Did I Screw Up?

[ML]

I am of course going to give her a chance to explain or make some attempt to meet me halfway on this. But I am not going to go on as I did before. She has some explaining to do. I will try to ask her carefully but I will need some answers.

Really . . . you want to give it more of a try after you know she lied about several things?

Unfortunately for some of us, there is truth in what many (most) FSU folks think about the majority of us.

[GQBlues]

....Through this all, there were a couple of nagging threads that I pulled at.  I couldn't quite put my finger on it.   She was liked by my family.   And so I began the process of bringing her to the US as my bride....

Ahhh! Another breathe of fresh air. Never, ever, abandon your wits and instinct.

[scarface816]

You know it is really sad how there is this incessant need to attack and to shame. These two previous posts are good examples.

What a miserable life you must have to be this angry that you must go on a forum and attack someone because you don't agree with them. Are you that unconscious?  Do you think that no one on here sees you?

If anyone I am the one that should be angry. But you don't see me acting petulant and nasty.

I thought there was some sort of code of conduct on this forum? Is that just a formality?

[krimster2]

scarface,

I mean no disrespect to you personally...
but an American in Ukraine, is like being a child in the adult world...

man’s natural state is one of ignorance...
all men are born naive
but experience and learning
shall make them wise

so choose the path of experience and learning and see where it takes you...

I have a “vision"

what I see is that you should use your engineering talents to start a small company in Ukraine
Kyiv would actually be a better location because of transportation, shipping issues
you will enjoy teaching your employees all the things you know
and have good relationships with them
and you will end up sleeping with and marrying one of your employees
a beautiful woman with long dark hair and a VERY kind sweet face...

no, I’m not joking...
TOTALLY what I saw in the “vision”!!!

all right, if you don’t wanna BELIEVE it, fine...



scarface, please pause for a second...
it's not gonna help ya taking this kinda defensive posture with folks, especially here...
I personally am one of the most brutal MFers on this board
I got a skin thicker than a T-70 tank with upgraded applique armor
so do most of the guys with Russian, Ukrainian experience
it comes with the territory...
I know you're a new kid, so I'm just 'splaining stuff to ya, OK?
cuz if ya wanna hang out with this crowd
ya can't say to 'em, "gee fellas why ya gotta say cuss words all the time"..
ya see what I mean by this?
AND homeboy, if you gonna go to Ukraine...
you better be a TOTAL badass!
ya feel me?

NEVER ask for mercy from anyone in Ukraine
instead you fight them back and WIN EVERY TIME!!!
horrosho?

[GQBlues]

You know it is really sad how there is this incessant need to attack and to shame. These two previous posts are good examples.

What a miserable life you must have to be this angry that you must go on a forum and attack someone because you don't agree with them. Are you that unconscious?  Do you think that no one on here sees you?

If anyone I am the one that should be angry. But you don't see me acting petulant and nasty.

I thought there was some sort of code of conduct on this forum? Is that just a formality?

Not sure if this post is directed at me, but if so you've been leashed via PM. Don't be so arrogant as to assume my post was directed in anyway to YOU.

I was pointing the fact when someone follows what their instinct drive them to, more times than not, it will not fail them as jone in his experience made clear to that point.

Petulance and nastiness obviously have a different residency than assumed. You are definitely deficit in your sense of awareness.

[Boethius]

Then I found her marriage status and it showed her as single never been married not divorced. This was another fact she had never told me. And we talked about her "ex-husband" as well as my ex-wife in our many many hours of personal conversations.

I wouldn't put too much stock into this.  She may have been in a long term relationship with a man, and considered him her husband.  I wouldn't consider this a lie.

Then I also noticed she has now visited the site where we first met.

Given what's transpired, do you think this is unreasonable?

But right now her actions are looking pretty bad. And I must say pretty sophisticated. Do I think she cared for me? Yes. Our conversations, her interest in my personal health family business and other small things show this. But I also think she was trying to get what she could. Which is deeply troubling.

They have learned a lot, and WM taught them that.   Why wouldn't their attempts to obtain money not be sophisticated?

I am of course going to give her a chance to explain or make some attempt to meet me halfway on this. But I am not going to go on as I did before. She has some explaining to do. I will try to ask her carefully but I will need some answers.

If you truly need to know, then hire a translator.  There is a poster here, Stirlitz, who does translation work.  A lot can be lost in translation, and the FSU mindset is to always take the most negative interpretation possible.

A relationship is a two-way street and just like I have been told many times Russian women respect a man who does not let them run over them.

Yeah, yeah.  I've read that.  But I don't believe it.  Every week, when I go grocery shopping, I hear FSUW berating their husbands as if the latter were dogs, or, if the women are kind, children.  It's actually rather shocking to me.

My mistake was going into this too quickly and without enough visits and time with the family. That's on me. Some people said I was desperate. I don't think so. A desperate person would not question these things, a desperate person would not walk away. I could have easily given her the money and did nothing else and went on about my merry way thinking everything was fine. Mistakes yes desperate no.

The mistake is in treating this differently than you would a relationship with an AW.  You wouldn't give an AW a monthly allowance.  You probably wouldn't get engaged to an AW after two weeks together, although I personally don't have an issue with quick marriages.

I disagree with krimster.  Don't change who you are at your core.  It always leads to failure.



This post was composed without the aid of google. 

[Gator]

You know it is really sad how there is this incessant need to attack and to shame. These two previous posts are good examples......criticism.....criticism

Scarface,
 
If a couple of posts offend you in how they presented their opinions (all of us here are different), FSUW probably are not for you. 

I generalize from my sampling.  If you are lucky enough to be a FSUW's "man," they can  be very direct, certainly not diplomatic, and sometimes hostile.  I. e., they are strong women, having survived in a world more difficult than in America.     

I found their directness different from AW, yet had some benefits.  I knew where I stood.   I knew what's on her mind, even if it was inexplicable.  And sometimes    I knew what to do next.

Not to worry,

          1.  They soon return to the woman of your dreams.
          2.  In a year or two they learn how to be more diplomatic in resolving conflicts.   

You may not have been with your FSUW long enough for this to manifest itself.    If they are only interested in knowing more about you, or if they are using you, they will be sweet. 

[Gator]

Jone, thanks for sharing your story.  Well written, and more important, well thought out.  You were wise to terminate it before marriage, even after your investment of time, emotion, and money (the least important of the three).  It is too easy to keep going, hoping things will somehow get better.  Best to listen to those inner voices saying,  "Something ain't right." 

Two points about my woman that helped to make marriage work.   

      1.  She was a challenge - she did not want to leave Russia.  She had led a good life with plenty of attention from RM.  It took years of ups and downs. 

      2.  She is Cossack.  The crusty JB, a wise warrior who had traveled all over Russia,   told me Cossack women were known for their loyalty.  Loyal to their man, their family, their friends, their country.   

[krimster2]

the intended purpose of this board may be one thing
but it’s function in reality is something else...

the true function of this board seems to be
to have a robot demolition derby
but use a buncha middle aged men instead of robots...
cheaper...

so we are but simple gladiators pitted against one another
in this arena of anger...

we’re all just a bunch of old men raging against one another
though wise men at their end, know the dark is right
see with blinding sight and learn, too late
here on these sad heights

[BillyB]

Then I also noticed she has now visited the site where we first met.

Earlier in this thread you mentioned she never lied to you and you checked up on her and she's not on any sites. Scammers, gold diggers, and green card girls like to be on lots of sites in hopes to attract as much men as possible. Your fiancée did not behave like them.

Now you feel she lied to you. Your fiancée suspects the relationship lacks trust and now having doubts spending her life with you and now looking for options. If she were truly a gold digger, she'd squeeze as much out of you as possible and say she must quit her job to prepare for a life with you so she needs a monthly allowance. I don't feel she's trying to bleed you dry asking for money to keep alive a business that gives her a job to support herself. She needs $950. Maybe I missed it but is that the total amount she needs to keep the rent paid for awhile or she needs that monthly?

[jone]

Jone,

What an amazing story. It is proof that you did your due diligence and saved yourself from a lifetime of misery if you had married her.

Maybe Krimster is right. You have to look at this as a fun adventure and not take it too seriously.

Do your due diligence and then after quality time together and learning about her family and friends then make a decision on what you should do.

Yeah.   Shoulda seen the pictures.   This gal was/is a ten on anyone's chart of beauty.    At least skin deep.

However, in the time that it took to write this response to you, another woman just walked by.   If your woman is NOT the woman for you, I can assure you, another one is there waiting.   To find her will probably take you at least sixty seconds.

[Gator]

we’re all just a bunch of old men raging against one another
though wise men at their end, know the dark is right
see with blinding sight and learn, too late
here on these sad heights

This seeing the light  better happen soon as I don't have much time left.  I am old enough to have seen Hank Williams, who sung  he saw the light but did not live as if he did.   

I went through a near-death experience, and didn't "see" anything.  I didn't see the light when the preacher pushed my young body under the water. 

[krimster2]

sounds like you came into the house with your shoes on, thinking that your wife wasn't home, but OOPS! she was!
and your ass got busted the way a watermelon would falling off the empire state building
or...
you just had a major health issue?

[Gator]

sounds like you came into the house with your shoes on, thinking that your wife wasn't home

 

Never would happen.  I am reminded by a sign the Gestapo taped on the door

               "CLEAN SHOES.  CLEAN HANDS"   

Yes, for now I am one of those rare people allowed to wear my shoes inside provided I use the shoe scraper positioned there.
 

you just had a major health issue? 

Not yet.  Instead hit by a car with  two subsequent blows to my head before a third from a face plant on the pavement.   Unconscious for a long time.  Witnesses say it looked bad, really bad, as in "We need a Priest."  I guess it went too fast  to see the light.  My last memory was an onrushing car, no light.  If I had never awakened, there would have been no light. 

A friend entered a coma from sepsis and cascading organ failure, and returned to consciousness three  days later.  He said he had no memory of drifting away, and there was no "light."

[Boethius]

I understand the traditional communist mentality does not believe in planning for the future.

No, it was the uncertainty of the post communist world that taught them that.  The rubles many had accumulated became worthless overnight.

Additionally many people are becoming like the child that you tell them you can have an expired piece of chocolate cake now, or a fresh bigger cake tomorrow, and the child will take the expired cake today.  Why are women like this?  Why do we continue to see these stories yet we dont see any new marriages?  On the other forum I was reading about a 38 year old from the US with a six figure USD income and he was asked to spend money on a phone and groceries totaling $200 and all sorts of crap but no long term plans.  why would a Ukrainian woman pass up a reasonable 38 year old American with a six figure income?

Because she is not attracted to him. 

It's not particularly difficult for a well educated Ukrainian to move abroad on their own.  I see a significant number of young Ukrainian families here.  They all came as family units, or the husband was a temporary foreign worker, and moved his family here once he obtained permanent resident status.

The average salary is what $300 per month in Ukraine, but we dont see any more marriages.  On the other forum the guy was told to go seek therapy.  Very kind of the admin.  So what's really happening?  I understand nobody wants to marry their grandfather, but this guy was 38.

His attitude sucked.

The average salary in Ukraine is US$454.  That means that half of Ukrainians make more than this, half less. Furthermore, that is an "official" salary. 

This post was composed without the aid of google.

[krimster2]

well I hope you told your wife to be more careful driving!!!
does your life insurance have double indemnity for accidental death or something....
I'd keep all those details away from your wife if I were you

so now we now know why ole gator acts the way he does, at long last causality!
he smashed in the hood of some poor guys Toyota with his HEAD while doing a Karate demonstration!

everyone in my neighborhood would say, ummm ummmm I ain't gonna mess wit dat white boy!


"Yes, for now I am one of those rare people allowed to wear my shoes inside"

an honor which has not yet been bestowed upon me
I have only distant memories of household shoe wearing from before my marriage to a Russian village girl...

OTOH, at one time I had 3 Russian women in my household, now down to 2 and one part time...
so I live pretty much a gentleman's life, with "eggs and soldiers" and toast in the morning with Jamaican coffee on the back patio overlooking the garden...
served to me, shortly after I'm seated...
IMHO, lack of shoes is a reasonable trade-off in order to have this gentleman's lifestyle...
I save an immense amount on catering, cleaning, etc, by just having my Russians do it!!!

[msmob]

Not sure if this post is directed at me, but if so you've been leashed via PM.

PM as in personal messages?

I thought you told us that you didn't use this medium to gossip?.....

[GQBlues]

PM as in personal messages?

I thought you told us that you didn't use this medium to gossip?.....

“..told us..” as in me saying any the above to everyone which includes ‘you’?

Again, quote me where I said anything of the kind, and more importantly, the inclusion of ‘your irrelevant self’. If you cannot, then by now you should know what equals ‘FAIL’ with ‘you’, right?

I will not be surprise however if it came to light you’ve PM the OP, considering the money talk in his thread, that you’ve proclaimed yourself as a matchmaker.

[BillyB]

I re-read the first post to get a better understanding about the $950

1) Your fiancée told you about problems at her work. You then recommended she quit and join her friend's practice.

2) Friend needs $950 for rent if your fiancée wants in.

3) You give your fiancée $950

4) The business makes money and she doesn't need anymore of your money to operate it.

5) Friend is pregnant and will leave. She needs $950 to cover for friend's half when she leaves or needs to find a new partner to contribute $950.

6) You come to the forum and ask if you should send the second $950

It seems to me the $950 is more than just paying rent on the space used. Let's say the friend was running a beauty salon. She then accepts a partner, your fiancée. Instead of telling your fiancée to make a large payment that covers half of all the equipment she previously bought to run the business, she asks for $950 per month to be equal partners. $950 a month buy in to be partners in a business seems reasonable.

[krimster2]

well, if scarface still wants to pursue the investigation further....
it WOULD be a great convenience to the forensic accounting detectives
to put into a table in chronological order
the various times he's given her cash or presents

Date     Amount      Purpose


always follow the money...
it leads you to the answer EVERY time

however, IMHO, what we've discussed so far should have produced some ANXIETY in Mr Scarface
so WE should give him some space,
he has to do the ONE THING I hated to do in Ukraine or Russia
and that is to say goodby to a woman
even to the one who betrayed me
and nearly got me killed
I had feeling for them and sadness when I parted.....

but brother, after a suitable grieving period
don't be a wussy BOY
get back in the saddle
and ride like the wind next time

[Trenchcoat]

When I was in high school there was a school motto that went something like this.  "Give a man fish and feed him for one day, teach a man how to fish and feed him for his lifetime".  I understand the traditional communist mentality does not believe in planning for the future.  Additionally many people are becoming like the child that you tell them you can have an expired piece of chocolate cake now, or a fresh bigger cake tomorrow, and the child will take the expired cake today.  Why are women like this?  Why do we continue to see these stories yet we dont see any new marriages?  On the other forum I was reading about a 38 year old from the US with a six figure USD income and he was asked to spend money on a phone and groceries totaling $200 and all sorts of crap but no long term plans.  why would a Ukrainian woman pass up a reasonable 38 year old American with a six figure income?  The average salary is what $300 per month in Ukraine, but we dont see any more marriages.  On the other forum the guy was told to go seek therapy.  Very kind of the admin.  So what's really happening?  I understand nobody wants to marry their grandfather, but this guy was 38.

A good question Omega

Its why guys who come across women like you have stated, like Scarface has met need to do a lot of digging, not interogating the girl over the email, messaging, as this is only likely to lead to a downward spiral but to go to where she lives and find out the ins and outs of her real life. Not the life she has told them she lives (which may or may not be true) but the everyday experience of her life, her way of living, family, social life, etc. Jone has already shown how invaluable this can be.

When I brought up about the Kherson girl I met in Kiev on here who turned out to be materialistic and manipulative some guys on here gave me a bashing as they have done with Scarface, but I percevered, I wanted to learn, so,e of what Forum members told me was true some was not on further investigation but could have been.

I knew from my experience that it was not a simply 'I got scammed' situation, that there was more to it than this. I learnt a lot over the proceeding couple of years since, I learnt that she was unlikely a scammer but a materialistic women that local men too likely find too difficult to date. I would have liked to have gone to Kherson to get a better picture of it all but our online messaging deteriorated and she in any case was refusing to see me before she visited me first.

I believe that there is a whole crowd of girls in the FSU that fall into a difficult category and that we need to explore and understand that category of women better if we are to grow and understand FSW Internationl dating scene better. Before I brought up about the Kherson girl and really went into it a lot with forum menbers here for which I took a battering there was little understanding of such women on here. They just got written off as bad girls, scammers, etc. but our discussions on here revelved over time there was more to it than that. We pooled our minds and learnt a lot from it I think.

Now Scarface has come up with a girl and its great of him to come forward about his experiences with her as it is another great learning opportunity for this forum and indeed himself if he chooses to do so. I find nothing more enlightening than lifting the fog around us and seeing what we are dealing with, then we can work with the situation from a position of knowledge and understanding which is a far more confident place to be.

The example you brought up is a good one Omega, why does such a girl go for the coupon money off discounts I call it when she could be vastly better off by getting with the guy - he's 38, earns a very good salary and comes with US citizenship. In Ukraine girls tend to look at wealth very favourably as its not something to be scoffed at there where living can be tough.

I think part of the anser is that its a game to such girls who lose sight that they are overlooking a much bigger prize. They are used to using the same old tricks to get the small gains and many are oblivious to the big prize at stake. They have turned out that way as that is the local environment they exist in. Some even call it a part of the dating encionment out there, that they would probably think of themselves as a mug if they didn't try to hit a guy with something. Not all girls do this of course, many can be very straight up.

There is also the aspect that a lot of UW are oblivious of what life is like in the west, somewhere like the UK or US. The first girl I met in Kiev had no idea that Theatre tickets cost alot more in the west that in Ukraine. I am not into theatre but went as she was and its part of the cuilture out there, out there good theatre tickets can be had for around £8-20 each, here in London it more like tentimes that amount. The Kherson girl had no idea that there is a more equal sharing of costs in the west, the 'go dutch' way.

So verall I think there is still more to learn about such women, I just don't think a lot of these women are deliberate scammers, some are and I don't think Scarface's woman played nicely with him. I think there is a particular way of playing these women and a lot of WM including myself have stuffed up and made bad mistakes and not played them how they should have been played.   

[krimster2]

some good points Trench...
over time. you'll learn to know the difference between a scammer and someone inexperienced making mistakes

[scarface816]

well, if scarface still wants to pursue the investigation further....
it WOULD be a great convenience to the forensic accounting detectives
to put into a table in chronological order
the various times he's given her cash or presents

Date     Amount      Purpose


always follow the money...
it leads you to the answer EVERY time

however, IMHO, what we've discussed so far should have produced some ANXIETY in Mr Scarface
so WE should give him some space,
he has to do the ONE THING I hated to do in Ukraine or Russia
and that is to say goodby to a woman
even to the one who betrayed me
and nearly got me killed
I had feeling for them and sadness when I parted.....

but brother, after a suitable grieving period
don't be a wussy BOY
get back in the saddle
and ride like the wind next time

Good points and good advice I believe. It describes my emotions and feelings having invested myself into this relationship wholeheartedly. And your right the betrayal is the worst part. It is not an easy thing to leave. But I think that is the right move.

Someone commented on her going back onto the dating site repeatedly and only one day after I told her no to the $950. The comment was something like "this is normal given what had transpired." What had transpired? I told her no and she immediately goes and looks for another man? Not an attempt to either contact me or barely respond when I contact her. Is this how you deal with a problem in a relationship?

A wonderful test that my friend told me and I will be using this in the future. Is to see what she does when you say no.

I probably won't use such a big thing as this to say no. But what does she do after you say no? Does she get sick? Does she try to punish you with silence or recrimination? Does she immediately start looking for another relationship or something to escalate the issue into a bigger thing?

The point of getting her back is moot I believe. I cannot maintain a relationship by myself and evidently and unknowingly that is what I have been doing. We had fun together, we enjoyed each other and had very long heartfelt sincere (I thought)  conversations and wonderful physical chemistry. But when it comes to doing vs saying. I was the only one actually doing anything.  I look back on this adventure and I cannot tell you one time where she actually did anything for me. A small gift on my birthday, or cook a meal or make something. Anything. All actions invested in the relationship were by me. This is very telling and a blindspot I missed.

I wonder if I told her I changed my mind and will send her the $950 she would change her attitude?

There was another question about the $950 and it being more than rent and being for other business expenses. I asked her about this. She was adamant that it was only rent and that was the only expense. Which probably leads to another and bigger lie. Even in the most basic self-employed work you have other expenses. And she never mentioned these or seemed to be cognizant of these. I talked about marketing activities to get customers (one of the biggest challenges to any business) and other things and she seemed to not have much to say or be very interested.

All of this indicates to me another and bigger lie. And judging from what I have found out about her business address and the nature of the building. I don't believe there was a business at all. It was probably just where she works.

Time to move on. Going to the beach today. And tomorrow hanging out with my kids. Thanks for all of the advice and information. It was invaluable and a bit painful. lol

[krimster2]

"A wonderful test that my friend told me and I will be using this in the future. Is to see what she does when you say no."

oh, what a MIGHTY little "pearl of wisdom" that is!!!
HIGHLY impressed that a first timer learned this...
this is WHY I am optimistic about you, while being pessimistic towards so many others who have come here!!!

so what's your next move?
what are your thoughts about the future?
I really hope you don't abandon your quest!!!

on one hand, you've SEEN what's in Ukraine (yummy!)
on the other, you just had your first scammer
but NOW you know the territory MUCH better than you did before!!!

so this experience dramatically increasees your chances for success - NEXT TIME!
don't throw this hard earned experience away, because then it would be a waste
instead of simply being a stepping stone to success

you coulda built a house out of all my stepping stones!!!

chin up!!
foot in the stirrup!
this feelin will pass

and then lo and behold
look what you find!!
anticipate THIS!!!


I have a sense that you're a pretty smart guy
but you have a lot to learn about "living in the jungle" over there
and you just got your first lesson...

the journey is also part of the reward
Ukraine is an amazing place to experience
and you seem like a guy who will be smart enuff to learn all he needs to learn to survive there...
you just need to decide if that's what ya wanna do vrs some other choice...

[Boethius]

Someone commented on her going back onto the dating site repeatedly and only one day after I told her no to the $950. The comment was something like "this is normal given what had transpired." What had transpired? I told her no and she immediately goes and looks for another man? Not an attempt to either contact me or barely respond when I contact her. Is this how you deal with a problem in a relationship?

She recognized what you apparently did not.  It wasn't the "No."  It was because you didn't trust her.  She recognized that immediately.  Alternately, you were no longer an attractive mark.  You don't have a relationship, and how could you, after two weeks together??

A woman's shelf life, particularly that of an FSUW in the WM market, is short. 

Or, she may have assumed you will check if she's logged in, and her doing so was a message to you - "Don't assume I am reliant on you.  I'm not."

This post was composed without the aid of google.