VISITING ONE versus VISITING MANY

[Photo Guy]

I wrote:
Leslie,
That was an excellent post from 3 years ago about VM and VO. Many of us were not here exploring that territory at that time.
Elena of Elena's Models promotes the idea of visiting one woman
and says the success rate is higher than visiting many women.
What do other agency operators think works better?

Something I like about the VO strategy is that focusing on one woman
definitely has a seductive effect on her, like an aphrodisiac. If you are
sincerely excited and focused on one woman, she will feel special.
With this approach the process begins with that aura.

If you're dating many women in a short time span, many women will
feel the opposite way - like they are NOT considered a strong choice or like a special woman/marriage material. There's the argument that you shouldn't want a woman who falls apart under that kind of competitive pressure. The argument says a woman who needs to feel 'special' immediately is an inferior female specimen, not worthy of any feelings of regret. You can say this phase is just 'dating' and a woman should not feel insecure about being part of a Visit Many process. From the women I
have known, I have concluded that their insecurity about that process is not a severely deficient quality. In fact, I think it's pretty normal and common-place for fantastic women to feel that the process is demeaning to them. If your typical mainstream woman feels humiliated by the process of dating where she is rapidly followed and preceeded by other candidates,
then it is very possible that the guy would be left with only desperate women who feel humiliation is acceptable, -right? The argument that women should not feel humiliated or UN-special, ignores the reality that a
large percentage of high-quality women do feel this way. Here in the US, it's easy to avoid the subject in the beginning phase of dating. You just don't tell them what you are doing next Saturday night, but you are available on Friday. You can't avoid the subject through omission in a small fish bowl like Ukraine where the women know where you are looking, -at other women. I think Kevin/Goombah is right about this.

I'm adding:

Now I've seen very emotional responses to my opinions and I'll ask you to not to become too emotional. Hey, it's a free country or rather a free internet. I'll express my opinions and take them or leave them. Over the years I've seen how AW women repond to myself and guys who date a multitude of women. They don't respond well at ANY stage of the dating process. If course, if they aren't interested in continuing dating, then it is true that they won't care about the fact that you are dating a bunch of other women. The more they care about you, the more passionate their anger will be, and that anger can cause her to (irrationally) reject you, which seems rather extreme, but that's how women are. May women like to be dominated, but if it takes on an aura of disrespect, the relationship can easily become doomed.
It can be difficult to say, 'Yes I like you very much and you may be the ONE for me, but tomorrow I'll be busy meeting 'W' and I hear she is supposed to be very nice. I'll let you know how it goes, ..or actually it's none of your business because hell sweet-thing, we are JUST dating!'

!!I'd like to hear the opinions of successful couples and agency owners
on this HOT topic.    Doug  

[Todd]

I'm not sure if I fit the profile of the typical person on this site who goes to the FSU.  I have really wanted to go to Russia since I was 14.  Last year, I had an opportunity to go but none of my friends had any interest.  Thus, I hit on a creative idea since I was single at the time.  Why not place an ad to see if I could meet someone while touring Russia?  Thus, I wasn't going to meet a potential wife, but rather, I was going to meet a potential friend...with potential.  Thus, the person that I decided to meet was someone that I thought would be fun to explore a new city with and potentially travel around a country with.  I'm really not sure what I would have done if Kate and I hadn't liked each other as well as we did.  I've traveled enough where I'm more than happy to do little to no advanced planning prior to the plane trip.  For me, I travel to relax.  Reading some of the WMVM trips sounds anything but relaxing, and I was going primarily to relax.

I guess if I were to visit the FSU with the primary goal of meeting someone then I would adopt a hyrid approach.  I would visit one but know of a couple of good agencies if things went south.  

[KenC]

Doug,

I see more than a couple of holes in your opinions and comments here, but let's start with two:

#1- You cannot compare "rules" used in dating AM to dating RW.  The two worlds are complete opposite.  Our American society has really screwed this one up totally.  We are convinced by feminist BS and the American media that women are superior to men.  Watch any popular comedy show on TV and I can tell you that the husband and most of the male characters are weak minded dolts being led around by a "down to earth" logical minded wife (or woman).  Even the commercials on our TV rant this message.  The credit card commercial where the man is getting his butt kicked by the high interest monster until his wife saves him, is a good example.  In America men are cast as weak and silly whereas women are cast as strong and logical.  Huh?  It is because of this type of thinking that AM have become "pussified" and the women have become masculine and dominant.  Women control the dating game here in America.

Now in Russia, the tables are turned completely opposite.  The number of women available to date far exceeds the available men.  This is because of the high rate of men in the military, alcohalics, high death rate for men and the fact that a large number of men are eliminated from dating just because they cannot afford to do it.  The men control the dating game in fsu countries.

The fact remains that as a man, you need to change your way of thinking while pursuing a RW.  I am not advocating to be demeaning or harsh in any way, but while you have the control, use it to your own benifit.  We AM go to Russia for a better deal, not the same ol same ol.

#2-You are applying "relationship rules" to first time meetings.  No matter how much you corresponded with the woman you met in Ukraine, you still were meeting her for the first time.  You have no "real" relationship with her.  You have a virtual or fantasy relationship until you spend time together.  I don't know about you, but I would date an AW for quite a while before I had an exclusive relationship with her.  And even then, until I married, I wouldn't account for every second of my day or night to her.  Hell, I still have my time to myself inside my marriage.

You are simply putting the cart before the horse with this type of thinking.  Guess what?  The women are trying you out too!  You go over and meet a few women and see if you click, just as they keep meeting men (American or otherwise).  It is a natual way of mate selection.  There is nothing devious or underhanded about it.  Everyone (men & women) want the best for themselves.  It is human, no, it is animal nature to do this.  Ever hear of the survival of the fittest?  It works for humans too.  The best men get the best women. 

You simply took yourself out of the game before you boarded the plane.  You settled for the first woman that wouldn't even have you! (The lack of affection thing)  To use this process correctly or to your own best benifit, you use your first trip or trips to introduce yourself to women.  I used an agency.  They were great for the introductions.  I met some very nice women.  I admit that I was smitten with my now wife Lena before my trip.  But I would not allow that to interfere with meeting other women.  She not only accepted it, but expected it.  She knew the drill and didn't play any games either.  She would never have expected me to just meet her, just as I would never expect her to be exclusive to me.

Now as my time on my first trip wore on, it became apparent to Lena and I that we did have something special.  I stopped seeing others and zeroed in on her.  When I left, I never promised any exclusivity nor did she ask for it.  That is something that comes over time, not before you meet. 

KenC

[Donna_Pedro]

It would be not so bad to ask a woman's opinion as well.  As I stated  many times before I would not even waste my time talking to a man if I learnt he was planning VM stratagy.   Iv heard other women saying that it was OK with them to know that a man of their choice was visiting  others, but honestly I do not believe that they actually liked the idea. I think  that they put up with it, because it gave them a  chance instead of no chances at all - its not a secret that only a small %% of men writing are actually coming to visit.  My husband came to visit just me and by that time we had  hours and hours  of phone and on-line conversations that by the time Mr.Pedro stepped off the plane in Sheremet'evo,  we actually had a relationship. Once he kept me on the phone for 12 hours straight. We had a couple of meals together (on the phone), he went shopping while still being on the phone etc etc.  So if you do not (or can not) afford to invest a lot ( I mean A LOT) of time building a relationship with a woman, but only can write a few letters a week, or your woman does not speak english - its better not to take risk and use a VM stratagy. A woman too  has no right to demand to be the only one to be visited if she is not ready to invest  a lot of time into building pre-visitation relationship.

[ConnerVT]

OK Donna, I have a question for you:

What would you have done if, after "investing" (your word) so much time and effort in corresponding with Mr. Pedro, that when you met, there wasn't a spark of interest?  For what ever reason -- Wrong chemistry.  Maybe he never mentioned he had enormously large ears.  You just didn't feel it right when you two finally met.

Would you continue on with the relationship?  You have an investment to protect.  Perhaps you would be willing to overlook moderate problems?  Or do you cut your losses, and start your long letter writing process with another one person?

[Bruce]

I've said it once and I'll say it again.....................once you step off the plane and meet the girl its a whole new ballgame.

[andrewfi]

Mating is a competitive sport with three teams:

1) You

2) Her

3) Everyone else seeking a mate

It is in the best interest of each that team should play the game with their preferred rules. For a woman seeking a foreign husband through an agency, the chances of success is around 4-5% if one chooses to believe the estimable Elena, referenced by Photoguy. It is thus blindingly obvious that for a woman in the FSU seeking a foreign guy that her best strategy is to do her level best to ensure that you see nobody else but her.

For the man, it is equally obvious that unless he has fallen in love with a photograph (Photoguy, stand up please!), he has a much better chance of finding an appropriate mate by assessing multiple options.

Everyone else, well, when you, Photoguy, are not around, we will, if your woman is at all attractive, be approaching your 'girlfriend' and guess what? She will be responding. For your 'girlfriend' and us, therefore, in this aspect of the game, there are no rules except that possession and access always trump absence from the field. Don't believe what your GF tells you, she will tell you what she thinks will work out best for her, this is normal!

If a woman says she would not have a relationship with a guy dating other women then one must make a choice. If one has limited resources, limited experience and limited communication abilities then this woman should be ignored, or told that her rules will not be followed. She can make her own choice also.

We always make the best choices when actually have a choice, kinda makes sense doesn't it?

Personal example. A friend of mine moved here a few weeks ago. Good looking bloke, earns a decent amount of money, very pleasant guy and house trained. He has no intention of settling down now, but is happy to spend time with women. I introduced him to a friend, very nice woman. They like each other, but like me, he is also seeing other women. She 'falls in love' and decides that he should see only her, so she questions his committment to her. He tells her (repeats) what he has told her before. SHe blows him off as she says she wants only an exclusive relationship. He is saddened but, life goes on.

Yesterday she calls my friend. Tells him she is sorry, she likes him and wants to be with him, but accepts that he is not planning to settle down. Now they will play by his rules and both will be happy. He will be as happy as before and she will be happier than when she was alone and still has a chance to win the lottery prize... That seems like win/win to me.

Doug, go and find an American woman, your country is full of good looking, decent women. Most of them are nicer than the women you might meet here, the only difference is that the ones here, you can not communicate with and so do not know that they are the same as the ones back home. When you have a few relationships locked up and you once again know what is good and bad, know what it feels like to be desired; then go to Ukraine again. If you cannot find a woman in the US who desires you, wants you, needs you and loves you then going to Ukraine will not solve the problems, because you will be the problem and only you can solve that one and once solved, the plane trip will not be needed.

 

[jb]

[quoteKenC wrote:  Watch any popular comedy show on TV[/quote]

The best, or maybe the worst, example of this is "Will & Grace".  How much less of a man could they have choosen to play opposite the pretty, sexy, funny, intellegent, Grace, than to cast her with a couple of bumbling queers.  If that isn't enough to take the lead out of a man's pencil....

[catzenmouse]

I had written to many and narrowed it down to one. I was advised to have a backup plan just in case so I found some profiles of other interesting looking and sounding ladies in the same town and the address of an agency as a "just in case" option.

It turned out that the one I had written to and talked with on the phone got cold feet and was a no show. I met a couple of other ladies via the agency in town that I  contacted and to my amazement I met Elena. We hit it off in every way and now we are very happy together.

So for me writing one was the way I went but with options.

Ken

[KenC]

If a woman says she would not have a relationship with a guy dating other women then one must make a choice. If one has limited resources, limited experience and limited communication abilities then this woman should be ignored, or told that her rules will not be followed. She can make her own choice also.

We always make the best choices when actually have a choice, kinda makes sense doesn't it?

Good post Andrew.  I particularly liked the above.  Although, I don't think it was Photoguy's girl that even limited him as much as it was himself.   Most guys that go on WOVO trips try to force a round peg into a square hole so as to save their invested time and energy.

KenC

[chuckinwdc]

I had written to many and narrowed it down to one. I was advised to have a backup plan just in case so I found some profiles of other interesting looking and sounding ladies in the same town and the address of an agency as a "just in case" option.

It turned out that the one I had written to and talked with on the phone got cold feet and was a no show. I met a couple of other ladies via the agency in town that I  contacted and to my amazement I met Elena. We hit it off in every way and now we are very happy together.

So for me writing one was the way I went but with options.

Ken, great picture of you and Elena in your RWD avatar!  :-)

I think the WOVO vs. WMVM argument is a bit silly. In my view, it all depends on the men and the women who are involved in the process. Some women are okay with the idea that they're one of many that the man is pursuing. Some men feel uneasy about choosing too early. On the other hand, some women are offended by the prospect that a man might be "shopping", and some men are fine with making an early choice and then seeing if it works out.

For my wife and I, when our correspondence became quite serious, we both decided to be exclusive -- we stopped corresponding with other people.  That worked best for us.

I didn't go to meet her with any back up plans other than being a tourist if everything ended up not working out. Odessa is a beautiful city, and I could have been happy sightseeing for a week. But I think, in retrospect, I probably should have done what Ken did just in case.

But, happily, it wasn't necessary since we connected right away and spent a great 10 days or so together. We ended up meeting another six times over the course of 17 months before her arrival in the States to be with me.

Chuck & Veronica in D.C.

 

[Bruno]

In my case, i am more WMVO... WM because it is need to make some preselection, i don't wish loose time with woman who have some incompatibility with myself... VO because i need some time for fall in love... i can like a woman in 5 minute but like somebody and love is very different... but if the alchimy, of other thing are not good with the one i visit... i visit again one other...

In some way, i am a WMVOVOVOVO...VO... i meet the woman one by one until i find the good one... so strategie are not possible with one week wonder... but for a trip of 3-4 week, it is possible...

In anycase, each strategie have good and bad side... and argument on what strategie is the best is really not need...

Several people attack Doug because his strategie of visit one... the actual situation of Doug is not due because he have visit one but because he have make a too much short trip for these type of strategie...

Take by example the story of Timothy... visit one during 3 week... the first week lead to think about a misluck... the woman don't like him... but the time have allow the woman to appreciate other quality of him... and the trip have a happy end...

Now, give the time to Doug for make his second trip... only during these trip, he will know if she is the right woman... and maybe be engaged... and really, i don't understandt why some people advice him to date other woman in US... i think that he need continue the actual started relation... and he will know later if it was the good or bad move... if he stop now, he go never know if he was right or wrong... and so never learn...

[KenC]

Chuck,

The debate is silly because eventually we all have to get to visiting just one.  It is simply a numbers game that is being played in the beginning.  Does one want to select a prospective mate from a large pool of pssibilities?  Or take a blind poke of luck from a single choice?  And I will say that I do believe in luck too.  I was very lucky.

You also have to consider that some guys are just not very picky and others are very very picky.  I know of a poster here that went to the fsu countries many many times before he actually pulled the trigger.  I am sure that many of the women he met prior to his wife, were great gals for someone else.

I also think that the mind set of the man is even more important than the method her uses.  What I mean is if a man goes to Russia to fill a "wife vacancy", I think he is flirting with disaster.  The healthier way to pursue this process, IMHO, is to go over and meet women that you find interesting from a pool of women that are serious about marriage eventually.  I have met a lot of RW/AM couples and most of the successful ones took their sweet ol time and let the relationship develope on a more normal time table.

Bruno,

Not everyone has the luxury of a quick cheap flight to the fsu countries as you do.  That alone is a huge difference.

KenC

[andrewfi]

I agree, in the end it narrows down to one. But, given that I have never won in a lottery, I find it hard to believe that a person can find his/her best choice life companion in but a single shot. I also know that I could live with very many women that I know.

So, yes, it depends to a large degree upon one's standards. If one wants the best then one would be foolish to seek a bride from Russia one woman at a time. If one is willing to accept the the first woman one meets who is not repulsive, then doing the thing one at a time is viable. It will surely not take many shots to find an acceptable woman. It will surely take many more to find an optimal match. The woman's perspective is, of course different, she almost certainly has a different goal to the man; the man being just a part of the package for her.

And yes, I know some people do win the lottery, but one can not plan one's life on that expectation...

[Muzh]

What would you have done if, after "investing" (your word) so much time and effort in corresponding with Mr. Pedro, that when you met, there wasn't a spark of interest?  For what ever reason -- Wrong chemistry.  Maybe he never mentioned he had enormously large ears.  You just didn't feel it right when you two finally met.

Hey Neighbor;

To answer your question regarding "wrong chemistry", you may have eyes but you can't see.  If "big ears" is a deal breaker, maybe she's better off without a man that put such importance into appearance instead of a person's soul.

A little explanation.

Reasons to find a hot babe in the former Soyuz:

1) Looking for my soulmate

2) Someone to share same interests (no mention of big ears)

3) AW are so superficial, they hate big ears.

4) RW are very romantic, they could care less about big ears.

5) RW are old fashioned, they will love me for my heart.  My big ears are just gravy.

6) RW love a man being a man.  My big ears make me a bigger man.

7) Duh!

 

I fully understand Donna_Pedro because it was exactly the same with my wife.  The reason my wife chose me over a number of candidates, including a couple of young doctors from this side of the pond and a new Russian (I've seen pictures of him and my opinion is he is brutally handsome) was a simple sentence.  I told her that through her eyes I could see her soul.  Her big ears were just gravy.

[chuckinwdc]

6) RW love a man being a man.  My big ears make me a bigger man.

Conyo, hombre, you're making me feel inadequate because your ears are bigger than mine! 

Chuck in D.C.

[Muzh]

Mating is a competitive sport with three teams:

1) You

2) Her

3) Everyone else seeking a mate

Hey Dr. Strangelove:

What you described was not really dating, but just fucking around.  I did the same years ago and had a few "little black books."  I was told it was the accent.

However, if and when you decide to look for a life-time partner, what you just mentioned will be out the window.  A funny thing happens when a man falls for a woman.  It feels as if she somehow detaches your dick and has sole posession of it.  Even when you are hanging out with your buddies, she will still own the remote to your dick.  You will only use it for getting rid of the beer you drink with your buddies.

Right now you are in an envious position.  You own your own dick.  There will come a day that it will be hanging in a wall mount at her place, so enjoy it while it last.

[Muzh]

6) RW love a man being a man.  My big ears make me a bigger man.

Conyo, hombre, you're making me feel inadequate because your ears are bigger than mine! 

Chuck in D.C.
[/quote]
Well, what o you expect?  I'm at least 50 lbs bigger that you, 25 on each ear lobe!

[Muzh]

What you described was not really dating, but just ****ing around. 

Opps, sorry Dan.

[andrewfi]

Mushz, if you agree with the concept that love will blindly strike you then you have a point. Most of us though know that finding a mate, whilst a matter of luck, to some degree, is actually a numbers game.

Think about it. If you meet nobody, you have no opportunity to find a mate, yes?

If you pick the first person you meet, you have a poor chance of finding a compatible mate, yes?

I am sure that the person that you are with now is not the first person you met or dated, yes?

So we know that finding a mate, logically, means making a choice from several potential partners, yes?

You made a choice to stop looking, at some point so will most of us, you will recall that I wrote as much in my post, yes?

So, how can you disagree with what I wrote?

The only point of difference is that you appear to think that the man has no part in the process. That might be true for you, it is not true for most men, even if it is only a negative, as in a choice to move on. Also, do not forget that whatever you tell us, you know, as do almost all, self aware, seekers of wives from poorer countries, that there are significant distorting factors influencing the choice made by a woman. We can flatter ourselves as much as we like, it is fun and good for the ego, but seeing into the soul...? Perleeeze.

[Elen]

VISITING ONE versus VISITING MANY

What's about woman's "right" for "INVITING MANY"?( or how you call it, if you consider that possability at all of course)

 Would be she marked as a scammer or it would be OK for you to know she is going to "taste other waters" at the same time you 're visiting her just to make a best choice for herself or to have a garantee for the case chemestry would not appear with you?

[jb]

"taste other waters"

I suppose if she wants to taste other men, I guess that's ok.  I suspect you meant "test".  I see nothing wrong with a woman doing WMTS, (write many, taste many) from a woman's point of view. After all, she has to live with her choice in the long run.

What's good for the goose is also good for the gander.  In reality, I think women have always done this anyway.  Nothing new here.

[Elen]

I meant taste:D (what's wrong with "test men?)

[jb]

Elen, if you didn't get that play on words, I don't want to be the person who explains it to you.

[Elen]

Why would not explain English word's game for poor Russian thing who really didn't get it?:?