What to do

[Trenchcoat]

Supply and demand

The reason that UK salaries are 50-60% less is that you want the government
to do all sorts of things for you. Or you allow the government to force businesses
to do things for you. Look at your price for petrol and it's the same story.

If you want higher wages tell the government to stay out of your life and tell them
to leave businesses alone. If you move to where the money is, you will make more
money. I don't want to read your excuses why you don't want to do this.
I don't care, I don't care, I don't care, I don't care, I don't care, I don't care! 

http://www.reed.co.uk/average-salary/average-plumber-salary-in-woodstock-oxfordshire
http://www.reed.co.uk/average-salary/average-plumber-salary-in-tonbridge
http://www.reed.co.uk/average-salary/average-plumber-salary-in-epsom

A lot of those headline averages aren't born out by the salaries on the site. Beneath one is a vacancy for £40-45k but odds are once you are in it, it will depend on how much work the hand for you as and when - UK Employers are like that, you only find out the whole deal once you go for interview/in the job. The often wang a little and the deal often isn't as good as the headline offering. It's not always out but the more lucrative looking the job the more likely it will be.

The £225,000 average one is probably a joke, someone inputting fake figures. I don't see it even in an expensive city like London.

Its true, if the government sold off the rest of what they had, NHS, Schools, etc, stopped paying companies to provide for services and more like the US told people they have to pay for their own medical care, school fees and provide for their own housing then taxes would be a lot less on individuals and businesses.

However, pay would likely, like in the US rise for the harder jobs and not so for the less hard work jobs. Therefore from where I am standing in a less hard work job my bread is best buttered how things presently are. Less social housing support would be ok as I own my own house but other than that I do better under the present system. No point me doing a harder job where I would end up paying more tax and there being not a lot of difference in pay as a result.

So there's the world the way we would like and the world the way is, I just roll with the way the world is at present in the UK. Otherwise I would be lining myself up for a beating in some hard work job needlessly and there is not much common sense in that.

[Trenchcoat]

Stay on topic.

Your question was why would I support a child entering the trades, I answered.
I didn't tell you to do it. I don't tell my kids to do stuff for the pussy you ______
(enter polite word for moron here).

If the guy is a brainiac and loves school then he should go in for one of the Stem fields.
Science, technology, engineering, and math OR a non Stem field like business. If he isn't
a brainiac or doesn't care for school then the trades and/or the military is the way to go.

There is the issue of what a child is best suited too and if a child has a specifically high skill naturally in something then that is probably the way to go. However concern for pussy must always form part of the thought process, what guy apart from gay guys want to scare of the women and end up in life stuck alone in a room alone.

I was pointing out that the trades aren't necessarily as likely a big win area as Financial Services might turn out to be. Read the forum reviews in the link I provided, most tell of excruciating back pain and agony working along awkward tight places. That is what I have found when doing Plumbing a lot of the time. I thought at the time, 'I wouldn't like to do this for a living'. Bill find an awkward plumbing job to do in your home and give it a try, and awkwardly tight underneath area, stuff where the nuts have ceased up, etc it's no joy.

It always makes me laugh when someone has one of those lightbulb💡 moments of what they think a good job is but has never tried it themselves or went online to check out the downsides lol.

[krimster2]

young people all wanna be "Urban Professionals" and not do manual labor
and that's why you make more cleanin Septic Tanks than in some accounting job
follow the money - people always gotta have workin septic tanks - you just be ready when they don't
knowin how to fix people's shitty problems is ALWAYS a way to make money
you let the Septic Tank ENTROPY work for you (septic tanks tend towards getting plugged with sheet) this ensures a continuous need for your services
your businesses MOTTO: NO SHIT!! WE'RE THE BEST!!!

[2tallbill]

A lot of those headline averages aren't born out by the salaries on the site. Beneath one is a vacancy for £40-45k but odds are once you are in it, it will depend on how much work the hand for you as and when - UK Employers are like that, you only find out the whole deal once you go for interview/in the job. The often wang a little and the deal often isn't as good as the headline offering. It's not always out but the more lucrative looking the job the more likely it will be.

Can anyone translate word salad to English?

How much work the hand = Me hand love you a long time?
The often wang a little = The Asian guy is not as well endowed?

[krimster2]

I wish I could be that young again...
asian women REALLY made me paranoid when I was 18/19, I didn't trust ANY of em
other dewds I served with had concubines, these were some greedy HO's and  not somethin I ever wanted, I could do my own laundry thank you

later, I met professional women in Shanghai when I was older, and had a completely different experience with asian women
a lotta Chinese women have a "white boy" fetish
THEY will come to you!!!!
especially the taller ones, what the Chinese call "Northerners"
they have this amazing white soft skin

[Daveman]

My first wife was, and perhaps still is, a stunningly gorgeous Filipina woman. Well, half since her dad is American.  Our problem was latent religion.  Yeah, we discussed all of that well before anything serious developed. Wasn't an issue until years after we were married and she decided to get back into the church, and that's fine -- but suddenly I needed to convert to Catholicism, and, attend mass all the time which simply wasn't going to happen. I went a few times a year, but that wasn't good enough.

The point of all of that is -- equally yoked. Asian religions vary greatly and may even lie dormant waiting to jump up and screw with you.

[Daveman]

...

Talking to the homely librarian or the cashier with 25 visible piercings,
or asking a little old lady wearing a head band if she was trying out
for the Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders gives you skills.
....

bwahahahah! I'm steeling that one...

[2tallbill]

bwahahahah! I'm steeling that one...

There was a little old lady holding up the line trying to get exact change out of her change purse.
So I said, "looks like we have another trouble-maker" that got a smile out of her, at the end she
asked, "do you know what I am going to do now? My first quip was "try out for the Rockettes?"
Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders was guess number two. 

[krimster2]

Entropy just isn't as GOOD as it used to be!

the dilemma of life in the USA for millenials
our children won't be following in our footsteps

everything east of the Volga River will have Chinese Postal Codes 30 years from now


http://twitter.com/i/status/1773745093968629821

[2tallbill]

the dilemma of life in the USA for millennials
our children won't be following in our footsteps


http://twitter.com/i/status/1773745093968629821

They have passportbros.com which is a website, not a forum. What
they do have is find a place to sell $85 hoodies and $59 tee-shirts.

They must know that they can't let the incels and the do nothing
day dreamers chat in public. Nobody will read 10 Trenchcoats ramble
incoherently about how he can't get out of bed and go to the gym. 
That would cause nobody to buy a hoodie.

They try to send people to an Asian woman MOB type site. My wife
will not be happy if I was checking it out so I could report back.
 
http://www.theofficialpassportbros.com/

[krimster2]

the usual 'Disclaimer'

i'm nothing more than a figment of someone's hyper-active narkotika fueled imagination, nothing I SAY HERE is remotely REAL or even TRUE
i'm even lying to you, right NOW!

yes!
that's right!!!  I'm a Space Cowboy!
and here's a TWIST!!!!
I don't really even EXIST!!!

or, what the hell, let's just call it an artistic expression of pharmacologically induced fiction from a Schizoid Sociopath and be more real, awright?
I just gotta say, "TWO WORDS" to you!!!
UNIQUE PERSPECTIVE!!

Space Exploration?

I always thought EVERYONE understood I'm a GIGANTIC TROLL who lives under an intensely foul smelling Troll Bridge (the worst most decrepit lookin Troll Bridge EVER!)
for me, this board's greatest pleasure, has been using it as a fertile ground for picking off dumb asses tryin to walk on top of that bridge for nothing more than my own personal amusement and schadenfreude
plus the odd loose change that falls outta their pockets!

and he who waits for dumb asses on RWD, never has very long  to wait...

I think that providing RWD Readers with a Sociopath's perspective will be beneficial to those Readers who are more 'neurotypical'
and for them, this will be a 'fresh perspective' more 'edgy

let she who is without sin, cast the first stone of judgement upon me, Mea Culpa!!!
but it's NOT a matter of guilt/innocence or right/wrong...
it's FAR BEYOND THAT!!!
but none of you can understand
Good People Always Think That They're Right

[2tallbill]

However concern for pussy must always form part of the thought process, what guy apart
from gay guys want to scare of the women and end up in life stuck alone in a room alone.

Your lack of social skills, never ceases to amaze me.

Answer:

1. You study a profession in which you make money.
2. If you study nursing to get some of both. You will be never be rich but you
will be surrounded by women for the rest of your days. Never take or accept
a job to be a broke ass. That is women repellent.

Nursing, 86% of them are women. You will be surrounded by them for the
rest of your days.

$87-130K in Austin TX
http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/austin-registered-nurse-salary-SRCH_IL.0,6_IM60_KO7,23.htm


I am not a politically correct even a tiny little bit, but try to stop calling women, chicks and/or pussy.

I don't know why you go down these trails instead of
1. Finishing your house
2. Learning Russian
3. Hitting the gym

Procrastination/fantasy is not better than living real life.

[2tallbill]

Bill find an awkward plumbing job to do in your home and give it a try,

That is level 1 easy, part of remodeling/repair plumbing. Compare that to being in a
crawl space under the floor with raw sewage.

Stick to your point or admit you were wrong.

Your original point was "Blue collar jobs suck" and women don't like men who do that.
My point is that you have ZERO idea. You don't know what you don't know AND you
are wrong.

[Bee Farmer]

Then the US must be a very different place to the UK. I know you could get more money over there, but that much!!!

What a shame I don't have US citizenship and no way to get it, or likely a work visa. I would be over there in a great hurry, work a few years then retire back to the UK & buy a holiday home somewhere warm in the winter. Literally $150k is like stockbroker/celebrity money over here, even $80k is very good money, way above average. To hell with it, it would be worth me coming over and staying over illegally! No Immigration guys are going to be looking for white dudes, so long as I keep my nose clean and stay under the radar I would unlikely be picked up. If you had told me this when first coming on here I would be sorted money wise now lol.

You sound like a girl in a poverty stricken country...I wonder how some poor, poverty stricken girl from an FSU country could find a way to America and a better life?

You do have a way to get to America.  Become a mail order bridegroom.

You find some lonely American woman to sponsor you and marry you.  Now, you're going to need to be out of her league for her to consider you.  So that means you need to look for women 15-20 years older than you.  You're going to need to be more attractive than the lady...so look for fat, ugly women in the 350-400 pound range, as no self-respecting American man is going to want a 60 year old obese woman.  Of course, you have to persuade her into thinking that you will always be faithful to her, and never dump her for a hotter girl if you get the chance.

You might have to swallow your pride, but if you can deal with her for 2 years until you can get your green card...you have it made in America.  Or you could claim domestic violence right away, and get an immediate green card.  And she will have to financially support you for 10 years too.

Look at the bright side.  She's going to think you have a sexy, exotic accent...and there is no language barrier since you both speak English.  The culture is still fairly similar since they are both Western countries.

Why didn't you think of this - being a boy toy for some obese old sugar mama in America instead of dreaming of tricking some FSU hottie into thinking you were her ticket to a better life?

[Trenchcoat]

That is level 1 easy, part of remodeling/repair plumbing. Compare that to being in a
crawl space under the floor with raw sewage.

Stick to your point or admit you were wrong.

Your original point was "Blue collar jobs suck" and women don't like men
who do that. My point is that you have ZERO idea. You don't know what you don't know AND
you are wrong.

You just proved my point Beel, yes Blue Collar jobs like plumbing suck because as you put it, you have to crawl under a crawl space under the floor with raw sewage.

I've crawled under a crawl space, fortunately there was no raw sewage but the floor was off earth so it was mucky and stinky all the same. I did plumbing work down there, I did it but it was not a joy nor somewhere I would like to be.

Your data for Nursing suggests similar money to plumbing but without the ordeals if getting mucky and dirty, agonising tight awkward spaces for your hands to work in, painful cuts & bruises and being badgered by people on the phone and through email all day many of whom will be wasting your time and just go with the cheapest. You also won't have the pain in the ass of buying a van, tools, having to buy materials all of the time, insurance, running around in it, saving up to buy another one when it needs replacing and doing accounts for the taxman who will view you as another potential tax dodger from the get go due to the stereotypes of tradesmen dodging taxes.

I'm sure nursing and many other jobs/careers have their downsides too but they likely don't stack up as badly as the above, and of course there are many more downsides I haven't mentioned many of which appear on that forum site I listed earlier on.

The problem is Beel is that you are looking at the trades through rose tinted specs, many do who have not done much of that work and/or had family members do that work. I have had both, once you are in touch with what goes on and the whole deal of it then you don't see it so good. I know I see tradesmen rock up and my local DIY stores in their beautifully painted sign written vans and the initial impression is, 'wow they get to run their own outfit, swan around at leisure, pop around and do a few jobs which must pay well due to the fancy van they drive plus get to be their own boss!'. The reality is behind the outward show is usually very different, the van & sign writting cost an arm and a leg and are in debt, they have to dash in and get the stuff quick as they are likely already behind
with the job, then they have their phone off with voicemail calls stacking up they have to get back too, they come to realise that they are stuck in that scene until they pay off the hefty loan for the van & tools, hopefully someone won't keep breaking into their van to nick the tools which the helpful buggers around seem to all too often do like it is their hobby.

If the guy is lucky he can bail out after a few years and retrain at something else. However if he has a Mortgage, Wife & Kids that are relying on that income then unless something else suitably paid comes forth that is reliable then he is stuck with that deal to his retirement/dying days.

It's people on the outside looking in that don't see the real life that these people endure in the trades. Sure things change a little over time, back a few decades ago most plumber dudes turned up in some old van, sign writting not so in vogue then. The plumbing systems were often more complex in residential houses with gravity fed systems of tubs and pipes running everywhere. Now it's often more straightforward with a combi boiler or similar pumping the water around, less pipes & complexity to understand. But it's still not a good deal, you can live in it as things stand due to lack of interest.

Here's the big thing - there is a lack of interest for a reason - it's crap. If it was good trust me everyone would be there, they always are as word gets around then that spoils it as pay falls away. The reason apprentices turn up in the US and then chuck it in after a few days is that they evaluate that it is crap and decide to move in quick before the get caught in it. They see that there are easier jobs around just as well paying. The rose tinted specs come off, they experience the muscle pain of awkward trying to get to it moments, they hear the guy training them bemoaning the ins & outs as above or they see it and they vote with their feet.

Always happens though, every once in a while you get 'the word' going around of,  'how well paid you can get in this or that job'. We had it here when we had a lorry driver shortage due to lack of training during the Coronavirus outbreak. Then after a few weeks of it people came forth with the reality of why lorry driving was not so good. The pay often like many jobs not as good in reality as was made out. Traffic jams meant you worked over unpaid, lack of service areas led to at least one driver pooing in a bag - nice All that and the HGV licence to drive lorries costing thousands with few Employers wanting to pay. On top of that all the usual problems of being stuck on the road 8-10 hours a day in a cab, each day, most days, boring, then any mess up leading to injury to a person risking you being thrown in jail, also risk of death to yourself whilst doing so much driving.

Electricians, roughly 0.2 percent of them die each year from electric shock. Each year you work as a Electrician the risk in theory mounts that you might send up as one of those years 0.2 percent.

Fancy a job in Sales knocking on people's doors instead?

[2tallbill]

You just proved my point Beel, yes Blue Collar jobs like plumbing suck because as you put it, you have to crawl under a crawl space under the floor with raw sewage.
Fancy a job in Sales knocking on people's doors instead?

New construction plumbers/electricians don't deal with that.

Top salesmen are typically the highest paid people in the company, business to business
not door to door.

You don't know what you don't know.

[Trenchcoat]

You sound like a girl in a poverty stricken country...I wonder how some poor, poverty stricken girl from an FSU country could find a way to America and a better life?

You do have a way to get to America.  Become a mail order bridegroom.

You find some lonely American woman to sponsor you and marry you.  Now, you're going to need to be out of her league for her to consider you.  So that means you need to look for women 15-20 years older than you.  You're going to need to be more attractive than the lady...so look for fat, ugly women in the 350-400 pound range, as no self-respecting American man is going to want a 60 year old obese woman.  Of course, you have to persuade her into thinking that you will always be faithful to her, and never dump her for a hotter girl if you get the chance.

You might have to swallow your pride, but if you can deal with her for 2 years until you can get your green card...you have it made in America.  Or you could claim domestic violence right away, and get an immediate green card.  And she will have to financially support you for 10 years too.

Look at the bright side.  She's going to think you have a sexy, exotic accent...and there is no language barrier since you both speak English.  The culture is still fairly similar since they are both Western countries.

Why didn't you think of this - being a boy toy for some obese old sugar mama in America instead of dreaming of tricking some FSU hottie into thinking you were her ticket to a better life?

In my younger days saving up some money and hot footing it over to the US could have been an option. Yes my accent could have swung it with a decent girl. I wouldn't go with a girl to use her for citizenship or anything I just don't do shitty things like that it's not the way I am and I would feel too bad. In theory in my younger days I might have got a decent US girl I was into then that would have been ok to be with her for that. However, many US girls are like UK girls in being so up themselves that I doubt even my accent could swing it.

Essentially none of what you mention for living in the US is necessary. I could live there as an illegal easily, passing under the radar as I'm a white guy. Especially if getting income from my house in the UK I would not even need to work there, a small studio or one bed flat somewhere cheap but decent would do. I would use public transport and avoid run ins with the law at all costs. A calm middle aged man decently dressed and minding his own business they wouldn't even think to check. It's the Hispanics that show up like a beacon to them and they are mird bothered with anyway. Besides it seems to be getting to the point in the US that there are so many illegals that they will just legalise them all. They are just getting too many and too much bother to deal with them all, just too big a problem. So anyone wanting US citizenship just be in the country when that happens. Trump was certainly against illegals with his wall and mag be again, but he will be out in four years time. Unless the situation is dramatically turned around in that time I see the legalisation of illegals as on the cards in the near future at some point.

Is it right to go the illegal route, no, but if their are labour needs and more pointedly if the illegals become so numerous as to take up too much resources to deal with it and become a constant pain in the ass occurrence in daily life as an issue all the authorities & services come up against then I can see the US government saying to hell with it. Anyone in the US can register to be a US citizen up to such & such a date and reset the illegal migration clock.

[Trenchcoat]

New construction plumbers/electricians don't deal with that.

Top salesmen are typically the highest paid people in the company, business to business
not door to door.

You don't know what you don't know.

How long do you wish to earn not so good money as a plumber or electrician on a residential construction site Bill?

It would get to a point where you see other jobs that earn the same or more money that you see as preferable. You then have the choice of do the harder self employed can man trades jobs to the general public on older houses, put up with your lot or move on.

Business to business is better than knocking on doors, it's likely an easier gig than being a tradesman, when you are done for the day you are done, you go home and haven't got countless email & voicemail to do and send out invoices, do accounts and any certifications to send out for the work you have done, gee what a fun evening, nearly every evening!

[Bee Farmer]

Trench,
  Like Bill says, "You don't know what you don't know."

Essentially none of what you mention for living in the US is necessary. I could live there as an illegal easily, passing under the radar as I'm a white guy. Especially if getting income from my house in the UK I would not even need to work there, a small studio or one bed flat somewhere cheap but decent would do. I would use public transport and avoid run ins with the law at all costs. A calm middle aged man decently dressed and minding his own business they wouldn't even think to check.

If you want to rent a studio or one bedroom apartment, they are going to check your ID and paperwork.  If you want to live in housing like an illegal, you have a friend/family who is in the US legally who rents a place, and then 10 illegals live in the one bedroom apartment with him.  What person with legal residency are you going to use to rent the place and let you live there?

Illegal immigrants have to work for cash jobs.  They will be doing plumbing work, in the crawl space in raw sewage, busting their knuckles because it is the only work they can get.

Only the biggest cities have public transportation.  America has very, very little public transport.

You will need a lot more money than renting out your house will provide you if you want to live in America unless you want to live in a homeless tent camp.

[Bee Farmer]

You just proved my point Beel, yes Blue Collar jobs like plumbing suck
The problem is Beel is that you are looking at the trades through rose tinted specs, many do who have not done much of that work and/or had family members do that work. I have had both, once you are in touch with what goes on and the whole deal of it then you don't see it so good.
 If it was good trust me everyone would be there, they always are as word gets around then that spoils it as pay falls away. The reason apprentices turn up in the US and then chuck it in after a few days is that they evaluate that it is crap and decide to move in quick before the get caught in it. They see that there are easier jobs around just as well paying.
I personally don't have any inclination to do plumbing work as I know it will be another case of once you get there you won't get nearly the money you hoped for and you'll get a load of bother you could do without,

I have a high school diploma, but I never went to college.  For a number of years, I have been working doing industrial maintenance.  If a guy is willing to work overtime, you can make $80k-$90k a year.  Sometimes I end up in crap working conditions, and I always have scrapes on my hands.
Not that long ago, I received a very basic certification for facilities maintenance which cost me $250.  (The exam was an open book test.)
I recently received a job offer.  I may end up doing some plumbing work like changing water pumps or working on the cooling towers.  I may have to change fuel filters and make sure the backup diesel generators are good to go.  I may have to change air filters in the air handlers on the roof.  I may have to change belts on fan motors.  If outside contractors are onsite, I may have to babysit them and escort them around the property.  I may have to change lightbulbs, or patch holes in drywall.  I may have to babysit a computer, and watch to make sure all the areas stay at the right temperatures and humidity.

This is a blue collar job.  I will end up with dirty hands sometimes.  I may have to work in awkward positions, and do plumbing work.
Even though I have 10 years as a machinist, and have another 10 years doing residential, farm, and industrial maintenance, I could never get this industry to call me for an interview until I got my $250 certification.  After I got the certificate, every place I applied to wanted me to interview.
I was offered an associate facilities technician job.  This is entry level, Level 1.
I am told that they will train me, and within 6 months to a year, I will be promoted to a regular facilities technician.

They are offering me a couple bucks an hour less than I have been making.  But they are offering me some company stock and bonuses to make up for it.  I'm pretty much at top pay where I am now, but this new place says I have potential to make more money eventually.  This company that offered me a job is notorious for down-leveling people, and bringing them in a level under where their skills are, to get them cheaper, and then promote them later.

The weird thing is, I didn't really interview for the job they offered me.  The company has facilities techs on the mechanical side that do a lot of HVAC stuff, and then they have techs on the electrical side.  I applied for the mechanical side, but they didn't have any mechanical openings so [unknown to me] the recruiter scheduled me for electrician interviews.  I had 4 different interviews to be an electrician.  During one of the later interviews, I asked why they were asking me all electrical questions, when I was interviewing for the mechanical side.  That's when I found out I had been scheduled to interview as an electrician. 
Then they decided they wanted to hire me, and I had another interview with someone to decide if I would be on the mechanical side or the electrical side.  The guy told me my 4 interviews to be an electrician don't matter.  They were not evaluating if I had the skills - if they are willing to interview you, they know you have skills they are looking for.  The interviews I went through are actually to decide if I am the kind of person they want to hire.  (They asked a few behavioral questions, tell me a time when...)  So we agreed that I would be a better fit on the mechanical side.  So then I had another interview to evaluate my HVAC knowledge and mechanical skills.  (I think this was to decide how much to offer me.)  It was a really bizarre interview process. 

Should I accept this job offer or decline it?

[Trenchcoat]

I have a high school diploma, but I never went to college.  For a number of years, I have been working doing industrial maintenance.  If a guy is willing to work overtime, you can make $80k-$90k a year.  Sometimes I end up in crap working conditions, and I always have scrapes on my hands.
Not that long ago, I received a very basic certification for facilities maintenance which cost me $250.  (The exam was an open book test.)
I recently received a job offer.  I may end up doing some plumbing work like changing water pumps or working on the cooling towers.  I may have to change fuel filters and make sure the backup diesel generators are good to go.  I may have to change air filters in the air handlers on the roof.  I may have to change belts on fan motors.  If outside contractors are onsite, I may have to babysit them and escort them around the property.  I may have to change lightbulbs, or patch holes in drywall.  I may have to babysit a computer, and watch to make sure all the areas stay at the right temperatures and humidity.

This is a blue collar job.  I will end up with dirty hands sometimes.  I may have to work in awkward positions, and do plumbing work.
Even though I have 10 years as a machinist, and have another 10 years doing residential, farm, and industrial maintenance, I could never get this industry to call me for an interview until I got my $250 certification.  After I got the certificate, every place I applied to wanted me to interview.
I was offered an associate facilities technician job.  This is entry level, Level 1.
I am told that they will train me, and within 6 months to a year, I will be promoted to a regular facilities technician.

Should I accept this job offer or decline it?

Are you the Janitor???  Yeerrr 

Sorry Beefarmer couldn't resist the joke

Yes, yes, definitely accept the job, in fact accept any job that gets you higher up the pecking order, you are already way, way behind where you should be in your career/life at this stage. The field you chose is up to you but in such Blue Collar work you DEFINITELY do NOT want to be at the bottom. That maintenance cert you should have gone for a while back then more so with whatever you need to get up that greasy pole.

I remember the kind words of BillyB a number of years ago on this Forum. He said something along the lines of, 'some guys in their forties/middle age think it's ok to work a job in fast food joint' that they haven't grown up and got with the mature situation that they should be in, in their life. Fast food jobs are for late teens & early twenties as are supermarket workers, and entry level blue collar jobs.

Beefarmer I mean this seriously and in an inoffensive manner, you have bumbled along so far in an entry level blue collar job, quite content I'm sure, but those jobs are for school leavers as you once were. You should have moved up the chain long ago by doing whatever you needed to but you were too content and happy enough bumbling along. I get it, but almost all you have achieved so far is any savings and buying of assets, house, etc. Sure a steady job where you are happy has something going for it but it looks like you could move up the chain and still have an easy enough going job. Just by learning a few new things. You would likely get more pay, I assume and more importantly 'respect'.

Few girls US or FSW are going to respect a guy that does an entry level blue collar job in his forties/middle age. If a FSW starts of respecting you and will likely soon not respect you once she sees such a situation. For sure a guy can have a job that is not all that and be respected by a FSW if he has sound advice, knows where he is going, is self assured, she is very into him and few better alternatives around. However, if you are in a situation where you could easily get a leg up into a job above that isn't that much more difficult and you are passing it over and all other similar opportunities around she is going to sed that as a negative as Krim says as Slack.

Only way past such is to have another plan I think which you are working on. So you can say, a bit like I do, ok I work as such and such number which is somewhat underwhelming BUT I have plans to move on to this which is much better AND I have this behind me as proof that I am moving that way and am working on it at the moment - so it doesn't look like you are in a dream world, FSW I have noticed are mindful of that as they get so much talk from FSUM about stuff and it's just so much talk.

It's so much better than saying, 'I'm working in this junior role still and haven't noticed time fly by' and the FSW be there and think, 'ok... what are you still doing there again this time in your life'. FSW and women in general are looking for a guy up the pecking order if he's an older guy they go in for status in a big way and see that it comes with older guys. If the guys doing an entry level job he should have moved on from twenty years ago they will wonder what's up with that guy. Blue collar FSW can accept but they will expect it to be up the chain of command a bit at a respectable level. It makes them feel secure with a guy that he knows what he is doing and is strong enough to hold a higher level job.

If you have a high school diploma you have no doubt got the ability to learn and advance, you just have to believe in yourself Beefarmer. These companies are looking for older guys to hold these higher level positions. They don't see a guy in his forties the same way as they see you when you were in your twenties. They see a guy in his forties as responsible as he isn't looking as young and as racy as a twenties guy and is often more stayed and looks that way. People treat you differently if you are in your forties as you look mature due to aging and will take you at face value in that, your presence carries authority, that you are a serious guy who can deal with stuff. It's definitely a time to push yourself forward a bit, as you are already finding it's easy enough to do so with the interest you are already getting.

[Bee Farmer]

No, I'm not the janitor.  This company doesn't have any janitors working for them.  They hire a janitor company to clean the bathrooms and dump the trash cans.  I'm like a half step above a janitor.  If no janitors are around and they run out of paper towels in the bathroom, they would probably ask me to put more towels in the dispenser.

Yes, yes, definitely accept the job, in fact accept any job that gets you higher up the pecking order, you are already way, way behind where you should be in your career/life at this stage. The field you chose is up to you but in such Blue Collar work you DEFINITELY do NOT want to be at the bottom. That maintenance cert you should have given for a while back then more so with whatever you need to get up that greasy pole.

But does this job get me higher in the pecking order?  I'm making $90k a year now, which is above average, but I have to work 48 hours every week.  (not counting the money I make from beekeeping on the side.)
This new job is still doing maintenance, but in a different industry and different machinery.  I will be taking an entry level maintenance job in this new industry.  It actually pays a couple dollars an hour less than I am making now.

If I tell a girl where I work, she will find out the average salary, and then be disappointed that I am below average for the company, even if I am above average earnings in society.  So how does the pecking order thing work in this instance?

Beefarmer I mean this seriously and in an inoffensive manner, you have bumbled along so far in an entry level blue collar job, quite content I'm sure, but those jobs are for school leavers as you once were. You should have moved up the chain long ago by doing whatever you needed to but you were too content and happy enough bumbling along. I get it, but almost you have achieved so far is any savings and buying of assets, house, etc. Sure a steady job where you are happy gas something going for it but it looks like you could move up the chain and still have an easy enough going job. Just by learning a few new things. You would likely get more pay, I assume and more importantly 'respect'.

How have I bumbled along in a blue collar job, when I have above average earnings, despite not having a college degree?  Both of my houses and all my vehicles are paid off.
Is this new job going to earn me more respect?  It's a cleaner environment than I work in now, and I might not bust my knuckles as often.  But I am taking a couple dollar pay cut.

Few girls US or FSW are going to respect a guy that does an entry level blue collar job in his forties/middle age. If a FSW starts of respecting you and will likely soon not respect you once she sees such a situation.

So even if I earn more than the average guy, you don't think girls would respect me, simply because I do blue collar work? 

I'm also a volunteer on the board of directors of an agricultural non-profit organization with 300+ members.  Does that affect how much a girl will respect me?  I have a title and folks in the group look up to me, but I don't get paid any money for doing the job.  It's just something I enjoy doing.

If the guys doing an entry level job he should have moved on from twenty years ago they will wonder what's up with that guy.

What if this job didn't even exist twenty years ago?  This kind of work is still fairly new.  The first job position doing this work was 2006.

These companies are looking for older guys to hold these higher level positions. They don't see a guy in his forties the sand way as they see you when you were in your twenties. They see a guy in his forties as responsible as he isn't looking as young and as racy as a twenties guy and is often more stayed and looks that way. People treat you differently if you are in your forties as you look mature due to aging and will take you at face value in that, that you are a serious guy who can deal with stuff.

This new company is NOT looking for guys in their forties.  Most of the people they hire are in their 20's.  I might actually be the diversity hire just to prove they hire old geezers.  This company started in 1998 after I graduated high school.

This new company actually had a huge layoff in a different department last year.  A lot of workers got laid off.  They never offered my job to them.

The average tenure at this company is only 1.3 years.  Are they going to decide that I'm too old, and let me go in a year so they can hire someone younger?

Should I stay where I am, or should I accept the offer of this new company?  I already have an above average income, so is going to an entry level job at this new company going to earn me more respect from women?  Or will they just look down on me?  I will be one of the lowest paid workers in this whole company.  Am I better off staying where I am and being one of the higher paid workers where I work now?

Would you accept the offer? 

[Trenchcoat]

No, I'm not the janitor.  This company doesn't have any janitors working for them.  They hire a janitor company to clean the bathrooms and dump the trash cans.  I'm like a half step above a janitor.  If no janitors are around and they run out of paper towels in the bathroom, they would probably ask me to put more towels in the dispenser.

But does this job get me higher in the pecking order?  I'm making $90k a year now, which is above average, but I have to work 48 hours every week.  (not counting the money I make from beekeeping on the side.)
This new job is still doing maintenance, but in a different industry and different machinery.  I will be taking an entry level maintenance job in this new industry.  It actually pays a couple dollars an hour less than I am making now.

If I tell a girl where I work, she will find out the average salary, and then be disappointed that I am below average for the company, even if I am above average earnings in society.  So how does the pecking order thing work in this instance?

How have I bumbled along in a blue collar job, when I have above average earnings, despite not having a college degree?  Both of my houses and all my vehicles are paid off.
Is this new job going to earn me more respect?  It's a cleaner environment than I work in now, and I might not bust my knuckles as often.  But I am taking a couple dollar pay cut.

So even if I earn more than the average guy, you don't think girls would respect me, simply because I do blue collar work? 

I'm also a volunteer on the board of directors of an agricultural non-profit organization with 300+ members.  Does that affect how much a girl will respect me?  I have a title and folks in the group look up to me, but I don't get paid any money for doing the job.  It's just something I enjoy doing.

What if this job didn't even exist twenty years ago?  This kind of work is still fairly new.  The first job position doing this work was 2006.

This new company is NOT looking for guys in their forties.  Most of the people they hire are in their 20's.  I might actually be the diversity hire just to prove they hire old geezers.  This company started in 1998 after I graduated high school.

This new company actually had a huge layoff in a different department last year.  A lot of workers got laid off.  They never offered my job to them.

The average tenure at this company is only 1.3 years.  Are they going to decide that I'm too old, and let me go in a year so they can hire someone younger?

Should I stay where I am, or should I accept the offer of this new company?  I already have an above average income, so is going to an entry level job at this new company going to earn me more respect from women?  Or will they just look down on me?  I will be one of the lowest paid workers in this whole company.  Am I better off staying where I am and being one of the higher paid workers where I work now?

Would you accept the offer?

How come you haven't moved up in the company where you are at Beefarmer?

The new job varies, whether they will keep their word and you can progress up in six months to a year or you get ditched and then not get your old number back would be a concern. But if not that job then perhaps another job or moving up in the company you are presently at or going into business yourself in something. If you have two houses (I assume you rent one out) fully paid up for them you have money behind you. I would use that as a springboard onto something else. Even if it's buying another house to rent out.

I get it the entry level blue collar job you're in pays well enough for easy enough work and you may even enjoy it enough. There's a kind of common sense to having a job that is a good deal and being at a good place in life financially. I am kind of that way myself, my job isn't exactly blue collar probably more white collar but it's an easy going stable enough job that brings a steady income in. There's practicality of the common sense situation but then there is also how women look upon it.

Personally I wouldn't want to go a job women look upon better but is much worse in job stability, more harder work without better pay, etc. I think in your case they would look at the job and decide at face value on the job title & job description. Few girls would be interested to look up the pay, etc they take it literally at that. Many would not respect you on that basis and walk, they would see you as unambitious, low status, etc. It's a shame they are that way but they just are. If you went in Fdate and contacted some pretty girls and told them up front what you do I guarantee your inbox from them would go quiet all of a sudden lol. It's what they are like.

The thing is why are people in your area passing over on a job that is well enough paid at an entry level? As you say better than average. It's easy enough work. My guess would be that although it's a good deal the blue collar aspect and the status put them off. Hence the company are paying better money than the would usually to improve the appeal of the job. Again most young guys doing want to tell the women, their girl if they have one, 'yeah I am now working in this low status blue collar work that is dirty & grubby and I bust my knuckles doing it' even if it was decent pay and he told them it would turn off the women. Women are real status snobs, have been over that last few decades. You may get away with it if you're a pretty boy, good socially, gym bod, i.e desirable in other ways but in itself it's going to bust your chances with so many women.

I'm somewhat in the same bag although my job isn't blue collar it's a job many women would be unimpressed by, whild it's a clean environment and has stuff going for it, responsibilities, position, etc the pay is low in this case and so is the job status somewhat. I uses to tell a few hot girls in Fdate what I did and they used to walk. If I was lucky they might give me time to explain and they might get it that it's a good stable job and the taxation system in the UK means going for something else is not worth it, but it usually did me few favours. The US system is of course different, there you have to pay for everything individually rather than through the State. I don't knock it,  hard work gets rewarded better in general and the focus becomes on the individual providing more. I would have probably done well out there. I had never been in hospital so low costs on that one, I would go for harder jobs if the payoff was there in terms of pay & girls, etc.

I dunno, if it were me I would really try and move in now Beefarmer if possible. There is being comfortable in a steady well paying enough number and there is being too comfortable and not aspiring for more. Up to you to weigh it up and decide if you want to make the move, it's your responsibility what you do in life, but if it were me I would look into what businesses to start that would bring in decent money as a replacement. If you look at it that there is a whole hierarchy (whether we accept it or not) then what you are doing is way down right near the bottom. There are guys way up that hierarchy that would laugh at such stuff, that's nearer to where you need to be. Once I've finished my house here the job I am doing will be jettisoned as soon as I can get something else going that is good. The UK I think is a much tougher economic environment than the US so I think you have an easier chance to get in in that respect.

Some FSW aren't pretty girls and they don't care what you do so much so don't you may get away with it. Any pretty girls though just won't like what you do as it won't sit well with their princess image. It's up to you the girl & type of work you go for but as Jordan Peterson points out wealth women only value so much in itself it's status that they value much more highly. Fail on that and it can lead to a lot of problems with them.

[Trenchcoat]

Generally most women are like bad pawnbrokers, they'll weigh up a guy regardless of all else based on his job alone. Women just love to peg a guy by his job/work. They'll insist a guy is worth something by what he is not who he is, so if he is working as a cleaner they'll insist he is of low value, poor, failed in life even. That will be without knowing his bank balance, assets, etc, or wanting to ask women just love to pigeon hole guys, they are like, 'oh yes he is that because he does that, yes he is!' If you told them the guy who is a cleaner us reasonably well off and only needs a steady number that brings in roughly the same money as a harder more stressful job that is seen as higher status they will look at you in disbelief and not really want to believe it.

I've been there and seen women like that, it's kind of funny to see how inbuilt it is in them, like they've been given a list of who gets pegged where for doing what job. They seem to get reassurance and a sense of satisfaction out of doing so like they know where everyone stands, what someone is worth and I guess to set their worth against them to see what they can get, what they are worth.

A job forms a large part of the equation but also stuff like what you have in the way of a car, what you wear, etc. Time over again if I was going for a local girl I would by a flash car even a second hand flash car and buy some decent fashion brand clothes at an early age again in my late teens, but them in the Easter, Summer or Christmas Sales or whatever. Girls notice that shit I just kind of regarded it as shit. I saw a t-shirt, etc and thought well it's a decent enough t-shirt at a cheap enough price and I like the design if it had one. The expensive t-shirt I just thought it's not worth nearly the price it was displayed for. Little did I realise though at the time that many women read a lot more into it all than that. The expensive price tag for the lord expensive clothing is worth it as women value you more as a result to me it doesn't matter dick shit about it all but to them it'd the be all and end all. So doing that could have given me a easier time getting women, not necessarily a good woman but a woman nonetheless. Of course job is still going to play into it a job they regard as very low status they would probably just be confused. A reasonable status job to them say an office job and they will likely be turned on by it, or as a student even. The thing is with clothing is that it can be worn many times for a very long number of years so buying more expensive clothing isn't as pricey as it at first may seem. I have many clothes in my wardrobe that are still in good condition dating back to the nineties. The fashion hasn't changed a lot over the past three decades, sometimes even coming back around, slightly retro looks even being in style. Once you're past childhood and dine most of your growing and messing about with associated wear & tear most clothes last a very long time indeed with only a few not lasting the distance.

[Bee Farmer]

How come you haven't moved up in the company where you are at Beefarmer?

It's a smaller company, so I have to wait for people to retire or die.  There are a couple guys ahead of me who enjoy working there, and plan to work there until the day they die.  One guy is 70 and the other is 75 years old.  My boss is about my age, and he is content and wants to stay in that position until he retires.

The new job varies, whether they will keep their word and you can progress up in six months to a year or you get ditched and then not get your old number back would be a concern. But if not that job then perhaps another job or moving up in the company you are presently at or going into business yourself in something.

If I keep doing industrial maintenance in factories, any move will be a lateral move, rather than an upwards move.  To advance beyond the maintenance level I am now in any factory usually requires a college degree or specialized education.
I do have a beekeeping business on the side, but it would be difficult to scale up to the point where I could replace the pay and benefits of doing maintenance.

Even if it's buying another house to rent out.

Like Bill keeps saying, "You don't know what you don't know."

Interest rates have been going up the past few years, combined with skyrocketing house prices.  Now is not the time to be buying another house.  Demand exceeds the supply.

I get it the entry level blue collar job you're in pays well enough for easy enough work and you may even enjoy it enough. There's a kind of common sense to having a job that is a good deal and being at a good place in life financially.

It's actually physically demanding work, and I have to work 48 hours a week.  But working hard and working long hours has enabled me to get ahead.

d of that way myself, my job isn't exactly blue collar probably more white collar but it's an easy going stable enough job that brings a steady income in.

You do not work in a white collar job.  You have to be middle or upper class before it could be considered a white collar job.  You are the working class, even if your job is easy. 
Normally, middle class is considered to be $30,000-$90,000 a year.

I think in your case they would look at the job and decide at face value on the job title & job description.

I doubt that.  The title is very vague and generic.

Few girls would be interested to look up the pay, etc they take it literally at that.

I doubt that.  I think most girls would look up what this company pays workers. 
When I was younger, I worked at Rolls-Royce.  Girls would melt when they found out I was single and worked at Rolls-Royce.  (They didn't care that I was a low paid peon in the machine shop.)

So should I tell girls about being on the board of directors of the non-profit organization, even though it is an unpaid position?  It sounds important.  Isn't that what girls want?

If you went in Fdate and contacted some pretty girls and told them up front what you do I guarantee your inbox from them would go quiet all of a sudden lol. It's what they are like.

I don't know.  If I take the job, wouldn't it be better to use my employee badge as a profile pic so girls know that I have a job?

The thing is why are people in your area passing over on a job that is well enough paid at an entry level?

The company is really, really picky about who they hire.  Almost everyone who applies gets turned down.  You have a better chance of getting accepted into Harvard than being hired by this company.

There are a lot of job opportunities in my area.  The old workers are retiring, and not enough young people to fill the old jobs.  Add to that, new businesses are opening wanting workers.
A lot of the people in my area went to college, but they didn't learn the skills needed to do this job.  They got other jobs that pay enough for them to pay for bread and circuses, and they aren't ambitious enough to try something new.  If you can make $20 or $25 an hour, and can work a few hours of overtime to make more money...how motivated are you going to be to take free online classes just so you can pay $250 to take an open book exam in the hopes you can get a job in a new industry?

My guess would be that although it's a good deal the blue collar aspect and the status put them off.

A lot of the guys in my area work blue collar jobs.  Blue collar jobs is the foundation of the American economy.

Again most young guys doing want to tell the women, their girl if they have one, 'yeah I am now working in this low status blue collar work that is dirty & grubby and I bust my knuckles doing it' even if it was decent pay and he told them it would turn off the women. Women are real status snobs, have been over that last few decades. You may get away with it if you're a pretty boy, good socially, gym bod, i.e desirable in other ways but in itself it's going to bust your chances with so many women.

From what I have seen, the average American woman around here doesn't care if a guy is blue collar or not.  A blue collar worker who works overtime can easily make more money than a salaried white collar worker.

I'm somewhat in the same bag although my job isn't blue collar it's a job many women would be unimpressed by, whild it's a clean environment and has stuff going for it, responsibilities, position, etc the pay is low in this case and so is the job status somewhat. I uses to tell a few hot girls in Fdate what I did and they used to walk.

No, your job is not somewhat low status.  Your job is extremely low status.  A girl wants a man who can provide her a middle class lifestyle.  If you don't earn enough to provide that, then your job status will always be absolute trash.

I would go for harder jobs if the payoff was there in terms of pay & girls, etc.

I thought you said you wouldn't be a blue collar worker like a plumber.  Now you say you would, if the pay was enough.  So how much money would a job have to pay you for you to do plumbing work?  Or a maintenance mechanic, and have cuts and scrapes on your hands and busted knuckles?  Would you do that for $20 or $30 an hour?  Would you be a garbage collector for $25 an hour?

but if it were me I would look into what businesses to start that would bring in decent money as a replacement

What do you consider to be "decent money?"  What if I'm an introvert who is not a people person and doesn't enjoy sales?  I get burned out from dealing with customers for 3 hours on a Saturday morning at a farmers market selling honey.

If you look at it that there is a whole hierarchy (whether we accept it or not) then what you are doing is way down right near the bottom.

Are you standing on your head, if you think I'm on the bottom of the hierarchy?  I need you to explain to me how I am at the bottom of this hierarchy.  Do you think guys are at the bottom if they are not the very top 1%?
I have above average income for not only my area, but for the whole country.  (Even if I am a blue collar worker who gets dirty fingernails and busted knuckles.)
I have a side business with bees, and am admired by women at the farmers market for my bee knowledge.
I'm on the board of a non-profit organization and have a title.  Women seem to think it is something special, and will often want to ask me advice on growing things.
I have a couple 4 wheel drive trucks, and trucks are always a chick magnet.

Some FSW aren't pretty girls and they don't care what you do so much so don't you may get away with it. Any pretty girls though just won't like what you do as it won't sit well with their princess image.

So if an FSU girl is pretty, that means she is a princess?  She won't care if I treat her good, or if I can provide a solid middle class lifestyle?  Do I need to be a hedge fund manager that makes a million dollars a year if I want a pretty girl? 

Generally most women are like bad pawnbrokers, they'll weigh up a guy regardless of all else based on his job alone. Women just love to peg a guy by his job/work. They'll insist a guy is worth something by what he is not who he is, so if he is working as a cleaner they'll insist he is of low value, poor, failed in life even.

So if a guy is a cleaner and earns $100,000 a year, he is a failure?  But if he is an architectural designer, and only earns $15,000 a year, he is a success in women's eyes?  Is that what you're saying?

A job forms a large part of the equation but also stuff like what you have in the way of a car, what you wear, etc.

I play that part good.  A lot of the millionaires I know have 4 wheel drive trucks.  They wear work boots and blue jeans and t-shirts.  That's how a lot of millionaires present themselves, but I take it to the next level.  A lot of the millionaires I know wear stupid John Deere ball caps.  I wear my cowboy hat to show that I am high status guy.  And they will wear cheap Wrangler jeans.  If I want to dress to impress, I wear my Levi jeans.