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Author Topic: Prospects for Crimea return  (Read 42064 times)

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Offline msmob

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Re: Prospects for Crimea return
« Reply #100 on: August 28, 2017, 09:38:14 PM »
Come on, his best line was calling you a pommie git a few moons ago.

Wasn't that Wallm(art)?  .. ( Minus the 'git' ? ) :)
« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 10:03:08 PM by msmob »

Offline JayH

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Re: Prospects for Crimea return
« Reply #101 on: September 25, 2017, 09:03:57 PM »
For some here that  think the Russian invasion of Ukraine is no big deal -- you need to read.
For those that do care about Ukraine -this is another sickening report of the reality.

"The report stresses that the violations since annexation have been committed by Russian state agents, and specifically mentions “arbitrary arrests and detentions, enforced disappearances, ill-treatment and torture, and at least one extra-judicial execution”.

UN report on grave rights violations demolishes all Russia’s lies about occupied Crimea

The damning UN Human Rights Office report on “multiple and grave violations” in Russian-occupied Crimea published on September 25 is not just important in documenting a sharp deterioration in human rights since Russia’s invasion and annexation.  It also spells out on virtually every page that Russia is an occupying state, and that its application of Russian legislation is in serious breach of international law, particularly the Fourth Geneva Convention.


http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1506389950
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline msmob

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Re: NO Prospects for Crimea return - but anyway
« Reply #102 on: September 26, 2017, 01:03:44 AM »




UN report on grave rights violations demolishes all Russia’s lies about occupied Crimea


Here is the link to the actual report:

http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/UA/Crimea2014_2017_EN.pdf

Did you READ, it JayH ?

It is not all 'good' for Kyiv and 'bad' for Moscow ..

19/

"The right of the Crimean population to an adequate standard of living has been
affected by measures taken by Ukrainian authorities or implemented on mainland Ukraine
,
including the interruption of water and energy supplies to the peninsula. Under international
humanitarian law, the Russian Federation as the occupying power is obliged to ensure to
the fullest extent of the means available to it sufficient hygiene and public health standards,
as well as the provision of food and medical care to the population. At the same time, this
does not exonerate Ukraine from its obligations under the International Covenant on
Economic, Social and Cultural Rights not to interfere with the enjoyment of the rights it
enshrines, and from respecting the requirement under international humanitarian law to
ensure that the basic needs of the population continue to be met
under conditions of
occupation."


Bear in mind that the 'authorities' on Crimea ( now Moscow) forbade the UN investigators the freedom to investigate if the statements of those in the reports.


Offline Boethius

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Re: Prospects for Crimea return
« Reply #103 on: September 26, 2017, 07:38:12 AM »
The water should have been cut.  Why should Ukraine be providing Crimea with a precious commodity to subsidize its agriculture?
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline AkMike

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Re: Prospects for Crimea return
« Reply #104 on: September 26, 2017, 07:53:08 AM »
Russia owes lots already for the power and water used before it was shut off. Any utility company world wide would termonate servces if the accounts are in arears.

Offline msmob

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Re: Prospects for Crimea return
« Reply #105 on: September 26, 2017, 01:57:54 PM »
@Boethius and AKMike

I think Kyiv called this one wrong ..the ( 'Hellenic') Greeks supplied power to the 'north' ( eth. Turkish ) part of Cyprus  - for years - unpaid - it is an unrecognised state - only Turkey recognises the 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus'

One day some gas containers that had been washed up - and stored too near a power stn blew up ... By now the 'north ' had it's own power stn and agreed to supply the 'south' while they rebuilt their plant..

One never knows what will come about ....   

The 'rump' Republic of Cyprus - woke up to keeping the dream alive of a settlement and largely  - not entirely - has not allowed development in what was - before the Turkish 'invasion / peace operation' of 1974 areas

That said - the UN brokered a Peace deal / settlement in 2003 - the Annan Plan and the 'Hellenic' Greeks rejected it ( eth Turks accepted) ... ?((



In the early days, the 'south' cut power and the 'north' controlled the sewage plant for the divided capital - Nicosia..so eventually they had to work things through

The report makes it clear that Kyiv has an obligation to the people on the peninsula..  A LOT of UN and European Court of Human Rights 'case law' is based on Cyprus' issues .

By cutting off the water and electricity - Kyiv was 'sort of' saying "We are teaching you a lesson", but at the same time making those who didn't wish to be Russian - suffer, too.

It's a 'moral toughie'..

Please do read the conclusions of the report ..

1/ RF - points a-t (20 points)

2/ UA points a-f ( 6 points)

3 / International Community ( 3 points)

"a) Insist on full cooperation of the Russian Federation with international and
regional monitoring mechanisms, including by granting unrestricted access to
their representatives to Crimea;
b) Remind the Russian Federation and Ukraine to strictly abide by international
human rights law and international humanitarian law in ensuring the protection
of the population of Crimea;
c) Raise cases of human rights violations and abuses in discussions with the Russian
Federation authorities at bilateral and multilateral forums."

Those that think Crimea is coming back, soon should note the 'Cyprus Problem' .. 



 


Offline JayH

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Crimea Return to Ukraine - consequences
« Reply #106 on: December 20, 2017, 03:04:04 PM »

This article deals with  a topic I have commented on in the past .I also believe it will be the catalyst for major change inside Russia -- and further.



Sobchak says civil war to start in Russia if Crimea returned to Ukraine


It's a very difficult question. Under international law, Crimea is Ukrainian. There are people living there, and we must recognize the fact that those living there are cautious about Ukraine. Ukraine itself should recognize this. And we must decide together what we are to do with those 2 million people," Sobchak said.

 http://www.unian.info/politics/2309531-sobchak-says-civil-war-to-start-in-russia-if-crimea-returned-to-ukraine.html

SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline ML

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Re: Prospects for Crimea return
« Reply #107 on: December 20, 2017, 03:11:21 PM »
Ukraine shouldn't take back Crimea, even if offered.
But they should receive very substantial compensation.
A beautiful woman is pleasant to look at, but it is easier to live with a pleasant acting one.

Offline Doll

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Re: Prospects for Crimea return
« Reply #108 on: December 20, 2017, 04:04:57 PM »
1. HA
2. HA
3. HA

Offline JayH

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Re: Prospects for Crimea return
« Reply #109 on: May 05, 2018, 02:22:53 AM »
Joint Forces Operation is off to a good start, and it is using the right language to talk about restoring Russian-occupied territory to Ukraine’s control. Ukraine has the right to assert its sovereignty and to restore its territorial integrity, and with the Joint Forces Operation that started on May 1 it is finding a better path to the liberation of Crimea and Donbas.


RETURNING TERRITORIES OCCUPIED BY RUSSIA TO UKRAINE'S CONTROL


Note that the JFO carefully and correctly names the enemy as both “occupiers” and as “Russian-terrorist troops” – meaning that the enemy is composed of both regular and irregular soldiers of the Russian armed forces. There are no “pro-Russian separatists” and there never have been in eastern Ukraine, except as actors for Russian propaganda television. General Nayev put it plainly: the enemy are soldiers of the Russia Federation.

It is worth quoting his explanation in full: “In fact, the 1st and 2nd Army Corps, created in the so-called ‘DPR’ and ‘LPR,’ are, so to speak, classical Russian units formed by statutes of the Russian Armed Forces. They are subordinate and under the control of the command of the Southern Military District of the Russian Federation. Both corps are part of the 8th Russian Army, from which they receive weapons, ammunition, fuel and lubricants, money, and food. All positions – from the company commander and above – in these formations are staffed with Russian officers ... So, we are dealing with Russian aggression. This is clearly defined in the Law of Ukraine ‘On the peculiarities of the state policy of ensuring the state sovereignty of Ukraine in temporarily occupied territories in Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts.’"

http://radiolemberg.com/ua-articles/ua-allarticles/joint-forces-operation-returning-territories-occupied-by-russia-to-ukraine-s-control
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Online krimster2

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Re: Prospects for Crimea return
« Reply #110 on: May 05, 2018, 06:29:58 AM »
corruption has been institutionalized and built-into Russian culture, from the very day Peter the Great decided not to pay his civil servants, but to instead let each of them figure out a way to pay themselves using their position

this system ONLY works when you have a Peter or Ivan Grozy or... Stalin at the helm
otherwise it becomes free-for-all to see who can grab the most

when Ukrainian oligarchs grab a company, they drain its resources while not paying their employees until the company flounders

when Ukrainian oligarchs grab a country, they do the same...

the only way out for Ukraine is war!
executed under a complete military dictatorship...
that hangs every single oligarch on both sides of the street - near the “Tiplitsa” in Kyiv
and nationalizes their property in the name of the people of Ukraine

and FIGHTS RUSSIA and WINS...

but this will not happen of course...



Offline DaveNY

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Re: Prospects for Crimea return
« Reply #111 on: May 05, 2018, 07:10:03 AM »
There is zero chance Russia will return Crimea to Ukraine. Zero chance. No amount of sanctions or indignation from other countries will force Russia to return Crimea. The only way Ukraine will get Crimea back is if Russia were to break up into other countries or perhaps China claimed part of the Russian Far East and China and Russia went to war.

Online krimster2

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Re: Prospects for Crimea return
« Reply #112 on: May 05, 2018, 08:44:09 AM »
actually, Ukraine never really "had" Crimea in the first place
pre-invasion Victory Day Parade in Sevastopol, Russian/Soviet flags outnumbered Ukrainian flags 20-1
so whose country was it really...

when a foreign invader occupies a big piece of your territory and none of your soldiers/sailors/marines fire a single shot in defense...
whose country is it really...

actual ethnic Ukrainians were ethnically cleansed off Crimea ages ago by Stalin along with Greeks, Jews, Tatars
99% of population of Sevastopol killed in "Great Patriotic War"
Stalin repopulated Crimea with ethnic Russians from Urals in !940s/1950s
everyone there IS Russian
let them have it....
Russians will take the Pearl and turn it into a bullet
so no one but them will want it anyway





Offline Stirlitz

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Re: Prospects for Crimea return
« Reply #113 on: May 09, 2018, 09:52:23 AM »
There is zero chance Russia will return Crimea to Ukraine. Zero chance.
When someone says there is zero chance I really enjoy it. Zero chance. No chance whatsoever. Yes, you are so right Mr. God.
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Offline JohnDearGreen

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Re: Prospects for Crimea return
« Reply #114 on: May 13, 2018, 06:56:16 PM »

Offline JayH

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Re: Prospects for Crimea return
« Reply #115 on: May 13, 2018, 07:48:57 PM »

The article speaks for itself.


School kids intimidated in Russian-occupied Crimea as Crimeans refuse to reject Ukrainian citizenship

Teachers in Russian-occupied Crimea are demanding information from parents as to whether their children have Russian citizenship and what residence status they and their parent(s) have.  The document came to light in connection with angry reactions from pro-Russian officials  to the large number of Crimeans obtaining Ukrainian biometric passports.  Russia’s first attempts to effectively eliminate Ukrainian citizenship hit hurdles from the outset, and four years after its invasion and annexation, there is nothing to suggest that most Crimeans want to renounce their Ukrainian citizenship.


http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1525098624
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline DaveNY

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Re: Prospects for Crimea return
« Reply #116 on: May 13, 2018, 09:10:53 PM »
When someone says there is zero chance I really enjoy it. Zero chance. No chance whatsoever. Yes, you are so right Mr. God.

Stirlitz when do you think Ukraine might reclaim Crimea? As krimster2 says the overwhelming vast majority of the residents of Crimea are Russians so there's not going to be a popular uprising on Crimea to reclaim it for Ukraine.

Once the bridge linking Crimea to mainland Russia is complete Crimea will be even more wedded to Russia. Stirlitz, you're a local, I always assume locals know more than foreigners, when and how will Ukraine reclaim Crimea?

Offline BillyB

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Re: Prospects for Crimea return
« Reply #117 on: May 13, 2018, 09:45:51 PM »

Stirlitz joined the military after Russia invaded. He's as patriotic as they come.

Realistically it would be hard for Ukraine to get Crimea back. Russia is active in other parts of the world. The world's attention is somewhere else right now, not on returning Crimea.

Ukraine has a headache(Crimea) and Russia has taken a hammer to Ukraine's fingers(Eastern Ukraine) so Ukraine can forget about the headache and address the finger pain instead. Putin is playing the long game and will keep Ukraine destabilized until they elect a president he can buy. That president will do what pro Western presidents can't and that is to bring peace to Eastern Ukraine which will stabilize the economy.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline deccie

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Re: Prospects for Crimea return
« Reply #118 on: May 13, 2018, 11:12:30 PM »

Ukraine has a headache(Crimea) and Russia has taken a hammer to Ukraine's fingers(Eastern Ukraine) so Ukraine can forget about the headache and address the finger pain instead. Putin is playing the long game and will keep Ukraine destabilized until they elect a president he can buy. That president will do what pro Western presidents can't and that is to bring peace to Eastern Ukraine which will stabilize the economy.
Very astute post there Billy. I do indeed think that is his game plan.

Offline msmob

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Re: Prospects for Crimea return
« Reply #119 on: May 13, 2018, 11:32:30 PM »
At last, the long awaited bridge opening ceremony:


http://www.kuresh.info/ne-vyiderzhala-nagruzki-i-tresnula-opora-kerchenskogo-mosta.htm

Can I crib this and see if it's allowed somewhere else ? ;)

Offline Boethius

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Re: Prospects for Crimea return
« Reply #120 on: May 14, 2018, 02:23:45 PM »
Stirlitz when do you think Ukraine might reclaim Crimea? As krimster2 says the overwhelming vast majority of the residents of Crimea are Russians so there's not going to be a popular uprising on Crimea to reclaim it for Ukraine.

Once the bridge linking Crimea to mainland Russia is complete Crimea will be even more wedded to Russia. Stirlitz, you're a local, I always assume locals know more than foreigners, when and how will Ukraine reclaim Crimea?


I think he is just saying you can never say "never".  Just FYI, Stirlitz is from Crimea, though he's lived in Odesa for many, many years.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Online krimster2

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Re: Prospects for Crimea return
« Reply #121 on: May 14, 2018, 03:06:01 PM »
"Very astute post there Billy. I do indeed think that is his game plan."

then explain the complete reorganization of Russian military post-crimea
which has been reorganized from top to bottom as a blitzkrieg attack force striking out from
the southern military district in Rostov
instead of a counter-NATO force...

guess what"
thanks to "where's my iphone" app, I know the position of several Russian brigades in the southern military district
the gift that keeps on giving...




Online krimster2

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Re: Prospects for Crimea return
« Reply #122 on: May 14, 2018, 06:45:54 PM »
BO', did you know the "little green men" who first appeared in Crimea were "Wagner"
the same Russian "private security" firm that received the casualties in Syria!

Offline DaveNY

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Re: Prospects for Crimea return
« Reply #123 on: May 14, 2018, 07:05:02 PM »

I think he is just saying you can never say "never".  Just FYI, Stirlitz is from Crimea, though he's lived in Odesa for many, many years.

Boethius if you take "never" to mean literally forever I'd agree. There's always a chance that several hundred years in the future Russia could be a fragmented country that is only a shadow of its former self.

China might have claimed much of the Russian Far East because of the area's many natural resources. Several populist nationalist movements could have claimed much of central and southern Russia.

This would leave a much smaller Russia. Perhaps Russia would be dramatically weakened from decades of fighting domistic and foreign forces. Perhaps also Ukraine would be reinvigorated having shaken off centuries of corruption and ennui and would then have the necessary military and economic might to eject Russian forces from Crimea. Or perhaps Russian forces would have abandoned Crimea to fight off China and the nationalist movements.

However, even after all that the vast majority of Crimea's citizens would still be Russian. Unless the Ukrainian military is rescuing Crimea from some type of post apocalyptic nightmare world the Ukrainian government and military would still be unwanted.

Let's just say the chances of Crimea being returned to Ukraine within the next few decades might not be zero but the chances are likely to be the number that is next to zero.   

I'm not insensitive to Stirlitz's feelings just a realist. After all many people say the USA won't be around in 100 years.



Offline jone

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Re: Prospects for Crimea return
« Reply #124 on: May 14, 2018, 08:18:23 PM »
Dave,

The idea of the repatriation of Krim to Ukraine is an unusual one.  It is true that the majority of the population of Krim was made up of pensioners originally from Russia.  It is also true that Krim had independent status within the loose political structure of Ukraine. 

But those of us who can remember back to 1991 will tell you that predicting the breakup of the Soviet Union was something that few, if any, saw coming. 

Russia is today playing the super power without a supporting cast.  Client states of the Eastern Bloc of nations today resent the idea that the Soviet Union ruled their governments and subsidized the standard of living in Russia to the detriment of those same states.  In addition, former Republics of the Soviet Union look to the West for primacy in trade and future commerce.  I'm thinking not only of Ukraine, but of the Baltics.

While Russia has tremendous natural resources, the continued emphasis on defense spending - to act the super power - costs much in resources and hard currency that could be spent on infrastructure development.  Absent the feeder governments of the Eastern Bloc and former Soviet Republics, it is hard to imagine that Russia can maintain its current governmental structure into the future.  Does that mean another rejection of the current regime?  Maybe not.  But to say that Russia will not reshape itself within our lifetimes is somewhat of a stretch. 

The bigger question is what is to become of Ukraine.  Russia, without Ukraine as a client state, does not have the basis for the economic group that was a primary focus of Putin when he was re-elected 6 years ago.  But Ukraine, if properly courted by the West, has the ability to adopt Western standards and successfully transition to a Western type society as has Poland, the Baltics, the Czech Republic, etc.

Because Russian sees itself as a belligerent, against Western interests, I believe that Ukraine will receive special attention from the West in that it is occupying the furthermost eastern border areas confronting Russia.

All of these factors will come into play when factoring in the future of Krim. 

Funny thing:  I had breakfast with a gal from Moskva this weekend.  She pulled out the new 2000 note Ruble pictures.  She showed me the back of the bill which is an engraving of a bridge.  She immediately told me that it was the bridge being built between Krim and the Russian mainland.  Then she went on to say how important Krim is to the Russian psyche.  I had to laugh to myself.  Because when I looked at the engraving, it is not the Kerch Strait Bridge, but instead is the Russky Bridge in Vladivostok.  I would have thought that a good Muscovite would have known the difference.
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

 

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