Russian Women Discussion

RWD Discussion Groups => Cultural and Political Events => Topic started by: mendeleyev on November 21, 2013, 11:15:22 PM

Title: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: mendeleyev on November 21, 2013, 11:15:22 PM
From the Mendeleyev Journal (http://wp.me/peVMt-34d):

Ponder these quotes on Thursday from Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovich "I would like to emphasize that Ukraine has no alternative to reforms and European integration" and moments later he added "We are moving this way and do not change our route."


(http://russianreport.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/viktor-yanukovich-austria-nov-2013.jpg) (http://russianreport.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/viktor-yanukovich-austria-nov-2013.jpg)
Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovich arrived in Austria on Thursday. His hosts had no idea that he was about to embarrass the EU.

However after Ukrainian Prime Minister Mykola Azarov had returned from a meeting of CIS prime ministers in Saint Petersburg on Wednesday, he sounded more like a Prime Minister thinking of suspending efforts for EU integration and choosing to develop closer ties with Russia and other CIS countries.

Azarov's travel to the CIS summit came after a secret meeting between Yanukovich and Vladimir Putin last week. President Yanukovich arrived in Austria on Thursday for a two-day state visit.

On his return from Russia, Prime Minister Azarov described the CIS meetings in glowing terms: "The agenda of the meeting was extremely intense. And it was one of the most successful meetings of Heads of Government. By the results of the meeting it was signed about thirty documents. They cover a range of cooperation: in electricity, health care, tourism sector, training of the teaching staff, information security, creating a single transport area in the CIS and others."

Mr. Azarov explained that "...the main purpose of debates was the review of the execution of the Agreement on free trade between the CIS countries. This item was included into the agenda against our initiative - the initiative of Ukraine, which was supported by all Heads of Government of the CIS."

(http://russianreport.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/imf-meeting-with-pm.jpg) (http://russianreport.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/imf-meeting-with-pm.jpg)
Ukraine's Prime Minister Azarov, seated near the window, hosted IMF delegates to talk about Ukraine's debt.

Then came the abrupt announcement that Ukraine would turn towards Moscow, ensuring a major victory for Russia who has wooed Ukraine to join the Customs Union of several former Soviet Republics. The change comes only one week before an EU summit where the parties have been scheduled to sign an association agreement during the Vilnius Summit in Lithuania.

Meanwhile several Verkhovna Rada (Parliament) committees had been busy at work to bring various aspects of Ukrainian law into compliance with EU standards and just this past Tuesday the Chairman of the Parliament, Volodimir Rybak, hosted the EU Commissioner for Enlargement and European Neighbourhood Policy Štefan Füle in Kyiv. But key sticking points, including the EU's demand for the release of jailed former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko may have pushed the Ukrainians back towards Moscow.

The progress of Ukraine’s fulfillment of commitments to the EU was discussed during the EU meetings in Kyiv and just this past Tuesday Chairman Rybak had stressed that Ukraine had no alternative and said that the Ukraine-EU Association Agreement would be signed next week.


(http://russianreport.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/eu-commission-meetings-pm.jpg) (http://russianreport.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/eu-commission-meetings-pm.jpg)
EU Commission meetings in Ukraine.

However the Ukrainian government Thursday evening indicated that Ukraine would turn her back on the EU framework at the last-minute, choosing instead to join the Customs Union and developing trade agreements within the framework of the Commonwealth of Independent States.

For some time Russian President Vladimir Putin has urged Ukraine to return to her historically close ties to Moscow and one aim of the CIS trade talks in Saint Petersburg was to show Kyiv that Moscow was willing to increase economic trade and extend gas deals with Kyiv if the Ukrainian government would suspend negotiations with the EU.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Shadow on November 22, 2013, 03:01:57 AM
While the entrance to the EU would cost them money instead of leeching, I doubt Ukraine will be happy to enter. However I still see Ukraine enter the EU in 10 to 15 years when the current 'new' countries no longer provide cheap labour.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: steveboy on November 22, 2013, 06:56:01 AM
A sigh of relief for many searching for a Ukrainian bride I guess. If the day ever does come when Ukraine joins the EU the "Ukrainian brides" thing will vanish over night, just like it has for Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania.
So plenty of time to visit those villages still 8)
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Hammer2722 on November 22, 2013, 08:24:15 AM
As long as Ukraine is run by mafia thugs and Oligarchs, they will never be a part of EU. They have got it so easy now stealing all they want with no consequences.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: TS on November 22, 2013, 06:56:35 PM
What advantage would Ukraine have working with the EU?  EU does not want to give them membership. 
Ukraine is better off working with Russia, Turkey, middle east, and Asia. 
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: JayH on November 22, 2013, 07:05:00 PM
What advantage would Ukraine have working with the EU?  EU does not want to give them membership. 
Ukraine is better off working with Russia, Turkey, middle east, and Asia.

EU membership  does not exclude other trade options-- what it does offer  is huge markets in close geographic approximity. There is so much under utilised farmland in Ukraine that can help revive/save Ukraine economy and create jobs.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Boethius on November 24, 2013, 11:07:54 AM
Current reports from Russian news agencies is that protesters in Kyiv tried to storm the Rada, and shots have been heard.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Boethius on November 24, 2013, 11:24:14 AM
Phone lines to Kyiv are currently down, with a message stating so, in both Ukrainian and English.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: mendeleyev on November 24, 2013, 03:20:34 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPEpZHNMkvE


The BBC says that over 100,000 were on the streets of Kyiv.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paPQ0cRTlZ8
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: JayH on November 24, 2013, 05:41:12 PM
http://en.ria.ru/world/20131124/184938426/Kiev-Police-Use-Tear-Gas-Against-Pro-EU-Integration-Protesters--Report.html
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: lordtiberius on November 24, 2013, 06:49:09 PM
a blow to freedom loving people everywhere
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Muzh on November 25, 2013, 12:52:30 PM
Ukraine President Viktor Yanukovych calls for calm 

Hiding behind some drapes, Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych has called for calm among protesters angry over his government's decision to abandon a historic deal with the EU.

Mr Yanukovych defended the move, saying it was forced by economic necessity because it is becoming increasingly difficult for him to pay his debts. Riding on a helicopter is not cheap", said the President.
 
The EU's top two officials have sharply criticised Russia for exerting heavy economic pressure on Ukraine.
 
Clashes between protesters and police continued on Monday. Meanwhile, jailed opposition leader, Yulia Tymoshenko, sensing she has a chance to get out of jail has announced a hunger strike.
 
European Council President Herman Van Rompuy and European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso said on Monday the door was still open for Ukraine to sign an association agreement - on free trade and reforms - at a summit in Vilnius later this week, pissing further Tsar Putin.
 
"The Eastern Partnership is conceived as a win-win where we all stand to gain," they said.
"It is up to Ukraine to freely <chuckle> decide what kind of engagement they seek with the European Union.
 
"We therefore strongly disapprove of the Russian position and actions."
 
'European path'
 
Mr Yanukovych was speaking publicly behind the drapes, mind you for the first time since the announcement last week that his government was halting preparations to sign the association agreement.
 
The decision triggered mass protests in Kiev on Sunday.
 
"I had no idea this shit would explode like this. I want peace and calm in our big Ukrainian family so I can steal some more," Mr Yanukovych said in a video statement.
 
He said his government had not given up attempts to bring closer ties between Ukraine and the EU. They are still trying to hack the European Bank computers.
 
"Today I would like to underline this: there is no alternative to the creation of a society of European standards in Ukraine and my policies on this path always have been, and will continue to be, consistent with that of a thug," he said.
 
Opponents have accused him of keeping talks with the EU alive while laughing at the naive do-nothing popullation never intending to sign a deal.
 
As many as 100,000 people massed in Kiev's European Square on Sunday calling for a "European future without Yanukovych", in scenes reminiscent of the Orange Revolution in 2004, when Mr Yanukovych was eventually ousted after an election widely believed to have been faked. The government immediately called for national holidays and told the protesters to go celebrate.
 
Riot police used tear gas against protesters on Sunday and again on Monday, saying they had been pelted with objects. "No more bad kielbasa" said a policeman on condition of annonimity.
 
Protesters set up tents, implying they were planning to stay for the long haul, or at least until the New Years festivities.
 
Tymoshenko, one of the leaders of the Orange Revolution and world-class swindler who was jailed in 2011 for abuse of power, said she was starting a hunger strike in solidarity with the protesters.
She launched a similar fast last year in protest at her treatment, but stopped it after 20 days because she reached her desired weight. "Prison food is so very bad for my thighs," said the former Prime Minister.
 
The EU has made her release from prison one of its conditions for signing the association agreement. Interpol is waiting anxiously.
 
For the real version, go here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25087162).
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Boethius on November 25, 2013, 01:00:15 PM
Internal political matters should not be a condition of signing what are intended to be trade agreements. 
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Muzh on November 25, 2013, 01:16:51 PM
Internal political matters should not be a condition of signing what are intended to be trade agreements.

Oh please, say that again.  ;)
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Boethius on November 25, 2013, 03:11:44 PM
You can watch the protests live here.  Interesting if you understand Ukrainian. 


http://www.radiosvoboda.org/media/videotube/42.html (http://www.radiosvoboda.org/media/videotube/42.html)
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Boethius on November 25, 2013, 03:52:44 PM
Here is another analysis -

When Oleh Rybachuk, a senior Ukrainian envoy, came to Brussels in early 2005, he wanted one thing: a public statement that Ukraine can one day join the EU.

It was just a few months after the Orange Revolution.

Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians had risked their lives by going on the streets to overthrow a bogus, Soviet-type leader (Viktor Yanukovych) and the new authorities believed an EU accession promise would
keep the movement going.

Instead, Rybachuk shuffled from meeting to meeting with MEPs, officials in the European Commission and the EU Council, and with diplomats in EU countries' embassies.

They talked to him about the complexity of EU decision-making and about "benchmarks" and "criteria" for financial assistance.

He left the EU capital angry and confused.

"Who the hell do I have to see around here to get Ukraine into the EU?" he told a Polish diplomat before flying home.

What happened next is well known.

For their part, Orange Revolution leaders turned on each other in political vendettas and corruption scandals.  I
t got so bad that in 2010 Yanukovych was voted into power. On paper, he passed pro-EU law after law. But in reality, he took Ukraine backward. He jailed opposition leaders, rigged parliamentary elections, seized control of media and made his own family rich.

On the EU side, the accession promise never came.

Instead, the EU drafted a several-thousand-page-long "association agreement" and "deep and comprehensive free trade agreement," full of technical demands.

It even refused to call Ukraine a "European state" because it sounded too much like the EU Treaty on the right of "European states" to apply for membership.

EU countries also kept Ukrainian people at arm's length.

Ukraine dropped visa requirements for EU citizens, but EU consulates became notorious for red tape and refusals.

In an incident in 2007, one EU country even made a Ukrainian children's choir sing in the snow outside its building in Kiev before issuing (expensive) EU travel permits.

Meanwhile, in the background, Russia was making moves.  In 2008, it showed former Soviet states it is ready to use hard power - tanks and bombs - to keep them in line by invading Georgia.

In 2009, it used hard power - mid-winter gas cut-offs - to increase its control over the Ukrainian economy by forcing it to pay super-high gas prices.  In 2010, it used gas threats to get its navy to stay in Ukraine's Crimean peninsula.

This year, a few weeks before Ukraine was to sign the EU agreement at a summit in Vilnius, it called in a $1 billion gas debt and threatened a trade ban if it put pen to paper.


The story ended on 21 November when Ukraine said No to the EU pact, citing Russian pressure.


For sure, the Ukrainian elite shares blame for the fiasco.  Ukraine's one-time foreign minister, Kostyantyn Gryshchenko, says its former PM, Yulia Tymoshenko, committed "treason" by agreeing the high gas price, in part, for personal gain.


EU diplomats say Yanukovych never intended to sign the EU pact because the status quo, with Ukraine in limbo between the EU and Russia, makes it easier for him to retain power and enrich his clan.

Ukrainian people are equally responsible for their own fate.


Tens of thousands of them protested against Yanukovych in Kiev on Sunday (24 November), prompting clashes with riot police, in the biggest opposition rally since the Orange Revolution.


It remains to be seen if the tents will stay in place.

But while many people in western Ukraine have lapsed into political fatigue, equally many in the country's Russophone east never shared the EU romance in the first place.

"In order to understand Ukrainian politics, you have to remember that Ukrainians gave the English language two words: masochism and anarchy," Andrey Kurkov, a Ukrainian novelist, told MEPs at a recent hearing.

The treaty fiasco also shows that EU soft power cannot compete with Russian hard power.

For cosmopolitan Ukrainians, the EU, an enclave of liberal democracy and open markets, is a more attractive model than Russia. 

But when tanks roll in or when the gas goes off, EU officials look far away and tiny.

Russian leader Vladimir Putin is fond of summoning local leaders for what Ukrainian diplomats call "man-to-man" chats.


But if he does, EU officials cannot make a counter-offer. They cannot say: "Relax: we can wire $1 billion more than the Russians to your offshore account. Relax: we will impose sanctions on Russia unless it puts the gas back on. Relax: if worst comes to worst, our military will stop Russian troops from 'saving' Russian passport holders from 'unrest' in Crimea'."

Equally, EU institutions do not know what is really going on.

When EUobserver met one senior EU diplomat in Kiev in 2011, he said: "What I need is an organigramme that tells me which Ukrainian oligarch is backing which political party at any given time."

What he asked for is hard intelligence, which the EU foreign service does not get.


The Rybachuk anecdote indicates the EU also failed to compete with Russia on soft power, however.

The anti-Yanukovych protests on Sunday show that soft power is not nothing.

But over the past 10 years, EU institutions did not adapt to the rules of the game in post-Soviet Europe.

Time and again, when a Ukrainian official walked into an EU meeting, he faced negotiators used to deadlines and compromises in the Brussels environment, who politely lectured him in English about "win-win" situations and "long term" benefits.

When Ukrainian oligarchs looked at the EU treaty, they saw a template which lets EU firms gain market share in the first years after adoption.But when they walked into the Russian embassy in Kiev, Ukraine's big men sat down at tables bedecked with crystal glasses and bottles of Beluga vodka.

They met Russian diplomats with a background in Russia's intelligence service, the FSB, who talked to them in Ukrainian or Russian about immediate gains and threats.

"We don't know how to play geopolitics," an EU diplomat told EUobserver a few days before the EU deal collapsed.

"It's a clash of two worlds. Ukrainian politicians are completely different to us. They know the West only through visits to five star hotels," he noted.

He added that if the EU underestimated Putin, it also underestimated Yanukovych, who has played Brussels against Moscow to get "money, money, money" to help win elections in 2015.

When Yanukovych said No, the EU foreign service came close to using Russian tactics.It said in a statement on 21 November that if Ukraine abandons the EU path, it is unlikely to get International Monetary Fund aid, threatening a state default.The game is not easy, however.

The next day, Putin accused the EU of "blackmail," adding that EU countries are planning to "stage" mass protests in Kiev.

The same day, the EU foreign service reverted to form.Its spokeswoman told press in Brussels that Ukraine should meet EU "benchmarks." She added that Russia will not pay a price for its actions, describing it as an EU "strategic partner … important trade partner."But if there is fault on the EU side, EU countries take the lion's share.

The EU commission and the EU foreign service suffer under the weight of their own bureaucracy and technocratic culture.Their strategy for post-Soviet states - the Eastern Partnership of benchmarks, criteria - is not fit for purpose.

They also contain plenty of people who see Ukraine as a low priority, far lower than, say, China, US trade or the Middle East.

But if EU institutions did not give Ukraine an accession promise or visa free travel, if they did not threaten to throw Yanukovych under the bus or punish Putin for his interference, it is because leading EU states, such as Germany, France and the UK, did not give them the say-so.

Berlin, London and Paris have plenty of diplomats who know how to play dirty.Former Communist EU countries, such as Estonia or Poland, also know how to do business in the east.

But between them, EU leaders did not muster the political will to fight for Ukraine.


EU commission chief Jose Manuel Barroso and neighbourhood commissioner Stefan Fuele could not win over Yanukovych in 11th-hour phone calls and trips to Kiev.

EU foreign relations chief Catherine Ashton was too busy on Iran.

But where was French President Francois Hollande or German Chancellor Angela Merkel when Yanukovych was meeting Putin in the run-up to the 21 November debacle?

Some Ukrainian diplomats have their own explanation, redolent of Soviet-era paranoia.


When Merkel in Lubmin, near the German-Polish border, in November 2011, turned on Nord Stream, a Russian-German gas pipeline which bypasses Ukraine, giving the Kremlin more influence over former Soviet and former Communist states, one Ukrainian diplomat recalled the Yalta Conference.

The Yalta meeting in 1945 saw the UK, the US and the Soviet Union carve up post-WWII Europe into east and west."

It's as if the Germans have done a deal with Russia: 'This is ours. This is yours. You can do with it what you want'," the Ukrainian diplomat told this website.


http://euobserver.com/foreign/122218 (http://euobserver.com/foreign/122218)
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: sleepycat on November 25, 2013, 06:31:03 PM
I am about to fly over to Ukraine in two days time.
Still safe to go there???
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Boethius on November 25, 2013, 06:35:58 PM
Of course.  You'll be fine.  Look at my link when it is daytime in Kyiv.  The demonstrations are very peaceful.

This raises yet another difference in Western and FSU mentality.  During the 2006 riots in Budapest, Russians, who, unlike Ukrainians, could travel there freely, were booking tours and hotel rooms, recognizing that prices had dropped due to Western timidity. :)
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: JayH on November 25, 2013, 06:46:51 PM
I am about to fly over to Ukraine in two days time.
Still safe to go there???

Look at it this way-- you will not have any luggage preventing you running !!!  LOL   ;D

The airports are out of the city. It would not stop me going to Kiev and would not give it a second thought. Only thing to do is be aware-- in case it got a lot worse-- but that is really unlikely.
Have a good trip-- and remember to keep us informed!! :)
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Slumba on November 25, 2013, 06:49:20 PM
I am about to fly over to Ukraine in two days time.
Still safe to go there???

I would say yes. Go there but do not attend the riots or the area near there, even as a sightseer.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: sleepycat on November 25, 2013, 09:09:11 PM
Okay for this trip I will purchase travel insurance in case I need medical treatment after being shot with rubber bullets or tear gassed.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: JayH on November 26, 2013, 12:07:32 AM
Okay for this trip I will purchase travel insurance in case I need medical treatment after being shot with rubber bullets or tear gassed.

No need -- they will not be rubber!! ;D

Just making fun of you SC !!The travel insurance is probably a good idea-- cover medical as well as missing luggage !!
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Boethius on November 26, 2013, 01:22:18 AM
No live bullets, or rubber bullets, for that matter, will be fired on Maidan.  Maidan is on Khreshchatik, Kyiv's main street, and it is a street you should visit if you have not seen it before.  You will be perfectly safe.  I would not avoid it.  In fact, it may be a place where you will be able to interact with locals, assuming the protests are still happening.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Anotherkiwi on November 26, 2013, 03:25:57 AM
Okay for this trip I will purchase travel insurance in case I need medical treatment after being shot with rubber bullets or tear gassed.

Is this in addition to the travel insurance which you purchased weeks or months ago when you booked your flight?  ;D
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: lordtiberius on November 26, 2013, 08:41:49 AM
Read the rather lengthy article . . .

What the President of Ukraine did was shameful.  Further, many in Ukraine's east, especially the young people really wanted this.  Unlike Kuchma, this President doesn't have a solid base of support and is not percieved as asuccessful leader.

Rejecting EU association is ine thing, but using such negotiations to persoanlly enrich oneslef is shameful.  This is not over nor will it end well for the current president.  You reap what you sow.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Muzh on November 26, 2013, 09:38:28 AM
Quote from: Article from Boe

Berlin, London and Paris have plenty of diplomats who know how to play dirty.Former Communist EU countries, such as Estonia or Poland, also know how to do business in the east.

But between them, EU leaders did not muster the political will to fight for Ukraine.


Why does the EU has to fight for Ukraine? Why is it that Ukrainians do not fight for themselves?
 
Basically, the Ukies are still waiting for someone to fight for their own battles.
 
Last night my wife was talking to her sister. I asked her what she thought of the protests.
 
The usual. Nothing will happen.
 
So I said something along the lines that people should do something and push the issue. Her reply:
 
Oh, and then get shot?
 
I asked her, Who should get shot then?
 
Okay, let's change the subject.
 
Yanukonvikt and his thugs know this. Nothing will change.
 
Sorry, my mistake. Somethings will change. Like Yanukonvikt overseas bank account getting bigger.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Muzh on November 26, 2013, 09:40:21 AM
Read the rather lengthy article . . .

What the President of Ukraine did was shameful.  Further, many in Ukraine's east, especially the young people really wanted this.  Unlike Kuchma, this President doesn't have a solid base of support and is not percieved as asuccessful leader.

Rejecting EU association is ine thing, but using such negotiations to persoanlly enrich oneslef is shameful.  This is not over nor will it end well for the current president.  You reap what you sow.

Dude, wake up and smell the coffee.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Belvis on November 26, 2013, 01:31:05 PM
O.K., view on this issue from Russia, in pictures and video

(http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/sadapter/28738453/172345/172345_original.jpg)
Inscription on the stone:  Choose  your path, pal

Ukrainians hope the association with EU will change their life, somehow. Protests in Kiev:

(http://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1441200_732483423446177_452293048_n.jpg)

(http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/perepelitsyn/12875581/74274/74274_original.jpg)

I believe it does not matter much, association with EU or trade union with Russia. What counts, it is lawfulness, oppression of corruption, labour discipline. Without these factors, Ukrainians are doomed to the fate as shown in this video about former math teacher from Lviv:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5LqDKNL4BQ
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: sleepycat on November 29, 2013, 07:30:54 PM
Have a good trip-- and remember to keep us informed!! :)

Arrived in Kharkov on Friday night, after having to change planes three times for this trip.
Luggage arrived intact so biggest hurdle cleared.
Temperature about 2 degrees at night, cold but survivable.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: JayH on November 29, 2013, 07:47:39 PM
Arrived in Kharkov on Friday night, after having to change planes three times for this trip.
Luggage arrived intact so biggest hurdle cleared.
Temperature about 2 degrees at night, cold but survivable.

That was good lol!! Start a thread specific to your expedition !! :clapping:

I was reading of a guy who is staying in Kiev and he saw protests close up-- he thought all quite exciting !!
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: onus on November 29, 2013, 09:45:08 PM
Such a shame. Oh well.

Enjoy a few more decades as a political pawn of Russia Ukraine. But whats a few years after centuries right ;)

I don't know the political mindset of Ukrainians so i can't comment on that.

I can't imagine it does Ukrainians much good. Countries that broke away have or are doing much better than those aligned to Russia.

Russia's economy is heading to another recession and Europe is just starting to get out of one. Seems like a no brainier which i would choose.

But, change will be tough but in the long run lives will improve dramatically.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: lordtiberius on November 30, 2013, 12:16:17 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/01/world/europe/ukraine-protests.html?_r=0

Every Westerner of good will should stand with the Ukrainian people.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Shadow on November 30, 2013, 01:08:39 PM
Such a shame. Oh well.

Enjoy a few more decades as a political pawn of Russia Ukraine. But whats a few years after centuries right ;)

I don't know the political mindset of Ukrainians so i can't comment on that.

I can't imagine it does Ukrainians much good. Countries that broke away have or are doing much better than those aligned to Russia.

Russia's economy is heading to another recession and Europe is just starting to get out of one. Seems like a no brainier which i would choose.

But, change will be tough but in the long run lives will improve dramatically.
Which countries are doing better?
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: lordtiberius on November 30, 2013, 01:56:26 PM
Poland for starters is but one. 

But that is besides the point.  The point is that the people of Ukraine want to be in the EU.  Shouldn't the people decide their own destiny?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiT0zcDA9RU

The men terrorizing these protestors are not the local police, but the Berkat from Crimea.  This is a local police man.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpuGRSpB1ZQ
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Boethius on November 30, 2013, 03:35:28 PM
The point is that the people of Ukraine want to be in the EU.  Shouldn't the people decide their own destiny?


No they don't.  The split is 50/50.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: lordtiberius on November 30, 2013, 03:52:48 PM
The President of Ukraine has beaten his own citizens in the street.  Over 30 arrested, 6 missing, 1 rumored dead.

I urge my fellow Americans to take up the cause:
http://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/impose-personal-sanctions-president-ukraine-viktor-yanukovych-and-cabinet-ministers-ukraine-members/h58Fz30V#thank-you=p
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: JayH on November 30, 2013, 04:00:58 PM

No they don't.  The split is 50/50.

Where do you see the split-- everyone over 45  for Russia--- everyone under 45 for EU !!
Something like that!!!! ;D
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: lordtiberius on November 30, 2013, 04:04:30 PM
Regions party members are leaving his party.  How does Putin's agreement help the common man or even the older couple?
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Boethius on November 30, 2013, 04:07:14 PM

Where do you see the split-- everyone over 45  for Russia--- everyone under 45 for EU !!Something like that!!!! ;D


I read recent polling data.  The split was more along the lines of region.  The West/Central Ukraine favoured the EU, the East and South, which trade more with Russia, favoured the Customs Union.

I think a trade agreement with the EU will eventually be back on the table.  It was short term economics, and political survival, that were behind this result.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: TomT on November 30, 2013, 04:12:35 PM
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/poll-ukrainian-public-split-over-eu-customs-union-options-332470.html (http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/poll-ukrainian-public-split-over-eu-customs-union-options-332470.html)
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Chelseaboy on November 30, 2013, 04:44:11 PM
I really don't see any benefit to existing EU members in the EU embracing Ukraine and bringing them into our fold..it'll just be another country like Greece poncing bail-outs off the rest of us...more trouble than they're worth.
 
Let the Russians have them,it's a pity they didn't want Bulgaria and Rumania too.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Boethius on November 30, 2013, 04:46:16 PM
The Association Agreement was not about adding Ukraine as an EU member.  It was about trade.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Chelseaboy on November 30, 2013, 04:50:08 PM
I know that,but it will be the start of the slippery slope toward full EU membership in the future.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Boethius on November 30, 2013, 04:53:48 PM
Not necessarily.  However, you can't really compare Bulgaria and Romania.  The EU's issues with those countries are predominantly with Roma populations.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: cc3 on November 30, 2013, 04:55:21 PM


I read recent polling data.  The split was more along the lines of region.  The West/Central Ukraine favoured the EU, the East and South, which trade more with Russia, favoured the Customs Union.

I think a trade agreement with the EU will eventually be back on the table.  It was short term economics, and political survival, that were behind this result.


The Berkut storm troopers were bussed in from the east (Luhansk) and south (Krim).
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: lordtiberius on November 30, 2013, 05:13:19 PM
The east supports the EU deal.  There will be a revolution over this. 
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: calmissile on November 30, 2013, 05:26:45 PM
The Berkut storm troopers were bussed in from the east (Luhansk) and south (Krim).

So who are the Burkut storm troopers?   I failed to see that explained.  Who is paying them to beat up the protesters?  Is it a police force or are they there because of idiology and support the Russian side of the argument?
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: JayH on November 30, 2013, 05:35:52 PM
The Police were active in preventing buses leaving many cities around Ukraine. Threatening bus companies ,stopping buses on the road etc with bogus issues . This was widespread tactit to prevent protest numbers swelling.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: calmissile on November 30, 2013, 05:45:52 PM
The Police were active in preventing buses leaving many cities around Ukraine. Threatening bus companies ,stopping buses on the road etc with bogus issues . This was widespread tacit to prevent protest numbers swelling.

So, is it fair to say that the current president and his party are doing this to silence the protesters because the president favors the Russian CU option?

My wife tells me that the police are beating the protesters violently.  She will not go anywhere near the city center.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: cc3 on November 30, 2013, 05:55:10 PM
I really don't see any benefit to existing EU members in the EU embracing Ukraine and bringing them into our fold..it'll just be another country like Greece poncing bail-outs off the rest of us...more trouble than they're worth.
 
Let the Russians have them,it's a pity they didn't want Bulgaria and Rumania too.

Yeah, and only Nigel Farage and UKIP can save UK from being digested by the pseudo-USSR: the EU. (It's actually more socialistic and communist than Russia).
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: cc3 on November 30, 2013, 06:00:04 PM
So who are the Burkut storm troopers?   I failed to see that explained.  Who is paying them to beat up the protesters?  Is it a police force or are they there because of idiology and support the Russian side of the argument?

http://www.specialoperations.com/Foreign/Ukraine/Default.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkut_%28Ukraine%29
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Manny on November 30, 2013, 06:32:24 PM
A sigh of relief for many searching for a Ukrainian bride I guess. If the day ever does come when Ukraine joins the EU the "Ukrainian brides" thing will vanish over night, just like it has for Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania.
So plenty of time to visit those villages still 8)


Exactly right.


Furthermore, the EU doesn't want [and cannot afford] another lame duck; which Ukraine is.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Manny on November 30, 2013, 06:34:33 PM
I really don't see any benefit to existing EU members in the EU embracing Ukraine and bringing them into our fold..it'll just be another country like Greece poncing bail-outs off the rest of us...more trouble than they're worth.
 
Let the Russians have them,it's a pity they didn't want Bulgaria and Romania too.


Agree completely.


The sooner we have a referendum and get out the better. Then we can sit on the sidelines smiling like Switzerland and Norway.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: calmissile on November 30, 2013, 07:26:05 PM
http://www.specialoperations.com/Foreign/Ukraine/Default.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkut_%28Ukraine%29

Thanks for posting the links.  It makes a lot more sense now.

Seems that this quote might have something to do with it.     ;D

"According to Taras Kuzio (as stated in November 2012) in recent years the force has been increasingly used to intimidate anti-government demonstrators and to influence the electoral process.[2]"

Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: The Natural on November 30, 2013, 07:37:16 PM

Agree completely.


The sooner we have a referendum and get out the better. Then we can sit on the sidelines smiling like Switzerland and Norway.

Don't know about Switzerland, but the folks in Norway ain't smiling because even though we're not a member of the EU, the politicians in charge made a deal with them that make us follow most of their idiotic rules anyway.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: lordtiberius on November 30, 2013, 08:13:50 PM

Agree completely.


The sooner we have a referendum and get out the better. Then we can sit on the sidelines smiling like Switzerland and Norway.

No one is stopping you from leaving.  These people want to trade within Europe.  They don't want to be slaves to oligarchs.  Men like JayH and Jone sympathize with their desires and I salute them for it.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Boethius on November 30, 2013, 10:19:19 PM
The Berkut storm troopers were bussed in from the east (Luhansk) and south (Krim).

I read that this is inaccurate.  It does not make sense that troops would be brought in from elsewhere, given there are seven or eight permanent bases, dating back to Soviet times (I can locate 4 off the top of my head) in Kyiv, as the capital, though they were renamed during so called perestroika.


I believe this is disinformation, planted by those who wish to play regions against each other.


Khreshchatyk is probably the most security camera intense street in all of Ukraine.  There is no action on Maidan that cannot be reviewed by security cameras.  Most of that, too, harkens back to Soviet times.  Most of the lamp posts on Khreshchatyk either contain security cameras or listening devices.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: lordtiberius on November 30, 2013, 10:44:27 PM
I read that this is inaccurate.  It does not make sense that troops would be brought in from elsewhere, given there are seven or eight permanent bases, dating back to Soviet times (I can locate 4 off the top of my head) in Kyiv, as the capital, though they were renamed during so called perestroika.


I believe this is disinformation, planted by those who wish to play regions against each other.


Khreshchatyk is probably the most security camera intense street in all of Ukraine.  There is no action on Maidan that cannot be reviewed by security cameras.  Most of that, too, harkens back to Soviet times.  Most of the lamp posts on Khreshchatyk either contain security cameras or listening devices.

Do you have any evidence that the Berkat are not from Luhansk and Crimea?  If so, please post.  Thanks
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Boethius on November 30, 2013, 11:06:21 PM
If you watched the link I provided upthread, you would have seen forces interacting with the crowd, as well as an SBU van attacked in real time.  Some have been taped if you want to go back and watch them.  In both cases, authority figures spoke, or more appropriately, shouted, and all had local accents, for one thing.


I'm not saying there weren't forces from other areas brought in as reinforcements, just that local forces predominated.

There is a detailed report on the events in both the Ukrainian and Russian press.  This started when two Polish protesters threw smoke bombs into police lines.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: mendeleyev on December 01, 2013, 12:00:40 AM
Unconfirmed sources are saying that Moscow may be overseeing the police and dispersal of civilians. If true, watch for more physical crackdowns.

Under CU rules, Moscow heads police and defense policy for all member states. They've not inked agreements yet but according to some the protests spooked Yanukonvict and he may have asked the Kremlin for advice although I can't understand a coal mining thug would need advice. Let Kuchma's hatchet man and now PM handle it.

There is always the option that Moscow wanted to direct and make a quiet but recognizable statement.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Boethius on December 01, 2013, 12:18:36 AM
TBH, I would be surprised were Moscow involved. 

Having listened to reports from the crowds, they said that once the special forces came in, they were brutal and starting beating peaceful demonstrators.


These actions remind me very much of the Toronto G-20 protests.  Those were violent in suppression also, after the first day of the summit, after a police car was set on fire.  Innocent civilians were beaten, many arrested and held in jails for 24 hours on no charge, and for no reason.  The difference is, in Toronto, after relentless reporting in the press, and investigation by the Civil Liberties Union (yup, the same type of group most here disdain), a few officers were charged for illegally beating innocents. 


Here is one story:


http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/09/12/g20_assault_trial_guilty_verdict_for_officer_who_hit_adam_nobody.html (http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/09/12/g20_assault_trial_guilty_verdict_for_officer_who_hit_adam_nobody.html)

Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: lordtiberius on December 01, 2013, 12:25:18 AM
According to the wiki CC3 posted there is one regiment from Crimea and one in Kiev. 

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-yanukovich-violence-protests-534/
http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2013_11_25/Protesters-clash-with-police-near-central-government-office-in-Kiev-6499/
http://en.apa.az/xeber_what_happened_in_kiev_s_maidan__-__span__203506.html

Quote
Oleh Tiahnybok, leader of Svoboda, also reported on his Facebook page that some units were bused in from Luhansk in eastern Ukraine. The police denied busing in any special units from Crimea

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/police-protesters-provoked-violence-332690.html

An official denial from the regional spokesman:

http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/176991.html
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: JayH on December 01, 2013, 01:11:56 AM
http://5.ua/live

Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Manny on December 01, 2013, 03:37:48 AM

Don't know about Switzerland, but the folks in Norway ain't smiling because even though we're not a member of the EU, the politicians in charge made a deal with them that make us follow most of their idiotic rules anyway.


Perhaps, but the UK pays £53m a day to be in it; hopefully your politicians are not dumb enough to sign you up for that up there.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Shadow on December 01, 2013, 03:50:11 AM

Perhaps, but the UK pays £53m a day to be in it; hopefully your politicians are not dumb enough to sign you up for that up there.
I am sure your business would flourish more if you would need to add 5 custom procedures.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: BillyB on December 01, 2013, 11:14:17 AM
Yanukonvict



If the convict in jail won the election instead of this convict, she would have signed on with EU.


I predict the Ukrainian people making some noise for a few weeks and they'll get tired. Until they are ready to go to war over their beliefs as those who done in the Arab Spring, they are going to get more of the same from their government.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: mendeleyev on December 01, 2013, 11:15:46 AM
Interesting perspective from this blogger in Kyiv. Check out the approximate ages of the protesters in his photo.

Translation:
I want our Russian friends to understand that this protest is not against Russia. We love you -- you are our brothers. Our protest is against the entire system of corruption. Thus there is no split of Ukraine (I didn't support the Orange Revolution in 2004).

I was born in Russia and many of my relatives and friends are in Russia. Hopefully they will understand that this revolution is not against Russia and Russians. This time all thinking people have taken to the streets.

Sincerely, Maxim Mikhaylenko, citizen of Ukraine.


http://sadalskij.livejournal.com/1524174.html (http://sadalskij.livejournal.com/1524174.html)
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Manny on December 01, 2013, 04:54:04 PM
I am sure your business would flourish more if you would need to add 5 custom procedures.


We sell a lot to Norway and the US. What's a CN22 form? It takes moments.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Manny on December 01, 2013, 04:55:43 PM
Yeah, and only Nigel Farage and UKIP can save UK from being digested by the pseudo-USSR: the EU. (It's actually more socialistic and communist than Russia).


Not often an American has such a sharp grasp of UK politics.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: cc3 on December 01, 2013, 06:40:38 PM
Nigel Farage is the hope of the non-islamic civilized world, NOT Tsar Vlad.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: TomT on December 01, 2013, 06:48:12 PM
Where do you see the split-- everyone over 45  for Russia--- everyone under 45 for EU !!
Something like that!!!!


The figures below were taken from the Kiev Post.

"... EU... 52% of the respondents aged from 18 to 29...
... [EU]... 41 percent of the respondents aged from 30 to 39...
... Customs Union... 41 percent of the respondents aged from 50 to 59...
... [Customs Union]... 42% of the respondents aged from 60 to 69...
... [Customs Union]... 48 percent of the respondents older than 70..."

No, nothing like that. There was no difference between the 30-39 age group and the 50-59 age group.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: lordtiberius on December 01, 2013, 06:59:11 PM

Anti-Americanism is alive and well
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: lordtiberius on December 01, 2013, 09:19:49 PM
The protestors beat up 8 Berkats and seized the Lenin statue.  They occupy city hall.  Lytenko is calling these rallies revolution.  And we are discussing British politics.  At least Putin is winning somewhere
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: lordtiberius on December 03, 2013, 02:01:54 PM

The figures below were taken from the Kiev Post.

"... EU... 52% of the respondents aged from 18 to 29...
... [EU]... 41 percent of the respondents aged from 30 to 39...
... Customs Union... 41 percent of the respondents aged from 50 to 59...
... [Customs Union]... 42% of the respondents aged from 60 to 69...
... [Customs Union]... 48 percent of the respondents older than 70..."

No, nothing like that. There was no difference between the 30-39 age group and the 50-59 age group.



Quote

http://gokiev.info/culture/ukrainians-want-association-with-eu/

According to a survey conducted by GfK Ukraine in October, 45% of Ukrainians want the signature of an Association Agreement with the European Union. Meanwhile, accession to the Customs Union is supported by only 14% of those surveyed.


The survey also found that the signing of the Association Agreement with the EU is supported by 47% of Party of Regions voters, 70% – supporters of Batkivshchyna Party, 63% – UDAR Party, and only 2% – Communist Party of Ukraine.

The survey was conducted October 2-15, 2013.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: TomT on December 03, 2013, 04:22:18 PM
A poll with fewer than a thousand respondents is junk and one which doesn't state the number of respondents is less than junk, no matter how large a font size that you choose. 
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: jone on December 03, 2013, 04:48:00 PM
Tom,

First of all there were a thousand respondents.  Second, this is a standard polling firm in Ukraine that monitors change in the voting populace and quantifies their results.  Third, they use the same standard that many polling operations use in the United States:

Information about the study:

The survey was conducted within the regular study of electoral preferences of the population based on the Omnibus GfK Ukraine during 2-15 October 2013. The total sample consists of 1000 respondents aged over 16. The sample is representative of the population of Ukraine by gender, age, region and size of locality. The survey was conducted by personal interview. The maximum error of - 3.1%.

Here is the website where the original poll came from:

http://www.gfk.ua/public_relations/press/press_articles/011218/index.ua.html

You might want to revise your previous post. 
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: lordtiberius on December 03, 2013, 04:53:56 PM
A poll with fewer than a thousand respondents is junk and one which doesn't state the number of respondents is less than junk, no matter how large a font size that you choose.

Quote
http://russialist.org/nearly-half-of-ukrainians-favor-association-with-eu-gfk-ukraine/

GfK Ukraine said on Tuesday in publicizing the findings of a public opinion poll of 1,000 respondents it conducted on October 2-15, 2013.


Victoria Nuland, Assistant Secretary of State will join Ambassadors Dan Brooks Baer and Geoff Pyatt at the annual meeting of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe.  Secretary Kerry is snubbing Putin by visiting Moldova.

Poland and Russia on a collision course: Battleground Ukraine
]http://www.flickr.com/photos/110354405@N05/11193740044/

Christopher J. Miller Kyiv Post reports support for Yanokvich weakening in the Donbass region:

http://tvi.ua/new/2013/12/02/shakhtari_vymahayut_vidstavky_yanukovycha
(in ukrainian)

Jacek Saryusz-Wolski, Member of the European Parliament joins the Guardian and calls for a boycott cites Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe.

Anders Aslund of The Peterson Institute for International Economics
http://www.piie.com/blogs/realtime/?p=4124

take aways
Quote

Economically, nothing good is likely to happen for a few months. Realistically, no effective government is to be expected for the next 3 to 4 months, and that hiatus might last for much longer. The following economic consequences appear likely:

1. A general strike of 2 to 3 weeks will certainly hurt the economy, which was already set to contract by one percent this year.

2. State revenues are bound to underperform, since tax collection in Ukraine has been very tough, and it is now set to ease. Meanwhile expenditures will rise as cost control eases. The total expected budget deficit for 2013 is already 8 percent of GDP according to JP Morgan.

3. Naturally, until a new government has emerged, Ukrainian bond yields will rise and Ukraine will be excluded from international financial markets, which will lead to further reserve losses. The few stocks that are still traded are likely to sink.

4. Russia has no reason to give any concession under these circumstances, since no Ukrainian government will be able to credibly promise anything. The expected Russian financing is unlikely to materialize.

5. It would be surprising if this would not lead to a run on the banks and on the currency. The result would be both devaluation and substantial bank failures. Defaults on bonds of state-owned companies such as Naftogaz would be natural consequences.

In the end, when Ukraine has got a government with some legitimacy, the European Union and the International Monetary Fund will have to get into fervent crisis management.

Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Boethius on December 04, 2013, 01:59:46 AM
I really don't see any benefit to existing EU members in the EU embracing Ukraine and bringing them into our fold..it'll just be another country like Greece poncing bail-outs off the rest of us...more trouble than they're worth.
 
Let the Russians have them,it's a pity they didn't want Bulgaria and Rumania too.

Ukraine is not Greece, or Bulgaria, or Romania.  In addition to the world's most fertile land, it also has abundant resources, and many industries, such as aeronautics, shipbuilding (granted, in decline), and weapons.  Its problem, in terms of GDP is not a lack of an educated, motivated work force, or resources to make it a full fledged functioning European country, but rather, its elite classes.  Comprised almost entirely of the former nomenklatura and their offspring, this elite has zero interest in the economic well being, or the improvement of the life of the masses.  Rather, their outlook on life has always been grab as much as you can, as soon as you can, by any means possible.  They basically transformed their political power, which continued unabated on the collapse of the USSR, into economic power.   It is this corruption which keeps Ukraine poor, as it permeates the society from the president's office all the way down to the village mayor who runs the local brick factory, and who, rather than pay his workers, builds himself a mansion and imports a Lexus or Mercedes with the worker's wages.

The worst thievery occurred among the Orangistas.  I recall an ad on Kontakt, a disapora Ukrainian programme, advertising the tour of Yushchenko's priceless personal collection of Ukrainian artifacts.  I saw most of those artifacts, and recognized the majority of them from Kyiv museum collections.  On a visit to Pecherska Lavra, Yushchenko also took a priceless ring, and added that to his personal collection.  Imagine stealing from a church and, not just any church, but the third holiest site in the Slavic Orthodox world!  I tell this story as it illustrates the attitude of this elite, in general.   However, the Orangistas believe that Ukraine in the EU will allow them to legalize their stolen fortunes through European sources.  Of course, they take the Brits bending over for Russian oligarchs, and all the capital that flowed into London real estate, as their example.  However, I don't think that will happen again.  It's a different world, in some ways.  Or, maybe not.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Shadow on December 04, 2013, 02:13:12 AM
In the end it is the old curve between expectation and reality that prompted the unrest.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: lordtiberius on December 04, 2013, 07:33:02 AM
The siege continues

http://twitter.com/ukrpravda_news

Christopher Miller ‏‪@ChristopherJM‬
47m
‪#EuroMaidan‬ latest: Opposition says no round table till govt sacked,  ‪@Yatsenyuk_AP‬ warns protesters of provocations ‪http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/euromaidan-rallies-in-ukraine-live-updates-332341.html …‬


Christopher Miller ‏‪@ChristopherJM‬
1h
'Given events at Independence Square…we decided to stop providing access to the Internet for Berkut.' ‪http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv/internet-service-provider-pulls-plug-on-riot-police-web-access-333015.html …‬ ‪#euromaidan‬


Christopher Miller ‏@ChristopherJM 1h
Head of #Kyiv City State Admin: No use of force planned to liberate city hall http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv/popov-no-use-of-force-planned-to-liberate-kyiv-city-administration-building-333009.html … #euromaidan #ukraine
Expand  Reply  Retweeted  Favorited   More

 Christopher Miller ‏@ChristopherJM 2h
@KyivPost's @kgorchinskaya visits #Kyiv city hall, now Revolution HQ. Protesters bring new order to city hall http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv/protesters-bring-order-to-kyiv-city-hall-333010.html …

James Marson ‏@marson_jr 4h
Protesters wipe their feet on soviet flag at entrance to #euromaidan #Ukraine pic.twitter.com/w427qe2cs3


Jacek Saryusz-Wolski ‏@JSaryuszWolski 7h
Brussels visit of #Ukraine's gov.delegation Arbuzov VPM is a smokescreen to mislead #Euromaidan and keep it freezing.Should be refused.
 Retweeted by Christopher Miller

Site Maidan.Org.Ua ‏@sitemaidan 7h
Government reclaimed Sadova and Shovkovychna streets in the government block in Kyiv #euromaidan

FPI ‏@ForeignPolicyI 20h
Read @FreedomHouseDC's David Kramer in the @WashingtonPost, today: #Ukraine needs Europe’s help against Yanukovych - http://wapo.st/1g0PBxN
 Retweeted by Freedom House

Mykhajlo Datsenko ‏@MVDatsenko 1h
@Kateryna_Kruk PM #Azarov threatens western Oblasts of #Ukraine with denial of state funds for social payments
 Retweeted by Jacek Saryusz-Wolski



Mykhajlo Datsenko ‏@MVDatsenko 1h
@Kateryna_Kruk #Yatsenyuk warns of provocations by government of #Ukraine involving corpses of policemen to start crack-down
 Retweeted by Jacek Saryusz-Wolski


EPP Group ‏@EPPGroup 38m
All together with #Ukraine RT @JSaryuszWolski: "Role of social media in "EuroMaidan essential" || #Ukraine http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/role-of-social-media-in-euromaidan-movement-essential-332749.html … #EPP
 Retweeted by Jacek Saryusz-Wolski

NoweMedia ‏@Nowe_Media 3h
“@JSaryuszWolski: "Role of social media in EuroMaidan essential" || #Ukraine http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/role-of-social-media-in-euromaidan-movement-essential-332749.html …”
 Retweeted by Jacek Saryusz-Wolski

max seddon ‏@maxseddon 5h
Report on Ukraine protest violence, including against journalists and the elderly, from @HRW http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/12/03/ukraine-excessive-force-against-protesters … #euromaidan
 Retweeted by Jacek Saryusz-Wolski

acek Saryusz-Wolski
‏@JSaryuszWolski
VIDEO interview with @GeorgiGotev @EurActiv on Ukraine minutes before the @EPP #EaP summit in Vilnius 28/11/2013 http://www.euractiv.com/video/saryusz-wolski-vilnius-turning-p-532099?utm_source=RSS_Feed&utm_medium=RSS&utm_campaign=EurActivRSS …
 Reply  Retweet  Favorite   More

The New York Times ‏@nytimes 1h
Ukrainian Protesters Block Central Bank http://nyti.ms/IMMJH4
 Retweeted by Kateryna_Kruk


Just Hovens Greve ‏@JustHovensGreve 10h
Far-right agents provocateurs have been infiltrating the #Euromaidan protests in #Ukraine. http://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/anton-shekhovtsov/provoking-euromaidan … #ЄвроМайдан
 Retweeted by ER Ukraine

Steven Pifer ‏@steven_pifer 13h
@MVDatsenko Believe local ambassadors can and are doing that. Worry that #Ukraine govt will exploit presence of foreign ministers.



teven Pifer ‏@steven_pifer 13h
@SouthernF124788 @BrookingsFP  Believe it was. SM-3s in Romania, Poland too slow to engage Russian ICBMs. Nothing else to defend against.

Steven Pifer ‏@steven_pifer 13h
@b_judah  Share same goals. Just differ over which way sends strongest message. I see greater impact in ministers boycotting.
 View conversation

Daniel Baer ‏@danbbaer 1h
Asst Sec. Toria Nuland will arrive in #Kyiv tonight to lead US Del for tomorrow's #OSCE ministerial. She's been in Moldova today w/SecKerry


AndersFogh Rasmussen ‏@AndersFoghR 19h
Sovereign, independent & stable #Ukraine, firmly committed to democracy & rule of law, is key to Euro-Atlantic security. #ForMin
 Retweeted by Geoffrey Pyatt

Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Muzh on December 04, 2013, 09:16:59 AM
Yanukovych's Base Eroding In Ukraine's Russophone East
 
By Robert Coalson December 03, 2013

That old east-west divide ain't what it used to be.
 
When political crises erupt in Ukraine, the fault line traditionally runs along the twisting Dnieper River which divides the Europe-oriented western half from the pro-Russian industrial east.
 
But the current crisis, prompted by President Viktor Yanukovych's decision to hold off on signing a monumental and long-negotiated Association Agreement with the European Union, seems to be showing that that division is not so cut-and-dried as it has been in the past. The politically weakened Yanukovych cannot count on the kind of mass support -- and oligarchic financial backing -- from his home base in the east that he received in the past.
 
As protests continue in Ukraine, the focus has already shifted decisively from the Europe-Russia question to a sort of informal referendum on Yanukovych himself. And as the crisis intensifies, it increasingly illustrates how politically risky the middle course that he has tried to steer between Europe and Russia has actually been.
 
Galvanized By The EU

Nicu Popescu, a senior analyst at the EU Institute for Security Studies in Paris, says, "The front line of Ukrainian public politics seems to be moving into a kind of situation where you have quite a lot of eastern Ukrainians who are disappointed by Yanukovych. So, now the fault line runs not just between east and west, but also within the Yanukovych support groups. Some of them will continue supporting him, and some of them are disappointed by the way he misgoverned Ukraine over the last, almost four years."
 
The "ultimate driver" in the current crisis is dissatisfaction with Yanukovych, while the issue of the EU Association Agreement is really "a galvanizing factor," Popescu adds.  And, historically, the combination of splits within ruling elites and a galvanized political opposition has sometimes produced significant political shifts.
 
To be sure, the protests have been strongest in the western part of the country, which has always been opposed to Yanukovych. While hundreds of thousands were gathering in Kyiv, the situation in the eastern reaches of the country has been calmer.
 
In Donetsk, Yanukovych's political base and the epicenter of Ukraine's pro-Russian industrial core, only about 300 pro-EU protesters took to the streets over the weekend and endorsed opposition calls for the president to resign.
 
In Crimea, a region with strong ties to Moscow that hosts the base of Russia's Black Sea Fleet in Sevastopol, a few dozen pro-Yanukovych demonstrators came out over the weekend waving Russian and Belarusian flags and chanting the slogan, "Forever with Russia."
 
A deputy in the Sevastopol city council from Yanukovych's Party of Regions even initiated a petition to ask Russian President Vladimir Putin to send Russian military forces to Ukraine to restore order and protect the country from "Western secret services and their agents."
 
Support for the opposition's call for a general strike has been weak or absent in the traditionally pro-Russian regions.
 
At the same time, however, open support for Yanukovych has been muted compared to the past. A pro-Yanukovych rally scheduled for December 2 in the president's hometown of Donetsk was abruptly cancelled due to poor turnout.
 
Since his election in 2010, Yanukovych has tried to steer a middle course between Russia and the EU, a policy that now seems to have pleased neither side and left him vulnerable.
 
In 2010, he cut a surprise deal with Moscow to allow Russia's Black Sea Fleet to remain at its base in the Crimean port of Sevastopol until at least 2042, but Moscow failed to respond with the expected concessions on natural-gas prices.   At the same time, he pursued negotiations with the EU and pushed parliamentarians from his Party of Regions to pass significant reforms to improve transparency and the rule of law. Since the government announced its about-face on the Association Agreement, at least five deputies have left the Party of Regions faction in the Verkhovna Rada. Deputy Inna Bohoslovska, a formerly staunch Yanukovych supporter from the eastern city of Kharkiv, has called for his resignation.
 
Perhaps more importantly than soft public support, Yanukovych seems also to be losing the backing of many of the oligarchs who rallied to him in 2010.
 
Kataryna Wolczuk, who teaches politics and international studies at the University of Birmingham, says that the "oligarchs are crucial."
 
"They really rallied behind Yanukovych [in the past] and if he loses the support of the oligarchs, Yanukovych will have to go... There have been some fractures within the Party of Regions, but I haven't seen [them on] the scale which is needed," Wolczuk said.
  Analyst Popescu says Ukraine's oligarchs are ambivalent about whether they'd prefer risking being swallowed up by their Russian counterparts in the event of closer ties with the Moscow-led Customs Union or whether they'd be willing to take a chance with the reforms and transparency necessary for closer relations with the European Union.
 
However, many of them are unhappy with the way Yanukovych has mismanaged the balance among the oligarchs and has insinuated himself and his family among them.
 
"I don't think any of the oligarchs would actually be a huge beneficiary if Ukraine relatively quickly became a state governed by the rule of law. But at the same time they are not very pleased with the way Yanukovych played his hand. He overreached," Popescu  said.
 
"He was not careful enough in maintaining a balance among various oligarchic players. And he himself became basically one of the biggest oligarchs by promoting his family as a key hub of business activity in Ukraine, very often at the expense of oligarchs who were part and parcel of his Party of Regions."
 
Oligarch-Controlled Media

Some signs of shifting political winds are that oligarch-controlled Ukrainian media seemed to shift the tone of their coverage after the violent clashes between police and protesters in Kyiv on the night of November 29-30.
 
The Inter television network, owned by billionaire Dmytro Firtash and Yanukovych's chief of staff, Serhiy Levochkin, began showing live reports from the protests and excerpts of speeches by opposition leaders after the Kyiv violence.
 
Following a police crackdown on protesters over the weekend, Levochkin tendered his resignation -- but Yanukovych says he has refused to accept it.
 
Media outlets controlled by oligarch and former Yanukovych backer Rinat Akhmetov and by fellow oligarch Ihor Kolomoyskyi also seemed to change their tone.
 
Wolczuk says the oligarchs are united in their desire to avoid violence.
 
"The issue is to what extent [the oligarchs] believe Yanukovych can continue to deliver what they need. And it very much, in my view, depends on the popular protests and the perception of the Ukrainians being frustrated and determined to remove Yanukovych from power," Wolczuk said. 
 
"I think that would be probably the tipping point for the oligarchs because they do not want any confrontation and bloodshed."
 
Speaking to journalists on December 2, Volodymyr Prystyuk of the eastern region of Lugansk, accused the oligarch-controlled media of exaggerating anti-Yanukovych discontent in his region.
 
"[The media] show close-up shots, make it seem as if some thousands of people have come out, practically all of Lugansk is on the street and all of them are proclaiming demands about resignation [of the president]," Prystyuk said.
 
"But that isn't happening. And I call to other regions of eastern Ukraine and the picture is the same. I call to Donetsk, Dniepropetrovsk, Zaporozhie, Kharkiv, and the picture is the same. What does this mean? And we know who organized the story with the last so-called Orange Revolution. We know how this is all manipulated. And we know that now there will be attempts to bring money into this region to increase the number of people protesting."
 
Of course, Yanukovych is a political survivor and it is unclear what kind of support Moscow might give him to help him through the current crisis and, if he weathers that, the 2015 presidential election. Ukraine's pro-Western opposition, although currently galvanized, is notoriously prone to fragmentation.
 
But the days for Kyiv's middle course seem to be numbered.
 
RFE/RL (http://www.rferl.org/content/yanukovych-east/25188519.html)
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: lordtiberius on December 04, 2013, 09:42:36 AM
http://online.wsj.com/news/article_email/SB10001424052702304579404579236142724307408-lMyQjAxMTAzMDAwNDEwNDQyWj


Fed Eases Ukraine's Path to Crisis
Loose Money Allowed Ukraine to Avoid Tough Decisions

Quote
By RICHARD BARLEY CONNECT
Dec. 3, 2013 1:13 p.m. ET
The situation in Kiev looks ugly. Pro-Western protesters faced violence from riot police in Ukraine's capital at the weekend and the government endured a no-confidence vote Tuesday. Bond investors face a rising risk of losses.

The immediate cause is President Viktor Yanukovych's high-stakes gamble in refusing to sign a trade-and-political accord with the European Union, instead favoring closer ties with Russia. But the U.S. Federal Reserve's quantitative-easing program has played a part too.

 . . .

Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: TomT on December 04, 2013, 09:58:05 AM
You might want to revise your previous post.


No, my two points remain valid whether LT's thoughtless post was rehabilitated or not. I would like to add a third axiom, though: if one poll shows a 39/37 split and another shows a 45/14 split, then the polls are as corrupt as everything else is in Ukraine.

Be that as it may, it should have been clear that reply #71 refuted the preposterous notion that everyone over and under 45 voted as a solid block and reply #75 was in response to LT's link that failed to indicate the number of respondents.

Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Daveman on December 04, 2013, 10:13:45 AM
A poll with fewer than a thousand respondents is junk and one which doesn't state the number of respondents is less than junk, no matter how large a font size that you choose.


Well, yes, and no... you are correct in that it is far from definitive, however, a number/percentage that far off from expectation should normally lead to the decision that an in depth widespread proper survey is warranted.


Neither junk nor less than junk, but not at the level of credible for conclusionary purpose either.  It's an indicator that something is worth looking into further.



Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: TomT on December 04, 2013, 10:46:51 AM

Well, yes, and no... you are correct in that it is far from definitive, however, a number/percentage that far off from expectation should normally lead to the decision that an in depth widespread proper survey is warranted.


Neither junk nor less than junk, but not at the level of credible for conclusionary purpose either.  It's an indicator that something is worth looking into further.


It should be clear that polls that differ by twenty-nine percentage points, yet claim to have a margin of error of three percentage points (or fewer), are virtually worthless. The light bulb doesn't seem to be going off in very many heads that the results don't reflect reality.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: lordtiberius on December 04, 2013, 10:53:36 AM
If the poll was bogus, then why would a former US Ambassador cite it?

Meanwhile back in Ukraine, Azarov is fighting for his political life
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25213671


Klichko gives an interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx7p2GoXMbY
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: TomT on December 04, 2013, 10:56:50 AM
If the poll was bogus, then why would a former US Ambassador cite it?


"Appeal to authority"
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: lordtiberius on December 04, 2013, 11:29:37 AM
Estonian President says Association Agreement NOT EU membership:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtAbQrPNxB8
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Muzh on December 04, 2013, 12:44:07 PM
Estonian President says Association Agreement NOT EU membership:



Are you under the impression that the crowd in Independence Square are revolting for EU membership?
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Daveman on December 04, 2013, 01:05:40 PM

a number/percentage that far off from expectation should normally lead to the decision that an in depth widespread proper survey is warranted.




It should be clear that polls that differ by twenty-nine percentage points, yet claim to have a margin of error of three percentage points (or fewer), are virtually worthless. The light bulb doesn't seem to be going off in very many heads that the results don't reflect reality.


Which results?   One or both could be a reflection of a political slant.  Polls are often used to sway perceptions with little regard to reality. The proclivity for disingenuity in the camps of either pollsters or analysts (or those pulling their strings) cannot be discounted.  When numbers vary to such a degree it is a clear indicator of something.  That's the beacon which should be sparking into brightness regarding any poll derivative.



Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: TomT on December 04, 2013, 03:11:34 PM
One or both could be a reflection of a political slant.

Damn right!

Take a look at how Mason-Dixon, The Florida Times, Gravis Marketing, Rasmussen, Fox, ARG and Sunshine State News tried to influence the outcome in Florida during the last presidential election. Multiply their BS by a factor of ten and we have what's going on in Ukraine. It's impossible to say where the truth lies.


[Edit for spelling]
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: jone on December 04, 2013, 03:29:51 PM
I read a bunch of articles on that perspective after the election.  I'm not convinced that such was the case.  Those who look at polling numbers every day realize that they are are based on a probability model.  Therefore, with the polling of a thousand people, and based on their aptitude, certain inferences can be drawn.

When I looked at the Ukrainian polling models that were related in the base assumptions, the large disparity was not due to rejection of the Russian offering, but more to the expectation that the EU offer was going to be signed. 

The modeling that was done was based on polling done in the past Presidential elections and the tendencies of certain population centers to vote a certain way.  Predictive polling can be off, but not by gross numbers, just by small numbers.  In the Obama/Romney election, the difference between Romney and Obama in Florida was NOT within the margin of error, but based, largely on the base numbers of Republicans and Democrats assumed by the polling entities.  These were the numbers that were skewed.

Even so, the polls were off less than 10% of the final tally.  If that were the case in Ukraine, then the headlines are still accurate.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: JayH on December 04, 2013, 03:44:31 PM
Ukraine is not Greece, or Bulgaria, or Romania.  In addition to the world's most fertile land, it also has abundant resources, and many industries, such as aeronautics, shipbuilding (granted, in decline), and weapons.  Its problem, in terms of GDP is not a lack of an educated, motivated work force, or resources to make it a full fledged functioning European country, but rather, its elite classes.  Comprised almost entirely of the former nomenklatura and their offspring, this elite has zero interest in the economic well being, or the improvement of the life of the masses.  Rather, their outlook on life has always been grab as much as you can, as soon as you can, by any means possible.  They basically transformed their political power, which continued unabated on the collapse of the USSR, into economic power.   It is this corruption which keeps Ukraine poor, as it permeates the society from the president's office all the way down to the village mayor who runs the local brick factory, and who, rather than pay his workers, builds himself a mansion and imports a Lexus or Mercedes with the worker's wages.

  I am well and truly over those  that keep rubbishing Ukraine-- in every aspect. It has been an extremely difficult fallout from the FSU breakup and Ukraine has been left on it's own to fend for itself. If it had had a big brother state to assist eg as East Germany did with West Germany in the German integration the situation in Ukraine could have been vastly different today.
 Instead--the wealth of the country was diverted into the hands of the privileged few-- btw Mrs Boe --that did not start under the Orangistas!!
What the Orange period showed -- was that the people have a voice-- and they want it heard.In the long run--one way or another the peoples "will " will prevail.
There is an important point about Ukraine that sets it aside-- the standard of education has been very high-- excellent in many technical areas.What is needed is the investment to change that and start capitalising on some of the advantages  that Ukraine has. :) :) :'(
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: lordtiberius on December 04, 2013, 04:53:07 PM
Early elections in the offing?
http://newsradio.com.ua/rus/2013_12_04/Pravitelstvo-gotovo-obsuzhdat-voprosi-o-dosrochnih-parlamentskih-i-prezidentskih-viborah-Arbuzov/

http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/politics/3274431-hlava-myd-hermanyy-posetyl-evromaidan-v-kyeve
German Foreign Minister meets with Opposition and Maidan Protestors

Goldilock's daughter on Yanokovych:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmHSMH03Dqg
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Muzh on December 05, 2013, 09:42:41 AM
  I am well and truly over those  that keep rubbishing Ukraine-- in every aspect. It has been an extremely difficult fallout from the FSU breakup and Ukraine has been left on it's own to fend for itself. If it had had a big brother state to assist eg as East Germany did with West Germany in the German integration the situation in Ukraine could have been vastly different today.
 Instead--the wealth of the country was diverted into the hands of the privileged few-- btw Mrs Boe --that did not start under the Orangistas!!
What the Orange period showed -- was that the people have a voice-- and they want it heard.In the long run--one way or another the peoples "will " will prevail.
There is an important point about Ukraine that sets it aside-- the standard of education has been very high-- excellent in many technical areas.What is needed is the investment to change that and start capitalising on some of the advantages  that Ukraine has. :) :) :'(

You sound a little confused.
 
First, it was West Germany who behaved like a big brother to East Germany in the integration process. And then you refer to Ukraine as needing a big brother to integrate. Like who? Poland or Russia. Pick your poison.
 
Also, the full scale robbery started with the Orangistas. Not the people but the scum who draped themselves in Orange scarfs claiming to be "for the people." Fcuking scum. Nothing but old KGB bastards.
 
Finally, the people always had the voice, it just happens that they were in diapers. Literally.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: JayH on December 05, 2013, 04:40:33 PM

You sound a little confused.
 
First, it was West Germany who behaved like a big brother to East Germany in the integration process. And then you refer to Ukraine as needing a big brother to integrate. Like who? Poland or Russia. Pick your poison.
 


Words say it--  IF.........(Ukraine had  a big brother LIKE ) East Germany DID with West Germany looking after it  etc  . to spell it out for you it was a soift landing for a repressed state and it's people.The point being made is that was NOT the situation in Ukraine and in the ensuing chaos(over a period of time) the countries assets have been plundered.

No confusion from me-- but clearly reading comprehension needs brushing up before telling me I am confused. :cluebat: :cluebat:
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: lordtiberius on December 05, 2013, 05:47:35 PM
I have been watching Administrations come and go since the end of the Cold War.  I don't think Americans understand or appreciate Ukraine, its strategic importance or the opportunity it offers.  Lets hope Brussels does.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: TomT on December 05, 2013, 06:20:51 PM
Your reading comprehension is fine, Muzh; he doesn't know East from West.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: JayH on December 06, 2013, 12:21:10 AM
 :deadhorse:
Your reading comprehension is fine, Muzh; he doesn't know East from West.


Ukraine has been left on it's own to fend for itself.

 If it had had a big brother state to assist

eg as East Germany did with West Germany in the German integration the situation in Ukraine could have been vastly

Instead--the wealth of the country was diverted into the hands of the privileged few-

I equate Ukraine with East Germany as both countries  came out  of the cold war situation to rejoin the world. West Germany  made that landing softer for East Germany .
How much clearer could it be?
Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill !!
Clearly carrying bags affects your comprehension too !! :welcome:
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: lordtiberius on December 06, 2013, 12:01:00 PM

For the eye candy watchers, 23 year old Femem activist Inna Shevchenko contributes to this discussion French TV:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZi9CnSUvXI
(http://media.meltybuzz.fr/article-1620218-ajust_930-f1373893002/inna-shevchenko-leader-des-femens-a-pose.jpg)
To close the segment Ms. Shevchenko prophesies that Ukraine will join the Europe.  The French Aslyee hails from Kherson, hardly a pro-facist sympathizer from Western Ukraine as Russia (putin) Tv makes her out to be.

Iranian State TV says that the EU made a bad deal and tactically  blew it.  Ukraine exports $ 16 Billion to Russia and $ 17 Billion to Europe and that Europe did offer anything to Russia to compensate it if Russia acted on its threat to go to a trade war.  EU tactically blundered by tying Tymoshenko's release to the agreement.

But what would Russia gain by a trade war?  Russia also imports $ 17.5 B into the Ukrainian economy and is the 4th in foreign investment into Ukraine behind the United States and the Euorpean Union.  A trade war would risk that investment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhqj9kNidCs
http://rt.com/business/eu-trade-deal-vilnius-449/
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: mendeleyev on December 24, 2013, 02:03:43 PM
(Mendeleyev Journal (http://wp.me/peVMt-37a))

Is this banner true? Whether Russia and Ukraine really represent "One people, one story/history" as this social media banner suggests has long been a part of the debate over the fate of Ukraine and her relationship to Russia.

(http://russianreport.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/ukraine-rus-one-people-one-story.jpg) (http://russianreport.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/ukraine-rus-one-people-one-story.jpg)

As we write this column we are listening to a fascinating interview on Moscow's Radio Echo with socialite and TV personality Kseniya Sobchak. Until her marriage last February, Sobchak was somewhat of a combination of Paris Hilton meets Madonna when she wasn't marching with the opposition movement against Vladimir Putin, an old family friend of her father who just happened to be Putin's mentor in earlier days. Somehow Sobchak remains in Putin's nominal good graces, even having Christmas dinner with the Putin family when not out marching on the streets.

The interview called our attention to an article that is creating quite a stir. The article was authored by Aleksandr Lebedev, a businessman with interests in both Russia and Ukraine. According to Lebedev, "Ukraine could become a new California if she expels her stagnant past." That is the premise of a recently published article (http://www.inopressa.ru/article/23Dec2013/inopressa/ukraina_obzor.html) in the Russian language magazine In Pressa (http://www.inopressa.ru/article/23Dec2013/inopressa/ukraina_obzor.html) in which Lebedev says that the territory and population of Ukraine is comparable with France given that it has a deep rivers, forests, and ice-free seaports.

Lebedev believes that Ukraine's soil is so fertile that it could easily feed two planets like ours, thus apparently his reasoning for titling Ukraine as a potential новая Калифорния (new California). With those comparisons, why he doesn't think of Ukraine as a "new France" would be an interesting question.

He does have a way to bring the subject to the topic at hand in Kyiv. Subject to constant invasions, Ukraine has historically attracted invaders and except for a few years at the end of the First World War has never had the opportunity to develop a truly independent state. Soon after WWI the Bolsheviks succeeded in forcing Ukraine back into the Russian fold.

Kyiv (Kiev) the capital of Ukraine is often considered the birthplace of Russia and the author addresses the question of the Russian Empire as a colonial power in Ukraine and whether Ukrainians are "little Russians" as Russia likes to think or were Ukrainians a separate and distinct people?

As to whether Ukrainians are a distinct people, polls show a variety of opinions and not surprisingly, many Russians regard Ukrainians little brothers, somewhat inferior, but related just the same. Western Ukrainians general self-identify as distinct while Eastern Ukrainians with their strong ties to Russia typically think of themselves are Russian.

(http://russianreport.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/lukashenko-comments-free-europeans-vs-rus-slaves.jpg) (http://russianreport.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/lukashenko-comments-free-europeans-vs-rus-slaves.jpg)

Even the Communist dictator of Belarus, Aleksandr Lukashenko, has decided to weigh in on the issue. The above caption is from Lukashenko's VK page (Russian language social media site) and supposedly shows the plight of "free Europeans" in Kyiv on the left as contrasted with Russia's supposed "slave regime" showing a peaceful scene of Russian citizens happily ice skating on Moscow's Red Square. Lukashenko has aligned Belarus as a member of the Russian Customs (trade/economic) Union.

Today the Prime Minister of Ukraine, Mykola Azarov, met with Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev and then joined the presidents of Russia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, and Armenia in Moscow for a meeting to approve the entry of  Kyrgyzstan and Armenia into the Russian Customs Union and the Eurasian Economic Council.

(http://russianreport.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/putin-ukr-pm-mykola-azarov.jpeg) (http://russianreport.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/putin-ukr-pm-mykola-azarov.jpeg)

President Putin welcomed Prime Minister Mykola Azarov to the Kremlin today. Ukrainian Prime Minister Azarov is an outspoken champion for Ukraine to develop closer ties with the country of his birth, Russia.

Meanwhile in Kyiv, Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych signed into law the bill for a general amnesty and aimed at preventing prosecution or punishment of individuals in regard to events that took place during recent protests in Ukraine. The law removes liability from protestors from November 21 until the bill comes into effect. Those arrested are to be freed immediately and their police records wiped clean.

Opposition leaders however are concerned that the language of the bill may still give prosecutors license to act as the bill provides amnesty to those involved in peaceful protests and most of the recent rallies has not been that peaceful.

Meanwhile Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovich addressed the Ukrainian Rada (parliament) today by saying the events of Euromaiden have been driven by the desire for a better life. He defended his rejection of the EU agreement by saying, "the Association Agreement with the EU would have caused economic losses in agriculture, transport mechanical engineering, aircraft manufacturing and other high-tech spheres. If we sign this Agreement under such terms people will not forgive this mistake."

Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: lordtiberius on December 24, 2013, 02:15:55 PM
is it true that Vitya recently suffered a stroke?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foFcVKZ1OCA
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: mendeleyev on December 24, 2013, 03:32:53 PM
A stroke?

Yesterday one major news outlet published an unconfirmed report that he was hospitalized, but Voice of Russia is today reporting that as false.

Yesterday he held a meeting with Prime Minister Mykola Azarov and Chairman of the Verkhovna Rada Volodymyr Rybak and today he signed the amnesty bill into law and his office released statements on four major issues.

His press office has not allowed photos to be released since Dec 19 and no videos have been cleared since December 8, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

I don't have an answer yet but don't think it to be true.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: lordtiberius on December 24, 2013, 03:59:28 PM
Anonymous has attached themselves to the opposition.  They are known for their hoaxes.  But then again Yanuk is known for being hoaxy himself.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: mendeleyev on December 30, 2013, 11:40:39 AM
(Mendeleyev Journal (http://wp.me/peVMt-37O))

President Putin's schedule has been almost completely revamped given the events over the past days in Volgograd. While preparations for the Winter Olympics race forward in Sochi, the rest of the country is in a bit of a shock.

We're not likely to hear much about the Customs Union, and especially inclusion of Ukraine, in the coming days until the government gets a handle on the violence coming from the Caucasus region of Russia where militants wish to create an Islamic super state under separatist rule by Muslim clerics as in Iran. The very nature of the Olympic games will divert focus from the Customs Union as well.


(http://russianreport.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/customs-union-sticker.jpg) (http://russianreport.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/customs-union-sticker.jpg)

Even so, grassroots efforts to promote the expanded trade area, and wooing Ukraine to join, may slow for awhile but will certainly move back to centre stage once the Olympics have ended. Already we're seeing efforts to bring the grassroots efforts along.


(http://russianreport.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/customs-union-sticker-b.jpg) (http://russianreport.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/customs-union-sticker-b.jpg)


я за таможенный союз (I'm for the Customs Union) and русское единство (Russian unity) are themes which play well across the heartland of Russia.

We'll have to wait and see how well the theme plays in Ukraine.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: Muzh on December 30, 2013, 11:48:51 AM
My wife was talking with my outlaws yesterday and gave the latest on the street.
 
They know of pro-Russian neighbors and co-workers who are changing their tune, drastically.
 
Some are even taking about forming a united group from Kharkiv and drive to Kyiv to help those in need. Many have children (well young adults) living in Kyiv for school and work and the children are the ones who are "educating" their parents.
 
They are in for the long haul. Many parents are afraid and now resigned they may lose their kids.
 
My SIL looked emaciated. We had to explain to her that she will not be of any help to her son if she dies. She promised she will eat.
Title: Re: Ukraine rejects EU
Post by: lordtiberius on December 30, 2013, 02:00:06 PM
I am sure there's a logical explanation.

(http://static.euronews.com/articles/250914/640x360_250914.jpg?1387987982)

If Hitler had his Olympics, I don't see why Vladi can't have his.