Minimum Wage debate - USA

[fathertime]

Good Points in the article Glyden. 


We wind up paying/supplementing people regardless, whether it be through the tax code, welfare, Obamacare, etc etc....


Fathertime! 

[lordtiberius]

Here is some interesting reading about the minimum wage debate.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesleadershipforum/2014/07/01/why-companies-that-pay-above-the-minimum-wage-come-out-ahead/
"I studied four retail chains that manage to do this: Costco, Trader Joe’s, QuikTrip (a U.S. chain of convenience stores with gas stations), and Mercadona (Spain’s largest supermarket chain). They offer their employees much better jobs than their competitors, all the while keeping their prices low and performing well in all the ways that matter to any business. They have high productivity, great customer service, healthy growth, and excellent returns to their investors. They compete head-on with companies that spend far less on their employees, and they win.
When I analyzed these four companies, I found that despite all their differences, they had one element in common: They all make a set of smart choices that allow them to achieve the combination of good jobs, low prices, and great results. These companies all follow what I call the good jobs strategy. It has two components.
First, these companies consider their workforce not as a cost to be minimized but as a strategic asset. They invest in their employees with the expectation that they will get even more back in terms of labor productivity, customer service, cost-cutting, innovation, and flexibility during difficult times. Most businesses consider their high-level managers and skilled professionals to be strategic assets. But these companies see their front-line people that way, too.
Second, these companies make smart operational choices that enable their employees to be more productive and motivated and play a much bigger role in driving sales and reducing costs than in most retail chains. Good design in operations is the secret ingredient that makes the good jobs strategy work.
This combination of investment in people and operations works so well because the retail front line is a much more complex environment than people think. Take a supermarket, a setting full of bad jobs. In a typical supermarket, employees manage around 40,000 products. They serve more than 2,000 customers a day, who arrive at different times and want different things. They manage over a hundred sales promotions per week. There is a lot going on, and there is a lot that can be done more productively and profitably by workers who are motivated, proud of their work, and not always in too much of a rush. Of course, there is also a lot that can go wrong if workers are not trained, not motivated, or just too few in number. Wal-Mart executives are reported to have said that improving shelving alone could be a $3 billion opportunity."

Do you live in America?

[Muzh]

 Real men who know how to fight don't feel a need to talk about it here.

Then why don't you just STFU and stop bragging about what a man you are? Having second thoughts about that?

[Muzh]

Do you live in America?

Step away from the keyboard and take your pills.

[lordtiberius]

Step away from the keyboard and take your pills.

Step away from the keyboard and jump off a cliff.

[AC]

Step away from the keyboard and jump off a cliff.

Who knows, 2016 is going to be an even more awesome year than 2014 was.   

[lordtiberius]

We will see!  It depends on how well the GOP does in opposing Obama.  They have had years to practice.

One thing is clear Mr. Obama and his party had years to deliver on their promises of peace and prosperity.  Even if they nominate Pocahontas, the American people are weary of their solutions.  They always make the lives of the less fortunate worse off.

There is absolutely no need for a minimum wage law.  It is worthless and unenforceable.  It pu wishes the people it is supposed to help.  It is an inflationary force on the market and a job killer.  And the people who support these hikes know it.  They just hate this country.

[Shadow]

We will see!  It depends on how well the GOP does in opposing Obama.  They have had years to practice.

One thing is clear Mr. Obama and his party had years to deliver on their promises of peace and prosperity.  Even if they nominate Pocahontas, the American people are weary of their solutions.  They always make the lives of the less fortunate worse off.

There is absolutely no need for a minimum wage law.  It is worthless and unenforceable.  It pu wishes the people it is supposed to help.  It is an inflationary force on the market and a job killer.  And the people who support these hikes know it.  They just hate this country.

Indeed a minimum wage is unneeded. Just find people who eat less so they do work for less as well.

[fathertime]

There is absolutely no need for a minimum wage law.  It is worthless and unenforceable.   

I think the minimum wage law IS enforced pretty well.  Pretty much all the big companies abide by it here in the states. I'm sure there are SOME exceptions but that is far from common practice.   As to it's value, if not for minimum wage I believe the people with least ability to fight and organize for themselves would be the most abused.  Paying a [size=78%]minimum wage is the cost of doing business here in the USA.[/size][/size][size=78%] [/size][/size]

 

   It is an inflationary force on the market and a job killer. 

[/size]

Although I know govt inflation statistics are cherry-picked and somewhat cooked, From personal experience it seems inflation is and has been relatively tame for quite some time.  Many of the essentials can still be had for cheap enough.  Two areas where prices are inflating are college costs, and health care.  Lots of other things are going down in price, including many things related to computers/technology and now oil related products!   

There is absolutely no need for a minimum wage law.  It is worthless and unenforceable.  It pu wishes the people it is supposed to help.  It is an inflationary force on the market and a job killer.  And the people who support these hikes know it.  They just hate this country.

I see you remain on theme!  So now if people believe the minimum wage is a good thing, they hate the country.  Very stellar logic!   


Fathertime!   

[BillyB]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesleadershipforum/2014/07/01/why-companies-that-pay-above-the-minimum-wage-come-out-ahead/
"I studied four retail chains that manage to do this: Costco, Trader Joe’s, QuikTrip (a U.S. chain of convenience stores with gas stations), and Mercadona (Spain’s largest supermarket chain).

Let's say those 4 companies represent the top 1% of the retail chains and they attract the top 1% the available retail employees available. Let's say the bottom 1% of retail companies who have the bottom 1% of the available retail employees available working for them now pay their employees the same or more wages and benefits as the top 1%, their employees do not all of a sudden become the top one percent.


Better wages can motivate employees but it doesn't make the employee. Remember the scenario I mentioned where you pay a guy $10 an hour to cut your grass and he works slow and does a bad job? You may pay him $5 an hour the next time you hire him or not hire him at all. You will pay him what he's worth. You will not do what that article suggests and pay him more such as $30 an hour to encourage him to perform like the top 1% of landscapers. You want a better job done, you find a better landscaper and pay him more, not pay a bad landscaper more to get better work.


If a 50 yo man is making minimum wage at McDonalds, I don't feel sorry for him. He's had many opportunities to advance in his life but chose not to or employers felt he isn't worth keeping around due to his work ethic, lack of responsibility or addictions. Rewarding him with higher wages is not the answer. There are plenty of decent jobs are out there and available. One needs to go find them and earn the right to work them.


I'm happy Costco, Trader Joe's, QuikTrip, and Mercadona are taking very good care of their employees. Only the finest employees in retail deserve to work there but the finest employees may represent the top 10%, not everybody so the other 90% do not deserve what the top 10% is getting.

[calmissile]

Let's say those 4 companies represent the top 1% of the retail chains and they attract the top 1% the available retail employees available. Let's say the bottom 1% of retail companies who have the bottom 1% of the available retail employees available working for them now pay their employees the same or more wages and benefits as the top 1%, their employees do not all of a sudden become the top one percent.


Better wages can motivate employees but it doesn't make the employee. Remember the scenario I mentioned where you pay a guy $10 an hour to cut your grass and he works slow and does a bad job? You may pay him $5 an hour the next time you hire him or not hire him at all. You will pay him what he's worth. You will not do what that article suggests and pay him more such as $30 an hour to encourage him to perform like the top 1% of landscapers. You want a better job done, you find a better landscaper and pay him more, not pay a bad landscaper more to get better work.


If a 50 yo man is making minimum wage at McDonalds, I don't feel sorry for him. He's had many opportunities to advance in his life but chose not to or employers felt he isn't worth keeping around due to his work ethic, lack of responsibility or addictions. Rewarding him with higher wages is not the answer. There are plenty of decent jobs are out there and available. One needs to go find them and earn the right to work them.


I'm happy Costco, Trader Joe's, QuikTrip, and Mercadona are taking very good care of their employees. Only the finest employees in retail deserve to work there but the finest employees may represent the top 10%, not everybody so the other 90% do not deserve what the top 10% is getting.

Not only is UPS had a reputation of a great company to work for (according to my family that worked there), let's remember the examples set by the companies in Silicon Valley.  In order to attract the best and brightest they constructed campuses that were the envy everywhere.  Large, great cafeterias, gyms, day care facilities, and fantastic wages.  A young lad that was the son of a girlfriend, that I mentored, started in a small software company in Santa Barbara, then went to Apple, then Adobe.  He now owns his own successful software company and has become a millionaire.  I don't think he ever finished college and had little financial support from his mother in his teenage years. 

Furthermore, he never had a chip on his shoulder or whined about not getting handouts from society.  His hard work and motivation payed off.  I am proud to have mentored him and provided some support to his computer hobby when he was a teenager.  My early teenage life much parroted his and I learned that hard work and motivation is the key to success. 

A person that receives everything free, without hard work and effort does not create the drive and motivation that creates great minds and entrepreneurs. We have great examples of those failures in the USA, when mama and papa spend their retirement money to put their kids through basket-weaving classes at the university and the graduates cannot find a worthwhile job or even know how to balance their checkbook.  Of course they are experts at solving the worlds problems such as human rights, global warming, saving the whales, etc.

Socialistic societies that try to keep everyone equal (in standard of living) seem to never provide the required motivation for workers to excel.  Nevertheless, it's a great 'feel good' argument for some that would be jealous and envious of others that worked harder to get ahead.

Of course, in the real world there are many that are content with punching a time clock and going home without having a stressful day at work.  There is nothing wrong with that.  Their families may be better off for it.  My issue is that in our current times we are being bombarded with political correctness that pushes for the unfairness of anyone that works harder or longer hours benefiting from their labor.  This idea of government policies dictating that all must be nearly equal is foreign to Americans until the past 30 or so years since Johnson instituted the "Great Society" (welfare state) programs.  I can't really say things have gotten better under our pseudo-socialism. 

[lordtiberius]

They have gotten worse - duh

[Shadow]

Setting a minumum wage has nothing to do with job opportunities, performance or making everyone equal.
It simply means that the minimal amount an employee makes is enough to stay alive and support basic needs.

If a 50 year old man is working at McDonalds, he should at least not need to find more than that job to pay his bills and feed his family. With 40 hours of work a week, even the lowest paid jobs should support a family. That does not mean living in luxury, but just being able to pay all bills without needing to work double hours.

It surprises me that a society which claims to have the largest eonomy can not even provide such a guarantee for its citizens.

[lordtiberius]

You pay for it then.  Stop telling us what to do with our money.

[Shadow]

You pay for it then.  Stop telling us what to do with our money.

Yeah starve your own countrymen so that you can be greedy.

[LiveFromUkraine]

Setting a minumum wage has nothing to do with job opportunities, performance or making everyone equal.
It simply means that the minimal amount an employee makes is enough to stay alive and support basic needs.

If a 50 year old man is working at McDonalds, he should at least not need to find more than that job to pay his bills and feed his family. With 40 hours of work a week, even the lowest paid jobs should support a family. That does not mean living in luxury, but just being able to pay all bills without needing to work double hours.

It surprises me that a society which claims to have the largest eonomy can not even provide such a guarantee for its citizens.

Shadow, you are arguing with people who think minimum wage earners are asking for something free.  Then they go to talk about working hard and working long hours is foreign to those minimum wage earners.

I took a couple of years off of college and worked full time.  I basically worked two jobs from 6am to 10pm earning slightly above minimum wage.  I was single and didn't have a family to support so I can only imagine what it would have been like if I did have a family.

Some of these guys haven't got a clue as to what working hard really is.  Yet they got on their high horses and think people who want to earn a decent wage for the hours they put in are asking for charity. 

Sure, all those minimum wage earners should all just go out and start a software company.  lol  Too damn funny.


This is a time where having a bachelor degree is pretty much worthless unless attained in a small number of fields.  Yet college prices are through the roof.

People are not retiring like they did in the past.  Many older people are needing to continue working instead of enjoying their golden years.  That means the jobs available are even less.

Well hell, we should take this a step further if we are talking drains on our society.   I think being fat is a drain on our society.  It increases costs substantially.  These fatties also want companies to accommodate their gluttony by offering bigger seats and more room for the bulk.


I say we should do something about them as well. 

[pokerintherear]

Setting a minumum wage has nothing to do with job opportunities, performance or making everyone equal.
It simply means that the minimal amount an employee makes is enough to stay alive and support basic needs.

If a 50 year old man is working at McDonalds, he should at least not need to find more than that job to pay his bills and feed his family. With 40 hours of work a week, even the lowest paid jobs should support a family. That does not mean living in luxury, but just being able to pay all bills without needing to work double hours.

It surprises me that a society which claims to have the largest eonomy can not even provide such a guarantee for its citizens.

Oh my, as usual a complete lack of understanding of the American economic system. There is a reason the US has an economy the size of which you claim. Minimum wage jobs were never intended as a job to raise a family. They are used to supplement your income or for people who have no desire in life and just want to squeak by.  Do some research.

Business in the US is a dog eat dog world. It is competitive beyond your imagination. Most people who decide to take the plunge into starting a business understand this. The desire burns red in some people. They understand the way the system works.

I have a question for you if would be so kind to consider it for your consumption.

If you owned a business and the government passed a law that you must pay your employees $15 dollars an hour. This increases your daily expenses by 25%. What would you do as the owner? Raise your prices? Cut employee hours? Eliminate employees? Borrow money to cover the extra expenses? Borrow money to try and grow the business to create more revenue? Try and make it until the checks start bouncing? Sell to a larger company if possible? Start crying to the government to reverse the law?

[jone]

The Minimum Wage discussion is never one that interested me.  All of my people make more than minimum wage, and more than a proposed minimum wage.  However, the idea of increasing minimum wage by almost 40% seems rather ludicrous to me.  The US government has more political acumen than to do such a thing.  Instead, increase, at best, maybe a dollar an hour, etc.  Then revisit in the future.  We're not trying to make a socialist society, just trying to keep a minimum wage tied to the cost of living.

[LiveFromUkraine]

Oh my, as usual a complete lack of understanding of the American economic system. There is a reason the US has an economy the size of which you claim. Minimum wage jobs were never intended as a job to raise a family. They are used to supplement your income or for people who have no desire in life and just want to squeak by.  Do some research.

Since you have done your research, you can surely point us to all of these jobs people can get to raise their families.  As far as I have read, most of the jobs being added now are mainly part time work.

Business in the US is a dog eat dog world. It is competitive beyond your imagination. Most people who decide to take the plunge into starting a business understand this. The desire burns red in some people. They understand the way the system works.

Do you really think the US is more dog eat dog than the rest of the world?

I have a question for you if would be so kind to consider it for your consumption.

If you owned a business and the government passed a law that you must pay your employees $15 dollars an hour. This increases your daily expenses by 25%. What would you do as the owner? Raise your prices? Cut employee hours? Eliminate employees? Borrow money to cover the extra expenses? Borrow money to try and grow the business to create more revenue? Try and make it until the checks start bouncing? Sell to a larger company if possible? Start crying to the government to reverse the law?

Straw man, what if arguments are useless. 

[Muzh]

You pay for it then.  Stop telling us what to do with our money.

Shadow, this summarizes the mentality of many on the right.


I got mine, fcuk you.

[Gylden]

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/07/03/3456393/minimum-wage-state-increase-employment/

Think a higher minimum wage is a job killer? Think again: The states that raised their minimum wages on January 1 have seen higher employment growth since then than the states that kept theirs at the same rate.
The minimum wage went up in 13 states — Arizona, Connecticut, Colorado, Florida, Missouri, Montana, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Washington — either thanks to automatic increases in line with inflation or new legislation, as Ben Wolcott reports in his analysis at the Center for Economic and Policy Research.  The average change in employment for those states over the first five months of the year as compared with the last five of 2013 is .99 percent, while the average for all remaining states is .68 percent. Digging deeper, all but one of those states are experiencing increases in employment, and nine of them have seen growth above the median rate.

[lordtiberius]

Shadow, this summarizes the mentality of many on the right.


I got mine, fcuk you.

No, hey I can be socialist, atheist. 

[Muzh]

No, hey I can be socialist, atheist.  [edited by Anonmod]

Hmm, man of god.

[AC]

Back on topic.  I found poster BillyB's arguments to be the best concerning problems with raising the minimum wage too high.  Why should anyone bust their hump and try to get ahead when they can coast?

[Shadow]

Oh my, as usual a complete lack of understanding of the American economic system. There is a reason the US has an economy the size of which you claim. Minimum wage jobs were never intended as a job to raise a family. They are used to supplement your income or for people who have no desire in life and just want to squeak by.  Do some research.

Business in the US is a dog eat dog world. It is competitive beyond your imagination. Most people who decide to take the plunge into starting a business understand this. The desire burns red in some people. They understand the way the system works.

I have a question for you if would be so kind to consider it for your consumption.

If you owned a business and the government passed a law that you must pay your employees $15 dollars an hour. This increases your daily expenses by 25%. What would you do as the owner? Raise your prices? Cut employee hours? Eliminate employees? Borrow money to cover the extra expenses? Borrow money to try and grow the business to create more revenue? Try and make it until the checks start bouncing? Sell to a larger company if possible? Start crying to the government to reverse the law?

You live in a capitalist society. That means if you can not pay your workers a salary they can live on and stay in business, you fold.