threat that the State Department didn't provide proper security personnel for leading up the that fateful night.

"We think the public had a right to know what CNN had learned from multiple sources about the fears and warnings of a terror threat before the Benghazi attack which are now raising questions about why the State Department didn't do more to protect Ambassador Stevens and other U.S. personnel," CNN said in a written statement emailed to Reuters.


"Perhaps the real question here is why the State Department is now attacking the messenger," CNN said in the statement.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/49136130/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa

WOW I say...testy exchange between CNN and the State Department? Odder still, the article appearing on MSNBC News? What will NYT write about regarding this revelation with 40 days left before the election?
 

[Anotherkiwi]

Congratulations! Did you get the black or the white one? 

I'm an old-fashioned kind of guy - I actually use my phone to make phone calls, and nothing else!  From home to work is 15 or 20 minutes, and I'm sitting in front of a computer all day, so I don't need to worry about mobile data or taking photos (my phone does have a camera, but I carry an actual camera with me all the time anyway).
 
 

So for something more *meaningful*, Curiosity just landed and likely it'll be a short time now before it can start sending info back to feed the global scientific community appetite again - as HUBBLE is/has been doing at this time.

Great - I'm looking forward to seeing the images.  I'm in awe of by how much Spirit and Opportunity have outlived their design life - maybe Curiosity will do the same.

So for now, how about the very method you use to deliver your message in this venue for starters?

You mean the computer (the Greek Antikythera from 2,000 years ago is probably the first, but we'll give the credit for the electronic version to the team at Sperry Rand which built ENIAC) or the "world-wide web" (invented by Englishman Sir Tim Berners-Lee, who was honoured at the opening Ceremony of the Olympic Games)? 

BTW...I forgot to thank you for introducing the world to your KIWI fruit. Thanks, man...

Well, if the Chinese couldn't be bothered...    Glad you like them.

[GQBlues]

...I'm an old-fashioned kind of guy - I actually use my phone to make phone calls, and nothing else!  From home to work is 15 or 20 minutes, and I'm sitting in front of a computer all day, so I don't need to worry about mobile data or taking photos (my phone does have a camera, but I carry an actual camera with me all the time anyway).

No problem with that at all....my Mumski's VCR console still shows that silly flashing 12:00. Does your mobile still sport those 3 lbs battery and comes with a double-shoulder strap? 
 
 

...Great - I'm looking forward to seeing the images.  I'm in awe of by how much Spirit and Opportunity have outlived their design life - maybe Curiosity will do the same...

I do too...fascinating stuff really..
 

..You mean the computer (the Greek Antikythera from 2,000 years ago is probably the first,

Man, you are an old-fashioned kind of man...2,000 years ago...well considering the DNA trail we now understand, then my money rest on the Mesopothamias (<3000 BC) to be the first to invent a non-programmable calculating device, the Abacus...

...but we'll give the credit for the electronic version to the team at Sperry Rand which built ENIAC)

Not so fast, and not that I was referring to functional modern programmable computers to begin with anyway...but FWIW, had I been, then I'd put my money to any of the 3: Turing, Zuse and/or Babbage.

But nope, had you read my post correctly and not exercised knee-jerk reaction  , I actually said *method to deliver your message*. I was more referring to the super information highway, ARPANET - point-to-point communication or better known as Advanced Research Projects Agency Network, or simply the Internet; without which...

...but  or the "world-wide web" (invented by Englishman Sir Tim Berners-Lee, who was honoured at the opening Ceremony of the Olympic Games)?

...there never would've been such a celebration. (btw - congrats to the UK/London for a wonderful Olympics!)
 

..Well, if the Chinese couldn't be bothered...    Glad you like them...

Yes I do...but I still like them peeled.

[Anotherkiwi]

No problem with that at all....my Mumski's VCR console still shows that silly flashing 12:00. Does your mobile still sport those 3 lbs battery and comes with a double-shoulder strap? 

No, but I did have one of them when they first came out (or, to be precise, my office bought one which I used when away on business).  Eight hours to charge...twenty minutes talk time (if you were lucky)...those were the days! 
 

Man, you are an old-fashioned kind of man...2,000 years ago...well considering the DNA trail we now understand, then my money rest on the Mesopothamias (<3000 BC) to be the first to invent a non-programmable calculating device, the Abacus...

Not so fast, and not that I was referring to functional modern programmable computers to begin with anyway...but FWIW, had I been, then I'd put my money to any of the 3: Turing, Zuse and/or Babbage.

Didn't the Chinese invent a version of the abacus as well?  I was actually going to put Babbage, but thought I'd better check first. 

But nope, had you read my post correctly and not exercised knee-jerk reaction  , I actually said *method to deliver your message*. I was more referring to the super information highway, ARPANET - point-to-point communication or better known as Advanced Research Projects Agency Network, or simply the Internet; without which...

...there never would've been such a celebration. (btw - congrats to the UK/London for a wonderful Olympics!)

I had read it correctly, but I thought I'd chuck in the computer references just in case. 
 

Yes I do...but I still like them peeled.

Why?  The skin is the best part!  Unless, of course, you're allergic to furballs and such-like. 

[Maxx2]

really?!? How'd you know I had the DVD set complete with alternate endings?

It's about knowing the saying "The better the devil you do know than the one you don't"
Also at that time Nato was backing radical elements of Al Qaeda in Libya (they are in Syria now). Quadiffi's big sin to the West was not him being a despot but it was rather his working with the African union to establish their own banking system/currency and bypass IMF loans.
 
 

[GQBlues]

It's about knowing the saying "The better the devil you do know than the one you don't" Also at that time Nato was backing radical elements of Al Qaeda in Libya (they are in Syria now). Quadiffi's big sin to the West was not him being a despot but it was rather his working with the African union to establish their own banking system/currency and bypass IMF loans.

Maxx ftr, I couldn't care less about Qaddafi - dead or alive really. If the Libyan population deemed him an unwanted element in their lives and society, that's their call..

As for anymore western (un)warranted -covert- political relations, I resigned any other interest beyond the Balkan's KLA/Milosevic affair of the 1990s since they haven't even completed full investigation of the extent of participation by our own government and our overly self-righteous neighbors across the pond (especially Germany) over who really armed the terrorist organization formerly known as the Kosovo Liberation Army that provoked the butchering of the Albanians. Just like what happened in Rwanda.

http://www.matthiaskuentzel.de/contents/germany-and-the-kosovo

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Liberation_Army

http://intelnews.org/about/latest-analysis/content/analysis001/

http://www.pacificfreepress.com/opinion/7888-natos-monster-in-kosovo.html

"..That's rather rich coming from a politician who held office during the systematic looting of Albania's impoverished people during the "economic liberalization" of the 1990s.

At the time, Berisha's Democratic Party government urged Albanians to invest in dodgy pyramid funds, massive Ponzi schemes that were little more than fronts for drug money laundering and arms trafficking.

More than a decade ago, Global Research analyst Michel Chossudovsky documented how the largest fund, "VEFA Holdings had been set up by the Guegue 'families' of Northern Albania with the support of Western banking interests," even though the fund "was under investigation in Italy in 1997 for its ties to the Mafia which allegedly used VEFA to launder large amounts of dirty money."

By 1997, two-thirds of the Albanian population who believed fairy tales of capitalist prosperity spun by their kleptocratic leaders and the IMF, lost some $1.2 billion to the well-connected fraudsters. When the full extent of the crisis reached critical mass, it sparked an armed revolt that was only suppressed after the UN Security Council deployed some 7,000 NATO troops that occupied the country; more than 2,000 people were killed...."

I often wondered how Ms Albright gets to sleep at nights these days...
 

[GQBlues]

Back to the gist of the thread...
 
Beyond the presidential election, this coming November affords each of you to also vote for your State's respective "Proposition Ballot' voting. There's a few interesting proposition for California this time around. One, for example, is our Governor's proposal to raise out SITs and one to raise our State's sales tax to offset the huge budget deficit our State is sitting on...
 
 
But what I'm very interested in is Proposition 32: The Paycheck Protection Initiative (2012). In short, the proposition affords the state citizenry to 'vote' yeah/nay to ban political campaign donors both from the Corporate and Union organization in support of their respective politicians, LOL. It is so interesting how much support money actually goes into these propositions. Monies used for advertising to creatively con the unsuspecting voting public by offering strategically disguised arguments from both sides of the aisle.
 
In light of the current state of affairs, both statewide and nationally this year, I'll just simply look at who supports these respective proposition and vote accordingly. Here's an in depth look at our Prop. 32:
 
http://www.ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/California_Proposition_32,_the_%22Paycheck_Protection%22_Initiative_(2012)
 
Donors in support of the proposition:
 
As of September 17, 2012, the "yes" campaign has raised about $8.8 million.^[13][14]
These are the $50,000 and over donors to the "yes" campaign as of September 17, 2012:

Donor Amount
American Future Fund	$4,080,000
Charles Munger, Jr.	$992,204
Thomas M. Siebel	$500,000
William Bloomfield, Jr.	$300,000
Larry Smith	$260,701
Jerry Perenchio	$250,000
Citizen Power Campaign	$230,317
B. Wayne Hughes	$200,000
William Oberndorf	$150,000
Protect Prop 13 (HJTA)	$125,000
Lincoln Club of Orange County	$110,000
Robert J. Oster	$101,000
Frank E. Baxter	$100,000
Timothy C. Draper	$100,000
William L. Edwards	$100,000
Howard F. Ahmanson	$50,000
Charles B. Johnson	$50,000
Franklin P. Johnson, Jr.	$50,000
Nicoletta Holdings Company	$50,000
Richard J. Riordan	$50,000
Steven A. Laub	$50,000

 
Those who opposes:
 
This is a list of the $100,000 and over donors to the "no" campaign as of September 17, 2012:^[23]

Donor Amount
California Teachers Association	$16,452,509
SEIU/California State Council of Service Employees	$6,788,969
California Professional Firefighters	$2,601,580
AFSCME	$1,634,725
California Labor Federation (AFL-CIO/Change to Win)	$1,372,431
Peace Officers Research Association of California PAC	$1,276,846
California School Employees Association	$1,050,000
California Faculty Association	$1,027,471
California/American Federation of Teachers	$800,000
International Association of Firefighters	$500,000
Professional Engineers in California Government	$500,000
Thomas Steyer	$500,000
California Statewide Law Enforcement Association	$426,552
California State Pipe Trades Council	$250,000
Los Angeles Police Protective League's Public Safety First PAC	$250,000
Peace Officers Research Association	$250,000
Million More Voters (AFL-CIO)	$245,516
Northern California District Council of Laborers' Issues	$150,000
State Building and Construction Trades Council of California	$129,718
United Transportation Union	$105,000
San Bernardino County Safety Employees' Benefit Association	$100,000
John Perez Ballot Measure Committee	$100,000
United Domestic Workers of America	$100,000
Union of American Physicians & Dentists	$100,000
California Association of Psychiatric Technicians	$100,000

 
...LOL! nothing but the Unions. They are out-spending supporters almost 5:1. Hhhmmmm. $8.8 million vs $ 37.6 million. Unbelievable!

[Gator]

I earlier expressed my displeasure with how the administartion is indirectly exonerating terrorism by claiming the demonstrations in Libya, Egypt, etc. were in response to the anti-Muslim video.   The administration wants to be loved in the Middle East, and not be viewed as a strong force.

While some may be critical of the State Department not heeding warning signs about the Benghazi attack, keep in mind that the Department relies upon its local personnel to assess the situation.  The Ambassador is the decision maker.  He has access to all the intelligence and he thought the situation was secure enough to travel to the weakly defended consulate.  He was wrong, and he paid with his life.

[Gator]

With regard to wanting to be loved in the Middle East, there is a recent rumor that Obama may consider releasing the blind sheik who plotted the  1993 bombings of the WTC.  This rumor is mentioned by a conservative group:    http://www.secureamericanow.org/pdfs/SAN-09-21-12-RELEASE-TAKE-A-STAND.pdf
 
Egypt's new leader had promised to seek the release of the sheik.
   http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/30/world/middleeast/morsi-promises-to-work-for-release-of-omar-abdel-rahman.html?ref=omarabdelrahman
 
Surely this will not happen. 

[Anotherkiwi]

With regard to wanting to be loved in the Middle East, there is a recent rumor that Obama may consider releasing the blind sheik who plotted the  1993 bombings of the WTC.  This rumor is mentioned by a conservative group:    http://www.secureamericanow.org/pdfs/SAN-09-21-12-RELEASE-TAKE-A-STAND.pdf
 
Egypt's new leader had promised to seek the release of the sheik.
   http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/30/world/middleeast/morsi-promises-to-work-for-release-of-omar-abdel-rahman.html?ref=omarabdelrahman
 
Surely this will not happen.

Could be more than a rumour - it even made our main television news a couple of days ago.

[BC]

All funny stuff...

The internet is a 'wild west' of information and disinformation.

Seems this story first appeared 9/18 at:

http://www.redstate.com/2012/09/18/obama-negotiating-release-of-omar-abdel-rahman/

based largely on a 9/12 blog at:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/service-blind-sheikh_652250.html?nopager=1

based largely on a 6/21 blog at:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/06/21/member-of-egyptian-terror-group-goes-to-washington.html

It all goes semi mainstream with an opinion on WSJ about 9 hours ago.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444358804578014531735055120.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Bottom line there is absolutely nothing official at all about any of this.  It is pure conjecture and extrapolation aimed at those that will not do the research necessary to discern fact from fiction.

Otherwise this 'story' has been largely ignored, but of course pundits will latch on any straws they can.

[BC]

About 70% of GDP is driven by consumer spending.

During the last decade, prior to the economic crisis, much of consumer spending was driven by consumer credit.

After most recessions, due to large amounts of money pumped into the economy, GDP growth rebounded fairly quickly (within 1 or 2 years).  Consumer spending rose and therefore employment followed.

This time around it seems that consumers are rather wary to use their credit cards and other financial debt instruments, instead concentrating on paying back what they owe and trying more to live within their means.

Credit card balances dropped to $672 billion, the lowest level since 2002. This represents a decrease of 22.4 percent from their peak of $866 billion which took place in the fourth quarter of 2008. Credit card delinquencies of 10.9 percent are at their lowest level since 2008.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/moneybuilder/2012/09/14/big-decline-in-credit-card-debt/

Considering the effect of consumer spending and growth, I've seen some estimates that an overwhelming portion of growth (typically 5%) was due to the desire of consumers to use credit.. and that excluding credit, growth would be just about what it is today (around 2%) despite the Fed dumping billions into the financial system.

Remember that growth was heated by the housing boom.  Folks were buying cars and all kinds of things with loans based on their equity at high home values..

So which came first...  the chicken or the egg?  Is high unemployment and slower growth caused by folks finally starting to live within their means or is growth and consumers not using credit for new purchases hampered by unemployment?