Russian Women Discussion

RWD Discussion Groups => Experienced => Topic started by: scarface816 on September 25, 2019, 05:29:06 AM

Title: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 25, 2019, 05:29:06 AM
Hello

I have a question for the senior men and women on here. I met this sweet educated Ukrainian woman online about 8 months ago. We hit it off right away and have been building a strong relationship so far moving toward getting her K1 and her 16 YO daughter's K2 Visa to come to the US. Even though she prefers to stay in Europe she said she would live wherever I live.

So after we met online we texted and chatted and skyped about 5 times per week consistently and I planned a trip to her home city. She was happy to see me come and she set aside a long week to spend with me. I got an apartment not far from her flat and headed out there. We met at the airport and started our courtship. She was always dressed to the nines wherever we went and was a wonderfully pleasant and interesting woman. She was very traditional and respected men and womens roles.

We talked about many things. But one of the things I had made sure to talk about and observe is how she talked about family. She was always talking about her parents and grandparents and I could see that she was very close to them. We grew closer and were having a good trip. But because of the scammer issue and my own personal trust issues, I was on the lookout. Probably too much.

As we progressed I attempted to get intimate with her but she rebuffed my advances which is to be expected. However, we were progressing physically but at a slow pace. But in my opinion, this is an important hurdle that we both need to get over. Our physical touch and eye contact and body language was excellent and continued to progress. In fact, we were getting closer and closer spending each full day and night together.

On about the fourth day we were getting into some heavy making out but not closing the deal. I only tell you this to help gauge our level of intimacy.  Then she told me that she had to do some work out of the blue and left me for the most part of one day to my own devices. I went around and saw some sites and did a little work in my apartment. I was not happy with her but took it in stride. When we met up she was just as affectionate and sweet as before. I talked to her about leaving me hanging all day when I had traveled so far and she apologized which I thought was a significant advancement. She wanted to go into some stores in the town center and I figured she is about to start asking me to buy stuff for her.

I would wait outside while she went into the stores. Eventually, we went to get some coffee and a local pub. She does not really drink. I don't drink much either. She then asked me if I would buy her some shoes tomorrow because she needs them. She is a professional educated woman but does not make a lot of money.

At this point, I told her no and then overreacted. The shoes were not the issue probably would have cost $40. We had a long discussion and in all honesty, I was bringing more drama than her. I was surprised at the request and did not expect this and was probably too sensitive to this issue. I then put her in a cab home and I went off to my apartment. We did not have mean words to each other but she could tell I got angry and felt this was overreacting. And yes I did not react correctly.

She said that since we were together this was normal and I should buy things that make her happy or that she needs. She also told me this was a test. I went back to my apartment and changed my flight for the next morning to leave. Cutting my trip short. We texted that night a little and then the next morning I went back to the US.

We continued to text after I got home and I felt bad about overreacting and the shoes being a relatively cheap item. I am not a cheap person. I have spent untold thousands on my ex-wife when we were married. She was not mad and never got mad or manipulative. She never tried to convince me or change my mind and I noticed this.

Then she got Pneumonia and had to get treatment. I encouraged her to go to a good doctor and to do what she needed to get better and I would send her money. I ended up sending her about $800 for the doctor and the medicine. I thought this may be a lot for the doctor but I was trying to deal with my trust issues and give her the benefit of the doubt.

Our relationship progressed and we planned another trip to meet in a city in Europe. She easily agreed and we met and had a wonderful time it was intimate and I must say the sex was amazing. We also had long conversations and quality time together. She is the kind of person that is very pleasant and never has a hard word to say about anyone. We had a few minor scrapes but nothing major.

This entire time together and via skype and text our conversations were like two lovers very close very complimentary very sweet and with adoration. I tell you this only to gauge the quality of the relationship. She asked me to buy her a few small items cosmetics and shoes of course but the sum total was around $100. Not big and this time I did not hesitate.

We got back home and we continued our loving relationship over skype and text. She had been having some problems in her practice with her management harassing her and she had told me about her friend that had her own practice. So I recommended she join in with her friends practice to get away from her bad management. She agreed talked to her friend and they made an arrangement. Then she asked me for money to split the first month's office rent with her friend in the new practice. I asked how much and she said $950. It seemed like a lot but I agreed knowing my issues in the past I wanted to get past that.

She started her new practice and seemed to be doing well. Two months down the road we talked about meeting in another European city. And she of course agreed. At no time has she indicated any disinterest in me. She has always been sweet and caring and engaged. I have never discovered any indication of dishonesty or duplicity or any malice at all.

When we do talk of meeting she always wants to meet for more time than I allot and sooner than I recommend. So I can safely say she is into me. I feel it. I start the K1 visa process and she is doing her part on the forms no hesitation. We start to plan our next trip and she tells me her partner in her practice is 9 months pregnant and may need to leave the practice and asks me for another $950 for rent until she can decide what to do or find another partner for the practice to split it with her.

At this point, it triggers my trust issues and I ask a few questions. She answers them but she is watching my face on skype and she is very perceptive. She knows my communication and my face very well. The next day we talk and she asks for the money and I refuse. This surprises her and she asks why. I had talked with my friend about it who is very supportive of our relationship and he did not think it was a good idea. I was having problems with it also.

I explained it seemed like a lot of money for rent in Ukraine $1900 for one office. She explained that they were consistent at this building and did not charge extra for heat in the winter. I asked her what she would do if I was not there? She did not answer this. But I could tell she was sad. Not angry per se or any drama. And I stayed even-tempered and cool but held my ground. I have no way to verify her situation or know the truth. I have to trust her. But she has never knowingly lied to me yet.

But I could tell there was a slight change in her attitude which is understandable. I am of course inside my mind very worried about this. My own trust and abandonment issues come up now. Did I do the wrong thing? Should I proceed as normal? I texted her goodnight last night and she responded in kind. I texted her this morning and I could tell she was slightly off her normal sweetness on text. But it is very slight.

I am very worried about this issue and how to proceed in the future. I am laying it on the line here guys. You are hearing my real story and I am asking for your advice. Should I just wait and see? Should I try to engage her in a new conversation about it? I am also concerned that she may have legitimate financial trouble. Should I just go ahead and send her the money?

When we were discussing it last night she said to me "but you told me I was your girl don't you want to take care of me?" I did not know what to say to this. Please tell it to me straight. I am not looking for abusive comments just real honest help.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on September 25, 2019, 06:15:24 AM
OMG!!!

are you serious?
RUN FOREST RUN!!!!

cut your losses, chalk it up as tuition in the university of RW and move on...
stop "trying to hang on to a fantasy"
it's not real, and you're being used
and the cost to you LATER, will be MUCH higher then what you've put into it so far...
and I hope you realize that every time you "pay a bill" it means it is much more likely that there will be future bills that will grow in size
get the picture?


NEXT TIME...

if you're not imitate in the way you want by the 3rd date with a RW, then move on...
YOU take control and establish what the parameters are of your relationship
NEVER, EVER, be passive with a Russian woman,
because if you are, THEY will NOT be passive with you!
and they will consider you to be weak, and "not a real man", and so by their 'logic' perfectly OK for them to just use you!
to prevent that, YOU must be the "commandeer" or leader of the relationship to earn her respect
this is what she EXPECTS and WANTS (but with "generosity")
a lot of American guys screw up completely by being passive with a Russian woman
and as a result, they must passively fulfill the requests made of them or risk losing the relationship...
so what is the woman risking in this scenario?
as long as you keep giving the money, NOTHING!

bottom line: move on from your current situation and learn from it....
many. many fish in the sea

tell me more 'bout yourself, and I'll tell ya where and how to fish for em

my "bona fides"

married 19 yr to a RW, we have 2 teenage children
I lived in Kyiv and Crimea, and just starting in Moscow part-time
I speak Russian (which if you're serious, you should as well...)
big problem for you is your naive behavior, not your fault, you're western
but to a Russian, you look like an "easy mark", and Russia has a LOT of scammers looking for people like you
so learn how to adjust your thinking...


*note: I realize she is CURRENTLY Ukrainian, but....(sigh) Russians don't want me talkin' bout that here anymore...




Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: SteveInBoston on September 25, 2019, 06:18:35 AM
Hi,

You screwed up over the shoe thing, but got passed it.

The doctor bill seems suspect, but I leave that to you to determine.

About the $1900 monthly rent for an office space - that seems way too high.  I assume the city is nit Kyiv?  Kyiv would be the most expensive, and it's very high even for there.

What type of profession does she have that generates enough revenue to support such a high expense?

You said you and her are working on the K1 process.  When did you get engaged?

After engagement the two of you should be able to discuss finances.  You are planning to get married and share lives.  You should be aware of her income, and she should be aware of yours. 

One day, after my wife and I were engaged, she received a lot of text alerts in the morning.  Actually, she always received these text alerts on weekdays. But after we were engaged, I asked about them.  Instead of explaining, she handed me her phone and told me to look.  It was alerts from her bank regarding deposits from her store.  She set it up to where her store manager deposited the previous day's revenue in categorized sums.  So I knew exactly how much she earned, and she had no problem sharing such details with me.

You said your fiance is sad or upset that you don't trust her.  But does she trust you enough to share her financial details?

If you see that her business revenue justifies the office rental expense, then you should support her.  But if her income doesn't align, then she's bad at business or managing money.

So, she's either genuine and just has a hiccup in expenses, is lying, or is bad with money.  You need to talk to her and discuss financial details to determine what is what.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: BC on September 25, 2019, 06:52:38 AM
The day we were officially engaged, I gave her one of my visa credit cards and took responsibility for our finances and preparations for our wedding. The few withdrawals were often less than the ATM fees... : /

Of course, each relationship will be different as will be the answers you see posted here.

Shoes, yeah at that point a screwup but as Steve noted seems y'all got past that.

What caught my eye was the amounts for the bout of pneumonia and reasoning behind renting an office and going into/maintaining a biz partnership which seems like a long term commitment.  How's that going to work if the intent is to emigrate?

Bottom line as I see it is if the trust you are building together is a one way street or a highway going both directions.  You'll likely find your answer therein.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on September 25, 2019, 07:24:02 AM
ok... learning moment for you...
as a malchick with a lot of Russian experience
let me share with you, the Russian perspective
on why with a 100% certainty she’s a scammer, and you’re her mark...

ok, откуда мне знать?
how do I know?

she didn’t sleep with you...
cuz 100% guaranteed, if she was planning on being your “happily ever after” 100% she would’ve had sex with you, 100%!!!!
think about it...

see, scammers aren’t gonna tell ya they’re scammers, nope...
what they’re gonna tell ya is that they’re your “one and only"
and because you’re naive
you believe ‘em
but they’re NOT!

WHY?
because they’re NOT BEHAVING like they are...
and the relationship is really about $$$$
and she gives you just enough, to keep you on the hook, so you want MORE!!!

THIS IS the most classic Russian scam that there is
right next to the one about finding the dropped wallet on the sidewalk (google if you don’t know)

and as if THAT’s not enough for you to consider...
then how about this thought...

if you’re ALREADY having these kinda issues at this early stage
whadda ya think’s gonna happen after you say “I do”
how long before you’re searching for attorneys on the web?

horrosho?

look, this is normal, and all part of the "learning process"
I had a lot of "dry runs" with other women in Ukraine and Russia before I met and married my wife
this is normal
and each experience propelled me higher towards the next, until success
but DON'T marry a scammer!!!!

there was a guy on this board Scotincrimea
who married a scammer!!!!
soon as he bought her property in Ukraine in her name
and then came to the usa, she divorced him
got support and all property in ukraine

AND...
AND...
I warned him, just like I'm warning you...





Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: ML on September 25, 2019, 08:03:51 AM
None of us know for sure, but . . .

The saying here is that a good FSU (or probably from anywhere) woman will NOT be asking her man or any man for money or to buy her things.

One little departure is that I have experienced several FSU women who will add some small items for themselves in my shopping cart while out and about.  e.g. They might add some fingernail polish and a magazine to the cart along with food items we were buying without even asking.  Or, when at fast food restaurant they will add an extra sandwich to the order to take to a child later without even asking.

But I never had a 'good one' ask me to purchase them something substantial or give cash for some expense, etc.   Yes, when going on vacation trips, it is understood that we men will pay for everything, although I have encountered a few who insisted on paying for their own flight, etc.

Even with the 'good girls' fairly quick sex is the norm in FSU.  I never actually pushed very hard for sex at all and just waited for the gal to initiate or give very clear indication that she was ready for the event.  A few times the gal even told that she was having her period and that it would be done in X days.  There probably were a few gals who were having their periods, did not tell me, and did not act in a way (as analyzed by me)  that indicated they wanted to continue our relationship simply because of this and I moved on.   This latter case could have been the situation you encountered with your gal on the first trip as there are certainly some gals who simply will not tell about their periods to any man.

Now it is entirely possible that you are completely inexperienced with dating (even if you have been married before and dated a lot before in earlier years) and are so in need of female companionship that you simply fell head over heels for this gal just as you would have for any warm body and have romanticised how compatible you two are and how much you think she is 'into' you.  This can be particularly true when western man goes to FSU because of his ability to 'trade up' in looks above what he can achieve in the local market.

My advice:  Cut your losses with this gal.  Get back into the market and go meet 10 or more FSU gals during one trip so that you have a basis for comparison.

My bonafides:  30 or more trips to FSU over 15 years or so (mostly on business for first 10 years of that) having first dates with over 150 FSU women, third dates and more with probably 50 or so, extended time (a week or more) with 20 or so, month long visits/trips with 9, and now living with FSU gal here in USA for 9 years.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: 2tallbill on September 25, 2019, 08:04:59 AM
She isn't a good girl. No good girl would ask a man that she is casually
dating for any of those things. She would let you buy dinner and pay for
a taxi, flowers sure, but shoes? No way. 

I agree with Krimster, run Forest Run!

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 25, 2019, 08:09:43 AM
Maybe I did not make it very clear in my original post but I did have sex with her a lot of very enthusiastic wild sex. On our second meeting. I was testing her to see if she would be compliant with me sexually and she always was.

And when we talk now we talk about what we are going to do sexually on our next meeting all the time. When I say we should meet in two months she says let's meet in a month. If I say let's plan a trip for week she says two weeks.

I am not saying this to brag but to give you details that would indicate to me that she is into me. Or am I wrong?
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: ML on September 25, 2019, 08:19:22 AM
Maybe I did not make it very clear in my original post but I did have sex with her a lot of very enthusiastic wild sex. On our second meeting. I was testing her to see if she would be compliant with me sexually and she always was.

And when we talk now we talk about what we are going to do sexually on our next meeting all the time. When I say we should meet in two months she says let's meet in a month. If I say let's plan a trip for week she says two weeks.

I am not saying this to brag but to give you details that would indicate to me that she is into me. Or am I wrong?

Women have known how to use sex to control men for, let's see . . . like 5,000 years or so.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: BillyB on September 25, 2019, 08:26:16 AM
If you started a K-1, she is your fiancée and you are in a serious relationship. People in serious relationships share their finances.

If you have trust issues with her you should not have entered into a serious relationship. Trust issues need to be resolved before proceeding further.  Of course no woman wants to marry a stingy man so she has questions about who you are but you got past the shoes test. Why does she need money to advance her business when she should be thinking about living with you?
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 25, 2019, 08:37:46 AM
The trust issues are my issues. She did not say she wants to advance her busines she wanted the money to  pay rent because her partner is out on maternity leave and will most likely not ne returning. And she needs to find another partner.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 25, 2019, 08:41:04 AM
She could possibly be using sex to manipulate me. That is possible like it is with all women like our current wives and girlfriends. I was responding to krimster saying I did not have sex with her.

I may be wrong but she looked pretty into me. I have been with many women and I know when a woman is not interested sexually and that is a big turnoff for me. I am out the door immediately.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on September 25, 2019, 08:43:46 AM
what I mean by not being passive is the following:

always anticipate a woman's needs, and TAKE CARE OF IT!!!
BUT...
I discuss ahead of time with her, about how I am going to handle these things...
AND DON'T WAIT FOR HER TO COME TO ME!
we talk about what they are and how much they cost AND WHETHER IT'S WORTH IT OR NOT!!...
this topic should have come up VERY early in your relationship
and after this conversation, any unanticipated bills, viewed with skepticism
ask yourself this question, what would your GF had done
if you hadn't come along to pay her bills...

what would be reasonable would be a few hundred per month for living expenses
and as previously mentioned, why shell out that kinda money for a business she's walking away from
scams always have these little logical inconsistencies, because they're lies
she can say whatever she wants, how can you verify?

BTW,

there's a kinda calculus about this, by that I mean this thang about a Ukrainian woman
is a lot like algebra when you're trying to balance an equation
when ya got a negative on one side, like a 16 yr old daughter
means to balance
there's gotta be a negative on your side
like your age
are you over 60?

did you alter your post?
cuz when I originally read it, looked like 3rd base but no home run!


don't you think Russian roulette is a fun game?
I like the sound the cylinder makes when you spin it!!!
the cool thing about losing at Russian roulette
is you NEVER know you lost!
only if you win!!!

wait a second, doesn't every business make more than the rent?
so why doesn't the business just pay the damn rent?
and if she needs the money cuz a a partner is leaving
maybe time to shut down the damned business
especially if she's seeking a K1

so my advice, if you're still considering this....
offer her a stipend to support herself and just walk away from the business
till she's approved

the real problem isn't her
it's your lack of experience

all Russian/Ukrainian women need a 'firm hand'
a take charge kinda guy...
your wife comes to you with a bill, you evaluate it, is it worth it, yes or no...
if yes, pay it...
if no, don't
BUT YOU EVALUATE IT!!!!
and don't just pay it cuz she says to...
feel the difference
is this business worth $1900 per month to you, what's it's monthly balance sheet, you better know these things, CUZ it's YOUR business now!
did you even bother to find out about it?
see what I mean...






Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: BillyB on September 25, 2019, 08:50:20 AM
And she needs to find another partner.

Why? She should be preparing for a life with you. You could even give her a monthly allowance so she can quit her job. A man should be able to do this for a fianceé he loves and trust.

Since you claim the trust issues are yours she should not have agreed to marry you until trust issues from both sides are resolved. At the point of being engaged you should be past the point of thinking she’s using you and she should be past the point of believing you’re a man that won’t take care of a woman financially.  You both still have questions about each other. How far along are you with the K-1?
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: GQBlues on September 25, 2019, 08:50:57 AM
Scarface-

So many dudes have come and gone with the same story as yours - here, and in other forums. First things many guys do that went through the trail is they immediately abandon their wits and instincts. They start doing things outside of their personal belief and comfort zone. Secondly, within their deepest physiological fabric, and within the spectrum of their heterosexual gender traits, women are women. Differences in culture are superficial and shouldn't be a qualifier in what makes a woman.

So I'll cut through the chase and tell you what I easily saw in your situation...

.... She was always dressed to the nines wherever we went and was a wonderfully pleasant and interesting woman. She was very traditional and respected men and womens roles...

I'm certain that segment had been discussed and expressed during the period you two talked. I'm inclined to believe you may have expressed and expanded on this subject as much as most do when they search for women in the MOB. Typically, I'm inclined to believe based solely on the obvious, the default subject will always be about a *pseudo-white-knight-in-shining-armor-rescuing-a-damsel-in-distress*. For most of these men, what else is there to discuss from their vantage point?

...When we were discussing it last night she said to me "but you told me I was your girl don't you want to take care of me?"

Trips, gifts, wine-dine, support, etc...are all showered during these times. Make no mistake about that. As though these men have no other redeeming value about them other than those that require pulling out their wallets.

Knowingly, willingly, begrudgingly. Makes no different.

Reap...sow...lather, rinse, repeat. Guys goes off to fish for a specific fish, specifically equipped with specific tools and bait hoping to land that specific fish. But when they catch exactly what they came to fish for, guess what happens?

Like it or not, from most of the women of the MOB's POV - WMs are simply Disneyland suitors because that's exactly what men portray themselves to be from the get go. They come in droves with a promise of giving them an eTicket ride to easy street. You were the perfect prototype of that description. I'm surprised you're shocked at the inevitability of your 'catch'. This is not about 'fault'. It just 'is'.

Read this board's T/R section, or any other board's T/R section, and you'll generally read the same story repeating itself. Trips, gifts, wine-dine, support, etc..lather, rinse, repeat..

If not now, you'll see it later.

I'm someone from the internet you do not know. Hence, I don't want to give you any advise how to live your life. You'll be a bigger buffoon if you do that. The only thing I can say to you now is, exercise introspection and be honest to yourself. Trust your own instinct and judgment.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 25, 2019, 08:53:52 AM
I am not over 60. I did say this to what would she have done if I was not there. She did not answer it.

What do you mean discuss ahead of time her Bill's? Are you saying I should sit down with her in an early date and go through her finances? I am not following.

I know how much she takes home in salary since she put it on the K1 Visa application.

I never altered my post. But maybe I was not clear.

Not having fun here. Lol
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Faux Pas on September 25, 2019, 08:58:35 AM
Maybe I did not make it very clear in my original post but I did have sex with her a lot of very enthusiastic wild sex. On our second meeting. I was testing her to see if she would be compliant with me sexually and she always was.

And when we talk now we talk about what we are going to do sexually on our next meeting all the time. When I say we should meet in two months she says let's meet in a month. If I say let's plan a trip for week she says two weeks.

I am not saying this to brag but to give you details that would indicate to me that she is into me. Or am I wrong?

There's a lot of chafe on what the posters here are telling you. Most all of it is good information but it doesn't mean they are right, about this woman or you. You'll need to determine that. Nobody here knows her.

Those amounts for pneumonia and rent does seem excessive but, may not be, I don't know. Women in general do believe their man should help and take care of them. If you are hers and she yours, she expects that from you as well. I do think the shoes was a FU on your part. Likely a test on her part. You are going through the K-1 process, it's past time you both open up about your financial standing. If "she" is yours, she'll watch your money as closely or better than you do
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: fathertime on September 25, 2019, 09:02:44 AM
Hello

I have a question for the senior men and women on here. I met this sweet educated Ukrainian woman online about 8 months ago. We hit it off right away and have been building a strong relationship so far moving toward getting her K1 and her 16 YO daughter's K2 Visa to come to the US. Even though she prefers to stay in Europe she said she would live wherever I live.

So after we met online we texted and chatted and skyped about 5 times per week consistently and I planned a trip to her home city. She was happy to see me come and she set aside a long week to spend with me. I got an apartment not far from her flat and headed out there. We met at the airport and started our courtship. She was always dressed to the nines wherever we went and was a wonderfully pleasant and interesting woman. She was very traditional and respected men and womens roles.

We talked about many things. But one of the things I had made sure to talk about and observe is how she talked about family. She was always talking about her parents and grandparents and I could see that she was very close to them. We grew closer and were having a good trip. But because of the scammer issue and my own personal trust issues, I was on the lookout. Probably too much.

As we progressed I attempted to get intimate with her but she rebuffed my advances which is to be expected. However, we were progressing physically but at a slow pace. But in my opinion, this is an important hurdle that we both need to get over. Our physical touch and eye contact and body language was excellent and continued to progress. In fact, we were getting closer and closer spending each full day and night together.

On about the fourth day we were getting into some heavy making out but not closing the deal. I only tell you this to help gauge our level of intimacy.  Then she told me that she had to do some work out of the blue and left me for the most part of one day to my own devices. I went around and saw some sites and did a little work in my apartment. I was not happy with her but took it in stride. When we met up she was just as affectionate and sweet as before. I talked to her about leaving me hanging all day when I had traveled so far and she apologized which I thought was a significant advancement. She wanted to go into some stores in the town center and I figured she is about to start asking me to buy stuff for her.

I would wait outside while she went into the stores. Eventually, we went to get some coffee and a local pub. She does not really drink. I don't drink much either. She then asked me if I would buy her some shoes tomorrow because she needs them. She is a professional educated woman but does not make a lot of money.

At this point, I told her no and then overreacted. The shoes were not the issue probably would have cost $40. We had a long discussion and in all honesty, I was bringing more drama than her. I was surprised at the request and did not expect this and was probably too sensitive to this issue. I then put her in a cab home and I went off to my apartment. We did not have mean words to each other but she could tell I got angry and felt this was overreacting. And yes I did not react correctly.

She said that since we were together this was normal and I should buy things that make her happy or that she needs. She also told me this was a test. I went back to my apartment and changed my flight for the next morning to leave. Cutting my trip short. We texted that night a little and then the next morning I went back to the US.

We continued to text after I got home and I felt bad about overreacting and the shoes being a relatively cheap item. I am not a cheap person. I have spent untold thousands on my ex-wife when we were married. She was not mad and never got mad or manipulative. She never tried to convince me or change my mind and I noticed this.

Then she got Pneumonia and had to get treatment. I encouraged her to go to a good doctor and to do what she needed to get better and I would send her money. I ended up sending her about $800 for the doctor and the medicine. I thought this may be a lot for the doctor but I was trying to deal with my trust issues and give her the benefit of the doubt.

Our relationship progressed and we planned another trip to meet in a city in Europe. She easily agreed and we met and had a wonderful time it was intimate and I must say the sex was amazing. We also had long conversations and quality time together. She is the kind of person that is very pleasant and never has a hard word to say about anyone. We had a few minor scrapes but nothing major.

This entire time together and via skype and text our conversations were like two lovers very close very complimentary very sweet and with adoration. I tell you this only to gauge the quality of the relationship. She asked me to buy her a few small items cosmetics and shoes of course but the sum total was around $100. Not big and this time I did not hesitate.

We got back home and we continued our loving relationship over skype and text. She had been having some problems in her practice with her management harassing her and she had told me about her friend that had her own practice. So I recommended she join in with her friends practice to get away from her bad management. She agreed talked to her friend and they made an arrangement. Then she asked me for money to split the first month's office rent with her friend in the new practice. I asked how much and she said $950. It seemed like a lot but I agreed knowing my issues in the past I wanted to get past that.

She started her new practice and seemed to be doing well. Two months down the road we talked about meeting in another European city. And she of course agreed. At no time has she indicated any disinterest in me. She has always been sweet and caring and engaged. I have never discovered any indication of dishonesty or duplicity or any malice at all.

When we do talk of meeting she always wants to meet for more time than I allot and sooner than I recommend. So I can safely say she is into me. I feel it. I start the K1 visa process and she is doing her part on the forms no hesitation. We start to plan our next trip and she tells me her partner in her practice is 9 months pregnant and may need to leave the practice and asks me for another $950 for rent until she can decide what to do or find another partner for the practice to split it with her.

At this point, it triggers my trust issues and I ask a few questions. She answers them but she is watching my face on skype and she is very perceptive. She knows my communication and my face very well. The next day we talk and she asks for the money and I refuse. This surprises her and she asks why. I had talked with my friend about it who is very supportive of our relationship and he did not think it was a good idea. I was having problems with it also.

I explained it seemed like a lot of money for rent in Ukraine $1900 for one office. She explained that they were consistent at this building and did not charge extra for heat in the winter. I asked her what she would do if I was not there? She did not answer this. But I could tell she was sad. Not angry per se or any drama. And I stayed even-tempered and cool but held my ground. I have no way to verify her situation or know the truth. I have to trust her. But she has never knowingly lied to me yet.

But I could tell there was a slight change in her attitude which is understandable. I am of course inside my mind very worried about this. My own trust and abandonment issues come up now. Did I do the wrong thing? Should I proceed as normal? I texted her goodnight last night and she responded in kind. I texted her this morning and I could tell she was slightly off her normal sweetness on text. But it is very slight.

I am very worried about this issue and how to proceed in the future. I am laying it on the line here guys. You are hearing my real story and I am asking for your advice. Should I just wait and see? Should I try to engage her in a new conversation about it? I am also concerned that she may have legitimate financial trouble. Should I just go ahead and send her the money?

When we were discussing it last night she said to me "but you told me I was your girl don't you want to take care of me?" I did not know what to say to this. Have I fucked up. Please tell it to me straight. I am not looking for abusive comments just real honest help.

I think the jury is still out.  It does seem the expenses she ran up are high and possibly questionable. 

To me, the most important thing is how you are doing when together and it sounds so far like it has been delightful. That said, it may not be indicative  of how things would be going forward in the grind of real life.    You are both seasoned adults.  Is there a large language barrier?  Although personally, I made up my mind to marry after the second trip (Colombia), In your case maybe a little more time spent together would be appropriate, maybe visiting her business and getting a perspective of what it is all about is wise use of time.    I don't know your personal story or hers, so there are a lot of unknowns for us commentators. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Gator on September 25, 2019, 09:04:58 AM
I suggest you do what BC did, take care of her financially. 

She needs to prepare for her new life with you.   So pay for a couple of months of office, but have an understanding that she needs to stop working soon.  Her work must not be very valuable if it does not generate enough income to pay for rent.  If she is marrying you, she does not need to find a new partner, only to disband when she emigrates.     

Most important, this arrangement requires her to trust you that you will provide for her.  Let's see how much she trusts you.  You need to meet again and again.    Perhaps one time she comes to your home on a visitor visa.   

She and her daughter can use the free time to study English, prepare immigration documents, shop for a wedding dress, study your hometown, have a plan for her daughter's schooling, etc.   

BTW, RW have a love affair with shoes and cosmetics.  $40 is nothing.  A professional scammer would have wanted shoes made in Italy.

Regarding sex, it is very important to her as well as to you.  Is you sexy time mutual or all about serving you?  If the latter, be forewarned.  Discuss it with her, explaining that you are not an egotist but want her fulfilled. 
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Gator on September 25, 2019, 09:17:04 AM

Not having fun here. Lol

Hang in here.  Almost all men answering your questions have been married for years to a FSUW. 

All women are different as are the RWD men.   So YMMV.    Keep in mind an important fact, a FSUW old enough to have a 16-yo has been "trained" by FSUM.   The FSUM have good points:  they tend to be very romantic souls, are very close with their woman's soul, are attentive to her every need, speak "sweet nothings," etc.  She will crave for the same.  We will ignore the FSUM bad points. 
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on September 25, 2019, 09:17:20 AM
"Are you saying I should sit down with her in an early date and go through her finances?"

you MEAN TO TELL ME you haven't already done this?
because if YOU DO have this conversation with her...
then you completely AVOID these kinds of issues from "popping up"
AND YOU are making the spending decisions after YOUR evaluation, and not her....
see how clever this "proactive" way is!!

and IF SHE tries to "go around" this with unexpected surprises, then it's "scammer time" and you can't touch this!!!
that's right
you can't touch this

so, if ya gotta Russian problem...
in yur neighborhood...
WHO ya gonna call?
RUSS Busters!


Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 25, 2019, 10:31:55 AM
So I have to ask for more details. It is the second or third date and how does this conversation go?

So tell me, Russian Woman, I really like you but I need to know more about you.

How much do you make?

What are your expenses?

Do you have any serious financial issues you are dealing with?

Do you have to support anyone or have any health issues?

On and on.

Like this?

I am a bit sceptical.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on September 25, 2019, 10:45:00 AM
I guess I also need to ask for more details...

so how many times, days have you two spent together?
did you ever talk about finances after you proposed?

if you just focus on the $1900 mo rent due to a lost partner....
how does she propose to make up the difference, other than you just wiring her money?
how much profit does a $1900 mo rent place make each month
why can't the profit pay the rent
can the business operate without a partner
or does it need a new partner
where is this business
picture, address
did you see it?

what if it's just cheaper for you to pay her $500 mo to buy food, pay utilities until her visa is approved and she shuts down the business
what's the profit and loss on that

important thing
is to go over expectations up front and not get AMBUSHED later
cuz that's how scammers operate!!!!
YOU always have to make the choice, based on a simple question, is it WORTH it to you
and in your case, you seem to know nothing about it
which makes you just perfect for an ambush...

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 25, 2019, 10:45:29 AM
Why? She should be preparing for a life with you. You could even give her a monthly allowance so she can quit her job. A man should be able to do this for a fianceé he loves and trust.

Since you claim the trust issues are yours she should not have agreed to marry you until trust issues from both sides are resolved. At the point of being engaged you should be past the point of thinking she’s using you and she should be past the point of believing you’re a man that won’t take care of a woman financially.  You both still have questions about each other. How far along are you with the K-1?

I agree she could quit her job and let me send her the few hundred bucks a month until the Visa comes in and it would probably be cheaper overall. Maybe I should shift to that.

The trust issues are my own and have been discovered through my own introspection recently in my life. I thought I was past the point of thinking that she is using me. But then she asked for $950.00, and it seems a little fishy. I come on here and people with a lot more experience than me say run away. I am being honest here about my issues. But we all have issues don't we? If we didnt get married because of our issues no one would be married.

K1 is still being worked. But she has never indicated anything other than her desire to marry me and moving to the US even though she said she would prefer to live in Europe since it is closer to her family.

There should be no reason for her to think I would not take care of her financially. But this is a double-edged sword, isn't it? I can take care of her financially or I am cheap. She is a scammer or a golddigger or she is just doing what women in the FSU expect from their man. And that is complete support. Don't send her the money on one hand and put her on an allowance on the other. It does not seem so easy to me.

There seems to be no real consistent answer here. But maybe that is just the way it is.

I also want to say that there is never been any indication at any point through 8 months of her ever lying. Not once and believe me I have looked. I just don't see this as an easy answer.

One of the other commenters has said that they have seen my story on here many times. I have read this forum a lot and I have never seen this type of story on here. Maybe I missed something.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 25, 2019, 10:48:20 AM
I guess I also need to ask for more details...

so how many times, days have you two spent together?
did you ever talk about finances after you proposed?

A total of about 15 days so far. Talk on skype and text almost every day. Talked about finances a few times but not so much in detail. And more when she asked for money. By the way on the Pneumonia thing told her I would pay for a good doctor she did not ask. The only time she has asked is the two times for the office rent. And a few small items on our 2nd trip together. And of course the shoes.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 25, 2019, 10:54:05 AM
Scarface-

So many dudes have come and gone with the same story as yours - here, and in other forums. First things many guys do that went through the trail is they immediately abandon their wits and instincts. They start doing things outside of their personal belief and comfort zone. Secondly, within their deepest physiological fabric, and within the spectrum of their heterosexual gender traits, women are women. Differences in culture are superficial and shouldn't be a qualifier in what makes a woman.

So I'll cut through the chase and tell you what I easily saw in your situation...

I'm certain that segment had been discussed and expressed during the period you two talked. I'm inclined to believe you may have expressed and expanded on this subject as much as most do when they search for women in the MOB. Typically, I'm inclined to believe based solely on the obvious, the default subject will always be about a *pseudo-white-knight-in-shining-armor-rescuing-a-damsel-in-distress*. For most of these men, what else is there to discuss from their vantage point?

Trips, gifts, wine-dine, support, etc...are all showered during these times. Make no mistake about that. As though these men have no other redeeming value about them other than those that require pulling out their wallets.

Knowingly, willingly, begrudgingly. Makes no different.

Reap...sow...lather, rinse, repeat. Guys goes off to fish for a specific fish, specifically equipped with specific tools and bait hoping to land that specific fish. But when they catch exactly what they came to fish for, guess what happens?

Like it or not, from most of the women of the MOB's POV - WMs are simply Disneyland suitors because that's exactly what men portray themselves to be from the get go. They come in droves with a promise of giving them an eTicket ride to easy street. You were the perfect prototype of that description. I'm surprised you're shocked at the inevitability of your 'catch'. This is not about 'fault'. It just 'is'.

Read this board's T/R section, or any other board's T/R section, and you'll generally read the same story repeating itself. Trips, gifts, wine-dine, support, etc..lather, rinse, repeat..

If not now, you'll see it later.

I'm someone from the internet you do not know. Hence, I don't want to give you any advise how to live your life. You'll be a bigger buffoon if you do that. The only thing I can say to you now is, exercise introspection and be honest to yourself. Trust your own instinct and judgment.

There are a lot os assumptions here. But I never wined and dined her never gave her a gift only flowers a couple of times. There is no MOB. I met her online not through any agency or service. As far as I can tell she has never been on any other site. If so she used a completely different set of images. According to her, she has never been on any other site.

As far as having no redeeming value other than money. I guess that is possible. But I can tell you what she told me. She told me in no uncertain terms on many many occasions what she liked about my character. And it had to do with things like wisdom, work ethic, desire to succeed, self-reliance. This was told to me over and over. Maybe she was lying? I guess it's possible. But if she was what a good con.

Also, I never expected nor portrayed myself as a white knight or any type of Disneyland suitor. I never tried to indicate or show wealth or mention my money. I never offered anything that would be akin to easy street other than a relationship with me. I think that shock is an appropriate reaction to this situation. And I would appreciate more constructive comments rather than criticism.

This is unpleasant enough without you piling on safely in your armchair.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on September 25, 2019, 11:02:44 AM
if you get ambushed, then you didn't talk enough
you should never get ambushed like this...

so darlink, let's talk about 'kapusta
I would open with $500 monthly support for her to quit work...
and THAT'S IT!!!
tell her, this is her budget...
until she gets her visa

then buy her a couple of gifts you'd think she'd like
all women have "cravings" my wife's and daughters is diamond jewelry...

even another negative note I gotta relay to you
a Russian teenager in America ain't gonna be like any of your American ones
and will introduce a TON of problems into your relationship....
if you get into a conflict with your stepdaughter, guess whose side your wife will be on?
ALSO...
when this all blows up in your face a year from now, guess who gets the child support bill?

you can easily pull a late 30s, early 40s childless woman in Ukraine
I'm about the same age as you,
I was "hit on" by a gazillion 40ish year olds last month in Moscva and even some who were younger
a couple were REALLY HOT!!!
I think you can do better than you think, and don't have to accept a woman with a child
honestly, I wouldn't because it doubles the risk
remember that calculus I mentioned earlier
ya gotta think pretty hard what failure will mean to you here...
and your odds don't look good....
that's why I'd fold this hand....
and use what ya learned next time ya play

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Gator on September 25, 2019, 11:41:09 AM

if you get into a conflict with your stepdaughter, guess whose side your wife will be on?

True, but conflicts with my stepdaughter were trivial. She was already over 21 when marrying her mama,  and a serious adult determined to educate herself and work..  In contrast, my wife takes my side with the younger son.  Both are a joy, and welcomed additions to my sense of family. 

The relationship with the child is important.  16-yo is a difficult age because they are hormone-imbalanced.     How is it going?   I suggest you make time to talk with her.   She will have to make new friends, new everything and maybe has some reservations,  which you could address.   

Quote
when this all blows up in your face a year from now, guess who gets the child support bill?

For a short marriage, the obligation in my state for step children is nil unless you have adopted them.  Also, in less than 2 years, the daughter will be an adult (18-yo) in the eyes of the many states.  As such, you will have no obligation to support her. 

Quote
you can easily pull a late 30s, early 40s childless woman in Ukraine
I'm about the same age as you,

A RW common expression  - there is something wrong with a man who has never been married.

From my perspective there is something wrong with a 30s- 40s FSUW who has never been married. I dated a few.   Fun, but conflicting.  Even more concerning if she  says she does not date local FSUM, especially saying they are "bad."
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on September 25, 2019, 11:56:56 AM
"16-yo is a difficult age because they are hormone-imbalanced. "

understatement of the year!!!!
and I have one of em' that age right now!!! OMG!!!

but she's also a good daughter, and does most of the cooking
and makes me exercise every day by beating me at tennis
I can barely remember the last time I won a game...
maybe I should play doubles now with people my own age...

the good news about 16 yr olds, is once they get past the hump
they tend to straighten out around the end of high school, start of college, like my oldest daughter did...

but in "m'man's situation here, this 16 yr old is a HUGE risk
that I'm gonna guess he really doesn't know much about either...

I remember what it was like for my daughters coming to an American school from a Russian one...
I spent a lot of "one on one" with them particularly reading English
because they were switching from being instructed in Russian....
you would have to do the same...
16 yr olds have awful personalities, oh the joy of anticipation the first time you have a fight or argument with your 16 yr old...

man, you sure you can handle this?
cuz if you think it's hard managin an older Russian woman
wait'll see ya what it's like with a teenager
and you will have TWO to teach how to drive at the same time...





Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 25, 2019, 11:57:12 AM
Thanks for the advice guys. There was a lot of good information in here overall. Particularly Krimster spelling some things out for me. Let me ask you how would you approach a pursuit nowadays Krimster?

From your perspective. Would you do an online approach and line up several to go visit. Or would go there and spend an extended period of time there like a few weeks or even months and just meet as many as you can on the ground? I have been to both Russia and Ukraine and a few other countries in the East and I never experienced women hitting on me. Let alone a gazillion. And I dress well I am in good shape, and have been told I am good looking.

What would your approach be?

Also, my buddy here at home said I should not contact her and just wait and see what she does next. Does she contact me? How does she contact me? Is she cold? Is she vindictive? Does she want to discuss the money issue more? Etc. This would be option 1.

Option 2 would be to run and never look back and cut my losses. Learn from my "ambush" (lesson learned I will not get ambushed again) and keep a closer eye out for next time. Potentially swearing off FSU women completely.

Option 3 is to go back to her and act as if there is not a problem. And set up an allowance until the K1 work is done. Then bring them over with a prenup and my assets protected by a trust.

I am leaning toward option 1 or 2 at this point.

What a fucking fiasco. SMH
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on September 25, 2019, 12:19:00 PM
ultimately, go with your gut as has been advised...
but also THINK as well...
you deserve some fault for this...
from my REMOTE position I can't see what you can see
but I think your're thinking more now than you were

"back in the day" I did a sabbatical in Kyiv and was WILDLY successful meeting women in markets, etc, so I know this works!!!!
but NOW I'd go with VK VKontact which is Russian social media....

my wife and I own a small Russian cosmetics company and we have fanpages for our company on VK
I have thousands of female contacts in Russia and Ukraine because of this business...
so based on this experience, what I'd do if'n I were you
would be this:

take some interest/hobby of yours and hire someone to make a web site about it...
put lots of pictures of yourself
translate it into Russian
give it some kind of Russian angle
and hire someone to promote it on VK

a year later, you should have at least 1,000 contacts from wimmin
interested in whatever your hobby is...
with their pics (some nude even!) and personal info
contact the ones that are prettiest....and go visit em
don't visit ones with children
cuz honestly you can easily score a 35-40 yr old childless woman
and ML and I both knew a guy named Art who was your age and married a 28 yr old natural redhead!

but if you're asking about your current conundrum
I'd pick door #2 but NOT swear off Russian women...

when you fall off the horse
you get back up again
and next time you ride that muther!!!
c'mon you kiddin me....
you saw the super models over there, you can TOTALLY snag one
lotta guys on this board did, I did...
so can you...
just, get back up, and keep learning, keep trying,
you got closer on your first shot than a lotta guys did
I fired so many shots I had to reload
so don't sweat it, this is the way it works sometimes...
and if you learned this time, I doubt you'll repeat this
and next time, might be the one...
sometime the journey is the destination
never forget that aspect as well
this is one hell of an adventure!!!!
why do you want it to end?








Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: jone on September 25, 2019, 12:37:34 PM
I don't think you're in a fiasco.   You are just in the period of the relationship where trust is formed, where you two become a couple.   

Two thoughts immediately come to mind:

1.  The couple of months office rent is trivial.   You can afford to discover what your 'investment' buys you.   It is absolutely minimal when compared to the amount of future money you will spend on your relationship.

2.  The nature of these requests and your ability to resolve them will be the framework for your future relationship with your woman.

Hopefully you can get to a point of stability whereby these types of fears on your part are already resolved.  I am concerned at the lack of time you have spent together.   If the chemistry is there, you'll have the ability to grow into a couple.  If not, little differences will continue to separate you until you break apart.   But only time spent together will determine your success.   Remember that if she is coming to live with you, the risk on your part is monetary.   The risk on her part is EVERYTHING.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: tfcrew on September 25, 2019, 12:54:36 PM
Maybe I did not make it very clear in my original post but I did have sex with her a lot of very enthusiastic wild sex.   
And so will the next guy.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: jone on September 25, 2019, 01:03:00 PM
Sex is an important part of the relationship.  It serves to bring you together as a couple.   But the day to day living is the real issue.   And this couple has not experienced any of that.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Gator on September 25, 2019, 01:32:42 PM

Also, my buddy here at home said I should not contact her and just wait and see what she does next. Does she contact me? How does she contact me? Is she cold? Is she vindictive? Does she want to discuss the money issue more? Etc. This would be option 1.

Reverse it.  How would you feel if she did this to you?    If you marry, will you use the silent treatment again and again to resolve conflicts.   I hope not. 
 

Quote
Option 2 would be to run and never look back and cut my losses. Learn from my "ambush" (lesson learned I will not get ambushed again) and keep a closer eye out for next time. Potentially swearing off FSU women completely.

These words reveal you do not have the necessary commitment to make marriage work with a FSUW, at least not with this particular woman. 

How about other FSUW?  First, decide what your goal should be.  Dating FSUW is fun.  Marrying a FSUW requires a huge amount of work during their adjustment  (they are strangers in a strange land), and it requires commitment.  Requiring even more commitment is building and maintaining a loving, enduring relationship. 


Quote
Option 3 is to go back to her and act as if there is not a problem. And set up an allowance until the K1 work is done. Then bring them over with a prenup and my assets protected by a trust.

This is not an option.  Clearly, you are not feeling what you should be feeling in your heart to continue with the present woman.   To be honorable, call her up and say goodbye.  She will survive. 

If still interested in FSUW, others can help you with various ways to meet them. Let us know what you decide. 
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Trenchcoat on September 25, 2019, 01:44:30 PM
So I have to ask for more details. It is the second or third date and how does this conversation go?

So tell me, Russian Woman, I really like you but I need to know more about you.

How much do you make?

What are your expenses?

Do you have any serious financial issues you are dealing with?

Do you have to support anyone or have any health issues?

On and on.

Like this?

I am a bit sceptical.

Hi Scarface :welcome:

Yes you screwed up, but don't worry I have done similar to you, the expenses weren't as much as you, perhaps £1-1.5k overall cost for her including shopping trips for mid range price fashion brands & holiday trip.

In my opinion the screw up happens once you agree to paying for something she asks for, normally clothes items or similar. Best thing is to 'hold the line', say to her that buying her stuff like clothes and anything outside taxi, flowers and chocolate are only for when you are living together.

Then change the subject and most likely the location also. Keep away from all shops like the plague, find attractions to visit or anything else to do to take talk of her wanting stuff. Otherwise she'll keep on and coming up with one thing after another for you to buy her. If she  walks at this then you'll know she was no good.

One of the problems I found with giving into such women to be 'nice', 'generous', 'not stingy', decent guy or whatever is this - you never really know for certain if she is really into you. Had you not paid for all of that stuff you would have your answer pretty up front. You did well not paying for the shoes but you should have stuck to your guns.

I would say getting angry and arguments are not the way to go. Look at Putin, as cool and calm as a cucumber. An argument can seriously make a relationship go south or you later feeling that you overreacted as you did then wanting to be easier going.

The main thing I think is that once you cross the Rubicon there is no going back. One demand leads into another and another, it becomes like a game to the woman. You've proven to her that you can be taken once so she'll see what else she can get. Once she sees you as weak then it's a done thing, it can't be regained. Hence things are unlikely to be fixable.

The money you gave her is worth 'a lot' in Ukraine. If she is in a low paid job she would be earning probably around $100-150 or so a month. The money sums are scammer like but she might just be a materialistic girl and unable to help herself, hence her single status. I think you would also need to know about such a girl, if she really is single, her day to day life, etc with first hand experience of it. What I've learned is if she's not willing to let you into her life (within reason as her workplace etc may be sensitive areas so fair enough there) then she should not be asking for you to buy her stuff.

I think Krimster has a real good take on the situation.

A monthly sum of a stipend can solve the can you buy me this or that issue but I wouldn't do it until near a move in together situation. Otherwise you could look weak and easily taken again.

At this stage I would just refuse all other demands for money or stuff no matter how pressing she makes them out to be. Just tell her to sort the situation as she usually would. Even still I think it might be difficult if not impossible for you to recover this relationship. It might have we'll have been that she was into you but I think you'll only find out by not giving into what she wants.

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Trenchcoat on September 25, 2019, 02:00:19 PM
Just to add to the above, I think your girl is manipulative, the girl I had was and was similar to yours. Time over again on this I would call her out on this. You could have done this to the pneumonia cost. It would be better than saying she is lying/don't trust her and would show her your clever enough to be onto her. Then she likely would know not to try it on.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 25, 2019, 02:21:48 PM
And so will the next guy.

What is the purpose of this?
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: BC on September 25, 2019, 02:36:10 PM
What is the purpose of this?

trolling...  Ignore it.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on September 25, 2019, 03:26:59 PM
so what city did you go to in UA, tell us of your experience there...

you'll laugh, but my foolproof method for meeting women is my sketchbook
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 25, 2019, 03:47:09 PM
Sketchbook?

You sit in a cafe and do sketches to arouse the unsuspecting FSU woman's curiosity until she falls for your charm and wit?
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: JayH on September 25, 2019, 05:46:49 PM
Scarface   ---- What city is she from?
What  age are you? Her?
What sort of resources do you have? Do you think $10000 is a lot of money?

Did you screw up -- yes -- being paranoid did not and is not helping you.

NOTE -- most of the people who posted "advice" above were doing this a long time ago -- and -- and -- out of touch with today's life situation.

Even so -- some offer real common sense  thoughts -- eg  Steve,  BC, Gator> Faux Pas, Jone .BillyB  a plus also !!  Even Krimster manages more sense than usual in part of his posts .

More-- the amounts of money she asked for are NOT excessive in themselves eg Medical can easily make the figure mentioned - shoes were not excessive etc .
I do not agree with delving into her finances prematurely -- the info will come in due course.Having a broad idea is sufficient.My qualifier here would be if she has well above average lifestyle already-then I would want to know how.

Now my big point -- if you really want her in your life -- you need to accept responsibility for her and her life-- and that means totally .If you cannot afford to "invest" money in your collective futures then you should not have gone this far.

Generalising --taking care of her is a total -- not a piece here and there .

PS   -- a btw  imo--   15 days is far too short to be together  before marriage -- it may be ok -but here you are   knowing no where near enough
PS 2 afterthought -- you were happy enough to "use" her -- but -- make no commitment in return -- and all after holding out the carrot of a long term future with her.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: msmob on September 25, 2019, 06:06:57 PM
Hi Scarface

None of us know you or her or have been flies on the wall. It is v.hard to advise either way.

The shoes episode is done and dusted.

You have 'paid up on demand' and seem to have suggested that you are an item,by suggesting you will support their visas.

You say you did not wine and dine her, so may I ask the total number of days you have spent together? How many times have you met the daughter? How many times have you visted.?

I am using a small screen and may have missed such info, so please excuse a Q you may have covered.

You WILL be paying out much more if she comes to the US ..while she finds her feet.

There is a 'test' element on her part, too..! Can this man be relied on?

All I can go on is your side, your perceptions and her side might be 'different'.  I am not judging or a using you of misleading us.  FSU W have an expectation that a guy asking them to give up their lives and ability to earn is serious.

There is no hard and fast rule about sex and how quickly it should transpire. It is a powerful tool in a lady's arsenal and it is not a bad thing to wait until you both know you really want to confirm your potential. There are gifts that any one of you might have from previous partners to consider and you can make it part of the fun to know you are free of 'impediments'

I was alarmed at how you say she left you alone and no explanation..but we do not know the circumstances.

Only you can judge if you are being used.

I may be wrong, but I am wondering if you know this woman well enough?










Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 25, 2019, 06:18:15 PM
Scarface   ---- What city is she from?
What  age are you? Her?
What sort of resources do you have? Do you think $10000 is a lot of money?

Did you screw up -- yes -- being paranoid did not and is not helping you.

NOTE -- most of the people who posted "advice" above were doing this a long time ago -- and -- and -- out of touch with today's life situation.

Even so -- some offer real common sense  thoughts -- eg  Steve,  BC, Gator> Faux Pas, Jone .BillyB  a plus also !!  Even Krimster manages more sense than usual in part of his posts .

More-- the amounts of money she asked for are NOT excessive in themselves eg Medical can easily make the figure mentioned - shoes were not excessive etc .
I do not agree with delving into her finances prematurely -- the info will come in due course.Having a broad idea is sufficient.My qualifier here would be if she has well above average lifestyle already-then I would want to know how.

Now my big point -- if you really want her in your life -- you need to accept responsibility for her and her life-- and that means totally .If you cannot afford to "invest" money in your collective futures then you should not have gone this far.

Generalising --taking care of her is a total -- not a piece here and there .

PS   -- a btw  imo--   15 days is far too short to be together  before marriage -- it may be ok -but here you are   knowing no where near enough
PS 2 afterthought -- you were happy enough to "use" her -- but -- make no commitment in return -- and all after holding out the carrot of a long term future with her.

Thanks for the information. How has your journey been. Do you date a FSU woman and then take over her finances? If so how long before you do this? If you could give me more specifics, please.

I have enough resources and yes I do think $10,000 dollars is a lot of money. But that depends on what for. For a lifetime together no its not. For a short period of time maybe.

Be specific on how you think I screwed up? Where was I paranoid? Do you think she should be asking for money and gifts? Should that not set off my radar?

She lives a modest lifestyle with her daughter.

I have been taking care of other people all of my life. And I never intended to do anything else. I have already invested quite a bit and the money is not the issue. It is her asking for money so early into the relationship. What would you have done? Please tell me. And how would you know that would be the right thing to do?

I agree 15 days is not enough. We had other trips planned but work got in the way and the VISA process in the US is long about 9 months nowadays so I started the process.

I am not sure what your PS2 means. I never used her or anyone else for that matter. If anything she used me. I have voiced my commitment to her in no uncertain terms repeatedly and with my actions with VISA process. And I never held out any carrot to her either.

Please explain in detail how you would do it differently.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on September 25, 2019, 06:20:18 PM
wow! civil posts, sage words...
just what the hell is going on here?

yes, my man needs to go and get some more experience under his belt...
climb back up on the horse...
I see no shame in what happened to him for a first timer!
I've actually had worse things happen to me with women over there...
but each time I fell down, I got back up again, but smarter than I was before...


BTW, my OLD approach still works!!!
last month I set up my easel in a big park in Moscow
and was sketching all the birds

I attracted a gazillion women's attention this way...
it still works!!

I once did an art show about roadkill in Ukraine!

totally trivial thing, to get a Ukrainian woman into my painting
and show her an already matted and framed picture
then she OOHs AND AAHs over it
so you give it to her as a gift
and then ask if you can paint her portrait with clothes on in your apartment....

the rest is EASY!!!  simple as hell!!!



Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: msmob on September 25, 2019, 06:21:20 PM
Scarface,

JsyH seems to indicate you have agreed to sponsor her visa after 15 days.

You were premature and now you  have 'doubts' ...?

It was too fast and now she expects you to behave like a sponsor.

It is hard to advise, other than to spend more time together.

I think the advice all members have been giving you have merit and I would suggest those in longstanding relations have just as much valid input as those who have been dating FSU W for years.)

I am afraid that Trench is the LAST person to listen to as he has near zip clue about women and relationships  thinks they are all 'scammers'

Do not make the lady sit and wait...The only way to know each other is to spend time together.. You have made a rod for your own back as you have made a committment and she expects you to start delivering )

She will expect 'progress' and think you are using her.

Not easy..

 

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 25, 2019, 06:26:15 PM
Hi Scarface

None of us know you or her or have been flies on the wall. It is v.hard to advise either way.

The shoes episode is done and dusted.

You have 'paid up on demand' and seem to have suggested that you are an item,by suggesting you will support their visas.

You say you did not wine and dine her, so may I ask the total number of days you have spent together? How many times have you met the daughter? How many times have you visted.?

I am using a small screen and may have missed such info, so please excuse a Q you may have covered.

You WILL be paying out much more if she comes to the US ..while she finds her feet.

There is a 'test' element on her part, too..! Can this man be relied on?

All I can go on is your side, your perceptions and her side might be 'different'.  I am not judging or a using you of misleading us.  FSU W have an expectation that a guy asking them to give up their lives and ability to earn is serious.

There is no hard and fast rule about sex and how quickly it should transpire. It is a powerful tool in a lady's arsenal and it is not a bad thing to wait until you both know you really want to confirm your potential. There are gifts that any one of you might have from previous partners to consider and you can make it part of the fun to know you are free of 'impediments'

I was alarmed at how you say she left you alone and no explanation..but we do not know the circumstances.

Only you can judge if you are being used.

I may be wrong, but I am wondering if you know this woman well enough?

Thanks for the comments. When she left me alone for the day I covered that with her. And she apologized.

I think you are right that I do not know her well enough.

I have not met her daughter face to face. But planned that and her other family on another trip. I have spent 15 days with her total. And planned more visits between now and the visa interview.

Honestly, I think she is a good woman and did not "use me" I think she truly cares for me and is into me. But I also think she tries to get what she can maybe as a test. Maybe she really needs the money that bad. I think she believes the man is supposed to support her fully like you said.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on September 25, 2019, 06:33:23 PM
bad sign, you haven't met the daughter or other family - this is NOT normal!!!!
WHY NOT!!!!  WHAT WAS THE REASON!!!!
IT'S ACTUALLY A RED FLAG, UNLESS THERE'S A DAMNED GOOD EXPLANATION!!!!

you know kids...
you need to get some kind of feel for this girl and how well she'll adapt, and how much you're going to have to support her well as her mother...
and you haven't even met her????
WTF???

OK, think for a minute now....
what other weird little details like this are there about this relationship?
things "out of the ordinary" besides that and the money!!!
cuz, I have a feeling there's more...
and if there is...
RUN FOREST RUN!!!!!

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: msmob on September 25, 2019, 06:39:48 PM
Thanks for the prompt response.

My advice is based on you wanting to try

You have made mistakes and committments to early..

But..

Despite you doubts you like her. So, my advice is to keep meeting and be straight with her.

I like you and have made a committment, but let's get to know each other better and see if our initial good thoughts towards each other were correct..


That means investing time and money.

She has a job and probably cannot stop working, you would need to find out if she has holiday time available.

If she has meet her in an European city like Prague and spend exclusive time together.

Better to find out comparability, now.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Trenchcoat on September 25, 2019, 06:41:08 PM
Scarface,

JsyH seems to indicate you have agreed to sponsor her visa after 15 days.

You were premature and now you  have 'doubts' ...?

It was too fast and now she expects you to behave like a sponsor.

It is hard to advise, other than to spend more time together.

I think the advice all members have been giving you have merit and I would suggest those in longstanding relations have just as much valid input as those who have been dating FSU W for years.)

I am afraid that Trench is the LAST person to listen to as he has near zip clue about women and relationships  thinks they are all 'scammers'

Do not make the lady sit and wait...The only way to know each other is to spend time together.. You have made a rod for your own back as you have made a committment and she expects you to start delivering )

She will expect 'progress' and think you are using her.

Not easy..

Mobe, I have actually been in a very similar position to Scarface so there is no need to diss what I say for the sake of our disagreements.

However I do think you are right in what you say. If anything it is important to cool off a relationship in the early stages. Forget the visa/marriage/spouse stuff until the guy gets to really know the girl. SF seems to have been eager to get her in the sack and while there is nothing wrong with that again it may have prompted a more serious setting early on for the relationship than would have been helpful.

So I agree on all of that. Had she come up with medical bill etc then it could easily be seen that it was not his responsibility for such a casual getting to know you relationship. I personally still think that and the business stuff is BS and the guy should have held firm rather than risk torpedoing his own relationship.

All the stuff about him being left alone for a while shows needyness on his part and not a good trait. A FSW would want to see that he can survive on his own happily in a different environment as otherwise how could she rely upon him to take care of her.

Overall SF should have set her right from the get go and let her know it was just a casual relationship and only could be in such an early stage after having just met. It's what I should have done also.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Trenchcoat on September 25, 2019, 06:47:42 PM
bad sign, you haven't met the daughter or other family - this is NOT normal!!!!
WHY NOT!!!!  WHAT WAS THE REASON!!!!
IT'S ACTUALLY A RED FLAG, UNLESS THERE'S A DAMNED GOOD EXPLANATION!!!!

you know kids...
you need to get some kind of feel for this girl and how well she'll adapt, and how much you're going to have to support her well as her mother...
and you haven't even met her????
WTF???

OK, think for a minute now....
what other weird little details like this are there about this relationship?
things "out of the ordinary" besides that and the money!!!
cuz, I have a feeling there's more...
and if there is...
RUN FOREST RUN!!!!!

I think you're right Krimster, it's seems weird that SF has already begun the visa process without having met her daughter yet. He should sort out a time quick to fly out and see her family, if she comes up with BS then it's another  Red Flag.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: JayH on September 25, 2019, 06:50:45 PM
Thanks for the information. How has your journey been. Do you date a FSU woman and then take over her finances? If so how long before you do this? If you could give me more specifics, please.

I have enough resources and yes I do think $10,000 dollars is a lot of money. But that depends on what for. For a lifetime together no its not. For a short period of time maybe.

Be specific on how you think I screwed up? Where was I paranoid? Do you think she should be asking for money and gifts? Should that not set off my radar?

She lives a modest lifestyle with her daughter.

I have been taking care of other people all of my life. And I never intended to do anything else. I have already invested quite a bit and the money is not the issue. It is her asking for money so early into the relationship. What would you have done? Please tell me. And how would you know that would be the right thing to do?

I agree 15 days is not enough. We had other trips planned but work got in the way and the VISA process in the US is long about 9 months nowadays so I started the process.

I am not sure what your PS2 means. I never used her or anyone else for that matter. If anything she used me. I have voiced my commitment to her in no uncertain terms repeatedly and with my actions with VISA process. And I never held out any carrot to her either.

Please explain in detail how you would do it differently.

I  have been involved  in long and short term relationships over quite a few years !  I am currently ( 4 years) in a relationship  and spend  a LOT of time in Ukraine --  and as such I am very current with real costs and expenses -- and  attitudes .

The 10k= a small cost to spend to succeed. If you believe she is the "one" -- it is peanuts compared to cost of making a long term mistake.I would not waste it - but there is a cost to the exercise .

Paranoid --is seeing "scam" where there is none -- sure be careful-- but surely that is part of the whole exercise.Getting hung up on a $40 pair of shoes--just plain dumb. It was obvious she was doing a test -- not to set up future scams but to see if you were a tight arse.
Asking for money and gifts- set off radar ?  Short answer -- no.  You put the pressure on to have sex  -- what was she to think? That you were a sex tourist? hit and run etc !!  You need to understand there is a procession of big noting guys promising the world and delivery less than a page on a map ! There is 2 sides to this story --recognise that.That covers the PS2 part also I think?

She lives a modest lifestyle with her daughter.      OK -- that says she will not have a lot of "spare" money-- so every bit counts. Refer my comments-- "taking care of her" 

How would I do it differently?   mmmmmm suggestions only and each case is different. If you have a few bucks behind you -I would put that in context   eg being US comfortable does not make you an arab type zillionaire that can throw money around extravagantly.Explain every dollar gets earned !

I am not in the ditch her camp -- my view is proceed with caution -reasonable caution not paranoia !




Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Trenchcoat on September 25, 2019, 07:04:01 PM
I do think that SF standing outside the shops was a wrong move. It shouts to the girl what SF thought of her before she asked in not a good way. I would have gone in and then found out upfront if she wanted something, set her straight about where we're at in the relationship and what's needed to move the relationship on in terms of seeing more of her everyday life. Better to cross the bridge upfront then just give out a bad Impression/attitude I think.

SF still hasn't told us where she is from? A vague idea of the area would be handy at least?
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: rwd123 on September 25, 2019, 07:29:42 PM
She isn't a good girl. No good girl would ask a man that she is casually
dating for any of those things. She would let you buy dinner and pay for
a taxi, flowers sure, but shoes? No way. 

I agree with Krimster, run Forest Run!
Agree 100%.

She may or may not be a scammer, but she's not a good girl IMO. Money is not the issue but her character.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: tfcrew on September 25, 2019, 07:29:53 PM
What is the purpose of this?
What was the purpose of divulging your sexcapades? How old are you... 16?
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: rwd123 on September 25, 2019, 07:39:31 PM
Paranoid --is seeing "scam" where there is none -- sure be careful-- but surely that is part of the whole exercise.Getting hung up on a $40 pair of shoes--just plain dumb. It was obvious she was doing a test -- not to set up future scams but to see if you were a tight arse.
If I happened to meet a woman who was into shit testing me over $40 she's not going to see me again, period. And this is after the OP flew all the way to Eastern Europe and after their lengthy online conversations.

I'm not a tight ass by any stretch, but putting up with women who play silly mind games and shit tests, forget it! Move on and find a good girl. The OP has to make a judgement on her character, from what I've read I'd move on.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: msmob on September 25, 2019, 07:40:35 PM
Trench,

You were NOT in a similar position.

You were advised not to go on a holiday with the lass and you did.

You do not listen nor learn. You have proved you cannot read women, period.

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: msmob on September 25, 2019, 07:43:02 PM
I do think that SF standing outside the shops was a wrong move. It shouts to the girl what SF thought of her before she asked in not a good way. I would have gone in and then found out upfront if she wanted something, set her straight about where we're at in the relationship and what's needed to move the relationship on in terms of seeing more of her everyday life. Better to cross the bridge upfront then just give out a bad Impression/attitude I think.

SF still hasn't told us where she is from? A vague idea of the area would be handy at least?

Trench, where the lady is from  is NOT relevant.

Why would you think it is?

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Trenchcoat on September 25, 2019, 07:49:22 PM
Trench, where the lady is from  is NOT relevant.

Why would you think it is?

Not necessarily, remember you've stated to me before something was not necessary and it turned out is was, lol.

No I don't think it's the biggest deal here but it can add some extra context to it all.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: tfcrew on September 25, 2019, 07:52:23 PM
trolling... 
Nope. You know better. Read reply #33 if you haven't. After so many years I know and so do you... that if a woman just hops into into the sack right away with Mr Out of Town... after he leaves chances are-- here comes the next guy and so on. Be realistic OK.
 BTW what's $40 for a pair of shoes?
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: msmob on September 25, 2019, 07:55:41 PM
Not necessarily, remember you've stated to me before something was not necessary and it turned out is was, lol.

No idea if what you are referring to.....


No I don't think it's the biggest deal here but it can add some extra context to it all.

Exactly, my point  you are adding 'noise'..

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Trenchcoat on September 25, 2019, 08:05:15 PM
If I happened to meet a woman who was into shit testing me over $40 she's not going to see me again, period. And this is after the OP flew all the way to Eastern Europe and after their lengthy online conversations.

I'm not a tight ass by any stretch, but putting up with women who play silly mind games and shit tests, forget it! Move on and find a good girl. The OP has to make a judgement on her character, from what I've read I'd move on.

I would generally agree with this in terms of not being dragged through all this silly mind games and testing BS. Who knows maybe she was testing to see if he was weak & gullible.

The fact that she has a 16 year old daughter and no man well it would be interesting to know why, what happened to the father? What have her previous history been like?

I do think that JayH also has a point this time that the OP didn't act in a way that helped the situation and could have pushed it along the path to destruction. I think it would still be worthwhile for SF to dig a bit deeper and see if he can meet this woman's family and find out more about her day to day life by being there with her a good couple of weeks or as much time as he can.

I think there might still be more for SF to learn here. I'm not sure that the relationship is savalvagable. I also think that as a Forum we may learn more by examining the points JayH has brought up. See if these girls can be better understood. Is she just reacting to SF's actions in the traditional understanding that FSW have that a guy supports the woman if he wants to move it straight up to top tier serious relations? or just having him on?

I kind of think that there is more understanding to be had over these type of women and why they act in the perculiar way they do. I think there could well be some mechanics going on here that are triggered when a guy acts a certain way. I think OP should try and get out there as soon as he can to meet her family and see her real life, that he organises that now to get these answers that he needs.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Trenchcoat on September 25, 2019, 08:06:36 PM
No idea if what you are referring to.....

Exactly, my point  you are adding 'noise'..

Remember Rod and him wanting to get his girl in the UK? Never did hear back from him did we.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: JayH on September 25, 2019, 08:13:35 PM
. She wanted to go into some stores in the town center and I figured she is about to start asking me to buy stuff for her.

I would wait outside while she went into the stores. Eventually, we went to get some coffee and a local pub. She does not really drink. I don't drink much either. She then asked me if I would buy her some shoes tomorrow because she needs them. She is a professional educated woman but does not make a lot of money.

At this point, I told her no and then overreacted. The shoes were not the issue probably would have cost $40. We had a long discussion and in all honesty, I was bringing more drama than her. I was surprised at the request and did not expect this and was probably too sensitive to this issue. I then put her in a cab home and I went off to my apartment. We did not have mean words to each other but she could tell I got angry and felt this was overreacting. And yes I did not react correctly.

She said that since we were together this was normal and I should buy things that make her happy or that she needs. She also told me this was a test. I went back to my apartment and changed my flight for the next morning to leave. Cutting my trip short. We texted that night a little and then the next morning I went back to the US.



Agree 100%.

She may or may not be a scammer, but she's not a good girl IMO. Money is not the issue but her character.

If I happened to meet a woman who was into shit testing me over $40 she's not going to see me again, period. And this is after the OP flew all the way to Eastern Europe and after their lengthy online conversations.

I'm not a tight ass by any stretch, but putting up with women who play silly mind games and shit tests, forget it! Move on and find a good girl. The OP has to make a judgement on her character, from what I've read I'd move on.

I have pointed out that it is a dumb conclusion to exclude a girl because she expected a gift .
It is very outmoded idea that accepting money makes her "not a good girl"  !!  It is a ridiculous conclusion.
 Also of not in the   OP  -- no mention of  buying anything at all ( hope I read that right?)  Buying flowers locally can easily run to $40 or more than twice that if sending from a distance !

Not entering shop--or standing outside is churlish ,weak in my view.Being involved and interested is part of forming a relationship.
Getting wound up over $40 is just plain dumb. :wallbash:


Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: msmob on September 25, 2019, 08:15:49 PM
...and your point, your deduction?

Nice attempt at diverting my point re the relevance of your questions / contributions.

I am wary of your need to 'protest' the validity of your 'advice' will spoil the thread for the OP...If you respond, I may respond in a new thread....

I realise you are 'bored' on your Nightshift.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Frrrrrrt on September 25, 2019, 08:18:17 PM
Hey everyone :) I'm newbie here, found this website absolutely randomly and began to read posts by different topics. Well, as for me, whole this story seem bit weird. First of all I would be warned about one thing: how businesswoman can have so much free time daily to speak with someone via Skype and how person can leave job so easy just to meet with him. Even if it was random secretary or cleaner, she wouldn't be able to just leave everything and go somewhere. Here normally you say to boss when want to get vacations 6 months before. I am businesswoman too and normally spend 6 days at work and often have to be in the office till midnight to deal with all things. Plus, normally person after coming home is tired and can't wait just to relax. Spending hours talking with foreigner isn't thing to do it. I would understand if it was student or unemployed woman with bunch of free time, but businesswoman living in Kiev and having full time job no way. Maybe I understood smth in wrong way, but this is already big red flag and absolute nonsense.
Second, why you didn't speak with her about finances, how does she live back in Ukraine, how much she makes per month, what are her expectations for future, etc. ? What if she expects to get luxury lifestyle and you can give her less than she has in Ukraine? Plus, as for me, this sh*t about buying shoes and sending money is at least arrogant. Even if I didn't earn a cent, I wouldn't dare just to ask to buy shoes. What the heck is this? If she has troubles with paying for rent, it means her business is rather in massive troubles or don't exist at all, maybe she can't manage money as someone wrote. Such rent price can exist only if office is in some business centre in top area.
Third, you met her only few times. Why such a big rush into marriage? To be clear, it's hard to understand why americans want to go through K1 process with woman they barely know. Let's say, she really does have a business and it's enough successful not to quit it, why then she can't get travel visa or why you can't visit her once a 6 months or smth like this. What's the problem? 
My advice is:
a) speak with her asap and make everything clear. No need to make drama or get mad on her, just talk. If she will say smth like: "If you don't believe my words, we're done", let she go. She lied. Block and forget. Let she find another victim. Sex means nothing. Even ukrainian women can have it for fun or manipulation, don't forget it.
b) don't rush into K1. There is nothing wrong into getting know each other and take your time.
c) don't send money so easy. Most eastern european women get into dating with foreigners rather to earn smth or move to more developed country in the easiest way possible. Stop thinking they are desperate and can't find local man. I don't know anyone who couldn't do it, even if its single mother with 4 kids. Americans are the most easy to get money out. Dutch or german man could send ukrainian woman maybe 50-100 euros, bring some cheap presents, rent affordable Airbnb for lets say 30 euros and done while americans always go to center, most expensive, but not best restaurants, easily throw money into nothing and rush, rush, rush. If any american would talk about K1 after 2 visits and month of conversation in Skype, I've think he is desperate as hell and wants to buy me. Would you normally marry someone you know for 15 days? I'm pretty sure no. Why then you do it with foreigner?
Really people, keep your eyes opened. I don't care about your money, you can throw it on any wh*re you want, but don't be naive and believe into everything they are telling.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: msmob on September 25, 2019, 08:20:24 PM
JayH

The OP has now said,  several times, he knows he was mistaken re the shoes.. We have moved on.. Pls catch us up.

Can we leave the 'dumb' comments out as this is not a Trench like scenario, yet ..

This is a new member.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: JayH on September 25, 2019, 08:26:25 PM

I kind of think that there is more understanding to be had over these type of women and why they act in the perculiar way they do. I think there could well be some mechanics going on here that are triggered when a guy acts a certain way. s.

Peculiar?    Shopping is in a  woman's  DNA!! ;D

The OP mentions in his OP   "She was always dressed to the nines"   ---  ie she obviously liked to dress well and present herself nicely. .
From my experience -- that is near enough universal -regardless of the available resources. It has always been to my amazement how that is managed.
One thing I have learnt of importance here -- girls have probably struggled to buy things to look good -- and when the opportunity arises to have a little more comes up- they will jump at it.
Again -refer to earlier comments about "taking care" of your lady.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: msmob on September 25, 2019, 08:29:17 PM
Hello Frrrrrrt !

A new lady member from Russia!

Please introduce yourself in the introductions and ice-breaker section!

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?board=41.0



You can start a new thread
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: JayH on September 25, 2019, 08:29:53 PM
JayH

The OP has now said,  several times, he knows he was mistaken re the shoes.. We have moved on.. Pls catch us up.

Can we leave the 'dumb' comments out as this is not a Trench like scenario, yet ..

This is a new member.

Moby -- the post was addressing later posts and in particular-the idea that she is not a "good girl"-- because of  the shoe issue --or asking for something.
While I am at it-- she did ask the day before about it ! And-- it was at a time he was trying to get in her pants ! ;D
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: rwd123 on September 25, 2019, 08:31:25 PM
I have pointed out that it is a dumb conclusion to exclude a girl because she expected a gift .
It is very outmoded idea that accepting money makes her "not a good girl"  !!  It is a ridiculous conclusion.
 Also of not in the   OP  -- no mention of  buying anything at all ( hope I read that right?)  Buying flowers locally can easily run to $40 or more than twice that if sending from a distance !

Not entering shop--or standing outside is churlish ,weak in my view.Being involved and interested is part of forming a relationship.
Getting wound up over $40 is just plain dumb. :wallbash:
Jay you're welcome to have a different opinion, but I think you're missing the point. It's not about $4 or $40 or $4,000. It's not about money - it's about character.

Good guys will bring a gift (offer support). Bad girls expect gifts or make requests (leeches). Big difference! Many guys will put up with this type of character, Bill and I don't.


Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Trenchcoat on September 25, 2019, 08:32:02 PM
One poster that may be seen to have navigated the whole 'buy me xxx' is JamesUK. He met a girl in Dnipro who wanted an iPhone from him or similar. I'm pretty sure he didn't get it for her or anything similar and they still ended up in an ongoing relationship. I think he may have held off on sex also which if so was unusual for him. I don't know how if they still are or exactly what went down but I think it shows that handling such girls the correct way may reap success long term.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: JayH on September 25, 2019, 08:33:11 PM
Hey everyone :)

 :welcome: :welcome: ;D
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: msmob on September 25, 2019, 08:34:53 PM
Sighs,


Addressing JayH,


Not getting drawn into a JayH v Moby..

I made my suggestion .. again the use of 'Dumb' to a newbie who is asking our advice / opinion is hardly wise or welcoming)
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: JayH on September 25, 2019, 08:40:56 PM
Sighs,


Addressing JayH,


Not getting drawn into a JayH v Moby..

I made my suggestion .. again the use of 'Dumb' to a newbie who is asking our advice / opinion is hardly wise or welcoming)

Needless to say  you get it wrong again  -- it is the "dumb" advice I was targeting !  The reference to the op was that it was a dumb thing to do .Not that he was "dumb" as such ! Both quite different to your repeated attempts to twist words and the intent.
So-- do us all a favour and stick to the topic--or shutup ! :deadhorse:
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: 2tallbill on September 25, 2019, 09:05:27 PM
Maybe I did not make it very clear in my original post but I did have sex with her a lot of very enthusiastic wild sex. On our second meeting. I was testing her to see if she would be compliant with me sexually and she always was.

My reading of your original post was that you didn't have sex with her
and that's why I said she wasn't a good girl. A girl who didn't have sex
with you isn't serious about you and no good girl who wasn't serious
would ask you for anything including shoes.

I was making my advice/comments without this key piece of information.

I don't know you or her.

So I have to ask for more details. It is the second or third date and how does this conversation go?

On and on.
Like this?
I am a bit sceptical.

You have 10,000 detailed conversations before you ask any woman to
marry you. Don't assume, ask. If she is a serious woman she will welcome
these conversations and begin initiating many of them herself.

A total of about 15 days so far. Talk on skype and text almost every day. Talked about finances a few times but not so much in detail.

Herein lies the problem. You haven't put in the time getting to know all
about a girl you are considering marriage. Would you ever date a girl
from the USA 15 times and then propose marriage?

You don't know enough to marry a girl after 15 days and not having
a thousand detailed conversations

I don't know enough to advise you about this woman and you haven't
had the long conversations about life together that you should have.

I visited Angel Eyes 4 times and she visited me 2 times before we got
married. We talked about disciplining children. What happens when her
daughter gets into a disagreement with me. Who does this who does that.
You should have conversations on everything from child rearing, to goals,
to what goes in the refrigerator to what goes in the cupboards.

You should draw her a very clear picture about yourself and your goals,
dreams and aspirations. You should know hers as well. You should know
how many blankets she has on the bed at what temperature and what
the last book she read.

You need to trust the woman you are engaged to marry and trust her
completely. I totally trust my Angel Eyes (except to get ready on time
or to keep her cellphone charged).

There are so many questions both of you need to explore. 15 days with
boots on the ground is not enough and you aren't having enough
of the important conversations about the nuts and bolts of getting
married, raising a family and living together forever.

Take the money out of this for now and start working diligently to find
out her opinions on everything from grounding a sassy teenager to
what the ground rules on arguing about something.

What happens if the daughter stays out all night? What happens if
she hates you (she will occasionally).

You need to spend the time, effort and diligence to get to know any
woman you intend to marry.

You should either dump this woman or start putting in the effort that
every man needs to do in order to have a chance at international
marriage. It's a TON of work. If she's the right girl then these
conversations should fly on and on and she will become more
and more confident in you and the chances of success.

In my opinion, you connected with a girl but skipped the getting to
know her process. You might know how she likes to have her shoulders
caressed but not her opinions on how to live as a family together.

This is tough work, but enjoyable and it takes time. You might find out
that this is the perfect girl or the wrong girl.

My advice is take the time to do it right, or move on.

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: JayH on September 25, 2019, 09:16:19 PM
Agree ;D.    Whole post is good!
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: 2tallbill on September 25, 2019, 09:17:56 PM
If any american would talk about K1 after 2 visits and month of conversation in Skype, I've think he is desperate as hell and wants to buy me. Would you normally marry someone you know for 15 days? I'm pretty sure no. Why then you do it with foreigner?

Welcome to the forum.

I don't know the guy or the gal, so I wouldn't call either of them
desperate. He could be a hopeless romantic or something in that
vein and she could be the same or similar.

He's here now and will get a lot of advice. Some of it will be very
good and some of it will be more dubious. He should sift through
the advice and use the advice he finds most applicable to his goals,
personality and situation and most importantly not take any of it
personally.

Most of the guys here are trying to help but none of us know
anything about his situation except what he wrote here.

Udachi!

Bill 
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Trenchcoat on September 25, 2019, 09:26:09 PM
I think it was the case that SF didn't have sex at first, she rebuffed him but still want stuff. It's only on the holiday with him did she do it, big time apparently.

I think if a girl is asking for stuff and not wanting to put out it really is a pee take and she wouldn't get anything off me since I would regard her interest in me to be zero. That said even if she did put out I wouldn't want to tie it to getting her stuff or even bringing that into the equation, I strayed too near that before and learnt it's not a good place to be.

At an early stage in a relationship even with sex time over again I would stress how early it was in the relationship to be serious/getting her stuff. She would either have to deal with that or walk until I knew her daily life better first hand.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on September 25, 2019, 09:26:26 PM
from reading your new posts, it seems like the feeling of getting "ambushed" by being presented with unexpected bills is more the problem than the actual money...

to reiterate, to avoid ambushes, you have to have a financial planning meeting with her...
and stick to whatever you agree to...
this way YOU are the one evaluating and deciding
instead of just giving her money whenever she asks for it...
but you need to be MUCH more into figuring this woman out...
because some of the things you showed us about her aren't NORMAL!!!!
and I would be very cautious about making a legal commitment to someone who IS NOT NORMAL AS WELL AS HER CHILD WHO YOU'VE NOT EVEN MET!!...
that is a SERIOUS risk for you to take...
if it wasn't for that risk, I'd say "sure go for it", you wouldn't have that much to lose...
but ACTUALLY you do have a lot to lose...
IMHO, your risk is higher because of the fact of not meeting the family is actually a VERY big deal and red flag
also, at the very least, the money issues , are a real problem for the two of you, since it happened multiple times....

I'd say, it's a fundamental compatibility issue which led to a breakdown in your relationship
and that's just NOT A GOOD SIGN when it happens so early in a relationship, because that USUALLY happens later....

like I said, I can't really see what you see because I am so far away
but even at this distance, I see there is something wrong with this woman, and how she is treating you....
unless she's a scammer...
because this is EXACTLY how a scammer would treat you!



 
 
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: BillyB on September 25, 2019, 09:29:00 PM
So I have to ask for more details. It is the second or third date and how does this conversation go?

So tell me, Russian Woman, I really like you but I need to know more about you.

How much do you make?

What are your expenses?

Do you have any serious financial issues you are dealing with?

Do you have to support anyone or have any health issues?

On and on.

Like this?

I am a bit sceptical.

Before the first date you can get most of the questions answered. Asking about her job and her life and lifestyle before a first visit is normal. You should also get a feel for her health. If I'm thinking about visiting a woman, In one message I would tell her my health is good and that I have no diseases or disabilities. Most women are glad I brought it up and proceed to tell me they are clean too. If a woman fails to respond with her health in the next message, I'll ask her straight up if she has any health problems.

What would your approach be?

Also, my buddy here at home said I should not contact her and just wait and see what she does next. Does she contact me? How does she contact me? Is she cold? Is she vindictive? Does she want to discuss the money issue more? Etc. This would be option 1.

Option 2 would be to run and never look back and cut my losses. Learn from my "ambush" (lesson learned I will not get ambushed again) and keep a closer eye out for next time. Potentially swearing off FSU women completely.

Option 3 is to go back to her and act as if there is not a problem. And set up an allowance until the K1 work is done. Then bring them over with a prenup and my assets protected by a trust.


Option 1. Silent treatment seems childish and you're not willing to problem solve. What if it backfires and nobody talks for an extended period of time?

Option 2. Run? You mentioned she's never lied to you. It's hard to find a person like that. She's also hardly on any dating/marriage sites so she's not engaging in lots of activity with lots of men on the internet. You feel you were ambushed? Everyday she discusses her life with you. One day she's short of money for her business. Being short on money happens to everybody from time to time. She's your fiancée. At the time she needs money to continue to work a business, you should've told her "Quit your job honey, I'll take care of you".

Option 3 Talk to her as if there isn't a problem. That is your best option. I'm not sure you got a problem. A prenup will be worth as much as toilet paper if you don't do it right. She may be under duress at the time you ask her to sign it. If it's not fair and doesn't come close to following your state guidelines, it can be thrown out in court. You will have to get her an attorney and translator during her signing otherwise she can claim she didn't understand and didn't have representation.

I am leaning toward option 1 or 2 at this point.


If you're really feeling you're getting used and can't trust her, then you should break up with her. Whether you're right or wrong about your feelings is irrelevant. It's just the way you feel and it's not healthy for either of you to be in a relationship with at least of person lacking trust.

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on September 25, 2019, 09:55:27 PM
so Frrrrrrt, are you really a ferret or a "fancy bear"?

RU
GRU?

ya pravilno ugadal?

nyet? ne pravda?

then tell us about yourself,
and what is the strangest question you can think of asking us...

here is the question I would ask you...

if you were stranded on a dessert island with two men...
and each man was equally handsome and nearly the same in almost every way...
EXCEPT...
one man was Russian and the other American....
which one would you choose and WHY?

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Boethius on September 25, 2019, 09:57:26 PM
She is a professional educated woman but does not make a lot of money.

So how was she paying her half of the $1900 rent before she met you?

Quote
Then she got Pneumonia and had to get treatment. I encouraged her to go to a good doctor and to do what she needed to get better and I would send her money. I ended up sending her about $800 for the doctor and the medicine. I thought this may be a lot for the doctor but I was trying to deal with my trust issues and give her the benefit of the doubt.

Everyone is entitled to free healthcare in Ukraine.  The issue with it is not its quality, but rather, that you may end up waiting a long time for treatment (say, 24 hours).  That can be sped up with a small donation, of say, $30.  One of my family members required surgery recently.  Top quality surgeon at a state hospital.  He was paid an extra $100.

If your lady has no insurance, she could go to a private clinic.  Costs vary depending on treatment, but if she received a battery of tests and the most expensive x-ray money can buy in Kyiv (not required for a diagnosis of pneumonia - listening to the lungs is usually enough), that would max out at US$155.  A prescription at a high end would be US$15, but if she is in Kyiv and was born there, the prescription cost is reduced significantly.

I don't think the lack of interest in shoe shopping is an issue.  My husband has never gone shoe, or clothes shopping with me, and we've managed to make it to well over three decades notwithstanding this heinous lack of interest in my shoe purchases. 

This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Trenchcoat on September 25, 2019, 10:02:43 PM
The girl I was with also said she never lied to me and also was hardly on any International dating sites much. Don't worry SF, she was fairly young so wouldn't have had a 16 yr old daughter/won't be the same woman, lol.

I think she was telling the truth in that no she wasn't a liar but she was manipulative. She seemed to think if she could get me to agree, is she asked (again & again, etc) and I accepted then I had agreed and doing so was my doing, hmmn...

I'm not sure with your woman though, those costs are high, she may be BSing or just exaggerating.

If she's not going full on by banging away on loads of dating sites or one big one a lot the she is living Kelly not a pro scammer. Pro scammers need to keep up with activity on those sites to keep the money rolling in. Only other thing is if she is writing to other guys for different girls then it wouldn't show up as much if she was an agency girl. You could set up a fake profile just to check out her profile to see when she was last on there. It doesn't mean she is an agency girl but it would show she is not committed to you.

A few months back we covered on here the topic of girls that didn't fall into the scammer/agency girl category but weren't good girls either. They were basically girls who were Materialist but not at it enough to make a living out of it. She may likely have objectives other than an agency girl as to what she wants from getting in with a WM.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on September 25, 2019, 10:14:49 PM
"My husband has never gone shoe, or clothes shopping with me,"

my wife takes me, just to carry all her purchases...
and I like picking out her clothes for her, as I have a good eye for what looks good on a tall woman like her
my cousin was a very famous fashion photographer, and he taught me a lot about fashion esthetics...
I'm strictly Louis Vuitton for myself in either blue or black...
this kinda look goes over very well in Russia if you combine it with a gold watch and ring and colorful shirt and tie...


Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Maxx2 on September 26, 2019, 12:27:54 AM
Hey everyone :) I'm newbie here,


Would you normally marry someone you know for 15 days? I'm pretty sure no. Why then you do it with foreigner?



18 years ago I knew an American all prepared to meet and marry a Russian woman he never met in person. This was before video Skype. Just internet emails, snail-mail and the phone. She spoke very little English and he spoke zero Russian. He meets her at the SVO 2 airport in Moscow. They go to the American embassy and the Minister of Foreign Affairs that day to do some paperwork. Then off to her home city of Saratov. Her parents bribed the folks down at ZAGS to wave the 30 day wait rule. They were married within a week of meeting. 2 weeks later she was given a green card by the US Embassy. Goes to America. She gives birth to their child (a son) 10 months later. Americans are often in a hurry!


Welcome to the forum!  :welcome:
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: BC on September 26, 2019, 04:05:34 AM
Maxx,

indeed in this venture often many corners are cut.  Sometimes it can work out, VERY often not and even when they do it can be a tough boat to row.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 26, 2019, 05:02:17 AM
What was the purpose of divulging your sexcapades? How old are you... 16?

I was questioned a lot about whether I had sex. And it is obvious this is a good gauge of a woman's interest which I am trying to determine using her actions.

But I also asked that people do not come on here and contribute nothing and just attack. I can see you have a lot of resentment for some reason. But don't put it on me. I am seriously trying to solve a problem and all you want to do is take potshots at someone who is asking for help. You have insulted her and me now. In two short posts.

What a miserable little life you must have.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 26, 2019, 05:10:07 AM
I have pointed out that it is a dumb conclusion to exclude a girl because she expected a gift .
It is very outmoded idea that accepting money makes her "not a good girl"  !!  It is a ridiculous conclusion.
 Also of not in the   OP  -- no mention of  buying anything at all ( hope I read that right?)  Buying flowers locally can easily run to $40 or more than twice that if sending from a distance !

Not entering shop--or standing outside is churlish ,weak in my view.Being involved and interested is part of forming a relationship.
Getting wound up over $40 is just plain dumb. :wallbash:

So once again criticism but no real advice. Guys I can take you throwing shit at me. But at least offer some alternative. There is no need to be nasty. I know mistakes were made. But specifically what would you have done?
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: jone on September 26, 2019, 05:24:51 AM
I gave you specific advise but you didn't even acknowledge it.  All this second guessing and mucking around is useless.   The only way to find out if this is the one is to spend time with her.   Not just a day or a week.   But serious time.   You haven't done that.   So everything else is simply mental masturbation.

Until you know what it is to live with a woman from Eastern Europe you will never know if you are compatible.  I can tell you wonderful stories and horrific ones.   All that they amount to is that every person is different.  Sex, no sex, give her money, don't give her money..... again, all you can do is live together for awhile and see if it works out. 

My suggestion is to fly to her city, spend time with her.   Spend time with her daughter.  Spend time with her family. All you really know is a two week stand with some correspondence.   And that does not a relationship make.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 26, 2019, 05:39:47 AM
I gave you specific advise but you didn't even acknowledge it.  All this second guessing and mucking around is useless.   The only way to find out if this is the one is to spend time with her.   Not just a day or a week.   But serious time.   You haven't done that.   So everything else is simply mental masturbation.

Until you know what it is to live with a woman from Eastern Europe you will never know if you are compatible.  I can tell you wonderful stories and horrific ones.   All that they amount to is that every person is different.  Sex, no sex, give her money, don't give her money..... again, all you can do is live together for awhile and see if it works out. 

My suggestion is to fly to her city, spend time with her.   Spend time with her daughter.  Spend time with her family. All you really know is a two week stand with some correspondence.   And that does not a relationship make.

Thanks for the advice sorry I did not acknowledge you earlier there have been many details and items to deal with while working and traveling. And I do agree with you I do need to spend more time with her. And that is normally how I have done relationships.

With this girl there did seem to be a bit of a rush. Probably because we both seem to have a strong feeling for each other. And that is my gut or intuition. Which may be wrong or right.

But you are right the real relationship is when you live together and that takes time. I lost sight of that. But I am learning believe me.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 26, 2019, 05:45:30 AM
My reading of your original post was that you didn't have sex with her
and that's why I said she wasn't a good girl. A girl who didn't have sex
with you isn't serious about you and no good girl who wasn't serious
would ask you for anything including shoes.

I was making my advice/comments without this key piece of information.

I don't know you or her.

You have 10,000 detailed conversations before you ask any woman to
marry you. Don't assume, ask. If she is a serious woman she will welcome
these conversations and begin initiating many of them herself.

Herein lies the problem. You haven't put in the time getting to know all
about a girl you are considering marriage. Would you ever date a girl
from the USA 15 times and then propose marriage?

You don't know enough to marry a girl after 15 days and not having
a thousand detailed conversations

I don't know enough to advise you about this woman and you haven't
had the long conversations about life together that you should have.

I visited Angel Eyes 4 times and she visited me 2 times before we got
married. We talked about disciplining children. What happens when her
daughter gets into a disagreement with me. Who does this who does that.
You should have conversations on everything from child rearing, to goals,
to what goes in the refrigerator to what goes in the cupboards.

You should draw her a very clear picture about yourself and your goals,
dreams and aspirations. You should know hers as well. You should know
how many blankets she has on the bed at what temperature and what
the last book she read.

You need to trust the woman you are engaged to marry and trust her
completely. I totally trust my Angel Eyes (except to get ready on time
or to keep her cellphone charged).

There are so many questions both of you need to explore. 15 days with
boots on the ground is not enough and you aren't having enough
of the important conversations about the nuts and bolts of getting
married, raising a family and living together forever.

Take the money out of this for now and start working diligently to find
out her opinions on everything from grounding a sassy teenager to
what the ground rules on arguing about something.

What happens if the daughter stays out all night? What happens if
she hates you (she will occasionally).

You need to spend the time, effort and diligence to get to know any
woman you intend to marry.

You should either dump this woman or start putting in the effort that
every man needs to do in order to have a chance at international
marriage. It's a TON of work. If she's the right girl then these
conversations should fly on and on and she will become more
and more confident in you and the chances of success.

In my opinion, you connected with a girl but skipped the getting to
know her process. You might know how she likes to have her shoulders
caressed but not her opinions on how to live as a family together.

This is tough work, but enjoyable and it takes time. You might find out
that this is the perfect girl or the wrong girl.

My advice is take the time to do it right, or move on.

Bill I want to thank you because there is a lot of concrete advice here. And it makes much sense to me. Perspective is always an important part of a relationship and the complexity of to people from two cultures. I appreciate it.

We have had many detailed conversations about goals and dreams and how we deal with life and specific issues. But we have not had enough of them. And this issue exposed this. Fifteen days on the ground is not enough. That is on me.

And I believe at this point the trust is not there. So as you say I need to get on with knowing her or move on.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 26, 2019, 05:54:15 AM
I  have been involved  in long and short term relationships over quite a few years !  I am currently ( 4 years) in a relationship  and spend  a LOT of time in Ukraine --  and as such I am very current with real costs and expenses -- and  attitudes .

The 10k= a small cost to spend to succeed. If you believe she is the "one" -- it is peanuts compared to cost of making a long term mistake.I would not waste it - but there is a cost to the exercise .

Paranoid --is seeing "scam" where there is none -- sure be careful-- but surely that is part of the whole exercise.Getting hung up on a $40 pair of shoes--just plain dumb. It was obvious she was doing a test -- not to set up future scams but to see if you were a tight arse.
Asking for money and gifts- set off radar ?  Short answer -- no.  You put the pressure on to have sex  -- what was she to think? That you were a sex tourist? hit and run etc !!  You need to understand there is a procession of big noting guys promising the world and delivery less than a page on a map ! There is 2 sides to this story --recognise that.That covers the PS2 part also I think?

She lives a modest lifestyle with her daughter.      OK -- that says she will not have a lot of "spare" money-- so every bit counts. Refer my comments-- "taking care of her" 

How would I do it differently?   mmmmmm suggestions only and each case is different. If you have a few bucks behind you -I would put that in context   eg being US comfortable does not make you an arab type zillionaire that can throw money around extravagantly.Explain every dollar gets earned !

I am not in the ditch her camp -- my view is proceed with caution -reasonable caution not paranoia !

Thanks for the specifics. Your perspective is welcomed. I probably was a bit paranoid after hearing so many stories about scams and being determined not to be scammed. But you have to also put into perspective that I have never been cheap with any woman that is with me and is mine. I told her this also. I do think the shoe thing was a test and she almost said as much.

And I overreacted. Live and learn. I like what you said about putting it in context about finances and spending every dollar gets earned. This is simply about setting boundaries and sticking to them. Which I did not. I did in many areas but not with money.

I also like what other folks said about putting in the time and meeting all of the family, not just the daughter. She evidently has a close extended family that she visits often. I should visit them also.  This was a big fail on my part and acknowledged.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 26, 2019, 05:55:22 AM
If I happened to meet a woman who was into shit testing me over $40 she's not going to see me again, period. And this is after the OP flew all the way to Eastern Europe and after their lengthy online conversations.

I'm not a tight ass by any stretch, but putting up with women who play silly mind games and shit tests, forget it! Move on and find a good girl. The OP has to make a judgement on her character, from what I've read I'd move on.

There is a point here.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 26, 2019, 06:03:42 AM
Hey everyone :) I'm newbie here, found this website absolutely randomly and began to read posts by different topics. Well, as for me, whole this story seem bit weird. First of all I would be warned about one thing: how businesswoman can have so much free time daily to speak with someone via Skype and how person can leave job so easy just to meet with him. Even if it was random secretary or cleaner, she wouldn't be able to just leave everything and go somewhere. Here normally you say to boss when want to get vacations 6 months before. I am businesswoman too and normally spend 6 days at work and often have to be in the office till midnight to deal with all things. Plus, normally person after coming home is tired and can't wait just to relax. Spending hours talking with foreigner isn't thing to do it. I would understand if it was student or unemployed woman with bunch of free time, but businesswoman living in Kiev and having full time job no way. Maybe I understood smth in wrong way, but this is already big red flag and absolute nonsense.
Second, why you didn't speak with her about finances, how does she live back in Ukraine, how much she makes per month, what are her expectations for future, etc. ? What if she expects to get luxury lifestyle and you can give her less than she has in Ukraine? Plus, as for me, this sh*t about buying shoes and sending money is at least arrogant. Even if I didn't earn a cent, I wouldn't dare just to ask to buy shoes. What the heck is this? If she has troubles with paying for rent, it means her business is rather in massive troubles or don't exist at all, maybe she can't manage money as someone wrote. Such rent price can exist only if office is in some business centre in top area.
Third, you met her only few times. Why such a big rush into marriage? To be clear, it's hard to understand why americans want to go through K1 process with woman they barely know. Let's say, she really does have a business and it's enough successful not to quit it, why then she can't get travel visa or why you can't visit her once a 6 months or smth like this. What's the problem? 
My advice is:
a) speak with her asap and make everything clear. No need to make drama or get mad on her, just talk. If she will say smth like: "If you don't believe my words, we're done", let she go. She lied. Block and forget. Let she find another victim. Sex means nothing. Even ukrainian women can have it for fun or manipulation, don't forget it.
b) don't rush into K1. There is nothing wrong into getting know each other and take your time.
c) don't send money so easy. Most eastern european women get into dating with foreigners rather to earn smth or move to more developed country in the easiest way possible. Stop thinking they are desperate and can't find local man. I don't know anyone who couldn't do it, even if its single mother with 4 kids. Americans are the most easy to get money out. Dutch or german man could send ukrainian woman maybe 50-100 euros, bring some cheap presents, rent affordable Airbnb for lets say 30 euros and done while americans always go to center, most expensive, but not best restaurants, easily throw money into nothing and rush, rush, rush. If any american would talk about K1 after 2 visits and month of conversation in Skype, I've think he is desperate as hell and wants to buy me. Would you normally marry someone you know for 15 days? I'm pretty sure no. Why then you do it with foreigner?
Really people, keep your eyes opened. I don't care about your money, you can throw it on any wh*re you want, but don't be naive and believe into everything they are telling.

Thank you and thanks for the concrete advice. This is helpful as well as your perspective. A couple of comments.

You are right about the short time 15 days on the ground and to VISA a mistake I acknowledge. I think the distance put pressure on me. Because she was ready for it but did not put pressure on me.

She was busy with work many times. We did not talk hours per day. May 1 to 2 hours at around 9 or 10 pm her time several days per week. And time, when she was available, was a problem for her sometimes.

I agree we need to spend time talking about finances as several people have noted. And talking about her expectations and mine. Expectations is where a lot of this goes wrong. She expects one thing and I expect another.



Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 26, 2019, 06:10:56 AM
from reading your new posts, it seems like the feeling of getting "ambushed" by being presented with unexpected bills is more the problem than the actual money...

to reiterate, to avoid ambushes, you have to have a financial planning meeting with her...
and stick to whatever you agree to...
this way YOU are the one evaluating and deciding
instead of just giving her money whenever she asks for it...
but you need to be MUCH more into figuring this woman out...
because some of the things you showed us about her aren't NORMAL!!!!
and I would be very cautious about making a legal commitment to someone who IS NOT NORMAL AS WELL AS HER CHILD WHO YOU'VE NOT EVEN MET!!...
that is a SERIOUS risk for you to take...
if it wasn't for that risk, I'd say "sure go for it", you wouldn't have that much to lose...
but ACTUALLY you do have a lot to lose...
IMHO, your risk is higher because of the fact of not meeting the family is actually a VERY big deal and red flag
also, at the very least, the money issues , are a real problem for the two of you, since it happened multiple times....

I'd say, it's a fundamental compatibility issue which led to a breakdown in your relationship
and that's just NOT A GOOD SIGN when it happens so early in a relationship, because that USUALLY happens later....

like I said, I can't really see what you see because I am so far away
but even at this distance, I see there is something wrong with this woman, and how she is treating you....
unless she's a scammer...
because this is EXACTLY how a scammer would treat you!

Excellent points and something to think about. This is not getting any easier. lol
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 26, 2019, 06:12:13 AM
Before the first date you can get most of the questions answered. Asking about her job and her life and lifestyle before a first visit is normal. You should also get a feel for her health. If I'm thinking about visiting a woman, In one message I would tell her my health is good and that I have no diseases or disabilities. Most women are glad I brought it up and proceed to tell me they are clean too. If a woman fails to respond with her health in the next message, I'll ask her straight up if she has any health problems.

Option 1. Silent treatment seems childish and you're not willing to problem solve. What if it backfires and nobody talks for an extended period of time?

Option 2. Run? You mentioned she's never lied to you. It's hard to find a person like that. She's also hardly on any dating/marriage sites so she's not engaging in lots of activity with lots of men on the internet. You feel you were ambushed? Everyday she discusses her life with you. One day she's short of money for her business. Being short on money happens to everybody from time to time. She's your fiancée. At the time she needs money to continue to work a business, you should've told her "Quit your job honey, I'll take care of you".

Option 3 Talk to her as if there isn't a problem. That is your best option. I'm not sure you got a problem. A prenup will be worth as much as toilet paper if you don't do it right. She may be under duress at the time you ask her to sign it. If it's not fair and doesn't come close to following your state guidelines, it can be thrown out in court. You will have to get her an attorney and translator during her signing otherwise she can claim she didn't understand and didn't have representation.

If you're really feeling you're getting used and can't trust her, then you should break up with her. Whether you're right or wrong about your feelings is irrelevant. It's just the way you feel and it's not healthy for either of you to be in a relationship with at least of person lacking trust.

Thank you for the concrete advice. I am taking notes.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 26, 2019, 06:17:29 AM
So how was she paying her half of the $1900 rent before she met you?

Everyone is entitled to free healthcare in Ukraine.  The issue with it is not its quality, but rather, that you may end up waiting a long time for treatment (say, 24 hours).  That can be sped up with a small donation, of say, $30.  One of my family members required surgery recently.  Top quality surgeon at a state hospital.  He was paid an extra $100.

If your lady has no insurance, she could go to a private clinic.  Costs vary depending on treatment, but if she received a battery of tests and the most expensive x-ray money can buy in Kyiv (not required for a diagnosis of pneumonia - listening to the lungs is usually enough), that would max out at US$155.  A prescription at a high end would be US$15, but if she is in Kyiv and was born there, the prescription cost is reduced significantly.

I don't think the lack of interest in shoe shopping is an issue.  My husband has never gone shoe, or clothes shopping with me, and we've managed to make it to well over three decades notwithstanding this heinous lack of interest in my shoe purchases. 

This post was composed without the aid of google.

Thank you for this. For me, this is a huge red flag. It was I who insisted that she go to see a "good" doctor out of my concern for her. And it is apparent that she took this gesture of mine and used it to extract $800 dollars from me. This is a problem that has nothing to do with the money and everything to do with trust and honesty. And also indicates that maybe I wasn't paranoid.

Also, thank you for your perspective on shoes. I was married for over 20 years my wife loved to shop I spent huge amounts of money on her during that time and rarely ever went shopping with her. But she was American.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on September 26, 2019, 06:41:58 AM
well I gotta say that for a "new guy" you're not doing too badly...
you did better on your first attempt than most...

and you're handling things VERY well here...
I would be optimistic about your future prospects in the FSU!
but remember, it's RUSSIA!
the map is not the territory!
so you have a LOT to learn!
the joy that is found in the victories, is worth suffering the pain of defeat...
so let the prospect of a future victory guide you.
a LOT of successful guys are on this board (and one or two who arent't but they have lessons to teach as well!)
if you keep persevering, you'll get there!
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 26, 2019, 06:53:43 AM
Thanks man. I am working on it.

Let me ask you another specific. You talked about a financial planning meeting early, and Frrrrrt, and a few others mentioned this.

How would you suggest going about this. Because I have never done this with a woman in early dating.

First or second or third date?

In person or via skype? Does this matter?

Before sex or after sex?

I have dated many women but this is new ground for me.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: BC on September 26, 2019, 07:49:41 AM
"Hey! wanna talk about our future together?  I think you need to know more about me..."  and go on to give some details about your work, living and financial situation.  Include stuff like your workday hours and free time you will be available to spend with her after her arrival.

In normal conversation, she will likely offer more information about her situation.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 26, 2019, 07:55:51 AM
Thanks that helps.

Another question I have that has been covered here. And that is about the idea of giving her an allowance until she moves to the US. Interesting idea and it would seem to clear up some of the questions that can arise.

How would you do this and when?

I assume you would offer her equivalent to what she is currently earning right?

Tell her this is her responsibility and to stick to a budget?

When would this type of arrangement be set up?

It sure sounds a lot like sponsorship.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on September 26, 2019, 08:05:07 AM
well, my advice is to proceed slowly....
I'm an engineer by profession, but switched to being a "biznessman" because I got tired of making other people rich instead of myself....
so ya gotta perform "due diligence"
WHO is this woman?
where does she work, what does she do?  whats' her income?
what's her family like?
what's her apartment like?
HOW does she live? cooks at home from scratch?


you have to acquire this "intel" and evaluate it...
and BE ON THE LOOKOUT FOR RED FLAGS!!!
and to reiterate, TWO BIG red flags here with Miss Dnepr!
NOT meeting her family is a HUGE red flag!!!
ya wanna know why?
SCAMMERS don't take their marks to meet mamma and poppa. THAT'S WHY!!
second red flag is getting "ambushed" with a large unexpected bill
completely a SCAMMER MOVE!!!

so I see TWO RED FLAGS just from what you wrote here
and I suspect, that if I were there in person, I'd see A LOT MORE RED FLAGS!!!

BTW, really is a big advantage to "having the women come to you"
by that I mean, if you had a Russian social media presence
and you were getting contacts this way, then you know the following with these wimmin:

1. they're interested enough in you and what your web site is about to write to you
2. they're NOT trying to scam you for money
3. they're chill with how you look, age, etc.

I call this the "running it up the flag pole and see who salutes it" approach!
if you had a GOOD web site in Russian on a FEMALE TOPIC and you hired a VK web site promoter to create a fan page for you
expect a MINIMUM of 1,000 contacts from this, and not out of the question to get 10,000 or more
all with bios and pics

this is what the smart guys do!!!
and you could have a Russian girl friend in every city in Russia if you wanted to!!!!
BUT...
ya gotta learn Russian tovarisch, horrosho?


ONLY after you start talking about a K1 should you talk about financial planning with her
and you ask her for a full financial disclosure and provide her yours...
then you say, "I'd like to make a budget with you for the pre-visa period"
and you work out whatever those details should be....
THEN if there's an ambush, even an inexperienced guy would know it's a scammer ambush!!!

for a stipend...
I'd tell her to quit work, and you'll support her
for Dnepr, $500 per month is more than adequate
and there are lots of ways to send money to Ukraine
I used to use Western Union

YOU must take the lead and steer here...
say "we're gonna talk about money now and work out a budget TOGETHER"
any attempt to operate outside this indicates a SCAM!

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: GQBlues on September 26, 2019, 08:53:26 AM
Welcome to the forum.

Yes, the newbie is most welcome. His premise regarding the WMs in the MOB is spot on that describe the very majority of them.

Quote
I don't know the guy or the gal, so I wouldn't call either of them
desperate. He could be a hopeless romantic or something in that
vein and she could be the same or similar.

He's here now and will get a lot of advice. Some of it will be very
good and some of it will be more dubious. He should sift through
the advice and use the advice he finds most applicable to his goals,
personality and situation and most importantly not take any of it
personally.

Very true and I agree. With that said...

Had it been me - "asking and/or accepting $800 to treat her illness in Ukraine, then asking for nearly $1,000.00 twice, etc..then throws it back at me saying that it is well within 'our understanding' that I take care of her" would not have transpired to begin with. Even if I was as rich as Gator or ML, I still wouldn't patronize and foster a *stranger* who expects that 'caring for her' has a price tag. But that's just me.

We all reap what we sow. YMMV.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 26, 2019, 09:13:53 AM
Ok. So you have told me what you would not do.

Now tell us what you would do.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: msmob on September 26, 2019, 09:24:37 AM
Ignore those who say 'move on'...get your ass over there, look her in the eye and agree a plan and if you cannot ..you have you answer...?

 

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: GQBlues on September 26, 2019, 09:33:22 AM
Ok. So you have told me what you would not do.

Now tell us what you would do.

1. I would not have wasted my time speaking to anyone I have not met in person for any length of time before ever meeting her in person. To me, that puts anyone in a confined environment to make any sane, and dare I say, rational decisions because all you really have is an image concocted solely in your mind, fueled strongly by your longing to 'touch' that image. By the time you do meet, your longing and emotions have taken over your ability to properly evaluate any given situation. Especially in an environment that is outside your norm and comfort (foreign country/culture).

I will spend all the time I can to get to know someone whom I already met, and have had a mutual and clear understanding of taking the necessary steps from thereon to get to know each other better.

2. Never, at any time, should one abandon your wits and instincts. You have been equipped with it for a very damn good reason. This includes not relying on strangers in the internet making life-changing decisions in my life,

3. You, on this current woman based on your story, I would've moved on a long time ago. You cannot lose what you never had!
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: ML on September 26, 2019, 10:26:46 AM
Ok. So you have told me what you would not do.

Now tell us what you would do.

Several of us have given you the correct path to take.

This gal is not for you and not for any American man.
She is running a con on you, even as it may be a very subtle and non aggressive con.
The FSU women are getting more and more sophisticated in their cons as they have learned from their sisters in crime and from reading discussion sites such as this.

Yes, some are still very aggressive and move in quickly for the kill because they don't want to take a lot of time.

But others are trying out a new approach such as this gal.  Slower, but steady.

Last night I gave a copy of your original message to my Ukrainian wife and told her to read it just before bed or first thing in morning, and that we would talk about it during our regular walk this morning.

Then this morning, I printed out the new message from the female that showed up here for first time, with moniker of Frrrrrrt.  I read that to my wife when we were walking.

She agreed almost 100% with what Frrrrrt wrote.

And she said that the money the gal asked for rent was ridiculous.  She has a relative who has a vet clinic right near center of Kyiv and rent is $900 per month for a very large nice space.  And the money you sent for medical was also ridiculous.  For pneumonia treatment the cost would be nothing at clinic or give them $20 or so, and antibiotic would be less than $10.

Also, she nor any of her friends would ever dream of asking a man to buy her shoes or anything else, let alone thousands of dollars for rent, medical treatment, etc.  Even after formal proposal and engagement they would never ask for such.   And planning marriage after such a short acquaintance time and not even meeting daughter and parents, friends, etc.  Totally absurd.

It doesn't matter that the money in question is not all that much for you or any other western man; it's the principle that she is scamming you.

In short, she said that you must be a very stupid and/or desperate man to fall for such an obvious scam.

As I told in first page.

Drop this gal.
Get back into the market.
Plan trip that includes meeting several women so you have a basis for comparison and don't have to ask such elementary questions here about . . . when to have sex, when to talk about money . . . etc., etc.  All this gets sorted out once you meet with several women and gain experience with FSU women.

There is the very old scam involving a dropped wallet on street.  I am sure you and others have heard of it.

But have you ever seen several pages written about the motives of the person who dropped the wallet, what path you should take in the future when you see a dropped wallet, how you should act with the person who dropped the wallet when you meet with them in future, etc.?

No . . . Everyone knows you just avoid dropped wallets.  Not a need to discuss and analyze it ad infinitum.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 26, 2019, 11:14:54 AM
Well, I appreciate the information and there is some good advice here. And your wife confirms it.

The nastiness was not necessary. If you don't want to discuss it anymore then don't or go somewhere else. No need to be abusive.

As for the con and it being obvious it apparently is not. Since many experienced men on this site have recommended not only that I am the one treating her wrong but that I should put her on an allowance. Which is giving an "obvious con/scammer" even more money.

As for asking when to have sex I never asked that. I know how to date a woman. I asked about when to have a suggested highly unusual discussion with a woman about her finances and my finances to establish her intimate financial situation to head off a potential con in the future. That I have no experience with and I suspect that even the most experienced men do not have.

This is certainly not so simple as a "dropped wallet" as you allude to in the end but in the beginning, you use the words "sophisticated and subtle" indicating this is not as it seems in your own words.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: jone on September 26, 2019, 11:31:32 AM
One of the reasons that many posters on this forum have advised you to put 'feet on the ground' and spend time with her, and, in addition, her family, is so that you will know how she interacts with people - including and especially her family.

For many reasons, not the least of which is the Soviet upbringing that many of these family units endured, there is a sense of protectionism that surrounds most people's lives living in Eastern Europe.   That protectionism seems to disappear when a man is brought into a welcoming home of the immediate family of the woman he is dating. 

I, and others, recommended the family meet - if only to judge her willingness to share with her family that the two of your are close and that you wish to pursue a more permanent relationship.   The converse is also true.   It is a huge red flag for a woman not to be keen on introducing you to her family.   

Unlike the most recent posters who have posted that this woman is only a scammer or looks like only a scammer, I think that there is more depth here and could be successfully explored.   But not over Skype.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Trenchcoat on September 26, 2019, 12:39:59 PM
Any attempt to operate outside this indicates a SCAM!

How so Krim? Wouldn't she just happily pocket the money for the time she gets it? $500 a month for doing nothing could be seen as a steal by many UW surely?
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 26, 2019, 12:57:13 PM
One of the reasons that many posters on this forum have advised you to put 'feet on the ground' and spend time with her, and, in addition, her family, is so that you will know how she interacts with people - including and especially her family.

For many reasons, not the least of which is the Soviet upbringing that many of these family units endured, there is a sense of protectionism that surrounds most people's lives living in Eastern Europe.   That protectionism seems to disappear when a man is brought into a welcoming home of the immediate family of the woman he is dating. 

I, and others, recommended the family meet - if only to judge her willingness to share with her family that the two of your are close and that you wish to pursue a more permanent relationship.   The converse is also true.   It is a huge red flag for a woman not to be keen on introducing you to her family.   

Unlike the most recent posters who have posted that this woman is only a scammer or looks like only a scammer, I think that there is more depth here and could be successfully explored.   But not over Skype.

Lessons learned. I was planning on doing both of these. I had talked about meeting the family. And spending more time with her. She had agreed to both. But I did not execute on this
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: BC on September 26, 2019, 01:42:34 PM
Thanks that helps.

Another question I have that has been covered here. And that is about the idea of giving her an allowance until she moves to the US. Interesting idea and it would seem to clear up some of the questions that can arise.

How would you do this and when?

I assume you would offer her equivalent to what she is currently earning right?

Tell her this is her responsibility and to stick to a budget?

When would this type of arrangement be set up?

It sure sounds a lot like sponsorship.


I would think the best time to go into this would be after you have a better understanding of her living and income situation and vice versa.

It's something to decide together.

As I stated before, I gave my to be wife a credit card, albeit one with a limit, 5k, asked her to do what she thought was reasonable in preparation for our wedding in RU along with whatever living expenses she needed.  It was used very little and amounts totally reasonable, including the cost of a tombstone for her grandmother that passed between trips.  This sorta eased the way with family into being able to get married in the mourning period, so yeah I deemed that reasonable and necessary.

During my trips before we were engaged, I would simply give her the cash I had budgeted for the trip and tell her when it's gone I have to go home... believe it or not one trip was extended two weeks past my visa expiration date,  but with a bit of magik a new visa appeared in my passport :)

This sorta gave me an idea of what to expect, but not saying there were no budgetary challenges down the road ;)

Guess it's sorta like dancing for the first time with a new partner.. a bit of give and take initially to find out what works out and if it remains enjoyable and within means.

This just my experience, not instructions.

Have you been introduced to family, friends etc and spent some time with them all and get a picture of family dynamics, both good and bad?  Always good idea I think. 

PS.. I'm posting this without having first reviewed all the previous posts..  quick moving thread...
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: JayH on September 26, 2019, 02:51:16 PM
Ok. So you have told me what you would not do.

Now tell us what you would do.

Your quoted question was not to me.

I wanted to comment on a couple of points --I disagree strongly with those who have commented on medical costs . Quoting zero to minimal $ costs is not realistic--  yes possible -- but not how it is generally done .eg  just yesterday -- my lady went to Dr with a blocked ear ( probably just wax dislodged in shower) -- it cost $25   not to wait what could have been 5/6 hours.This was  a simple problem-- but still required pharmacy costs too. I am also very (very) aware of real hospital costs   -- and they can easily be a very long way from free. NOTE --I am not theorising here -- this is all from up close personal exposure.
Conclusion -- on medical costs my opinion would be reserved until I knew more -- a lot more.

On business costs --ditto--  a months rent is not the cost of running any  business --it will have been more complicated than that.

On potential monthly payment -$500 -- not enough. It may be ok for survival and potentially  she has managed at that level -- but -- BUT-- not enough to live (LIVE) on. (once again it indicates to me guys living in the past)

There is some solid advice across the thread ( as I said much earlier) and I try not to repeat what others have already covered too much !  Note  BC -- calm and sensible solid advice.

Many have commented on getting to know her better( me included)  --and given you have already done K1 -that should be urgent now.When with someone extended time-- you see and learn a lot-- and I do not mean on a holiday somewhere .Being open minded and learn about her life ( including how she goes about shoe shopping etc) . Doing day to day things is often eye opening imo.

Did you buy her flowers when you were there?What else did you buy? Or have you taken the "I gave you some cash that is enough" approach?   My point is getting hung up over a few  $  is impeding your big picture thinking -- get past that and take a much wider look.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 26, 2019, 03:18:32 PM
Thanks Jay

Yes, I did buy her flowers and some small gifts also. I am getting confirmation on the money thing from a couple of Ukrainian women on here so there does seem to be some disagreement on this. I am not a tightwad. I have spent money plenty of money in the past. And I have supported people for most of my life. But it I am getting lied to and used that is a problem.

A bigger problem is that her communication with me has been limited at best since I told her I would not send the money. I will hold off for now but it does not look good. Her attitude has changed and I will reach out again tomorrow and see what happens.

But I have been forthright and honest throughout this entire process and I am treated her very well overall. Our relationship seemed to be delightful before. No real problems. But that was before when I was sending her cash for items that do not appear to be legitimate. Now it is not looking very good. I have not accused her in any way or got emotional or angry with her. I have been very calm and even.

I am learning. The expensive and hard way.

By the way I know how much she makes it is on her K1 application. 8,000 Hryvina.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: BC on September 26, 2019, 03:27:53 PM
I am learning. The expensive and hard way.

Don't feel bad. Par for the course.

The best advice I can probably give is don't follow your penis.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on September 26, 2019, 03:28:53 PM
8,000 UAH
if that’s her monthly income that’s a little over $300
why does she need $1900 for rent for a business that makes her $300 per month?

RED FLAG, because that’s the standard income for a McJob in Ukraine
me thinks you’re bein played...
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: 2tallbill on September 26, 2019, 03:30:34 PM

My husband has never gone shoe, or clothes shopping with me, and
we've managed to make it to well over three decades notwithstanding
this heinous lack of interest in my shoe purchases. 

You have feet and you live in Canada, somehow you've managed not
to get frost bite or show up shoe-less to an important social event.
I have the same level of interest in my wife's shoe shopping as your
husband does about yours.

It would never occur to my wife Angel Eyes to ask me to go shoe
shopping with her. We shop for food together frequently because
I do some of the cooking and she trusts my ability to pick out
fresh vegetables etc and I don't mind doing it. Shoe shopping
however, I would start painfully dying of boredom before she
tried on a second pair of shoes.

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 26, 2019, 03:31:52 PM
8,000 UAH
if that’s her monthly income that’s a little over $300
why does she need $1900 for rent for a business that makes her $300 per month?

RED FLAG, because that’s the standard income for a McJob in Ukraine
me thinks you’re bein played...

Yep.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: jone on September 26, 2019, 03:46:22 PM
Your quoted question was not to me.

I wanted to comment on a couple of points --I disagree strongly with those who have commented on medical costs . Quoting zero to minimal $ costs is not realistic--  yes possible -- but not how it is generally done .eg  just yesterday -- my lady went to Dr with a blocked ear ( probably just wax dislodged in shower) -- it cost $25   not to wait what could have been 5/6 hours.This was  a simple problem-- but still required pharmacy costs too. I am also very (very) aware of real hospital costs   -- and they can easily be a very long way from free. NOTE --I am not theorising here -- this is all from up close personal exposure.
Conclusion -- on medical costs my opinion would be reserved until I knew more -- a lot more.

On business costs --ditto--  a months rent is not the cost of running any  business --it will have been more complicated than that.

On potential monthly payment -$500 -- not enough. It may be ok for survival and potentially  she has managed at that level -- but -- BUT-- not enough to live (LIVE) on. (once again it indicates to me guys living in the past)

There is some solid advice across the thread ( as I said much earlier) and I try not to repeat what others have already covered too much !  Note  BC -- calm and sensible solid advice.

Many have commented on getting to know her better( me included)  --and given you have already done K1 -that should be urgent now.When with someone extended time-- you see and learn a lot-- and I do not mean on a holiday somewhere .Being open minded and learn about her life ( including how she goes about shoe shopping etc) . Doing day to day things is often eye opening imo.

Did you buy her flowers when you were there?What else did you buy? Or have you taken the "I gave you some cash that is enough" approach?   My point is getting hung up over a few  $  is impeding your big picture thinking -- get past that and take a much wider look.

Why would you send your woman to a Doctor who can't hear what she says?
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: GQBlues on September 26, 2019, 03:50:10 PM
Why would you send your woman to a Doctor who can't hear what she says?

 :ROFL:

I was going to comment on the same thing, but thought it will be off-topic. I'm sure there are other doctors in Ukraine she could've gone to that didn't have shower wax lodged in his ear.

Q-Tips anyone?
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Trenchcoat on September 26, 2019, 04:03:45 PM
Yep.

It's a higher than a low $100-150 a month or so a lot of UW can find themselves in who are in basic jobs.

There might be reasons for her not having saved much money. If she's Materialistic she could have spent a lot on clothes, jewellery, cosmetics etc. A girl who looks after herself to look good, buys that stuff, goes to the gym or similar, etc. Cost of her daughter, general living costs, costs of a better than bog standard place to live, etc, etc Plus has she been in work all that long, etc, etc.

I think you need to find more out about her if for learning purposes more than anything else. Take her up on her offer to meet her family, etc and get over there as quick as you can to resolve the battle going on in your mind.

She's been asking for what some would consider some large amounts of money from you on the hoof. Why she tapped you for this could be interesting to find out.

I said earlier that she sounds like a manipulative woman, I do rather suspect that she may unfortunately be a liar also and that she may have been hitting you for some easy money to gain on the side and potentially citizenship in the US. As others have pointed out the sums she asked for don't really match up with the costs they should cost, not by s long way.

She stated that her half of the first month's rent was $950, is that to say before she joined the partner the partner was stumping up $1900 a month for the whole cost of the office! Or similar. This is an astounding amount for out there.

I would move quick and visit her and see this office she is renting, her family, etc if only to put your mind at rest.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: JayH on September 26, 2019, 04:09:48 PM
Why would you send your woman to a Doctor who can't hear what she says?

Now you  & GQ  are channelling the most obtuse poster on the forum !
Pretty sure you knew what I was saying !! LoL!
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: jone on September 26, 2019, 04:13:40 PM
Now you  & GQ  are channelling the most obtuse poster on the forum !
Pretty sure you knew what I was saying !! LoL!

Not obtuse.   Just full of humor.   As in, what was the name of his other leg?
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: JayH on September 26, 2019, 04:20:21 PM
Thanks Jay

Yes, I did buy her flowers and some small gifts also. I am getting confirmation on the money thing from a couple of Ukrainian women on here so there does seem to be some disagreement on this. I am not a tightwad. I have spent money plenty of money in the past. And I have supported people for most of my life. But it I am getting lied to and used that is a problem.

A bigger problem is that her communication with me has been limited at best since I told her I would not send the money. I will hold off for now but it does not look good. Her attitude has changed and I will reach out again tomorrow and see what happens.

But I have been forthright and honest throughout this entire process and I am treated her very well overall. Our relationship seemed to be delightful before. No real problems. But that was before when I was sending her cash for items that do not appear to be legitimate. Now it is not looking very good. I have not accused her in any way or got emotional or angry with her. I have been very calm and even.

I am learning. The expensive and hard way.

By the way I know how much she makes it is on her K1 application. 8,000 Hryvina.

I think I would get in a discussion about exactly what the money is needed for -- specifically. That is a crucial piece of information before deciding  about it -- and what she was think on this issue.Generalising answers without knowing more could be a big mistake .
On stated income -- depending on type of business -- cash income can be considerably higher .

I am not setting out to debate every point -- but -- things are never that black & white .

I can see you are on the negative side here -=- being calm is good -- and the best way to establish information that can help you. For me-- I have laid out a basis of why I would not jump to a conclusion based on what info you have disclosed here.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Boethius on September 26, 2019, 04:25:51 PM
Your quoted question was not to me.

I wanted to comment on a couple of points --I disagree strongly with those who have commented on medical costs . Quoting zero to minimal $ costs is not realistic--  yes possible -- but not how it is generally done .eg  just yesterday -- my lady went to Dr with a blocked ear ( probably just wax dislodged in shower) -- it cost $25   not to wait what could have been 5/6 hours.This was  a simple problem-- but still required pharmacy costs too. I am also very (very) aware of real hospital costs   -- and they can easily be a very long way from free. NOTE --I am not theorising here -- this is all from up close personal exposure.
Conclusion -- on medical costs my opinion would be reserved until I knew more -- a lot more.

I am not theorizing either.  I have funded three surgeries in Ukraine in the past five years - one for gallbladder removal, one for a very complex operation that required a bone graft, and one colorectal surgery.  All were performed at state hospitals, so technically, were free.  However, to obtain quality care, patients are expected to pay extra.  One payment, five years ago, was US$50.  Two, one a few months ago, the other, 10 months ago, were each US$100 to the physician, US$20 to the main nurse. 

In addition to the above, MIL had surgery 2 years ago and paid nothing.  She absolutely refused to pay anyone, but still managed to receive timely and quality care.  The difference for her was, she didn't care if she lived or died.  So, the idea that someone paid a physician, say, US$700 to diagnose pneumonia is ridiculous.   

I assume OP sent the $800 without being asked. That's fine, but that she is now asking for even more says something about her character.

We have never sent that much money.  If we did, we'd be told we were sending too much, and not to do that again.  The better half would send as much as his family requires, and he has never sent more than US$200 at a time  He's now reduced that to $100, as his sister says she doesn't want more because she doesn't know who will follow her home.  He always asks if they need money, and the answer is no most of the time.

The reality Jay is that your lady didn't want to wait, had the funds, and was willing to pay more to go to the front of the line.  No one in Ukraine is paying a physician hundreds of dollars for a diagnosis of a relatively routine illness.

PS - The trust is gone OP.  You would really have to build it up to move forward, if you even can do so.  I could never marry a man who tried to pull the wool over my eyes about money.  But, among a subset of FSU individuals, this is normal, even done within families.

This post was composed without the aid of google. 
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 26, 2019, 04:37:35 PM
I think I would get in a discussion about exactly what the money is needed for -- specifically. That is a crucial piece of information before deciding  about it -- and what she was think on this issue.Generalising answers without knowing more could be a big mistake .
On stated income -- depending on type of business -- cash income can be considerably higher .

I am not setting out to debate every point -- but -- things are never that black & white .

I can see you are on the negative side here -=- being calm is good -- and the best way to establish information that can help you. For me-- I have laid out a basis of why I would not jump to a conclusion based on what info you have disclosed here.

The money is for half of the rent on her office where her practice is. The total rent is $1900 and she needs half. It is unlikely that it is this much even for the best part of town. You could probably get a decent professional office in her city for about $400 per month i would estimate.

I have asked her many questions. I suggested she find a new partner to replace the one that is leaving. I suggested she is paying too much for rent she says she needs this place because they do not charge for heat in the winter. She says she is looking for a new partner. When I told her that it does not look good. She did not like this. But did not get mad she just made a face and eventually turned cold to me.

She wants the money and is not getting her way. She just assumed I would send her the money. My fault for creating that perception. One good test for a woman is to see how she reacts when you say no. So far her reaction is not very good.
Title: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: 2tallbill on September 26, 2019, 04:42:52 PM
Thanks man. I am working on it.

Let me ask you another specific. You talked about a financial planning meeting early, and Frrrrrt, and a few others mentioned this.

How would you suggest going about this. Because I have never done this with a woman in early dating.

First or second or third date?

In person or via skype? Does this matter?

Before sex or after sex?

I have dated many women but this is new ground for me.

In the first few skype conversations I would see if I liked her, if she
had a sense of humor and in every call, letter etc. I would be checking
her character.

In the first few chats, I dump the girl +90% of the time (or get dumped
myself). I realize it's difficult to believe that there are women running
around on this Earth that have rejected my handsome, charming and
humorous self, but it's happened.

Once, I've determined that I like a girl and that she likes what she's
seen so far, I start talking about meeting in person. If she hesitates
then she gets kicked to the curb.

From that point on I am talking about situations, and they realize that
I'm seriously considering them and they start seriously considering me.
I have conversations about everything. I don't have much of a financial
conversation before we meet except some basic stuff. Explaining that I
am not a majority stockholder in Microsoft, Google or Amazon and that
they shouldn't expect rides in private jets or weekly purchases of mink
panties.

I am always moving forward and always creating scenarios. Miss
Sweetie-smile let's talk about raising children and try to eliminate
potential problems in advance before they happen. Blah, blah, blah.

I know of a guy who had HUGE argument with his wife about her son
who was in his mind spoiled and she wouldn't let him correct him about
anything. THEY WERE FREAKING MARRIED!!!! and they hadn't talked
about what they would do about potential conflicts or back talking.

So you can always say, my friend Bill told me about a guy who got
married without talking about ____________ (next subject here)
who would marry a girl without talking about________________
(enter subject here) 
 
Any serious girl will welcome all of these conversations. They want a
serious man who is thoughtful and who thinks ahead about things.

A scammer girl will not be able to have long conversations about
whether a new baby sleeps in the bed after breast feeding or goes
back into the crib.

A serious girl will be eager to talk about this.
A scammer girl won't talk about herbs grown in the window sill
or the health benefits of _____________ (enter some type of
tea or soup here).

Another thing you can say is "We have a million things to discuss
before you arrive" and jump right into anything. Once it dawns on
her that you are moving things in a positive direction she will fasten
her seat belt and get ready for the ride.

Talking about financial matters is gradual and usually after the first
meeting for me at least. I give her the I'm not rich disclaimers and
if the Skype call doesn't immediately go dead I move on to the next
issue.

I talked with Angel Eyes about all sorts of financial things after our
first meeting, but after our second meeting she was all in. I knew
that we were going to be Mr and Mrs 2tallbill some day.

I told her a hundred times that she was going to fall in love with me
and live happily ever after. She nodded her head every time as if it
was the law of gravity and indisputable.

Udachi!

Bill




Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: JayH on September 26, 2019, 05:14:08 PM
The money is for half of the rent on her office where her practice is. The total rent is $1900 and she needs half. It is unlikely that it is this much even for the best part of town. You could probably get a decent professional office in her city for about $400 per month i would estimate.


Did I see upthread her city was Dnipro?
Not being obtuse ! -- But -maybe it was more than one one months rent? Plus other expenses?
On her attitude-- mmm maybe disappointed-maybe she sees lack of trust etc
Even if her English is in the ok category -- much gets lost in a conversation- and easily misunderstood.

To me -it seems you have already decided .  :)
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Frrrrrrt on September 26, 2019, 05:22:20 PM
Wut wut? What did I just read? Her total income is 300 dollars? :cluebat:
What is her business? Walking to every office and selling Avon or maybe monthly travelling to Turkey to bring load of cheap clothing later to sell on dirty market? Sorry, but it can't be true person living in Kiev and having business where only rent costs sh*t tonne of money to earn that less. I know situation in Ukraine pretty well and have friends all over country from Lviv to Kiev, Odessa and Kharkov and no, no one having own more or less successful business earn less than 1500 a month. 300 is salary of cash girl in random grocery store, hotel administrator, etc.
Okay, let's suppose she didn't lie and her business really gives 300 bucks monthly, so she can't even pay the rent. Then why to keep it? On her place I've close it and found job for 500 where I can drink coffee, eat cookies, make small things I have to do and without explosion in brain at 18:00 go home :D
Now next question. If woman earns that less, how she can afford dress to nine? Who pays for it? :D Look, in Ukraine even Zara and H&M cost nearly double price to Europe, brands are way way more expensive. Or she finds her clothing in charity stores like random people with 300 $ salary?
Trenchcoat, 100-150 $ is salary of person having a basic job and living in very small city, in big city for making same job person will earn twice more. Don't forget, cost of living there is also smaller than in megapolis and there no even enough options to spend lot of money. Small city people often don't even spend money on rent, they own houses or live with parents/relatives, walk to work instead of driving or paying for bus/metro, there no good quality bars, restaurants, no shopping malls or groceries with big variety of items, etc. So no, I wouldn't say lifestyle of woman from Kiev with 300 $ salary is better than someone from small place with 150$. Bigger city always mean higher salaries, but also higher cost of life.  :rolleyes:
2tallbill, as for me, hopeless romantic is person who dreams about meeting his love for life, someone who always open door and to every small ocasion give flowers, pretty sentimental dreamer, etc. But when 2 people are from different places and without taking their time for conversation and life together just go and marry, it only means they is desperate to be with at least someone. Reasons of desperation can be different: loneliness, not being able to find partner for big amount of time, no opportunities to get better life, etc., but its still desperation. Best example is my good friend. He is local, met some girl online and they both thought:"Oh, I am already 30, everyone around already have family and child and I'm still single" and in between few months married. Okay, they made ceremony and she comes to his place. First of all she says:"Yo, I don't want live with your parents in this rat house. Rent smth nice or I move away. I expect in between few years you to buy flat, get a car and we to have decent life. And by the way, you know people here, find for me job." He says:"But I have a simple job, my salary is 400 dollars a month, how can I get all this?" Answer:"I don't care". How do you think, what happened later? Few days later when he was at work she took her clothes and gone. This happens when people are desperate to marry without not knowing person clearly, don't speak about future and have pink glasses on eyes. See, locals also can do same mistake as those to engage woman after few weeks of seeing her face to face and end is pretty much same in both situations, the only difference abroad isn't that easy to pack, go home and forget.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on September 26, 2019, 05:33:46 PM
scarface,

there seem to be some inconsistencies with this woman, and that’s ALWAYS the sign of a scammer...

unfortunately, it’s hard to pick up all the details from your narrative...
my suggestion:
create a table showing each time she requested money and how much, and for what...

any other odd situations, besides NOT meeting her family?
 
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: BillyB on September 26, 2019, 05:47:38 PM
A bigger problem is that her communication with me has been limited at best since I told her I would not send the money. I will hold off for now but it does not look good. Her attitude has changed and I will reach out again tomorrow and see what happens.


She probably is questioning your ability to share finances. If she were a scammer, she'd find ways to be sick, her family being sick or some emergency that is solved with money. Although she  asked for money for rent, she's never asked you to send a monthly allowance to take care of her. Some women have asked their men to buy them apartments.

I don't think anybody here can give you solid advice without actually knowing the facts. You said she's never lied to you but hint her behavior could be of a scammer. I doubt she can be honest and a scammer at the same time. If you.re reading her wrong, we will give you the wrong advice. Probably why we at the forum are all over the place with our advice.

She's your fiancée and if you love her at this moment, tell her to quit her job and you'll take care of her replacing or bettering her salary with $350-400 a month. It will show you're not stingy and able to take care of her and she can show you she's ready to drop her job to prepare for a life with you. $400 a month isn't much. An FSU woman will cost more after she arrives. If your woman is willing to work, she may eventually contribute more money than you into the relationship.

I met my wife in Ukraine but she was actually living in Libya. After we became exclusive, I sometimes sent money telling her I want her to out and have a nice meal, or buy something nice for herself. She never asked me for money and she was living with her mom who made good money working as a doctor in Libya. She fled Tripoli the day the rebels entered the city during Libya's civil war. Knowing her mom was out of a job, I offered to send them money every month to help take care of them. My wife did not ask for it.

I'm sure you wish your fiancée didn't ask for anything but she may be worried if you never shown you can take care of a wife financially. Women worry because they are going to give up their life and job for a man that they haven't spent much time with. They worry the man may fail as a husband. Us men have to be careful we don't get used by gold diggers but if we find a good woman, we have to prove we can perform the role of a husband who loves his wife more than his money.

Her total income is 300 dollars? :cluebat:


That's what she put on paper. She could be making more if cash sales are involved. Not everything gets reported to the government. She didn't need the extra rent money when she had a partner. The business may cost a lot to operate but there were profits to live off with until the partner got pregnant and had to stop working.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Frrrrrrt on September 26, 2019, 07:49:37 PM
Okay, but did she tell how much normally earns? Sure its typical thing to put on tax less than you really earn or have workers whom you pay cash, but fiancee is not tax man, right? Let's say she didn't need money while having partner and no troubles with rent. Then the most simple option to wait till contract for rent of building finishes and find cheaper place. She didn't have any savings to deal with this problem? If not, its absolutely bad money managing.
Point of getting pregnant and quit job is more about someone who have basic job. Normally people who have business are smart enough to understand they still will have to do all they did before if want to keep business successful. It doesn't matter are you woman, man or third gender. In case no one else can make job of second partner, find someone who can do it or let grandmother look after a child/hire a babysister. It's not simple, but if you want to earn more than average, you also have to work and think more than average people. No other options.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 26, 2019, 08:15:24 PM
Okay, but did she tell how much normally earns? Sure its typical thing to put on tax less than you really earn or have workers whom you pay cash, but fiancee is not tax man, right? Let's say she didn't need money while having partner and no troubles with rent. Then the most simple option to wait till contract for rent of building finishes and find cheaper place. She didn't have any savings to deal with this problem? If not, its absolutely bad money managing.
Point of getting pregnant and quit job is more about someone who have basic job. Normally people who have business are smart enough to understand they still will have to do all they did before if want to keep business successful. It doesn't matter are you woman, man or third gender. In case no one else can make job of second partner, find someone who can do it or let grandmother look after a child/hire a babysister. It's not simple, but if you want to earn more than average, you also have to work and think more than average people. No other options.

I agree. I originally brought up these issues. I said her partner should look to her husband for her half of the rent like she had done in the past. And that it was not our responsibility. I also asked how this was coming up now since her partner had been pregnant for a long time. She said she did not think about it. She even admitted she had been inconsistent.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: msmob on September 26, 2019, 09:00:27 PM
Dear SF.

You have had lots of advice and only YOU and her can know what to do next.

I would not conduct this chat over video chat...you having started the visa process, you must have felt enough of a connection .

It is worth going there and looking her in the eyes

You HAVE made a committment and if you are going to break it...based on advice here..do it to her face.


Your mistake may only be your haste and her thinking you will support her every cost.

If you go there and it all goes south you have saved yourself a lot of time and grief for later.

Just say to her...look, I do not regret asking you to come to my country, but can I meet your daughter and we should agree a monthly budget..until you come..?

You need to know you are doing what YOU want and not be influenced by us.







Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: BillyB on September 26, 2019, 11:24:55 PM
I agree. I originally brought up these issues. I said her partner should look to her husband for her half of the rent like she had done in the past. And that it was not our responsibility. I also asked how this was coming up now since her partner had been pregnant for a long time. She said she did not think about it. She even admitted she had been inconsistent.

Are you looking for validation that you're getting played? We have people on the forum that will give you validation. We also have people that will tell you that they don't see enough red flags in your fiancée. If you barely knew the woman, I'd say leave over a request of money. Since she's your fiancée, it's not inappropriate of her to ask you for money so she can continue a business that feeds her, clothe her, and puts a roof over her head, which are things you'll have to do full time eventually.

You said on page 1 your fiancée is looking for a new partner for the business since the pregnant partner is probably not going to return. Now you're telling us you told your fiancée the pregnant partner's husband should pay for half the rent. Why would you say that if she told you the pregnant partner is going to be out of the picture? She may be more upset on how your brain functioned at that time than the fact you didn't help her out. If my wife was in a partnership and announced she was quitting and her partner's spouse said I should continue to pay for half the rent, I'd think he's having a brain malfunction.

At the time she wanted to continue the business when the pregnant partner wanted out, you should have told her quit the business too and offer you'll take care of her until she gets her visa. A guy in love with a woman would've thought about that quickly to help her prepare for a life with him.

If you don't love her and don't trust her, resolve the issues or cancel the wedding. Doesn't really matter what any of us think about your woman. Whether you're right or wrong about your fiancee's character doesn't really matter either because at this time you're unsure. How you feel is what matters. You want the woman you proposed to, go all in and learn to trust her since you mentioned on page 1 the trust issues are yours. You want out, tell her goodbye.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Omega82 on September 27, 2019, 12:07:54 AM
When I was in high school there was a school motto that went something like this.  "Give a man fish and feed him for one day, teach a man how to fish and feed him for his lifetime".  I understand the traditional communist mentality does not believe in planning for the future.  Additionally many people are becoming like the child that you tell them you can have an expired piece of chocolate cake now, or a fresh bigger cake tomorrow, and the child will take the expired cake today.  Why are women like this?  Why do we continue to see these stories yet we dont see any new marriages?  On the other forum I was reading about a 38 year old from the US with a six figure USD income and he was asked to spend money on a phone and groceries totaling $200 and all sorts of crap but no long term plans.  why would a Ukrainian woman pass up a reasonable 38 year old American with a six figure income?  The average salary is what $300 per month in Ukraine, but we dont see any more marriages.  On the other forum the guy was told to go seek therapy.  Very kind of the admin.  So what's really happening?  I understand nobody wants to marry their grandfather, but this guy was 38. 
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: JayH on September 27, 2019, 01:46:01 AM
  Hey -- what is going on here? 
"Since her daughter is 18 years old"
"It seems since she is 18 "
and this in thread above---- "toward getting her K1 and her 16 YO daughter's K2 Visa to come to the US."

 :shock:
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: JayH on September 27, 2019, 02:03:04 AM
   why would a Ukrainian woman pass up a reasonable 38 year old American with a six figure income?
 

How about because the guy is a tool !!
I keep saying it -- but -- so many guys are not acceptable   -be that presentation,personality,attitude.socially inept etc etc  and unfortunately I would say that is a majority online.



  The average salary is what $300 per month in Ukraine, but we dont see any more marriages.  So what's really happening?

How many times is that silly mythical idea got to be repeated ( $300 per month etc )   as a reason for a girl looking west. Even in the thread above it got debunked -- and only the idiotic keep throwing it up as a fact.  The basis of this is the promoters of the idea that  every girl is needing "rescuing" -- a concept that may( nb may) have worked 20 years ago but totally out of step today. :deadhorse:

On this forum -- we have the forum idiot ( TC) repeating it as a fact - and a reason why he would succeed --the bottom line is that if you( or anyone) think money will seal the deal- ya better have plenty plus plenty plus plenty ! :cluebat:
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 27, 2019, 05:45:12 AM
Are you looking for validation that you're getting played? We have people on the forum that will give you validation. We also have people that will tell you that they don't see enough red flags in your fiancée. If you barely knew the woman, I'd say leave over a request of money. Since she's your fiancée, it's not inappropriate of her to ask you for money so she can continue a business that feeds her, clothe her, and puts a roof over her head, which are things you'll have to do full time eventually.

You said on page 1 your fiancée is looking for a new partner for the business since the pregnant partner is probably not going to return. Now you're telling us you told your fiancée the pregnant partner's husband should pay for half the rent. Why would you say that if she told you the pregnant partner is going to be out of the picture? She may be more upset on how your brain functioned at that time than the fact you didn't help her out. If my wife was in a partnership and announced she was quitting and her partner's spouse said I should continue to pay for half the rent, I'd think he's having a brain malfunction.

At the time she wanted to continue the business when the pregnant partner wanted out, you should have told her quit the business too and offer you'll take care of her until she gets her visa. A guy in love with a woman would've thought about that quickly to help her prepare for a life with him.

If you don't love her and don't trust her, resolve the issues or cancel the wedding. Doesn't really matter what any of us think about your woman. Whether you're right or wrong about your fiancee's character doesn't really matter either because at this time you're unsure. How you feel is what matters. You want the woman you proposed to, go all in and learn to trust her since you mentioned on page 1 the trust issues are yours. You want out, tell her goodbye.

Billy thanks for the response and the analysis. I am not going to try to parse this down too much but a couple of things.

"Am I looking for validation I got played?" I am looking for an indication that I was or not played. And how I reacted was or was not appropriate like I said in my OP. There are a lot of experienced guys on here and I have not encountered scenarios like this in the past. I think it makes sense to try to get some context and some ideas.

"Since she is my fiance it is not appropriate for her to ask for money?" Of course, it is appropriate and I gave her money on several occasions willingly and offered it even when she did not ask. However, it is not appropriate for someone in a committed relationship who pretends to love them to manipulate and lie to you to extract money from you and then act hurt if you refuse. And sadly this seems to be the case here. I believe you have followed this thread but not I will reiterate. I have supported love ones for many decades and continue to do so. No one has ever supported me outside of very early in my life. And I have never begrudged a woman that is with me, my support and care.

But I have limits and boundaries. And lying and manipulation is not acceptable. She could have come to me with a simple request for money and asked. SF I am short of money, things are difficult can you help me out. But instead, she created this elaborate series of scenarios to extract larger sums of money from me. And it worked.

I will cover more of your issues and others in another post.

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: GenMish on September 27, 2019, 05:54:31 AM
Oy Vey
Sounds like another fishy thread, and everyone gets excited telling him he was a fool. If true, who commits to a K1 and a K2 without assessing the commitment made and costs involved? At her age, $2000 is the drop in the bucket. You will need twice that per year just for her clown paint

We need younger guys here, 18-24 yrs is where the value is. 26 years ago, I was the one receiving the gifts from the families of the women that wanted to marry. I remember taking my fiancé to Nordstroms, the clown paint lady couldn't believe my FSU Bride wasn't wearing makeup. While US women were frying their faces in tanning Salons, young Russian woman kept their natural beauty. All makeup is, young women trying to look like whores, or old women trying to look young

MORE IMPORTANTLY, what 50 plus year old guy gets stuck at 2nd or 3rd base? At our age, after 1st base, we are walked to Home Plate to spend and hour. Its a rule! Women know if we spend too much time at 2nd or 3rd, we only have 10 minutes left for home plate ...LOL
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 27, 2019, 06:01:07 AM
None of your assumptions are accurate. It appears you are looking for an excuse to insult someone and brag a little bit.

Please take your comments elsewhere.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 27, 2019, 06:51:38 AM
Well, I first want to say thanks to all of the people who offered perspective and advice. It has helped. There have been many opinions from"I am stupid" to "I am not supportive enough" and "I should send her more money." To the also interesting opinion that "I should have known better that everyone should have known she was lying." This is a hugely wide divergence of opinion but hey its the internet and I asked for it. It does seem like a lot of people's first inclination is to berate insult and attack. I wonder how many of these people would do this if we were sitting together in a coffee shop?

Next, I want to say that I have discovered a few other things since my initial post. And it does shed more light on the entire situation. When I started to hear actual facts about things like health care costs and office rent costs. I then become even more suspicious and of course, I then started to pull on this thread. I looked at her K1 application much more closely and saw a few other things.

It had her place of work address and I found this and it is not in the city center and it is not a very nice office building. In fact, it is not an office building at all. Although it may have office space inside. Anyone looking at this building would not pay $1900 for a single office or even $900, maybe $300. So this is another fact.

Then I found her marriage status and it showed her as single never been married not divorced. This was another fact she had never told me. And we talked about her "ex-husband" as well as my ex-wife in our many many hours of personal conversations.

Then I also noticed she has now visited the site where we first met.

I tell you all of these things for a couple of reasons.

1. I entered into this relationship with serious intent and a desire to "trust" the woman I was getting to know. I had doubts at certain points like many people do but I suppressed those doubts intentionally and consciously to reaffirm my commitment to her and leave myself open for potential surprises in the future. Ergo my own trust issues and my attempt to work them out.

2. What I am basing my conclusions on is not money or the amount of money like so many on here keep insisting is my hangup. It is lying and dishonesty. The ability to trust the person that is lying next to you every night.

I have given her my complete fidelity and trust and quite a bit of money and this should account for a lot with her. But it has not since my refusal to pay her the $950 dollars she has limited communication with me and when she has communicated it is cold or a bit manipulative. This says a lot. People get hurt a lot in relationships and if they love each other they still deal with each other and try to work it out. Not try to control or punish.

A good friend of mine that I asked about this situation whose profession is to evaluate people. He told me two things "don't look at what people say look at what they do". And "test her and keep testing her, because she will be testing you and you both need to know." This is something to keep in mind if I try this again.

But right now her actions are looking pretty bad. And I must say pretty sophisticated. Do I think she cared for me? Yes. Our conversations, her interest in my personal health family business and other small things show this. But I also think she was trying to get what she could. Which is deeply troubling.

I am of course going to give her a chance to explain or make some attempt to meet me halfway on this. But I am not going to go on as I did before. She has some explaining to do. I will try to ask her carefully but I will need some answers.

No one wants to be lied to. I will be watching her actions but at this point, it is not looking good. A relationship is a two-way street and just like I have been told many times Russian women respect a man who does not let them run over them.

My mistake was going into this too quickly and without enough visits and time with the family. That's on me. Some people said I was desperate. I don't think so. A desperate person would not question these things, a desperate person would not walk away. I could have easily given her the money and did nothing else and went on about my merry way thinking everything was fine. Mistakes yes desperate no.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: 2tallbill on September 27, 2019, 07:23:49 AM

I assume you would offer her equivalent to what she is currently earning right?

No, she will spend less money if she isn't working. She won't be commuting
or eating for convenience. She will spend less on panty hose. Set up an
amount.

NOTE: I never did this for Angel Eyes, she required very little from me,
but I spent money on English lessons for her and her daughter. I spent
money on having her box up some of her stuff and shipping it to the
USA. There were a number of costs associated with certified translations
epistles etc. 

Tell her this is her responsibility and to stick to a budget?

No, 

You tell her that you trust her to manage this money.
She will probably squirrel away 25% of it somehow
for a rainy day.



When would this type of arrangement be set up?

You would normally do it after you did the due diligence and knew
and trusted everything about her (mostly) and becoming engaged.


It sure sounds a lot like sponsorship.

She is leaping off a building knowing/hoping that you will catch
her. She is leaving her entire safety net. Her friends, family,
language and culture.

She needs to end her business because it's not self supporting
without a partner and she is planning on leaving it behind anyway.

Also come up with a list of stuff for her to do. The last thing you
want is for a hard working, educated and intelligent woman to
be not busy.

She needs to get her education diploma's translated and certified,
others can tell you more about how to do this.

Can she drive? Maybe a few driving lessons which are less expensive
over there and she can scare the Be-Jesus out of somebody else
besides yourself.

Plan another trip to see her. You have a billion details to go over.

What's the status of her daughters father? Is he going to sign off
on her leaving?

Keep working on the due diligence and getting to know her and by
all means keep her busy.

Take a photo of your back yard, which is sadly without sufficient
flowers for a real family. Give her some links to what grows well
in your area. Keep her busy, keep her mind on planning and on
good things. 

Udachi!

Bill
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: c5h on September 27, 2019, 07:29:47 AM
.....
By the way I know how much she makes it is on her K1 application. 8,000 Hryvina.

This is pretty much the standard salary in Ukraine even for professional jobs due to whatever the tax laws, govt red tape is, most of the people I know there make this amount as there official salary.  They get a second payment from there employer as a USD cash bonus, or in other jobs they get bribes.  It's not a surprise that a Ukrainian would list this as there official salary on K1 app.  A web developer may make $300+ $3k bonus, police officer $300 + $500 in bribes.  When you apply for a K1 your already engaged, so you should already know the other person's finances and be certain on the relationship.

I have a Ukrainian wife in USA now.  I sent $600 before the K1, to pay for Visa fee, medical fee for K1, and help support her because she quit her job a month before she left and knew her for 2yrs+.  If she didn't happen to have a wealthy father she would not have been able to cover plane tickets, and shipping stuff here, etc on her own.  I think the rent and business situation probably isn't true, the Doctor cost is definitely not true, but she may have had legitimate needs for the funds.  She may legitimately have some concerns about your ability to support her and she is testing you.  Some of my wife's family was concerned about me, I didn't plan big wedding, honeymoon, or really do anything expensive or special for her and they thought I could playing her.
Title: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: 2tallbill on September 27, 2019, 07:46:39 AM
Then I also noticed she has now visited the site where we first met.

You don't know why, she could have been changing her status or felt
lonely and nostalgic so she could reread all of your exchanges.

He told me two things "don't look at what people say look at what they do". And "test her and keep testing her, because she will be testing you and you both need to know." This is something to keep in mind if I try this again.

Hmmmmmmm.. . I wouldn't test her. I think that testing an FSUW
will blow up in your face. Most good girls will get pissed off about it

If she is dishonest then it will show itself, all you have to do is remember
what she says and does.


This is something to keep in mind if I try this again.

If you plan on dumping her then dump her. Don't go into a back
and forth with accusations, explanations and recriminations.


Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 27, 2019, 07:56:59 AM
Bill thanks for the advice. Your posts have been some of the best. You spell things out clearly.

As for going back and forth. I have never done that. I am either in a relationship or I am out of it. I don't play games. Remember this just happened on Tuesday.

Seems like it has been weeks. lol
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: jone on September 27, 2019, 08:12:48 AM
I dated a woman who on the outside looked perfect.   Kind personality.  Introduced me to her family.  Conversant.  And our time together was quite wonderful.   While I spent money on her, it was not excessive.  She had a young son and could not work a full time job so my allowance to her was to pay for the apartment she lived in.   Altogether it was, maybe, $300 per month.

She was rejected.  Twice.  For a Tourist Visa to the US.  So, instead we traveled to countries that she could go to.  And we met in St. Petersburg for an extended vacation.   

Through this all, there were a couple of nagging threads that I pulled at.  I couldn't quite put my finger on it.   She was liked by my family.   And so I began the process of bringing her to the US as my bride.

I chastised myself for overthinking the relationship.  But two things continued to stand out.  The first is that after meeting her mother a couple of times, we did not see her again.   And she never took me to her mother's home.
 
The second issue is that she continued to lose things that I would buy her.  I bought her a nicer phone than the little flip phone she had been using.   She told me that she lost the new phone in a taxi.   Oddly, she was very sophisticated with technology and this particular phone had the ability to be registered so could not be 'lost' as a locator could be turned on.

All things considered, these were minor blips despite an otherwise satisfying relationship.  Had things not digressed I'm pretty sure I would have married her and I would have entered the same living hell as her previous husband experienced with her. 

It seems my gal was the 'pass around' gal at parties.   She would go out at night, get drunk and wind up with whomever happened to be present.   I only found out about this because one of her friends whom I had gotten to know pretty well explained what had happened in her marriage.  She would get her husband to watch their son and return in the morning.   Guys, girls, it didn't matter.   She lived to party.  While she was not an alcoholic, she was addicted to partying.

Now, for some guys, this would be exquisite.  A stunningly beautiful Russian woman who was fun to be with.   But, I talked to her family members and found out that this fault was extreme.   The reason her mother would not be part of her life is that her mother considered her to be a 'bad' girl.   (As a matter of interest, eventually, her mother and ex husband took over care for the son and this gal shed her maternal responsibilities.)

Taken in one or two week stints together, this party girl lifestyle was something to behold.   It could entice any guy - and did me.   But  I could see the handwriting on the wall after confronting her a couple of times when we were apart.  I stopped the relationship.   It was not easy.   But I could see no future whereby I would be happy.  Who wants a woman who cannot be loyal to the man she is with?

A year after we split up, she married a guy from San Francisco.  I was told this by some of her friends from her home city whom I was still in contact with.   Upon marrying this guy she started up her late night shenanigans in a new city.   Within two years, she was still married but living apart.   I'm assuming waiting to get a green card.  Her son is still in Russia.

The reason for putting this all down in this thread is the reiteration of the continued advice I gave above.   Until you actually live with a woman you don't know what type of relationship you have forged.  Had I not engaged her friends in dialogue I would have never been able to put the scenario together.   It made me wonder if the guy she wound up with ever did his due diligence.   I think not as they were married three months into the relationship.

For those reading this, the gal always claimed fidelity and loyalty throughout the relationship.  What hurt the most is that her actions belied her oaths of love.  This experience pushed me in a different direction.  And now, years later, I am thankful for it.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 27, 2019, 08:20:33 AM
Jone,

What an amazing story. It is proof that you did your due diligence and saved yourself from a lifetime of misery if you had married her.

Maybe Krimster is right. You have to look at this as a fun adventure and not take it too seriously.

Do your due diligence and then after quality time together and learning about her family and friends then make a decision on what you should do.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: fathertime on September 27, 2019, 08:38:24 AM


Maybe Krimster is right. You have to look at this as a fun adventure and not take it too seriously.
 
Yes that is a good attitude to take in my opinion. 

Fathertime!
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: ML on September 27, 2019, 08:46:23 AM
I am of course going to give her a chance to explain or make some attempt to meet me halfway on this. But I am not going to go on as I did before. She has some explaining to do. I will try to ask her carefully but I will need some answers.


Really . . . you want to give it more of a try after you know she lied about several things?

Unfortunately for some of us, there is truth in what many (most) FSU folks think about the majority of us.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: GQBlues on September 27, 2019, 09:12:43 AM
....Through this all, there were a couple of nagging threads that I pulled at.  I couldn't quite put my finger on it.   She was liked by my family.   And so I began the process of bringing her to the US as my bride....

Ahhh! Another breathe of fresh air. Never, ever, abandon your wits and instinct.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 27, 2019, 09:25:27 AM
You know it is really sad how there is this incessant need to attack and to shame. These two previous posts are good examples.

What a miserable life you must have to be this angry that you must go on a forum and attack someone because you don't agree with them. Are you that unconscious?  Do you think that no one on here sees you?

If anyone I am the one that should be angry. But you don't see me acting petulant and nasty.

I thought there was some sort of code of conduct on this forum? Is that just a formality?

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on September 27, 2019, 09:48:06 AM
scarface,

I mean no disrespect to you personally...
but an American in Ukraine, is like being a child in the adult world...

man’s natural state is one of ignorance...
all men are born naive
but experience and learning
shall make them wise

so choose the path of experience and learning and see where it takes you...

I have a “vision"

what I see is that you should use your engineering talents to start a small company in Ukraine
Kyiv would actually be a better location because of transportation, shipping issues
you will enjoy teaching your employees all the things you know
and have good relationships with them
and you will end up sleeping with and marrying one of your employees
a beautiful woman with long dark hair and a VERY kind sweet face...

no, I’m not joking...
TOTALLY what I saw in the “vision”!!!

all right, if you don’t wanna BELIEVE it, fine...



scarface, please pause for a second...
it's not gonna help ya taking this kinda defensive posture with folks, especially here...
I personally am one of the most brutal MFers on this board
I got a skin thicker than a T-70 tank with upgraded applique armor
so do most of the guys with Russian, Ukrainian experience
it comes with the territory...
I know you're a new kid, so I'm just 'splaining stuff to ya, OK?
cuz if ya wanna hang out with this crowd
ya can't say to 'em, "gee fellas why ya gotta say cuss words all the time"..
ya see what I mean by this?
AND homeboy, if you gonna go to Ukraine...
you better be a TOTAL badass!
ya feel me?

NEVER ask for mercy from anyone in Ukraine
instead you fight them back and WIN EVERY TIME!!!
horrosho?

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: GQBlues on September 27, 2019, 09:50:38 AM
You know it is really sad how there is this incessant need to attack and to shame. These two previous posts are good examples.

What a miserable life you must have to be this angry that you must go on a forum and attack someone because you don't agree with them. Are you that unconscious?  Do you think that no one on here sees you?

If anyone I am the one that should be angry. But you don't see me acting petulant and nasty.

I thought there was some sort of code of conduct on this forum? Is that just a formality?

Not sure if this post is directed at me, but if so you've been leashed via PM. Don't be so arrogant as to assume my post was directed in anyway to YOU.

I was pointing the fact when someone follows what their instinct drive them to, more times than not, it will not fail them as jone in his experience made clear to that point.

Petulance and nastiness obviously have a different residency than assumed. You are definitely deficit in your sense of awareness.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Boethius on September 27, 2019, 10:02:37 AM
Then I found her marriage status and it showed her as single never been married not divorced. This was another fact she had never told me. And we talked about her "ex-husband" as well as my ex-wife in our many many hours of personal conversations.

I wouldn't put too much stock into this.  She may have been in a long term relationship with a man, and considered him her husband.  I wouldn't consider this a lie.

Quote
Then I also noticed she has now visited the site where we first met.

Given what's transpired, do you think this is unreasonable?

Quote
But right now her actions are looking pretty bad. And I must say pretty sophisticated. Do I think she cared for me? Yes. Our conversations, her interest in my personal health family business and other small things show this. But I also think she was trying to get what she could. Which is deeply troubling.

They have learned a lot, and WM taught them that.   Why wouldn't their attempts to obtain money not be sophisticated?

Quote
I am of course going to give her a chance to explain or make some attempt to meet me halfway on this. But I am not going to go on as I did before. She has some explaining to do. I will try to ask her carefully but I will need some answers.

If you truly need to know, then hire a translator.  There is a poster here, Stirlitz, who does translation work.  A lot can be lost in translation, and the FSU mindset is to always take the most negative interpretation possible.

Quote
A relationship is a two-way street and just like I have been told many times Russian women respect a man who does not let them run over them.

Yeah, yeah.  I've read that.  But I don't believe it.  Every week, when I go grocery shopping, I hear FSUW berating their husbands as if the latter were dogs, or, if the women are kind, children.  It's actually rather shocking to me.

Quote
My mistake was going into this too quickly and without enough visits and time with the family. That's on me. Some people said I was desperate. I don't think so. A desperate person would not question these things, a desperate person would not walk away. I could have easily given her the money and did nothing else and went on about my merry way thinking everything was fine. Mistakes yes desperate no.

The mistake is in treating this differently than you would a relationship with an AW.  You wouldn't give an AW a monthly allowance.  You probably wouldn't get engaged to an AW after two weeks together, although I personally don't have an issue with quick marriages.

I disagree with krimster.  Don't change who you are at your core.  It always leads to failure.



This post was composed without the aid of google. 
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Gator on September 27, 2019, 11:00:25 AM
You know it is really sad how there is this incessant need to attack and to shame. These two previous posts are good examples......criticism.....criticism


Scarface,
 
If a couple of posts offend you in how they presented their opinions (all of us here are different), FSUW probably are not for you. 

I generalize from my sampling.  If you are lucky enough to be a FSUW's "man," they can  be very direct, certainly not diplomatic, and sometimes hostile.  I. e., they are strong women, having survived in a world more difficult than in America.     

I found their directness different from AW, yet had some benefits.  I knew where I stood.   I knew what's on her mind, even if it was inexplicable.  And sometimes  ;D  I knew what to do next.

Not to worry,

          1.  They soon return to the woman of your dreams.
          2.  In a year or two they learn how to be more diplomatic in resolving conflicts.   

You may not have been with your FSUW long enough for this to manifest itself.    If they are only interested in knowing more about you, or if they are using you, they will be sweet. 
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Gator on September 27, 2019, 11:25:30 AM
Jone, thanks for sharing your story.  Well written, and more important, well thought out.  You were wise to terminate it before marriage, even after your investment of time, emotion, and money (the least important of the three).  It is too easy to keep going, hoping things will somehow get better.  Best to listen to those inner voices saying,  "Something ain't right." 

Two points about my woman that helped to make marriage work.   

      1.  She was a challenge - she did not want to leave Russia.  She had led a good life with plenty of attention from RM.  It took years of ups and downs. 

      2.  She is Cossack.  The crusty JB, a wise warrior who had traveled all over Russia,   told me Cossack women were known for their loyalty.  Loyal to their man, their family, their friends, their country.   
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on September 27, 2019, 11:36:20 AM
the intended purpose of this board may be one thing
but it’s function in reality is something else...

the true function of this board seems to be
to have a robot demolition derby
but use a buncha middle aged men instead of robots...
cheaper...

so we are but simple gladiators pitted against one another
in this arena of anger...

we’re all just a bunch of old men raging against one another
though wise men at their end, know the dark is right
see with blinding sight and learn, too late
here on these sad heights
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: BillyB on September 27, 2019, 11:41:08 AM
Then I also noticed she has now visited the site where we first met.


Earlier in this thread you mentioned she never lied to you and you checked up on her and she's not on any sites. Scammers, gold diggers, and green card girls like to be on lots of sites in hopes to attract as much men as possible. Your fiancée did not behave like them.

Now you feel she lied to you. Your fiancée suspects the relationship lacks trust and now having doubts spending her life with you and now looking for options. If she were truly a gold digger, she'd squeeze as much out of you as possible and say she must quit her job to prepare for a life with you so she needs a monthly allowance. I don't feel she's trying to bleed you dry asking for money to keep alive a business that gives her a job to support herself. She needs $950. Maybe I missed it but is that the total amount she needs to keep the rent paid for awhile or she needs that monthly?
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: jone on September 27, 2019, 11:50:33 AM
Jone,

What an amazing story. It is proof that you did your due diligence and saved yourself from a lifetime of misery if you had married her.

Maybe Krimster is right. You have to look at this as a fun adventure and not take it too seriously.

Do your due diligence and then after quality time together and learning about her family and friends then make a decision on what you should do.

Yeah.   Shoulda seen the pictures.   This gal was/is a ten on anyone's chart of beauty.    At least skin deep.

However, in the time that it took to write this response to you, another woman just walked by.   If your woman is NOT the woman for you, I can assure you, another one is there waiting.   To find her will probably take you at least sixty seconds.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Gator on September 27, 2019, 11:58:23 AM

we’re all just a bunch of old men raging against one another
though wise men at their end, know the dark is right
see with blinding sight and learn, too late
here on these sad heights

This seeing the light  better happen soon as I don't have much time left.  I am old enough to have seen Hank Williams, who sung  he saw the light but did not live as if he did.   

I went through a near-death experience, and didn't "see" anything.  I didn't see the light when the preacher pushed my young body under the water. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtolv9kM1qk

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on September 27, 2019, 02:08:48 PM
sounds like you came into the house with your shoes on, thinking that your wife wasn't home, but OOPS! she was!
and your ass got busted the way a watermelon would falling off the empire state building
or...
you just had a major health issue?

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Gator on September 27, 2019, 03:23:49 PM
sounds like you came into the house with your shoes on, thinking that your wife wasn't home

 :ROFL:

Never would happen.  I am reminded by a sign the Gestapo taped on the door

               "CLEAN SHOES.  CLEAN HANDS"   

Yes, for now I am one of those rare people allowed to wear my shoes inside provided I use the shoe scraper positioned there.
 
Quote
you just had a major health issue? 

Not yet.  Instead hit by a car with  two subsequent blows to my head before a third from a face plant on the pavement.   Unconscious for a long time.  Witnesses say it looked bad, really bad, as in "We need a Priest."  I guess it went too fast  to see the light.  My last memory was an onrushing car, no light.  If I had never awakened, there would have been no light. 

A friend entered a coma from sepsis and cascading organ failure, and returned to consciousness three  days later.  He said he had no memory of drifting away, and there was no "light."
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Boethius on September 27, 2019, 03:33:34 PM
I understand the traditional communist mentality does not believe in planning for the future.

No, it was the uncertainty of the post communist world that taught them that.  The rubles many had accumulated became worthless overnight.

Quote
Additionally many people are becoming like the child that you tell them you can have an expired piece of chocolate cake now, or a fresh bigger cake tomorrow, and the child will take the expired cake today.  Why are women like this?  Why do we continue to see these stories yet we dont see any new marriages?  On the other forum I was reading about a 38 year old from the US with a six figure USD income and he was asked to spend money on a phone and groceries totaling $200 and all sorts of crap but no long term plans.  why would a Ukrainian woman pass up a reasonable 38 year old American with a six figure income?

Because she is not attracted to him. 

It's not particularly difficult for a well educated Ukrainian to move abroad on their own.  I see a significant number of young Ukrainian families here.  They all came as family units, or the husband was a temporary foreign worker, and moved his family here once he obtained permanent resident status.

Quote
The average salary is what $300 per month in Ukraine, but we dont see any more marriages.  On the other forum the guy was told to go seek therapy.  Very kind of the admin.  So what's really happening?  I understand nobody wants to marry their grandfather, but this guy was 38.

His attitude sucked.

The average salary in Ukraine is US$454.  That means that half of Ukrainians make more than this, half less. Furthermore, that is an "official" salary. 

This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on September 27, 2019, 03:34:50 PM
well I hope you told your wife to be more careful driving!!!
does your life insurance have double indemnity for accidental death or something....
I'd keep all those details away from your wife if I were you

so now we now know why ole gator acts the way he does, at long last causality!
he smashed in the hood of some poor guys Toyota with his HEAD while doing a Karate demonstration!

everyone in my neighborhood would say, ummm ummmm I ain't gonna mess wit dat white boy!


"Yes, for now I am one of those rare people allowed to wear my shoes inside"

an honor which has not yet been bestowed upon me
I have only distant memories of household shoe wearing from before my marriage to a Russian village girl...

OTOH, at one time I had 3 Russian women in my household, now down to 2 and one part time...
so I live pretty much a gentleman's life, with "eggs and soldiers" and toast in the morning with Jamaican coffee on the back patio overlooking the garden...
served to me, shortly after I'm seated...
IMHO, lack of shoes is a reasonable trade-off in order to have this gentleman's lifestyle...
I save an immense amount on catering, cleaning, etc, by just having my Russians do it!!!

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: msmob on September 27, 2019, 03:48:33 PM
Not sure if this post is directed at me, but if so you've been leashed via PM.

PM as in personal messages?

I thought you told us that you didn't use this medium to gossip?.....



Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: GQBlues on September 27, 2019, 05:52:04 PM
PM as in personal messages?

I thought you told us that you didn't use this medium to gossip?.....

“..told us..” as in me saying any the above to everyone which includes ‘you’?

Again, quote me where I said anything of the kind, and more importantly, the inclusion of ‘your irrelevant self’. If you cannot, then by now you should know what equals ‘FAIL’ with ‘you’, right?

I will not be surprise however if it came to light you’ve PM the OP, considering the money talk in his thread, that you’ve proclaimed yourself as a matchmaker. :devil:
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: BillyB on September 27, 2019, 10:44:57 PM

I re-read the first post to get a better understanding about the $950

1) Your fiancée told you about problems at her work. You then recommended she quit and join her friend's practice.

2) Friend needs $950 for rent if your fiancée wants in.

3) You give your fiancée $950

4) The business makes money and she doesn't need anymore of your money to operate it.

5) Friend is pregnant and will leave. She needs $950 to cover for friend's half when she leaves or needs to find a new partner to contribute $950.

6) You come to the forum and ask if you should send the second $950

It seems to me the $950 is more than just paying rent on the space used. Let's say the friend was running a beauty salon. She then accepts a partner, your fiancée. Instead of telling your fiancée to make a large payment that covers half of all the equipment she previously bought to run the business, she asks for $950 per month to be equal partners. $950 a month buy in to be partners in a business seems reasonable.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on September 28, 2019, 02:09:21 AM
well, if scarface still wants to pursue the investigation further....
it WOULD be a great convenience to the forensic accounting detectives
to put into a table in chronological order
the various times he's given her cash or presents

Date     Amount      Purpose


always follow the money...
it leads you to the answer EVERY time

however, IMHO, what we've discussed so far should have produced some ANXIETY in Mr Scarface
so WE should give him some space,
he has to do the ONE THING I hated to do in Ukraine or Russia
and that is to say goodby to a woman
even to the one who betrayed me
and nearly got me killed
I had feeling for them and sadness when I parted.....

but brother, after a suitable grieving period
don't be a wussy BOY
get back in the saddle
and ride like the wind next time

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Trenchcoat on September 28, 2019, 04:30:23 AM
When I was in high school there was a school motto that went something like this.  "Give a man fish and feed him for one day, teach a man how to fish and feed him for his lifetime".  I understand the traditional communist mentality does not believe in planning for the future.  Additionally many people are becoming like the child that you tell them you can have an expired piece of chocolate cake now, or a fresh bigger cake tomorrow, and the child will take the expired cake today.  Why are women like this?  Why do we continue to see these stories yet we dont see any new marriages?  On the other forum I was reading about a 38 year old from the US with a six figure USD income and he was asked to spend money on a phone and groceries totaling $200 and all sorts of crap but no long term plans.  why would a Ukrainian woman pass up a reasonable 38 year old American with a six figure income?  The average salary is what $300 per month in Ukraine, but we dont see any more marriages.  On the other forum the guy was told to go seek therapy.  Very kind of the admin.  So what's really happening?  I understand nobody wants to marry their grandfather, but this guy was 38.

A good question Omega :)

Its why guys who come across women like you have stated, like Scarface has met need to do a lot of digging, not interogating the girl over the email, messaging, as this is only likely to lead to a downward spiral but to go to where she lives and find out the ins and outs of her real life. Not the life she has told them she lives (which may or may not be true) but the everyday experience of her life, her way of living, family, social life, etc. Jone has already shown how invaluable this can be.

When I brought up about the Kherson girl I met in Kiev on here who turned out to be materialistic and manipulative some guys on here gave me a bashing as they have done with Scarface, but I percevered, I wanted to learn, so,e of what Forum members told me was true some was not on further investigation but could have been.

I knew from my experience that it was not a simply 'I got scammed' situation, that there was more to it than this. I learnt a lot over the proceeding couple of years since, I learnt that she was unlikely a scammer but a materialistic women that local men too likely find too difficult to date. I would have liked to have gone to Kherson to get a better picture of it all but our online messaging deteriorated and she in any case was refusing to see me before she visited me first.

I believe that there is a whole crowd of girls in the FSU that fall into a difficult category and that we need to explore and understand that category of women better if we are to grow and understand FSW Internationl dating scene better. Before I brought up about the Kherson girl and really went into it a lot with forum menbers here for which I took a battering there was little understanding of such women on here. They just got written off as bad girls, scammers, etc. but our discussions on here revelved over time there was more to it than that. We pooled our minds and learnt a lot from it I think.

Now Scarface has come up with a girl and its great of him to come forward about his experiences with her as it is another great learning opportunity for this forum and indeed himself if he chooses to do so. I find nothing more enlightening than lifting the fog around us and seeing what we are dealing with, then we can work with the situation from a position of knowledge and understanding which is a far more confident place to be.

The example you brought up is a good one Omega, why does such a girl go for the coupon money off discounts I call it when she could be vastly better off by getting with the guy - he's 38, earns a very good salary and comes with US citizenship. In Ukraine girls tend to look at wealth very favourably as its not something to be scoffed at there where living can be tough.

I think part of the anser is that its a game to such girls who lose sight that they are overlooking a much bigger prize. They are used to using the same old tricks to get the small gains and many are oblivious to the big prize at stake. They have turned out that way as that is the local environment they exist in. Some even call it a part of the dating encionment out there, that they would probably think of themselves as a mug if they didn't try to hit a guy with something. Not all girls do this of course, many can be very straight up.

There is also the aspect that a lot of UW are oblivious of what life is like in the west, somewhere like the UK or US. The first girl I met in Kiev had no idea that Theatre tickets cost alot more in the west that in Ukraine. I am not into theatre but went as she was and its part of the cuilture out there, out there good theatre tickets can be had for around £8-20 each, here in London it more like tentimes that amount. The Kherson girl had no idea that there is a more equal sharing of costs in the west, the 'go dutch' way.

So verall I think there is still more to learn about such women, I just don't think a lot of these women are deliberate scammers, some are and I don't think Scarface's woman played nicely with him. I think there is a particular way of playing these women and a lot of WM including myself have stuffed up and made bad mistakes and not played them how they should have been played.   
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on September 28, 2019, 07:02:44 AM
some good points Trench...
over time. you'll learn to know the difference between a scammer and someone inexperienced making mistakes
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 28, 2019, 07:19:25 AM
well, if scarface still wants to pursue the investigation further....
it WOULD be a great convenience to the forensic accounting detectives
to put into a table in chronological order
the various times he's given her cash or presents

Date     Amount      Purpose


always follow the money...
it leads you to the answer EVERY time

however, IMHO, what we've discussed so far should have produced some ANXIETY in Mr Scarface
so WE should give him some space,
he has to do the ONE THING I hated to do in Ukraine or Russia
and that is to say goodby to a woman
even to the one who betrayed me
and nearly got me killed
I had feeling for them and sadness when I parted.....

but brother, after a suitable grieving period
don't be a wussy BOY
get back in the saddle
and ride like the wind next time

Good points and good advice I believe. It describes my emotions and feelings having invested myself into this relationship wholeheartedly. And your right the betrayal is the worst part. It is not an easy thing to leave. But I think that is the right move.

Someone commented on her going back onto the dating site repeatedly and only one day after I told her no to the $950. The comment was something like "this is normal given what had transpired." What had transpired? I told her no and she immediately goes and looks for another man? Not an attempt to either contact me or barely respond when I contact her. Is this how you deal with a problem in a relationship?

A wonderful test that my friend told me and I will be using this in the future. Is to see what she does when you say no.

I probably won't use such a big thing as this to say no. But what does she do after you say no? Does she get sick? Does she try to punish you with silence or recrimination? Does she immediately start looking for another relationship or something to escalate the issue into a bigger thing?

The point of getting her back is moot I believe. I cannot maintain a relationship by myself and evidently and unknowingly that is what I have been doing. We had fun together, we enjoyed each other and had very long heartfelt sincere (I thought)  conversations and wonderful physical chemistry. But when it comes to doing vs saying. I was the only one actually doing anything.  I look back on this adventure and I cannot tell you one time where she actually did anything for me. A small gift on my birthday, or cook a meal or make something. Anything. All actions invested in the relationship were by me. This is very telling and a blindspot I missed.

I wonder if I told her I changed my mind and will send her the $950 she would change her attitude?

There was another question about the $950 and it being more than rent and being for other business expenses. I asked her about this. She was adamant that it was only rent and that was the only expense. Which probably leads to another and bigger lie. Even in the most basic self-employed work you have other expenses. And she never mentioned these or seemed to be cognizant of these. I talked about marketing activities to get customers (one of the biggest challenges to any business) and other things and she seemed to not have much to say or be very interested.

All of this indicates to me another and bigger lie. And judging from what I have found out about her business address and the nature of the building. I don't believe there was a business at all. It was probably just where she works.

Time to move on. Going to the beach today. And tomorrow hanging out with my kids. Thanks for all of the advice and information. It was invaluable and a bit painful. lol
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on September 28, 2019, 07:46:11 AM
"A wonderful test that my friend told me and I will be using this in the future. Is to see what she does when you say no."

oh, what a MIGHTY little "pearl of wisdom" that is!!!
HIGHLY impressed that a first timer learned this...
this is WHY I am optimistic about you, while being pessimistic towards so many others who have come here!!!

so what's your next move?
what are your thoughts about the future?
I really hope you don't abandon your quest!!!

on one hand, you've SEEN what's in Ukraine (yummy!)
on the other, you just had your first scammer
but NOW you know the territory MUCH better than you did before!!!

so this experience dramatically increasees your chances for success - NEXT TIME!
don't throw this hard earned experience away, because then it would be a waste
instead of simply being a stepping stone to success

you coulda built a house out of all my stepping stones!!!

chin up!!
foot in the stirrup!
this feelin will pass

and then lo and behold
look what you find!!
anticipate THIS!!!


I have a sense that you're a pretty smart guy
but you have a lot to learn about "living in the jungle" over there
and you just got your first lesson...

the journey is also part of the reward
Ukraine is an amazing place to experience
and you seem like a guy who will be smart enuff to learn all he needs to learn to survive there...
you just need to decide if that's what ya wanna do vrs some other choice...

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Boethius on September 28, 2019, 02:34:54 PM
Someone commented on her going back onto the dating site repeatedly and only one day after I told her no to the $950. The comment was something like "this is normal given what had transpired." What had transpired? I told her no and she immediately goes and looks for another man? Not an attempt to either contact me or barely respond when I contact her. Is this how you deal with a problem in a relationship?

She recognized what you apparently did not.  It wasn't the "No."  It was because you didn't trust her.  She recognized that immediately.  Alternately, you were no longer an attractive mark.  You don't have a relationship, and how could you, after two weeks together??

A woman's shelf life, particularly that of an FSUW in the WM market, is short. 

Or, she may have assumed you will check if she's logged in, and her doing so was a message to you - "Don't assume I am reliant on you.  I'm not."

This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 28, 2019, 02:53:02 PM
This is interesting. You say a woman's shelf life. What does this mean?

You are saying a woman loses interest after 1 day when someone tells her no? This is a pretty cynical view.

How do you know we didn't have a relationship. What is the specific time period of face to face contact before it is a relationship?

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Boethius on September 28, 2019, 03:01:21 PM
You have to live together minimum a year before you know each other, IMHO.  Anyone can put up a facade for a period, but the mask will slip if parties are living together.

IMHO, a relationship exists when you can trust a person with your soul.  You have to know the person, and knowing a person takes time. 

Shelf life  - not evident?  The period during which a woman is still sexually desirable to a man.  In the FSUW market, that period is relatively short.

Also, why were you on the dating site?  Couldn't she make the same pronouncement about you?

This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 28, 2019, 03:08:08 PM
"A wonderful test that my friend told me and I will be using this in the future. Is to see what she does when you say no."

oh, what a MIGHTY little "pearl of wisdom" that is!!!
HIGHLY impressed that a first timer learned this...
this is WHY I am optimistic about you, while being pessimistic towards so many others who have come here!!!

so what's your next move?
what are your thoughts about the future?
I really hope you don't abandon your quest!!!

on one hand, you've SEEN what's in Ukraine (yummy!)
on the other, you just had your first scammer
but NOW you know the territory MUCH better than you did before!!!

so this experience dramatically increasees your chances for success - NEXT TIME!
don't throw this hard earned experience away, because then it would be a waste
instead of simply being a stepping stone to success

you coulda built a house out of all my stepping stones!!!

chin up!!
foot in the stirrup!
this feelin will pass

and then lo and behold
look what you find!!
anticipate THIS!!!


I have a sense that you're a pretty smart guy
but you have a lot to learn about "living in the jungle" over there
and you just got your first lesson...

the journey is also part of the reward
Ukraine is an amazing place to experience
and you seem like a guy who will be smart enuff to learn all he needs to learn to survive there...
you just need to decide if that's what ya wanna do vrs some other choice...

Thanks for the perspective.

It has been a good ride even with all of the lumps along the way.

I will probably get back into it down the road.

I have certainly learned a few things.

I don't know though. Evidently it takes only one slip and one day and then an FSUW is gone. lol
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: jone on September 28, 2019, 03:22:00 PM
Am I correct in understanding that this (former) relationship is no more?  What was the final disposition?   Was there closure or just 'I'm not calling her anymore'?
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 28, 2019, 03:31:46 PM
I have pretty much told everything in the posts yesterday and today.

But according to some, there was no relationship.

From her side, she is not really communicating with me. I am not going to go begging to her.

I wanted to have a mature conversation about it but it takes two people to communicate.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: jone on September 28, 2019, 03:50:40 PM
This is not unusual.   Whether this woman was a scammer (I rather doubt it) or whether she had expectations of 'her man' that she did not see realized, you will probably never know.   Some women have expectations of a man that are not articulated because they are based on him spending and giving money to the woman.  Absent that cash flow, in her mind you are 'greedy' and therefore not acceptable as a spouse.   

In my experience, I have found that the younger they are, the more likely that is to occur.  When I was dating in Russia and Ukraine, I would not think twice about giving the woman money and have her budget our expenses.   It was a good way to ascertain how our future life would be together.   

I have not dated excessively, as I am a WOVO type guy, even though I always had some type of backup plans.  So the object of my affections would know in advance that I would lay some cash on her but that it was her job to budget it for our expenses ... because she knew more than I did about life in Eastern Europe.   But these women are pretty sharp.   In each case, the woman knew that I was testing her and was a good steward of our funds.

The two things that stand out from this endeavor are as follows:

1.  You're travelling thousands of miles for what, essentially, is a blind date.  That is the primary reason guys do the WMVM course.   We have guys on here who swear by it.  Read ML's philosophies and you'll have a good picture of it.

2.  The other thing that stands out is that a woman is giving up EVERYTHING to be with 'her man'.   So you better be able to perform or you will be roadkill before you can say do svidaniya.   

My personal belief is that she had a personal gauge of how her man should perform for her and you did not meet those expectations, whether those expectations were expressed or not, or whether they were fair to you, or not.

As many have alluded to, it is relatively easy to get back on the horse.   The greatest loss of a failed relationship is the time expended on it.    Don't get into the trap of mourning one that didn't work out.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 28, 2019, 04:07:32 PM
This is not unusual.   Whether this woman was a scammer (I rather doubt it) or whether she had expectations of 'her man' that she did not see realized, you will probably never know.   Some women have expectations of a man that are not articulated because they are based on him spending and giving money to the woman.  Absent that cash flow, in her mind you are 'greedy' and therefore not acceptable as a spouse.   

In my experience, I have found that the younger they are, the more likely that is to occur.  When I was dating in Russia and Ukraine, I would not think twice about giving the woman money and have her budget our expenses.   It was a good way to ascertain how our future life would be together.   

I have not dated excessively, as I am a WOVO type guy, even though I always had some type of backup plans.  So the object of my affections would know in advance that I would lay some cash on her but that it was her job to budget it for our expenses ... because she knew more than I did about life in Eastern Europe.   But these women are pretty sharp.   In each case, the woman knew that I was testing her and was a good steward of our funds.

The two things that stand out from this endeavor are as follows:

1.  You're travelling thousands of miles for what, essentially, is a blind date.  That is the primary reason guys do the WMVM course.   We have guys on here who swear by it.  Read ML's philosophies and you'll have a good picture of it.

2.  The other thing that stands out is that a woman is giving up EVERYTHING to be with 'her man'.   So you better be able to perform or you will be roadkill before you can say do svidaniya.   

My personal belief is that she had a personal gauge of how her man should perform for her and you did not meet those expectations, whether those expectations were expressed or not, or whether they were fair to you, or not.

As many have alluded to, it is relatively easy to get back on the horse.   The greatest loss of a failed relationship is the time expended on it.    Don't get into the trap of mourning one that didn't work out.


Thanks Jone

I think the number of lies I have uncovered make her a person of bad character at best and a scammer. Where is the line? I don't know.

You make some interesting comments. How do you do a backup plan? Are you in conversations with other women as you visit the one?

Were you finding them via online? Or some other method?

Also, this idea of giving them an allowance and they are responsible. Does this mean you travel to visit them hand them some money and that is what you both have for the time you are there? How does this work? How far along are you into the relationship before you do this?

I am not quitting. Just have to reassess a little bit.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on September 28, 2019, 04:32:13 PM
my man, listen up!

I've known my wife nearly 20 years!
do you know how many times she's lied to me?
ZERO!!!

catching a lie is a DEAD GIVE AWAY AND A DEAL BREAKER!!!!
even if she was a scammer that was a little bit into you
she's still a scammer


all relationships are based on trust
you can never trust someone who lies to you

the problem is a lot of the sites accessible to you are heavily populated by scammers
so if you go to these places you need to be a top notch scam detector, (and asking for money is 'top 'o the list!)
OR
GO TO DIFFERENT PLACES

I swear to you, if you could draw or sketch, Russian wimmin will be easy picking if you pick a high traffic spot and set up your easel!!





Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 28, 2019, 04:38:29 PM
I agree lying is a deal-breaker and a sure sign of a scammer. No argument there.

What other places do you recommend besides online dating sites? I looked at Mamba but they seemed to be almost fruitless if you don't know Russian.

Where else would you go? Short of setting up a website over there which we talked about.

I am also considering setting up shop living in one of the cities for an extended period of time. But I have to get my business in the right place for that.

As far as sketching I can draw stick figures. But I don't think that will cut it.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on September 28, 2019, 05:22:49 PM
it's a real conundrum!!
but the easily accessible sites, Mamba, fdate, agencies, etc
will ALL be heavily infiltrated by scammers
this is the low hanging fruit, easily accessed, will have the most men trying to climb up because it's the easiest
and the barrier to entry is so very low
but the fruit is sometime bitter here
IMHO, avoid this method



it'd really be just a couple of week project for you to hire someone to do your web site in Russian and vk fanpage
and start immediately collecting hundreds of contacts

seriously, this is the only online way that MOSTLY avoids scammers
alternative is go in person

you would have to develop a pickup style
mine is painting and sketching birds in front of a busy park or market
I get a flock of birds alright!!!

simple sketch from Moscva...
birds in the park
I wasn't tryin to pick up anyone and STILL got hits
when I go "all out" and paint a freakin masterpiece in public I can pull a date within an hour easily!
by just painting and smiling at the women when they come to check out what I'm painting!!

 
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Trenchcoat on September 28, 2019, 06:06:18 PM
Scarface, I don't think you're girl was a professional Scammer. Pro Scammers tend to be on the ask all the time. They will ask the high amounts your girl did but it will tend to be more frequent. I think your girl was a liar though and some of the demands she made were scams even though I don't think was really to be a professional scammer. I think she lost respect for you as time went on as you gave in.

I think your big crucial error though was to stand outside the shops when she went in. This would have told her that you hold in a very derogatory way. This probably made her first lose respect for you and could have alienated her towards you. I would have gone in, as you found our she hit you with the shoes demand anyway so you gained nothing by standing outside except set a bad tone for the relationship. Even if she hit you with a demand in the shop then you could have refused and there is nothing she could do.

I've learnt that giving into a demand from a FSW is almost certainly going to result in the destruction of the relationship and as such is contrary to my interests. The women tend to act worse as time goes on as they lose more respect for you. It's either a case of get the girl straightened out first of all if possible or it's a no go. Whatever bs they come out with it's just not worth giving into her.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Davo on September 28, 2019, 06:23:00 PM
I agree lying is a deal-breaker and a sure sign of a scammer. No argument there.

What other places do you recommend besides online dating sites? I looked at Mamba but they seemed to be almost fruitless if you don't know Russian.

Where else would you go? Short of setting up a website over there which we talked about.

I am also considering setting up shop living in one of the cities for an extended period of time. But I have to get my business in the right place for that.

As far as sketching I can draw stick figures. But I don't think that will cut it.

I pulled the pin with a women from Russia a few months ago, but not because of your issue.  We got on great, she earns good money and always protected my wallet. It took a while for her to open about this.....Her ex and ex in-laws put a lot of pressure on her regarding taking their daughter out of the country and threatened to pull the extra financial support for their children, if she didn’t end it (He makes 100k US). Their son studies at an expensive Uni in Moscow.

I’ve used fdating and dmnotify over the last few years and as long as you’re  realistic regarding their age you will meet very few scammers.... .The ones asking for money before you even meet. A month ago on fdating, I met 5 genuine women (on face value) in a matter of days. If you’ve used POF etc... locally you’ll probably experience just as many scammers.

The problem with cold approaches is you don’t know the language like Krim and just finding a woman who speaks English could be an issue, let alone one willing to leave everything behind and move overseas with a stranger. Saying that it is possible....  I think. It took me up to 5 approaches on several occasions, just to find a woman in the supermarket who could converse with and help me find ingredients.

One women took me by the arm and was pretty flirty, I could see she was interested as she walked with me part way back to
My apartment and another day a woman closed her stall
in an open air market (I was trying to find Russian dolls) and invited me across the street for borscht at her favourite cafe. She was very interested about life in Australia. This might have been just luck and a little to do with being from down under. They seem to have a fascination with OZ. 

So I’m back dating at home now and seeing my first GF who I met after my divorce, casually, but planning another trip next year. I’ve cut contact with the women on fdating atm, and chatting with one women I contacted through friends I met in Russia the last night I was there. I think my friendship with this couple (we chat weekly) is going to be just as promising as online, in regards to  meeting their single female friends and even her single sister has offered to spend some time showing me around Moscow on my next trip.

I’m going to try meet a handful of women, so a few months out I’ll get back on fdating. Search for women between 35 & 43 with children (I have a big house and my kids are starting to leave home) and good English skills.

Good luck with your future endeavours...... but I’d suggest keeping your options open at home also.....occasionally you’ll meet women as exceptional as FSU women locally, despite others issues with dating at home.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 28, 2019, 06:50:41 PM
Interesting point Trench about losing respect. I think this plays into what I was saying about saying no to her early in the interaction as being a necessary test of the possibility of us moving forward.

Davo Thanks for the comments. It is funny but those are the two sites that I have been using so far. And I did meet many good candidates and very few I would consider scammers. Dmnotify actually has a voluntary flag for women that are looking for sponsors and many women use it. It is funny but the flag is an outstretched palm, how ironic. Many of them don't and prefer to stealth it. I eventually culled out several good women for what I thought was one very good candidate. And she ended up being the subject of this thread. Turns out she was just a bit too Wiley for me and I was not perceptive enough.

I am primarily looking in that same age range also. One of the things I noticed about dmnotify was if you found a new girl that seemed cute and promising. I would save her profile and wait about two days before sending her a message. Usually, the scammers would be found out by them and the admin would have sprung them from the site. Saving me the trouble of dealing with a waste of time and effort.

Another thing I did to deal with screening scammers is you could not accuse them of being a scammer or even ask them about it because they would be "offended". So what I would do is first ask them what they thought of the site. They would give their opinion and then ask me what I thought.

I would say it's ok, but there seems to be a lot of women asking me to send them money. They would either not comment or they would say they were ashamed to hear their fellow countrymen doing such awful things and that it was an embarrassment. (my girl, by the way, put her hand on her forehead in amazement and said ufff "I cannot believe these women" lol) I would also laugh and say I can't imagine a woman would think I would send her money. If they were gone after that it was a good indicator. Did not always work but it helped.

Some still ask for money anyway. Sick this sick that, I am not a real man if I don't send her money, why would she want to date me if I cannot send her money.

Like I said it did not always work.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: BillyB on September 28, 2019, 06:58:43 PM
I think the number of lies I have uncovered make her a person of bad character at best and a scammer. Where is the line? I don't know.


She's a sweet educated Ukrainian woman.

She never told you a lie.

You've built a strong relationship with her and made her your fiancée.

She's a wonderfully pleasant and interesting woman.

She's very traditional and respect men and women's roles.

She always talks about family and is family oriented.

She never says a bad word about anyone.

All this time I've been giving you advice on how to handle this woman based on what you said of her above. She's a wonderful woman that you want as your wife. Now you rule she's a bad person/scammer. Did she change overnight? Of course not. She never changed. You either failed to read her correctly in the past and/or you're failing to read her correctly now. The bottom line is you failed to read her sometimes or all the time. If you fail to read a person or situation, you impair your ability to judge well and make good decisions. We can't properly help you  if we don't have a good understanding of the type of person you're dealing with.

Someone commented on her going back onto the dating site repeatedly and only one day after I told her no to the $950. The comment was something like "this is normal given what had transpired." What had transpired? I told her no and she immediately goes and looks for another man? Not an attempt to either contact me or barely respond when I contact her. Is this how you deal with a problem in a relationship?


No, she's not looking for a new man over one incident. Relationships usually die slowly based on a number of things. She suspected you being stingy and lack trust from the beginning. Your behavior has always been in question. You question her behavior on how she deals with a problem yet when she asked if you could buy her $40 shoes, you put her in a cab, sent her home, went to your room, made a call to change your plane tickets and flew home next morning cutting your trip and meeting with her short.

She's been turned off by some of your actions and reactions to certain situations and requests. Probably thinks you're stingy and not capable of taking care of a wife and family. And to think, you haven't even introduced the prenup you want her to sign into the equation yet.

A wonderful test that my friend told me and I will be using this in the future. Is to see what she does when you say no.

I probably won't use such a big thing as this to say no. But what does she do after you say no? Does she get sick? Does she try to punish you with silence or recrimination? Does she immediately start looking for another relationship or something to escalate the issue into a bigger thing?


You both are engaged to each other. You both should be past the testing phase. If you are going to test, you should be happy when she tests you. "trust but verify", right? I told guys who said their girl wanted them to buy them $400 shoes to dump the girl. Your girl wanted $40 shoes and you've had many good things to say about her. That's why I wasn't concerned. Also, if she were a scammer, she'd go for big dollar items, not $40 shoes.

I was the only one actually doing anything.  I look back on this adventure and I cannot tell you one time where she actually did anything for me. A small gift on my birthday, or cook a meal or make something. Anything. All actions invested in the relationship were by me. This is very telling and a blindspot I missed.


You want her to cook a meal for you but on the second meeting you invited her to a romantic vacation in Europe. If you want a homecooked meal, you certainly didn't increase your chances to get that so you shouldn't be complaining. You don't remember her doing one thing for you but I remember. She made out with you lots of times. She gave you mind blowing amazing sex. She lost income when she took time off work for both your meetings. She dresses to the nines everywhere she goes with you. It takes her a lot of time to make sure you got eye candy on your arm everywhere you go. She spends 5 days a week skyping with you. After your second meeting, when you two do talk, it's about what you both want to do  to each other sexually. Doesn't that float your boat? She was ready to leave her friends, family, and life behind to be your wife. But your final conclusion of her is that she's done nothing for you and has bad character.

I wonder if I told her I changed my mind and will send her the $950 she would change her attitude?


An immature man would ask that question. Remember, it was you who recommended she quit her job and partner up with her friend which it takes money to do. Women over there want to see how their men think. Their MAN is supposed to come up with solutions and make the right decisions. You made a decision that she should get into the business with her friend. The move to get involved in a business only strengthens the reasons she needs to stay in Ukraine. What you should have recommended is a solution that prepares her for a life with you by cutting ties and commitments she has with anyone or anything.

There was another question about the $950 and it being more than rent and being for other business expenses. I asked her about this. She was adamant that it was only rent and that was the only expense. Which probably leads to another and bigger lie. Even in the most basic self-employed work you have other expenses. And she never mentioned these or seemed to be cognizant of these. I talked about marketing activities to get customers (one of the biggest challenges to any business) and other things and she seemed to not have much to say or be very interested.


I own a business and if anyone wants me to make them an equal partner, they need to be paying more than half the rent if they want half the profits. They would need to invest enough money to pay for half the assets I've already paid for or make large monthly payments higher than the cost of rent.

When I wrote about my dating experiences which led to meeting my wife, I described my wife in detail here. Her behavior with me was exactly of a family oriented person. But some people thought she was using me and would never marry me. After she agreed to marry me, some people thought she was a green card girl and will leave me after coming to America. When that did happen, they predicted she will leave when she gets citizenship. Then they predicted she will leave after she brings her mom to America. All that has happened since I got married to her in 2011 and she's hasn't left yet. I gave everybody here an honest and accurate account of her behavior which is the behavior of a good person and some people thought she was a bad person. Those people have a poor understanding of who is good and bad.  Your accounts of your fiancée's behavior and character are inconsistent. She's never changed who she was. You may be throwing away a good or bad woman. I don't know but I do know if you continue to fail at getting a good read on people, you will greatly increase your chances for more failed relationships.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 28, 2019, 07:16:05 PM
Well, I can't deal with all of the inaccuracies and assumptions you have made. As I discovered her lying and deception are what changed my opinion.

I trusted her and she betrayed that trust.

I can only give you a good read on what I know. That changed when I learned more details about her lying and deception.

What I thought I had and what I actually had was one of the reasons for starting this thread. And through the input of many people on here, I did learn some things.

But it is not so cut an dried like you want to pronounce it to be.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: JayH on September 28, 2019, 07:34:39 PM
Well, I can't deal with all of the inaccuracies and assumptions you have made. As I discovered her lying and deception are what changed my opinion.

I trusted her and she betrayed that trust.

I can only give you a good read on what I know. That changed when I learned more details about her lying and deception.

What I thought I had and what I actually had was one of the reasons for starting this thread. And through the input of many people on here, I did learn some things.

But it is not so cut an dried like you want to pronounce it to be.

Scar---    if you read forum you will see I have no problem in expressing my own views -- and in the case of BillyB I have pretty much called him everything under the sun -- except sensible !
Well --that day has come -BillyB post above and throughout this thread has gone into detail ( obviously with some thought and effort) and are very sensible posts .
He raises real potential issues for her -particularly re her business etc --issues that anyone in a business themselves would think of.
I asked earlier how important $10K  is to you -- it seems very very important. Your whole exercise will have barely cost you that -- and as BillyB rightly points out -- fact is you got hung up over a $40 pair of shoes.It makes no sense.

It seems the thread came after you had ditched her and you wanted vindication and applause.
This is def a case where I would love to hear what she has to say ! You never know !  :)
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 28, 2019, 07:44:52 PM
Jay you have it all wrong. I never have until this day ditched her. She is the one that stopped talking to me. After a few attempts on my part.

She is the one that told me that everything is fine and then went on a dating site repeatedly.

Many of the things that Billy said are factually incorrect. And both of you seem to completely ignore her many lies and deceptions.

And as I said ad nausem it is not the money it is the trust and the lying.

I never looked for vindication and applause in fact the title of my thread was "Did I screw up?"

And the $40 pair of shoes I know I messed up on that I said so in the very first post.

You will also notice that as I looked into this further and I cannot be certain I do not believe she has a business at all. That was a scam to extract money from me.

I explained this also.

I would also love to hear what she has to say. But how am I supposed to find that out? What do you suggest I do? Force her to respond to my texts and calls?
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: BillyB on September 28, 2019, 08:01:36 PM
Well, I can't deal with all of the inaccuracies and assumptions you have made. As I discovered her lying and deception are what changed my opinion.


Everything I said about your fiancée and your actions are based off what you wrote. Most of the praise you had for her was in post #1. Any inaccuracies and assumptions would be yours, not mine.


I can only give you a good read on what I know. That changed when I learned more details about her lying and deception.


Okay, lets go over some of the new revelations based off your detective work.

Next, I want to say that I have discovered a few other things since my initial post. And it does shed more light on the entire situation. When I started to hear actual facts about things like health care costs and office rent costs. I then become even more suspicious and of course, I then started to pull on this thread. I looked at her K1 application much more closely and saw a few other things.

It had her place of work address and I found this and it is not in the city center and it is not a very nice office building. In fact, it is not an office building at all. Although it may have office space inside. Anyone looking at this building would not pay $1900 for a single office or even $900, maybe $300. So this is another fact.

In many instances, buildings in the FSU look run down outside and in the hallways but inside apartments and offices, it's looking very nice and upscale. If you haven't been in your fiancee's office and evaluated it's size and value, you can't say she's lying. Also, not all office buildings are 100% office buildings. Even in America we have mixed use buildings where stores are at street level and apartments are above.

Then I found her marriage status and it showed her as single never been married not divorced. This was another fact she had never told me. And we talked about her "ex-husband" as well as my ex-wife in our many many hours of personal conversations.

She may have never been married on paper and told the truth on the k-1 documents but she also may have had a man she lived with long term she considered her husband. You think she was sweating and hoping you wouldn't read the k-1 paperwork she filled out because you'd catch her in a deal breaker lie? I don't think so. This isn't a big deal but you're making it out to be one.

Then I also noticed she has now visited the site where we first met.

Earlier in this thread you said the trust issues are all yours. Some women don't have the patience for that and wouldn't have lasted as long as your fiancée. Another good thing about her is she has tolerance.

You will also notice that as I looked into this further and I cannot be certain I do not believe she has a business at all. That was a scam to extract money from me.


You are not certain but you continue to believe she doesn't have a business and she scammed you for money. Remember, it was you who told her to quit her job and enter into business with her friend. In a court of law, if a witness is not certain, a jury will not value the testimony of the events as they describe it. If I ever have to accuse my wife of lying to me, I better be certain instead of making false accusations. Making false accusations ruins the relationship and your relationship is ruined at this moment.

I would also love to hear what she has to say. But how am I supposed to find that out? What do you suggest I do? Force her to respond to my texts and calls?


Why would you want to hear what a person of bad character/scammer has to say? Why would she want to speak to a person that thinks she's of bad character and stealing money? As a child, I remember losing at an arcade game. It said "Game Over"
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Boethius on September 28, 2019, 08:20:12 PM
I would also love to hear what she has to say. But how am I supposed to find that out? What do you suggest I do? Force her to respond to my texts and calls?

You could send her a link to this thread.  If her English skills are half decent, she may give her side of the story.  It wouldn't be the first time that's happened here.  The interesting thing is, when the woman appears and lays out her perception of what occurred, her story is 180 degrees from his.

This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 28, 2019, 08:40:01 PM
Everything I said about your fiancée and your actions are based off what you wrote. Most of the praise you had for her was in post #1. Any inaccuracies and assumptions would be yours, not mine.


Okay, lets go over some of the new revelations based off your detective work.

Next, I want to say that I have discovered a few other things since my initial post. And it does shed more light on the entire situation. When I started to hear actual facts about things like health care costs and office rent costs. I then become even more suspicious and of course, I then started to pull on this thread. I looked at her K1 application much more closely and saw a few other things.

It had her place of work address and I found this and it is not in the city center and it is not a very nice office building. In fact, it is not an office building at all. Although it may have office space inside. Anyone looking at this building would not pay $1900 for a single office or even $900, maybe $300. So this is another fact.

In many instances, buildings in the FSU look run down outside and in the hallways but inside apartments and offices, it's looking very nice and upscale. If you haven't been in your fiancee's office and evaluated it's size and value, you can't say she's lying. Also, not all office buildings are 100% office buildings. Even in America we have mixed use buildings where stores are at street level and apartments are above.

Then I found her marriage status and it showed her as single never been married not divorced. This was another fact she had never told me. And we talked about her "ex-husband" as well as my ex-wife in our many many hours of personal conversations.

She may have never been married on paper and told the truth on the k-1 documents but she also may have had a man she lived with long term she considered her husband. You think she was sweating and hoping you wouldn't read the k-1 paperwork she filled out because you'd catch her in a deal breaker lie? I don't think so. This isn't a big deal but you're making it out to be one.

Then I also noticed she has now visited the site where we first met.

Earlier in this thread you said the trust issues are all yours. Some women don't have the patience for that and wouldn't have lasted as long as your fiancée. Another good thing about her is she has tolerance.

You are not certain but you continue to believe she doesn't have a business and she scammed you for money. Remember, it was you who told her to quit her job and enter into business with her friend. In a court of law, if a witness is not certain, a jury will not value the testimony of the events as they describe it. If I ever have to accuse my wife of lying to me, I better be certain instead of making false accusations. Making false accusations ruins the relationship and your relationship is ruined at this moment.

Why would you want to hear what a person of bad character/scammer has to say? Why would she want to speak to a person that thinks she's of bad character and stealing money? As a child, I remember losing at an arcade game. It said "Game Over"

All the inaccuracies and assumptions are mine? Because you have a perfect read on this or you didn't its all my fault?

Your treat this like it is some kind of inquisition and you are an attorney in a court of law. You so much as say so. But it is not. It is an incredibly complex situation between two individuals and you think you can boil everything down to your assumptions and conjecture.

I am not going to give you more details about the building in the interest of her anonymity but I can assure you it is not a nice office building.

And I have good reason to believe to she was never in business. And if on the outside chance this building housed some Class A office space which it does not and it certainly would be the last place you would put it. Or are you an expert at commercial real estate in Ukraine about a building you have not seen. Or know nothing of.

We talked about her ex-husband and my ex-wife and our divorces and when she divorced. She told me this I did not question it.

The issue about you making up what she had the patience for. There was never any indication other than the first disagreement about the shoes that there was a problem between us. So no history here to go on. Just your vivid distorted imagination.

You have no idea about my trust issues and what she had the patience for so you are making this up. Me saying I have trust issues is not indicative of my actions. Once again your senility and personal malice get in the way.

Your incessant use of the word may have on this and may have on that indicates clearly that you are full of conjecture and again have an agenda. A common tactic by the media when they want to smear someone and they are just guessing. Pigs may fly also. See how easy that is?

Then you have the leap of logic to start talking about the law talking about false accusations. It takes a real mental gymnast to follow your twisted logic. I never accused her of anything even going back to the original shoe incident. However, you seem happy to accuse me of all kinds of things. All I did is say I was not going to give her the money.

I never told her to quit her job. Another thing you have made up. She was complaining about her job and her boss harassing her and in an attempt to help her I suggested maybe she could work with her friend. The next thing I knew she moved in with her friend and was asking me for money for the first month's rent which I gave her. This was completely her decision. But in your twisted angry mind I told her to quit her job from 8000 miles away and she dutifully did my bidding. Even though she had lost patience with me.


Then you finish for somehow making the leap that her lack of desire to talk to me just because I told her no is also my fault because once again in your crazy word I accused her of being of bad character and a scammer. Which I have never so much as indicated to her. But you, of course, know that I did this.

Do you have any grasp on reality? What color is the sky in your world?
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: ML on September 28, 2019, 08:43:08 PM
The interesting thing is, when the woman appears and lays out her perception of what occurred, her story is 180 degrees from his.


I have never heard of such a thing !!
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on September 28, 2019, 09:45:15 PM
children...
I think the problem is NOT with Scarface...
but in Scarface's narrative!

ScarFace is the the victim of a woman who manipulated him purely for her own self interest
so as a result, he will present his case from an emotional injury perspective (which it is, I know exactly how it feels myself and I'm sure I'm not alone on this board with that feeling)
however, the emotional narrative is difficult to process
because it's not a simple easy to follow sequence of lies, extortion, and manipulation
but if you read the story it's there, it's just requires a lot of digging AND processing!!!


scarface...
you've already been coming down from a bum trip..
so it's a shame these folks dnn't show a little empathy to a fellow traveler on life's highway
and stop laying their negative vibes on him, ya'll think he needs that right now?
REMEMBER, the ONLY person's whose OPINION is TRULY important is YOURS


my advice to ya...
after ya thought about it....

from most concerning to least concerning
write down what were the most concerning "RED FLAGS"
then as an exercise, think to yourself...
would you be able to recognize these red flags at an earlier stage next time?

and that's ALL ya REALLY gotta worry about...
these other folks, be trippin man...
above all, to thine own self be true
and let this light inside ALWAYS guide you
now you know where the light switch is
so you WON'T BE IN THE DARK NEXT TIME!!




Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: BillyB on September 28, 2019, 09:46:54 PM
Then you finish for somehow making the leap that her lack of desire to talk to me just because I told her no is also my fault because once again in your crazy word I accused her of being of bad character and a scammer. Which I have never so much as indicated to her. But you, of course, know that I did this.


At this point, it triggers my trust issues and I ask a few questions. She answers them but she is watching my face on skype and she is very perceptive. She knows my communication and my face very well.


Yes, you indicated she is of bad character and using you for money based off the questions you ask and facial expressions.

And I have good reason to believe to she was never in business. And if on the outside chance this building housed some Class A office space which it does not and it certainly would be the last place you would put it. Or are you an expert at commercial real estate in Ukraine about a building you have not seen. Or know nothing of.


I've been to the FSU over a dozen times. Sometimes my dates would take me into a run down building and in the basement there is a very nice restaurant. But you seem sure nice office space in ugly buildings aren't possible and is willing to let it affect your engagement and everything you built with the woman. Your engagement has successfully been affected. You should be happy that you dodged a bullet/gold digger and...………

I would also love to hear what she has to say. But how am I supposed to find that out? What do you suggest I do? Force her to respond to my texts and calls?


……..you shouldn't be eager to communicate with that woman again. Like you, she's seen enough and seems to have moved on instead of behaving like a scammer hanging on to you as long as possible hoping to get more money and trips around the world.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 28, 2019, 10:12:01 PM
Just making shit up as you go.

So now you know what my facial expressions were. lol

I think its time for your medication now.

And I need some commercial real estate advice from you also. Because you seem to know a lot about Class A office space. lol

Are you that hateful that you have to go to these lengths to make shit up?
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: BC on September 29, 2019, 03:28:02 AM
scarface816,

around here, ask a question and you'll get a million answers from a bunch of unknown folks on the net that may or not be whom they represent.  IOW you'll get some good from folks with experience, some bad, some purely speculative answers from folks with no experience whatsoever, and yes some that might sound downright mean.

Welcome to the realm of internet fora ;)

Consider all responses, discard any you believe are not helpful to your quest and 'report to mod' posts you feel are unwarranted attacks that have little or nothing to do with the subject matter at hand.  I'm pretty sure reports get looked at and action is taken if deemed necessary.  Don't expect a hearing or trial though..  It's mainly a self-moderated forum.

Above all, never, ever take anything personally you see written here.  You do not know these folks and they do not know you... absolutely nothing is 'personal' on this board.

Some sage advice I heard somewhere: 'Don't let anything or anyone occupy space in your head that ain't paying rent'.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 29, 2019, 05:10:54 AM
So true. lol
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on September 29, 2019, 06:42:34 AM
in the case of mousier ScarFace,

I would rather be a physician diagnosing the patient’s condition
than one of the clowns who ridicules his pain...
but each of us will of course choose the profession we are most in touch with...

mon ami,

ze jungle can be a dangerous place for outsiders, who don't KNOW about the jungle
but there are good reasons why you should want to go and explore there
and I think you know only SOME of the reasons...
there are many more you don’t YET know...
and I will leave this as a mystery for you to contemplate...

but...
we need some better non emotional “structured" way to explain these kind of situations, because your narrative was a bit hard for me and some of the others to follow...
hey, I’m not your expository writing teacher checking off points, but...
IMHO, a lot of the negativity you were getting may have been due to the confusing narrative, and not the details themselves, I mean I like nonlinear story-telling as much as... uh actually, I don’t REALLY like nonlinear story telling!

need some kinda Scam Markup Language
<scam>
</scam>

I mean, how do you express what happened to you in all its completeness as succinctly as possible, and show how this snowballed...

my suggestion:

<lies>
</lies>
In this section, put all her lies to you

<family>
</family>
In this section put all your family interaction with her

<money>
</money>
In this section put all financial transactions with her

<sex>
well you know...

<verified>
</verified>
in this section, put everything you have verified about her, where she works, lives, etc,
how much of her “story” she presents to you checks out


then after, attach the narrative part
and the scam markup part will help you logically organize your thoughts to create a more effective presentation of them!!

but anyway, yeah, like I toldya up front man, scammer....
but you know what's funny man!!!!
no seriously!!!
you were scammed, but you also WEREN'T SCAMMED!
you got some honey outta the deal, did you not?
uhh huhhhhh...
think how much you'd a spent tryin to get that kinda honey here in the USA...
probably more right?
and on top of that, you also completed your first year at the damned University of Ukraine, and are now graduated up a level
so you can either choose to dropout or continue your education
the choice is yours

hmmmm hmmmmmmm
snap my fingers
do an about face
and now over to VK to chat with moy druzya in the starry Savushkin Ulitsa banda
OMG freakin Russians!!!!
UNBELIEVABLE!!!!


Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: ML on September 29, 2019, 07:49:54 AM
on top of that, you also completed your first year at the University of Ukraine, and are now graduated up a level


Very good observation. 
I like it. 
Should help you if you choose to follow an educated, logical, and well reasoned path forward.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: BillyB on September 29, 2019, 10:11:02 AM


What's the plan? Are you cancelling the k-1 visa or are you still waiting for her to respond back to your texts and calls in hopes the relationship can be salvaged?
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: jone on September 29, 2019, 10:38:07 AM
Very good observation. 
I like it. 
Should help you if you choose to follow an educated, logical, and well reasoned path forward.

ML,

Best paragraph of advice Krimster has given since I've been on the Forum.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on September 29, 2019, 01:35:46 PM
Yes. This was good advice.

All I can do is learn and try not to do the same thing again.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on September 29, 2019, 01:45:43 PM
scarface,

I’d like you to get some perspective on WHY this happened to you...

Ukraine Iystoria

brutal Czarist dictatorship with mass repression
WWI
Bolsheviks
Stalin
Holodomor
Stalin
WWII Hitler
Stalin
Chernobil
collapse of the USSSR
slow collapse of Ukraine

so you see...
Ukraine is a post-apocalyptic society, where some of the survivors have to cannibalize unwary travelers to stay alive....

this is the simple damn truth of it all...

I was once unlearned in the ways of the jungle like you
that did not go away until after I lived over there for about a year

it takes the wear and grind of that amount of daily contact with Ukrainians
for you to develop the ability to “Block BS”
which in Ukraine, comes in unlimited forms

if you don’t have a BS BLOCK
then anything you do with a woman is gonna be Russian roulette
the only question will be how many turns of the cylinder will you get before you die

and there have been guys on this board who’ve pulled the trigger and it went POW!

ya hear me?
Russian Roulette


I will in parting give you one final bit of advice on a different topic

if you’re considering a business in Ukraine
then from a numerical perspective

it doesn’t make sense to sell your expensive time, to a market where labor is cheap
and the people poor
in Ukraine, this makes your product harder more expensive to purchase compared to the USA

what makes sense is producing a product with low cost Ukrainian labor and exporting that to a high value market...

does this concept make sense to you?
so based on your background, if you could hire a group of programmers, what could you create with this group?
or if you could sell your development services as a "packaged team" with you as English speaking interface to customers
for example, what kind of contracts you get for yourself, BUT
you have a team in Ukraine doing 90% of the work?

and 'snap' back to VK, potom ludie





Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: BillyB on September 29, 2019, 01:53:26 PM
All I can do is learn and try not to do the same thing again.


If you want to do this again but differently, you may have to wait almost two years before thinking about getting involved with another international woman. Americans can do only one k-1 within a two year period unless they obtain a waiver. Americans can do only two k-1s in their lifetime unless they obtain a waiver. If you choose to get back in the saddle quickly to finish the education at the University of Ukraine as some here recommend, get an attorney to do the waiver paperwork.

http://www.siam-legal.com/us-visa/how-many-k1-visas-can-i-apply-for/
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: HoundDaddyLee on September 29, 2019, 06:21:00 PM


The average salary in Ukraine is US$454.  That means that half of Ukrainians make more than this, half less. Furthermore, that is an "official" salary. 

This post was composed without the aid of google.


Bo,


I am behind in reading this thread, so if this has been pointed out previously, I apologize. The average salary is not represented by 1/2 below, 1/2 above. That is the median value. The average or mode is the total of all salaries divided by the total individual salaries.


average = (x1 + x2 ... + xn) / n


HDL


This post was composed with the aid of a degree in Computer Science and Mathematics.  :P
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Boethius on September 29, 2019, 07:29:41 PM
Acknowledged.  Now posters should know I don't use google. :)


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: ML on September 29, 2019, 07:39:25 PM

Bo,


I am behind in reading this thread, so if this has been pointed out previously, I apologize. The average salary is not represented by 1/2 below, 1/2 above. That is the median value. The average or mode is the total of all salaries divided by the total individual salaries.


average = (x1 + x2 ... + xn) / n


HDL


This post was composed with the aid of a degree in Computer Science and Mathematics.  :P

Well then you must have missed a course in Statistics.

Mode is not calculated as you indicated, equating it with average.

Mode is the value that appears most often.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on September 29, 2019, 08:01:26 PM
the calculus of Ukraine is all based on a derivative anyway


given the simple ratio between

American male average monthly income
---------------------------------------------------
Ukraine male average monthly income

yields in some regions of the United States a value of > 20

we’ll call this the “Wealth Multiplier Factor” or WMF

The derivative of a function of a real variable measures the sensitivity to change of the function value (output value) with respect to a change in its argument (input value).

my observation is that the WMF IS NOT linear, but exponential
and should not be considered as an isolated output
but instead is the input to the perception of the other person
meaning the greater the WMF value as its INPUT,  the output will be EXPONENTIALLY GREATER than the input
in effect adding a secondary WMF for the person in Ukraine perceiving it!!!!

if we ever start codifying RWD economic theory
I'd like to make this small contribution
after ML's paper on "Opportunity Cost" in the context of failed relationships
which was freakin' brilliant!!!!
I guess we're all gonna be Keynesians now....
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Davo on September 29, 2019, 09:55:21 PM
How much more can the unofficial wage be in Ukraine?.....

In Russia k’s Ex officially makes $2000 US a month and his unofficial wage was $7000+US. S’s Ex only made an offical wage, but it’s huge even by western standards at $14,000 US a month.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: GQBlues on September 29, 2019, 10:18:37 PM

Bo,


I am behind in reading this thread, so if this has been pointed out previously, I apologize. The average salary is not represented by 1/2 below, 1/2 above. That is the median value. The average or mode is the total of all salaries divided by the total individual salaries.


average = (x1 + x2 ... + xn) / n


HDL


This post was composed with the aid of a degree in Computer Science and Mathematics.  :P

The ‘454’ number is likely the government’s data received from a given year in their attempt to publish a report for the ‘mean average’ salary in Ukraine for that year. Modal value is as ML cited. Theoretically, ‘454’ may well be a factual ‘median’ salary with the absolutely wild presumption that Ukraine’s work force is equally distributed by both high and lower tiered pay scale. Though I think this will be more unlikely.

But, then it may well be the ‘modal value’ too. Who knows. One thing I’m certain of is that it can’t be the range.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: msmob on September 30, 2019, 12:28:15 AM
How much more can the unofficial wage be in Ukraine?.....

In Russia k’s Ex officially makes $2000 US a month and his unofficial wage was $7000+US. S’s Ex only made an offical wage, but it’s huge even by western standards at $14,000 US a month.

Hi Davo

They are outliers

I know shop workers on 100 Roubles an hour. in Russia - not legal salary rate - but some folks are that desperate to bring in extra dosh

Working in the local admin - ( 20 year service) .c US 700 /month ..

Ukraine pays less well ( officially ) so the quoted figure probably isn't so wide of the mark
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: SteveInBoston on September 30, 2019, 06:02:52 AM
If you want to do this again but differently, you may have to wait almost two years before thinking about getting involved with another international woman. Americans can do only one k-1 within a two year period unless they obtain a waiver. Americans can do only two k-1s in their lifetime unless they obtain a waiver. If you choose to get back in the saddle quickly to finish the education at the University of Ukraine as some here recommend, get an attorney to do the waiver paperwork.

http://www.siam-legal.com/us-visa/how-many-k1-visas-can-i-apply-for/

Incorrect.

It is true if the K1 visa is approved.  The petitioner cannot apply for another K1 for 2 years.

If SF cancels the K1 before it is approved, this limit does not apply.  It does make it a bit harder for the next K1 yo be approved, because there will be a record of the cancelled application which he'll need to explain.

Alos, even if his K1 was approved, and she arrived to the US but had to leave because he didn't marry her, he can still search for someone else and date right away.  I would not recommend it, but he will be able to.  He just could not apply for the second K1 until the 2 years since the approval of the first K1.

Also, there are other options.  He can meet someone and get married overseas and apply for a CR1 visa.

Nothing precludes him from dating internationally.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: GenMish on September 30, 2019, 06:14:11 AM
Now that this topic has become a moot statistics discussion concerning the official and underground wages of FSU workers, I would like to back peddle to a thought GQ raised two or three times during this thread. GQ raised the importance of using instincts when dating FSU women, which is great if your instincts are good.

Its been about two years since my divorce, and I have had time to think. Ya know...The most crucial decisions I have made in my life were not based on Logic and Reasoning, but rather Instinct. Looking back, I am noticing I have been rewarded for making illogical decisions, and avoided minefields, because my instincts were right

Anyways, my thought for the day as my instincts have led to two punts for FSU lately, but I ran without thinking in the early 90s
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: HoundDaddyLee on September 30, 2019, 08:01:02 AM
Well then you must have missed a course in Statistics.

Mode is not calculated as you indicated, equating it with average.

Mode is the value that appears most often.


ML,


You are correct sir! My apologies.


HDL
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Gator on September 30, 2019, 08:27:36 AM


Mode is not calculated as you indicated, equating it with average.

Mode is the value that appears most often.

Hounddog was correct about median, and you are correct about mode.

Please don't stop with just median and mode, someone please introduce the term "mean" (the result of Hounddog's equation).

Bo had corrected  Omega82's suggestion that the "average" salary was $300 per month.  Due to the  skewed distribution of income likely in Ukraine (otherwise known as "income inequality" by Democrats),  Omega's  $300 figure could easily be the median if Bo's $454 were indeed the mean.

Two conclusions: 

              -  the term "average" is ambiguous

              -  Ukraine is economically disadvantaged in relationship with US, and this could be a factor when AM date UW      (aka "no shit Sherlock!")   
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: ML on September 30, 2019, 08:32:02 AM

ML,

You are correct sir! My apologies.

HDL

Confession, I had a course in stat during undergrad, another course during masters and two during doctoral.

However, that was long ago.

My terminology and knowledge was refreshed just recently when I helped wife get through 2 semesters of stat in her doctoral program.  Mean, median and mode concepts and calculations were in first chapter!!
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Trenchcoat on September 30, 2019, 09:37:06 AM
Hi Davo

They are outliers

I know shop workers on 100 Roubles an hour. in Russia - not legal salary rate - but some folks are that desperate to bring in extra dosh

Working in the local admin - ( 20 year service) .c US 700 /month ..

Ukraine pays less well ( officially ) so the quoted figure probably isn't so wide of the mark

Hooray! Mobe finally admits that a lot of poor Russians and Ukrainians actually exist and they are the bulk of the population. Giving lie of course to the notion put around by some on here that their financial circumstances of day to day Russian & Ukrainian people are much the same as ours.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: HoundDaddyLee on September 30, 2019, 09:47:15 AM
Confession, I had a course in stat during undergrad, another course during masters and two during doctoral.

However, that was long ago.

My terminology and knowledge was refreshed just recently when I helped wife get through 2 semesters of stat in her doctoral program.  Mean, median and mode concepts and calculations were in first chapter!!


I am going through a Data Science class, so I have no excuse. I must have fell on my head yesterday.  :cluebat:


HDL
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: ML on September 30, 2019, 10:04:22 AM
I must have fell on my head yesterday.  :cluebat:
HDL

I think I do that on a regular basis.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: jone on September 30, 2019, 10:15:23 AM

I am going through a Data Science class, so I have no excuse. I must have fell on my head yesterday.  :cluebat:


HDL

Well, in that case, nice to see you banging your head in the forum, HDL.   Been way too long.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Trenchcoat on September 30, 2019, 10:17:54 AM
Interesting point Trench about losing respect. I think this plays into what I was saying about saying no to her early in the interaction as being a necessary test of the possibility of us moving forward.

I've been thinking more about what I said SF and I'm thinking that chances are you stood outside the shops as you felt a 'request' would be coming and in all honesty it probably was and would have happen whether you were in the shop or not. I still think it was a mistake standing outside as it would have personafied the distrust and her respect for you slide.

I'm thinking though, if this relationship was not already doomed by and intent or person she was and I'm not sure if it was as there seemed to be some closeness there. That the main reason may have not so much been the standing outside the shop but your pursuing of sexual intercourse. Now this is natural and understandable to us men at least, but even in your description you tell us that she wasn't that responsive to your advances at first, even for a while. I do wonder if she may have felt pushed into it or at least it was an area you perhaps should have left to naturally develop.

It might have been resentment that made her act so or some other reason more native to the Ukraine scene. I have heard that a woman requesting stuff is part of dating gameplay over there (from a Russian lady member of this forum). Now I know also that some FSW will give a guy sex in return for a good meal out as a form of returning the favour. It could well be having thought about it that some women take this on a vice versa basis. That if a guy wants sex then he should be prepared to return the favour in terms of buying her stuff, giving her money, etc. Not necessary a fixed deal or set amount, just a kind of unspoken code, i.e so it does not sound like it is an unsavoury escort type of relationship/deal.

In fact there could likely be some emotional feeling and attachment between the two parties, and like said the carrying on is just dating gameplay. The excuses she gave for wanting the money could just be a way of giving a reason for the financial return of what she wants.

In any case I think the pushing for sex early on could have been the biggest mistake followed by giving into her demands. Even if it is part of dating gameplay a good negotiator will always hold out and give little away. I think that you gave away such big sums of money (for her at least) has probably made her lose all respect for you and the relationship is a non-runner in the long term. I would say take the experience of all of this and get out there and fish again.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: msmob on September 30, 2019, 10:41:59 AM
Hooray! Mobe finally admits that a lot of poor Russians and Ukrainians actually exist and they are the bulk of the population. Giving lie of course to the notion put around by some on here that their financial circumstances of day to day Russian & Ukrainian people are much the same as ours.

Trench,

You are already firmly in the RWD camp of posters who cannot remember what they have posted - let alone what *I* have posted, before ..

Your 'mistake' is thinking you can tip up in UA / RU and seem like a wallet to be tapped and an upgrade ..

Many Russians / Ukrainians own their own apartments and have a Dacha  - they have a roof over their heads .. 

'Carry on'

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Boethius on September 30, 2019, 10:45:30 AM
I've been thinking more about what I said SF and I'm thinking that chances are you stood outside the shops as you felt a 'request' would be coming and in all honesty it probably was and would have happen whether you were in the shop or not. I still think it was a mistake standing outside as it would have personafied the distrust and her respect for you slide.

Him not going into the store is irrelevant.  Most FSUM don't go shoe shopping with their girlfriends/wives.

Quote
I have heard that a woman requesting stuff is part of dating gameplay over there (from a Russian lady member of this forum). Now I know also that some FSW will give a guy sex in return for a good meal out as a form of returning the favour. It could well be having thought about it that some women take this on a vice versa basis. That if a guy wants sex then he should be prepared to return the favour in terms of buying her stuff, giving her money, etc. Not necessary a fixed deal or set amount, just a kind of unspoken code, i.e so it does not sound like it is an unsavoury escort type of relationship/deal.

These are not common in Ukraine, only among a certain subset of individuals. 

Quote
In any case I think the pushing for sex early on could have been the biggest mistake followed by giving into her demands. Even if it is part of dating gameplay a good negotiator will always hold out and give little away. I think that you gave away such big sums of money (for her at least) has probably made her lose all respect for you and the relationship is a non-runner in the long term. I would say take the experience of all of this and get out there and fish again.

Relationships are not a zero sum game.

This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: HoundDaddyLee on September 30, 2019, 10:45:40 AM
Well, in that case, nice to see you banging your head in the forum, HDL.   Been way too long.


Hi Jon,


I read here often, just stay silent mostly. Don't need the aggravation. But will pop in from time to time.


HDL
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Boethius on September 30, 2019, 10:49:39 AM
Your 'mistake' is thinking you can tip up in UA / RU and seem like a wallet to be tapped and an upgrade ..

Many Russians / Ukrainians own their own apartments and have a Dacha  - they have a roof over their heads ..


Quite. 


I know that FSUW are not as enamored of the West as they were in the 1990's.  There is a realization now, that life in the West is different, but not better.


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: BillyB on September 30, 2019, 10:52:02 AM
As far as wages and cost of living goes, it's much higher in Kiev than other parts of Ukraine.



It is true if the K1 visa is approved.  The petitioner cannot apply for another K1 for 2 years.


You are correct. If Scarface's k-1 is approved, he needs to cancel it before it gets approved otherwise he will have a waiting period.

Nothing precludes him from dating internationally.


If Scarface's k-1 is currently approved, then cancels it, gets back on the saddle and meets a new foreign woman and wants to do a k-1, she will have close to a 3 year wait before she can come to America. Two years waiting for when Scarface can apply for a 2nd k-1 and a year wait for her own k-1 to be processed. Hopefully Scarface's k-1 is not approved yet should he choose the same path. Marrying a woman in her country is another option if k-1 isn't currently available.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on September 30, 2019, 05:06:40 PM
"There is a realization now, that life in the West is different, but not better. "

chivo deavotchka maya?

are you kidding me?
remember I lived there...

the difference between an upper class American neighborhood and the average neighborhood in Ukraine
is the difference between the earth and sky
AND YOU KNOW THIS

compare the houses, shops, infrastructure here:

http://www.trulia.com/TX/Shenandoah/77380/

vrs Ukraine, and tell me one is not 1,000 times better than the other
I guess being 1,000 better is different
I remember myself the feeling of shock seeing all this after 3 years in Ukraine
you feel it, when you come here!!!!

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Boethius on October 01, 2019, 02:27:56 PM
You forget that I lived there as well, for longer than did you, and I speak the language flawlessly.

You are discussing things that are overall, unimportant, and fail to see the gestalt.  The language, the culture, the perception of being part of a whole in your homeland.

Had you truly lived there, you would understand that you were a foreigner, and would always be.  You lived looking through your window, and you measure by what you perceive as important.

This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: jone on October 01, 2019, 04:04:30 PM
It seems the belts are coming off.......

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Boethius on October 01, 2019, 04:26:53 PM
No, I'm not trying to vilify krimster.  The reality is, if you were not born in the FSU, you are a foreigner, and always will be. 

Your way of thinking, no matter where you were born, is to some degree formed by where you were raised.  To the average Ukrainian, being able to buy one of the houses in krimster's link is not the be all and end all in life.  Most FSU individuals in the West who do not marry Westerners self segregate in FSU centred communities.  What they value is different, in degrees, to what the average "Westerner" values.  Their societies are formed around different values, and function differently, to certain degrees.  It has been argued that this is partly why FSU individuals in the West have a disproportionately high suicide rate.  That's been studied in Russia and Ukraine, and has been reported on in newspapers, sort of as a cautionary tale.  I'm not certain that's fair, as one could argue that a person who emigrated was already someone who was seeking something different, couldn't find it at home or abroad, and therefore, is just generally unsatisfied in life. 

krimster is assuming what a person wants is based on his experiences and desires. 

This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on October 01, 2019, 05:11:08 PM
gozpedy...

the pursuit of happiness is life’s main objective...
and this pursuit is much easier in a society that offers Whole Foods compared to society that offers a stoolchik and some samachkee...

to say that the pursuit of happiness is unimportant and irrelevant to the never ending exodus from Ukraine, is 100% FALSE...

what is more important than material well being and the associated mental well being this produces?

the people who want this feeling the most, aren’t those who are already wealthy
it’s those who are poor

so I say you are OBVIOUSLY wrong!

my rose colored glasses went away after about a year of living there
I was the only parent who would stay after dropping their kids off at school who would comb the playground for needles and broken vodka bottles before I returned home...

people who live in a wasteland dream of living where the grass is green
it’s as simple as that


“The language, the culture, the perception of being part of a whole in your homeland.”

sorry to say, I never felt part of ANY homeland...
except the one where I hung my coat

but tell me BO, what could have possibly caused you to give up on the glorious rodina
and return to a capitalist society with a coincidentally much higher standard of living
which obviously based on your comments was a HUGE loss for you to overcome to accept the decadent consumer west at the expense of losing your rodina...
how do you cope with the great suffering this must have caused you?

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Boethius on October 01, 2019, 06:18:40 PM
the pursuit of happiness is life’s main objective...
and this pursuit is much easier in a society that offers Whole Foods compared to society that offers a stoolchik and some samachkee...

I can walk to a corner store or outdoor market from MIL's apartment in Kyiv and find the same foods I could at Whole Foods, at a tenth of the price.  Sure, if I were a Ukrainian pensioner, there'd be times in the year I couldn't afford grapes, or peppers, but eating wholesome fresh food is not really a concern for most Ukrainians.
Quote
what is more important than material well being and the associated mental well being this produces?

You look at this from a very narrow, and limited perspective.

Quote
the people who want this feeling the most, aren’t those who are already wealthy it’s those who are poor

so I say you are OBVIOUSLY wrong!

Were this true, there would be no happy monks.  My grandmother, God rest her soul, lived hand to mouth her entire life, and was one of the most contented people you could meet.  I've met plenty of "filthy rich" individuals who were miserable.  Money can buy you comfort.  It can't buy you happiness.
Quote
my rose colored glasses went away after about a year of living there
I was the only parent who would stay after dropping their kids off at school who would comb the playground for needles and broken vodka bottles before I returned home...

people who live in a wasteland dream of living where the grass is green
it’s as simple as that

Proof that you approached this from your own, Western perspective.

Quote
but tell me BO, what could have possibly caused you to give up on the glorious rodina
which obviously based on your comments was a HUGE loss for you to overcome to accept the decadent consumer west at the expense of losing your rodina...
how do you cope with the great suffering this must have caused you?

Ukraine is not my batkivshchina.  I am living in my homeland, the one that formed me, the one of which I am a product.  I'm just pointing to the fact that how people think is formed by their environment.  It's obvious to me that you don't understand Ukrainian thinking.  What you assume is important for them is not always the case.  Many of them find life in the West empty.  I'm not saying one way is right, the other is not, just that your way is not the only way, and it's not what everyone desires.

This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Frrrrrrt on October 01, 2019, 07:09:55 PM
Guys, Boethius and Krimster, do you talk about whole Ukraine or certain areas? The thing is, I'm pretty much agree with both of you, but only in one case: if you Boethius talk about capital and few big cities and you Krimster about province. Those posts seem not as opinion of people who glass half full/half empty, but as conversation of people who speak about 2 absolutely different areas and different situations.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: jone on October 01, 2019, 07:23:36 PM
With a name like Krimster, it would be difficult to figure out where his base of operations was.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on October 01, 2019, 08:02:34 PM
Gozpedy!!!

it is ironic that you emphasize the idealist observation that human experience is dependent on the perceptions from our environment, while I emphasize the importance of real-world conditions, in terms of socioeconomic interactions...

so what we have here, ain’t just a failure to communicate, no!
Borgia Moy!, Nyet!
it’s a full blown classic case of Dialectical Materialism versus the Hegelian Dialectic!!!!
and I think we all know how that argument turned out, right?
so based upon precedent, I have to say, sorry Bo, but Dialectical Materialism, based on the importance of real-world conditions of socioeconomic interactions is a better approach that uses knowledge and not feelings to gauge the world...

as a lawyer, you know that for you to evaluate my  level of knowledge of life in Ukraine, is purely conjectural....

I know what culture shock feels like, I’ve felt it many times....
and one of the biggest I ever felt, was when I came back to the USA after 3 years in Ukraine
I moved into a wealthy gated neighborhood in The Woodlands, Texas
It was a shock
How clean and organized everything was
EVERYONE lived in a mansion and drove a BMW or Mercedes, all cars were brand new
electricty, gas, water worked all the time!
mail was always delivered, garbage always collected, not one piece of trash on the street
all the grocery stores were “elitny”
it felt like the streets were paved with gold...
that was my perception, I imagine for some poor village girl like my wife it would be overwhelming
but then...
that is one of the reasons I married a village girl in the first place

when it comes to the ladies...
krimster is not a durachit', nyet!

I live the high life of a country gentleman, thanks to my two Russian cooks/housekeepers
I actually have 3, but only 2 are full time and one is just part time

so I have freshly laundered, scented and ironed clothes daily...
elaborate and exotic meals prepared and brought to me
and the house and office are spotless

and I have Russian women EAGERLY and ENTHUSIASTICALLY doing this for me every day....
and you tell me, I don't know life in Ukraine...
REALLY...
how'd I get this harem then?
cuz I thought I got it by totally using my knowledge of "Life in Ukraine"!!!
and what good is knowledge, if you can't apply it towards some goal
like living a life of total ease and luxury...
uhhhhhhmmmm hmmmmmmm...

finger snap and now over to VK and uvidet Russki boy!!
yalky palk ludie!


Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: msmob on October 03, 2019, 01:49:18 AM
Frrrt!

Do not forget to introduce yourself.

I only ask as your posting style reminds me of someone.



Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Boethius on October 03, 2019, 01:36:21 PM
Guys, Boethius and Krimster, do you talk about whole Ukraine or certain areas? The thing is, I'm pretty much agree with both of you, but only in one case: if you Boethius talk about capital and few big cities and you Krimster about province. Those posts seem not as opinion of people who glass half full/half empty, but as conversation of people who speak about 2 absolutely different areas and different situations.


I am referring not only to Kyiv, but to zadrepane selos from Central Ukraine to the Western border, as these are areas I know well.


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Boethius on October 03, 2019, 03:09:13 PM
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=23966.msg519023#msg519023 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=23966.msg519023#msg519023)

Ukraine 2019 is not Ukraine 1999, or even Ukraine 2008.

This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on October 03, 2019, 06:13:03 PM
slovo tvoyey mamma!

last year over 100,000 people were leaving Ukraine each month...
based on this alarming statistic, it sounds a lot like the “same ole’ Ukraine” to me...

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/brain-drain-devastating-ukraine-n976936
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Boethius on October 03, 2019, 06:50:22 PM
But those are not UW leaving to marry WM.  They are Ukrainians leaving to work in Europe, predominantly, Poland.  Poland's language and culture are similar, certainly, not foreign, to a Ukrainian.  Even in the Soviet period, there were towns in Poland that were ethnic majority Ukrainian.  In 2017, 662,000 Ukrainians moved to the EU, and of that number, 585,439 moved to Poland. The other EU countries with large (in relation to their size) Ukrainian immigrant populations are the Czech Republic, Hungary (there are a significant number of ethnic Hungarians in the Western Ukrainian border region), Slovakia, Lithuania, and Estonia.  Then, of course, there are literally millions of Ukrainians who emigrate to Russia.  Culturally, all of these countries are similar to Ukraine.  Other than Hungary (and as I noted, it is Hungarian Ukrainians moving there), all of the languages are similar to Ukrainian, so functioning within that country is a given from Day 1. 

77,000 residency permits were issued to Ukrainians by Russia in 2018, and a further 81,000 Ukrainians took Russian citizenship.  That was all before the rules for Ukrainians to obtain Russian citizenship were loosened by Russia.

The majority of the Ukrainians in the EU eventually will return to Ukraine.  I don't believe that's the case for those in Russia.




Google was used to confirm the numbers of Ukrainians issued residency permits/citizenship in the EU and Russia.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on October 03, 2019, 08:36:57 PM



statistics from the DHS shows that there is NOW only half as many men who are willing to be visa sponsors then there was just 4 years ago!!

to a woman wanting to marry an AM....
the “fair market value” of such a man just doubled!!!
so his stock doubled in price compared to 4 years ago due to the drop in supply...

Ladies!
why carry the immigration load all by yourself, when a smart girl can just marry an American donkey and let him DO ALL THE HEAVY LIFTING for you...

it’s really very easy to get an American man to do whatever you want him to do!

smart Russian women will become hunters and get a visa and come here in Woodlands, Texas, go to a mid-size church in the richest zip code and look for men in dark suits and ties who are sitting alone in church....
these are the local oil men....
you accidentally bump into them on the way out of church...
and take it from there....

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: ML on October 03, 2019, 08:37:58 PM
Boe, Estonian language is in family with Hungarian and Finnish, and has nothing in common with Slavic languages.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Trenchcoat on October 03, 2019, 09:30:45 PM
Boe, Estonian language is in family with Hungarian and Finnish, and has nothing in common with Slavic languages.

Ooo... That's going to bite, she ain't going to take that well, lol ;D
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Boethius on October 03, 2019, 11:41:20 PM
if you combine K1 and K2 for the USA, you get maybe 5% out of the total population fleeing Ukraine each year, who instead of doing all that heavy immigration work on their own,
will simply get an American donkey to do it all for them!   
a VERY smart move!!!

There were less than 2000 fiance and spousal visas issued to Ukrainians for the US in 2017.  Of those, some will be FSUM in the US marrying FSUW, some will be women marrying men. 

The Ukrainian government keeps statistics on this, for all countries.  In 2018, 489 Ukrainians married foreigners from the US, Canada, and Mexico.  Of the 225,880 marriages in the country, 214,519 were to UM.  The highest number of marriages to foreigners was to Asia and the Middle East - 5,341.  I suspect the vast majority of that number is comprised of marriages to Israelis.

So, overall, a drop in the bucket.  North America is just not as attractive a destination as it was 15 years ago.

Boe, Estonian language is in family with Hungarian and Finnish, and has nothing in common with Slavic languages.

I know that.   However, about 25% of Estonia's population is ethnically Russian, and about a third of the population speaks Russian as their first language.  The eastern part of Estonia is largely Russian speaking.  Narva, for example, has a majority Russian population.  Tallinn is about 50% Russian speaking, although Russians are a minority there.  So, it is easy for Ukrainians to function in the country.  Moreover, the culture is still heavily influenced by the past, so it is not "foreign" to a Ukrainian.

This post was composed without the aid of google, but I did access a Ukrainian government portal for the marriage statistics.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: msmob on October 03, 2019, 11:50:52 PM
Ooo... That's going to bite, she ain't going to take that well, lol ;D

I read to the end and saw the Boethius had posted the riposte I was going to make to ML.

As for Trench,

Once again...wait a while to learn, rather than proving you haven't been to places.

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on October 04, 2019, 08:07:51 AM

according to DHS for 2017 there were 32,998 K-1 visas approved that year

During the Trump Presidency, denials have increased, approvals have decreased, and pending cases have skyrocketed...

and this is reflected in the statistics....
so the decrease is NOT caused by a drop in demand but in supply....

what would happen to the price of oil if you cut it’s supply in half....
inelastic demand would mean the price would double....

guess what happened to the value of a 40 yr old AM visa sponsor in the Ukrainian MOB market in the last 3 years?  yeah baby, it went up!!!!

100,000 people are leaving Ukraine per month...
3% of the population per year
seeking to live an “empty life” in the west, away from dear Rodina

that’s a big market in search of an EZ solution
to all the difficulties of the immigration process
and the product I sold was very appealing to my market segment
poor single Ukrainian women in their mid 20s
I gave ALL my customers COMPLETE satisfaction...

and I have a salesman's "hunch", that comes from knowing the territory
that in another year or so, "market conditions"
are gonna change
even more to the AM's favor...


Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: SteveInBoston on October 04, 2019, 11:17:31 AM
Hmm,

2017?  The year that Europe allowed visa free travel to the schengen zone for Ukrainians?
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on October 04, 2019, 02:22:22 PM
that's actually a good angle to play if you're an American man...
last year I met A LOT of Ukrainian women in Amsterdam!!!
it was about half with a foreign boyfriend and half with a Russian speaking boyfriend
there were several Americans among them...

if I were single, I would definitely consider bringing a UW I met on VK to Amsterdam for my first visit if she has a shenghen visa!
and get her high as a kite in the coffeeshop!!!!
and then...
well, you know...






 
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: msmob on October 04, 2019, 08:24:13 PM
She doesn't NEED a Schengen, if she has a Biometric Passport.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Trenchcoat on October 07, 2019, 02:00:42 PM
What Krim suggests is surely fun but in terms of finding a wife it's probably going to end up with similar results as SF has here.

To be honest had I not gone through the stuff like SF has I probably wouldn't have learnt much. While I kind of wished that I didn't stuff up I did have a lot of fun.

I don't believe these women mark a guy from the outset, there not out to scam from the word go. If SF's woman had the intent on doing that she would have been trying to hit him all the time for a lot of money.

I still think the main problem was SF after sex too early on. I think it probably put him in not a good light in her frame of men. I think saying that she thought him a Sex tourist might be a bit cle sha. I think though that it probably altered the basis on the game rules in her mind. For sure she lied and on this front she probably loses out locally. Not all FSW may shift to these game rules in their mind if a guy wants sex but I'm guessing many will that are left over on the International Dating Scene. It's probably why they are their aside from the materialism.

I think the way to play such a situation is to move on a girl for a kiss, holding hands etc but leave any talk of sex to her. If a girl is up for it she will probably make it known, it may be within the three days it maybe longer. If she asks for stuff and I mention of sex or similar from the guy then she can get stuffed. That way the guy will know it's not down to his doing if she asks for stuff.

I think this is probably the better way to try and get to know her better, get to know her family, etc. Rather than her think, 'oh he wants that, ok fair enough, well I want this'. I think this is probably the better way to proceed with FSW.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: msmob on October 07, 2019, 03:15:10 PM
You do not think, period ,Trench..


How have your theories been working out?..

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Trenchcoat on October 07, 2019, 11:56:47 PM
You do not think, period ,Trench..


How have your theories been working out?..

You always say that to everything I write Mobe, you're just a crusty old man :D On balance out of everything I write it stands to reason on the law of averages I must at least get something occasionally right.

I'm not as wealthy as you Mobe and can't stay in the FSU for continuous periods, yet. However when I can I'm sure my chances will be far better.

Even still I think over time through my experiences there and my time on here with the help of Forum members that I have been able to work out a lot. How many times do WM walk away from woman after woman in the FSU because they do not understand what is going on? I recall Guppy Captain had quite a few of these, some other guys as well.

Often they think it is just another bad woman they have met when really what they did and how they acted unwittingly played a part I am coming to think. It has been said a couple of times on here that if the woman had been given the link to these threads she may tell a different story.

I don't believe either side starts out to act badly (usually) but I believe there are intricacies in the FSU dating game that WM don't generally understand and these need investigating if we are to up the success rate of dating FSW.

I have had a lot of stuff to work through myself but I believe I am getting there and progress has been made.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: msmob on October 08, 2019, 02:23:56 AM
You always say that to everything I write Mobe, you're just a crusty old man :D

..and you avoid the answer, while I take holiday snaps like this...

(http://i.imgur.com/pQfqbca.jpg)
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on October 08, 2019, 09:25:02 AM
Bammmm!!!

I am hearing nothing but crickets from Trench after that one. lol
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Trenchcoat on October 08, 2019, 01:38:06 PM
I think this is probably the better way to try and get to know her better, get to know her family, etc. Rather than her think, 'oh he wants that, ok fair enough, well I want this'. I think this is probably the better way to proceed with FSW.

I would rather Forum Members put their thoughts towards thoughts on the above. I think  on this I have it about right and have cracked this phenomena of what it is with these ladies that aren't scanners but aren't good girls either. Would be interested to see if other Forum Members concur?
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Boethius on October 08, 2019, 02:20:13 PM
It just demonstrates, yet again, that you have no idea about normal relationships, Trench.  They're not quid pro quo, and a normal woman would never approach a relationship as such.


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Trenchcoat on October 08, 2019, 04:14:53 PM
It just demonstrates, yet again, that you have no idea about normal relationships, Trench.  They're not quid pro quo, and a normal woman would never approach a relationship as such.


This post was composed without the aid of google.

I don't think it was a normal relationship I had so I think you're right there Boe. I do think though that she was genuinely looking for a guy but I think she was single because she too may have had difficulties with forming normal relationships. As explained I think she didn't know how to play it any other way once the relationship was on a intimate footing. She saw it as a more serious relationship and in her mind she should get in return.

I think SF's girl had similar traits but she was willing to go one step further and lie. Essentially though the result was much the same in it screwed up the relationship. I think in some cases out there intimate relations too early on with some girls could screw up the relationships. Hence why they are there, they constantly make the same mistakes over & over whether with a local guy or a foreign guy.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: msmob on October 09, 2019, 03:44:37 AM
Bammmm!!!

I am hearing nothing but crickets from Trench after that one. lol

You should still be only hearing them Crickets, but Trench really IS that stupid.

He doesn't listen to good advice..he waits for someone to agree with him)
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: 2tallbill on October 09, 2019, 09:15:32 AM
Trench you are spinning your wheels. However, if you can
determine if a girl is a good girl or not, then you've made
progress. Worrying about how or why or what caused a
girl not to be a good girl is a waste of time.

Once a girl is determined to NOT be a good girl you need
to dump her and move on. Otherwise you will be spinning
your wheels for no reason.

I've developed a flow chart that I hope I can load here
as a PDF.

Everyone please excuse my crude abilities. I used excel
and printed it as a PDF
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on October 09, 2019, 01:22:48 PM
It looks pretty straight forward.
Title: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: 2tallbill on October 10, 2019, 01:16:48 AM
It looks pretty straight forward.

It is pretty straight forward, the problem is that men let their emotions
get in the way. They want it to work out with this girl, but when it's not
working they make excuses for the girl because of the time invested in
her.

They look at all the time, emotions and efforts put into this one girl and
want to salvage it, that only works in mushy Hollywoood movies but not
real life.

However, if it's not working out there is no way to wish it to be otherwise
so the most effective thing you can do is move on. It's far easier said than
done. I was on a trip to Voronezh and it wasn't working out with this very
beautiful woman. I really wanted it to work out but I knew it wouldn't.

So I gave myself a pep talk and decided to meet other girls and I came
across Angel Eyes and have been living the dream. If I had moped around
pining for the other girl, I would have never met my Angel Eyes.

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Trenchcoat on October 10, 2019, 06:06:47 PM
Trench you are spinning your wheels. However, if you can
determine if a girl is a good girl or not, then you've made
progress. Worrying about how or why or what caused a
girl not to be a good girl is a waste of time.


Once a girl is determined to NOT be a good girl you need
to dump her and move on. Otherwise you will be spinning
your wheels for no reason.

I've developed a flow chart that I hope I can load here
as a PDF.

Everyone please excuse my crude abilities. I used excel
and printed it as a PDF

I'm not worried about why a girl is a certain way, I'm more intrigued why a girl is a certain way.

I know it's time spent trying to work it out but it interests me to learn why. I feel that there is benefit in understanding.

I would agree though that in the moment there is usually little point in staying with a girl that is bad or wrong for the guy. If things have gone wrong or are wrong then it's probably too late and time to move on.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: 2tallbill on October 19, 2019, 07:20:29 AM
I'm not worried about why a girl is a certain way, I'm more
intrigued why a girl is a certain way.

Ok, change the word worried with waste time.

Don't waste time thinking about why a girl is flawed.
Spend the time instead to find a girl without character flaws.

Besides what's the odds that you'll be
the first guy that figures out women?

I gave up on it nearly 40 years ago

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on October 19, 2019, 01:17:11 PM
maybe a waste of time “up front”
but...
if you really start to get a serious about a woman, then you MUST find out what makes her tick!

most of you won’t be as (un)fortunate as me and spend a few years with your in-laws like I did...

let me tell you...
it was PRETTY FREAKIN BRUTAL!!!!!
not pretty at all...
seeing how a dysfunctional Russian family behaves...

most people who exist in that environment will have some pretty major character flaws, excessive selfishness, aggressive PTSD, etc....

then there are “the cinderellas”
too innocent to be devious...

usually they are the people at the bottom of Ukrainian society
if there was a treasure map of Ukrainian women
there would be a big X right here...
in combination with that, I also prefer the “young farm girl” type
because when you peel the clothes off one of ‘em
your reaction is “OH MY GAWD!”

they're REAL "purty" when they're young, and not too bad when they get older either...
plus her girlfriends are always younger than her and usually look the opposite from her!!!
I am SO SPOILED by Russian women!!!
they give me EVERYTHING I NEED!!!



Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: 2tallbill on October 20, 2019, 08:47:09 AM
maybe a waste of time “up front”
but...
if you really start to get a serious about a woman, then you MUST find out what makes her tick!

I totally agree with you once you've found a good girl to pursue.

However, Trench is talking about trying to figure out why broken,
dishonest girls or girls with bad character are the way they are.

If he were a trained psychologist, I would say go for it, write a book,
or a 5 part series for GQ, become famous but don't get romantically
involved with any of them.

However since he's not a trained psychologist and he is wasting his
time and the time of those girls. He needs to spend all his time
seeking out a good girl who will like him how he is.

He needs to sift through hundreds and hundreds not stopping to try
to figure out why Oksana from Omsk wants to scam him for a new
phone and boots, or why Marina from Minsk wants a new fur coat.

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Trenchcoat on October 23, 2019, 07:06:06 AM
Ok, change the word worried with waste time.

Don't waste time thinking about why a girl is flawed.
Spend the time instead to find a girl without character flaws.

Besides what's the odds that you'll be
the first guy that figures out women?

I gave up on it nearly 40 years ago

LOL, they can seem that way.

I get your point, though I think a lot of girls are on International dating sites because they are flawed badly enough in character for local guys to pass over them. The less attractive looking ones maybe less so because they may have just been passed over as they were less attractive. I'm not obsessed with getting a model looks girl but I do of course have to be into here. Reasonably decent looking and some real good chemistry are good enough for me.

I'm only an everyday looking guy myself so I don't bring up loads of girls from my profile only the odd one every so often who stays around (for various reasons no doubt) so doing the numbers game has not been that easy for me.

Just this week I've managed to buy a decent second hand Canon DSLR camera, my first to date so hopefully taking some new photos with a better quality camera will help, they do seem to lift things up a bit. We shall see...
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Trenchcoat on October 23, 2019, 07:14:19 AM
maybe a waste of time “up front”
but...
if you really start to get a serious about a woman, then you MUST find out what makes her tick!

most of you won’t be as (un)fortunate as me and spend a few years with your in-laws like I did...

let me tell you...
it was PRETTY FREAKIN BRUTAL!!!!!
not pretty at all...
seeing how a dysfunctional Russian family behaves...

most people who exist in that environment will have some pretty major character flaws, excessive selfishness, aggressive PTSD, etc....

then there are “the cinderellas”
too innocent to be devious...

usually they are the people at the bottom of Ukrainian society
if there was a treasure map of Ukrainian women
there would be a big X right here...

How did that go down Krim?

I know the Kherson girl I was with didn't get on with her Sister in Law that lived in the same flat as she did and she had fallings out with her Brother she also shared the flat with.

I can imagine that all being in a two bedroom flat could be a case of too close for comfort. Many families have the odd tiff while growing up but I gather with Russian families it goes way beyond that?

Of course I'm generalising and not all families necesarily will but I'm guessing like you say Krim its a frequent occurence.

Probably fair to say Kherson girl had a fairly strong streak of selfishness in her, she was probably not the worst girl around her parts but I think her character flaws no doubt caused her issues that she didn't fully realise.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on October 23, 2019, 07:54:11 AM
for me, the observer, it was PRETTY BRUTAL!!!!
I gave my in-laws the Rancho Del Krimster
because even my wife doesn't want to live around her family any more!

there's actually a LOT more stress now in Crimea than there was before
so a lot of PTSD dysfunctional family behavior
a lot of attention seeking from the young, and anger from everyone else
this is pretty much the only personal interaction going on inside a dysfunctional Russian family...

AND THIS is why if you are a WHITE KNIGHT you can ride away with a princess!!!  yup!!
I LIKE HAPPY ENDINGS!!!!  I see nothing wrong with that and neither does my wife or her girlfriend who are always happy to oblige me in that regard providing I reciprocate of course
and I do believe in full EQUALITY in relationships!
because this is the ONLY way everything BALANCES
is by everything being equal
ZEN

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Trenchcoat on October 23, 2019, 08:16:07 AM
for me, the observer, it was PRETTY BRUTAL!!!!
I gave my in-laws the Rancho Del Krimster
because even my wife doesn't want to live around her family any more!

there's actually a LOT more stress now in Crimea than there was before
so a lot of PTSD dysfunctional family behavior
a lot of attention seeking from the young, and anger from everyone else
this is pretty much the only personal interaction going on inside a dysfunctional Russian family...

AND THIS is why if you are a WHITE KNIGHT you can ride away with a princess!!!  yup!!
I LIKE HAPPY ENDINGS!!!!  I see nothing wrong with that and neither does my wife or her girlfriend who are always happy to oblige me in that regard providing I reciprocate of course
and I do believe in full EQUALITY in relationships!
because this is the ONLY way everything BALANCES
is by everything being equal
ZEN

Oh I see, so lots of shouting and random out of the blue incidents and people going of on one then?

I'm guessing the person may adjust after a fair old time out of that situation, but some people might also be too far gone I'm thinking.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on October 23, 2019, 01:48:24 PM
Krimster,

What does this mean? I am kind of slow. Could you please elaborate?

"I LIKE HAPPY ENDINGS!!!!  I see nothing wrong with that and neither does my wife or her girlfriend who are always happy to oblige me in that regard providing I reciprocate of course
and I do believe in full EQUALITY in relationships!
because this is the ONLY way everything BALANCES
is by everything being equal
ZEN"

What is going on over there at casa de Krimster?
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: ML on October 23, 2019, 01:51:24 PM
Krimster,

What does this mean? I am kind of slow. Could you please elaborate?

"I LIKE HAPPY ENDINGS!!!!  I see nothing wrong with that and neither does my wife or her girlfriend who are always happy to oblige me in that regard providing I reciprocate of course
and I do believe in full EQUALITY in relationships!
because this is the ONLY way everything BALANCES
is by everything being equal
ZEN"

What is going on over there at casa de Krimster?

He was referring to the game of 'checkers' that they play frequently.
Sometimes he lets them win; and sometimes they let him win.
Everyone is happy.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on October 23, 2019, 03:58:19 PM
Well. That explains it.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: 2tallbill on October 27, 2019, 11:38:38 AM
I think a lot of girls are on International dating sites because they are
flawed badly enough in character for local guys to pass over them.

Trench,

You are exceptionally skilled at misreading the tea leaves (again).
FSU men treat FSUW like milk past the due date. Once a woman
gets to be 35+ years old FSU men generally won't consider her
for a serious long term relationship or for marriage AND they
won't accept her kids.

This is NOT because these women are flawed but because of how
unmarried men in the FSU view these women. Most of these women
don't join a foreign dating site, but some do.

If you are talking about 18-24 year old women then I don't know
why they might join a dating site. NONE of them with good intentions
will be looking for a guy your age and income so don't bother with them.
Gals that age are like bread that has been in the oven for ten minutes.
It looks good on the outside but the inside isn't done yet.

If you have any more theories post them here and I'll try to set you
straight.


Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Trenchcoat on October 27, 2019, 02:54:07 PM
Trench,

You are exceptionally skilled at misreading the tea leaves (again).
FSU men treat FSUW like milk past the due date. Once a woman
gets to be 35+ years old FSU men generally won't consider her
for a serious long term relationship or for marriage AND they
won't accept her kids.

This is NOT because these women are flawed but because of how
unmarried men in the FSU view these women. Most of these women
don't join a foreign dating site, but some do.

If you are talking about 18-24 year old women then I don't know
why they might join a dating site. NONE of them with good intentions
will be looking for a guy your age and income so don't bother with them.
Gals that age are like bread that has been in the oven for ten minutes.
It looks good on the outside but the inside isn't done yet.

If you have any more theories post them here and I'll try to set you
straight.

Cheers 2tallbill ;D In fairness I think you are right here. Nearly all the younger girls that are serious will be looking for a fairly wealthy guy, far more wealth than I have. The rest will just be messing around or will mess me around when they find out I'm not a rich guy. The older women in their late twenties to mid thirties are likely candidates for me, so I'm thinking about 28-35 age range. The 35+ girls are difficult for me as well as FSM as although conceivably they could have children time is not on their side.

Even many women in the UK once they get past 40 many have said that interest from men on websites like Match falls away a lot, basically as many would have great difficulty conceiving if at all and their looks are often fading.

I know the merits of taking a FSW already with a child have been discussed on here already, that they have shown they are fertile, etc. That said I would be taking on the financial cost of that child (I think more than one child of someone else's would be too many for me) from the word go. That is probably just about feasible for me but not an ideal situation.

Well I'm hoping to get out with my DSLR camera I recently bought this week for a few good shots, hopefully, weather and all being well. With a bit of luck I'm hoping that will do it in terms of turfing up a higher response rate.

If FSW towards their mid twenties are getting past their sell by date and interest from FSU men is starting to drop off then I imagine a guy like me could be considered a decent catch for them?
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: ML on October 27, 2019, 03:25:36 PM
If FSW towards their mid twenties are getting past their sell by date and interest from FSU men is starting to drop off then I imagine a guy like me could be considered a decent catch for them?

I think this idea promoted by some here regarding expiration date is a bit oversold.

While it is probably true that the local demand from FSU men decreases as a  woman's age increases . . . this does not mean that the women become desperate (not referring to TC or anyone in particular) at all.

Many of the women seem to accept that they will never be married (or married again) and just go on with their lives.  They likely think that their life alone is not as bad as life with a man that is not a good catch for them.

And, as I remember, unmarried women live just about as long as married women; whereas unmarried men have significantly lower life expectancy compared to married men.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on October 28, 2019, 02:32:51 PM
Just to give a quick update. And thank you for all of the advice. Some of it was pretty messed up. But some were really good.

I have not heard any more from my Ukrainian. I guess when she wasn't receiving money then she wasn't going to respond to me. So sad. But I am not one to live in the past. I did check a few more times on the site and she was going on there quite consistently. And for any other apologists, she has a 70% response rate to her potential suitors on there which is quite high. So she is quite active. Another sign of her lack of real honesty.

There are other details to put her veracity into question, but enough is enough of the past.

I am currently dating some in the home town for a while. Met a cute little OB/GYN locally who shows promise. We will see what happens. But I must say my interest in going back and giving it another try does intrigue me.

Of course, I would do it differently next time. I read ML's thread about WM/VM and it makes much sense. It takes away the urgency that is built into shorter visits and only seeing one woman.

I also like the idea of setting up camp in one secondary city as opposed to the main city for an extended time maybe 4 to six weeks. But I need to have my business set up for this. Maybe down the road a bit.

Anyway thanks for the info. And I will let you know if something else comes up.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Patagonie on October 28, 2019, 02:38:59 PM
You should read also my thread, it will show you a different vibe than the usual, write to you "unknow" lady who has the internet taste, but who knows exactly who is she....
Operation White Panther, if it can help you....
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on October 28, 2019, 04:47:01 PM
Thank you. I will check it out.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: BillyB on October 28, 2019, 07:28:20 PM
I am currently dating some in the home town for a while...... But I must say my interest in going back and giving it another try does intrigue me.


Not sure what city you're out of but there are plenty of FSU women in America. I've dated dozens here in the States although I eventually found my Ukrainian wife living in Libya. My story is below and I go into detail about my dates with FSU women. It'll help guys figure out what they're up against with FSU women. If you have a chance to read it all, you will find many Westerners can't handle it but the FSU women participating in the thread handles it just fine.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=11638.0
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on October 29, 2019, 12:58:01 PM
Pat,

I was reading your Operation White Panther. But then all of a sudden it jumped about two years forward and you were married? What happened?
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on October 29, 2019, 01:00:19 PM
Thanks Billy I am reading it and it is very interesting. Where did you find so many FSU women in America? I have dated one here a couple of years ago. That is what got me started on this path. But I did not know there were so many?

Is there some secret stash of them? lol
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on October 29, 2019, 08:44:07 PM
it's actually VERY easy to meet women in Russia if you're SMART...
based on your facial appearance vrs the facial appearance of local Russian men
Russian women will be able to IMMEDIATELY identify you as a foreigner
and this will get you attention from Russian women RIGHT AWAY!

you have to play up your unique appearance and stimulate a woman’s curiosity!
you don’t want to look like the “casual American Tourist” with jeans and tennis shoes
you want Armani but without a tie...

it would be SUPER EASY for me to pick up women in Moscow...
they approach me all the time...
instead, I have the opposite problem, my oldest daughter has to protect me from the cougar moms of her friends and I have to constantly fend off the horny women there trying to get my attention!!!

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: BillyB on October 29, 2019, 09:49:17 PM
Thanks Billy I am reading it and it is very interesting. Where did you find so many FSU women in America? I have dated one here a couple of years ago. That is what got me started on this path. But I did not know there were so many?

Is there some secret stash of them? lol

There are regions in America where there are over a hundred thousand FSU people live. I live in one of those areas. I used Mamba.ru  It's in Russian but can be viewed in English by choosing the language. Even if you don't live in one of those areas where lots of FSU women live, you can still contact FSU women fairly close by to you and meet them here easier than over there.

I remember trying to get a date with one Russian woman where I live with no luck. I was vacationing in Las Vegas and decided to contact women there.Her profile was changed and listed in Vegas so I contacted her. She just happened to be vacationing there the same time as I. So we agreed to hook up and meet at a casino. She showed up with her friend which was another Russian woman I dated in the past. I spotted them before they spotted me. I wasn't prepared for this and my mind was racing on what to say but I gave both of them a hug and all three of us had a good time in Vegas.

I communicated with Belarussian woman in Vegas who was a stripper. She danced to make money but wanted to find a good man. She told me she's not a hooker and turned down men who offered her up to 20K for a night with her. I thought about it but did not meet her.

There are social media and dating sites that have FSU women living in America that you can contact. I contacted a lot of women. I've been with Russian, Ukrainian, Uzbek, Belarussian, half Ukrainian half Spanish, Armenian, and Kazak women. Some of those women lived in Moldova and East Germany. Some came here on a tourist, work, student, fiancée, marriage, or business visa. Some got asylum or won the green card lottery. Interesting women with interesting backgrounds. A single guy doesn't have to be lonely.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Patagonie on October 30, 2019, 01:56:16 AM
Pat,

I was reading your Operation White Panther. But then all of a sudden it jumped about two years forward and you were married? What happened?
To make it short
After the trip i had related in Operation White Panther i came back to Dnipro in less than 3 months.
I never saw again the girl i met during the first trip, however i had some communication with her, but it didn't go anywhere. I could have been a backup for her but had no intention to be this one.

During the second trip among all the ladies i met i had a meeting with my (ex)  future wife for one hour, who was on my top list. It was great. But she never showed for a second meeting and i understood that she was having a local relationship.

I planned an other trip for the end of the year of 3 weeks in Kharkov.
Prior to this trip to maximize my prospects i open an account on Fdating. Immediately after my (ex) future wife wrote me three very sweet messages. I didn't really care, i was planning this trip in Kharkov and didn't consider her as serious. So basically i told her that i was busy for a month.
After Kharkov, where i stopped an emerging relationship with a beautiful lady of 39 because she was crazy i had two promising contacts. And at this moment my (ex) future wife restarted to contact me. There was so much gentleness and sweetness in her messages that you couldn't ignore her. I had three contacts and was perfectly aware that i had to visit one of them in the short term (less than 4 months).

Finally i thaught "let the communication goes by" and time will show us. After two weeks my (ex) future wife was sitting every evening in front of the computer, learning english as she was typing, to communicate with me. I have like a book of all the messages we exchanged on fdating and later on an other site. We spent countless hours typing.
In February 2012 i visited her for a week and we become engaged. She was in fact married with a local guy. She divorced from him two weeks after my trip.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: ML on October 30, 2019, 07:50:54 AM
She told me she's not a hooker and turned down men who offered her up to 20K for a night with her.

I would do it for 20K.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Patagonie on October 30, 2019, 08:10:06 AM
I would do it for 20K.
We know now how you made your fortune
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on October 30, 2019, 08:42:09 AM
oh my!!!
in his case, his "first million" really WAS the HARDEST!!!!

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: BillyB on October 30, 2019, 09:26:36 AM
I would do it for 20K.


How low will you go? I remember an FSU woman coming to the forum claiming heterosexual men would allow another man to have sex with them since everybody has a price. I said I would not have sex with another man for any amount of money. She didn't believe me. To convince her, I then told her my life was worth more than money and if I were prison and a guy wanted to have sex with me, he or I would be dead before I allow that to happen.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Trenchcoat on October 30, 2019, 05:26:01 PM
To make it short
After the trip i had related in Operation White Panther i came back to Dnipro in less than 3 months.
I never saw again the girl i met during the first trip, however i had some communication with her, but it didn't go anywhere. I could have been a backup for her but had no intention to be this one.

During the second trip among all the ladies i met i had a meeting with my (ex)  future wife for one hour, who was on my top list. It was great. But she never showed for a second meeting and i understood that she was having a local relationship.

I planned an other trip for the end of the year of 3 weeks in Kharkov.
Prior to this trip to maximize my prospects i open an account on Fdating. Immediately after my (ex) future wife wrote me three very sweet messages. I didn't really care, i was planning this trip in Kharkov and didn't consider her as serious. So basically i told her that i was busy for a month.
After Kharkov, where i stopped an emerging relationship with a beautiful lady of 39 because she was crazy i had two promising contacts. And at this moment my (ex) future wife restarted to contact me. There was so much gentleness and sweetness in her messages that you couldn't ignore her. I had three contacts and was perfectly aware that i had to visit one of them in the short term (less than 4 months).

Finally i thaught "let the communication goes by" and time will show us. After two weeks my (ex) future wife was sitting every evening in front of the computer, learning english as she was typing, to communicate with me. I have like a book of all the messages we exchanged on fdating and later on an other site. We spent countless hours typing.
In February 2012 i visited her for a week and we become engaged. She was in fact married with a local guy. She divorced from him two weeks after my trip.

Sounds like she wanted out from the guy she was with already for quite some time if she was communicating with you behind his back before you even met. Eager to get out of the country too possibly. I think any messages that are a bit on the sweet side before a guy meets a girl can be a warning sign. Not really talking about the over the top scammer/agency girl emails here but those from normal enough women. Since it's kind of strange that someone acts like that before meeting a guy without knowing him. I know some people buy into what they dream the guy to be like but I think in general it takes meeting first to become fond of someone.

A girl willing to ditch one guy in such a manner could be likely to do the same again. Assuming of course there was not valid reason for doing so like he beat her badly, etc. If a girl tells you the truth on that of course.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on October 30, 2019, 06:23:03 PM
Billy,

I signed up for Mamba. I have found it so far to be difficult to use. The search tool looks like it only finds 4 women in my entire state. I know this is wrong because I live in one of the most populated and popular states.

But then it flashes pictures by of women a Tinder type of select or reject type app.

Maybe I have to get a paying membership to actually use the search tool.

You think their would really be responsive to a guy in mid fifties? I have good photos and I am in good shape and have a well writtn profile.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: BillyB on October 30, 2019, 07:13:13 PM

The site isn't the easiest to use but check out the search filters and adjust them so you get more options. You should be able to search for all women in your state. Paying for a membership gives you more benefits though. I used the site extensively when I was in my late 30's. At your age you should still be getting responses from ladies who are attracted to you and can accept your age. If you're not clicking with ladies near you, search for FSU women in every State.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Trenchcoat on October 30, 2019, 07:45:34 PM
Billy,

I signed up for Mamba. I have found it so far to be difficult to use. The search tool looks like it only finds 4 women in my entire state. I know this is wrong because I live in one of the most populated and popular states.

But then it flashes pictures by of women a Tinder type of select or reject type app.

Maybe I have to get a paying membership to actually use the search tool.

You think their would really be responsive to a guy in mid fifties? I have good photos and I am in good shape and have a well writtn profile.

Scarface, Mamba is not the same animal as when Billy used to use it. About a year ago they changed it from a largely free site to a money making venture. Sure you can sign up and search for free locally but that is about all.

Even when you pay it's not that great anymore, it was way better when it was largely free. Beware that they have reoccurring subscription now and they try to hide that you are automatically signing up for this when you sign up and you won't get any reminder before they take the renewal money automatically from your account.

One of the main issues though is the functionality of the site, it has gone down a lot. Anyone over 40 is pushed into age brackets of 10 years (at least they were still doing this when I used the site 6 months ago). That means that a lot of girls in their thirties cut of guys over 40. As you will be in the 50-59 age bracket you may find it even harder to find profiles of women that accept communication from that age group. Any outside the age group they specify are blocked.

You could try Elena's models they can have some on there, also Match & POF, but watch out for scammers. Fdate might have some as they are supposed to be 'International'. Other than that they may be local Orthodox Churches in your area or Russian and/or Ukrainian meet up groups, you could look up on Facebook on this perhaps or Google.

I think Fdate while letting the girl state an age range still let guys contact them. In which case I would with whoever takes your interest as it's no big deal for them to pass if they so wish.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Patagonie on October 31, 2019, 01:07:25 AM
Scarface, Mamba is not the same animal as when Billy used to use it. About a year ago they changed it from a largely free site to a money making venture. Sure you can sign up and search for free locally but that is about all.

Even when you pay it's not that great anymore, it was way better when it was largely free. Beware that they have reoccurring subscription now and they try to hide that you are automatically signing up for this when you sign up and you won't get any reminder before they take the renewal money automatically from your account.

One of the main issues though is the functionality of the site, it has gone down a lot. Anyone over 40 is pushed into age brackets of 10 years (at least they were still doing this when I used the site 6 months ago). That means that a lot of girls in their thirties cut of guys over 40. As you will be in the 50-59 age bracket you may find it even harder to find profiles of women that accept communication from that age group. Any outside the age group they specify are blocked.

You could try Elena's models they can have some on there, also Match & POF, but watch out for scammers. Fdate might have some as they are supposed to be 'International'. Other than that they may be local Orthodox Churches in your area or Russian and/or Ukrainian meet up groups, you could look up on Facebook on this perhaps or Google.

I think Fdate while letting the girl state an age range still let guys contact them. In which case I would with whoever takes your interest as it's no big deal for them to pass if they so wish.
Good post Trench
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Patagonie on October 31, 2019, 01:25:02 AM
Sounds like she wanted out from the guy she was with already for quite some time if she was communicating with you behind his back before you even met. Eager to get out of the country too possibly. I think any messages that are a bit on the sweet side before a guy meets a girl can be a warning sign. Not really talking about the over the top scammer/agency girl emails here but those from normal enough women. Since it's kind of strange that someone acts like that before meeting a guy without knowing him. I know some people buy into what they dream the guy to be like but I think in general it takes meeting first to become fond of someone.

A girl willing to ditch one guy in such a manner could be likely to do the same again. Assuming of course there was not valid reason for doing so like he beat her badly, etc. If a girl tells you the truth on that of course.
Don't want to hijack the topic but
Ex wife is the only one to be capable to answer to your questions. And i have no doubt that she will never tell you the truth.
What i am sure is that she had damned love me.

Now what is sure also, read carefully.

A/ Many men believe hardly that their women were not playing games during their dating stage (games includes the intellectual notion of several courtships and physical notion of one or more fucker).
Some women do it some not, some do it and consider that there are no lie as you are not aware and so on, but for sure, the ONES who are lying to themselves are the men, all time.

B/ A coach i met 12 years ago explained me  that women are not likely to date men one by one, they create a pool, when this is possible and it's often possible, and get the next guy before leaving the previous one.

You face this real world or not. That the game, and they are largely better than us.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on October 31, 2019, 07:10:37 AM
Trench thanks for the update. That was helpful. It looks like Mamba is not really an option for finding FSU women in the US. I will try FDate. Does anyone else know of a decent resource for finding FSU women in the US?

I have some local American women I am looking into for the time being. Got another date on Sunday night.. But I got the itch, and I am curious about the route that Billy took to find FSU women in the US.

Pat, interesting comment. I have heard this called monkey branching where attractive women with options have a pool of men to choose from and will not let go of one before grabbing onto another one. I have witnessed this before.

Billy I am reading your epic thread and i am fascinated by your adventure. But even more fascinated by the behavior of your commentors and armchair quarterbacks sniping and haranguing you every step of the way. It is a revealing study in human nature and how the group punishes the individual who dares step out of line. Lol

They will do almost anything to hurt you one moment while telling you they wish you well the next moment. Lol
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Boethius on October 31, 2019, 11:26:35 AM
A coach i met 12 years ago explained me  that women are not likely to date men one by one, they create a pool, when this is possible and it's often possible, and get the next guy before leaving the previous one.


Your coach didn't understand women well.


The vast majority of women do date men one at a time, unless they are dating very casually.  There are always outliers in everything in life, but your description is not the norm in female behaviour.


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Trenchcoat on October 31, 2019, 12:39:16 PM

Your coach didn't understand women well.


The vast majority of women do date men one at a time, unless they are dating very casually.  There are always outliers in everything in life, but your description is not the norm in female behaviour.


This post was composed without the aid of google.

They may not actually get with the other guy(s) in the pool or next branch, but I have had had this happen to varying extents and see it occasionally.

At the moment there is a girl who started where I work a few months ago. She was the one who first initiated conversation with me and continued to do so for a number of weeks. She's shown interest in me both in this manner and visually, plus the odd clue here & there.

Yet she has a bf and what more lives with him in a small rented flat. I get the impression that while she is not wanting to break up with him here and now she is also not especially set on him.

Can I go for her, I could, I could up my game, but it's a big no, no, even I know that. It would mean that we both would be ready to pick up & drop on the fly with no loyalty which would likely end up finishing any relationship started. She essentially would have to split up with her bf and him probably move out, first. If I were to ask her out and she accepted that would be cheating, so a no go.

She no doubt knows all of this so she knows she can keep dating her bf and keep me in reserve as either in her pool of guys or the next branch. I'm pretty sure she hasn't got a big pool of guys in reserve as she is not one for extrovert entertainment unlike a lot of girls.

I don't blame girls for doing this, if you can then I'm sure most people would. I have been one of the guys in reserve for some pretty hot girls over time, but never landed one of these hotties as they pick the guy they see as coming top end in terms of looks, social skills, wealth, etc which I have not. For the hottest girls it can be a case of the more guys they can have interested in them the more their status rises. They know that's how they get the best choice if they can do so, not all girls can - the least attractive girls won't be able to pool guys. At the end of the day though women use this method to get a choice and choose the guy they want rather than have no options at hand if a relationship fails.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: ML on October 31, 2019, 12:46:27 PM
WOW, I didn't know this was so complicated and planned out !!!
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Trenchcoat on October 31, 2019, 01:02:49 PM
WOW, I didn't know this was so complicated and planned out !!!

I think for women it is or becomes pretty obvious and straight forward, probably almost subconscious, a learned behaviour that is seen as natural and straight forward. I think its more like they get to know a guy or give a guy the eye they like but they know nothing may come of it, it doesn't bother them nor do they expend much effort usually. Some just chat to guys as friends and acquaintances and don't care if it doesn't evolve into anything. It's not a guaranteed thing for them but they know subconsciously at least that they can take comfort from that pool of guys being there. They don't know if all are necessarily available but should they become single one of them sooner or later will likely stump up.

That's why even reasonably attractive girls can change bf's more often than they change their underwear.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Boethius on October 31, 2019, 01:12:50 PM
Women are conditioned to be "nice", to not hurt others' feelings, to not rock the boat, etc.. 


When I was young, I often had men like you, Trench, assume that talking to them, and showing interest in what they actually said, was a come on.  It never was in my case. I never flirted with other men.  I never had an interest in any other man, ever, ever, ever, once I met the better half.  But, I was interested in what others (men and women) had to say, and I navigated the world of men.  Most of my colleagues are, and were, men.  Most of my clients are men. 


There is a very slight chance that girl is flirting with you and wants more from you.  But, it is more likely nothing more than a little flirting, or just feigning interest because that is what "nice" girls do. 


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: BillyB on October 31, 2019, 04:09:25 PM
It looks like Mamba is not really an option for finding FSU women in the US.


There are tons of FSU women on Mamba located in the US. I'm surprised you're only finding a few in your area. Trench may have a point there's now a cost and less people will sign up but like any dating or marriage site, the place is a tool and some guys use the tool better than others. Regardless what sites you end up using, if you use it better than the other guys, you will increase your chances of success.

Billy I am reading your epic thread and i am fascinated by your adventure. But even more fascinated by the behavior of your commentors and armchair quarterbacks sniping and haranguing you every step of the way. It is a revealing study in human nature and how the group punishes the individual who dares step out of line. Lol


One of the best things about the thread is those who read it learn about themselves. I knew it would upset people but I also knew it would not upset people from the FSU. You will see people read the same thing and some people are fine with it and others go berserk. Pay attention and you will see FSU women not bothered by how I handled my dating life and some Westerners were very bothered. All is fair in love and war but some still have their rules. Some hated my rules and some respected me for doing whatever it took to find the best person for my life. I did not disclose everything either. It would've drove some people really mad.

I wrote my thread in real time. Many people wait till they get into a relationship before writing their report of success. I knew I was going to be successful in the end. I was successful as a single man and gave myself a lot of women to choose from so I knew when I make a decision, it would blow people's minds. If you haven't finished the thread, the attacks gets worse and the praise gets better.

Although I knew I'd be successful, I didn't know exactly who it be with. I almost passed up my wife. I had set up an agreement with two girls from Russia to live with me. During college break, they were coming to America on a work travel visa. A girl living in Libya asked me to visit her during her vacation in Ukraine. I told that girl I need to learn more about her before making that decision. The two college girls made a stop in NY to visit friends. They told me their friends convinced them to stay in NY and work there so they weren't coming to stay with me. Although I was dating other women at home, I decided to see the girl from Libya in Ukraine. It went well and now she's my wife. Never know what fate has in store. My wife knows I been dating other women during my early communications with her. She knows man has needs but she's not jealous.

Relationships may not last forever and if mine doesn't, I know I can do what you're reading in my thread again and again and again and blow people's minds with the girl I end up with. That thread eventually gets locked due to fighting but I continued the story in these threads.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=14829.0

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=19800.0
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on November 08, 2019, 11:35:40 AM
I am intrigued by the WM/VM approach even though I am not ready to make another trip. I am thinking about changing my strategy.

I figure if I do a visit I need to stay around 4 weeks or more to really get deeper into the process.

Also how many women do you think I would need to line up for a VM approach 10? 15?

Also if I go the plan b route are there any suggestions for a plan b? Agencies? Meet them there on the street? If so is there any recommended?

How about AFA socials? I know AFA may have a bad reputation on here understandably and I know they are PPL and I would not do that. But I have heard that you can get quite a few contacts at a social. And this does appear like an opportunity to meet the woman and get face to face with her in the beginning and start the vetting process. What do you guys think?
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Gator on November 08, 2019, 12:05:45 PM
My first  trip happened in 1986 to meet a Dutch embassy friend.   My first trip to meet women came in 2002, and I spent a month visiting Kiev, Crimea, St. Petersburg, and Moscow.

I spent months before talking with multiple women in each area.  I selected one primary woman in each city, who had promised to take a couple of days off from work to spend with me.  I had a secondary choice as backup, and managed to meet all of them plus some others.  Usually this was just for lunch in downtime, yet one became an eager replacement.     

Three women expressed much interest and we continued to talk after my return to the US. 

That was a long time ago when women were keen to met foreigners.  I don't know if my plan would work today.     
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: BillyB on November 08, 2019, 03:11:43 PM
I am intrigued by the WM/VM approach even though I am not ready to make another trip.


Before writing women overseas, you should have an idea on when you can make a trip. You should be willing to change your game plan if necessary. I wrote very many. I was willing to date a few in a city or if I found a high quality woman, I was willing to give her all my attention should I plan to visit and keep the others as backup plans. Go ahead and communicate with many women but if you find a winner, you better be ready to make a trip before another guy does.

Also if I go the plan b route are there any suggestions for a plan b? Agencies? Meet them there on the street? If so is there any recommended?


Agencies can be a plan B but I found I could be busy enough meeting women on the street or using dating sites online. If I tried hard enough, I could get three phone numbers a day which would lead to 3 dates a day.

How about AFA socials? I know AFA may have a bad reputation on here understandably and I know they are PPL and I would not do that. But I have heard that you can get quite a few contacts at a social. And this does appear like an opportunity to meet the woman and get face to face with her in the beginning and start the vetting process. What do you guys think?

Some women who go to socials aren't serious but go there because they're curious or for the free food, and who knows, they may land a man. There are also good time girls, green card girls, and gold diggers at those events. Those women are aggressive and tend to hog the attention. Some quiet sincere women end up leaving crying. I've never been to a social but these are some of the horror stories I've read on forums. It's worked for some men though.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on November 10, 2019, 10:55:58 PM
Thanks. That makes sense.
Title: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: 2tallbill on November 11, 2019, 10:00:23 AM
I am intrigued by the WM/VM approach even though I am not ready to make another trip. I am thinking about changing my strategy.

I figure if I do a visit I need to stay around 4 weeks or more to really get deeper into the process.

Also how many women do you think I would need to line up for a VM approach 10? 15?

Also if I go the plan b route are there any suggestions for a plan b? Agencies? Meet them there on the street? If so is there any recommended?

How about AFA socials? I know AFA may have a bad reputation on here understandably and I know they are PPL and I would not do that. But I have heard that you can get quite a few contacts at a social. And this does appear like an opportunity to meet the woman and get face to face with her in the beginning and start the vetting process. What do you guys think?


I start outlining my view of the VM process on reply #36, but read the entire thread.
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=14615.25

Short version: Pick a nice sized city, buy tickets and rent an apartment.
A week before you get on a plane, ask 50-100 women to meet you for
tea.

Don't meet any women the first time for dinner on top of the tallest building.
Meet in a cafe, have coffee or tea and cake if you need to sweeten the deal.
If you have chemistry and you think that she's the real deal, then you ask
her out again. If you don't, lose her contact information, I don't care if she's
the hottest woman you've ever seen.

Don't date a so-so girl twice. You can find a so-so girl at home. Pursuing FSUW
is so that you can find an exceptional girl.

Rinse and repeat as necessary.

The advantage to this is that you see if you have chemistry up front. The
disadvantage, is that you have to come back soon and get to know the
girl with the chemistry.

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: jone on November 11, 2019, 11:26:07 AM
I would add to that, have a small token of your esteem to share with her.   Even if you are meeting only for tea.  It could be flowers.  It could be a small box of chocolates brought from home.   Any time you meet a woman, it is important to focus on the little things that will peak her interest.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Patagonie on November 11, 2019, 02:09:26 PM
I am intrigued by the WM/VM approach even though I am not ready to make another trip. I am thinking about changing my strategy.

I figure if I do a visit I need to stay around 4 weeks or more to really get deeper into the process.

Also how many women do you think I would need to line up for a VM approach 10? 15?

Also if I go the plan b route are there any suggestions for a plan b? Agencies? Meet them there on the street? If so is there any recommended?

How about AFA socials? I know AFA may have a bad reputation on here understandably and I know they are PPL and I would not do that. But I have heard that you can get quite a few contacts at a social. And this does appear like an opportunity to meet the woman and get face to face with her in the beginning and start the vetting process. What do you guys think?
Forget about AFA entirely, they bring every women possible, the most genuine ones will feel so ashamed that they will hide at a corner while the most naked ones, pro, scammers will hit on you, or maybe some translators invited to do the job.

Choose a city is a strategy i used, but you need to choose FIRST the city, carefully, and AFTER you work on the girls. And if you want to use an agency, so you choose the city accordingly to the agency BECAUSE this a good agency (do your homework before). It doesn't prevent you to get some butter in the pasta by chasing through social applications, dating sites or events or coffees or whatever you want. And also maybe prepare a good terp, easy to find. Choose an old lady in her fourties or fifties. Every scammers will run away so fast seing her that bystanders will get a cold.

If you mix all i said and stay one month you will not probably do more than 15 meetings, depends if you have the complex of the candy store and your social skills. Generally after less than 10 meetings you find one you like and you decide to make a stop on her. After one or two weeks you start to realize that is not gonna to work and you restart dating.

Don't forget that dating is emotionally highly tiring, or you do it that like drinking a beer. I think that is disrespecting girls and the time and money you have put in the trip of course.
What happens also generally is that western men are so submerged by the caring provided by a FSU woman that they fall for her, a mistake of course.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: msmob on November 12, 2019, 06:32:41 AM
Unless you are confident, the VM approach is a waste of time ..

It is madness to pitch up in a city and to hope to get dates - if you lack in confidence and your Russian is poor

Beel has confidence and knows basic Russian

*I* am not lacking in confidence and *I* found the VM  approach to be v.tiring and too much of a llogistical ( time-wise) nightmare ..


You'll need a spreadsheet to remember their ( if they have any ) kid's names - otherwise you'll appear inattentive / not interested

This is MY advice based on MY experience of attempting VM in Kyiv in 2004 - it was only a 3 hour flight from Cyprus and I could do weekends away
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on November 12, 2019, 01:27:22 PM
Thanks. This gives me a lot to think about. And I am still spending some time with a local girl right now. So i want to see how this develops. But i still have that itch. Don't know what it is. Hmmmmm...
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Patagonie on November 12, 2019, 02:39:41 PM
Unless you are confident, the VM approach is a waste of time ..

It is madness to pitch up in a city and to hope to get dates - if you lack in confidence and your Russian is poor

Beel has confidence and knows basic Russian

*I* am not lacking in confidence and *I* found the VM  approach to be v.tiring and too much of a llogistical ( time-wise) nightmare ..


You'll need a spreadsheet to remember their ( if they have any ) kid's names - otherwise you'll appear inattentive / not interested

This is MY advice based on MY experience of attempting VM in Kyiv in 2004 - it was only a 3 hour flight from Cyprus and I could do weekends away
We have difference of opinions of course with MSOB lol but some of his remarks are pertinent.
If you are not capable to manage high stress and high emotions, if you dislike incomfort in your life maybe VM is not for you.
You should have also some confidence, more than average chaps.

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: ML on November 12, 2019, 02:54:31 PM
Unless you are confident, the VM approach is a waste of time ..

It is madness to pitch up in a city and to hope to get dates - if you lack in confidence and your Russian is poor

Beel has confidence and knows basic Russian

*I* am not lacking in confidence and *I* found the VM  approach to be v.tiring and too much of a logistical ( time-wise) nightmare ..


You'll need a spreadsheet to remember their ( if they have any ) kid's names - otherwise you'll appear inattentive / not interested

This is MY advice based on MY experience of attempting VM in Kyiv in 2004 - it was only a 3 hour flight from Cyprus and I could do weekends away

I did VM many times . . . and with 12 or more women each time.
I did not have the problems listed above.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: msmob on November 13, 2019, 02:38:52 AM
Perhaps they didn't all want to meet you again? )
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on November 13, 2019, 06:53:05 AM
Isn't that the point of the excercise?
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: ML on November 13, 2019, 07:58:28 AM
Perhaps they didn't all want to meet you again? )

I only recall 2 out of hundreds who declined my invitation for a 2nd or 3rd date.
I didn't extend such invitation for most of the first date gals.

One of these 2 (in declining 3rd meeting) even hinted that I was not good enough at sex (which happened on 2nd date).

However, in my defense, it was mostly her fault because she wanted to give me instructions, etc., which messed up my performance.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Gator on November 13, 2019, 08:47:36 AM
Perhaps they didn't all want to meet you again? )

I would think the feeling mutual. 

Not having the luxury of a mere 3-hour flight, I chose VM to increase the probability of finding someone special.   A woman may look great on paper and in photos, and she may seem intriguing on Skype, yet the all important factor of "chemistry" requires spending time together, for which there is no substitute. 

Going VM also avoids becoming too optimistic about what is literally a blind date.  Optimism can blind me from flaws. 

Did VM thrice.  Each time I found someone with whom I pursued in future meetings on an exclusive basis.  Each time there were a couple of women for whom I held some hope, only to have the hope dash within an hour if not minutes. 
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Gator on November 13, 2019, 08:53:26 AM
In recognition of VM VO advocates, I recall three of RWD's best love stories being a WOVO.  They happened before Skype and the correspondence lasted months and months.   The fact that two people would be willing to dedicate such time for lengthy, frequent, interesting and heart-filled letters says something about their compatibility.

[edited to correct that I meant to write VO ]
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: ML on November 13, 2019, 09:00:05 AM
In recognition of VM advocates, I recall three of RWD's best love stories being a WOVO.  They happened before Skype and the correspondence lasted months and months.   The fact that two people would be willing to dedicate such time for lengthy, frequent, interesting and heart-filled letters says something about their compatibility.

Did you mean to say 'VO advocates?'
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Trenchcoat on November 13, 2019, 11:03:14 AM
I am intrigued by the WM/VM approach even though I am not ready to make another trip. I am thinking about changing my strategy.

I figure if I do a visit I need to stay around 4 weeks or more to really get deeper into the process.

Also how many women do you think I would need to line up for a VM approach 10? 15?

Also if I go the plan b route are there any suggestions for a plan b? Agencies? Meet them there on the street? If so is there any recommended?

How about AFA socials? I know AFA may have a bad reputation on here understandably and I know they are PPL and I would not do that. But I have heard that you can get quite a few contacts at a social. And this does appear like an opportunity to meet the woman and get face to face with her in the beginning and start the vetting process. What do you guys think?

For VM Scarface you are going to have to be able to turf up the number of girls this approach needs. I generally can't do it in most FSU cities, I met 2 women using this approach over the course of 2 weeks holiday in Lviv. Lviv is a small city in western Ukraine. A far better place would be Moscow, it's by far the biggest city in the whole of the FSU, millions live there. So that is where an everyday day looking guy like me could meet many more women, but a lot will be career women and/or have way higher expectations so it would be best if you earned a lot if you went there.

Visit ones are nice but the odds of meeting a girl where there is chemistry is low. It's really a numbers thing. If a girl seems compatible in communication and her interests that might raise the odds possibly.

I don't think tours are a bad idea BUT they are probably best after you have met a few FSW so you know the types of women you can get and what you are dealing with. All of the above comments on tours I can imagine are pretty accurate. You will need to suss out pretty quickly the good girls from the bad, or the agency & scammer girls from the everyday nice girls and not get caught up in the flashiness of the 'hotties' there.

If you've not watched it already the 2014 documentary 'Love Me' gives a good insight into the romance tours. Basically one guy got caught by a scammer girl while another got a nice character but not all that attractive looking girl. Another guy got a nice girl who wanted a better life and since he earned a bit they kind of went well together also.

I may well try a tour next year as you get the women up there. I've got a fair bit of experience at FSU dating so know what to avoid. It's one way of getting the numbers up but of course costs a bit more and cones with the pitfalls pointed out above.

Should also add SF that a lot of the guys going on the tours are quite old. While anyone could have a realistic chance the odds of a young girl in her twenties wanting to genuinely get with a guy in his sixties or older are not good. Hence why they get attention there not so likely from genuine girls but the scammers, even younger guys however may fall prey to the scammer girls as they can shine brighter. I recall SF you are about 45, that's ok for the tour but I'll'd say be realistic with girls you could get.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Gator on November 13, 2019, 11:18:14 AM
Did you mean to say 'VO advocates?'

Corrected, thanks.  Multi-tasking.
Title: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: 2tallbill on November 13, 2019, 02:45:54 PM
And I am still spending some time with a local girl right now. So i want to see how this develops. But i still have that itch. Don't know what it is. Hmmmmm...

That's because the local girl is a so-so girl, but gives you
some sex. If the local girl was a Holy crap! This might be
the perfect girl for me! Then we would have never heard
from you again.

In my opinion, the local girl is a time waster, both for you
and for her.

Udachi!

Bill
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: 2tallbill on November 13, 2019, 03:10:59 PM
I did VM many times . . . and with 12 or more women each time.
I did not have the problems listed above.

I haven't met you in person, but I would categorize you as having
confidence (the same with Gator). So in that respect Moby has a
point. Some guys might not have the skills to do a visit many trip.

My VM methods differs 10-15% from yours but the skills required
are the same. To meet new woman multiple times per day and
decide

1. Do we have mutual chemistry?
2. Is she trying to pull something? 
3. Should I ask her out again?
All while you are engaging her in a back and forth conversation
making her laugh and sizing her up as she is performing an
interrogation of her own.
4. A certain amount of organization is needed.
5. A certain level of social skills is needed.
6. Decision making ability is needed.

What are the mistakes that the unskilled do? 
1. They use visit one tactics with a visit many strategy
2. Meet several women and ask out the hottest one again
and again. Regardless of her level of interest. 
3. Recycle girls
4. Get engaged with the first girl to drop her knickers.
5. Can't make a decision
6. Can't dump a hot girl with problems/issues
7. WASTE TIME

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: 2tallbill on November 13, 2019, 04:00:03 PM
I am intrigued by the WM/VM approach even though I am not ready to make another trip. I am thinking about changing my strategy.

I would advise you to avoid the MOB industry cities like Odessa, Kiev,
Nikolaev and such. Pick a city like Minsk, St Peterburg, Almaty, etc.


How about AFA socials? I know AFA may have a bad reputation on here understandably and I know they are PPL and I would not do that. But I have heard that you can get quite a few contacts at a social. And this does appear like an opportunity to meet the woman and get face to face with her in the beginning and start the vetting process. What do you guys think?

If you want to try a social then contact Mark Davis at Dream Connections
http://www.dreamconnections.com/quest/index.php

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Gator on November 13, 2019, 04:20:22 PM

2. Is she trying to pull something? 


This was obvious to me,  whether she had small or large hands.  :devil:

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: ML on November 13, 2019, 05:14:02 PM

4. Get engaged with the first girl to drop her knickers.


Yes, wait for the gal who doesn't wear knickers.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: 2tallbill on November 13, 2019, 05:27:30 PM
Yes, wait for the gal who doesn't wear knickers.

You'll have a long wait if you go between November and February.
In August, not so long.

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: jone on November 13, 2019, 05:33:23 PM
Men's knickers are a lot different from women's knickers.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: msmob on November 14, 2019, 02:15:40 AM
I am confident and I have met ladies that behaved totally different on day 2 and 3 to day 1...

A VM exercise might of met with an 'elimination' on day 1 and fond memories I would never have had.

It is mid-November in Russia and in one part ( Sochi) the ladies are still on the beaches... and the bikini bottoms are small to ensure minimal white bits. The tops are for 'modesty' when swimming.

Why are the single guys going to Kyiv and big 'cold' cities at this time of year?

(http://i.imgur.com/tOnbKd3.jpg)

Taken a few mins ago..My 'wake up' call..

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Patagonie on November 14, 2019, 02:22:32 AM
I haven't met you in person, but I would categorize you as having
confidence (the same with Gator). So in that respect Moby has a
point. Some guys might not have the skills to do a visit many trip.

My VM methods differs 10-15% from yours but the skills required
are the same. To meet new woman multiple times per day and
decide

1. Do we have mutual chemistry?
2. Is she trying to pull something? 
3. Should I ask her out again?
All while you are engaging her in a back and forth conversation
making her laugh and sizing her up as she is performing an
interrogation of her own.
4. A certain amount of organization is needed.
5. A certain level of social skills is needed.
6. Decision making ability is needed.

What are the mistakes that the unskilled do? 
1. They use visit one tactics with a visit many strategy
2. Meet several women and ask out the hottest one again
and again. Regardless of her level of interest. 
3. Recycle girls
4. Get engaged with the first girl to drop her knickers.
5. Can't make a decision
6. Can't dump a hot girl with problems/issues
7. WASTE TIME
Good summarize Beeeeeeeel !
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: BillyB on November 14, 2019, 08:57:43 AM

Moby, in the past people on the internet ripped on you for showing pics of your woman in a bikini. I defended you and said there's nothing wrong with Moby being proud of his woman. Taking photos of your nude woman(Is she your wife yet?), cropping the photos so the nipples don't show and showing them to the world is not necessary to show she's got a rocking body.
Title: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: 2tallbill on November 14, 2019, 09:35:15 AM
I am confident and I have met ladies that behaved totally different on day 2 and 3 to day 1...

Of course you have, everybody does, but the chemistry is either present
or not. If there isn't any chemistry however, you move on avoiding the
whole getting to know them work.


A VM exercise might of met with an 'elimination' on day 1 and fond memories I
would never have had.

You've been successful, using your preferred method. It's the best strategy
for you, your situation, personality and goals.

Why are the single guys going to Kyiv and big 'cold' cities at this time of year?

I know a guy from Florida who flew to Omsk or Novosibirsk (I forget which one) in
January, because that's where the girl was. It didn't work out, but he didn't want
to wait till later to meet her. 

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Trenchcoat on November 14, 2019, 09:42:52 AM
I am confident and I have met ladies that behaved totally different on day 2 and 3 to day 1...

A VM exercise might of met with an 'elimination' on day 1 and fond memories I would never have had.

It is mid-November in Russia and in one part ( Sochi) the ladies are still on the beaches... and the bikini bottoms are small to ensure minimal white bits. The tops are for 'modesty' when swimming.

Why are the single guys going to Kyiv and big 'cold' cities at this time of year?


True, for Pat in Kiev if he is still there the cold weather must be biting in a bit now. I've never been there when it gets real cold. Perhaps in winter around their Christmas it might look attractive in a snowy festive sort of way. Now I'm imagining it may look a bit gloomy this time if the year.

On the other hand I guess 2tallbill has been right in the past in pointing out that there is less competition in the winter. I wouldn't mind going now in the winter now I am more familiar with the place but I'm glad I didn't when starting out on this venture.

Sochi is not a bad idea Moby, maybe I'll come out and join you ;D Hey, how about enticing me by taking a pic of some of those younger hottie girls on the beach and posting it up for us :D
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: msmob on November 14, 2019, 09:50:03 AM
Moby, in the past people on the internet ripped on you for showing pics of your woman in a bikini. I defended you and said there's nothing wrong with Moby being proud of his woman. Taking photos of your nude woman(Is she your wife yet?), cropping the photos so the nipples don't show and showing them to the world is not necessary to show she's got a rocking body.

Poor 'ol BillyB

1/ I've not got some sort of weird agreement not to post photos together with my wife - as you claim - yet you - in the earliest days did EXACTLY that ..it was hardly worthy of mention - until this brainfart moment of yours

2/ I think you mean 'ripped into me' .. ?  Not that I was / am 'bovvered '

3/ She is not 'nude' - are you BLIND ?

4/ I realise it may be damp and miserable in the NW corner of the US ...   it certainly was not beach weather in the west of England - we had some snow - but if you walk down a beach in Europe ( when sunny) this is typical of what you'll see ...   

5/ She is NOT my wife yet, and did you STILL not get an invite ? ..

6/ I did indeed 'crop' the photo - as even *I* understand a chapel-hat church-peg impression two might upset .. this might be deemed 'excessive' ...( not that she would care a hoot)   

7/ SC thinks she has put on too much  weight - so it is 'nice' of you ..


Naturally, I posted said photo knowing it would elicit a comment - probably from a pseudo pious person ..


She was modelling some wedding dresses, yesterday evening -  may be this will offend' you, less..?




(http://i.imgur.com/6x25i7k.jpg)


Those of us in the colder parts of the northern hemisphere can now see that Sochi is not 'normal' for the FSU in mid Nov...   But may be worth checking out ..?

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: msmob on November 14, 2019, 09:55:26 AM


Sochi is not a bad idea Moby, maybe I'll come out and join you ;D Hey, how about enticing me by taking a pic of some of those younger hottie girls on the beach and posting it up for us :D

I only post bikini shots of my beloved ;)    You'll be too late for this year ...  Best place to see bikini clad Russians will be Thailand, now
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on November 14, 2019, 10:11:35 AM
Point about the MOB cities. Easier to avoid that whole industry altogether. Some people say that most attractive women in FSU have had some sort if contact with the MOB industry.

Other people say that it is only a small slice of the attractive 40+ female population. What are your thoughts?

Also on your comments about my local girl are correct. She is a bit young for me and yes she does not excite me that much. I agree I want someone who floats my boat.

In the past few weeks I have had two women want to fix me up with friends. But when I see photos of them i have no interest in meeting them at all. Age appropriate women in my area are rough looking.

Finally on the FSU women in the US pickings are slim online. So far Russian Cupid may be the biggest source but even there it's slim. And i live in a state with many FSU people.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: msmob on November 14, 2019, 10:17:20 AM
Point about the MOB cities. Easier to avoid that whole industry altogether. Some people say that most attractive women in FSU have had some sort if contact with the MOB industry.

Then do not listen to 'some people' ..   Most attractive 40 plus women in the FSU know their value and do not feel the need to waste their time meeting guys they do not wish to meet..

Agencies are a WASTE of MONEY - a thing of the past ..

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on November 14, 2019, 10:20:10 AM
 Never used an agency and do not intend to.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: msmob on November 14, 2019, 10:28:27 AM
I don't even think there is such a thing as a 'MoB' city ...MoB is an out-dated and inaccurate term for potential brides who advertise themselves

Sure, cities like Luhansk and -  more recently - Odesa  mave have had more agencies.. but, there are good women to be found in any city
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Trenchcoat on November 14, 2019, 10:45:31 AM
Point about the MOB cities. Easier to avoid that whole industry altogether. Some people say that most attractive women in FSU have had some sort if contact with the MOB industry.

Other people say that it is only a small slice of the attractive 40+ female population. What are your thoughts?

Also on your comments about my local girl are correct. She is a bit young for me and yes she does not excite me that much. I agree I want someone who floats my boat.

In the past few weeks I have had two women want to fix me up with friends. But when I see photos of them i have no interest in meeting them at all. Age appropriate women in my area are rough looking.

Finally on the FSU women in the US pickings are slim online. So far Russian Cupid may be the biggest source but even there it's slim. And i live in a state with many FSU people.

You've pretty much clinched it SF. I realised a year or so ago that it was generally the photos of the hottest girls on FSU International Dating sites to avoid. Some are fake as I found there VK profile and researched through and found out there a billboard model or similar in Ukraine and that was what the photo was off. Others are so pretty they have or still have some involved in the Agency MOB industry. The rest often either have their own agenda that does not include anything that ends up well for you or are so materialistic all local guys have passed over them or she has passed over the local guys that are too poor for her. It's why I chose to start avoiding messaging the 8-10 model looking women, many will be inundated with post unless she is out in a provincial city but in general rarely will they amount to good news.

A real wealthy millionaire guy may be able to satisfy the materialistic girls but that seems to be about as good as it gets.

The 5-7 girls that look more authentic look a better bet to me. They will get less attention so will place greater meaning on a guy who puts in the trouble and time. They can be better than the real hot girls as you're not always wondering why they are with you, if they are being genuine, up to their own agenda or just with you as they are after stuff. Plus you'll get less bother from other guys trying to crack onto them now and in the future. They can still be relatively nice to look at and if there is chemistry there then that's really is the main thing. Even a 4 looks wise can make for a good mate if there is the chemistry there and to you she looks attractive.

With finding a Russian lady in your home country, well they are there but not in the numbers they are back home. Most will be divorcees and the omens there may not be good. As they are convenient to hand then they will be being spoilt by being open to the big pool of single men in the west. So not really a lot better than the present dating situation of dating on Match etc at home which is cr*p. Generally to get more of a chance you've got to go abroad and pluck the apple straight from the tree rather than going to the nearby barrel at home.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on November 14, 2019, 10:54:57 AM
I don't even think there is such a thing as a 'MoB' city ...MoB is an out-dated and inaccurate term for potential brides who advertise themselves

Sure, cities like Luhansk and -  more recently - Odesa  mave have had more agencies.. but, there are good women to be found in any city

I was referring to what 2 tall bill said. About the term MOB I think everyone knows what I mean.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: msmob on November 14, 2019, 12:16:27 PM
If you 'understand' it - why do you and others demean yourselves by continuing it's use ? ;)
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: jone on November 14, 2019, 12:22:07 PM
Of course you have, everybody does, but the chemistry is either present
or not. If there isn't any chemistry however, you move on avoiding the
whole getting to know them work.


You've been successful, using your preferred method. It's the best strategy
for you, your situation, personality and goals.

I know a guy from Florida who flew to Omsk or Novosibirsk (I forget which one) in
January, because that's where the girl was. It didn't work out, but he didn't want
to wait till later to meet her.

It was Tomsk.   Been in touch with the guy.   He's always fun to talk to.
Title: What to do now
Post by: 2tallbill on November 14, 2019, 08:42:12 PM
Point about the MOB cities. Easier to avoid that whole industry altogether. Some people say that most attractive women in FSU have had some sort if contact with the MOB industry.

That's not accurate. The vast majority of women in the FSU have zero contact
with the MOB industry.

Other people say that it is only a small slice of the attractive 40+ female population.
What are your thoughts?

I'm 58 and Angel Eyes is 45 now. When we met Angel Eyes was 38 and I was 51.
The girl I originally went to see was 35 (I think, but don't remember for sure).

There is an age where most FSU men don't pursue FSUW with serious intentions
of marriage. I'm not sure where that age begins and it is probably a sliding scale
based on looks and other features plus whether they have children or not.

There are a ton of women who are over that sliding age who would like to be
married but have limited options and you can find a sincere and a very high
quality woman in that group.

I don't know you age and can't give more specific advice without it.

Also on your comments about my local girl are correct. She is a bit young for me and
yes she does not excite me that much. I agree I want someone who floats my boat.

I surmised as much.

In the past few weeks I have had two women want to fix me up with friends.

If you need motivation to travel to the FSU, then go on a few of those dates.
There are no worse source for fixups than Western women, but fixups in general
don't work. Only you know what makes you tick and what you want. I do advise
putting your goals down on paper about what you want. I wouldn't share them here
because the peanut gallery will beat you up over half of them.

So make a list along with what you would compromise on and what you wouldn't.
Put character at the top of the list. You can compromise on anything besides that.
You want somebody that shares your values. The rest of the list is up to you, but
I advise that you (or newbies reading this thread) go to the effort of making the
list.

Finally on the FSU women in the US pickings are slim online. So far Russian Cupid may
be the biggest source but even there it's slim. And i live in a state with many FSU people.

Then go to the FSU, that's where FSUW are made.

Udachi!

Bill
Title: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: 2tallbill on November 14, 2019, 08:44:33 PM
It was Tomsk.   Been in touch with the guy.   He's always fun to talk to.

That's right it was Tomsk
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on November 15, 2019, 10:19:59 AM
Thanks for the rundown. That was very helpful.

I have already done the values and wants and do not wants already. But I am going to go through it again.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: ML on November 15, 2019, 11:36:28 AM
Age appropriate women in my area are rough looking.

Who wants an age appropriate woman?

No stares, no gossip, no scandal.  Where would be the fun in that ?
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: ML on November 15, 2019, 11:37:49 AM
In the past few weeks I have had two women want to fix me up with friends. But when I see photos of them i have no interest in meeting them at all.

But weren't you told they have great personalities ??
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: SteveInBoston on November 15, 2019, 11:42:52 AM
Yes.

I noticed Lindsay Wagner is still hot.  I think she's single, as well.

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: BillyB on November 15, 2019, 11:57:49 AM
Who wants an age appropriate woman?

No stares, no gossip, no scandal.  Where would be the fun in that ?

When people see me and my wife walk down the street, it feels good when people stare thinking I'm rich or have a big dick.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: 2tallbill on November 15, 2019, 01:01:00 PM
If you 'understand' it - why do you and others demean yourselves by continuing it's use ? ;)

Because you don't control the words here. We have been
using MOB to describe the industry since this site began.

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: msmob on November 15, 2019, 02:03:40 PM
Because you don't control the words here. We have been
using MOB to describe the industry since this site began.

I 'missed' any claim to do so - but I reserve the right to point out how STUPID continued use of said term is ...
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: JayH on November 15, 2019, 03:22:09 PM
It was Tomsk.   Been in touch with the guy.   He's always fun to talk to.

Reading 2T upthread  I was thinking exactly that ( Tomsk)and contemplated asking-- and you answered :)
I was wondering how he was doing .
Same guy also ventured to Belarus a few times and to Moldova.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: jone on November 15, 2019, 05:21:35 PM
Last I heard, he was on his way back to Belarus.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: 2tallbill on November 16, 2019, 12:56:48 PM
I 'missed' any claim to do so - but I reserve the right to point out how STUPID continued use of said term is ...

You do it all the time, it's one of your pedant traits.

I've been to the Ukraine, the city of Kiev in search of MOB's.
You can almost hear furniture overturning as Moby runs to
tell me I what I can't say or how I can't say it.

The ONLY things worse are talking about the Queen of England,
anything about Ireland, or anything favorable about Brexit.

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: 2tallbill on November 16, 2019, 01:07:48 PM
Last I heard, he was on his way back to Belarus.

If you talk to him, tell him I wish him success.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: jone on November 16, 2019, 01:09:51 PM
Yeah.  Slumba talks to him more than I do.   He is a fun guy.  Always has a good story.   We still kid him about his date in Tomsk going through his refrigerator.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on November 18, 2019, 07:56:51 AM
Another question. Maybe a minor detail and maybe I am overthinking.  It looks like I may have a break in my activity in my business coming up. But it would be during the dead of winter. And I come from one of the warmer states.

Should this be a deterrent to going to Ukraine?  Would you guys go in winter or would you wait?  What about activities? You just do a lot of stuff inside?

By the way on the other thing about fix ups. I went on one date with a fix up. It was not very good. Woman was not very attractive and she had quite a bit of baggage.

Met another woman at a meetup group she was kind of attractive. Got her number and we went on one date. But she has two teenage kids that appear to be giving her problems from her divorce. Seems like a problem situation from the beginning.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Patagonie on November 18, 2019, 08:22:50 AM
Another question. Maybe a minor detail and maybe I am overthinking.  It looks like I may have a break in my activity in my business coming up. But it would be during the dead of winter. And I come from one of the warmer states.

Should this be a deterrent to going to Ukraine?  Would you guys go in winter or would you wait?  What about activities? You just do a lot of stuff inside?

By the way on the other thing about fix ups. I went on one date with a fix up. It was not very good. Woman was not very attractive and she had quite a bit of baggage.

Met another woman at a meetup group she was kind of attractive. Got her number and we went on one date. But she has two teenage kids that appear to be giving her problems from her divorce. Seems like a problem situation from the beginning.

Excuse me i am curious, what's a meetup group?
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Faux Pas on November 18, 2019, 08:31:23 AM
Another question. Maybe a minor detail and maybe I am overthinking.  It looks like I may have a break in my activity in my business coming up. But it would be during the dead of winter. And I come from one of the warmer states.

Should this be a deterrent to going to Ukraine?  Would you guys go in winter or would you wait?  What about activities? You just do a lot of stuff inside?

By the way on the other thing about fix ups. I went on one date with a fix up. It was not very good. Woman was not very attractive and she had quite a bit of baggage.

Met another woman at a meetup group she was kind of attractive. Got her number and we went on one date. But she has two teenage kids that appear to be giving her problems from her divorce. Seems like a problem situation from the beginning.

Should time and circumstance dictate that you travel to Ukraine in the winter do it and do not give it another thought. Just prepare yourself as winters in Ukraine (most parts) and Florida or where ever you're from have different attire requirements.

I am a Son of the South, born and bred but I have seen cold weather on a few occasions . Once my particular time and circumstance took me to Tomsk in the latter part of February one year. I went for some overkill on preparations including a down coat rated something like -60 below. It was great as long as I was outside but the minute I went inside someplace I was breaking out in a sweat. Overkill along with the thermal underarmour and the quilted flannel shirts. I regretted those.

You'll need a good warm coat (not too warm) and some good boots. I told you all of that to tell you this, when I got off the plane at 5:30 am that morning and as that cold air hit my face I knew that was a cold I hadn't ever experienced. There was 8ft of snow on the ground. I was a bit worried at the moment but as it turned out, I was never "cold" per se' my entire 2 weeks I was there and the temps were brutal especially to what I was accustomed to. Went spent a lot of time outside and I found myself sweating which also worried me. I though I might be getting sick but, I never did. Turned out I was well over dressed
Title: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: 2tallbill on November 18, 2019, 08:37:30 AM
Should this be a deterrent to going to Ukraine?  Would you guys go in winter
or would you wait?  What about activities? You just do a lot of stuff inside?

I went to the FSU many times in the winter and spent quite a bit
of it outside. They sell excellent cold weather gear in the USA
Wear a hat, keep your feet dry.

Don't key in on Ukraine exclusively, there are other FSU countries
that are excellent places to find an excellent woman, with the
exception of Georgia. I recommend that you avoid Georgia.

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: 2tallbill on November 18, 2019, 08:40:31 AM
Excuse me i am curious, what's a meetup group?

http://www.meetup.com/RusskiYazyk/

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on November 18, 2019, 09:03:24 AM
when I took my 6 month sabbatical in Kyiv in 1996, I was concerned about cold weather as well...  at the time I lived in Northern California, and I did a lot skiing at North Star Lake Tahoe...

I found that a BLACK down ski jacket that I had for skiing was the perfect thing to wear for Kyiv’s winter, but you’ll need some kinda hat that doesn’t look too dorky to keep your head warm, and rabbit fur lined kid leather gloves, bring several pairs...
cuz if you let a Russian woman try them on, then you’ll have to give them to her (trust me...)

all outer wear has to be BLACK in color....
warm cashmere sweaters are a must you can move away from black here...

at least one pair of outdoor climbing shoes/boots for walking on ice...
that ice gets pretty nasty in Kyiv!

the climate reminded me a lot of NYC in winter, Kyiv isn’t really bad if you dress warm!

if you get a big snowstorm in Kyiv go to the big outdoor market and buy a wooden sled
wax those rails and head over to Hrushevskoho Ulitsa
I bet I was doing 30 miles per hour at the bottom of that hill
any woman who won’t go sledding with you on Hrushevskoho, I’d drop her immediately
after sledding you want to cook lunch for her, something hardy and warming...
and you want a fire going in the fireplace...and her alcoholic preference....
bonus points for an alpaca blanket on the chair or couch she’s sitting on
everything else just pretty much happens on it its own after that first drink or two...
just sayin...
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: BillyB on November 18, 2019, 09:24:24 AM
Another question. Maybe a minor detail and maybe I am overthinking.  It looks like I may have a break in my activity in my business coming up. But it would be during the dead of winter. And I come from one of the warmer states.

Should this be a deterrent to going to Ukraine?  Would you guys go in winter or would you wait?  What about activities? You just do a lot of stuff inside?


If the girl(s) is/are worth it, go visit. Get on the phone with some of the ladies you're in contact with now. Get to know them. You might find one you really like to go see and you might find she likes you a lot. Don't worry about activities. The lady you visit will figure it out.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on November 18, 2019, 10:41:26 AM
http://www.meetup.com/RusskiYazyk/

I never went to a Russian language meetup group. That is pretty cool though. There are numerous meetup groups for different interests. International meetups biking hiking boating sports language cultural business etc. Just a way for people to meet and get to know each other in this age of smart phones and atomized social groups.

Occasionally you will find a cute girl or two.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: ML on November 18, 2019, 11:43:40 AM
Don't worry about activities. The lady you visit will figure it out.

Not always. 

I have come across a few who throw out the . . .

"You are the man, so you should have a plan for our activities."

Thus, always a good idea to do some searching online to find out some of the attractions in the gal's area.

I remember in St Petersburg there is a regular performance at one of the small 'castles' in town called:  "Feel Yourself Russian."

This was supposed to make you experience Russian music and particularly dancing.
Despite being focused toward foreigners, the local Russian gals enjoyed going there a lot.

It was always funny when they wanted me to explain why it was called 'Feel Yourself.'
Always led to some sexual flirtation between us.

I attended 4 times.  One memorable time, two male Chinese tourists got into a yelling and shoving match over who would get to sit in the front row.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: BillyB on November 18, 2019, 11:50:31 AM
Not always. 

I have come across a few who throw out the . . .

"You are the man, so you should have a plan for our activities."

Thus, always a good idea to do some searching online to find out some of the attractions in the gal's area.


Yes, it's wise for a guy to do his homework before going to any city to figure out what to do and where to go but most women I visited knew I'm a guest in their city and didn't expect me to know much and took care of me. If a woman can't be a good hostess, chances are she's not much into the man. After a man knows his way around town then she can play the "You're the man, you figure it out" card.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: HoundDaddyLee on November 18, 2019, 12:47:03 PM
Should time and circumstance dictate that you travel to Ukraine in the winter do it and do not give it another thought. Just prepare yourself as winters in Ukraine (most parts) and Florida or where ever you're from have different attire requirements.

I am a Son of the South, born and bred but I have seen cold weather on a few occasions . Once my particular time and circumstance took me to Tomsk in the latter part of February one year. I went for some overkill on preparations including a down coat rated something like -60 below. It was great as long as I was outside but the minute I went inside someplace I was breaking out in a sweat. Overkill along with the thermal underarmour and the quilted flannel shirts. I regretted those.

You'll need a good warm coat (not too warm) and some good boots. I told you all of that to tell you this, when I got off the plane at 5:30 am that morning and as that cold air hit my face I knew that was a cold I hadn't ever experienced. There was 8ft of snow on the ground. I was a bit worried at the moment but as it turned out, I was never "cold" per se' my entire 2 weeks I was there and the temps were brutal especially to what I was accustomed to. Went spent a lot of time outside and I found myself sweating which also worried me. I though I might be getting sick but, I never did. Turned out I was well over dressed


I have been to both Ukraine and Belarus in winter. All of the above advise it good. I would add good gloves and an LL Bean rabbit fur trapper had. Warmest hat I have ever owned...


I say if you have the time/money, go for it!


HDL
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on November 18, 2019, 01:04:09 PM
if you click with a woman in Ukraine in the winter...
AND she has a travel passport....
THEN 100% you should just get on a plane and go to Turkey with her...
TONS of different places you can go to...
some exotic/erotic ones....
and you don’t have to do much advance planning
get your visa when you get off the plane...
all the trips I made with girlfriends there were beyond incredible....
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: msmob on November 18, 2019, 01:19:27 PM
if you click with a woman in Ukraine in the winter...
AND she has a travel passport....
THEN 100% you should just get on a plane and go to Turkey with her...

Better be quick ..

Cyprus was 24C today -  next week much cooler :(

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on November 18, 2019, 01:41:35 PM
if you click with a woman in Ukraine in the winter...
AND she has a travel passport....
THEN 100% you should just get on a plane and go to Turkey with her...
TONS of different places you can go to...
some exotic/erotic ones....
and you don’t have to do much advance planning
get your visa when you get off the plane...
all the trips I made with girlfriends there were beyond incredible....

A couple of questions. Do you believe Turkey is safe for Americans? I don't mind going to sketchy places and I have been to a few. But I know Americans can get specifically targeted by certain groups.

Also on the philosophy of traveling with a new FSUW seems to be the wrong way to go at least at first. Isn't this something you do further down the line when you are better established?

What do you mean by "exotic/erotic places"? This is a muslim country.
Title: What to wear?
Post by: 2tallbill on November 18, 2019, 02:03:29 PM
when I took my 6 month sabbatical in Kyiv in 1996, I was concerned about cold weather as well...  at the time I lived in Northern California, and I did a lot skiing at North Star Lake Tahoe...

I found that a BLACK down ski jacket that I had for skiing was the perfect thing to wear for Kyiv’s winter, but you’ll need some kinda hat that doesn’t look too dorky to keep your head warm, and rabbit fur lined kid leather gloves, bring several pairs...
cuz if you let a Russian woman try them on, then you’ll have to give them to her (trust me...)

all outer wear has to be BLACK in color....
warm cashmere sweaters are a must you can move away from black here...

at least one pair of outdoor climbing shoes/boots for walking on ice...
that ice gets pretty nasty in Kyiv!

the climate reminded me a lot of NYC in winter, Kyiv isn’t really bad if you dress warm!

if you get a big snowstorm in Kyiv go to the big outdoor market and buy a wooden sled
wax those rails and head over to Hrushevskoho Ulitsa
I bet I was doing 30 miles per hour at the bottom of that hill
any woman who won’t go sledding with you on Hrushevskoho, I’d drop her immediately
after sledding you want to cook lunch for her, something hardy and warming...
and you want a fire going in the fireplace...and her alcoholic preference....
bonus points for an alpaca blanket on the chair or couch she’s sitting on
everything else just pretty much happens on it its own after that first drink or two...
just sayin...

Krimster,

Lot's of good stuff there
I've skied North Star many times, Heavenly too many times to count
and Squaw Valley, Kirkwood and I seriously damaged my back requiring
surgery at Mt Rose.

I never went with a down jacket, I went with Columbia black or black
with red trim. I wore Columbia boots or Sorel boots. I spend many
hours getting the right gloves that fit my extra large paws every year.
Just because X company made a perfect glove for me one year is no
guarantee that the same glove will fit the next year.

Luckily for me my gloves would be totally useless to any woman who
could even be remotely attractive, wear plates in their lips or a member
of the Dinka tribe. I spend to many hours hunting for them to ever give
them up.

I bought a Russian fur hat that I love but it's too hot for temperatures
above 10F (-12C) unless the wind is howling. I would recommend a
beanie for traveling to the FSU and then buying one or two locally
with your local advisor to help. 

Columbia website
http://www.columbia.com/

North Face website
http://www.columbia.com/

Sorel:
http://www.sorel.com/winter-boots/

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: 2tallbill on November 18, 2019, 02:08:27 PM
A couple of questions. Do you believe Turkey is safe for Americans?

There are all inclusive resorts in Turkey that are 99% totally safe
and priced well. Russians flock there. An idiot can always find
trouble anywhere. My Turkey experience is extremely limited
but I know a lot of people who travel there. 

Udachi!

Bill
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: ML on November 18, 2019, 07:08:15 PM
There are all inclusive resorts in Turkey that are 99% totally safe
and priced well. Russians flock there. An idiot can always find
trouble anywhere. My Turkey experience is extremely limited
but I know a lot of people who travel there. 

Big Bill, I think you oversold the safety of current day Turkey.

I have been there 7 times with 5 different gals.

But I would NOT go there today because of safety concerns.
I wouldn't even transit through Istanbul airport.

I would not be surprised that Americans visiting in Turkey will be targeted any day now.

The above also applies for Egypt, which I have been to 3 times with FSU gals.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: BillyB on November 18, 2019, 07:31:40 PM

My advice to Scareface is to brave the cold and see the girls on their turf. Maybe you'll get to meet the family and friends which you wouldn't be able to do going to another country. Save the international vacations for a girlfriend or wife.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on November 18, 2019, 07:33:21 PM
I used to take my wife and young daughters to Istanbul when I lived in Sevastopol, it was just a 45 min flight from Simferopol!  we’d get our visas for about $30 right off the plane...

I’d take them around Istanbul to the different museums...
we always stayed in the high end 5 star suites which are super cheap in Istanbul
and they liked to go shopping in all the different places there...
of course, we bought carpets and had them shipped home...

we looked like random Europeans and never had problems
I drank alcohol in public in Istanbul with no problems, beer and a local liquor...
my wife and daughters would wear headscarfs in places like St Sophia...
the secret as usual is, “when in Rome do as the Romans do...”

we flew down to Marmaris from Istanbul and my daughters who are SCUBA certified and I went diving in shallow water that was crystal clear...

then we traveled out into the interior and saw Sumerian ruins
several years before that I went all the way to Göbekli Tepe to the far south...
but even back then in the late 90s I could hear explosions coming from Syria...
it’d probably be a pretty crazy place to go visit now, and I would avoid...
also in that area, I saw a buncha snakes that have cat’s eyes...

you have to check out a place in northern Turkey called Ephesus, it BLEW MY MIND!
cleopatra’s sister has a tomb there and you should check out the city’s library....
a great place to just wander around, feeling a profound sense of utter amazement...

I’d only recommend either Istanbul or Marmaris, both places with a LOT of foreign tourists
and I’d only travel within Turkey by flying...

I REALLY liked Turkey!!!!
it has a rich incredible history that’s just sitting there
you can touch it....

far safer than ANY large big American city...
in Marmaris more than half the tourists will be Russians!

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: msmob on November 19, 2019, 03:36:29 AM
Big Bill, I think you oversold the safety of current day Turkey.

I have been there 7 times with 5 different gals.

But I would NOT go there today because of safety concerns.
I wouldn't even transit through Istanbul airport.

I would not be surprised that Americans visiting in Turkey will be targeted any day now.

The above also applies for Egypt, which I have been to 3 times with FSU gals.

Dear ML

Your US passport does not make you any less safe in Turkey - in the Tourist areas ..  I wouldn't advise going near the Syrian border ;)

You're statistically far more likely to be killed by a wacko with a gun in your own state

I go to Turkey with my beloved v.often - via plane, yacht , car ... 

I hold a UK passport - 'we' are deemed to be just as 'evil' ;)


Istanbul is a wonderful city - The Emerald Coast in S.Turkey is a yachting paradise ( bit late, now)



Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: ML on November 19, 2019, 04:56:44 PM
Dear ML

Your US passport does not make you any less safe in Turkey - in the Tourist areas ..  I wouldn't advise going near the Syrian border ;)

You're statistically far more likely to be killed by a wacko with a gun in your own state

I go to Turkey with my beloved v.often - via plane, yacht , car ... 

I hold a UK passport - 'we' are deemed to be just as 'evil' ;)


Istanbul is a wonderful city - The Emerald Coast in S.Turkey is a yachting paradise ( bit late, now)

I strongly disagree with you.

Turkey is a very unstable and potentially volatile country right now . . . for all of its citizens and especially for visitors.

US citizens will be primary targets because of the economic sanctions we placed on Turkey.

When anyone suffers, they certainly are not happy toward those who are imposing the suffering.

There are 2 Turkish persons on the Math Dept faculty and have passed on this info to my wife.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on November 19, 2019, 06:32:28 PM
perception....
there's been 11 mass school shootings so far this year in the USA...
how many in Turkey???

tourists are everywhere in Istanbul and Marmaris....
just blend in and you'll be fine...
EXCEPT for the damned carpet sellers!!!!
they're the biggest most annoying thing in Istanbul!!!!
so what you do when you go to the carpet district is to get a "guide" and he'll fend off the others!!!!
slovo!!
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: msmob on November 19, 2019, 09:20:59 PM
ML

Admittedly,  I do not hold a US passport ..( It seems your President's 'policies' are making you feel 'unsafe'?))

Do you think I would risk my life (  or that of my partner) ?


So, how many times have you been to Turkey in the last 3 years, ML ...? 

I will be there v.shortly..  Again, I feel no less safe there than in a shopping mall in Orlando....

Better you listen to those that go....and manage to 'survive'....

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on November 20, 2019, 01:16:06 PM
perception....
there's been 11 mass school shootings so far this year in the USA...
how many in Turkey???

tourists are everywhere in Istanbul and Marmaris....
just blend in and you'll be fine...
EXCEPT for the damned carpet sellers!!!!
they're the biggest most annoying thing in Istanbul!!!!
so what you do when you go to the carpet district is to get a "guide" and he'll fend off the others!!!!
slovo!!

There are 11 mass school shootings in the USA because everyone is unarmed in the school. It is a free-fire zone. If you are a crazy with a gun. You go to a school where no one can shoot back.

Perception...There are many more (mostly ethnic minorities) people killed in a few weekends in Chicago with a population of a few million than in all of the mass shootings combined. But no one is talking about those. But a mass shooting of white kids and everyone is talking about it over and over and over....

Turkey seems risky to me. That blue passport follows me wherever I go, so I have to show a little caution. Looking into getting a second passport as an insurance policy.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: tfcrew on November 20, 2019, 03:22:12 PM
perception....
there's been 11 mass school shootings so far this year in the USA...
 
But what's worse------
 There were at least 85 incidents of gunfire on school grounds in 2019, resulting in: http://everytownresearch.org/gunfire-in-school/#13309
 

 
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on November 20, 2019, 03:26:45 PM
scarface, you should try and get out more to see the REAL world...
the biggest danger is your own ignorance...
Turkey is the easiest EXOTIC/EROTIC location to take a Ukrainian woman, roughly 90 minute flight from Kyiv...
easy visas for you and her
AND inexpensive....
safer being a tourist in Istanbul than being a tourist in NYC by FAR even Manhattan...

over the years, I've taken ALL my secretaries from Ukraine to Istanbul and Marmaris
super high end 5 star suites and take them clothes shopping....
generally, I would not be able to walk straight for at least a month after that....
and never any problems....
that's WHY I felt comfortable bringing my children later...
if my little girls were safe there,
I'm guessing that you'll probably be OK as well...






Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: jone on November 20, 2019, 03:30:21 PM
He says to a guy who went to Russia to find his bride.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Davo on November 20, 2019, 03:49:02 PM
I’m considering spending a few days in Turkey during my next trip to Russia. Visiting Gallipoli is a sacred pilgrimage that most Australians would like to do once in their life and thousands visit every year. I’ve got friends who have done the pilgrimage and then spent time in the south coast resort towns. They said they feel safe, despite our governments travel warnings regarding Turkey. My Uncle and Aunt are on a Black Sea cruise Atm and Turkey is a destination, as well as Russia and Ukraine.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: SteveInBoston on November 20, 2019, 07:11:08 PM
Ok, my 2 cents:

WTF.  Turkey?!?

Sure, if Scarface just wants to wet his willy with a good time girl, then yes, get a penthouse suite at the Hyatt, wine and dine her, and fly her off to Turkey.   But why stop at Turkey?  Go to one of those luxurious bungaloes over water in Tahiti or Bora Bora.  I'm pretty sure a girl that signs up for that will drop her panties faster than light speed.


If Scarface wants to find a good girl, a quality girl, then that girl would want to stay at home during the holidays.  She would have friends and family to visit and spend time with for New Years and Christmas.

A girl that would drop all plans and fly away with a stranger is, well, suspect, don't you think?  I'm sure there are outliers out there, but given that a good girl would have plenty of options at home, it would be very long odds to find the one who is quality and would spend time with you during the holidays.

Scarface, if you are serious about finding a good woman, then forget these hookup suggestions.  Try to meet someone online to build some rapport, and go visit her.  If you want to VM, then line up a few potential dates, or follow ML's or 2TBill's advise.

If you want to score, then visit Sandro's Double Dealer's page and book an hour or two with one of those ladies.

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: jone on November 20, 2019, 07:40:48 PM
I think that one of the reasons that Sandro puts these women in his DD files is that the women that are attached to those profiles aren't necessarily the ones in the pictures.  Those pictures are passed around from one profile to another.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on November 21, 2019, 01:31:34 PM
"But why stop at Turkey?"

1. convenience - 90 min flight from Kyiv
2. simple visa process
3. really GREAT shopping compared to Kyiv!!!

sure other farther away places might be better, but why use a big heavy sledge hammer when a tiny little pin will work
taking Ukrainian women to Istanbul always worked in my favor...
smart girls will go...
because it's the smart thing to do...
and I ended up marryin the smartest one...
they ALL wanted me to take them clothes shopping there!!!!
like Trump, I had a quid pro quo in mind with a Ukrainian!
and Ukrainian quo is pretty damned sweet!

imagination!
that is your creation!

once you take a Ukrainian woman out of Ukraine, she has to depend COMPLETELY on you...
her personality changes, you MUST make her experience the focus of the trip
this also generally means a lot of close intimacy over clothes shopping
you'll be in the dressing room with her, helping her....
don't forget the lingerie and swim suit
then, when you "make your move", she will NOT rebuff you, because she will be afraid to offend and lose the AMEX card the next day....

tellin ya this worked like a charm EVERY DAMNED time even with women 20 years younger than me!!!
skip the moral judgements, this is how you bend a Ukrainian woman to your will
you generate a flow of rewards that are proportional to her own behavior towards you....
I think they call it "behavior modification" with a positive reward
but this is all ya really gotta do!

they ALL want the treats, it's up to you to train them to earn it
this is the principle I use to manage all the women in my life (and there's a BUNCH!)
it's expensive, but I have them all quite literally eating out of my hand...
and they provide me with an effort free country gentleman's life style in return
I love the smell of patriarchy in the morning
it smells like eggs and bacon and coffee on the back porch...
served by beautiful smiling Russian girls
who genuinely want nothing more than to make sure that I'm happy with them
so they get their rewards....

you single guys probably have to eat a mcmuffin and mc'd coffee or somehing like that, ewwwww....
what a primitive existence...
sounds almost like camping alone in the wilderness


Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: ML on November 22, 2019, 01:12:04 PM

I love the smell of patriarchy in the morning
it smells like eggs and bacon and coffee on the back porch...
served by beautiful smiling Russian girls
who genuinely want nothing more than to make sure that I'm happy with them
so they get their rewards....


This morning wife and I went to restaurant for breakfast.
A special price was available for 2 eggs, 2 bacon, 2 sausage and 2 pancakes.

But then what reward followed . . . nothing.

Wife went off to school in her car and I went off to survey office in my truck to pick up plat for my subdivision.

And she will even be very late coming home because of grading of Calc 2 common exam for 15 sections.

Over Thanksgiving break, I get to type up a term project for her.  What fun.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: jone on November 22, 2019, 01:41:34 PM
I hope you split that breakfast.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Trenchcoat on November 22, 2019, 02:55:45 PM
Would like to hear members views on this Interview on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4jkX69Mbwo&list=WL&index=18&t=1090s

A WM interviews a Ukrainian Police Officer about Ukrainian women. He reckons that good women are the ones that don't go jumping into bed with a guy within days or even weeks of meeting her. That also to be the good guy that she wants you should avoid making such moves yourself and take things real slow.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: BillyB on November 22, 2019, 04:11:18 PM
This morning wife and I went to restaurant for breakfast.
A special price was available for 2 eggs, 2 bacon, 2 sausage and 2 pancakes.

But then what reward followed . . . nothing.


2 eggs, 2 bacon, 2 sausage and 2 pancakes don't get the girls turned on anymore like it used to. Try steak and lobster next time.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: ML on November 22, 2019, 04:19:55 PM
He reckons that good women are the ones that don't go jumping into bed with a guy within days or even weeks of meeting her. That also to be the good guy that she wants you should avoid making such moves yourself and take things real slow.

Follow that advice and the gal will think you are gay.

Remember what Davo told us the mother of the gal he was with in Southern Russia said regarding this topic.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Patagonie on November 22, 2019, 05:58:53 PM
Would like to hear members views on this Interview on YouTube:



A WM interviews a Ukrainian Police Officer about Ukrainian women. He reckons that good women are the ones that don't go jumping into bed with a guy within days or even weeks of meeting her. That also to be the good guy that she wants you should avoid making such moves yourself and take things real slow.
Trench i already heard the entire video,
And this guy is not an expert in dating. I would not really rely on what he says.

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Trenchcoat on November 22, 2019, 06:29:17 PM
Thanks guys, probably depends on the girl to some extent I guess. There are probably those girls that are quite moralistic and the waiting type then there are probably those girls that don't mind and would rather get it on with a guy they like and as you say might wonder why if you're not showing much sign of interest within a shortish time frame. Considering the girl is into you with the moralistic girl type of situation I guess.

I do wonder if there is something in what he says as if a girl thinks you are going to jump into bed with her quick then you could do so with any girl in the future if that girl got into a LTR with you.

Briefly saw a bit on another interview this guy does with a girl and think she says much the same as this guy. Will try and find it when I get time, again it's on You Tube so you guys might be able to look it up. I don't think all women are like this out there but I think it might tie up with some girls seeing a guy wanting sex as reason to want what they want also, clothes, etc. While other girls may only be up for it with a guy they like and won't ask the guy for stuff.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: SteveInBoston on November 23, 2019, 07:34:04 AM
I believe the guy in the video owns a matchmaking business - Match Guarantee.

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Patagonie on November 23, 2019, 07:46:20 AM
I believe the guy in the video owns a matchmaking business - Match Guarantee.
Yes he does, and i think he does a very good job. I tried to meet him, but no answer.  :popcorn:
Title: Visiting Turkey
Post by: ML on November 24, 2019, 12:45:07 PM
Earlier in this thread there was some discussion of visits to Turkey.
I stated that, although I had been in Turkey several times, I would not go there today because of hard feelings toward Americans there.

From http://www.pewresearch.org/global/2017/06/26/tarnished-american-brand/

. . . roughly eight-in-ten in Turkey (79%) have an unfavorable opinion of U.S. This includes 58% in Turkey who are very negative toward the U.S., up 26 percentage points since 2015.

This was from 2017.  Today, the unfavorable numbers are likely higher due to our sanctions on Turkey, etc.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on November 24, 2019, 12:57:56 PM
Thanks guys, probably depends on the girl to some extent I guess. There are probably those girls that are quite moralistic and the waiting type then there are probably those girls that don't mind and would rather get it on with a guy they like and as you say might wonder why if you're not showing much sign of interest within a shortish time frame. Considering the girl is into you with the moralistic girl type of situation I guess.

I do wonder if there is something in what he says as if a girl thinks you are going to jump into bed with her quick then you could do so with any girl in the future if that girl got into a LTR with you.

Briefly saw a bit on another interview this guy does with a girl and think she says much the same as this guy. Will try and find it when I get time, again it's on You Tube so you guys might be able to look it up. I don't think all women are like this out there but I think it might tie up with some girls seeing a guy wanting sex as reason to want what they want also, clothes, etc. While other girls may only be up for it with a guy they like and won't ask the guy for stuff.

I think you are overthinking this way too much. Women like sex just like men. Good girls are not going to jump into bed with you if they do not feel a strong attraction or feel that you are someone they want to be committed to and you are committed to them. There are other girls that are more available or are into you  at that particular moment.

Your last paragraph appears to be a lot of rumination. Go after the girl. Follow the other experienced guy's recommendation on here. Date lots of women and progress towards sex. Comparing her to the other women along the way. If she is interested you will know soon enough. If she is not you will know this. If she asks for stuff then you have to decide if this is appropriate or not. Sometimes that can be tricky as my earlier part of this thread shows. Some women lie just like some men lie. Sadly for me mine lied to me all the way through the relationship. And for my own fault, I ignored or misinterpreted some red and yellow flags along the way. Lesson learned. I will hopefully avoid these mistakes in the future. Lying makes it more complicated and harder to deal with.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on November 24, 2019, 12:58:37 PM
Follow that advice and the gal will think you are gay.

Remember what Davo told us the mother of the gal he was with in Southern Russia said regarding this topic.

What did she say?
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Davo on November 24, 2019, 03:21:46 PM
What did she say?

We had built up a solid connection over a long period of time online and when we finally met we shared a hotel room the first night. Being a gentleman I insisted on separate rooms ( they had a 2 bedroom suite). Mum called before we went to bed and I imagined the conversation went something like this..... “ Davo is an absolute gentleman. Don’t worry we have separate rooms and he’s not trying to take advantage of me”

Later she admitted the conversation went like this..... “ What’s wrong with this man? You’re an attractive woman!!! Why doesn’t he want to sleep with you???”

We had a good laugh about it.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on November 24, 2019, 03:40:24 PM
Ok. LOL

Kind of like Billy's MIL.
Title: Re: Visiting Turkey
Post by: msmob on November 26, 2019, 04:07:08 AM
Earlier in this thread there was some discussion of visits to Turkey.
I stated that, although I had been in Turkey several times, I would not go there today because of hard feelings toward Americans there.

From http://www.pewresearch.org/global/2017/06/26/tarnished-american-brand/

. . . roughly eight-in-ten in Turkey (79%) have an unfavorable opinion of U.S. This includes 58% in Turkey who are very negative toward the U.S., up 26 percentage points since 2015.

This was from 2017.  Today, the unfavorable numbers are likely higher due to our sanctions on Turkey, etc.

Most Europeans, Turks, Russians, etc think 'Trampu' is an idiot - does it stop 'us' coming ...?


Loads of Brits stayed away from Turkey, too - what with the Putin 'Charter flight and Package holiday ban' ..it was a truly GREAT place to visit ..

It's a bit like saying, " do not go to America because there's lots of school shootings and they are more likely to shoot each other "


Title: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: 2tallbill on November 26, 2019, 07:57:24 AM
“ Davo is an absolute gentleman. Don’t worry we have separate rooms
and he’s not trying to take advantage of me”

Later she admitted the conversation went like this..... “ What’s wrong with this man? You’re an attractive woman!!! Why doesn’t he want to sleep with you???”

We had a good laugh about it.

I was meeting a gal in Dnepropetrovsk, she found an apartment for me to
stay in and we were talking about what color of panties she would be wearing
to the airport. I told her they should look good hanging from the lamp in the
apartment.

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: ML on November 26, 2019, 08:02:17 AM
I told her they should look good hanging from the lamp in the apartment.

Danger of catching fire.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: 2tallbill on November 26, 2019, 09:22:31 AM
Danger of catching fire.

Luckily the lamp shade protected them from that.

Later, after I got her out of them, we finished and she went
to the bathroom to do whatever women do, I stood on the
bed and hung them from a hook on the chandelier. She didn't
notice them for a while but she started laughing, Beel, Beel
you can't poot them there. She couldn't reach them and got
tickled when she tried. 

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on November 27, 2019, 03:43:07 PM
Well, it looks like I am getting closer to making a decision to make a WM/VM (thanks ML and Bill, and several other guys) trip to FSU in the near future. I have hopefully learned from my mistakes and I have a solid plan B in place.

I have four sites that I am looking at for prospects and I am looking at a good well-populated city. But I do not have a huge number of prospects to choose from. I do not want to go too low on the age scale.

It appears I may be able to get about 200 to write to. I did some tests writing with a different picture and different city and I got pretty good response rate back.

I am planning on making the trip in the winter in the FSU so that should be an adventure in itself. Just have to make sure my business is prepared before I go. I am looking at 3 to 4 week stay to make sure I get a good taste. Longest I ever stayed in FSU was 2 weeks.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: msmob on November 27, 2019, 05:00:49 PM
Well, it looks like I am getting closer to making a decision to make a WM/VM (thanks ML and Bill, and several other guys) trip to FSU in the near future. I have hopefully learned from my mistakes and I have a solid plan B in place.

Then you are a 'Mug'...

From what I've read, you're not the VM type - you'll be wasting your time and money ..

ML hasn't dated in the FSU in over a decade and Beel came on a VO trip and THEN struck gold by being honest ..

That's a VERY hard thing to do - it needs confidence and some Russian skills ..
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: LAman on November 27, 2019, 05:24:54 PM

That's a VERY hard thing to do - it's needs confidence and some Russian skills ..


  VERY hard thing........Maybe for you but simple for me.

 Don't need Russian skills or confidence, just good planning.
A big plus if you are familiar with city.
I will get so brash, I may go see a couple in same city, in fact roommates. )))
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: msmob on November 27, 2019, 05:49:51 PM
  VERY hard thing........Maybe for you but simple for me.

I missed where I claimed it was 'hard' for me .. but then those that keep going and 'boast' like you are the sort that think success is a 'jump' or two .. 


Don't need Russian skills or confidence, just good planning.


And how's that 'planning' worked out for you ?  ...

A big plus if you are familiar with city.
I will get so brash, I may go see a couple in same city, in fact roommates. )))

'Thanks' for demonstrating what I thought , 'Stud' ..

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on November 27, 2019, 05:52:17 PM
Then you are a 'Mug'...

From what I've read, you're not the VM type - you'll be wasting your time and money ..

ML hasn't dated in the FSU in over a decade and Beel came on a VO trip and THEN struck gold by being honest ..

That's a VERY hard thing to do - it needs confidence and some Russian skills ..

I don't know what a mug is but you are a d***. All you do is b**** and complain call people names.

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on November 27, 2019, 05:53:25 PM
ok boomer!

newsflash from someone who has seen a boatload of guys like you OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF DECADES...
every SINGLE ONE who had that “sensitive ego issue” like yours ALWAYS FAILED in Ukraine...

EVERY...SINGLE...ONE...

Ukraine is gonna be outside your ability, OK?
don’t believe me?
neither did the other guys who failed....

leave your ego in a box somewhere...
because you clearly haven’t even the tiniest, slightest clue of how to operate in Ukraine
this is what he’s trying to tell ‘ya...
did this obvious bit of news hurt your little “feelings”?
awwwwwww shucks....

you need to get over this kinda juvenile emotional bullshit, ok?
and start learnin how to act and behave like an ADULT MAN, ESPECIALLY in Ukraine or Russia
OTHERWISE...
you’ll keep wasting your time regarding Ukraine like you've already been doing....
you'll be busy engaging with your feelings and not THINKING and definitely not winning any trophy from Ukraine...
cause basically you don’t display the mentality that you need to succeed in even the SLIGHTEST amount...

but other than that...
how was the play Mrs. Lincoln?





Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: SteveInBoston on November 27, 2019, 09:48:08 PM
The murder mystery?  Pretty realistic.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: msmob on November 28, 2019, 01:25:39 AM
I don't know what a mug is but you are a d***. All you do is b**** and complain call people names.

Ah, I didn't expect you to appreciate my advice.. but it was well meant and specific, based on your previous posts.. 

You don't understand the culture, history, geography and so much more...

Please be sure to prove me wrong.. Other members will love that and I'll honesty be pleased )

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on November 28, 2019, 06:16:19 AM
ha...nothing was well-meant and specific about what you said...all you do is cry and whine and call people names.

And according to Krimster you will fail because you have a big ego. You have a consistent pattern of trolling and whining and using ad hominem attacks at whoever you can.

But I make one comment and I am the one who is going to fail? Lol

This is laughable. Krimster you better look around. There is nothing but sensitive people arguing about every little thing they can possibly find on here. So I guess I am in good company. lol

I guess now you will brag about how many Russian women you have chasing you around the house.  And you talk about my ego. lol

This is exactly why no one comes on here and reports anything but lots of guys lurking, because you guys harangue them and toss your little stones at them constantly. Damned if they do and damned if they don't. So what do you have left? Just each other to argue with.

I have never put up with bullies and their weak little ways and I don't intend to now.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on November 28, 2019, 06:54:31 AM
YOU are the one who is WEAK and INEXPERIENCED....
and it shows....

and if WE see it...
so will Ukrainian women....

don't EVER demand that others treat you a certain way...
if you can't command RESPECT from someone based on your ability and knowledge
then you don't deserve to get it in the first place....

you're still struggling to get your FIRST Ukrainian girlfriend....
I am LIGHT YEARS past that and so are some others on this board....

if you're SO FRAGILE and want to be treated that way - fine....
but DON'T expect Russians/Ukrainians to baby you....
they will laugh at and heap scorn on such a weakling....
alles ist klar heute?

you don't get to play by your rules...
you either play by RUSSIAN rules
or you lose the game....

EVERYONE is a bully in Russia/Ukraine, you HAVE to be...
but you're new to the jungle
and don't know the jungle ways
and I think you NEVER will
and instead, you'll likely quit and give up after one or two more failures....
and you'll blame it on Ukraine, instead of blaming it on YOUR own failure to LEARN and ADAPT to a radically different world that you know NOTHING about...

lots of guys have come on this board full of sound and fury...
AND....
they quit, due to a lack of success like your first effort....
my prediction is that you will be one of them
OK?





Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: scarface816 on November 28, 2019, 07:19:40 AM
hahaha Krimster: bragging and boasting and showing off, please look at me give me validation accept me as one of the boys. lol

You're pathetic. And you want to call me weak?

Please look at my photos, I want you to know that I am a ladies man. But I am fragile. hahahaha
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on November 28, 2019, 07:23:38 AM
you just proved my point about your "mentality"...
and STILL you don't get it....


today MY house is FULL of stunning Russian MILFs and their equally stunning daughters! and there is much hussle and bussle and click and clack of dishes
they are ALL going "all out" to make a great Thanksgiving dinner, so I better stay the hell away from the master kitchen today while this project is going on...
and chill on the back porch with malchiki, earlier we did some skeet shooting... and THEN we drank some champagne after I put the Benellis away...

Russian deavochki making Turkey, Cranberry sauce and stuffing....hahaha
but that's about the only American food we'll be having, all the other Thanksgiving dishes will be Russian
as will be our house full of guests....
one of whom is a former GRU linguist who now works for GazProm in Houston
his daughters and mine are BFFs
networking!!! he's the guy who "recruited me" and got me in...
should hear some interesting Russian gossip at dinner after the wine from multiple GazProm sources....

we regularly have dinner with many interesting Houston area Russian ex-pats in the oil&gas industry and their children, most of whom are early college aged like my kids...
I was floating the idea of wearing my late father's Panama Suit today with a black tie because of the warm Houston weather...
but when I put it on and showed my wife...she just laughed and said "NYET!"....


so "da, eta pravda", my world is VERY different from yours scarface

so have fun in Ukraine, you might learn something, or not...
my guess is not...

sic transit...
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: LAman on November 28, 2019, 08:49:23 AM
I missed where I claimed it was 'hard' for me .. but then those that keep going and 'boast' like you are the sort that think success is a 'jump' or two .. 



And how's that 'planning' worked out for you ?  ...

'Thanks' for demonstrating what I thought , 'Stud' ..

I never said hard for you Moby, it is your thinking that it is VERY hard to have VM.

 I don't talk about success, I talk about meeting and see where it goes. I'm not getting married for the thought of being married. Got to be for the right reasons, maybe I am not cut out to be married again, who knows.

Planning is good, Be in Russia and Ukraine soon, several cities involved with big NY eve party in Moscow.

Not a stud, just enjoy good company.

BTW- Jeremy says hi...….not!!!!! )))))
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on November 28, 2019, 05:05:04 PM
I currently have a VK contact list of about 100 Russian/Ukrainian women who are at “goddess” level... in their early to late 20s......
all single....
out of a total list of almost 2,000 VK contacts...

if I were using this as a dating “black book”
then I’d pretty much pick Moscva because that has the largest collection of contacts...

I’d get a suite at the “Four Seasons"
and setup “my shop” there...

I would rank my Moscva contacts...
and start with inviting #1 to my suite and see how it goes...
if the first date goes well, then there’s a second date, and 100% there is sex by the third date or it means it’s the last date and then I call contact #2....

I’m pretty sure I would NOT get past the third contact
before I would have given this tender young woman her first experience of “oral pleasure” (usually, it’s the other way around for them)

my experience is that this is how you “hook” a Ukrainian/Russian woman...
which is to get them addicted into wanting this...
especially if YOU’RE REALLY GOOD AT GIVING IT!!!
then they will be your SLAVE!!!

this is ALL it really takes...

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: jone on November 28, 2019, 06:59:51 PM
I currently have a VK contact list of about 100 Russian/Ukrainian women who are at “goddess” level... in their early to late 20s......
all single....
out of a total list of almost 2,000 VK contacts...

if I were using this as a dating “black book”
then I’d pretty much pick Moscva because that has the largest collection of contacts...

I’d get a suite at the “Four Seasons"
and setup “my shop” there...

I would rank my Moscva contacts...
and start with inviting #1 to my suite and see how it goes...
if the first date goes well, then there’s a second date, and 100% there is sex by the third date or it means it’s the last date and then I call contact #2....

I’m pretty sure I would NOT get past the third contact
before I would have given this tender young woman her first experience of “oral pleasure” (usually, it’s the other way around for them)

my experience is that this is how you “hook” a Ukrainian/Russian woman...
which is to get them addicted into wanting this...
especially if YOU’RE REALLY GOOD AT GIVING IT!!!
then they will be your SLAVE!!!

this is ALL it really takes...

I confess, I've never had much desire to lick a girl's butthole.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: ML on November 28, 2019, 07:14:34 PM
I confess, I've never had much desire to lick a girl's butthole.

I'll see that and lower you 100.

I have zero interest in such.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: Trenchcoat on November 28, 2019, 11:15:50 PM

I’m pretty sure I would NOT get past the third contact
before I would have given this tender young woman her first experience of “oral pleasure” (usually, it’s the other way around for them)

my experience is that this is how you “hook” a Ukrainian/Russian woman...
which is to get them addicted into wanting this...
especially if YOU’RE REALLY GOOD AT GIVING IT!!!
then they will be your SLAVE!!!

this is ALL it really takes...

Can you recommend a good book? :D
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: BillyB on November 28, 2019, 11:39:52 PM

I've never licked a woman's butthole but I've had my butthole licked and I will confess I didn't resist.
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: msmob on November 29, 2019, 12:46:04 AM
Well now, Krimster, we have some of the guys who suggest 'sexual mastery' now proving they might be prudish !)








Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on November 29, 2019, 06:34:29 AM
"Can you recommend a good book? :D"

YES, I can recommend a good book for "novices"....
it's called "She Comes First" by  Ian Kerner....

if you applied the information in this book to Ukrainian women....
then they will end up living with you and cleaning your house and cooking your meals, and they will do whatever you tell them to do...
WORD!

this is how you make WILD feral Ukrainian village girls “manageable”
THEN...
when you’re in the library reading over a glass of cagnac late into the night...
she will emerge starkers from the master bath after a shower....
and come sit in your lap...
and press her “DDs” into your lips...
and whisper softly, “projouste”....
you guys and your porn, who needs it?  I sure don’t!!!!
it's too boring compared to my actual life...

totally recommend when you're younger to have a friend with benefits to practice on...
in Bay Area California the women were brutal, if you were not a 5 star cunnilingus performer you would NOT be in a serious relationship there...
fortunately for me, I was...

in the late 90s, I made the transition from doing this with 40+ yr old women in the Bay Area vrs 20 yr old women in Ukraine...
a HUGE difference....
a completely shaved 20 yr old when viewed from a foot a way, is just...
AMAZING....
especially, when you're a 40 yr old dewd...





Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: ML on December 01, 2019, 10:38:56 AM
if you were not a 5 star cunnilingus performer you would NOT be in a serious relationship there...


Cunnilingus . . . isn't that an Irish Airline ?
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: ML on December 01, 2019, 10:40:15 AM

a completely shaved 20 yr old when viewed from a foot a way, is just...
AMAZING....
especially, when you're a 40 yr old dewd...

You mean the view is different, depending on the age of the dewd ?
Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: krimster2 on December 01, 2019, 11:09:15 AM
"Cunnilingus . . . isn't that an Irish Airline ?"

YES!!  with "in-air" casino and bar!!!
Poker up front
and liquor in the rear!!!

"you mean the view is different, depending on the age of the dewd ?"

precisely monsieur!
all beauty is experienced through its perception...
going from peering at 40+ yr old Californian VJJs to 19+ yr old Ukrainian VJJs...
I immediately noticed a BIG difference in visual appeal...
the first time gave me a deja vu moment from back in MY OWN 20s....

cuz no way in the Bay Area would a 40 yr old dewd be hooking up with a 20 yr old sweetheart  with a PERFECT HARD BODY....
and after the third date and a couple of drinks and she's laying on the bed, spread out in front of you like that, NO FREAKIN' WAY, unless it was a setup and you're about to get "whacked"

that thought did cross my mind the first time...
but SHE WAS SO HOT, I did it anyway...

Title: Re: Did I Screw Up?
Post by: tfcrew on October 19, 2020, 06:51:05 PM
I was questioned a lot about whether I had sex. And it is obvious this is a good gauge of a woman's interest which I am trying to determine using her actions. But I also asked that people do not come on here and contribute nothing and just attack. I can see you have a lot of resentment for some reason. But don't put it on me. I am seriously trying to solve a problem and all you want to do is take potshots at someone who is asking for help. You have insulted her and me now. In two short posts. What a miserable little life you must have.
Dosvidanya to scarface816. I took no 'potshots' at anyone...I merely presented the fact that if a woman sleeps with someone the very night they meet them...they will most likely do the same with the next guy. If that is not a contribution...I would like to know why. If it was a personal attack...I would like to know why. The miserable life that I must have comment sounds like retaliation from a more troubled person than I certainly believe I am. I learned to avoid bragging about my intimate life at an early age...after all, who really cares?
I noticed that in the subsequent posts in this thread...just about everybody received some sort of flack from this guy.