My view of the war

[fathertime]

For sure in the past, long before Uncle Ronnie declared the CCCP as the "Evil Empire."  In the post-CCCP era,  I would have thought that the US wanted a stronger and more open and democratic Russia.  Now that Putin is showing his true colors, the relationship could become more and more adversarial. 




The CIA indeed secretly spent $2-4 billion in the 1980s  funding the Afghan mujahedin's fight against the Soviets.  Charlie Wilson's War is an excellent read explaining how one congressman, a CIA mid-level agent and a Texas socialite were instrumental in defeating the Soviets by sending advanced weapons to the freedom fighters. 


Remember, these were Cold War days and the Soviets were our largest nemesis.  Plus, the hawks in Congress wanted some revenge for what the Soviets did to America in supporting Ho Chi Minh.   

The Congressional funding was very small, starting at $5 million/yr and eventually reaching $500 million/yr.   The Soviets were spending substantially more (cost of helicopter vs. cost of stinger missile, plus the Mujahedin fought for free).  The Soviet defeat in Afghanistan together with Uncle Ronnie's spending on Star Wars, etc. accelerated the collapse of Soviet empire. 

Just think, if America had not done that, the Soviet system perhaps would still be in place and you never would have met all those Slavic women.

It is nice that there's a lot of beautiful women for you all BUT the country of Afghanistan is a gawd awful place now that WE 'secretly spent' billions to arm the afghans...they would have been better off under Soviet rule.  Similarly in Ukraine we can start armong them folks too, and create another Afghanistan. ..since the reality is  US strategists would find that to be a better outcome then it being Russian influenced. As mich as our representatives pretend, they don't actually care one iota about Nikoli Q. Ukrainian and those buying into anything else are mistaken

Fathertime!

[LiveFromUkraine]

Perhaps I'm a bit slow on the uptake but, you'd need to expand on that a bit for me as I'm not following you. The Afghan invasion was a result of the Taliban's harboring of OBL and the Al Queda training camps. There wasn't anything economical about it unless you count the increased Poppy Trade. IIRC

As for the first part. Why in your opinion would the West or the U.S. in general need Russia to be or appear weaker? The U.S. gubmint itself is knowingly destroying the dollar and dismantling the military. Why would there be any emphasis on Russian strength considering what they are doing to themselves? What would it matter?

My take is, it doesn't and the U.S. isn't involved or plying anything to Russia. Putin is making his moves in order to build perception of his/Russia's strength because of what the U.S. is doing. Don't you think it possible that any U.S. involvement is minimal and NOT a result of U.S. intervention?

FP, as Gator mentioned, I was referring to the Soviet Afghan war that was prompted by US involvement.


Russia is still a political threat to US interests.  I think that is a good thing.  We need checks and balances in place.   Putin was looking rather good being able to deal with Syria and making Obama look, well, like Obama. 


Not soon after, Putin is now looking rather sad, on the international front.  Interesting timing nevertheless.


 Of course this is Putin's own doing, but that doesn't mean there wasn't a little prodding from the western countries.  Sort of like how the US prodded the Soviets into a war.  As to how much the west was involved, it's all speculation, but I do think they played a bigger role than most here believe.


IMO, I would say one of the biggest threat to the US is replacing the dollar as the world currency.  Something Russia has been very vocal about and no doubt will continue to be.

[Faux Pas]

FP, as Gator mentioned, I was referring to the Soviet Afghan war that was prompted by US involvement.

Okay, I had misunderstood which Afghan war you were referring. That war was a different time, different climate (cold war) and not over any direct economical interest but, retribution for the Soviet's involvement in other U.S. interests. It could also be noted that the USSR/Afghan war was the straw in the camels back of the USSR

Russia is still a political threat to US interests.  I think that is a good thing.  We need checks and balances in place.   Putin was looking rather good being able to deal with Syria and making Obama look, well, like Obama. 


Not soon after, Putin is now looking rather sad, on the international front.  Interesting timing nevertheless.

Putin, being the opportunist he is, seized the opportunity over Syria. He did make Obama look bad and on the heel of a successful Olympiad. My contention before the rockets ever fired in Ukraine and the Maiden protest in full, that it could easily be an opportune time and place for Obama to return the favor. Speaking mostly out of my ass btw. The facts of the matter are, Obama isn't that smart and no interest. Did someone else take the initiative? Possibly, but highly unlikely. The Black Ops and CIA work and play by their own rules answering to no one. The question none of you conspiracy theorists have been able to answer is "why"?


 

Of course this is Putin's own doing, but that doesn't mean there wasn't a little prodding from the western countries.  Sort of like how the US prodded the Soviets into a war.  As to how much the west was involved, it's all speculation, but I do think they played a bigger role than most here believe.


IMO, I would say one of the biggest threat to the US is replacing the dollar as the world currency.  Something Russia has been very vocal about and no doubt will continue to be.

You folks are giving Obama way too much credit. Could they have dropped a 500 million check to foment Maiden? Sure but, they didn't. Has that much been spent in/on Ukraine since 2008? No doubt, doesn't mean it fueled civil conflict or war. If the truth be known, most of that money wound up in Yanko's and Putin's accounts.

Putin and a dozen other countries have been trying to replace the dollar as the world reserve for years. It will never happen. Removing the U.S. from the worlds economy is a certain collapse for the world economy. A mere shart of the U.S. economy fills the world's britches with shit. The only thing that can replace it, and that is by design btw, is a one world currency. Which no doubt is on the way and even then, the U.S. economy will be the driver.

Obama isn't that clever

[Muzh]

Many families and friends become enemies. Russia is totally controlled by Putin and he seems to have completely brainwashed the entire population much like it was done in the USSR. It is ludicrous to see that Russians know better what is going on in Ukraine and refer to their television as proof. They tell me something is going on in Odessa and I should watch TV. I tell them that I actually live there and I can simply go outside and see for myself but they know better anyway... They lost everything: logic, common sense, conscience, dignity. All they know is there are fascists in Ukraine, the Russian language is oppressed, the Crimea is Russian, Putin is god, Russia is raising from her knees thanks to Putin... etc... It is absolutely impossible to talk to them: whatever you say, they have the only argument: your government is brainwashing you, you lost your brain, you should watch Russian TV channels. It is funny that what they say applies to themselves actually very well. They are true zombies.


The Russian language is not oppressed in Ukraine. I speak only Russian and I am still alive. But they don’t believe me and tell me to watch Россия-24.


The Crimea is part of Ukraine. Russia confirmed it 3 times: in 1991, 1994 and 1997 in international treaties. Besides, the Crimea has been part of Ukraine since 1954, when the Soviet government realized that having an island attached to the Russian Federation was not convenient, and a Ukrainian peninsula would do better. But a lot of Ukrainian land went to Russia in exchange, in particular southern regions on the border. But they say the Crimea is Russian and refer to the referendum where only a third of the population actually voted.


We have a legitimate government. They say the Ukrainian government is a Junta while in fact it was only the president who fled (of course, to Russia), and the parliament had been elected in 2012, before the events. The real junta is in the Kremlin.


Our army is fighting Russian troops in the East. But they say the Ukrainian troops are... invaders in their own country and the Russian army is not there. It is difficult to answer this outrageous and ridiculous rubbish.


They also claim that it is local militia who are fighting the Ukrainian army with the weapons seized from it while it is the Russian army with their modern heavy arms. If the militia had seized anything they ran out of it months ago!


Many Ukrainians find it very difficult to talk to people like that. So I stopped talking to most of my Russian friends. I even stopped talking to my relatives. That’s the case with so many people.

Wow, I have heard the same, almost verbatim, from my wife relating to her relatives living in Russia.


When my inlaws would tell them of events happening a few minutes away, these relatives  would accuse them of lying because that was NOT what they saw on Russian TV.


Sad indeed.

[Muzh]

There was a very good discussion on Faheed Zakaria GPS this morning.  Many of the panel members agree that Russia cares most..supplying weapons to Ukraine is a fool's errand and will lead to many more dead bodies and Russia will still take what it wants.  I think the west would like to keep stirring things up since to this point it has gone Russia's way...our strategists probably view the dead Ukrainians as an acceptable price to put a thorn in Russia's side.

Fathertime!

DUDE!!!!


I had no idea you are related to Neville Chamberlain.

[Muzh]

It is nice that there's a lot of beautiful women for you all BUT the country of Afghanistan is a gawd awful place now that WE 'secretly spent' billions to arm the afghans...they would have been better off under Soviet rule.  Similarly in Ukraine we can start armong them folks too, and create another Afghanistan. ..since the reality is  US strategists would find that to be a better outcome then it being Russian influenced. As mich as our representatives pretend, they don't actually care one iota about Nikoli Q. Ukrainian and those buying into anything else are mistaken

Fathertime!

OMG!!!


What a moronic statement!!!!!!


Waaaaaaayyyyyyyyy out in left field.

[Stirlitz]

When my inlaws would tell them of events happening a few minutes away, these relatives  would accuse them of lying because that was NOT what they saw on Russian TV.

We have a joke here.
Someone from Russia is calling his friends in Odessa and asks: "What’s the weather like there?" They answer: "Sunny and warm". He says: "Well I can see how badly brainwashed you are by your junta. I've just heard on television  that it is raining in Odessa!"

[AC]

If Putin wants Ukraine, he can try. But I would rather die than see Ukraine become part of Russia. I am ready to fight.It is Europe who must take steps first of all, not the USA. This is what Ukrainians are very unhappy with.In this case it is very dangerous. History repeats. Russia is moving with great steps to the Nazism. Well I would even admit that Nazism has already conquered Russia, but fortunately, we do not see the death camps yet. The rest is very typical of the Nazism though: oppression of free speech, persecution of those who disagree with Putin, proclaiming one nation as the best nation superior to others, aggression against neighboring nations, utter lies in the mass media... more to come.A lot. I lost ALL business in the Crimea. I still has some business in Odessa and the rest of Ukraine but this year I only had 3 (THREE) customers: in February, May and August. Don’t ask me how I survive. Before the war, I had a lot of tourists, I was giving city tours in Odessa, Yalta and Sevastopol besides guiding customers around Ukraine. But after the Russian occupation of the Crimea cruise ships stopped going there. Then, the FSB had a set-up in Odessa on the 2nd of May, and tourists stopped going to Odessa too.

www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/09/to-understand-putin-read-orwell-110551.html

Do you believe that Putin planned the Odessa Massacre?


http://www.nationalreview.com/article/377818/did-putin-plan-odessa-massacre-robert-zubrin

[LiveFromUkraine]

Putin and a dozen other countries have been trying to replace the dollar as the world reserve for years. It will never happen. Removing the U.S. from the worlds economy is a certain collapse for the world economy. A mere shart of the U.S. economy fills the world's britches with shit. The only thing that can replace it, and that is by design btw, is a one world currency. Which no doubt is on the way and even then, the U.S. economy will be the driver.

Obama isn't that clever

Yeah, I hear you about how intertwined the whole world is with the US being the focal point.  I do think, after the last economic disaster, countries will start pushing to hedge themselves away from the US. 


That is what saved us, as far as I'm concerned.  Everything fell with us and nothing was able to replace the dollar.  I don't think it will last forever. 


Here's a forbes article talking about the China-Russia deal and how they are bypassing the petrodollar.


http://www.forbes.com/sites/energysource/2014/05/29/the-colder-war-and-the-end-of-the-petrodollar/


Is it the start to things to come?  There is no secret the BRICS countries were discussing getting away from the dollar before all of this happened.  I would say these are things that the US would get politically involved in order to stop. 

[southernX]

Wow, I have heard the same, almost verbatim, from my wife relating to her relatives living in Russia.


When my inlaws would tell them of events happening a few minutes away, these relatives  would accuse them of lying because that was NOT what they saw on Russian TV.


Sad indeed.

stirlitz , thank you for the same info we are getting from family there  in ukraines s/east as well
we have not yet stopped talking with our family in russia , however we have agreed not to talk about putin or his actions , or it COULD  tear us apart

SX

[Gator]

.....BUT the country of Afghanistan is a gawd awful place now that WE 'secretly spent' billions to arm the afghans...

We made it gawd awful?  I was there briefly in 1977 before the Soviet military was invited by the pro-Soviet government.  Once in Afghanistan I decided I did not need to travel any more because I had reached the end of the world.   

.......they would have been better off under Soviet rule.

I will not call you a moron, because I know you are not stupid.  Yet this post shows how much you love to shoot from the hip. 

Please research the number of countries who were under the CCCP thumb or had close political-economic-military ties with the CCCP.   Now compare how far those countries have progressed after the Soviets departed vs. how they progressed while receiving Soviet aid and assistance.  I will wait for your stellar examples of the advantages of having close ties with the Soviets. 

Regarding Afghanistan, my guess it will be the same regardless of who is the leader in Kabul.  Here is a quick summary of the period when the Soviet deployed their military and fought a war against the freedom fighters:

-  In a popular rebellion, President I had overthrown the monarchy in 1973.  He was  slowly turning away from communism, and  was murdered (along with his family) in 1978.   

-  A Marxist assumed the presidency (President II) and he quickly developed close relations with the Soviets and started a program of  Soviet-style reforms.  This created rebellion and President II asked for Soviet military support, yet little came. 
President II was soon overthrown and killed in 1979.   

-  The new president (President III) faced an even larger rebellion by his countrymen and was killed by the Soviets in 1979, essentially coinciding with full deployment of Soviet military forces in Afghanistan in December 1979. 

Also, between the murder of President I and President II, the US Ambassador to Afghanistan was murdered.  You can look up the details about the number of deaths.

What a country!  It is best left alone provided they do not harbor the likes of OBL.

[Drew]

When my inlaws would tell them of events happening a few minutes away, these relatives  would accuse them of lying because that was NOT what they saw on Russian TV.

In addition to other generalities about Russians, it can be added that they are fools as demonstrated by the above.

Any normal people would certainly believe what a good relative tells them about what is happening in the relative's local area.

I was once in a city where a major riot occurred.  It was serious, but still contained within a relatively small area.  Several friends called me to express concern because the TV channels had the entire city burning and everyone in danger.  They urged me to leave as soon as possible.

But my friend's minds were quickly eased when I assured them this was not the case.

Also, it is not like the Russian people don't know from past experience that they have been lied to over and over again by news organs.

Since they continue to believe, it can only be concluded it is a nation of fools.

Sugar coat it all you want to and claim your friends and relatives are exceptions; but then you are just fooling yourselves.

[fathertime]

I found this nice opinion piece on the net today:  Here are a couple excerpts:


The agreement just forged between Russia’s Vladimir Putin and Petro Poroshenko, the Ukrainian president, is acknowledged all around as the design Putin suddenly proposed when he got off a plane in Mongolia late last week. In all likelihood, this was the outcome of protracted talks Putin has held in secret with German Chancellor Angela Merkel. -
[/size][/color]


[/size]How can this be?  Botheius said that all negotiations  were  recorded and transcribed.  How could there be 'secret meetings'?   Looks like she was wrong, AGAIN![/color]


[/size]Another excerpt:[/color]

[/size]Third, Obama’s Washington has misread the Ukrainians. Poroshenko stunned E.U. heads of state in Wales when he disclosed that one NATO member is already arming Kiev with high-tech weapons. He didn’t name it, but the top candidates include the U.S. and Poland.[/b][/size][/color]
[/size]Equally, it is out in the open at last that the war in the east has been fought not inconsiderably by overtly neo-Nazi militias, the very folk we were told for months were nothing but the conjuring of overheated Russian propagandists. The Wikipedia entry on the Azov Battalion, including images of the National Socialist flag it flies, is disturbing to put it mildly. Take a look at them in Saturday’s New York Times. Should Obama, Kerry, and Vice-President Biden be tangled up with professed anti-Semites who wear black ski masks in battle?[/b][/size][/color]



[/size]Wow I hadn't really believed that there was such a large group of Neo Nazi's in Ukraine but it seems there might actually be according to this article AND the New York times.  [/color]

[/size]Here are the links:[/color]

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Columns/2014/09/08/Mess-Obama-Made-Way-So-Called-Ceasefire-Ukraine


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/06/world/europe/ukraine-cease-fire.html?_r=0


Fathertime! 

[fathertime]

We made it gawd awful?  I was there briefly in 1977 before the Soviet military was invited by the pro-Soviet government.  Once in Afghanistan I decided I did not need to travel any more because I had reached the end of the world.   


I will not call you a moron, because I know you are not stupid.  Yet this post shows how much you love to shoot from the hip. 

Please research the number of countries who were under the CCCP thumb or had close political-economic-military ties with the CCCP.   Now compare how far those countries have progressed after the Soviets departed vs. how they progressed while receiving Soviet aid and assistance.  I will wait for your stellar examples of the advantages of having close ties with the Soviets. 

Well Gator, Afghanistan couldn't have turned out much worse...had they been under the Soviet reign, it wouldn't have been paradise, but I don't think it would be any worse then it has been over the past 20 years.  If we could 'secretly arm' the Afghans with billions of dollars in the the early 1980's there is no telling how much we could have secretly given to groups in Ukraine....obviously Russia shouldn't trust anything much we say.  If the opportunity arises and we arm the Ukrainians, the Russians will absolutely mercilessly slaughter them...and we will have caused it again.  I feel they need to negotiate the most reasonably decent deal they can get, as it is the best they can do, given the circumstances...unless the world would like another Afghanistan-like country.   And you know what?  More and more people (outside of this website) and the trembling Russiaphobes are agreeing with what I've been saying all along.   


Fathertime!   

[Boethius]

How can this be?  Botheius said that all negotiations  were  recorded and transcribed.  How could there be 'secret meetings'?   Looks like she was wrong, AGAIN!

No, you are misrepresenting what I posted, again.  We were discussing the Minsk meeting, in particular.  I stated that the negotiations at the Minsk meeting were recorded (see link).  But, I'm not surprised.  Initially, I ascribed your misrepresentations to lack of character.   Now I realize you just don't have the grey power to understand what is going on (and I mean that with the greatest respect).

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17979.msg375560#msg375560

Incidentally, even if there were secret meetings between Merkel and Putin, the discussions re those meetings also are recorded for posterity.  For example, the Vatican, and particularly Pope John Paull II,  played a critical role in hastening the demise of the USSR.    There were numerous secret letters, and conversations, between the Vatican, the UK, and the US.  None of that was known at the time, but the contents of some correspondence (with a notation others remained top secret) were released after Pope John Paul's death.  But, in these cases, what will form the record are likely notes, either of the principals or aides, rather than a transcription of formal negotiations.

Please post all those posts where I have been proven wrong.

As for neo Nazis, well, of course, since you know next to nothing of Ukraine,  you would believe the propaganda that the country is teeming with neo Nazis.  It isn't.  Svoboda is a fascist party.  Pravyi Sekhtor (whose members form the Azov Battalion) is not.

[LiveFromUkraine]

In addition to other generalities about Russians, it can be added that they are fools as demonstrated by the above.

If only Russians were as smart as your fellow Americans, eh?

[fathertime]

No, you are misrepresenting what I posted, again.  We were discussing the Minsk meeting, in particular.  I stated that the negotiations at the Minsk meeting were recorded (see link).  But, I'm not surprised.  Initially, I ascribed your misrepresentations to lack of character.   Now I realize you just don't have the grey power to understand what is going on (and I mean that with the greatest respect).

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17979.msg375560#msg375560

Incidentally, even if there were secret meetings between Merkel and Putin, the discussions re those meetings also are recorded for posterity.  For example, the Vatican, and particularly Pope John Paull II,  played a critical role in hastening the demise of the USSR.    There were numerous secret letters, and conversations, between the Vatican, the UK, and the US.  None of that was known at the time, but the contents of some correspondence (with a notation others remained top secret) were released after Pope John Paul's death.  But, in these cases, what will form the record are likely notes, either of the principals or aides, rather than a transcription of formal negotiations.

Please post all those posts where I have been proven wrong.

As for neo Nazis, well, of course, since you know next to nothing of Ukraine,  you would believe the propaganda that the country is teeming with neo Nazis.  It isn't.  Svoboda is a fascist party.  Pravyi Sekhtor (whose members form the Azov Battalion) is not.

Nice try, but I've been saying all along that the leaders are meeting privately and hashing out terms....while you are insisting that everything is 'recorded and transcribed' because you have 'two independent sources' blah blah....as usual you are incorrect....the real meat of the meetings is happening privately behind closed doors...YOU should know that. 


Fathertime!   

[/size]No, you are misrepresenting what I posted, again.  We were discussing the Minsk meeting, in particular.  I stated that the negotiations at the Minsk meeting were recorded (see link).  But, I'm not surprised.  Initially, I ascribed your misrepresentations to lack of character.   Now I realize you just don't have the grey power to understand what is going on (and I mean that with the greatest respect).[size=78%][/color]

Yeah right,  and at first I thought you were just a little corrupted by the system that you grew up under....and actually I still think that...I say this of course with the 'greatest respect'.


Fathertime!   

[Gator]

 I feel they need to negotiate the most reasonably decent deal they can get, as it is the best they can do, given the circumstances...unless the world would like another Afghanistan-like country.   And you know what?  More and more people (outside of this website) and the trembling Russiaphobes are agreeing with what I've been saying all along.   
 

You are delusional.  Please read the insightful posts by Stirlitz to understand what is at stake. 

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17913.msg375759#msg375759

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17913.msg375731#msg375731

Based on your position Fathertime, it is clear to me that you would have negotiated with the Japanese after Pearl Harbor, knowing that defeating the Japanese would have cost hundreds of thousands of American lives. 

Or you would suggest that Stalin should have capitulated to the Nazis. 

Most men are not such cowards, especially when it is their country. 

[lordtiberius]

Stirlitz,

1) Did you know there were so many experts about your country and they have never even visited?

2) Is the fifth column still active?

3) views on the cease fire?

FWIW, I am ashamed my country has not done more for Ukraine. 

[fathertime]

You are delusional.  Please read the insightful posts by Stirlitz to understand what is at stake. 

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17913.msg375759#msg375759

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17913.msg375731#msg375731

Based on your position Fathertime, it is clear to me that you would have negotiated with the Japanese after Pearl Harbor, knowing that defeating the Japanese would have cost hundreds of thousands of American lives. 

Or you would suggest that Stalin should have capitulated to the Nazis. 

Most men are not such cowards, especially when it is their country.

Well then let them fight if that is what they want to do....  Bringing up the Japanese and Stalin are two different situations.  Those were close to even fights.  This will be a trouncing with a lot of dead Ukrainian bodies....It is DELUSIONAL for you to think otherwise.  Russia is clearly going all-in.


Fathertime!   

[lordtiberius]

Russia has invaded Ukraine? 




No

That can't be!

[Stirlitz]

Do you believe that Putin planned the Odessa Massacre?

Yes I do. He may not have done this personally but it was clearly an FSB job. It was an obvious set-up. First pro-Russian thugs unexpectedly and unprovokedly attack a peaceful demonstration in the city center killing a few people with Kalashnikov rifles and injuring many others with clubs and missiles. All of Odessa is outraged and raises to crush them. The police is not doing anything. But the Odessites manage to defeat the Russians in the city center. Then people head for the separatist camp in a big square next to the train station (this place had been a problem for Odessa for two months, its inhabitants were notorious for being drunk and aggressive), but instead of dispersing and fleeing, the separatists entrench in the building in the center of the square and continue shooting at the advancing infuriated Ukrainians adding to their fury. Originally people just wanted to remove the camp from the square but they had to storm the building. It is a fact that the Russian leaders persuaded ordinary separatists to lock in the building and then went to the roof where they were safe. I guess if they had just told everybody to flee, there would have been much fewer casualties. But they did not only shoot from the roof but also threw Molotov coctails. It is hard to say whose coctail started the fire but playing with the fire is dangerous and those who live in a glass home should not throw stones, eh? It is also a mystery why so many people died in the building which did not burn to ashes, had long and wide corridors and stairs. There are theories that there were FSB officers inside who put some people to sleep using chloroform or something else, and the people simply died of carbon dioxide. The Nord-Ost tradegy comes to mind where many people also died of some gas. But it is just a theory. I personally saw a lot of gas mask filters in the destroyed camp in the square. Something is just wrong there, and an old saying suggests to see who profits. Putin had long claimed that Russians were oppressed in Ukraine, so this story fits him perfectly.
So it is absolutely clear to me that it was a set-up to frame pro-Ukrainian activists and the Kiev government. By whom — by the FSB of course that is Putin. I have been there so I saw it with my own eyes. What’s more, I had been to the separatists camp before, in March, when I tried to have a discussion with the opponents and find a common ground. I found out though that there was no one to talk to there both literally and figuratively. They did not want to talk, and I got an impression there were only idiots there at least in the ranks. So no wonder they were easy to be driven into the building like sheep even though it was obvious it was a trap. But those who drove them inside must have had a goal, and this goal seems to have been a success. Basically, what happened in Odessa is not different in essence from what is going on in the east when the terrorists kill people and there are Russian journalists there in a jiffy reporting of "Ukrainian army shelling civilians". Sometimes the terrorist simply fire at the Ukrainian troops from living quarters to provoke reprisal fire, but it is safer for them to just shell living quarters themselves and blame the military. It is just an order from the FSB to create a certain image that "Ukrainians are kiiling Russians".

This is a common practice against Ukraine actually. I met a girl here in Odessa who had fled from Lugansk and she told me that when they saw a Russian journalist close to a neighborhood it was a sign that this neighborhood would be very soon shelled by the separatists. You may find it difficult to believe that the separatists shell their own city and perhaps their own homes but even when there was peace, those drunkards and drug-addicts did not care, and why would they care if they are paid? However, the commanders were Russian, so they cared even less.
The Russians shot down Boing 777 with the same purpose. It was not a mistake. They did it on purpose.

Putin has many goals:

1. Destruction of Ukraine.
2. Showing Russians that it is bad to topple your government however corrupted it is.
3. Getting rid of potential domestic revolutionaries who go to fight in Ukraine thinking that they are fighting against Nazism (most of them are brainwashed).
4. Preventing Ukraine from fracking in the Donbass region and thus eliminating the need to import gas from Russia.
5. etc.So, everything is good to achieve his goals. Even purposeful killing of his Ukrainian admirers just to say the Ukrainian government did that and justify his actions against Ukraine in the eyes of his people. In 1999 he ordered to blow residential buildings in Russia when he needed a reason for another Chechen war killing innocent Russians, so why would he have pity for Ukrainains?

In addition to other generalities about Russians, it can be added that they are fools as demonstrated by the above.

I have also come to this conclusion. The more I hear what ordinary Russians say about it, the more I am persuaded that idiocy is a wide-spread disease among them. It could have been games before the end of August but now it is clear that Russia is waging a war against Ukraine. It does not matter if the war was not proclaimed. Hitler did not declare a war on the USSR in 1941 either. It is absolutely astonishing to see people who refuse to acknowledge the obvious but gladly believe any idiotic statement providing they hear it from Russian television.

 

1) Did you know there were so many experts about your country and they have never even visited?

2) Is the fifth column still active?

3) views on the cease fire?

1) No.
2) Yes.
3) Not sure but I feel that once regular Russian troops took over, we need a respite to regroup. Before it was Russian mercenaries and criminals with some local drunkards, now it is complete Russian regiments. Also, Poroshenko needs to look decent for the West and show that he is not a bloody-thirsty animal like Putin and does something for peace. Finally, we need to exchange prisoners and this is difficult during hostilities. However, after the previous cease-fire we made great progress.

[Chelseaboy]

Hmmm,not sure those "experts" on what is happening in Ukraine,namely FT,GQ,Manny and Shadow would agree with the postings of Stirlitz.It's significant none of those esteemed gentlemen  have responded to them....doesn't quite fit in with their perceived "wisdom".

However,there is hope even the most brainwashed can learn the reality of the real World.

I know a girl in Donetsk who was soooo pro-Russian ,blaming Ukraine and the west for everything.

After  months under pro-Russian seperatist occupation her views have completely changed after witnessing the horrors of life under them...reality has dawned on her.

I'd invite her to this forum,but after seeing how know-nothing pro-Russian western fools treat Boethius on here i won't subject her to that.

[Stirlitz]

You must live elsewhere to be an expert on Ukraine 
Well you can still be an expert on Ukraine if you live there. But only if you watch Russian television daily.
It’s notable that I also know quite a few people from Donetsk who are pro-Russian. Or were, because they used to talk so much about it and now they keep silent for some reason.

[Faux Pas]

In addition to other generalities about Russians, it can be added that they are fools as demonstrated by the above.

Any normal people would certainly believe what a good relative tells them about what is happening in the relative's local area.

I was once in a city where a major riot occurred.  It was serious, but still contained within a relatively small area.  Several friends called me to express concern because the TV channels had the entire city burning and everyone in danger.  They urged me to leave as soon as possible.

But my friend's minds were quickly eased when I assured them this was not the case.

Also, it is not like the Russian people don't know from past experience that they have been lied to over and over again by news organs.

Since they continue to believe, it can only be concluded it is a nation of fools.

Sugar coat it all you want to and claim your friends and relatives are exceptions; but then you are just fooling yourselves.

You should go back to your other persona. At least it showed a slither of intellect. Or perhaps this one, the obvious moron is really you?