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Author Topic: More Bad News for Russia  (Read 1075522 times)

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Offline Doll

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More Bad News for Russia
« Reply #925 on: December 14, 2014, 08:42:30 PM »
I read, I think yesterday, that Russian fighters had invaded Sweden's airspace (again) and almost collided with a passenger jet.    This provocation is indicative of Russia actions against almost all nations bordering it.

I'm just curious what our Russian apologists think about this.  Do you think its fictitious?  Do you think it is in response to incursions by NATO in Russia?  Why would a nation continue to be belligerent?  What would be the basis for intentionally violating the airspace of another country?  Please, enlighten us.
Read it again, nobody INVADED

Offline Boethius

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« Reply #926 on: December 14, 2014, 08:44:36 PM »
( Novorossyisk is much worse as a port than Sevastopol)


No, it is a much deeper port than Sevastopol.  That is why all the big ocean liners/cargo ships dock there.
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Offline Boethius

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« Reply #927 on: December 14, 2014, 08:54:28 PM »
My husband's relative, founder of the fleet in Sevastopol -









That fleet was founded for sail ships.  It is still a very small port.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline calmissile

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« Reply #928 on: December 14, 2014, 09:01:06 PM »
Viva Germany!<<Thousands of Germans have staged a protest rally to express their anger at the West’s warmongering policies against Russia over the ongoing crisis in Ukraine.At least 3,500 people took part in the protest, organized by the German Peace Movement, in the capital Berlin on Saturday.The demonstrators marched to the presidential Bellevue palace to condemn the West’s confrontation with Russia over the conflict in Ukraine.They expressed concern that the policies adopted by the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) under the influence of the United States will lead to further escalation of tensions in Europe.The protesters also called for the dissolution of the Western military alliance, an immediate withdrawal of US nuclear weapons from Germany’s Büchel Air Base, and the closure of the US-run Ramstein Air Base in the country’s southwestern part.>>http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/12/14 ... -policies/

WOW!  3500 protesters.    ;D ;D ;D ;D

Maybe a good idea though.  Pull out of NATO and the UN, let these cowards try to defend themselves without US support. After spending their own money to build a military they might have second thoughts (assuming they are not invaded and 'annexed' in the mean time)!  Same goes for much of Europe.

In today's world, a "Coalition of the willing" might be a better way to deal with conflicts.  Any organization that becomes so large that a unanimous agreement must be made to take any action becomes a rather useless pipe-dream.   Same is true when a rogue nation has veto power over the rest of the members.

The only morally acceptable resolution to the Russian/Ukraine conflict is for Russia to withdraw all military and civilian puppets from Crimea and Eastern Ukraine and fully pay for reparations.  Ukraine did not invade and annex Russia, it is Russia that invaded Ukraine as well as other territories.  All the diplomatic talks and BS does not deter a nut case that uses military force to conquer another nation.  Only military force by allied nations will stop Putin from his aggression in Europe.  Economic sanctions is a nice (peaceful) idea, but it takes so long to be effective, the damage will already be done and countless lives lost during the process.
Doug (Calmissile)

Offline calmissile

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« Reply #929 on: December 14, 2014, 09:03:29 PM »
Read it again, nobody INVADED

Where is that brick that someone posted a while back?

Doug (Calmissile)

Offline fathertime

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« Reply #930 on: December 14, 2014, 09:06:33 PM »
The Seventh Fleet has been located permanently in the Mediterranean Sea since WWII.  They would de facto control what Turkey does.

The Soviets kept nuclear subs in Gibraltar for the same reason.

I read your post to my better half, who served in the Soviet military.  His response - "Anyone who believes the Black Sea has any strategic value knows nothing about the navy or naval strategy.  The Russians keep the fleet there because it's been there for 200 years.  Even when I was in the navy, everyone knew the Black Sea Fleet meant nothing.  It was, and is known, as "kaluzha" (the "Muddy Puddle" Fleet).  Even at the time I was in the navy, the technology made the Black Sea Fleet useless.  Today, it is less than that.  The Northern Fleet and the Pacific Fleet, which open to seas, are different."  He also said "Anyone who believes there was any military purpose for retaking Crimea knows nothing about Russia or Russian mentality.  It is about history, nothing more.  The idiot who gave Crimea to Ukraine thought the commies would rule forever." (Note, he is more ethnically Russian than Ukrainian.)


Even if we assumed your preposterous assertion has any merit, Russia already had a fleet in a better port on the Black Sea, at Novorossiysk.


Your husband is not posting here (is he?) and your characterization of his opinion, is nothing more than another opinion.  You or he did not refute the specific comments I made. 


You can argue Crimea is about history, and I'm sure that isn't entirely untrue...but  I think there is a case that it also has strategic purposes as well.  Turkey does not close down the sea to Russia and it is doubtful they ever will. 


Fathertime!   
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline sleepycat

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« Reply #931 on: December 14, 2014, 09:08:59 PM »

A Russian military jet nearly collided with a commercial passenger airplane in international airspace near southern Sweden on Friday, the Swedish authorities said, but Russia insisted on Sunday that its jet had kept at a safe distance.

I hope someone breath tested that Russian pilot to make sure he wasn't drunk!

Now, which country should we believe? Tough choice...

Offline Boethius

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« Reply #932 on: December 14, 2014, 09:11:03 PM »
Quote
You can argue Crimea is about history, and I'm sure that isn't entirely untrue...but  I think there is a case that it also has strategic purposes as well.  Turkey does not close down the sea to Russia and it is doubtful they ever will. 


Turkey has closed the Dardenelles numerous times.  You can google it.


When Russian naval officers refer the fleet as a "mud fleet", and that was long before the advanced weaponry of today, you know it has no military value.  So, you can stubbornly hold to your opinion, but it is flawed.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline calmissile

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« Reply #933 on: December 14, 2014, 09:17:51 PM »

Your husband is not posting here (is he?) and your characterization of his opinion, is nothing more than another opinion.  You or he did not refute the specific comments I made. 


You can argue Crimea is about history, and I'm sure that isn't entirely untrue...but  I think there is a case that it also has strategic purposes as well.  Turkey does not close down the sea to Russia and it is doubtful they ever will. 


Fathertime!

 

I don't think you are the sharpest tool in the shed.   ;D

Russia had a long term lease for the Naval base at Sevestopol and had they not invaded Crimea they would have continued to have it for many years to come.  Furthermore, the times we spent in Sevestopol were peaceful and there was no apparent animosity between Ukrainians (Crimean s) and the Russians (military and families) that we ever witnessed.    It is clearly Putin that created the animosity in Crimea and East Ukraine.

The only mistake made by Ukraine's new government was the stupid idea of limiting the Russian language (at least it was perceived that way by Russian speakers).
Doug (Calmissile)

Offline fathertime

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« Reply #934 on: December 14, 2014, 09:26:06 PM »
I don't think you are the sharpest tool in the shed.   ;D

Russia had a long term lease for the Naval base at Sevestopol and had they not invaded Crimea they would have continued to have it for many years to come.  Furthermore, the times we spent in Sevestopol were peaceful and there was no apparent animosity between Ukrainians (Crimean s) and the Russians (military and families) that we ever witnessed.    It is clearly Putin that created the animosity in Crimea and East Ukraine.

The only mistake made by Ukraine's new government was the stupid idea of limiting the Russian language (at least it was perceived that way by Russian speakers).


Yes Yes, but I KNOW you are not the sharpest tool in the shed!  :D


The preponderance of the rest of your post is opinion and conjecture....and I don't think the Russians would agree with.

Fathertime!



I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline fathertime

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« Reply #935 on: December 14, 2014, 09:31:25 PM »

Turkey has closed the Dardenelles numerous times.  You can google it.


When Russian naval officers refer the fleet as a "mud fleet", and that was long before the advanced weaponry of today, you know it has no military value.  So, you can stubbornly hold to your opinion, but it is flawed.


Actually you can present the closures to strengthen your case, but it is obvious you won't and for good reason.


So you are committed to saying that Crimea has NO military value...I'm comfy with you on record as having that opinion...obviously we can disagree. 


Fathertime!   



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Offline AC

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« Reply #936 on: December 14, 2014, 09:40:39 PM »
Viva Germany!<<Thousands of Germans have staged a protest rally to express their anger at the West’s warmongering policies against Russia over the ongoing crisis in Ukraine.At least 3,500 people took part in the protest, organized by the German Peace Movement, in the capital Berlin on Saturday.The demonstrators marched to the presidential Bellevue palace to condemn the West’s confrontation with Russia over the conflict in Ukraine.They expressed concern that the policies adopted by the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) under the influence of the United States will lead to further escalation of tensions in Europe.The protesters also called for the dissolution of the Western military alliance, an immediate withdrawal of US nuclear weapons from Germany’s Büchel Air Base, and the closure of the US-run Ramstein Air Base in the country’s southwestern part.>>http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/12/14 ... -policies/


As protests in Europe go 3,500 is a tiny number.  Insignifigant would be an understatement. 

Doll you should read the latest poll results regarding German public opinion about Russia.  Overall most Germans approve of the way that Angela Merkel has handled the crisis and they distrust Russia.

Offline jone

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« Reply #937 on: December 14, 2014, 10:41:20 PM »
One of the key components of membership in NATO is that a member nation cannot lease out a base to another, non-member nation within its territory.  I know that this is old ground, but should Ukraine choose to apply for membership in NATO, at least Krim will no longer prevent such membership.

I also note that the lease for the naval base and troops stationed in Krim was paid to Ukraine in the form of a discount on Gas prices, which, as soon as Krim was seized, was negated by the Russian government.  In other words, 'we're paying you for your naval base, but now that we've invaded you and taken your land from you, we'll no longer pay for using that land'.

Strategically, Krim offers nothing except oil drilling rights to Russia.  The naval base serves as an additional harbor, but one already in its possession. 

The belligerence that Russia now demonstrates to its neighbors was foisted on it by its actions in Krim.  One could argue that everything that has happened since the Olympics, and the spiraling of the Russian economy can all be attributed to the kneejerk reaction by the Russian government to EuroMaiden.

Russia was on shaky ground prior to the Olympics, but once the invasion occurred and the sanctions took hold, Russia's government was polarized and the hawks have certainly gained control over the foreign affairs of the country.
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Offline Belvis

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« Reply #938 on: December 15, 2014, 01:54:26 AM »
I read, I think yesterday, that Russian fighters had invaded Sweden's airspace (again) and almost collided with a passenger jet.    This provocation is indicative of Russia actions against almost all nations bordering it.

I'm just curious what our Russian apologists think about this.  Do you think its fictitious?  Do you think it is in response to incursions by NATO in Russia?  Why would a nation continue to be belligerent?  What would be the basis for intentionally violating the airspace of another country?  Please, enlighten us.

Jone, you impressed me as an intelligent man. So why you can not see the fakes?  :)
You have demonstarted   an example of west propaganda zombification when writing about  violating the airspace of another country.
OK, I have to help victims of info wars :D

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/12/14/world/europe/sweden-russia-planes-near-collision/
Quote
(CNN) -- A Russian military intelligence plane nearly collided with a commercial passenger jet south of Sweden on Friday, the Swedish air force chief said Sunday.

The incident in international airspace forced the passenger flight en route from Denmark to Sweden to change course, Maj. Gen. Micael Byden said.

But the Russian Defense Ministry refuted the notion that one of its warplanes nearly collided with a passenger jet.

And a spokesman for Scandinavian Airlines said reports of danger to the plane or passengers were "blown out of proportion."

Knut Morten Johansen said the flight wasn't forced to change course, but that the pilot took normal advice from air traffic control.

"No security borders were breached," he said, adding that it was a "totally safe flight."

Offline Belvis

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« Reply #939 on: December 15, 2014, 02:00:47 AM »
Strategically, Krim offers nothing except oil drilling rights to Russia.  The naval base serves as an additional harbor, but one already in its possession. 

As Russia's Prime Minister Medvedev said Crimea is not an economic issue. Crimea is Russian history and fate.
I agree with Medvedev.



Offline mendeleyev

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« Reply #940 on: December 15, 2014, 02:11:23 AM »
Krim was recent history, and short at that in the larger scheme of things. Using the common logic now employed, one could argue that Piter is Swedish, and with the same amount of justification.
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Offline sleepycat

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« Reply #941 on: December 15, 2014, 03:09:05 AM »
While we're talking about giving land back, may as well hand back parts of Siberia to China.
The Chinese would probably do a much better job with Siberia than under its current management.

Hmmm...China will gain energy independence once they annex Siberia. Frightening prospect for the rest of the world.

Offline Belvis

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« Reply #942 on: December 15, 2014, 03:21:21 AM »
Krim was recent history, and short at that in the larger scheme of things. Using the common logic now employed, one could argue that Piter is Swedish, and with the same amount of justification.

I would agree about the same amount of justification if Piter was still populated by Swedes.

BTW, Piter was not existing during Swedish times  :D

While we're talking about giving land back, may as well hand back parts of Siberia to China.

Hand back? You have huge gaps in knowledge of Chinese  history and geography as well as Siberian.

Offline AkMike

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« Reply #943 on: December 15, 2014, 03:28:38 AM »
Should Russia hand back the Kuban region that was exchanged for Krym?

Offline mendeleyev

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« Reply #944 on: December 15, 2014, 03:33:57 AM »
Quote
I would agree about the same amount of justification if Piter was still populated by Swedes.

You are too intelligent to be so blind, my friend. Should we return Kaliningrad? Seems like "history" and "justice" would dictate that it be returned if we hope to make a case for Krim.

If you truly believe in the principle of referendums alone deciding allegiance, then perhaps we should revisit the Chechen situation.


Quote
BTW, Piter was not existing during Swedish times

Swamp land it was, and the deaths of many a serf built that beautiful city. The LAND is what we were talking about, and that you know also.  :)
« Last Edit: December 15, 2014, 03:36:25 AM by mendeleyev »
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Offline Belvis

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« Reply #945 on: December 15, 2014, 04:14:20 AM »
Should we return Kaliningrad? Seems like "history" and "justice" would dictate that it be returned if we hope to make a case for Krim.

You should add the third component,  declaration of will of the people. Are we're going to decide their fate, you and me, not asking them?  :)

Quote
If you truly believe in the principle of referendums alone deciding allegiance, then perhaps we should revisit the Chechen situation.

If you raised the Chechen situation as an argument you must approve the war in Chechnya as the legitimate way to settle similar disputes. Chechya is the case we have to avoid, not to reproduce.
I would like more the ruling of the International Court of Justice on Kosovo's declaration of independence in2010.  Do you recognize its ruling as legitimate?

Quote
Swamp land it was, and the deaths of many a serf built that beautiful city. The LAND is what we were talking about, and that you know also.  :)

No, we're talking about men, people, not land. Or if you want, we're talking about swamp land with buried there tens of thousands of Russian serfs.

Offline Doll

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« Reply #946 on: December 15, 2014, 04:32:33 AM »
Should Russia hand back the Kuban region that was exchanged for Krym?
If prople vote for it but they won't 100%

Offline Doll

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« Reply #947 on: December 15, 2014, 04:33:52 AM »

As protests in Europe go 3,500 is a tiny number.  Insignifigant would be an understatement. 

Doll you should read the latest poll results regarding German public opinion about Russia.  Overall most Germans approve of the way that Angela Merkel has handled the crisis and they distrust Russia.
Most of Germans? Prove it

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« Reply #948 on: December 15, 2014, 04:43:59 AM »

Offline Doll

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« Reply #949 on: December 15, 2014, 05:05:15 AM »
Called my kids in Russia- they say things are not that bad
Real estate market is crazy- people are buying more than before

 

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