Update - 13 years later

[fathertime]

Now go change your diapers.

My point proven actually!


As soon as you change the soiled pamper around your little wooden head.


Fathertime! 

[Gator]

I mention there was no wrongdoing and you reply as follows:

 
The man was quite older, much older than her. He knew exactly what he was doing......Please tell me she had the savvy of this man who was around her father's age........You want some candy little girl, heh, heh, heh.

Muzh,

Such statements reveal your belief that a marriage with an age gap is WRONG because the older man is savvy enough to connive a young inexperienced woman to enter marriage she should never consider.     BTW, he was 44, she was 22 when they met, and his photos show him to be a handsome, fit man.

Given your belief, there is no need to discuss the issue.  It is like discussing Obamacare, Benghazi, IRS, wire taps, Rosengate, Fast and Furious, etc. with someone who believes Republicans are racists and liars and that Obama is being prevented by Congress from making America better.

I guess your wife is your age.  Ideally she should be a few years older than you given the mortality differences between men and women.   

[Gator]

Northkape,

You have an interesting story to tell, one far from complete.  It started out as controversial, and I considered your story bizarre at first.  Yet with your elaborations I could understand and respect your plan and the I commended what you and Lena are attempting to do.

As with many interesting stories with some controversy, your story has become sidetracked by the judgmentalists.  You have been disparaged if not assailed for a variety of reasons. 

The anti-bridal agency crowd say you preyed on an innocent woman.  Perhaps you are accused of more (I have the Chief anti-MOBer on IGNORE and can not read his posts, and I am sure they are not commendable).

The RW accuse you of being a sex tourist, a moral abuser, a saboteur of your wife's career, and perhaps other charges that I have forgotten.

Let us not forget the child abuser charge level by one member. 

There was a hint of pedophilia in one comment; however, I assume such was stated metaphorically.

In summary, you will not change the minds of your critics and detractors.  They don't work that way.   When criticized, you have provided explanations and clarifications.   Did you can see how the judgmentalists picked and chose from the new information you provided?

I hope you complete your story.  I want to see more photos such as the one of your battered wheel and tire.   Not many guys rent a car for these trips.   Also, I want to see photos of your future fiancée.

I have a few suggestions for how to continue:. 

-   You can ask the mods to move your story to the Trip reports Sans Response.  This would require some work by the mods because they would have to separate all posts from members other than you.  If I had a question, I could PM you.   

-   Alternatively, you could continue to tell your story where it is and ignore those who make comments you think wrong or inappropriate.   

-  Also, I am doing you a disservice by responding to the others.  So as of NOW, I will not make any more comments to your detractors.

Good luck, and thanks for sharing your interesting story.   

[Gylden]

Funny how Doll dissapeared right after she said she had invited Lena to the forum?

I wonder if Lena confirmed what NK is saying?

The collective imagination of this RWD group is going to waste......should be writting "who done its".

 

[calmissile]

I mention there was no wrongdoing and you reply as follows:


Muzh,

Such statements reveal your belief that a marriage with an age gap is WRONG because the older man is savvy enough to connive a young inexperienced woman to enter marriage she should never consider.     BTW, he was 44, she was 22 when they met, and his photos show him to be a handsome, fit man.

Given your belief, there is no need to discuss the issue.  It is like discussing Obamacare, Benghazi, IRS, wire taps, Rosengate, Fast and Furious, etc. with someone who believes Republicans are racists and liars and that Obama is being prevented by Congress from making America better.

I guess your wife is your age.  Ideally she should be a few years older than you given the mortality differences between men and women.   

You hit the nail on the head!
By any chance is Muzh married to Mies?

[fathertime]

Funny how Doll dissapeared right after she said she had invited Lena to the forum?

I wonder if Lena confirmed what NK is saying?

The collective imagination of this RWD group is going to waste......should be writting "who done its".

 

Could be,  it is also funny how when another female poster got called out and criticized for her nasty insinuations about NK, she got so upset that she refuses to 'talk' to me anymore....now she has the site munchkin speaking for her.  haha


Fathertime! 

[missAmeno]

MissA
Have you forgot what I told about our boys daily life.. smile

Taking our boys away from their private school, their piano teacher, paint teacher and gymnastics teacher would be over Lena's dead body.
These teachers are all personal friends of us, and have been together with our boys since they were four years old.
It's impossible for an outsider to understand our relationship with them, and their love for our boys.
So let this be very clear, she wants the boys to stay here in my hometown with me, whatever happens in the future.

It took us years to find and build a relationship with these gifted persons.
And they have used years, building a loving relationship with our boys.
It is not allowed and not advisable to take the boys out of school and we would never, ever allow it.
So they couldn't stay in Oslo on weekdays, it's quite simply not possible.

Lena loves all of what I'm giving of my life to her sons, she see and understand my position in their lives.
I'm learning and teaching them about all possible things young boys could find interesting in our "universe"
They are bright and multi talented boys with a never ending desire for exploring and learning,
so we do our very best for providing a rich and saturated environment for their life's in all of it's aspects.
As much as she loves her boys, she truly wants them to be with me, as their best friend and father, always available for them.

No, I have not forgotten. But ... come on  ... we are talking after all about woman  ... and mother of course as well as two young children.

Give mother few months away from her boys when she has limited time with them and emotions could well overwrite any logic. She will be missing them and therefore could change her mind, look for good school in Oslo and try re-arrange lessons with coaches/teachers for weekends (or any other arrangements).
Same for boys, give them some time away from mum and they may say they do not want any coaching/lessons/etc if they are the reasons they can not be with their mum.
As I said before regardless how much you (and I mean both you and your wife) know your sons you can not fully predict how they will cope with situation in months forward.
I am aware that I am complete stranger to you and my advice have no value whatsoever but still I hope you will consider my words and think about possibility of things not going by the plan you and your wife made so far. Think about if boys and/or their mother do not cope well with separation what other arrangements could be made.

[Boethius]

I mention there was no wrongdoing and you reply as follows:


Muzh,

Such statements reveal your belief that a marriage with an age gap is WRONG because the older man is savvy enough to connive a young inexperienced woman to enter marriage she should never consider.     BTW, he was 44, she was 22 when they met, and his photos show him to be a handsome, fit man.

Given your belief, there is no need to discuss the issue.  It is like discussing Obamacare, Benghazi, IRS, wire taps, Rosengate, Fast and Furious, etc. with someone who believes Republicans are racists and liars and that Obama is being prevented by Congress from making America better.

I guess your wife is your age.  Ideally she should be a few years older than you given the mortality differences between men and women.   

That is not what he is saying.  It's not the age gap per se, but her relative youth vs his middle age. 

I believe what Muzh is saying is, there is a huge difference between knowing what you want at age 45, and knowing what you want at age 22. So, from that perspective, there is not equal culpability, as this was not a marriage of equals.  When it became a marriage of equals, she said she wanted changes in the marriage.   You, OTOH, focused on northkape's physical attributes, rather than what really matters in a marriage.  This misses the boat.  It's not even in the same ocean.

Were you the same person at 45 that you were at 22?  At 35? 

[Boethius]

Funny how Doll dissapeared right after she said she had invited Lena to the forum?

I wonder if Lena confirmed what NK is saying?

The collective imagination of this RWD group is going to waste......should be writting "who done its".

 

She posted slightly more than 24 hours ago, so she didn't exactly disappear.

[Muzh]

Given your belief, there is no need to discuss the issue.  It is like discussing Obamacare, Benghazi, IRS, wire taps, Rosengate, Fast and Furious, etc. with someone who believes Republicans are racists and liars and that Obama is being prevented by Congress from making America better.

I guess your wife is your age.  Ideally she should be a few years older than you given the mortality differences between men and women.   

This is...., wait, what's the word? Hmmm
 
A ha! This is subterfuge!!
 

 
 
As unplesant as it may be for you, let's stick to the point.
 
Years ago, (and I have written about it here and there) I was in a situation where I had the same opportunity of developing a relationship with a child. Yes, she was in her early 20s and 20+ years younger than me. I sat down with her and explained to her why it was not a good idea and, as flattered as I was, I had to be the better person and set her on the right path. It literally felt like I was talking to a daughter.
 
Now, you may see nothing wrong with it but I do. (I also noticed the older crowd getting their Depends^TM in a twist)
 
And to answer your question, my wife is younger than me. However, at 32 she didn't behave like my daughter when we met. Maybe yours, but not mine.
 
Oh, and that little issue about minimizing the children's damage by going for young booty, let me give you my personal experience.
 
My father was a pig. He went to his tomb as a pig. And I hope he rots in hell.
 
How about that for minimizing the children's emotional state.

[Muzh]

Could be,  it is also funny how when another female poster got called out and criticized for her nasty insinuations about NK, she got so upset that she refuses to 'talk' to me anymore....now she has the site munchkin speaking for her.  haha


Fathertime!

If you'd stop being so angry at her maybe she'll resume her dialogue with you.

[Muzh]

That is not what he is saying.  It's not the age gap per se, but her relative youth vs his middle age. 

I believe what Muzh is saying is, there is a huge difference between knowing what you want at age 45, and knowing what you want at age 22. So, from that perspective, there is not equal culpability, as this was not a marriage of equals.  When it became a marriage of equals, she said she wanted changes in the marriage.   You, OTOH, focused on northkape's physical attributes, rather than what really matters in a marriage.  This misses the boat.  It's not even in the same ocean.

Were you the same person at 45 that you were at 22?  At 35?

LMAO
 
Notice how conviniently he decided he is NOT going to answer anymore to his 'detractors.'

[northkape]

Gator
You know from my history here, that I don't care about drivel from people who haven't yet learned how to behave, when communicating on a forum.
Very few of the comments here would have been voiced in such a resenting and berating manner, face to face by the same people.
Life would be unbearable for them, if they behaved like this with all people they disagree with in their daily life.
But when anonymous, they feel free to let go of all their manners, and release all of their trapped aggression towards those they feel entitled to correcting.

This is a sad fact of most forums, whatever the topics being discussed.
The only forums that I have seen with a friendly and civil tone, where those were you had to verify your identity and sign with you real name.

One of the "immature" female posters here, told about herself yesterday, that she feels deep anger and frustration when reading comments here.
For sure that makes it easier to understand her seemingly unstable emotional outbursts and her irrational reasoning about things unknown to her.

The day I get emotionally upset by reading comments on a forum from strangers I will never meet with,
or start to feel entitled to advise strangers about how they should live their personal lives,,,,  well, then I would rather go fishing or do something else.

MissA
I'm not sure if it was easily understandable in my previous postings, but I do share your worries.
If only they were worries, sadly it's a rather plausible projection of what I see happening already.

Lena would put an end to her career, and move here, before even thinking about hurting her boys by taking them out of their school.

Another thing that is difficult to understand for outsiders worried about my boys, is their relationship between them.
Even for being twins, they are extremely closely connected, having their own little closed "family", that it is sometimes hard for me and Lena to enter into.
For me this appear to be a robust unit, that seemingly makes them much less sensitive to the situation between me and Lena.
From what I have seen so far, they are not going to miss their mother as long as they see her regularly, and communicate with her by phone and mail daily.

But Lena is going to miss them terribly and most of all, feel very frustrated about being unable to take care of every little detail in their life.
What will be the outcome of this is anybody's guess, but I know there will be some tough conflicts for me to handle at some points in the future.
Hopefully she will be so busy with her new career starting next year, that she will be unable to worry too much about us....
And if she could be so lucky to find a nice man also, it would probably help a lot, for her to be able to concentrate on her new life.

more later

[Muzh]

Where have I heard this before?
 
The same reasoning and rationale. Hmmm. So familial.
 
 
Hey Northkape, you came to this public forum for a good reason. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you wanted to get some opinions. So far you have over 18 pages and mounting.
 
Now, you are not saying you don't like what you are hearing, are you?
 
One mistake many people make here is that the members would never say what they say here in person. Face-to-face. They do so because they are annonymous.
 
Well, I see it differently. I see these forums like conferences where most people are annonymous but do share a common goal. I bet you, Northkape, that you have been to some meeting like this in your lifetime.
 
Well, surprise!!! There will be people who will agree and disagree with your position when presented to the quorum. And trust me, they will say it to your face if they feel strongly about it. Ask Gator. he's been to numerous conferences. I mean, I know they will refrain form the nasty words and all (you hope), but the main idea will be expressed.
 
So what do you do then?
 
Dismiss your detractors?
 
If so, what is the purpose of you attending the conference in the first place?
 
To find 'traditional' women who will make home cosy and cook tasty dishes?
 
Most likely it seems.

[The Natural]

Very few of the comments here would have been voiced in such a resenting and berating manner, face to face by the same people.
Life would be unbearable for them, if they behaved like this with all people they disagree with in their daily life.
But when anonymous, they feel free to let go of all their manners, and release all of their trapped aggression towards those they feel entitled to correcting.

That is exactly true and I've been writing a little bit on that previously. Even anonymous, being on the chat site, the few times I've been there, people seem very easy-going, even the ones I disagrees with often here.

I've thought about it sometimes, that maybe it should be mandatory to present oneself with the full legal name in order to write on the Internet. This anonymity thing leds certain people to let out their inner demons in writing and that is not constructive in any way. Just look at the YouTube comments, I guess 95% of it is rubbish that they would not dream of voicing face-to-face.

This is a sad fact of most forums, whatever the topics being discussed.
The only forums that I have seen with a friendly and civil tone, where those were you had to verify your identity and sign with you real name.

I don't frequent forums at all except this one, these days. But there is one exception to the rule you outlined, a forum I posted in regularly when I was building my home cinema, an A/V forum in Norway where the members were very polite and constructive in 99% of the cases. And it is anonymous. So it can be done....

[Ade]

Of course, the lack of anonymity on the net would leave a person open to all kinds of wack-adoodle paranoid nut jobs that could threaten their family in RL over disagreements on silly discussion forums.

[northkape]

Mush
You are as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.
And we are both free to read and respond to whatever we want.
You are of course welcome to wonder about what I understand or not, why I'm here and whatever I'm going to do about this or that.
But I see no reason why I should justify my presence and reasons for being here to you, or anyone else for that matter.

For me, I don't care really, why you are here, or for what reasons you find it interesting to comment my story.
I simply have no time for those who are unable to comment in a way that I consider to be constructive.
If you want to reach out for communicating with someone, I would kindly advise you to not write like those last two lines in your comment.

Natural
You will find many smaller local Forums in a place like Norway, where a lot of the participants have a feeling that they can be identified.
And for sure, the debate in such places is very friendly and constructive compared to what you find in a forum like this one.
What is sad about it, in my experience throughout the years, is that the nice and friendly persons disappear and the "trolls" remain.
Many forums I was familiar with, died slowly when only the "trolls" were left to harass anyone new entering the forum.
 

[jone]

I have no problem saying to a man's face what I say here:

Hey, you're getting a divorce.  Not a killer.

Spend time with your children.  They take precedence.  Do not go looking for a replacement wife until they have gone through the assimilation period of accepting the divorce.  If you get married or start a new relationship before Mom's even out the door they will resent the hell out of you.  And they are smart enough to figure things out.  Just like we are.

Duh!

But GQ and Muzh, you have said one thing I heartily agree with.  This thread is now many pages long and the OP hears what he wants to hear and dismisses everything else.  We are no longer writing for the OP's behalf, but telling the rest of the world that we are understanding enough that we do not fall for his bullshit.

I still say he's an internet whack job.

[fathertime]

If you'd stop being so angry at her maybe she'll resume her dialogue with you.

Muzh,  I am not angry with HER (Mies), but I wanted to give her a little taste of her own medicine...if she wants to shell up because of this, then that is her choice...it is weak though, but no big deal...and I don't need to go further at this time if she gets the point...which is not to just start throwing around that a man,husband,father...is an abusive sex tourist without some real evidence...as I've said earlier, this poster NK doesn't seem like a bad guy at all based on what he has said...He has an interesting story, a nice looking family,  and deserved some cover from somebody when the BOLOGNA started getting thrown about. 


Fathertime!   

[Gator]

But Lena is going to miss them terribly and most of all, feel very frustrated about being unable to take care of every little detail in their life.
What will be the outcome of this is anybody's guess, but I know there will be some tough conflicts for me to handle at some points in the future.
Hopefully she will be so busy with her new career starting next year, that she will be unable to worry too much about us....
And if she could be so lucky to find a nice man also, it would probably help a lot, for her to be able to concentrate on her new life.

As I stated before you seem well adjusted for what you are going through.  And very caring too.  You will do fine, but you knew that already.   It is us, not you, having trouble getting a grasp.

Gator
You know from my history here, that I don't care about drivel from people who haven't yet learned how to behave, when communicating on a forum.

I trust that you are reading the many ideas and concerns being floated here by RWD members whose perspective differs from yours.  RWD members are not idiots, and there may even be something you have not previously considered.  Even if you decide it is not for you, merely considering it makes you even more confident in your plans. 

No matter how smart one head is, two heads are smarter than one.  And at RWD we have 100 heads.      With that many different perspectives, some ideas being floated will be wrong.  Yet there could be some jewels for you. 

A detractor or two may complain that you are not listening to them.  How ironic that  they are not listening to your reasons and detailed explanations.     When all is said and done, it is your family, your decision, and I am certain you know far better than us what is best for all. 

When do you meet more women?    I imagine your hands are full with the holidays and two young sons without Lena being there every day to help.

 

[fathertime]

When do you meet more women?    I imagine your hands are full with the holidays and two young sons without Lena being there every day to help.

I, like i'm sure a few others here spent some time raising children alone...as cliche as it is, you become a personal shuttle service...Softball team/track practice/volleyball tourny/tutoring/'school events...etc etc... but then when the children become more independent, you look back and miss those times a little bit...


What I would say to NK is to immerse yourself as much as possible and reasonable with the boys while you can, and of course date a few women here and there....take your time with finding a woman....in a couple/few years they will be independent and outta the house maybe even...at that point he could really dive into women again...but hey the calendar stops for nobody so I get the feeling of urgency he may feel now too!


Fathertime!   

[mies]

and I don't need to go further at this time if she gets the point...

No, please do. Please do go as far as you can. Bring it on. I demand it.
That will show nicely what kind of  person you are and what are the values you are defending. 

And could you please repeat, what exactly point are you trying to prove to me? What valuable (unsolicited) lesson are you giving away?

[northkape]

Mies
Please let it go,,,
In my opinion, it's just littering this thread with "nonsense" of no value to any of us.
I'm sure both you and Fathertime are able to say "Sorry" and move on to something worthwhile using your free time for.
 

[northkape]

Jone
You were "accusing" me of ignoring you,,, smile
Of course when you label me as an "internet whack job" you aren't exactly inviting me either,,, agree?

Fathertime
Thanks for the supporting words..
And really,, I use almost every minute of my free time together with my boys.
I decided when young that I would marry and have kids late in my life.
After I was finished living out all of my dreams and all great things I wanted to do in life.
My reasoning was that, after finishing with my priorities, I would have my life available for spending together with my family.

Gator
More women waiting in line behind me.... smile

Bo
You can say that in general,, "a person at 45, probably knows more about what he wants from life than one at 22", and it might be true.
But you can't do this on an individual level.
I'm sure there are persons at 45 that have no idea about what they want from life and those at 22 that knows perfectly well what they want from life.
And a phrase like: "knowing what you want" can't be objectively verified as true or false by someone looking in, from the outside either.

Was it a marriage of equals in all aspects according to your scale?
I don't know and will never know either, because I don't know your definition of "equal" in such a context.
And even if you specified it for me now, it wouldn't help, as I can't return and check with your yardstick.

But does it matter at all, after the fact,, is it really preferable for everyone to marry their "equal"?
if so, where in personality and qualities do they need to be equal.

For me I know what equals I am looking for,,, always knew, and will of course choose by the same scale again, this time around.

[GQBlues]

....But GQ and Muzh, you have said one thing I heartily agree with.  This thread is now many pages long and the OP hears what he wants to hear and dismisses everything else.  We are no longer writing for the OP's behalf, but telling the rest of the world that we are understanding enough that we do not fall for his bullshit....

That's pretty much the gist of it. I still like the fact NK's wifey did have an opportunity to seek out and find her personal value and identity within their marriage. That's always a good thing. But beyond all else, how they're handling their situation at the present time is really up to them. If NK feels the only answer and value to his current situation is to import a younger Ukrainian woman into his life and kids', oh well...his choice.


I do find it funny how multiple losers from the past always seem to come to dish out advice and gospels about how to have successful relationship 101' as though they actually 'know' what it takes to have one. LOL.

...I still say he's an internet whack job...

Maybe. Don't know or care. Just hope the kids will be fine and are able to discern life's inconsistencies on their own with all of these things going on...