Very altruistic words, Shadow.If only they would have listened to me Jone.
Should have told them to the Russians back in March. The entire Eastern Ukrainian campaign was created by the Russians. The promises that they made to the Eastern Ukrainians and the wholesale infiltration of Russian nationals on Ukrainian soil is the cause of the conflict in Donetsk and Luhansk.
You're a bright guy. Why did the 'Ukrainians' seeking democracy at the onset of the Eastern Campaign attack the Opera House in Kharkiv?
All conflict in the East was manufactured.
Six months ago, Ukraine was a pro-Russian country that hated Yanukovych but was also indifferent and yet somewhat favorable to Putin. Now, that's changed. The mask is off.Do you feel that change has made people better? Hating their own politicians is something that happens in almost every country. Hating fellow countrymen so much they are able to kill is something entirely different.
I remember the film Doctor Zhivago where all this woman carried a dead baby around and then I see the propaganda pictures both sides post. It is ghoulish. There are legitimate questions and inquiries that both sides could discuss and yet we play these stupid games on this forum. We are not the UN. Nothing will change from a policy point of view, but a lot of people have interesting life experience. Instead we play topic change, Mr. Cheap Shot and who can one up each other on why America is such a horrible country. Meanwhile people on both sides are dying.And you have taken more than part in such games. What do you feel it has done for you other than getting a bigger e-penis?
There is one douche bag on this forum who calls me a warmonger. I have been to war. I posed my DD-214 online, if you want to see it, because I got sick of these never evers questioning my courage. When I was a kid, I favored war because it gave finality to conflicts. Yet in my lifetime having seen dead bodies, crumpled up buildings and hatred live on after the carnal harbors of that hatred have died and passed on this black inheritance to their children. What's it all for if we do not win the peace?
Winning and maintaining the peace takes wisdom and love. Those are thing that are in short supply in the world. I guess it is should be no surprise there isn't a lot of wisdom on the pages of this forum. But its still hard to watch.
Do you feel that change has made people better?
Hating their own politicians is something that happens in almost every country.
Hating fellow countrymen so much they are able to kill is something entirely different.
Why don't you hold the post-Soviets to the same standards as you do to the Banderlogs?I do. Yet you should know that once a war begins there is no good or evil.
Put on your thinking caps, people!Should they be made of tinfoil?
If only they would have listened to me Jone.
Through our contacts there I warned them that all Russia would ever take was Crimea, and the best the others could hope for was federalization. But people were convinced they would manage to break free from a government they dispise and that has given them zero reason to think otherwise.
As for the idea that Russians orchestrated the conflict, it is laughable when you have the information that I have.
Look at the polls that you and Boethius posted and you will see that most people had no wish to join Russia, which I fully agree with. However not wanting to join Russia does equal support for the government in Kiev.
Do you feel that change has made people better? Hating their own politicians is something that happens in almost every country. Hating fellow countrymen so much they are able to kill is something entirely different.
And you have taken more than part in such games. What do you feel it has done for you other than getting a bigger e-penis?
Should they be made of tinfoil?
If I had told you 2 years ago, that the NSA was recording all your phone calls (not just a record of who called who, but the actual audio), emails, etc. and was gathering data on every one of the 300 million people in the USA, plus millions more around the world, would you have believed me?Yes.
Yet you should know that once a war begins there is no good or evil.
That is true. I have seen good and bad men die. I think you agree that it is better that bad men live and their plans for evil are frustrated than to be killed. That must be our common goal.The common goal should be to allow all people to live in peace and let their voice be heard.
I fully subscribe to the idea that there is not much love for Kyiv in the Donbas and Lugansk. But, by a wide majority, these people were not in favor of creating their own state. The referendum was manufactured, Soviet style. If there were an honest plebiscite, it would easily have disclosed this. People find it hard to vote their minds when a Kalashnikov staring you in the face.That depends on the moment you speak about. While you may feel that any vote that goes against your convictions must have been under force, the reality can be very different. If your government would attack your state by force and disallow it to be voting in important national matter, would you not change from supporting the union to let is become free?
As for your e-penis statement, that is shameful. It is totally beneath that which we had hoped to come from you.When you post trollish pictures that seem to contribute nothing but to increase tensions the only possible reason would be extension of the e-penis. At least that is how I see it. If the word penis offends you, spend more time on the internet.
You have no claim to singular claim to love of the Russian or Ukrainian peoples. You constantly claim 'insider' information, as if you, personally, were presenting the case to the Donbas. Get over yourself.I have contact to social media groups that give very detailed information. Through different groups both camps are represented. This means that any news gets to me long before any media break the story, and I have seen the distortions of the news story many times.
There was a nonviolent way to accomplish the political objectives of the so called LNR and DNR. They weren't interested in that. Why?Which of the many non-existent offers do you mean? As for why they are reluctant to take any offer, until now any postive offer has been followed the next day by an attack. That makes people sceptical of any offer.
Unfortunately this gave hope to the region that has traditionally supported Russia for accomplishing something similar. Already before they had shown not to accept the government change and demanded that their voice would still be heard even if the president from their region was now considered former president. While initially their only request was to be heard inside Ukraine, and they had no wish to separate, their protests were met with more violence as the protests of Euromaidan, without the international attention. As the government in Kiev refused to defuse the situation by talking and instead chose for increasingly violent answers, the simple call to be heard evolved in to the civil war that is now taking place. Reason for this is mostly the propaganda and misinformation fed.
This led to them becoming more radical in their thoughts and protests very fast. Within a short time their targets changed to autonomy and separation from Ukraine.
I didn't see your post directed at me, Shadow, but now that you redirect, fine. I can handle insults.Please accept my apologies if you feel insulted by anything I state. It is not meant as such, just reflecting your own statements.
So, as you say, your direct insight into social media groups give you the advantage of everyone on the forum, well, let us all lay prostrate at your feet and await your next protestation of how bad everyone is here on the forum and how much more you know.
Shadow, you're better than this. We all have heard marvelous things come from your keyboard. Where's that guy?
Believe in the propaganda all you want. I happen to disagree.
The majority of the people in the Donbas did not support federalization, or independence. Even in Donetsk (the city, not the oblast), support was never more than 50% for federalization.
If you look at how the protests occurred, there was a pattern. Almost identical protests also occurred in Dnepropetrovsk, Kharkiv, and Odesa. We know what quelled the protests in Odesa. In Kharkiv, the "pro Russian separatists" admitted, during the heat of conflict, that they were being paid, that they had been trained by what they assumed was the Russian secret service, and that they were getting direction from Russia. In Kharkiv, the mayor stopped the protests, and all is calm. In Dnepropetrovsk, Kolomoisky stopped the protests, and all is calm. In the Donbas region, no one took action to stop the protests. Kyiv did not take decisive action, waiting for the election of a new president. In that period, Russia did provide mercenaries, arms, and monies to the "separatists". Most of the "separatists" were Russian nationals, not locals. We can argue about who was funding those "separatists", some accuse Yanukovych, others accuse oligarchs, and others, the Russian government. I suspect all were involved. However, it is irrelevant, as the point is, outside forces came in the "lead" people who largely did not want separation.
See above. In the entire region, untrue, there was never more than 30% support for the separatists. As I stated, in Donetsk, Slovyansk, and perhaps Lugansk, that may have been as high as 50%, but no more. In Slovyansk, the "separatists" terrorized the locals, kidnapping for ransom, beating them, and carrying out extra judicial killings.You assume the false narrative of a desire to separate from Kyiv is true. While those in the region have issues with the removal of Yanukovych, and the perception (perhaps justified) that their interests are not represented by the new Rada, the violence was not spontaneous, and it came from outside the region.
Some say both sides are to blame.
We’re afraid of the Ukrainian army, which is firing on the city, and of the rebels of the Donetsk People’s Republic, who are robbing and killing civilians,” said Dmitry Andronov, a 47-year-old resident.[/[/font][/color]quote]
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/08/09/rebel-forces-are-surrounded-by-ukrainian-army-says-insurgent-leader/ (http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/08/09/rebel-forces-are-surrounded-by-ukrainian-army-says-insurgent-leader/)
As for your e-penis statement, that is shameful. It is totally beneath that which we had hoped to come from you. You have no singular claim to love of the Russian or Ukrainian peoples. You constantly claim 'insider' information, as if you, personally, were presenting the case to the Donbas. Get over yourself.
I have watched the US pull the same stuff that Russia did in this situation over the years I've been alive. Russia is just not as good at it. It all seemed so amateurish. And 1300 bodies later, not to mention the airline, Russia is still claiming non-involvement.
REALLY, you are the one that tries to claim 'insider' information! YOU are the one that has emoted a dozen times your 'love for the Russian people'...
There was nothing THAT offensive about Shadow's E-penis statement, so it is funny that you are pretending to be 'above' all of this because you say the same sort of things just using different words.
This is true, the USA has pulled the same stuff as Russia and made it less obvious or thrown more resources at it, at least to this point....as far as I'm concerned that should take us out of the equation in this particular dispute. We have no leg to stand on, without being complete hypocrites. Getting tied up in Iraq again will likely be a good 'out' for us regarding this conflict (and it may not be a coincidence)...I wouldn't call it a green light just yet for Russia, but it might wind up being just that...we shall see...Meanwhile the sanctions are now harming both us and them.
Fathertime!
There is a dramatic amount of difference between Shadow saying something, who has been there and done that, and someone coming on this website who has no special interest in Ukraine/Russia/Eastern Europe, but just loves to shoot his mouth off. Those of us who have friends and family in these countries have used this outlet to vent our hopes and fears. You, on the other hand, have neither friends nor family in Eastern Europe.
Your sole perspective is as an American citizen and how the US shouldn't get involved, militarily. We hear you. Many times over. And then many times after that. It is an opinion shared by almost all of the users of this forum. Unfortunately, lacking a reference point, it is hard for you to understand people who are worried about their family members fighting or friends being drafted.
None of my posts were directed towards you. I wonder why that is?
You will never believe the fact that the majority of the populations in this region did not support the "separatists". If they had, Ukrainian forces would never have retaken the regions that they have.
You had no problem shooting your mouth off trying to put Shadow down (for the same things you do)so I don't know why you are groaning about being called out again. It doesn't matter to me if you direct a post at me or not...I will still direct an occasional post at you when I feel like it. Maybe my POV mostly comes from being interested in the USA staying out, although it was me that made you stand down when you INSISTED Russia was going to invade 4 months ago, when I didn't believe it to be true. Once again you are claiming Russia is going to be invading, and this time they might....although there is still some fading hope the two sides will reach some sort of agreement to avert it.
Fathertime!
We hear you. Many times over. And then many times after that.
(http://fullscalesports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/sammy.jpg)
No "propaganda" stated oligarchs were funding the terrorists.I have always maintained the view that there is propaganda from both sides.
Russian journalists wrote "propaganda" about missing mercenaries, whose bodies were transported back to Russia.
It was not "propaganda" that Poroshenko declared a unilateral ceasefire, and the terrorists used that ceasefire to kill and wound close to 100 soldiers and border patrols.
I've linked the "propaganda" from residents of cities Ukraine has retaken, telling their views of the "separatists" they supported. That "propaganda", incidentally, also includes their criticism of Ukrainian forces for shelling their cities, causing massive destruction and, at times, death.
Even the Russians admit the "propaganda" that they have amassed tens of thousands on the Ukrainian border, though, of course, they claim it is "regular military exercises".
You will never believe the fact that the majority of the populations in this region did not support the "separatists". If they had, Ukrainian forces would never have retaken the regions that they have.
I have always maintained the view that there is propaganda from both sides.
A tip of the hat to aljazeera
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/8/10/long-before-the-fearofwartherewasfearoffrackinginukraine.html (http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/8/10/long-before-the-fearofwartherewasfearoffrackinginukraine.html)
1. Your use of polls that are correct, yet do not ask the correct questions, nor are valid in a fast changing situation. If you would ask the same question one year ago, six months ago and today you would see a shift in answers.
In March the people did not want Ukraine to break apart. That was before they were bombed and shot at by their own government. Their opinion may have changed.
Similar, a question if someone supports a division of Ukraine is not the same as a question if someone supports the Kiev government. Twisting the answer like it does is propaganda.
2. Your use of personal disaster stories. Atrocities happen and happen on both sides. It is a civil war and unfortunately both sides try to demonize the other, as there is a mental barrier to kill another human being that is considered equal.
Once people are brought in to a state where the other side is seen as less human, this brings forth an altered state of mind in which people do atrocius things. I will never say that is good, but I will say it is an effect of (civil) war.
However to bring these stories is a way to demonize the group to which those who committed them belong. That is propaganda.
What has some (presumably American) baseball player got to do with any of this?
shale gas fields near Slovyansk — with a potential reserve of about 3 trillion cubic meters of gas — were the cause of constant tension between Russia and Ukraine. (at the Russian price of $430 per 1,000 cu meters this is worth (drum roll) $1.2 trillion!!!!!)
FatherTime,
Burisma Holdings hired Joe Jr. and also hired Devon Archer who was a campaign manage for John Kerry and is a trustee for the Heinz Family, you know "The" Heinz Co. who agreed to be purchased by Berkshire Hathaway and 3G Capital for $23 Billion, Joe Jr and Devon Archer together founded Rosemont Realty, which must own over a billion in prime US office space
our country (The USA) will make profits somehow I imagineNothing wrong with JVs providing the split doesn't screw the locals completely.
Interesting Krimster...so now Biden AND Kerry have very close links to this gas company... I can completely see why there is so much distrust of the west. Our credibility was already shot, but now it is doubly shot!
To look on the bright (greedy) side, if indeed things go the way the US wants them to go, our country (The USA) will make profits somehow I imagine...and that is good for me personally.
Fathertime!
Shooter is getting royally drunk right now as he awaits his execution.
http://www.unian.net/politics/949657-strelok-bejal-iz-donetska-i-besprobudno-pet-sovetnik-avakova.html (http://www.unian.net/politics/949657-strelok-bejal-iz-donetska-i-besprobudno-pet-sovetnik-avakova.html)
Burisma Holdings Ltd. was formally owned by Mr. Zlochewsky, a citizen of Ukraine and
under Yanukovych was Ukraine’s environmental minister (I bet drilling permits were easy to get!)
However Burisma later rather mysteriously changed ownership to Ihor Kolomoisky, the #2 oligarch in Ukraine, my belief is that Archer/Biden are there as a fig leaf to help raise international investment funds for Burisma.
A fascinating article for you to read at The AntiCorruption Action Center
http://antac.org.ua/en/2012/08/kings-of-ukrainian-gas/ (http://antac.org.ua/en/2012/08/kings-of-ukrainian-gas/)
So don’t worry, Donetsk shale gas isn’t an American project at all, in fact there’s even a chance it could all be a scam
...and thereby controls the Donetsk shale fields, if you follow the trajectory of the company, the next phase is international fund raising, this is where Archer and Biden come in to play via Rosemont Seneca and Rosemont Realty. They’re the fig leaf being placed over the corruption for the sake of investors. They’re just tools and not principles, this is not an American conspiracy, but just business as usual in Ukraine....
...Apart from selling shale gas this week in Europe, the American President also tried to sell a bit of NATO (http://europeansting.com/2014/03/13/eu-parliament-a-catastrophic-crisis-management-by-european-leaders/) membership upgrades. Obama last Wednesday also met NATO top representatives and he stressed that NATO is the most important organisation for the US national security. He also encouraged a more ‘active’ contribution of European member states to NATO. “Everybody’s going to have to make sure they’re engaged and involved, and I think that will help build confidence in some of those border states”, the American President said. Moreover, referring to the Russian threat he added that all NATO members will have utmost protection. However, as the American President puts it very clearly, “freedom isn’t free”, referring to the great need of the EU to ‘chip in’ further.
All in all, Crimea is just a “wicked game of political chess (http://europeansting.com/2014/03/24/crimea-a-wicked-game-of-political-chess-and-a-big-coincidence/)’, but in fact what is behind is pure business. Call it TTIP, NATO contributions or Shale Gas, the message is more than clear; Putin has been a bad boy, let’s isolate him temporarily economically, show to the world that we are too sensitive for freedom and engage further into better economical relations between the EU and the US. And don’t get me wrong; Crimea annexation is preposterous and illegal, we need to support Ukraine as European country out of this mess, but the way the whole thing is being served by Presidents and Commissioners is way too blunt and populist. We do show empathy to Ukraine and how a part of it is stolen by Russia but at the same time we are not stupid to see exactly how the whole issue is being sold to us in order to ‘swallow’ the TTIP pill easier.
GQBlues:
seriously? Your first two links are by the same author. Igor Alexeev is a Russian “journalist”, you know the kind that works at the “Ministry of Truth and Information” in Moscow. EVERY article he’s ever written is anti-shale, anti-Ukrainian and pro-Russian, so any exclamation from him is nothing but Kremlin propaganda. Your third link (though now outdated) simply reinforces what I’ve already mentioned in regards to Burisma Holdings Ltd. being formerly owned by Ukraine’s minister of environment, but this shell company has since been traded to Ihor Kolomoisky, Ukraine’s #2 oligarch, your fourth link sums up with, “clashes between government forces and pro-Russian militias have caused Shell to reconsider, not least because Shell has other lucrative energy deals in Russia”, well, duhhhhhh.....
... your fifth link by an outfit called “europeansting” is an opinion piece by a blogger who likes to write things like, “The US led confrontation of the West with Russia has just generated the first tangible and sizeable losses for Europe.” ...
...Sorry, but if objective journalism was dynamite, your links wouldn’t contain enough of it to blow your nose!..
...In regards to your claim that Burisma does not require outside investment, you need to read their own web site:
http://burisma.com (http://burisma.com)
f“Burisma aims to become the leading independent natural gas producer in Ukraine...” and finally if Mr. Archer is not at Burisma as an outside investment advisor then why is he publishing an article about Burisma in InvestGazeta, #16, 2014 ...
...“Ukrainian market is one of the most talked about markets in the American financial circles. Together with my partners at Rosemont Seneca Partners we studied different investment opportunities in Ukraine. Gas production is the priority. Now is a very good time for structuring assets and building qualitatively new business.
OK???? This is EXACTLY why he's at Burisma....
...P.S. your comment about Kiev downing MH-17 is beneath being absurd...
...I made no comment in regards to Shell’s divestiture of Haynesville Shale in the US, but if you think that this is an indication that shale is worthless, then consider that Shell’s 50% lease rights on 350,000 acres is being sold for $1.2 billion, and of course, as of last year Haynesville Shale produces nearly 10% of all natural gas produced in the USA, both of these facts seem to undermine your thesis that shale, and Ukrainian shale won’t pay and so is not worth investing in...
...I didn’t say he was a crackpot, I said he was a pro-Kremlin Russian journalist who lives in Moscow, and who writes pro-Kremlin articles and these statements are 100% true, which is 100% truer than anything he’s ever written...
...All of the companies you just mentioned have huge investments in Russia and would not like them to be sized by Putin, they’re going to stay out of Ukraine, someone else will get to play providing Russia doesn’t invade Eastern Ukraine some time in the next few weeks...
...If Burisma was just going to hold the leases and auction them off they wouldn’t need Archer and Biden, so they’re going into production, again read their web site, and yes it COULD all be a scam, because it is Ukraine and Ihor Kolomoisky is kind of a shady character...
..Burisma Holdings is owned by a Cypriot holding firm, Brociti Investments Limited, which is controlled Nikolai Zlochevskyi, a former Ukranian government minister, according to Cypriot records. It controls government development licenses in three regions of Ukraine, and sells to industrial customers in the country, according to the company...
...So, have you ever worked in Lubayanka, just curious tovarisch?...
My friend, Maria, who fled to Russia checked in. Her child and mother are in Belorussia as her Mother is of Belorussian descent. The boy's father, Maria's husband is in a village in Russian occupied Luhansk province tending to his father who will not leave Ukraine.I understand your worries and hope they all will remains safe.
My friend Alexey is a software programmer. He emigrated to Germany.
I worry a lot about my family. I worry whether they will be killed like those propaganda and news reports. But until the bombs drop and they live in a foreign country I can do nothing. I believe in God and that God is protecting them. God knows we aren't.
...A much better way would be to compare the Haynesville’s price to other lease prices, I’m not sure of the details, but if the mentioned amount of $1.2 billion for 350,000 acres is the extent of the deal, this works out to $3429 per acre and would be considered a “premium” price, not something I’d expect someone to pay for a “played out” property....
...Doesn’t matter, Kolomoisky and Bogolyubov often partner up, especially if they’re doing what in the West would be considered “quasi” legal activities, helps to muddy the waters if there’s an investigation...
BTW, more evidence that Archer/Biden are fig leaves, can be found here:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/raiders-from-the-east-the-oligarchs-who-won-their-case-but-took-a-battering-8807681.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/raiders-from-the-east-the-oligarchs-who-won-their-case-but-took-a-battering-8807681.html)
...Near the President’s house? I took a bus from Clark’s AFB through there when I was young, crazy place, whatever you do, don’t eat the Isaw! Are you from there?...
...I used to live in Palos Verdes, a few miles from the Mall. I miss the nice weather, but that’s about it, and certainly don’t miss dealing with the traffic on the freeways you paved (good job, by the way!)..
http://en.itar-tass.com/world/744833 (http://en.itar-tass.com/world/744833) Strelkov is dyingBut...
But...I/O,
http://en.itar-tass.com/world/744857 (http://en.itar-tass.com/world/744857) ::)
I spend time between my house in the UK and a flat I have in the Netherlands where I work most of the time.
I was pleased to see the fall of Yanukovych. Yulia's rambling speech on Maidan dismayed me. I am disturbed by the fighting in the east and of course on the shooting down of MH17. This hit the Dutch people very hard. Two of our employees were killed along with their entire families. There has been an outpouring of grief here.
I still follow events in Ukraine closely when I have the time.
Strelkov is dyingHe has probably been liquidated by not-so-friendly friendly-fire.
Strelkov killed a lot of people for offenses as minor as wearing a t shirt not your own. I don't want him dead just stopped. If killing him stops him with the least amount of deaths, no crocodile tears from me.Gee, what a 'humanitarian'. I wonder what religion or group of people you will advocate democratizing and bombiing next. :rolleyes:
Strelkov is dying2018 presidential polls
The more people blame Russia and Putin, the more chance they will get what they want.
The only difference between a Russian and a liar is the spelling.
You're right.. :wallbash: I've amended that post.
You're right.. :wallbash: I've amended that post.
Through our contacts there I warned them that all Russia would ever take was Crimea, and the best the others could hope for was federalization. But people were convinced they would manage to break free from a government they dispise and that has given them zero reason to think otherwise.I even know where your information comes from. Россия-24, ОРТ, НТВ, LifeNews. Cool. :clapping:
As for the idea that Russians orchestrated the conflict, it is laughable when you have the information that I have.
I even know where your information comes from. Россия-24, ОРТ, НТВ, LifeNews. Cool. :clapping:
What are Ukrainians saying about the Western response?To be frank, Ukrainians say the following.
Very well written Stirlitz.
However, keep in mind that there are millions of people around the world, and hundreds here on this forum who very much wish that
.
.
.
USA would stop sticking its nose into other parts of the world.
To be frank, Ukrainians say the following.
For once, we agree with Russian Nazis that Gayropeans are pidarassy.
A real war is unfolding on their continent, and they are either concerned or deeply concerned. It alternates. I guess they can have a two-sided card in the UN or wherever which reads CONCERNED and DEEPLY CONCERNED. Whatever happens, just show the card. Next time flip it to save time and that is all you need to do. Whatever happens, be it 49 people killed in a plane shot down by the Russian army in Lugansk or 298 people in Torez. You are concerned. Or you are deeply concerned. Some people may be seriously concerned. It seems like they will need to take some pills because they have been overconcerned recently. Disgusting. I guess when Russian tanks will be rolling in Paris they will be very deeply and seriously concerned. They supply lethal weapons to the Kurds but they fail to supply body armor and helmets to Ukrainians. They impose sanctions on Iran and Korea who are basically harmless but they fail to do something about the aggressive monster that threatens to start a new world war. So, we are very much disappointed with the West. They seem to repeat the mistakes of the Western politians of the 1930’s while Putin repeats Hitler’s steps one for one as if trying to copy all of him. There is no doubt that Russia will eventually be defeated, just like Germany was in 1945, in a couple of years and Putin will either be tried in the Hague or poison himself, but total destruction of Europe may happen before and millions may die. It is outrageous to watch this happen in the 21st century. The West is stupid and irresponsible. Their message to Putin is: do whatever you please, we will be just concerned and may announce some sanctions that are not going to really harm you. You are welcome to kill, seize lands, steal equipment from factories, kidnap people, whatever you like, it is none of our business.
It is especially disgusting to watch Hungarian and Czech politians to support Putin. Can you have such a short memory as to forget 1956 and 1968 respectively? Is the money paid by the FSB more important than the dignity and memory of your fathers killed by the Russian communists? I cannot fathom that.
USA would stop sticking its nose into other parts of the world.
Stirlitz, what do Ukrainians who have families in Russia say to each other when the war comes up?Many families and friends become enemies. Russia is totally controlled by Putin and he seems to have completely brainwashed the entire population much like it was done in the USSR. It is ludicrous to see that Russians know better what is going on in Ukraine and refer to their television as proof. They tell me something is going on in Odessa and I should watch TV. I tell them that I actually live there and I can simply go outside and see for myself but they know better anyway... They lost everything: logic, common sense, conscience, dignity. All they know is there are fascists in Ukraine, the Russian language is oppressed, the Crimea is Russian, Putin is god, Russia is raising from her knees thanks to Putin... etc... It is absolutely impossible to talk to them: whatever you say, they have the only argument: your government is brainwashing you, you lost your brain, you should watch Russian TV channels. It is funny that what they say applies to themselves actually very well. They are true zombies.
Many families and friends become enemies. Russia is totally controlled by Putin and he seems to have completely brainwashed the entire population much like it was done in the USSR...
...The Russian language is not oppressed in Ukraine. I speak only Russian and I am still alive. But they don’t believe me and tell me to watch Россия-24...
...Many Ukrainians find it very difficult to talk to people like that. So I stopped talking to most of my Russian friends. I even stopped talking to my relatives. That’s the case with so many people.
Many families and friends become enemies. Russia is totally controlled by Putin and he seems to have completely brainwashed the entire population much like it was done in the USSR. It is ludicrous to see that Russians know better what is going on in Ukraine and refer to their television as proof. They tell me something is going on in Odessa and I should watch TV. I tell them that I actually live there and I can simply go outside and see for myself but they know better anyway... They lost everything: logic, common sense, conscience, dignity. All they know is there are fascists in Ukraine, the Russian language is oppressed, the Crimea is Russian, Putin is god, Russia is raising from her knees thanks to Putin... etc... It is absolutely impossible to talk to them: whatever you say, they have the only argument: your government is brainwashing you, you lost your brain, you should watch Russian TV channels. It is funny that what they say applies to themselves actually very well. They are true zombies.
The Russian language is not oppressed in Ukraine. I speak only Russian and I am still alive. But they don’t believe me and tell me to watch Россия-24.
The Crimea is part of Ukraine. Russia confirmed it 3 times: in 1991, 1994 and 1997 in international treaties. Besides, the Crimea has been part of Ukraine since 1954, when the Soviet government realized that having an island attached to the Russian Federation was not convenient, and a Ukrainian peninsula would do better. But a lot of Ukrainian land went to Russia in exchange, in particular southern regions on the border. But they say the Crimea is Russian and refer to the referendum where only a third of the population actually voted.
We have a legitimate government. They say the Ukrainian government is a Junta while in fact it was only the president who fled (of course, to Russia), and the parliament had been elected in 2012, before the events. The real junta is in the Kremlin.
Our army is fighting Russian troops in the East. But they say the Ukrainian troops are... invaders in their own country and the Russian army is not there. It is difficult to answer this outrageous and ridiculous rubbish.
They also claim that it is local militia who are fighting the Ukrainian army with the weapons seized from it while it is the Russian army with their modern heavy arms. If the militia had seized anything they ran out of it months ago!
Many Ukrainians find it very difficult to talk to people like that. So I stopped talking to most of my Russian friends. I even stopped talking to my relatives. That’s the case with so many people.
Unfortunately when most of the folks actually begin to understand the truth it will likely be too late
I support any movements against Moscow. Russian is the prison of nations. As sooner it collapse than better for its population.
I wish the Germans will take this [Kaliningrad] are back. It is the most "red" region in Russia.
There is no other way than collapse. the only question when. The only thing I really dont want happened it is Chinese occupation of Far East.
US should take it first.
To prevent it
I am not consider myself Russian. My grandmother from father's line - Finnish, from mothers line - Ukrainian. I can not say I am Russian. Russians it is the most strange nation ever. They have no links with original Kiev Rus how they love to think and how their historiography teaching them.
Population of this area got deformed mentality after 300 years Mongolian occupation in Medieval time
Honestly I can not stand most of them, I got some Russian friends but they are complete Europeans. I am lucky because it is hard to find such a Russian.
Many families and friends become enemies. ....So I stopped talking to most of my Russian friends. I even stopped talking to my relatives. That’s the case with so many people.
Putin is a clever, powerful man who will do anything to win. I envision this winter he will play his trump card (supply of natural gas to Europe and Ukraine). This will yield a win, albeit it will be short term. I say "short term" because the Russian economy needs Europe far more than Europe needs Russia.
I see no solution for years and an isolated Russia will eventually suffer.
However, keep in mind that there are millions of people around the world, and hundreds here on this forum who very much wish that USA would stop sticking its nose into other parts of the world.It is Europe who must take steps first of all, not the USA. This is what Ukrainians are very unhappy with.
Obviously, such zombie behavior on this matter exists everywhere. Unfortunately when most of the folks actually begin to understand the truth it will likely be too lateIn this case it is very dangerous. History repeats. Russia is moving with great steps to the Nazism. Well I would even admit that Nazism has already conquered Russia, but fortunately, we do not see the death camps yet. The rest is very typical of the Nazism though: oppression of free speech, persecution of those who disagree with Putin, proclaiming one nation as the best nation superior to others, aggression against neighboring nations, utter lies in the mass media... more to come.
How has the war hurt your business?A lot. I lost ALL business in the Crimea. I still has some business in Odessa and the rest of Ukraine but this year I only had 3 (THREE) customers: in February, May and August. Don’t ask me how I survive. Before the war, I had a lot of tourists, I was giving city tours in Odessa, Yalta and Sevastopol besides guiding customers around Ukraine. But after the Russian occupation of the Crimea cruise ships stopped going there. Then, the FSB had a set-up in Odessa on the 2nd of May, and tourists stopped going to Odessa too. So I am very "grateful" to Russia, Putin and pro-Russian idiots. I can tell you that it is not only tourist business that suffers. A lot of people are losing income now. It is pleasant to see some of Putin’s admirers among them (we have a good saying: за что боролись, на то и напоролись — your cause is your trap), but more innocent people suffer too.
I am told that the banking industry has limits on cash withdrawals on machines and businesses and that they take commissions for withdrawals.Not sure because I don’t have a bank account but my wife does and she says nothing has changed for her. That’s private, so for a business this might be different, I don’t know. But I have not heard of any major changes.
You mentioned that Ukraine gave up claims to Southern provinces in Russia. Are you speaking of the Kuban province where many Ukrainians live? Or where you speaking of other provinces as well.I am speaking both of Kuban (where my ancestors come from by the way) and the south of some other regions such as Bryansk, Kursk, Belgorod, etc that border Ukraine. In 1918 they belonged to Ukraine, and up to day the Ukrainian language and customs are common there.
MissAmeno said on another thread, that this war will lead to revolution and civil war in Russia. Do you share her belief?Absolutely. When the war started in February, I soon realized that it was the beginning of the end. The end of the Russian Empire. It gave a serious crack in 1917, then in 1991 it collapsed even more but both times it retained the Siberia and other key regions. Now it is high time to reduce the empire to its original size of the Moscow region (and, probably, rename it back to Muscovy — until the 18th century it had had this name when Peter the 1st invented the word Russia). You don’t probably know that the Russian Federation (the modern name of the Russian Empire) consists of a host of smaller republics, and most of them are not Russian at all:
Also, what are your thoughts on Putin 's many admirers in the West?Putin has many admirers, that’s true, but if I am not mistaken, Hitler did too. However, in this case it is chiefly the financial reasons. The KGB used to fund European communist. The FSB continues this trend by supporting European outcast politicians.
Thank you Stirlitz for writing a clear, yet sad report that gets to the heart of the matter. I would find it difficult to believe that two bordering countries who traditionally have been as close as sisters could sink to this level of hostilityJust 8 months ago I would not imagine anything like that. Believe it or not but I considered Russia my country too. I did not like Ukraine's nationalists and wanted Ukraine to reunite with Russia. Without Putin, though. I did not like Russia's policies but I believed it was all because of Putin, and ordinary people were our brothers.
My response........ it is not just American news . It is news from England, Germany, France....all of Europe. Now independent organizations such as Amnesty International are stating that Russia is the source of the problem. It falls on deaf ears.Russia has been the source of problems in the entire Euroasian continent for centuries. So this is not news.
Will the Russian people ever realize the truth? Even if they do, is there anything they can do to change the politics? As difficult as it is to believe, I guess Putin will be around for a long time.There is always something you can do. We Ukrainians were able to throw off our dictator Yanukovich even though it was not a piece of cake when the police are shooting live ammunition at you and you only have a wooden shield to protect and a club to attack. But Russians are slaves in their nature. They always long to have an emperor to worship. Can you imagine many of them literally deify Stalin? Those who are not such idiots just don’t have the guts to go to the streets. Yes, they will realize the truth, but I am afraid this will happen when the blue and yellow colors will fly over the Kremlin towers or what will remain of them. If Moscow is in ruins and half of the population dead by then I will not be surprised. As I mentioned, I see clear parallels with Nazi Germany of the 1930’s. Hitler invaded Poland in 1939. In 6 years all of Germany was destroyed. This time I don’t think it will take that long. Probably by 2017 it will all be over. But at what cost?
Putin is a clever, powerful man who will do anything to win. I envision this winter he will play his trump card (supply of natural gas to Europe and Ukraine).Putin might be clever in terms of scamming people but he is not truly smart. In fact, he’s an idiot. To harm Russia and himself so efficiently, he does not need any enemies. He already cut gas supply to Ukraine but we are not easy to break. But his Gazprom is suffering heavy losses as a result, so who is clever? All he is going to achieve playing with the gas is that both Ukraine and Europe will hectically look for ways to do without his gas. And they will find solutions. But when they do there will be no way back, and he can stuff his gas pipe into his ass. We call it axing the branch you are sitting on. Not very clever, eh?
I lost ALL business in the Crimea. I still has some business in Odessa and the rest of Ukraine but this year I only had 3 (THREE) customers: in February, May and August. Don’t ask me how I survive. Before the war, I had a lot of tourists, I was giving city tours in Odessa, Yalta and Sevastopol besides guiding customers around Ukraine. But after the Russian occupation of the Crimea cruise ships stopped going there. Then, the FSB had a set-up in Odessa on the 2nd of May, and tourists stopped going to Odessa too. So I am very "grateful" to Russia, Putin and pro-Russian idiots. I can tell you that it is not only tourist business that suffers. A lot of people are losing income now.
Putin might be clever in terms of scamming people but he is not truly smart. In fact, he’s an idiot.
I have never been so drastically mistaken in my life. NEVER!!!
Now, looking back, I realize that I could see it all coming... but I would not listen to anyone who told me that Russia was our enemy. Yet I admit that I just pretended not to notice that many Russians were hostile to Ukraine and Ukrainians, thinking that it was individual people, not the entire country. It’s classic: we watched them to attack Georgia and it did not dawn on us that we would be the next.
I have never been so drastically mistaken in my life. NEVER!!!
Just 8 months ago I would not imagine anything like that. Believe it or not but I considered Russia my country too. I did not like Ukraine's nationalists and wanted Ukraine to reunite with Russia. Without Putin, though. I did not like Russia's policies but I believed it was all because of Putin, and ordinary people were our brothers.
I have never been so drastically mistaken in my life. NEVER!!!
Now, looking back, I realize that I could see it all coming... but I would not listen to anyone who told me that Russia was our enemy. Yet I admit that I just pretended not to notice that many Russians were hostile to Ukraine and Ukrainians, thinking that it was individual people, not the entire country. It’s classic: we watched them to attack Georgia and it did not dawn on us that we would be the next.
Stirlitz, you made my day, thank you
There was a very good discussion on Faheed Zakaria GPS this morning. Many of the panel members agree that Russia cares most..supplying weapons to Ukraine is a fool's errand and will lead to many more dead bodies and Russia will still take what it wants. I think the west would like to keep stirring things up since to this point it has gone Russia's way...our strategists probably view the dead Ukrainians as an acceptable price to put a thorn in Russia's side.
What does your phrase "Russia cares most" mean? "Russia cares" is an oxymoron.
I watched GPS today and I have a somewhat different take. I recall nothing from the panelists about the West "stirring things up." They did talk about the intractability of Russia, noting Russia's willingness to commit its own troops to the separatist cause and take casualties. The Pulitizer-prize winning journalist Anne Applebaum commented that Russia has essentially won the conflict, forcing Ukraine to accept during the ceasefire the presence of Russian backed separatists within its territory. Although a ceasefire should be used to negotiate a settlement, I got the sense that everyone expected Russia to push even harder and take more of Ukraine's sovereign territory.
The Pulitizer-prize winning journalist Anne Applebaumis an idiot. She has been reliably wrong on all issues relating Euromaidan since its inception. This is a frightening truth for all those familiar with her books and her ties to the Polish government.
The colors of Ukraine will fly over the Kremlin.
In the long run, it will take China, USA and Western Europe to bring Russia to heel. Don't know when that might happen, but several years away at best.
And it will come economically, not militarily
The colors of Ukraine will fly over the Kremlin:trainwreck:
Come on now; this is ridiculous thinking or wishing.
Ukraine is going to lose big time in the short run.
In the long run, it will take China, USA and Western Europe to bring Russia to heel. Don't know when that might happen, but several years away at best.
And it will come economically, not militarily, except that Chinese troops will probably occupy all of current Russia at least up to Ural mountains.
Cares about the outcome more than any western country does.
The stirring up comment was my own take.
7. USA
In the US, concern about Russia is minimal compared with our concern about ISIS. CNN gives more air time to Kate's second pregnancy than to Ukraine.
You are entitled to express your opinion even though I consider it wrong because 1) you have no proof and 2) there is no economic incentive for the West (especially the US) to intervene. In other words, you are accusing the West of murder yet you have neither found the weapon nor established the motive. In fact, your circumstantial evidence is weak hearsay.
I suggest that you find a new banner for these discussions other than no more US intervention. If you have not noticed, our President has NO BALLS AT ALL except in petty politics with the Republicans. Even then, he does not have the balls to face an issue and instead uses his interpretation of executive privilege to circumvent public debate.
Have a good day!
The colors of Ukraine will fly over the Kremlin.
Actually, Russia being weak is incentive for the US. The US has done what it could to make Russia weaker. Look at the Afghan war as an example. That is hardly hearsay. To think there can only be economic reasons and not political ones is very ignorant.
Statement of the obvious.
Descending order, IMO, of who cares the most:
1. Ukraine
(huge, huge gap between No. 1 and No. 2)
2. Russia
3. Baltic States
4. Other CCCP nations
5. Eastern Europe - except Hungary
6. Western Europe - except Shadow and Manny
(large gap between No. 6 and No. 7)
7. USA...
Actually, Russia being weak is incentive for the US.
The US has done what it could to make Russia weaker. Look at the Afghan war as an example.
To think there can only be economic reasons and not political ones is very ignorant.
Untrue. You voted for Romney. Talks are generated now that he was right all along during his campaign that the BIGGEST US geopolitical foe, and one the US should really be very concerned about is/was Russia.
We should have never intervene in Ukraine's internal affairs despite the temptation of NATO's establishment in that country.
Russian havoc will occur far from our shores, other than the potential for cyber attacks.
I repeat what I wrote to Fathertime:
"You are entitled to express your opinion even though I consider it wrong because 1) you have no proof and 2) there is no economic incentive for the West (especially the US) to intervene. In other words, you are accusing the West of murder yet you have neither found the weapon nor established the motive. In fact, your circumstantial evidence is weak hearsay. ..
...I suggest that you find a new banner for these discussions other than no more US intervention....
... If you have not noticed, our President has NO BALLS AT ALL except in petty politics with the Republicans. Even then, he does not have the balls to face an issue and instead uses his interpretation of executive privilege to circumvent public debate...
...LFU insists that we have a political motive to make Russia weak. If so, why did we give Russia a free pass when it invaded Georgia? You should recall that we did nothing, and even hit the "reset" button. And there was Obama making promises in an open mike to do more for Russia once he was re-elected.
For sure in the past, long before Uncle Ronnie declared the CCCP as the "Evil Empire." In the post-CCCP era, I would have thought that the US wanted a stronger and more open and democratic Russia. Now that Putin is showing his true colors, the relationship could become more and more adversarial.
The CIA indeed secretly spent $2-4 billion in the 1980s funding the Afghan mujahedin's fight against the Soviets. Charlie Wilson's War is an excellent read explaining how one congressman, a CIA mid-level agent and a Texas socialite were instrumental in defeating the Soviets by sending advanced weapons to the freedom fighters.
Remember, these were Cold War days and the Soviets were our largest nemesis. Plus, the hawks in Congress wanted some revenge for what the Soviets did to America in supporting Ho Chi Minh.
The Congressional funding was very small, starting at $5 million/yr and eventually reaching $500 million/yr. The Soviets were spending substantially more (cost of helicopter vs. cost of stinger missile, plus the Mujahedin fought for free). The Soviet defeat in Afghanistan together with Uncle Ronnie's spending on Star Wars, etc. accelerated the collapse of Soviet empire.
Just think, if America had not done that, the Soviet system perhaps would still be in place and you never would have met all those Slavic women.
Perhaps I'm a bit slow on the uptake but, you'd need to expand on that a bit for me as I'm not following you. The Afghan invasion was a result of the Taliban's harboring of OBL and the Al Queda training camps. There wasn't anything economical about it unless you count the increased Poppy Trade. IIRC
As for the first part. Why in your opinion would the West or the U.S. in general need Russia to be or appear weaker? The U.S. gubmint itself is knowingly destroying the dollar and dismantling the military. Why would there be any emphasis on Russian strength considering what they are doing to themselves? What would it matter?
My take is, it doesn't and the U.S. isn't involved or plying anything to Russia. Putin is making his moves in order to build perception of his/Russia's strength because of what the U.S. is doing. Don't you think it possible that any U.S. involvement is minimal and NOT a result of U.S. intervention?
FP, as Gator mentioned, I was referring to the Soviet Afghan war that was prompted by US involvement.
Russia is still a political threat to US interests. I think that is a good thing. We need checks and balances in place. Putin was looking rather good being able to deal with Syria and making Obama look, well, like Obama. :P
Not soon after, Putin is now looking rather sad, on the international front. Interesting timing nevertheless.
Of course this is Putin's own doing, but that doesn't mean there wasn't a little prodding from the western countries. Sort of like how the US prodded the Soviets into a war. As to how much the west was involved, it's all speculation, but I do think they played a bigger role than most here believe.
IMO, I would say one of the biggest threat to the US is replacing the dollar as the world currency. Something Russia has been very vocal about and no doubt will continue to be.
Many families and friends become enemies. Russia is totally controlled by Putin and he seems to have completely brainwashed the entire population much like it was done in the USSR. It is ludicrous to see that Russians know better what is going on in Ukraine and refer to their television as proof. They tell me something is going on in Odessa and I should watch TV. I tell them that I actually live there and I can simply go outside and see for myself but they know better anyway... They lost everything: logic, common sense, conscience, dignity. All they know is there are fascists in Ukraine, the Russian language is oppressed, the Crimea is Russian, Putin is god, Russia is raising from her knees thanks to Putin... etc... It is absolutely impossible to talk to them: whatever you say, they have the only argument: your government is brainwashing you, you lost your brain, you should watch Russian TV channels. It is funny that what they say applies to themselves actually very well. They are true zombies.
The Russian language is not oppressed in Ukraine. I speak only Russian and I am still alive. But they don’t believe me and tell me to watch Россия-24.
The Crimea is part of Ukraine. Russia confirmed it 3 times: in 1991, 1994 and 1997 in international treaties. Besides, the Crimea has been part of Ukraine since 1954, when the Soviet government realized that having an island attached to the Russian Federation was not convenient, and a Ukrainian peninsula would do better. But a lot of Ukrainian land went to Russia in exchange, in particular southern regions on the border. But they say the Crimea is Russian and refer to the referendum where only a third of the population actually voted.
We have a legitimate government. They say the Ukrainian government is a Junta while in fact it was only the president who fled (of course, to Russia), and the parliament had been elected in 2012, before the events. The real junta is in the Kremlin.
Our army is fighting Russian troops in the East. But they say the Ukrainian troops are... invaders in their own country and the Russian army is not there. It is difficult to answer this outrageous and ridiculous rubbish.
They also claim that it is local militia who are fighting the Ukrainian army with the weapons seized from it while it is the Russian army with their modern heavy arms. If the militia had seized anything they ran out of it months ago!
Many Ukrainians find it very difficult to talk to people like that. So I stopped talking to most of my Russian friends. I even stopped talking to my relatives. That’s the case with so many people.
There was a very good discussion on Faheed Zakaria GPS this morning. Many of the panel members agree that Russia cares most..supplying weapons to Ukraine is a fool's errand and will lead to many more dead bodies and Russia will still take what it wants. I think the west would like to keep stirring things up since to this point it has gone Russia's way...our strategists probably view the dead Ukrainians as an acceptable price to put a thorn in Russia's side.
Fathertime!
It is nice that there's a lot of beautiful women for you all BUT the country of Afghanistan is a gawd awful place now that WE 'secretly spent' billions to arm the afghans...they would have been better off under Soviet rule. Similarly in Ukraine we can start armong them folks too, and create another Afghanistan. ..since the reality is US strategists would find that to be a better outcome then it being Russian influenced. As mich as our representatives pretend, they don't actually care one iota about Nikoli Q. Ukrainian and those buying into anything else are mistaken
Fathertime!
When my inlaws would tell them of events happening a few minutes away, these relatives would accuse them of lying because that was NOT what they saw on Russian TV.We have a joke here.
If Putin wants Ukraine, he can try. But I would rather die than see Ukraine become part of Russia. I am ready to fight.It is Europe who must take steps first of all, not the USA. This is what Ukrainians are very unhappy with.In this case it is very dangerous. History repeats. Russia is moving with great steps to the Nazism. Well I would even admit that Nazism has already conquered Russia, but fortunately, we do not see the death camps yet. The rest is very typical of the Nazism though: oppression of free speech, persecution of those who disagree with Putin, proclaiming one nation as the best nation superior to others, aggression against neighboring nations, utter lies in the mass media... more to come.A lot. I lost ALL business in the Crimea. I still has some business in Odessa and the rest of Ukraine but this year I only had 3 (THREE) customers: in February, May and August. Don’t ask me how I survive. Before the war, I had a lot of tourists, I was giving city tours in Odessa, Yalta and Sevastopol besides guiding customers around Ukraine. But after the Russian occupation of the Crimea cruise ships stopped going there. Then, the FSB had a set-up in Odessa on the 2nd of May, and tourists stopped going to Odessa too.
www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/09/to-understand-putin-read-orwell-110551.html (http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/09/to-understand-putin-read-orwell-110551.html)
Putin and a dozen other countries have been trying to replace the dollar as the world reserve for years. It will never happen. Removing the U.S. from the worlds economy is a certain collapse for the world economy. A mere shart of the U.S. economy fills the world's britches with shit. The only thing that can replace it, and that is by design btw, is a one world currency. Which no doubt is on the way and even then, the U.S. economy will be the driver.
Obama isn't that clever
Wow, I have heard the same, almost verbatim, from my wife relating to her relatives living in Russia.
When my inlaws would tell them of events happening a few minutes away, these relatives would accuse them of lying because that was NOT what they saw on Russian TV.
Sad indeed.
.....BUT the country of Afghanistan is a gawd awful place now that WE 'secretly spent' billions to arm the afghans...
.......they would have been better off under Soviet rule.
When my inlaws would tell them of events happening a few minutes away, these relatives would accuse them of lying because that was NOT what they saw on Russian TV.
We made it gawd awful? I was there briefly in 1977 before the Soviet military was invited by the pro-Soviet government. Once in Afghanistan I decided I did not need to travel any more because I had reached the end of the world.
I will not call you a moron, because I know you are not stupid. Yet this post shows how much you love to shoot from the hip.
Please research the number of countries who were under the CCCP thumb or had close political-economic-military ties with the CCCP. Now compare how far those countries have progressed after the Soviets departed vs. how they progressed while receiving Soviet aid and assistance. I will wait for your stellar examples of the advantages of having close ties with the Soviets.
How can this be? Botheius said that all negotiations were recorded and transcribed. How could there be 'secret meetings'? Looks like she was wrong, AGAIN!
In addition to other generalities about Russians, it can be added that they are fools as demonstrated by the above.
No, you are misrepresenting what I posted, again. We were discussing the Minsk meeting, in particular. I stated that the negotiations at the Minsk meeting were recorded (see link). But, I'm not surprised. Initially, I ascribed your misrepresentations to lack of character. Now I realize you just don't have the grey power to understand what is going on (and I mean that with the greatest respect).
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17979.msg375560#msg375560 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17979.msg375560#msg375560)
Incidentally, even if there were secret meetings between Merkel and Putin, the discussions re those meetings also are recorded for posterity. For example, the Vatican, and particularly Pope John Paull II, played a critical role in hastening the demise of the USSR. There were numerous secret letters, and conversations, between the Vatican, the UK, and the US. None of that was known at the time, but the contents of some correspondence (with a notation others remained top secret) were released after Pope John Paul's death. But, in these cases, what will form the record are likely notes, either of the principals or aides, rather than a transcription of formal negotiations.
Please post all those posts where I have been proven wrong.
As for neo Nazis, well, of course, since you know next to nothing of Ukraine, you would believe the propaganda that the country is teeming with neo Nazis. It isn't. Svoboda is a fascist party. Pravyi Sekhtor (whose members form the Azov Battalion) is not.
[/size]No, you are misrepresenting what I posted, again. We were discussing the Minsk meeting, in particular. I stated that the negotiations at the Minsk meeting were recorded (see link). But, I'm not surprised. Initially, I ascribed your misrepresentations to lack of character. Now I realize you just don't have the grey power to understand what is going on (and I mean that with the greatest respect).[size=78%][/color]
I feel they need to negotiate the most reasonably decent deal they can get, as it is the best they can do, given the circumstances...unless the world would like another Afghanistan-like country. And you know what? More and more people (outside of this website) and the trembling Russiaphobes are agreeing with what I've been saying all along. :clapping:
You are delusional. Please read the insightful posts by Stirlitz to understand what is at stake.
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17913.msg375759#msg375759 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17913.msg375759#msg375759)
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17913.msg375731#msg375731 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17913.msg375731#msg375731)
Based on your position Fathertime, it is clear to me that you would have negotiated with the Japanese after Pearl Harbor, knowing that defeating the Japanese would have cost hundreds of thousands of American lives.
Or you would suggest that Stalin should have capitulated to the Nazis.
Most men are not such cowards, especially when it is their country.
Do you believe that Putin planned the Odessa Massacre?Yes I do. He may not have done this personally but it was clearly an FSB job. It was an obvious set-up. First pro-Russian thugs unexpectedly and unprovokedly attack a peaceful demonstration in the city center killing a few people with Kalashnikov rifles and injuring many others with clubs and missiles. All of Odessa is outraged and raises to crush them. The police is not doing anything. But the Odessites manage to defeat the Russians in the city center. Then people head for the separatist camp in a big square next to the train station (this place had been a problem for Odessa for two months, its inhabitants were notorious for being drunk and aggressive), but instead of dispersing and fleeing, the separatists entrench in the building in the center of the square and continue shooting at the advancing infuriated Ukrainians adding to their fury. Originally people just wanted to remove the camp from the square but they had to storm the building. It is a fact that the Russian leaders persuaded ordinary separatists to lock in the building and then went to the roof where they were safe. I guess if they had just told everybody to flee, there would have been much fewer casualties. But they did not only shoot from the roof but also threw Molotov coctails. It is hard to say whose coctail started the fire but playing with the fire is dangerous and those who live in a glass home should not throw stones, eh? It is also a mystery why so many people died in the building which did not burn to ashes, had long and wide corridors and stairs. There are theories that there were FSB officers inside who put some people to sleep using chloroform or something else, and the people simply died of carbon dioxide. The Nord-Ost tradegy comes to mind where many people also died of some gas. But it is just a theory. I personally saw a lot of gas mask filters in the destroyed camp in the square. Something is just wrong there, and an old saying suggests to see who profits. Putin had long claimed that Russians were oppressed in Ukraine, so this story fits him perfectly.
In addition to other generalities about Russians, it can be added that they are fools as demonstrated by the above.I have also come to this conclusion. The more I hear what ordinary Russians say about it, the more I am persuaded that idiocy is a wide-spread disease among them. It could have been games before the end of August but now it is clear that Russia is waging a war against Ukraine. It does not matter if the war was not proclaimed. Hitler did not declare a war on the USSR in 1941 either. It is absolutely astonishing to see people who refuse to acknowledge the obvious but gladly believe any idiotic statement providing they hear it from Russian television.
1) Did you know there were so many experts about your country and they have never even visited?
2) Is the fifth column still active?
3) views on the cease fire?
In addition to other generalities about Russians, it can be added that they are fools as demonstrated by the above.
Any normal people would certainly believe what a good relative tells them about what is happening in the relative's local area.
I was once in a city where a major riot occurred. It was serious, but still contained within a relatively small area. Several friends called me to express concern because the TV channels had the entire city burning and everyone in danger. They urged me to leave as soon as possible.
But my friend's minds were quickly eased when I assured them this was not the case.
Also, it is not like the Russian people don't know from past experience that they have been lied to over and over again by news organs.
Since they continue to believe, it can only be concluded it is a nation of fools.
Sugar coat it all you want to and claim your friends and relatives are exceptions; but then you are just fooling yourselves.
I will not call you a moron, because I know you are not stupid. Yet this post shows how much you love to shoot from the hip.
You are delusional.
Most men are not such cowards, especially when it is their country.
It doesn't matter what you'prefer' there is nothing brave about sending other people's children to die. ..you need to learn when to fold a bad hand and wait for the reshuffle because our kids and weapons aren't going into another foreign conflict despite what old chuckenhawks demand.
So, what will it be?
I prefer coward based on his stripes.
It doesn't matter what you'prefer' there is nothing brave about sending other people's children to die. ..you need to learn when to fold a bad hand and wait for the reshuffle because our kids and weapons aren't going into another foreign conflict despite what old chuckenhawks demand.
Ukrainians can fight if they think that is best..the USA escalating would be a bad choice for everybody despite your impotent moanings.
Fathertime!
Ukrainians can fight if they think that is best..
It doesn't matter what you'prefer' there is nothing brave about sending other people's children to die. ..you need to learn when to fold a bad hand and wait for the reshuffle because our kids and weapons aren't going into another foreign conflict despite what old chuckenhawks demand.
Ukrainians can fight if they think that is best..the USA escalating would be a bad choice for everybody despite your impotent moanings.
Fathertime!
It doesn't matter what you'prefer' there is nothing brave about sending other people's children to die. ..you need to learn when to fold a bad hand and wait for the reshuffle because our kids and weapons aren't going into another foreign conflict despite what old chuckenhawks demand.
Ukrainians can fight if they think that is best..the USA escalating would be a bad choice for everybody despite your impotent moanings.
Fathertime!
While I agree that if the USA were to send ground troops it would escalate into WWIII, what good reason is there for the USA to not help sufficiently arm the Ukrainians so that they can defend their homeland?
I do not expect anybody to engage in this war on our side and I do not think it is needed. We have enough human resources. There are so far more volunteers than the army can take.
What we lack is funds, weapons, equipment, medicines, etc. The USA supplied it to Afghanistan on a large scale, so why not do it again with Ukraine.
Also, we need real sanctions against Russia from the USA as well as pressure on European sissies.
We need sanctions lifted from Iran so that oil can get cheap, really cheap.
That will kill Russia better than any weapons. American military advisors would be helpful too but not troops.
However, American troops may be needed later if the above is not implemented. History is repeating, Russia is in the German 1939 now, so if the USA does not want to be in its 1944 in a few years to save the European ass once again, they ought to be a little more aggressive with sanctions and help to Ukraine.
Because it might trigger a new 'cold war' ... oh ... that cat is already out of the bag, lol.
Ukraine faces a stark choice, occupation, dismemberment of the country and perpetual control over its affairs by Moscow or to fight back. Appeasement and cowardice now will resign Ukraine to the dustbin of history, their backs are to the wall and they have no option but to fight back and to garner as much international support for their cause as possible.
(http://www.kaneconsulting.biz/wp-content/uploads/migrated/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/debbie-downer.jpg)
Ukraine can win
do you get your antisemitic tracks from your pro-Russia sources or your Ron Paul sources?
Anyway, its real rich to here you wax Philippic when you quote "Real Jew News."
Tell me I am lying
Listen <expletive>, it is people like you that increase the chances of war with your appeasement bullshevism. I strongly suggest you take one or two classes in the history of western civilization so you understand what appeasing dictators gave us.
Two words, needless bloodshed.
There is a huge difference between being civilized and being a <expletive> coward.
I WILL tell you that you are lying. I think it is funny that you are trying so desperately hard to pin a label on me. I've never been to a 'real jew news' website and have NEVER quoted text that I'm aware of. A picture pulled from yahoo images that I've come to see had it written in small writing yes, that wasn't easily seen by me, and so? I do like the desperate attempt though but it will go nowhere.
Fathertime!
I do not expect anybody to engage in this war on our side and I do not think it is needed. We have enough human resources. There are so far more volunteers than the army can take. I am thinking to join a volunteer batallion myself. So far neither the military enlistment office nor the national guards were eager to let me join because of my age and lack of military experience, but I should be able to find a way if I try hard (when there is a will, there is a way). More and more people gradually change their attitude from being pro-Russian to neutral, then pro-Ukrainian and finally to ready to fight and even eager to fight. I have been ready to fight since March, now I am shifting to eager. I guess as the war unfolds there will be too many of us for the Russians to counter.
What we lack is funds, weapons, equipment, medicines, etc. The USA supplied it to Afghanistan on a large scale, so why not do it again with Ukraine. Also, we need real sanctions against Russia from the USA as well as pressure on European sissies. We need sanctions lifted from Iran so that oil can get cheap, really cheap. That will kill Russia better than any weapons. American military advisors would be helpful too but not troops. However, American troops may be needed later if the above is not implemented. History is repeating, Russia is in the German 1939 now, so if the USA does not want to be in its 1944 in a few years to save the European ass once again, they ought to be a little more aggressive with sanctions and help to Ukraine.
I do not expect anybody to engage in this war on our side and I do not think it is needed. We have enough human resources. There are so far more volunteers than the army can take. I am thinking to join a volunteer batallion myself. So far neither the military enlistment office nor the national guards were eager to let me join because of my age and lack of military experience, but I should be able to find a way if I try hard (when there is a will, there is a way). More and more people gradually change their attitude from being pro-Russian to neutral, then pro-Ukrainian and finally to ready to fight and even eager to fight. I have been ready to fight since March, now I am shifting to eager. I guess as the war unfolds there will be too many of us for the Russians to counter.
What we lack is funds, weapons, equipment, medicines, etc. The USA supplied it to Afghanistan on a large scale, so why not do it again with Ukraine. Also, we need real sanctions against Russia from the USA as well as pressure on European sissies. We need sanctions lifted from Iran so that oil can get cheap, really cheap. That will kill Russia better than any weapons. American military advisors would be helpful too but not troops. However, American troops may be needed later if the above is not implemented. History is repeating, Russia is in the German 1939 now, so if the USA does not want to be in its 1944 in a few years to save the European ass once again, they ought to be a little more aggressive with sanctions and help to Ukraine.
Because it might trigger a new 'cold war' ... oh ... that cat is already out of the bag, lol.
Ukraine faces a stark choice, occupation, dismemberment of the country and perpetual control over its affairs by Moscow or to fight back. Appeasement and cowardice now will resign Ukraine to the dustbin of history, their backs are to the wall and they have no option but to fight back and to garner as much international support for their cause as possible.
If the West does not provide conventional weapons to Ukraine, we can revert to nuclear weapons. After all, Britain and America failed to do anything about the Crimea although Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons in exchange for their pledge to respect Ukraine's territorial integrity per 1994 treaty. Russia aims at extermination of Ukraine, so if we are not able to push them back we must have a chance to make it too dear for them. But I still believe that it is not a good solution, so substantial help to Ukraine is a better option for everybody. I cannot fathom why the Western leaders are so stubborn and stupid. Even if we don’t have time to develop nuclear bombs, we can detonate nuclear power plants. I guess Europe still remembers Chernobyl.
Wow. Just wow. :(
Right, wrong or indifferent that is a developed or developing mindset in Ukraine. Desperation perhaps. The same entities that agreed to help Ukraine if they gave up the developed weapons, aren't.
The signers only said they would not attack Ukraine and would come to the aid of Ukraine if Ukraine were attacked with nuclear weapons.I know. But Russia's failure to respect the agreement compromises the other signatories. If it had been separate deals with the USA and Ukraine, the UK and Ukraine, France and Ukraine and Russia and Ukraine, that's one thing. But in this deal it is Ukraine that gave up nuclear weapons, and all the other states who wanted to profit as a result. One of them turned out to be a crook who signed the agreement but did not mean to stick to it. What about the others? If they want to show they are different, they should put pressure on Russia and do their best to enforce the agreement. Otherwise it looks like they just framed Ukraine. It was clear from the beginning that the only party that might be interested in Ukraine's territory was Russia. You are right about the obligation but it is technical. For the general public the situation looks like the USA and the UK failed or framed Ukraine. So when a third world country develops nuclear weapons I am sure that their leaders will tell their people: look at Ukraine that gave up nuclear weapons, and the US said this was in exchange for territorial guarantees, so we need the weapons because they are all lying and we can only rely on ourselves.
So only Russia has violated the agreement.
But there is also clearly no signed obligation for USA to help Ukraine under the current non nuclear invasion.
The signers only said they would not attack Ukraine and would come to the aid of Ukraine if Ukraine were attacked with nuclear weapons.
So only Russia has violated the agreement.
I wish USA and other signers would help Ukraine more, but they have no obligation to do so under the signed agreement when Ukraine is under attack by non nuclear means.
Looking back, it is clear that Ukraine made a bad deal.
But at the time, the cost of maintaining the nuclear weapons would have been a huge burden on the Ukrainian budget; and the USA gave substantial money to Ukraine at the time.
The more ideal agreement for Ukraine would have been that USA and other signers would come to the aid of Ukraine if they were attacked 'by any method or means.' Don't know why Ukraine didn't push for that.
Ukraine's other huge mistake was not joining NATO at the earliest opportunity. But I am not sure that NATO would have taken Ukraine earlier and maybe not even now.
I clearly think all countries of the world have a moral obligation to help Ukraine, and many countries of the world will be in a much worse situation themselves within some time if they do not stop Russia now.
But there is also clearly no signed obligation for USA to help Ukraine under the current non nuclear invasion.
The current situation of unrest in many parts of the world have dealt Putin and the Russian low-life peoples a wonderful hand with which to destroy Ukraine. And they are intent on doing it.
And both Kiev and Moscow were also bound by the 1997 Friendship Treaty, which was to expire in 2009 but had since been extended for an additional 10 years back in 2008 by then-president Viktor Yuschenko.What's more important, both signatories pledged to respect their existing borders per that treaty. Not to mention the 1991 agreement where the same was stipulated.
The threat of banning the Russian languageWhat are you talking about? Did you watch Russian TV recently?
What's more important, both signatories pledged to respect their existing borders per that treaty. Not to mention the 1991 agreement where the same was stipulated.
So Russia broke as many as three agreements by occupying the Crimea.
...
So Russia broke as many as three agreements by occupying the Crimea. What are you talking about? Did you watch Russian TV recently?
...I always said before and I repeat this again now that the Verkhovna rada’s decision to ban Russian as a regional language was a mistake. I stressed many times during my presidential campaign that this law would never get my approval. I hope that “never again in the history of Ukraine will the issue of language or culture endanger national unity”
The V. Rada apparently banned it as a regional languageThat's a lie. They did not ban it and had no plans like that whatsoever.
The V. Rada apparently banned it as a regional language. and nyet, I don't watch or read Russian media. I read US State Dept. Press Briefings and OSCE Daily Updates for events in this conflict.
the toppling of lenin's statues
Is a good thing....
...Do you believe the Choctaw would revere statues of Andrew Jackson?...
Well, then you're saying the ensuing conflict and casualties it bore was not only forthcoming and expected, but a positive, yes?
The point is, just as it was during the dark days of America's tribal natives legacy during that time, there were plenty of *treaties* that were broken, stomped on and eagerly disregarded by both sides.
Nobody went to war over a toppled statue of Lenin.
...Please provide examples of the treaties Ukraine has broken. Your examples were not applicable, as minority rights were not oppressed in Ukraine.
No, Russian was never banned as a regional language. Russian language, as with all minority languages in Ukraine, is protected by Ukraine's constitution. That has been part of Ukraine's constitution since it was enacted in 1996. The Rada cannot pass laws contrary to Ukraine's constitution....
Well, it couldn't until Yanukovych changed the constitution to give himself the power to fix the supreme court with his handpickedcroniesappointees...
...What the Rada did was pass a law which recognized Ukrainian as the sole state language of Ukraine, meaning all laws would be printed in Ukrainian, the currency would be printed in Ukraine, the language of the Rada would be Ukrainian. In other words, the status quo...
...Russian did not have state language status when the 2014 law was introduced. However, Yanukovych, whose Ukrainian sucks, wanted to grant official language status to Russian. That is what the law attempted to address....
...The law never banned the use of Russian, Russian language schools, media, etc. It was vetoed by the president, so it was never enacted....
...Ukraine did not break the 1997 treaty....
... Russia, however, did violate numerous treaties, as in most, it professed to respect Ukraine's borders....
...The Rada did not ban communist ideals,...
...though the term in and of itself is an oxymoron....
Ukrainians did.
I just did. See above. Just because it doesn't support your POV doesn't mean it isn't factual or applicable.
ethnic, cultural, linguistic, and religious originality of national minorities on their territory and the creation of "conditions for the encouragement of that originality.That is inaccurate. Minority rights are not only protected in Ukraine, they are enshrined in its constitution. Heck, even the Rada members who voted to confirm Ukrainian as the state's sole language (which, legally at the time, it was) speak Russian in their daily lives as much, often, more, than they do Ukrainian.
LMAO! Didn't we go over this more than a few times before? As for banning the Russian language, argue with Ukraine's president then because according to him, they in fact did.
Oh dear me...here we go again. Ukraine's troubles didn't start and stop with Yanukovich. You might as well blame Bush too while you're at it. Obama still does...LOL.
Which, when all is said and done, is just as damning for non-Ukrainian speaking ethnic Russians, right? You can sugar coat it as much as you want, the targeted intent was to suppress Ukraine's minority.
You mean *REGIONAL*, correct? Don't leave out such a crucial piece of information Counselor.
LOL. What do you think the implication will be if a law was pass through Congress forbidding Spanish language in any form, ebonics/jive, etc...despite the POTUS eventually vetoing it?
LOL. What do you think the implication will be if a law was pass through Congress forbidding Spanish language in any form, ebonics/jive, etc...despite the POTUS eventually vetoing it?
The irony here is that the USA doesn't even have ONE official language, so members of your Congress could all speak Russian, Tutsi, Tagalog or Maori all the time if they so wished. Who cares if anyone else understands them?
About 14% (45 million out of 318 million) of US residents actually speak Spanish - is that enough for your lawgivers to grant it official language status (that's assuming that they bothered to make English the first official language)?
For the general public the situation looks like the USA and the UK failed or framed Ukraine. So when a third world country develops nuclear weapons I am sure that their leaders will tell their people: look at Ukraine that gave up nuclear weapons, and the US said this was in exchange for territorial guarantees, so we need the weapons because they are all lying and we can only rely on ourselves.
The West's stance regarding the conflict between Russia and Ukraine has even greater implications. Namely, any country that does not now have nuclear weapons is prompted to obtain them as a defensive deterrent if one of its neighbors has nukes.
The West's stance regarding the conflict between Russia and Ukraine has even greater implications. Namely, any country that does not now have nuclear weapons is prompted to obtain them as a defensive deterrent if one of its neighbors has nukes.
The world going MAD as in Mutual Assured Destruction
So only Russia has violated the agreement.
That's a lie. They did not ban it and had no plans like that whatsoever.
This is what happened. In 2012 they adopted a law that envisaged more rights for communities to use a local language. It was not only Russian. It could be Hungarian or Romanian. In February there was an ATTEMPT to cancel that law. The attempt failed: Turchinov quickly vetoed it. To call it an attempt to ban the Russian language is incorrect. I am not sure about the quote of Poroshenko, it might be bad translation or he said something stupid, but this does not influence what actually happened.
You can laugh all you want, but the Rada did not ban the Russian language. No matter how many times you state otherwise, it won't make it a fact.
Technically, what occurred was the law introduced in 2012, "On the Principles of State Language Policy", which would have given the Russian language regional language status in 13 administrative territories in Ukraine, was declared void. The effect of that was that on the state level, Ukrainian remained the language of Ukraine....
...The decision of the Verkhovna Rada (Parliament) of Ukraine on deprivation the Russian language regional status, adopted in February at the first meeting after the flight of Viktor Yanukovych, was a mistake. The decision was not approved by the acting President Turchynov, but the intention of the legislators caused a huge resonance. "I have always said and I repeat today that the Verkhovna Rada decision on deprivation the Russian language regional status was a mistake. During my election campaign I have repeatedly emphasized that never such a law will not get my approval. I hope that never in the history of Ukraine the issue of language or culture will not endanger the very national unity".
One thing that has become clearer through this conflict is that the USA is not likely to intervene militarily if the country they are opposing is armed with Nukes,
It's Obama that is showing weakness. The USA traditionally has confronted nuclear armed USSR everywhere in the world supporting groups and nations with weapons to use against them. Bad boys need to be put in their place otherwise things get out of hand.
Angela Merkel is calling for sanctions immediately. The peace plans haven't made any progress. Did anybody expect anything different? Putin is just stalling. I expect Putin to come up with some weird retaliation in addition to increased violence.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/10/germany-sanctions-russia_n_5796560.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/10/germany-sanctions-russia_n_5796560.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592)
No, toppled statues were not the reason for the conflict, which was instigated by the Russian FSB and their paid proxies.
The cacophony of commentaries and statements to recent Ukrainian developments misses the point that the first and foremost contribution to the current dramatic situation there is the obvious political, economic and social failure of Ukraine as an independent state.
....
A large part of the European political mainstream (although much less in Germany and even less in the south of the EU) tries, together with the United States, to turn Russia into a “bogey man” in the East, something that is in the American strategic interest. Ukraine is only a tool in that respect.
Maybe you and Strlitz need to read other medium than just KyivPost.Maybe you need to learn to read? I have explained before what happened. I did not read it in KyivPost. Please re-read my post.
...Former Czech president Vaclav Klaus wrote an extensive essay where he tried to expose the reasons of current conflict. His point of view is not too popular among European politicians but it seems they keep in mind some of his statements.
http://www.klaus.cz/clanky/3553
Short extract:Quote from: Vaclav KlausThe cacophony of commentaries and statements to recent Ukrainian developments misses the point that the first and foremost contribution to the current dramatic situation there is the obvious political, economic and social failure of Ukraine as an independent state.
A large part of the European political mainstream (although much less in Germany and even less in the south of the EU) tries, together with the United States, to turn Russia into a “bogey man” in the East, something that is in the American strategic interest. Ukraine is only a tool in that respect.
Certainly, FSB is not so powerful to instigate civil wars. The ground for conflict was nourished by history trailing back to SU times. Former Czech president Vaclav Klaus wrote an extensive essay where he tried to expose the reasons of current conflict. His point of view is not too popular among European politicians but it seems they keep in mind some of his statements.
http://www.klaus.cz/clanky/3553 (http://www.klaus.cz/clanky/3553)
Short extract:
Back to the war. This is not my view, but that of Russian soldiers. You know, the ones many posters on the forums claim were never in Ukraine?
http://www.newsweek.com/2014/09/19/russian-soldiers-reveal-truth-behind-putins-secret-war-269227.html (http://www.newsweek.com/2014/09/19/russian-soldiers-reveal-truth-behind-putins-secret-war-269227.html)
Certainly, FSB is not so powerful to instigate civil wars.
Maybe you need to learn to read? I have explained before what happened. I did not read it in KyivPost. Please re-read my post.
I speak only Russian and live in Ukraine. For some reason I am interested in this issue and for some reason I know something about it. Do you think you know better?
Russian has not been banned in Ukriane and there have been no attempts to do so.
You are full of shit.
...
http://www.klaus.cz/clanky/3553 (http://www.klaus.cz/clanky/3553)
You are wrong. In the treaty the USA did not give open end security guarantees to Ukraine.
We only said two things. We would not attack Ukraine and we would come to defense of Ukraine if it were attacked by nuclear weapons.
Read the agreement again if you need to.
The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to respect the Independence and Sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.
The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.
The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.
The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used.
The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm, in the case of the Ukraine, their commitment not to use nuclear weapons against any non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a state in association or alliance with a nuclear weapon state.
The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland will consult in the event a situation arises which raises a question concerning these commitments.
Which part of what YOUR president SAID you are having a difficult time understanding here dude?Do you know the difference between a LAW and words of an official, even the president? Whatever he said and how well or poorly it was translated and interpreted, there are WRITTEN LAWS that are more important.
We failed. You may defend current US policy. I won't
Do you know the difference between a LAW and words of an official, even the president?
Whatever he said and how well or poorly it was translated and interpreted, there are WRITTEN LAWS that are more important. If you live by what your president SAYS and don't care what is in your laws, congratulations. ...
Ukraine is different though.
...And, where did you see the word BAN in your quote?...
Russian has never been banned in Ukraine. Understand?Oh I understood it perfectly well but it is obvious you're the one who is clueless about what your own Parliament is doing or tried to do. Had they succeeded with what they wanted to do, and you can only speak Russian not Ukrainian, you would have been royally screwed, right? This new government is supposed to be what you wanted to have, so you better make sure you're aware of what it is they're doing from here on in.
Oh of course I do.It's very difficult to argue with an idiot becausehe will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience. So I am not going to. People like that can prove that we live on the inner surface of the planet.
I would have to see the text of the Ukrainian interview. But the unfolding of the legislation is as we described it.
The legislation also caused a "huge resonance" when it was introduced by the Party of Regions. It went through several amendments, and was still convoluted and complex, because of all the objections to it. It caused a "huge resonance" in each of those stages as well, but it was pushed through by the party in power, and had enough amendments that coalition partners were willing to back it. So, really, what occurred was not surprising, and you really are making a mountain out of a molehill.
Russian was never banned in Ukraine andthe KimSiberia was always having the option to choose to be part ofRussiaChina. Let´s agree on that?
It's very difficult to argue with an idiot because he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience. So I am not going to. People like that can prove that we live on the inner surface of the planet. ...
A lot of words can be said but the bottom line is: Russian has never been banned in Ukraine. Nor have there been persecutions or oppressions of Russian-speaking Ukrainians. Whatever laws were adopted, canceled or drafted there, whatever an official said. I guess that’s enough to say....
...As for possible deprivation of local languages their status, we had lived without this law until 2012 when it was adopted and were free to use Russian to any extent. The only difference is ads must have translation into Ukrainian (normally in small print) and if I sent a letter to the authorities in Russian, they answer me in Ukrainian. Nothing changed when the law was adopted. I guess nothing would have changed if it had been canceled. It was not canceled, so nothing changed literally. Much ado about nothing. And too much lies.
I tried to find the Figaro interview, as I do read French rather well. However, it is subscriber only. The only translations I found with a google search are reported by pro Kremlin friendlypropagandanews sites, so the accuracy of what Poroshenko stated is rather dubious, at best.
I tried to find the Figaro interview, as I do read French rather well. However, it is subscriber only....
...The only translations I found with a google search are reported by pro Kremlin friendlypropagandanews sites, so the accuracy of what Poroshenko stated is rather dubious, at best.
In it, the excerpt read as follows:
...Il admet également que l'abrogation du statut de seconde langue officielle du russe a été «une erreur: jamais je ne pourrai promulguer une loi pareille»...
Either our esteemed linguist, Sandro, could graciously translate it for us (that is, if he doesn't have to crack open a French dictionary as one of your prodigal beloved advised him to do with English) or take what Google translator can do for us...
... He also admits that the repeal of a second official language of the Russian was "a mistake: I could never enact such a law."
Link here: http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2014/06/27/01003-20140627ARTFIG00363-le-president-ukrainien-explique-son-plan-de-paix-au-figaro.php (http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2014/06/27/01003-20140627ARTFIG00363-le-president-ukrainien-explique-son-plan-de-paix-au-figaro.php)
Poroshenko speaks French?
I tried to get it for you counselor but apparently my French Executive Privilege ran out. Maybe our token French member, Patagonie, can oblige us with the actual piece.
But for now, fear not, being both sexy and cool that I am, I'm still able to at least get the bulletin announcement released the day prior to highlight the content of the interview which was to be released (shown?) the day later.
In it, the excerpt read as follows:
...Il admet également que l'abrogation du statut de seconde langue officielle du russe a été «une erreur: jamais je ne pourrai promulguer une loi pareille»...
... He also admits that the repeal of a second official language of the Russian was "a mistake: I could never enact such a law."
Link here: http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2014/06/27/01003-20140627ARTFIG00363-le-president-ukrainien-explique-son-plan-de-paix-au-figaro.php (http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2014/06/27/01003-20140627ARTFIG00363-le-president-ukrainien-explique-son-plan-de-paix-au-figaro.php)
Now Porky is on the right track with what he said today..."There is no military solution"....
http://in.news.yahoo.com/ukraines-leader-sees-no-military-solution-crisis-eyes-101807161.html (http://in.news.yahoo.com/ukraines-leader-sees-no-military-solution-crisis-eyes-101807161.html)
Despite what some of the 'brave' chickenhawks have to say, a person would have to be rather dimwitted to think Russia wouldn't continue to escalate if we started arming Ukraine. This would result in many many more dead Ukrainian bodies.
Although some pretend to 'care' about the Ukrainians, the real thing they care about is Punishing Russia...even if that entails 1000's more dead Ukrainians. so for those that actually want to see a solution...that will start at a table with pen and paper...it will be done by 2 sides (NOT THE USA) coming together and accepting an imperfect agreement from their individual perspectives. despite all the soiling of the sheets from people here mistakenly comparing Russia to the Germany of 75 years ago, Porky is perhaps finally figuring out it is in his people's best interest to put the fomenting USA on 'ignore' and forge forward with Russia and hammer this out.
Fathertime!
If you could read Ukrainian, you would know that Poroshenko has always believed that a military solution was not the best one.
Yes, all the negotiations were recorded. Some day, you will know that, but it won't be for decades, perhaps after Putin's death.
I suppose you believe Putin sketched out the "peace plan" on a trip to Mongolia and hunts bareback in the taiga, as well?
I didn't state the obvious. I refuted what you posted. Had my statement been obvious, you would not have posted what you did.
Now you are completely changing your story.
Earlier you posted: "The US-UK have violated the agreement. The treaty bound them to giving Ukraine security guarantees. "
I pointed out to you that you were wrong in what you thought USA had agreed to.
Now you have changed to make me at fault for "defend current US policy."
I have stated in several other threads that I think the USA should do much more, even as we are not bound by any agreements to do such.
Yes, all the negotiations were recorded. Some day, you will know that, but it won't be for decades, perhaps after Putin's death.
I suppose you believe Putin sketched out the "peace plan" on a trip to Mongolia and hunts bareback in the taiga, as well?
I didn't state the obvious. I refuted what you posted. Had my statement been obvious, you would not have posted what you did.
No. He speaks Tagalog. He said...
"Alam ko na mali na iyon na nga. Dapat hindi nila inalis itong Russian lengguwahe sa aming batas. Hindi na ito mangyayari sa aking administrasyon."
btw, so there's no confusion. No means no. In Slovencina, 'no' means 'yes'. OK?
Thanks. I'd already read that, as it comes up on a google search. But, that is a synopsis (and your google translate is close enough), rather than Poroshenko's own words.
...The legislation repealed was one giving Russian regional status as an official language. It did not ban the Russian language, which is constitutionally protected. I always thought that repeal was a mistake as well, as it came at a rather volatile time....
Anything you read, anywhere, about Russian language in Ukraine being threatened, of Russians being oppressed, of Russians being denied the right to speak Russian is pure BS....
Well, that is those who speak Tagalog believe but those who speak Ukrainian quiet sure Poroshenko said 'рішення Верховної Ради про позбавлення російської мови статусу регіональної було помилкою' as well as 'під час моєї передвиборчої кампанії я неодноразово підкреслював, що ніколи подібний закон не отримає мого схвалення'.
And regardless how google translator would translate those sentences in english, french, tagalog or any other language his words correct translations are:
'decision of Parliament to take away regional status of Russian language was a mistake'
'during my election campaign, I have repeatedly emphasized that such a law will not get my approval'.
Now those who speak Tagalog should go back and read what Boethius and Stirlitz have told him and get their heads around one very simple thing: russian language never have been banned and/or deprived in Ukraine. As well those who speak Tagalog should finally get into their head that even Constitution of Ukraine ' guaranteeing the free development, use and protection of the Russian language and other languages of national minorities of Ukraine'.
If in case those who speak Tagalog struggle to understand what means regional language in Ukraine they should look up 'Bill on the principles of the state language policy" adopted in 2012.
'
You should really take the time to first understand what was posted. ;)
Nite, nite for me...
You mean I should understand better that some hooked up on russian propaganda and can't see anymore difference between their imaginary world and reality?
Ukrainians understand what is at stake, and there would be more than the estimated 2,000 dead Russian soldiers, most of them young, going home. I believe the fact this started to become public knowledge is what finally lead Putin to agree to a ceasefire
The 2,000 number comes from Russian sources, and is at the lower end.This time you're mistaken ) The original source is Lysenko, speaker for Ukrainian army.
I know and you're welcome...it would be really nice if somehow we can get the full transcript of the interview. The synopsis is simply that. Void of the additional context suggested by those who apparently had access to the actual interview.
But what if the interim president signed the adopted bill and making it a law? Constitutions carry amendments. Simply because certain laws are in Constitutions doesn't mean it can never be modified, changed, amended or altogether removed. Ukraine just exercised this very recently. Just like what the Parliament tried to do with this bill..
The point is, why would the Rada even attempt to repeal such in the first place? Especially at such a very sensitive time in Ukraine (apparently right after the ousting of Yanukovich)? This is the suggested part where Poroshenko commented that it caused a 'huge resonance'. Beyond the intent of the legislation, what other point is there other than to incite an unfavorable (maybe disregard) reaction by the minority Ukrainians (ethnic Russians)? Do you even see how this look to Ukraine's minority population especially considering Yanukovich's largest voting base are from the east of Ukraine which is mainly ethnic-Russians?
I would beg to differ base on this information. I'll reserve this opinion until I get the full transcript of the interview. It certainly caused Poroshenko enough angst to even mention this, IMHO.
(http://img0.joyreactor.cc/pics/post/%D0%AF-%D0%92%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA-%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B5-%D0%A3%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0-%D0%9D%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%8F-%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F-%D0%90%D1%80%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%8F-1518135.jpeg)
estimated 2,000 dead Russian soldiers, most of them young, going home. I believe the fact this started to become public knowledge is what finally lead Putin to agree to a ceasefire which, incidentally, Russian troops and the terrorists have violated daily.
Now Porky is on the right track with what he said today..."There is no military solution"....
http://in.news.yahoo.com/ukraines-leader-sees-no-military-solution-crisis-eyes-101807161.html (http://in.news.yahoo.com/ukraines-leader-sees-no-military-solution-crisis-eyes-101807161.html)
Despite what some of the 'brave' chickenhawks have to say, a person would have to be rather dimwitted to think Russia wouldn't continue to escalate if we started arming Ukraine. This would result in many many more dead Ukrainian bodies.
Poroshenko doesn't believe in a military solution since he's up against a superior foe. Putin believes in a military solution. Putin will not escalate this war if we arm Ukraine. Putin has already escalated this war without anybody arming Ukraine. If Russia breaks the cease fire, Ukrainians will fight to stop Russia's military solution and they will continue to request the West to arm them. The cost in Russian lives is probably one of the biggest things that will get Putin to de-escalate his military solution. If Putin knows he going to get Ukraine easy, there wouldn't have been a cease fire at this moment.
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
Matthew 5:9
I think they feel it is too important a region for them to let it go completely.
When the costs become greater than the reward, Putin will let it go. The costs become too great for Russia when enough Russians die.
Yeah if ENOUGH Russians were to die, like all of them..... but the Russians have always had the ability to move in with real heavy equipment and start annihilating Ukrainians, if that was what they wanted to do...and clearly it isn't
Whatever losses they have suffered, they have permitted it to happen...as they are ones with the power. I think Russia has shown that they would take this as far as they had to....if we escalate they escalate more...where that ends is a bad place for the world.
Fathertime!
FT, I would bet if enough Russians were to die, Putin's popularity would diminish. From casual reading, it seems the cause of death for many of the Russian soldiers are being withheld from families. Now if popularity will deter Putin, who knows.
Stirlitz, MissAmeno, Doll or anyone actually in or from the region,
what are your thoughts on the ceasefire and EU's decision to delay the AA?
GQB, smoky eyes or natural?
What ceasefire? Piece of paper that was signed in Minsk on 05/09/14?
....So they have two choices. Return Crimea. And return to the status that have been. Or punch through to there (Crimea) their way. Up to today we are seeing the 2nd option. No wonder 400 tanks concentrated in the area of Rostov. In Crimea grouping pressing under Kolonchak There are 15 thousand troops and 5 large airborne boats. In Transnistria, also grouping of about 20 thousand troops who are armed to the teeth. So now just trying to talk with Kremlin is useless. Required pressure from NATO countries and work in other areas Putin can say one thing and do another "
Basically Putin holds naive westerners by promise of ceasefire while preparing for bigger invasion.
:shock:
Translation of an article from a Ukrainian paper on how terrorists treat POW's.
http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/09/12/former-pow-even-demons-in-hell-are-kinder-than-dnr-fighters/ (http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/09/12/former-pow-even-demons-in-hell-are-kinder-than-dnr-fighters/)
Original article. Note, this paper is printed in the banned Russian language.
http://society.lb.ua/position/2014/09/11/279026_dazhe_cherti_adu_dobree_dnrovtsi.html (http://society.lb.ua/position/2014/09/11/279026_dazhe_cherti_adu_dobree_dnrovtsi.html)
And why do you think tho ceasefire was signed USA hit such severe sanctions? Russia pulling closer and closer more and more troops.
What ceasefire? Piece of paper that was signed in Minsk on 05/09/14?
Well, the representative of the self-proclaimed "DNR" said that neither "DNR" or 'LNR" had not signed any truce.
Neither they have stopped shooting all this time.
Situation on 13/09/14
(http://static.gazeta.ua/img/cache/gallery/580/580799_1_w_1000.jpg)
Now compare it to situation on 05/09/14
(http://static.gazeta.ua/img/cache/gallery/579/579354_1_w_1000.jpg)
So what ceasefire we are talking about?
My personal opinion about what is happening is close to the view of military expert, Major General Stanislaw Slobodyanyk. He said: "In Crimea 2.5 million of people, who need to eat and get everything required for life support. Provision through Kerch Strait by ships is absolutely insufficient. Russia needs transport artery on land. Then they can do something with Crimea. So they have two choices. Return Crimea. And return to the status that have been. Or punch through to there (Crimea) their way. Up to today we are seeing the 2nd option. No wonder 400 tanks concentrated in the area of Rostov. In Crimea grouping pressing under Kolonchak There are 15 thousand troops and 5 large airborne boats. In Transnistria, also grouping of about 20 thousand troops who are armed to the teeth. So now just trying to talk with Kremlin is useless. Required pressure from NATO countries and work in other areas Putin can say one thing and do another "
Basically Putin holds naive westerners by promise of ceasefire while preparing for bigger invasion.
Russia has taken significant losses. Is the Russian military capable of a larger invasion?
They supplied 6 crematorium trucks in Rostov, so I guess losses of human lives are sorted.
Miss Ameno, Kate reads internet news everyday from both Russia and Ukraine.
But, there have been some blogs instituted now by private Russians that tell of the deaths of young Russian soldiers operating in Ukraine.
The families of these dead boys say they and their son was never told that they were going to be sent to fight and die in another country.
As this accumulates, it is possible that ordinary Russians will become more alarmed; but probably little they can do about it.
The amazing thing is that even as Russian media is controlled mostly by the government, there are tons of info available on the Internet telling the true story. However, as with most things in life, it doesn't matter how many facts a person reads, they can still choose to stick with their original beliefs. This apparently is holding true for vast majority of Russian population that feels a superiority over Ukrainians.
It took several years for US casualties to reach 2,000. Ukraine claims that as many as 2,000 Russians are dead because of Putin's war:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/2014/09/08/346735504/some-in-russia-admit-their-troops-volunteer-in-ukraine (http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/2014/09/08/346735504/some-in-russia-admit-their-troops-volunteer-in-ukraine)
Those killed died in six month period.
Russia is a smaller country than the US. It is very different, but those statistics if true are staggering. I think Ukraine should resume the fighting and even escalate the conflict by bombing positions on the other side of the border.
....The legislation repealed was one giving Russian regional status as an official language. It did not ban the Russian language, which is constitutionally protected. I always thought that repeal was a mistake as well, as it came at a rather volatile time. However, it did nothing to change the ability of Russian speakers to use Russian in their daily lives, listen to Russian media, enrol their children in Russian schools, etc. Government in Ukraine generally has been conducted (officially) in Ukrainian. Business in Ukraine, overall, has always been, and still is, conducted in Russian.
Anything you read, anywhere, about Russian language in Ukraine being threatened, of Russians being oppressed, of Russians being denied the right to speak Russian is pure BS.
If Russia decides to get serious about this, Ukraine will be obliterated
Are you justifying Putin's use of nuclear weapons?
No, that is not even in the conversation at this point.
Fathertime!
Boethius-
What you wrote above is wrong.
Apparently what the Parliament adopted last February 2014 was in fact the removal of 2012 language law that protected languages spoken by minorities with at least 10% population in Ukraine. I repeat, the Ukrainian Parliament adopted a bill to repeal this law. It was a broad sweeping attempt to abolish not only the Russian language, but Hungarian, Romanian, etc...
http://www.politics.hu/20140225/scrapping-language-law-could-question-new-ukrainian-admins-democratic-commitment-says-foreign-ministry/ (http://www.politics.hu/20140225/scrapping-language-law-could-question-new-ukrainian-admins-democratic-commitment-says-foreign-ministry/)
http://www.romea.cz/en/news/world/ukrainian-parliament-abolishes-language-law-neighboring-states-protest (http://www.romea.cz/en/news/world/ukrainian-parliament-abolishes-language-law-neighboring-states-protest)
http://en.ria.ru/world/20140303/188063675/Ukraines-2012-Language-Law-to-Stay-Until-New-Bill-Ready--Turchynov.html (http://en.ria.ru/world/20140303/188063675/Ukraines-2012-Language-Law-to-Stay-Until-New-Bill-Ready--Turchynov.html)
This is exactly what Poroshenko talked about in that interview.
Apparently what the Parliament adopted last February 2014 was in fact the removal of 2012 language law that protected languages spoken by minorities with at least 10% population in Ukraine. I repeat, the Ukrainian Parliament adopted a bill to repeal this law. It was a broad sweeping attempt to abolish not only the Russian language, but Hungarian, Romanian, etc...
I want all those concerned to read this and absorb this. The lives of dead Russian soldiers are a political liability to Putin. That is sick.
Where can I get the Russian lyrics to the final song?
You try hard to act like you understand but statements like this reveal that you do not. 2000 dead Russian soldiers are of no consequence to Putin. 100,000 or more deaths and he's not going to lose a moments sleep. You don't understand what is at play.
Russians are whipped up in a frenzy and being fed the same shit sandwich they enjoyed in the Soviet days. It's getting tasty again. Putin is nothing more than a mafia boss with armies and nuclear weapons. It doesn't matter to him or his regime how many Russians get killed. It's all about achieving his goals. He's being cautious because he still wants to commerce with the West. It's their money that will keep him in power and make him stronger. He may at some point reject one or the other, Western capital or Ukraine. It's becoming clearer than he can't have both. He's been playing this like he can have both. We'll have to wait and see the outcome.
However, don't fool yourself. It doesn't matter to Putin how many die. The majority of Russian will believe everything he says.
The only thing the Russians have in their arsenal that can obliterate are nuclear weapons, which they still after 23 years after the fall of communism still have that works. The Russian military is great at killing civilians and unarmed people - not good with everything else.
Putin is nothing more than a mafia boss with armies and nuclear weapons. It doesn't matter to him or his regime how many Russians get killed. It's all about achieving his goals.
Putin, of whom I saw a fair amount as UK ambassador to Moscow, is not an ideologically driven fanatic, but much closer to Talleyrand – the calculating, pragmatic rebuilder of his country’s status in the world.
This is not correct. Russia has a very powerful military in addition to nukes....
Fathertime!
если ты гражданин, если ты президент
для тебя есть закон, для тебя есть запрет
из казны не воруй, и не лги никогда
будь открытым для всех, отвечай за слова
восемь лет президент и опять кандидат
посмотри нам вглаза и закрой свой мандат
доверяли тебе, а ты врал много лет
применяя во всём свой ГБшный секрет
Ты такой же, как я - человек, а не бог
я такой же, как ты - человек, а не лох
не дадим больше врать, не дадим воровать
мы Свободы десант, с нами родина мать
ты обычный чиновник, не царь и не бог
для тебя человек тупой бандерлог
цвет ленты Свободы для всех позитив
и лишь для тебя презерватив
я смотрю на тебя, на портреты твои
ты нам врёшь до сих пор, как медведи твои
мы устали смотреть на позор всей страны
с нищетой деревень рядом замки твои
разхвалил оборонку и армию сдал
на солдат положил, офицеров послал
мы тебе не простим все заслуги твои
мы требуем мира, тиран - уходи!
Ты такой же, как я - человек, а не бог
я такой же, как ты - человек, а не лох
не дадим больше врать, не дадим воровать
мы Свободы десант, с нами Родина-мать
ты обычный чиновник, не царь и не бог
для тебя человек тупой бандерлог
цвет ленты Свободы для всех позитив
и лишь для тебя презерватив
вспомни наших дедов, воевавших с СС
вспомни наших гвардейцев сошедших с небес
в нашем сердце остались Берлин и Афган
ну а сердце ЕдРосов - личный карман
нынче честь не в почете, достоинства нет
есть только системный отблеск монет
машины и тряпки, глобальный вещизм
это прогнившей системы цинизм
забыли культуру, а в школах ЕГЭ
дипломы за деньги, и взятки везде
лечиться бесплатно не может старик
это прогнившей системы тупик
Ты такой же, как я - человек, а не бог
Я такой же, как ты - человек, а не лох
не дадим больше врать, не дадим воровать
мы Свободы десант, с нами Родина-мать
ты обычный чиновник, не царь и не бог
для тебя человек тупой бандерлог
цвет ленты Свободы для всех позитив
и лишь для тебя презерватив
My translation (sorry if not perfect but I tried my best)
If you are a citizen, if you are the president
there exist the law for you, there exist prohibition for you
Do not steal from the Treasury, do not lie ever
Be open to all, answer for the words
Eight years have been the president and the candidate again
Look into our eyes and close your mandate
We trusted to you and you lied for many years
applying throughout everything your KGB secret
You're just like me - a man and not a god
I'm the same as you - a man and not a goof
We will not let lie anymore, will not let to steal
we are Liberty Troopers, with us mother homeland
you are a regular clerk, not a king and not a god
for you person is a stupid banderlog*
color of Liberty ribbon is for all a positive
and just for you it is condom
I look at you, on your portraits
you're lying to us all the time same as your bears
we are tired of seeing the shame of the whole country
with the poverty of villages next to your castles
destroyed defense industry and betrayed the army
sh*ted on soldiers, told officers to f*ck off
we do not forgive to you all your achievements
we demand peace, the tyrant - go away!
You're just like me - a man and not a god
I'm the same as you - a man and not a goof
We will not let lie anymore, will not let to steal
we are Liberty Troopers, with us mother homeland
you are a regular clerk, not a king and not a god
for you person is a stupid banderlog*
color of Liberty ribbon is for all a positive
and just for you it is condom
remember our grandfathers who fought with the SS
Remember our the guardsmen descended from heaven
in our hearts remained Berlin and Afgan
well and the heart of EdRosov is personal pocket
These days honor is not respected, no dignity
there is only a system of reflection of the coins
car and rags, global materialism
this is rotten system's cynicism
forgotten culture, and in schools USE**
diplomas are for money, and bribes everywhere
the elderly man can not be treated for free**
this is rotten system's deadlock
You're just like me - a man and not a god
I'm the same as you - a man and not a goof
We will not let lie anymore, will not let to steal
we are Liberty Troopers, with us mother homeland
you are a regular clerk, not a king and not a god
for you person is a stupid banderlog*
color of Liberty ribbon is for all a positive
and just for you it is condom
* banderlog - a term used in Rudyard Kipling's The Jungle Book to describe the monkeys. Its a term Putin used to refer to demonstrators
** USE - Unified State Exam (Единый государственный экзамен) - exam in secondary schools of RF
***be treated for free - in this case meant receive free medical care
My personal view concurs with the assessment of Tony Brenton, former UK ambassador to Moscow (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/vladimir-putin/11084600/Its-time-to-back-away-from-the-Russian-wolf.html):
(http://gdb.rferl.org/65F73CD4-B605-4822-8823-946BA08E7DF6_w974_n_s_s.jpg)
Breton's words
Russia’s objectives – a neutral Ukraine, and constitutional safeguards for the population in the East – are not impossible to meet. We do deals with China, with Iran, with North Korea. Uncomfortable as it may be, the time has come to do a deal with Putin. Part of this should be easy; Ukraine is in any case going to be in no condition to join Nato for the foreseeable future. Negotiating an acceptable level of autonomy for East Ukraine will be much harder. The Russians are in possession, and will not let go until their concerns are met.
Belvis
Breton is of the same opinion as Fathertime on this forum is and, like FT it is his prerogative to be wrong. This is based on the premise that because the neighborhood bully wants to have influence and dictate how his neighbors live and under what rules. It is better to appease the bully than to have to fight him. Russia wouldn't do it, why do you expect Ukraine should? Because Russia has a bigger military and nukes, Ukraine should simply submit to Putin's idea of a perfect Ukraine?
You try hard to act like you understand but statements like this reveal that you do not. 2000 dead Russian soldiers are of no consequence to Putin. 100,000 or more deaths and he's not going to lose a moments sleep. You don't understand what is at play.
Russians are whipped up in a frenzy and being fed the same shit sandwich they enjoyed in the Soviet days. It's getting tasty again. Putin is nothing more than a mafia boss with armies and nuclear weapons. It doesn't matter to him or his regime how many Russians get killed. It's all about achieving his goals. He's being cautious because he still wants to commerce with the West. It's their money that will keep him in power and make him stronger. He may at some point reject one or the other, Western capital or Ukraine. It's becoming clearer than he can't have both. He's been playing this like he can have both. We'll have to wait and see the outcome.
However, don't fool yourself. It doesn't matter to Putin how many die. The majority of Russian will believe everything he says.
Very well said. +100
Putin has every right to cut Ukraine off completely from every thing Russian, call all Russians home from Ukraine, build a China like wall at the border if he wishes but, he doesn't have the right to invade Ukrainian lands or dictate with whom or how Ukraine should function.Alas, the world is spoiled by double standards. U.S. suffers credibility issues when it comes to foreign policy. The same superpower that rush into war with Yugoslavia, Lybia, Afghanistan, Iraq and now Syria has now denounced Russia for intervention into Ukrainian civil war.
Maybe it is wrong or maybe it is right to take the 'less worse option'. I've always assumed there were some details, factoids that we (the public) aren't fully aware of as it relates to this situation. From what I've read thus far, it seems to me that Ukraine would be better served to ultimately relent and make the best deal possible, and that may well wind up happening. There will be a different time, and different circumstances where they might actually have a chance, but right now it seems to me that they will wind up getting slaughtered. But hey, they are the ones there, let them choose to do what they want to do.
Fathertime!
I am surprised that you never have condemmed Russia for invading and annexing another country,
Russia stance: Ukrainian conflict is the obvious case where the adverse consequences for national security of not going to conflict outweigh any economic and political costs of intervention. It's not even the national security, it is the moral obligations to Russian people, part of which was left in Ukraine after dissolution of the Soviet Union and refused to accept Ukrainian identity.
Twenty years of Ukrainian independence convince them they don't want to share the nationalist ambitions of western Ukrainians, so they have decided to cease their association with Ukraine. Russia interferes in Ukrainian affairs on behalf of rebellious population to save them from repressions. Negotiations and constructive approach to own people from Kiev side would avert the russian meddling in Ukraine.
Russia stance: Ukrainian conflict is the obvious case where the adverse consequences for national security of not going to conflict outweigh any economic and political costs of intervention. It's not even the national security, it is the moral obligations to Russian people, part of which was left in Ukraine after dissolution of the Soviet Union and refused to accept Ukrainian identity.
Alas, the world is spoiled by double standards. U.S. suffers credibility issues when it comes to foreign policy. The same superpower that rush into war with Yugoslavia, Lybia, Afghanistan, Iraq and now Syria has now denounced Russia for intervention into Ukrainian civil war.
OK, let's put question of moral authority aside.
Russia stance: Ukrainian conflict is the obvious case where the adverse consequences for national security of not going to conflict outweigh any economic and political costs of intervention. It's not even the national security, it is the moral obligations to Russian people, part of which was left in Ukraine after dissolution of the Soviet Union and refused to accept Ukrainian identity.
Twenty years of Ukrainian independence convince them they don't want to share the nationalist ambitions of western Ukrainians, so they have decided to cease their association with Ukraine. Russia interferes in Ukrainian affairs on behalf of rebellious population to save them from repressions. Negotiations and constructive approach to own people from Kiev side would avert the russian meddling in Ukraine.
Legal arguments do not work here when process of self-disintegration takes place. The majority of modern countries including US have gained independence as a result of a violent struggle, ignoring the law of the time.
Alas, the world is spoiled by double standards. U.S. suffers credibility issues when it comes to foreign policy. The same superpower that rush into war with Yugoslavia, Lybia, Afghanistan, Iraq and now Syria has now denounced Russia for intervention into Ukrainian civil war.
OK, let's put question of moral authority aside.
Russia stance: Ukrainian conflict is the obvious case where the adverse consequences for national security of not going to conflict outweigh any economic and political costs of intervention. It's not even the national security, it is the moral obligations to Russian people, part of which was left in Ukraine after dissolution of the Soviet Union and refused to accept Ukrainian identity.
Twenty years of Ukrainian independence convince them they don't want to share the nationalist ambitions of western Ukrainians, so they have decided to cease their association with Ukraine. Russia interferes in Ukrainian affairs on behalf of rebellious population to save them from repressions. Negotiations and constructive approach to own people from Kiev side would avert the russian meddling in Ukraine.
Legal arguments do not work here when process of self-disintegration takes place. The majority of modern countries including US have gained independence as a result of a violent struggle, ignoring the law of the time.
Считаем груз 200 после уже озвученных 2000 погибших:
300 убитых в Победе, 47 расстрелянных при выходе из Иловайска, 120 погибших из сводной колоны 1200 бойцов Снежное (470 раненых), 70 погибших псковских десантников (10 остались живы), 230 погибших колона на марше под артобстрелом, 60 вырезал батальон Кавказ - полностью артдивизион, 59 тел в могиле под Новоазовском, примерно 40 тел сбросили в шахту. Всего 926 погибших. И это только то, что подтверждено из разных источников. А сколько ещё раненых не довезли и не спасли?
Матери и жены!!! В этой цифре может быть и ваш сын-муж. Хватит уже молчать!!
Да, забыла в шахту у Краснокаменска сбросили почти 600 тел..... Считайте, блин
Counting load 200 already after known 2,000 dead:
300 dead at Pobeda, 47 shot at the exit of Ilovaysk, 120 dead from the combined column, 1200 fighters at Snezhnoe (470 wounded), 70 dead Pskov paratroopers (10 survived), 230 died in the colony on the march under the shelling, 60 slaughtered by battalion Caucasus - all artillery battalion, 59 bodies in a grave under Novoazovskiy, about 40 bodies dumped in the mine. Total 926 victims. And that's just what is confirmed from multiple sources. And how many more wounded did not reach [meaning hospitals] and were not saved?
Mothers and wives !!! In this figure could be your son/husband. Enough already be silent !!
Oh, I forgot in the mine at Krasnokamensk have been dropped nearly 600 bodies ..... Count, damn it
Alas, the world is spoiled by double standards. U.S. suffers credibility issues when it comes to foreign policy. The same superpower that rush into war with Yugoslavia, Lybia, Afghanistan, Iraq and now Syria has now denounced Russia for intervention into Ukrainian civil war.
OK, let's put question of moral authority aside.
Russia stance: Ukrainian conflict is the obvious case where the adverse consequences for national security of not going to conflict outweigh any economic and political costs of intervention. It's not even the national security, it is the moral obligations to Russian people, part of which was left in Ukraine after dissolution of the Soviet Union and refused to accept Ukrainian identity.
Twenty years of Ukrainian independence convince them they don't want to share the nationalist ambitions of western Ukrainians, so they have decided to cease their association with Ukraine. Russia interferes in Ukrainian affairs on behalf of rebellious population to save them from repressions. Negotiations and constructive approach to own people from Kiev side would avert the russian meddling in Ukraine.
Legal arguments do not work here when process of self-disintegration takes place. The majority of modern countries including US have gained independence as a result of a violent struggle, ignoring the law of the time.
Alas, the world is spoiled by double standards. U.S. suffers credibility issues when it comes to foreign policy. The same superpower that rush into war with Yugoslavia, Lybia, Afghanistan, Iraq and now Syria has now denounced Russia for intervention into Ukrainian civil war.
OK, let's put question of moral authority aside.
Russia stance: Ukrainian conflict is the obvious case where the adverse consequences for national security of not going to conflict outweigh any economic and political costs of intervention. It's not even the national security, it is the moral obligations to Russian people, part of which was left in Ukraine after dissolution of the Soviet Union and refused to accept Ukrainian identity.
Twenty years of Ukrainian independence convince them they don't want to share the nationalist ambitions of western Ukrainians, so they have decided to cease their association with Ukraine. Russia interferes in Ukrainian affairs on behalf of rebellious population to save them from repressions. Negotiations and constructive approach to own people from Kiev side would avert the russian meddling in Ukraine.
Legal arguments do not work here when process of self-disintegration takes place. The majority of modern countries including US have gained independence as a result of a violent struggle, ignoring the law of the time.
Fellow countrymen met the deceased soldier on knees
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tMjl1euADEg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tMjl1euADEg)
A good explanation of the mindset of the region -
http://ukrainianweek.com/Politics/118865 (http://ukrainianweek.com/Politics/118865)
...Therefore, your understanding is still flawed.
Belvis, I truly believe the majority of Ukrainian citizens do not want to split the country. There may be a divide in what direction they feel is right, but splitting up isn't in the cards. I also suspect that divide is less and less as Russia continues with their covert or not so convert actions...
...The main facts is it should be up to Ukrainians to fix Ukraine. Same with Americans needing to fix America. Russia, US and other countries shouldn't be a part of the mix. Unfortunately, Ukraine is in the middle of a proxy war. As far as I'm concerned, it isn't even about Ukraine.
Superbly written - and, unfortunately, could well be totally ignored by those who have any say in the matter and need to be responsible for the clean-up.
Fellow countrymen met the deceased soldier on knees
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tMjl1euADEg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tMjl1euADEg)
Although there are ethnic Russians in the Donbas, they are not the majority population. The majority populations in both Donetsk and Luhansk self identify as ethnic Ukrainians, not ethnic Russians. Therefore, Russia's "right" to cause war there, if ever justified, is not on the basis of protecting the rights of the majority population of the region.One should not fall in а mistake considering the conflict as ethnic. Yes, there is some ethnic component but I think the political reasons prevail. People divide over their history, heroes, culture, future of the country, political direction. Ukrainian army at Donbass speaks in Russian with many officers of russian background. There are many ethnic Ukrainians among rebels who hate cult of Bandera. Nobody has the right to cause wars and bomb cities and towns only because their inhabitants do not support Kiev.
Belvis, I truly believe the majority of Ukrainian citizens do not want to split the country. There may be a divide in what direction they feel is right, but splitting up isn't in the cards. I also suspect that divide is less and less as Russia continues with their covert or not so convert actions.
The rebels need to adhere to the law of the land or leave. There are no special laws for them because they are ethic Russian.
Stirlitz, MissAmeno, Doll or anyone actually in or from the region,I don’t know. I guess it is important to exchange prisoners. Putin had to cease fire because too many Russians were dying and people started to be slightly unhappy. So far only the relatives of the dead but it may get worse. Ukraine has to prepare for a worse war than before because now we face the pure Russian army not diluted with some local drunkards who know better how to flee (like they did from Slavyansk) and rob armless people rather than fight.
what are your thoughts on the ceasefire and EU's decision to delay the AA?
The Ukrainians on this forum (missA, Stirlitz, ghost of moon goddess) all speak Russian fluently. I would hazard a guess they speak it in their daily lives. Stirlitz lives in a city where almost no one uses Ukrainian in his/her daily life. Ask him how "oppressed" he has felt, linguistically, since the collapse of the USSR.I have been cruelly oppressed. Three times total since 1991. The first oppression came when I was in Lvov. They did not demand that I talk Ukrainian but they asked me why I did not. That was a very provocative and insulting question, wasn’t that? Imagine: I am a Ukrainian national in a Ukrainian city and they ask me why I don’t speak Ukrainian... Terrible oppression. But the worst oppression was when I studied at Odessa University. The professor asked me to procure some chalk for the blackboard. I went downstairs to the janitor who was in charge of it and asked for some. She demanded that I ask her again in Ukrainian or else I would get no chalk!!! I complained to the dean about that. But it did not take too long to be oppressed again. In just 6 years I was walking around the streets of Kiev and asked an old woman for the way. She also demanded that I do it in Ukrainian! And, I was even more oppressed as my girlfriend supported her. Terrible humiliation. So, I still feel pain from those oppressions and may see a shrink about it. Real Nazis, aren’t they? Oh, and something else I forgot to mention. When I send anything to the authorities (in Russian of couse) they nearly always answer me in Ukrainian. So I have to read it. That is even worse than oppression. A concentration camp, indeed.
Russia has a very powerful military in addition to nukes....Are you kidding? Do you mean the army that had a very hard time beating rebels in Chechnya? A country with about one million people? Give me a break. If they had a very powerful military, all of Ukraine would have been occupied in the spring.
Donbass people would not revolt if their views on country direction were taken into account by victorious party in Kiev.It is notable that Ukraine has 25 regions but only three of them (Donetsk, Lugansk, the Crimea) think they are exceptional and have special views that must be taken into account otherwise they will revolt and kill people. Why doesn’t Jitomir revolt? Why is it quiet in Kirovograd? Are they inferior to Donbass? The only feature of Donbass is that the thief president comes from it. Ukraine HAD been hearing the voice of Donbass for too long while this bastard and his henchmen were at power robbing the entire country! I guess that’s about enough to listen to Donbass, they said volumes. Let’s listen to the other 22 regions instead.
Twenty years of Ukrainian independence convince them they don't want to share the nationalist ambitions of western Ukrainians, so they have decided to cease their association with Ukraine. Russia interferes in Ukrainian affairs on behalf of rebellious population to save them from repressions.Aren’t you tired of repeating the same silly propaganda over and over again? You will need to go the surgeon to do some plastic on your nose which is obviously too long by now. Nobody makes them share the ambitions, and it was not them who decided, it was decided in the Kremlin. There have been no repressions. Can you name at least one person who was executed by the Ukrainian authorities or sentenced to long prison terms for separatism and treason? In fact, such criminals even if detained are at large in a few weeks or months. Our government is very mild in fact. Compare the two videos:
Here in Russia people in social networks are making fun of the number of dead Russian soldiersThere is a good place for you to make fun: www.mamasoldata.org. You can even get in touch with the mothers and laugh at them. Tell them: you are so funny! You raised a child who was killed in Ukraine for nothing, and our government does not even admit that! You are the mother of a nameless body buried as Soldier No.9 somewhere in Donbass. Ha-ha-ha!
There are many ethnic Ukrainians among rebels who hate cult of Bandera.The real cult of Bandera exists in Russia. In Ukraine we don’t talk too much about him, it is always the Russians or pro-Russians who start this silly rant about Bandera (while they don’t even know who he actually was and what he did, for example, the fact that he was a prisoner in a Nazi concetration camp is not known to them — how can you be a Nazi and suffer exactly from them along with the communists). Many Russians don’t even know his real name and confuse him to Ostap Bender or think he came from the town of Bendery (and they don’t realize it is Moldova). Making a mountain out of a molehill requires a talent. Goebbels cannot compare to them. How about Gen Vlasov? We are too lazy to troll the Russians but we might as well mark all Russians as Vlasovtsy just because their country has the flag that Gen Vlasov’s army used in WWII when fighting the Soviet Army (which had the red flag). Judging from the current Russian flag it is obvious to me who eventually won.
Unfortunately, LFU, Russians in general (those who only have access to their own media, and I don't include Belvis in their number) are (or seem to be) totally unaware of what is REALLY happening in Ukraine. Put aside all the stories of atrocities from both sides, and what do we have? A country trying to make its own way in the world, towards more freedom and less corruption, being smothered by its giant neighbour which doesn't want this to happen because it would mean that the giant has lost its influence. The giant also wants to make it clear to the rest of the world that it won't let any of its remaining sphere of influence shrink or disappear.Unfortunately you can replace Russia with EU and not change one word of the meaning.
Most of the world agrees with what I've bolded above - it would be really nice if Russia would take note. Of course, they won't, and this conflict will continue.
Unfortunately you can replace Russia with EU and not change one word of the meaning.
One should not fall in а mistake considering the conflict as ethnic. Yes, there is some ethnic component but I think the political reasons prevail. People divide over their history, heroes, culture, future of the country, political direction. Ukrainian army at Donbass speaks in Russian with many officers of russian background. There are many ethnic Ukrainians among rebels who hate cult of Bandera. Nobody has the right to cause wars and bomb cities and towns only because their inhabitants do not supportKievMoscow.
You can, because each member of the EU still retains its sovereignty - none of them have invaded any other (not recently, anyway), and they're all smaller than Ukraine.You are ill informed about the EU treaties.
I would've also understood the Parliament's actions to *amend* this law instead of solely repealing it for the sake of establishing Ukrainian as the state language but not eliminate bilingualism in the affected regions.
What I will NOT understand and accept is you trying to tell me red is black.
Talk about shooting from the hip! You simply won't stop with the conspiracy theories ever. As Stirlitz, a guy living in Ukraine but raised speaking the Russian language told you, Russian language has always been and always will be allowed (do you honestly think a Ukrainian shop owner anywhere in Ukraine would turn down business and currency from a Russian speaking customer?) as a language to do business in, and otherwise as well.
...There are all sorts of laws debated in the US Congress which can be twisted and turned any way you please, if you have time for that. Or you can just go on what is actually practiced on a day to day basis throughout the country.
Boethius-I understood it just fine and no, it isn't flawed.You always fall in this narrative that I either don't understand Ukraine's history to make any sensible observation of this conflict, or simply because I don't speak Ukrainian. First you tell me Ukraine is not a republic. I proved you wrong. Then, and contrary to your initial admission, that the ousting of the president was within Ukraine's constitutional script and is legal. You are also wrong.
Unless you're trying to call red the new black, nothing in this latest debate rendered what I've been saying as erroneous. Not based on Poroshenko's interview context. Not based on those link I provided to you. Certainly not based on the reaction, not only from Russia, but from OSCE and neighboring European countries as well.
We are not talking about the historical dynamics of Ukraine's language challenges. It has zero to do with this current discussion. What we were talking about is the Parliament's February 2014 adoption of a bill repealing/abolishing the 2012 language law, which was deemed not only by Poroshenko, but by the interim president, the Hungarian/Bulgarian/Romanian/Polish/Russian states, by the OSCE and those of Ukraine's minority group who were aware of the Parliament's action last February; to be a mistake.
Even Tymoshenko, the staunch *pro-west* political head voiced her support to the 2012 Language law.
You also keep bringing and labelling anything Yanukovich to continue with your narrative of assigning everything wrong in Ukraine today to him, including this particular law. You're wrong there, too I'm sorry to say.
A synopsis:
Implementation
The bill was to come into force only after it was signed by Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych and the Chairman of Parliament. But the Chairman of Parliament Volodymyr Lytvyn tendered his resignation on 4 July 2012. However, the Verkhovna Rada twice held votes of confidence in the speaker, and did not accept his resignation. On 31 July Lytvyn signed the law. The bill was signed by President Yanukovych on 8 August 2012. The law came into force on 10 August 2012.
Since then various Ukrainian cities and regions have declared Russian a regional language in their jurisdictions, these being the municipalities of Odessa, Kharkiv, Kherson, Mykolaiv, Zaporizhia, Sevastopol, Dnipropetrovsk, Luhansk and Krasny Luch; and the Oblasts of Odessa, Zaporizhia, Donetsk, Kherson, Mykolaiv and Dnipropetrovsk. Hungarian has been made a regional language in the town of Berehove in Zakarpattia Oblast, Moldovan in the village of Tarasivtsi (Chernivtsi Oblast), and Romanian in the village of Bila Tserkva; also in Zakarpattia Oblast. These languages will now be used in city/Oblast administrative office work and documents. As of September 2012 there were no plans for such bilingualism in Kiev.
Chairmen of the Supreme Council of Crimea Volodomyr Konstantinov stated in March 2013 that the August 2012 law had changed nothing in Crimea.
Proposals for Repeal and Revision
On February 23, 2014, the second day after the flight of Viktor Yanukovich, while in a parliamentary session, a deputy from the "Batkivshchina" party, Vyacheslav Kyrylenko, moved to include in the agenda a bill to repeal the 2012 law "On the principles of the state language policy". The motion was carried with 86% of the votes in favor--232 deputies in favor vs 37 opposed against the required minimum of 226 of 334 votes. The bill was included in the agenda, immediately put to a vote with no debate and approved with the same 232 voting in favor.
The bill would have made Ukrainian the sole state language at all levels.
The attempt to repeal the 2012 law "On the principles of the state language policy" was met with great disdain in Crimea and Southern and Eastern Ukraine, provoking waves of protests against the Maidan installed government ultimately culminating with the Crimean crisis.
Passage of the repeal bill was met with regret by the Secretary-General of the Council of Europe. The OSCE High Commissioner on National Minorities expressed concern over possible further unrest. The bill was also criticized by the Ambassador for Human Rights of the Russian foreign ministry. Bulgarian and Romanian foreign ministers evaluated it as a step in the wrong direction, and the Greek foreign minister expressed disappointment. The Hungarian foreign ministry expressed serious concerns, noting that the decision "could question the commitment of the new Ukrainian administration towards democracy". The Polish foreign minister called it a mistake.
After urgently ordering a working group to draft a replacement law on February 27, acting President Oleksandr Turchynov vetoed the repeal bill on 28 February.
On 7 April 2014 former BYuT leader Yulia Tymoshenko stated she supported the 2012 language law.
I can understand your aversion to anything Russian/Soviet due to your first hand experience and knowledge of it from Ukraine's lenses. I can accept your reluctance to accept any responsibility and culpability on the part of Ukraine for many of the ills it has suffered through, and is suffering upon today. I can even understand and accept your refusal to answer my previous questions dealing with this particular subject as I presume it sheds a little darker light on Ukraine's present position.
I would've also understood the Parliament's actions to *amend* this law instead of solely repealing it for the sake of establishing Ukrainian as the state language but not eliminate bilingualism in the affected regions.
What I will NOT understand and accept is you trying to tell me red is black.What I will not accept is you telling me truths which you have gleaned from internet searches rather than real life experience.
Ukraine is not a republic. It is an oligarchic kleptocracy. Yanukovych would not have fled office had he retained the backing of powerful oligarchs. Had you read some of the links I posted in the past, by Ukrainian academics, experts on Ukraine, living in Ukraine, you would have realized this. Most of those articles discussed his falling from favour with the oligarchs who supported him, and they were written before Euromaidan.
I provided you the links to Ukraine's constitution. The president fled office. Once he abandoned his office, he officially resigned, then, after he fled office, revoked that resignation. He also was impeached, although that is more controversial. In all 3 constitutions, Yanukovych's resignation is enough for him to be removed from office. There is nothing which states if he revokes his resignation, he regains office.
We don't actually know what Poroshenko stated. All you have provided is a headline from an interview, which is an editor's interpretation of what Poroshenko stated. I'd like to read his actual words.
Russian was never banned. All that occurred was the Rada attempted to revoke its status as a regional language. And, the reason the legislation was overturned was to ensure Ukrainian remained the sole official language of a country where over 80% of the population claims Ukrainian as its official language.
Now, you can say history doesn't matter, but it does. On independence, less than half of Ukrainians spoke Ukrainian as their daily language, particularly in the cities. The reason the majority of Ukrainians now can speak Ukrainian is precisely because of those language laws. Imagine! A country where parliamentarians wish to enact laws to ensure their native tongue is the primary language of a country which is over 80% Ukrainian. Quelle horreur!!
Your entire rebuttal to his nonsense looks like it was written by a scholar and should put the entire matter to rest. I doubt if any published scholars in the field could do better than that! Spasibo.
Sadly wise men don't need advice and fools never heed it; so one of the village fools will likely be a long shortly to write some more inane drivel meant to distract the uneducated masses from reality. :popcorn:
Your entire rebuttal to his nonsense looks like it was written by a scholar and should put the entire matter to rest. I doubt if any published scholars in the field could do better than that! Spasibo.
Sadly wise men don't need advice and fools never heed it; so one of the village fools will likely be a long shortly to write some more inane drivel meant to distract the uneducated masses from reality. :popcorn:
An example of languages in Ukraine...
Your entire rebuttal to his nonsense looks like it was written by a scholar and should put the entire matter to rest. I doubt if any published scholars in the field could do better than that! Spasibo.
Sadly wise men don't need advice and fools never heed it; so one of the village fools will likely be a long shortly to write some more inane drivel meant to distract the uneducated masses from reality.
:applaud:
Agree 100% :clapping:
Wrong. Ukraine is a republic. Look it up.
Power of the people prevails and rule both by suffrage of its elected leader and governed by its constitution. It is a unitarian republican state. The rampant corrupt practices of its elected leaders and elite may define its existence by many as kleptocratic, but it doesn't diminish the fact it is a republic. Ukraine People's Republic / Ukraine National Republic.
Two types of democracies as defined by Montesquieu, where the people have a share in rule - and/or in aristocracies/oligarchies, where only some of the people share in rule; as both republican forms of government.
Ukraine's Constitution had been discussed at length here way before your provision. There's nothing in Ukraine's constitution's article for removal of the president was exercised legally in Yanu's ousting.
He didn't resign, he was framed. The state displayed a blatant lack of rule of law in the coup and it issued a warrant of arrest for allegations he had nothing to do with - the Kiev massacre. Your denial doesn't alter this reality. Kiev, or any democratic state, had an obligation to protect it's statesman until and unless proven guilty of criminalities. Kiev didn't do that, so they are far more culpable to illegal activity than the accused. Such are norm protocol of illegal and UNCONSTITUTIONAL takeovers.
I do. You read the same thing I did. Unless you'd like to state Le Figaro is heavily involved in silly propaganda. There hasn't been any ounce of refraction from the printed publication. It highlighted what was supposed to be the core issue.
It would have been had the president signed the bill and turned it into law. It would've removed/banned all minority regional languages in all state levels and replaces it with Ukrainian. You can argue that all you want, that's exactly what it is.
If you were referring to the 2014 bill, then you're wrong. The bill was to make Ukrainian as a sole language in all levels of state. Period. As far as I can tell, there had been no attempt for bilingualism in the affected regions in that bill.
Tymoshenko was a major component to the Association Agreement. Many even wrote this stipulation (her release from prison) played a major role to Yanu's reluctance to sign the agreement.
Me, too. But Tymoshenko was the US's pm (puppet master). The State thought, even back in 2006, Poroshenko was a shady character - which is hyterical in itself knowing they're decking their cards on Tymoshenko. That's why they wanted her released from prison so she would have plenty of time to get tuned in in time for the 2015 election campaign. But...the rest if history and she wound up with what, less than 2% off the early election?
BTW, I'm actually beginning to like Petro myself.
Exactly. The 2012 Language law was well received by the EU's purview and preference. It had great implication in EU's economic proposal to Ukraine as it was widely viewed as democratic thing to do. So you can cite that Yanu's had other personal/internal/political interest in drafting of that law, you can. But the bottom line is, it was reviewed, discussed, debated, wrestled and punched each other for but eventually passed.
Welcomed and praised not only by Russia, but Ukraine's new landlord. Which is why the 2014 Parliament's decision to pass a bill to repeal this particular law became a major cause of instability, or as Poroshenko said - caused a huge resonance.
I am not mistaken of anything.
That's what you're having a difficult time comprehending. The genesis of this subject was brought up due to the context of Poroshenko's interview. The fact of the matter is, REGARDLESS of the details of the Parliament's abolition bill, and what it ultimately will or will not do to the 2012 language law; the very act of passing to abolish the 2012 language law was DEEMED by all parties previously mentioned as a mistake and largely delegated as the focal point of the Crimean crisis and the present separatists' conflict. It did, as Poroshenko exclaimed, caused a huge resonance. Just as the Security Council of Europe, the interim president and the European states including Russia cited.
What's on Russian TV have *ZERO* significance in this particular discussion.
You keep infusing your own little bit of irrelevant factoids in an attempt to cloud the issue. Nice try. That may work with the board's chihuahuas, doesn't work with me.
I do believe and convinced, based on previously *classified* cables between Ukraine, the Ukrainian US Embassy and the State Department; that there had been planning going on in the ultimate inclusion of Ukraine's eventual NATO membership. Which, considering the implied consequence of such from happening, is a serious mistake, period. Russia, as the US is, also have a right to determine what event represents a threat to their national security.
Your *real life experience* living in Canada while all those things were going on in Ukraine? Yeah right. Unless you'd like to convince us all you were present and central to the passing of the bill earlier this year and was there in its' aftermath. If you cannot say this, then counselor you're gleaning the net as much as I. At least I was able to offer you Le Figaro. You couldn't even find it. Heck, there's a darn good chance you didn't even know this bill passing occurred in the Parliament early this year (since you never made mention of it), likely even Strlitz, and 'gleaned' the internet for it yourself only after I mentioned it.
So no, I maintain red ain't black, baby.
My "real life" is walking the streets and hearing what language is spoken. Same with the Ukrainians here. The idea that Russian is in any way threatened in Ukraine is ludicrous.
Bo, just to add my own experience into this mix...
there was a time while I was there that people were very angry at the thought of the government trying to make them speak Ukrainian. My brother in law being one of them. Not that Russian stopped being spoken, but there was some that did think they were being threatened when it came to speaking Russian.
I'm speaking years ago of course.
That doesn't surprise me. However, there was never any forcing to speak Ukrainian, although I can appreciate that some would have that perception, particularly if they had any recollection of the Soviet period.
I also thought grade schools were supposedly going to all Ukrainian, at one time, which was on of the reasons my brother in law was mad (or maybe I misunderstood him).
LMAO! Sources considered.
irrelevant crap . . . pro-Russia propo . . . Putin . . . Yanukovich is a hero . . . blah blah insult, insult, insult
This, from the village idiot. Hey pal, do you think if Mexicans in Texas suddenly claimed they were being discriminated against and forced to speak English, and then Mexico decided to provide them with heavy arms to rape, pillage and plunder -- do you think that the US government would negotiate with them and give them some sort of autonomy and not lock them up for life as terrorists?
You truly are a complete moron.
Do you also think that Ukrainians living in Russia have a right to demand that the Russian government operate services, etc for them in Ukrainian, and that if they don't Ukraine has a right to send heavy weapons into Russia, and demand NuevoUkraina or some such similar nonsense?
Moron. *speak* *write* *leave no doubt*
I do hope Poroshenko represents, and hold if so, what should be a great thing for Ukraine and exactly what that country needs...Thanks for posting the link. This appears to be something the pro separatists and Russians might accept, if it can pass the Ukrainian parliament passes it. Regardless it is a step in the right direction as it could create a temporary fragile peace which could grow stronger with some time. Much to the chagrin of many here, both countries could move forward with a bit of a win. I'll be curious to hear the reasoning of the people who oppose the proposal.
"...KIEV, UKRAINE — President Petro Poroshenko on Monday proposed a series of major concessions to end the uprising by pro-Russian rebels in restive eastern Ukraine, offering the separatists a broad amnesty and special self-governance status for territories they occupy.
The proposal also includes protections for the Russian language and would allow the separatist-controlled regions to elect their own judges, create their own police forces and cultivate deeper ties to Russia — while remaining part of Ukraine."
Article here (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/heavy-fighting-between-ukrainian-forces-and-pro-russian-rebels-over-the-weekend/2014/09/15/9f522a6c-1a27-4f3a-8c6a-5432c92911a3_story.html)
Thanks for posting the link. This appears to be something the pro separatists and Russians might accept, if it can pass the Ukrainian parliament passes it. Regardless it is a step in the right direction as it could create a temporary fragile peace which could grow stronger with some time. Much to the chagrin of many here, both countries could move forward with a bit of a win. I'll be curious to hear the reasoning of the people who oppose the proposal.
I do hope Poroshenko represents, and hold if so, what should be a great thing for Ukraine and exactly what that country needs...
"...KIEV, UKRAINE — President Petro Poroshenko on Monday proposed a series of major concessions to end the uprising by pro-Russian rebels in restive eastern Ukraine, offering the separatists a broad amnesty and special self-governance status for territories they occupy.
The proposal also includes protections for the Russian language and would allow the separatist-controlled regions to elect their own judges, create their own police forces and cultivate deeper ties to Russia — while remaining part of Ukraine."
Article here (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/heavy-fighting-between-ukrainian-forces-and-pro-russian-rebels-over-the-weekend/2014/09/15/9f522a6c-1a27-4f3a-8c6a-5432c92911a3_story.html)
Putting a stop to this conflict is a best place to begin.
The chihuahua pack arrives. LMAO!
“I am often told that I should write a book after the war ends. Well, I need to survive the war first. And second, to be honest, I don’t have a clear idea yet about what such a book could possibly be about.We truly live in a parallel universe compared with the life I left behind in Kyiv, complete with its own rhythm of daily life. It seems far too ordinary in its own way to write about it. It becomes so mundane in fact that I have to force myself to find subjects that make interesting photography.
For example, there is graffiti on the doors to our rooms that I pass several times a day. Intellectually, I get the concept that all of this is historic and worth recording. I understand, but lack the emotional motivation.
On the other hand, there really is no time to wait for a better occasion during which to write this hypothetical book. I need to be writing now about what is happening in the country. I do have some time these days, and so I will share a few thoughts while here at base camp. We are on training exercises, and no one really can predict how long we will be in this routine, and especially what will happen next.
It is common knowledge that the Ukrainian people themselves are supplying both the Ukrainian army and the volunteer Ukrainian military formations with much of what they need. I am not referring to the system of taxation that goes toward the armed forces of the country, but rather a very direct support with money and materiel. Individuals provide financial resources, along with a wide array of products and items such as bullet proof vests. Then volunteers offer their vehicles to transport all this outpouring of goodwill from the smallest of Ukrainian villages, often at great physical risk to their own lives.
I would like to give you a glimpse into the subjective experience of receiving this generosity from our point of view, beyond what it means to see the steady stream of supply vehicles coming and going from our bases.
There is a small village along the border of Dnipropetrovsk and Donetsk oblasts. Just as in Kyiv and all throughout the country, you will find many flags flying in this village, as well as blue and yellow painted in prominent locations. Imagine us arriving in town, more like bandits than soldiers because we lack the proper legal status as a recognized military formation. I am armed with a weapon, dressed like a hunter in a uniform sent by Ukrainians in the Diaspora. I wear heavy old boots that I bought eight years ago. (I never had the time get anything else when the vehicle sent for me arrived; so I train in these clumsy things). I would never have dreamt that I would live to see the day when I would be wearing such boots through “hell and high water” and into war. And who would have thought that the winter clothing I bought to get me through the cold months of the Maidan would be used again in a war zone….
So we are in this town, and stop at a store to buy a watch. The clerk is pleasant enough, and by all appearances the owner, with another younger employee. And they recognize me. They don’t associate me with being a journalist, but from seeing me on the internet from videos about the Ukrainian Volunteer Corps. It turns out that people are watching these videos. On another occasion Dmytro Yarosh had been in their store, so they took pictures with him and invited him to come back again. They joke that they forgot to ask him for his business card. We had such a nice conversation with them. Before we left we bought a watch that was worth 140 hryvnia, but they sold it to us for 90. “This is my way of supporting those at the front,” the owner explained. “I won’t regret the loss of money, and besides it would be more important for the soldiers to have socks.”
Then we find the local bazaar, and shop for various little items such as light bulbs and shoe polish. The vendors sell us everything at a big discount. There is an old man standing at the corner. He is in uniform, looking dignified even at his age. He is armed. There are two young men in uniform with him, also carrying weapons. He looks at me, then greets me with a tip of his hat, while the young men salute me. “Who are they?” I ask. “They are our local defense.” The same response comes from those driving vehicles, honking their horns in welcome. Some of the civilian drivers wave at us, eager to show their support. “Good day. I am on your side.” When soldiers from the army pass by we likewise salute each other.
Now of course with all this good there must be a little bad. I need a haircut, as my hair is a mess. I find a small place, which isn’t busy, with three older hair dressers inside. They take one look at my uniform and say (in Russian), “I’m sorry my dear, but we can’t help you, we work by appointment only, and we’re all booked.” It seems more likely to me that someone had warned them not to help us.
I had visions of holding my ground, sitting down in a barber’s chair, placing my handgun on my lap and asking politely, “Kindly cut my hair.” But in the interest of not making a scene, I simply left the shop.
The next place I entered had the appearance of being much more expensive. It was called “Beauty Salon”. The girls who worked there were much younger and more welcoming. They had no problem with me as a customer, and in fact only charged me half the price for my haircut.
That was the common denominator of the day: everywhere we bought what we needed at a discount….And the question heard most often wherever we went: Do you think they will advance this far?” To which we insistently replied, “No they won’t. Not if we can help it.”
The overwhelming majority of people in this little town are Russian speakers. From where they live you can almost see the terrorists in action. So tell me, what are they doing differently, why such a fundamental disparity between life in this town compared with life just a few kilometres to the east? It’s the same country. The main distinction is that here they refused entry to Putin’s armed bandits, while down the road the idiots let them in.
Putin’s attempts to ‘Transnitriarize’ Ukraine are in full accordance with his plans to turn the Ukrainian state into the Kremlin’s obedient and docile puppet. However, the pro-Russian orientation of part of the population in the Ukrainian East did not emerge by itself. It is a direct consequence of intentional work of the Soviet regime, which tried its best to turn the Ukrainians into part of the so-called ‘Soviet people.’
However, it cannot be said that the Soviets managed to achieve this selection fully. The representatives of the land of miners fought for independent Ukraine on Petliura’s side. We need only remember the Black Haydamaky regiment, which included Volodymyr Sosiura. Or the modern Ukrainian supporters Vasyl Stus, Ivan, Leonid and Nadiya Svitlychny and Ivan Dziuba.
Another testament to this are the battalions that were formed on Donetsk lands, which heroically (frequently better than others) fought for the liberation of their lands from Moscow mercenaries.
However, Donetsk and Luhansk, like Crimea, have always been a problem for Kyiv, for various reasons. Russia’s current invasion is a result of Stalin’s and Brezhnev’s selection and russification of Ukraine. Mass import of Russians onto Ukrainian territories and the intentional export and dissimilation of Ukrainian all around endless Russia are bearing their poisonous fruit today
After Kuchma came to power, these oblasts became the most criminalized, where those who did not agree with Sovietization of these territories were simply eliminated, and the Kremlin’s policies and the abundance of Russia media created a strong illusion among the population of Donbas and Luhansk oblast that they are once more back to the USSR or, at least, in neighboring Russia.
Essentially, there are enough unsatisfied people in all countries, however only Moscow, with its massive military support, was able to turn part of these unsatisfied peoples (of which, in reality, there are not so many in these regions) into terrorists.The future scholars of the last period during ‘Developed Putinism,’ when examining the history of Putin’s actions under the microscope, will wonder: Why did he ever crawl to Ukraine with his ‘Russian World’? He could have sat quietly in the Kremlin, robbed Russia and told stories on television of how he was working so hard, “chained to the galleys,” for Russia’s good, go to G8 summits and not create any problems for anyone.
The historians will also wonder why Russian elites allowed Putin to invade Ukrainian Crimea, execute the mad idea of a mythical ‘Novorossiya’ at any cost, and provoke the Russian Federation’s fallback into the third world.
However, Putin is not at all worried about the fact that Russia, which exists solely on account of the sale of its energy resources, may pay a very high price for ‘#Crimeaisours’ and ‘Novorossiya.’
Obviously, the putinists have had this big national state ‘Russian idea’ for a very long time, and its presentation under the guise of the ‘Russian world’ became the apotheosis of the campaign which aimed to destroy Ukrainian statehood. . .
Essentially, Ukraine’s problems with Donbas and Luhansk oblast only emerged because there were people living there who, after the fall of the USSR, continued to stubbornly lead the Soviet way of life.
And the striving of part of the population to return back to Soviet yesterday, with surrogate vodka for 3,12 and sausage made of God-only-knows-what for 2,20, was constantly supported by Soviet movies from the 1930-1970’s, which are full of primitive Communist ideology, and contemporary low-rate Russian TV series like Menty (Cops) or Dalnoboyshchiki(Truckers).It is become absolutely obvious that the Party of Regions and its Donetsk leader prepared the springboard for Russian intervention in Ukraine. And had Maidan-2 been delayed by even half a year, Ukraine would have had no chance to protect its sovereignty.
Therefore, after Yanukovich fled Ukraine, Putin decided to hit the most vulnerable part of the Ukrainian society – Donetsk and Luhansk, having provoked a situation that led to a tragedy in this region through his numerous agents on location.
Meanwhile, Donetsk has always been a decoration for those who owned it. Proletariat decorations for a billionaire who got his assets from non-proletariat work. Electoral decorations for the Party of Regions, who pretended that it has over a hundred percent support in Donetsk.
And now Donbas has become a decoration for Russian terrorists. Having turned into a theatrical stage in the hands of the renegades who are using the Ukrainian Near East for their own interests.
Moscow is also waging informational war against Ukraine. It is no secret that essentially this is a war of emotions. In an informational war, the enemy doesn’t make you bleed out. They make you feel negative emotions: desperation, fear, hatred and disgust.
It is important to the enemy for all these emotions to work against Ukrainians, against their country and against their future. Ideally, the enemy would want for them to spread this mental disease all around their ranks, unwittingly aiding it.
Therefore Ukrainians could afford emotions during times of peace. Now it is important to stop thinking in categories of a peaceful life, as Ukraine is in full-scale war with a nuclear empire.
Whether Ukrainians want this war or not, this nuclear empire does not ask them. And it is impossible to retreat. 23 years after the fall of the USSR, the war for Ukrainian independence began. This means that the economy and the politics of civilian life are in the past. This means that the economy and politics are aimed at victory: the preservation of the independence of the Ukrainian nation.
With his increase of the escalation in Ukraine, Putin is making a choice between two options he finds acceptable: partial control over all of Ukraine or total control over part of Ukraine.
However, he and his closest associates have finally started to realize that their ‘Russian World’ caprice cannot be imposed by them. The majority of Ukrainians will never consent to this.
Therefore Putin, who has been betting on partial control over all of Ukraine, will most likely bet on total control over part of Ukraine. Though he simply doesn’t get the fact that Ukrainians reject both of these options categorically.
However, he is trying to show Ukrainian leaders by all means possible that the ‘tag’ on the Ukrainian ‘kingdom’ is issued in Moscow. Here he misjudged when measuring Poroshenko by Yanukovich’s standards. While (Yanukovich) was mentally and in his interests fully immersed in the ‘Soviet-Russian’ world. Petro Poroshenko is strictly oriented towards Western values.
It is obvious that ‘DNR’ and ‘LNR’ projects have no support in the Donbas and Luhansk oblasts. The recall of the main ideologists and harbingers of terrorism in this region, Girkin and Bezler, and then the ‘people’s governor of Donbas’ and head of the mobilization headquarters of the ‘DNR Defense Ministry,’ former neo-Nazi Pavel Gubarev, show they have already done their job. Putin removed these failed marionettes and took the reigns into his own hands. However, this cannot change the situation, as Russia is fighting against the Ukrainian nation, which does not want to return to any form of the former Soviet Union, under any circumstances…
Thanks for posting the link. This appears to be something the pro separatists and Russians might accept, if it can pass the Ukrainian parliament passes it. Regardless it is a step in the right direction as it could create a temporary fragile peace which could grow stronger with some time. Much to the chagrin of many here, both countries could move forward with a bit of a win. I'll be curious to hear the reasoning of the people who oppose the proposal.
Fathertime!
In an interview on Russian state television, Andrei Purgin, a rebel leader in Donetsk region, rejected "the political embraces of Ukraine." But he added, "We will study this framework law closely and look for points of commonality for further talks." He said the separatists are ready to discuss "economic, sociocultural issues and security."Do you really think Ukraine will win anything here? Seriously?
Let me explain something more as you all fall hook, line and silnk to the trolls...
Let me explain something more as you all fall hook, line and silnk to the trolls...
1. Ukrainian was not always oppressed in the Soviet Union. There were spells when pro-Russian communists were at power but pro-Ukrainian ones would take over sooner or later. When the latter came to power, Ukrainian was literally forced on everyone in Ukraine: officials had to speak Ukrainian only, everything had to be only in Ukrainian; it happened in the 1920s, in the 1960s. When the former ruled, Ukrainian was not oppressed but was not imposed, was not promoted and had no advantage over Russian. At school, in the 1980s, I did not study Ukrainian because I was Russian so I was exempt from it per my family wish. That meant I still had to attend lessons but was not required to do anything and got no marks. As a child I was very happy. Now I am not too happy about that and must admit that my grandparents were too much pro-Russian and as a result anti-Ukrainian, antisemitic, etc. Yet I do not remember any oppressions against Ukrainian or Ukrainian-speaking people. Perhaps I was a child and did not notice many things.
2. Russian is de facto the second language of Ukraine. 100% Ukrainians understand it, 99% are fluent, about 50% speak it daily as the primary language, about 30 to 40% consider it their mother tongue. Of course, it varies from west to east.
3. After Ukraine had become independent, nationalists were able to make Ukrainian the only state language. But it is wrong and misleading. Ukraine must have two state languages. The loss of the Crimea and half of the Donbass has not taught the idiots anything but if there had been two state languages in Ukraine, both Russian and Ukrainian, it would have been much more difficult for the Kremlin and Putin to start the unrest. The language issue was their strongest point.
4. The introduction of Russian as the second language is not going to harm Ukrainian. Those who spoke it before will speak it as usual. Look: I only speak Russian. Before 2014 I would not speak Ukrainian because it was kind of imposed on me, although I had been changing my attitude since 1992 and was more open to Ukrainian later. Now I wish I could speak it more and try to speak it when I can (although I sound funny confusing words all the time like the previous president). Yet I still speak mainly Russian because of many reasons. And the reasons are more important than any laws the government can adopt. So, eventually it does not matter if Ukrainian is the only language in Ukraine or it is both Russian and Ukrainian. Those who prefer to speak Ukrainian will go on. Those who speak Russian will speak Russian. At that, we all understand each other and never have issues: I am happy if they speak Ukrainian to me, they do not mind if I speak Russian to them. Russian being the second language in Ukraine is not going to compromise or oppress Ukrainian. Let me remind that in some European countries there are several languages that co-exist and none of them oppresses the other. Everybody knows about Switzerland with 4 languages, but few people know that in Finland only 5% speak Swedish but it is still the second language. The stupid claim of Ukrainian nationalists that Ukraine must speak Ukrainian, and the introduction of Russian will kill Ukrainian does not hold water: Finland speaks Finnish and Swedish and Finnish has not died because of it. Finally, they seem to forget or pretend to forget that the Ukrainian state was called Rus in the Middle Ages.
5. By the way, Russia (Rossiya) was Muscovy then. They kind of stole the name and the language from Ukraine. To be frank, Russians are not even Russian. They are an Asian people who adopted the language of the neighbor. History knows such examples. Half of Europe speaks a Roman language because the Roman empire was there, although originally not all Europeans were Romans.
I enjoy your reports. Your style is scholarly, and seemingly balanced, even admitting that Ukraine has contributed to the conflict because of how the language issue was handled. We have the Tea Party in America, and it seems you have a group or two just as radical.
Really Gator, you see the Tea Party as radical?
LMAO
I guess you are one of the few who doesn't see them as radicals. Even the Tea Partiers around here are proud of their radicalism. Goldwater would have been proud of them.
Think about it Muzh and take your time but, what on the Tea Party platform is not supported by the constitution? There's nothing radical about the TP other than with whispers from both the left and the right that they are radical. It's a ground swell of folks supporting the constitution and the only people that don'r like the idea are the Democrats and the Republicans. Doesn't that seem a bit odd to you?
Good. I'm glad you finally admitted you were wrong all along.
You just described Libertarians.
Close but no. I am a libertarian. I do not consider myself a TP'er although I do agree with much their platform. Rather than parrot your party line, look a bit closer at the TP platform and make up your own mind
Did it already.
BTW, I don't have a party unless you bring the beer. ;D
No, she's been right all along. followed by some really idiotic blather
History
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NS2Z2-UFptU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NS2Z2-UFptU)
try this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NS2Z2-UFptU
Really Gator, you see the Tea Party as radical?
You and your win-win scenarios.
I know you can't see past your nose so I'll try to use small words for you to understand.
This agreement will create a frozen conflict. If you don't know what that is, allow me:
In international relations, a frozen conflict is a situation in which active armed conflict has been brought to an end, but no peace treaty or other political framework resolves the conflict to the satisfaction of the combatants.
Now, take a wild guess who will be manipulating this frozen conflict. Three guesses and the first two don't count. I will not ask you why because it would be a sorry sight to see a man's head explode.
For exhibit A, we have:
Do you really think Ukraine will win anything here? Seriously?
Only cowards would see this as a win-win.
Did it already.
BTW, I don't have a party
Close but no. I am a libertarian. I do not consider myself a TP'er although I do agree with much their platform. Rather than parrot your party line, look a bit closer at the TP platform and make up your own mind
Yes, but not crackpots.
Regarding your philosophy, I admire the general concept of the libertarian party, particularly the concept of self-reliance. Yet the devil is in the details and some important parts of the platform seem unworkable IMO.
Radical generally infers crackpots in this context. It's a sad state of affairs for the country when those that adhere and wish the constitution of the land be enforced are referred as radical. Wouldn't you agree? Kind of like if you are told a lie long enough it tends to become the truth.
It's workable but, would take some work, indeed. I tend to think it wouldn't be as difficult as what we are doing today. If we accept the idea to not violate the constitution instead of making it acceptable and blase' to violate it, we could.
Grand statement, and very appropriate considering that today is Constitution Day. Are you surprised by my knowing such?
Tea Party is decentralized, giving rise in some locales to political candidates too radical for my way of thinking.
PBS did an interview with Stephen Cohen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_F._Cohen) about 10 days after the Kiev coup. Interesting viewpoint, whether we agree or otherwise, on Putin, Ukraine and Georgia...
Actually you do have a party....it is called LA RAZA..
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_2avSTPNL5M/TsoVLM4ftRI/AAAAAAAAAPQ/lUOv7N7HH4k/s1600/la_raza_get_out2_xlarge-206x300.gif)
The Tea Party has been successfully stigmatized by people like Muhz.
Fathertime!
Stephen Cohen is the illegitimate son of Walter Duranty.
Kind'a have something in common with Obama, then...
But yes, Stephen is also demonized all over by the western media. He was/is a close personal friend of Gorbachev, was an adviser to Pres. HW Bush, dislikes Slick Willy for his NATO ambitions, wrote a few scathing columns earning him as a Putin/Kremlin apologist, etc...
Stephen Cohen was once considered a top Russia historian. Now he publishes odd defenses of Vladimir Putin.
Don't you just hate these high ranking US University alumnus? We even have one residing at the White House right now. They shouldn't be allowed outside much less continue to spread their demonic venom in such places like Princeton and NY University.
It's almost as bad as our list of politicians, actively serving or otherwise.
Anyway...I'm sure Stephen would have something critical to say to the latest development in DC about approving that we arm and financially supportAl Qaedathe Syrian rebels in their fight to ousta democratically elected president of a sovereign nationISIS out of Syria.
Kinda?
The man hates the Nigr. Accuses him of treason.
Now, you are being a little harsh about the western media. Demonizing an ultra-left journalist? C'mon, be serious.
Accuracy in Media (http://www.aim.org/aim-column/putins-big-lie-against-ukraine/) has exposed the man as not being totally honest.
Slate (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2014/07/stephen_cohen_vladimir_putin_s_apologist_the_nation_just_published_the_most.html) is not as benign. They go for the jugular.
Keep in mind, these two outfits would be considered by many conservatives to be on the liberal side.
The fact Cohen believed in so called perestroika and glasnost proves he is a useful idiot.
I enjoy your reports.Thank you. Prejudices are widespread. For some reason, Russians always believed they were the big brother of Ukrainians, although it is the other way around as you can see from the movie map. When Rus was a big state, Moscow did not even exist.
This made we wonder about something. A few RW I met expressed prejudices against Ukrainians. Is such prejudice widespread, and if so, does it contribute to the current conflict?
If you are at all familiar with Ukrainian literary criticism of the period, you would know that all of the intellectuals who flourished during that period, and all the writers, were killed, from about 1927 to 1931. So, once the Revolution was "won", the policy of encouraging Ukrainian was reversed.History is history. As someone once said, if all lies are removed from history it does not mean only truth will remain. Nothing may remain. I speak mainly of my experience living in Soviet Ukraine in the 1980s. (As for the 1970s, I remember very little).
So, I think you need to look at this more broadly.
Their leaders were the bastard princes of Kiev Rus'.Exactly. The Russian separatism is deeply rooted in history. Russian bastards only know how to do something bad.
Speaking of nigger...I'm not sure why Muzh keeps referring to that term when he speaks of Obama. Obama is a hybrid, just as many Americans are these days. He is, if any, a mulato not a nigger.
Because you like to appear racist and a moron?
You know why, you sly dog. ;)
Don't you just hate these high ranking US University alumnus? We even have one residing at the White House right now. They shouldn't be allowed outside much less continue to spread their demonic venom in such places like Princeton and NY University.It seems clear to me that forcing/enabling the ouster of Assad is very high on priority list for the USA for some screwed up reason. Long term I'd expect the mission to create more problems (indirect and direct) for us then it solves.
It's almost as bad as our list of politicians, actively serving or otherwise.
Anyway...I'm sure Stephen would have something critical to say to the latest development in DC about approving that we arm and financially supportAl Qaedathe Syrian rebels in their fight to ousta democratically elected president of a sovereign nationISIS out of Syria.
It seems clear to me that forcing/enabling the ouster of Assad is very high on priority list for the USA for some screwed up reason. Long term I'd expect the mission to create more problems (indirect and direct) for us then it solves.
Fathertime!
It seems clear to me that forcing/enabling the ouster of Assad is very high on priority list for the USA for some screwed up reason. Long term I'd expect the mission to create more problems (indirect and direct) for us then it solves.
Fathertime!
Nah, not for viewing in my country (US) it says
$500,000.00 millions dollars to arm and support Al Qaeda to topple over Bashar Asaad. That's much cheaper than what we've invested in Ukraine and we didn't even have to hand out cookies...technically, we're getting a bargain there.
So Assad deserves our sympathy?Why do you draw a conclusion regarding sympathy?
Do you have receipts?
My 1040. I know not all Americans pay taxes. :rolleyes:
Why do you draw a conclusion regarding sympathy?
The USA doesn't have to have sympathy for him, but actively attempting to have him ousted or killed is not our duty.
Fathertime!
You can speak plainly or you can be coy.
$500,000.00 millions dollars to arm and support Al Qaeda to topple over Bashar Asaad. That's much cheaper than what we've invested in Ukraine and we didn't even have to hand out cookies...technically, we're getting a bargain there.
Well you are the one asking strange questions about "sympathy" I have given you a response, if you are dissatisfied that's ok. I thought the question was odd.
Fathertime!
We shouldn't expect the larger nations to abide by rules we impose when we routinely do whatever we want as if we are the judge of the world. I find it remarkable that we would even continue to try to make these demands of others given our own actions.
Fathertime!
Who knows...
Since you are not plain spoken, I will be so on Assad.
I could care less. The bastard killed a lot of my brothers and sisters in Iraq. But ever since the other guy won re-election, I have checked out of US politics altogether. They are on their own and I am going in a different direction. Do I think Assad is more important than pop culture? Sure I do. But right now Assad will not kill my family in Ukraine (or in the US.) We have more important problems like $ 4 ground beef, $ 3 milk and gas. American children who can't read. I am sympathetic to some of your arguments (your less anti-American ones). I put a lot of my life for this country and it breaks my heart that more Americans care about how round Kim Kardasian's a## is compared our national debt or the strength or our dollar, business climate, etc etc etc.
It's painfully obvious 'we couldn't give a rat's arse' what anyone else thinks of our arrogance and silly double standard mentality. That's likely borne out of our *generous attitude* being trumpeted so ignorantly in many sector of our society. Hell, we even declared and warned Iran from going into Iraq to help eliminate ISIS in Iraq as though we have the right to tell them so despite our engagement there. Iran has as much right to aid the Iraqi shi'ites and protecting their (Iran) national security by the threat of ISIS.
I can still remember so many people demonizing the US's foreignforayaffairs until the conflict came knocking on their door. Now they wonder where we are?
We brought the middle east on our doorsteps and looks like they're here for a while. Now we've been trying to get central and eastern Europeans, too.
Do you remember this...?
There's a part of me that believes Obama doesn't want any part of destabilizing Ukraine all along, nor fiddling NATO into that country, but Hillary isn't with him on this...which is likely a huge reason why she quit when Obama got re-elected then declared they have a huge difference when it came to foreign affairs.
I'm sure if it was up to Hillary, we'd already be in this stupid war in Ukraine. That's exactly the same attitude Slick Willy had in Yugoslavia. Hillary was heavily engaged on those embassy cables with Kiev and Poroshenko since she became State Secretary.
Who knows...
...
Had Romney or Hillary been elected who knows what problems would have cropped up, maybe different ones, maybe worse, maybe not. Overall Obama leans towards not intervening, and I like that. So despite the hatred he has received from many, he has made some individual decisions (or non-decisions) that I am also in favor of....
Because you like to appear racist and a moron?
Fathertime!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDxs8YSdBWE
:offtopic:
In light of Scotland's election for its independence...here's bit of a kicker in the US's longstanding fascination with secession (http://news.msn.com/us/exclusive-angry-with-washington-1-in-4-americans-open-to-secession) courtesy of a job well done by our POTUS and our collective DC clowns.
Anger withthe NigrPresident Barack Obama's handling of issues ranging from healthcare reform to the rise of Islamic State militants drives some of the feeling, with Republican respondents citing dissatisfaction with his administration as coloring their thinking.
Putin considers plan to unplug Russia from the internet 'in an emergency'
The Kremlin is considering radical plans to unplug Russia (http://www.theguardian.com/world/russia) from the global internet (http://www.theguardian.com/technology/internet) in the event of a serious military confrontation or big anti-government protests at home, Russian officials hinted on Friday.
'Ceasefire in the Donbas, announced on 5th of September, was violated 480 times' told Yuriy Sergeyev, Ukraine's representative at the meeting of the UN Security Council.
"Every day we register violations of the ceasefire. It was violated 480 times. 100 Ukrainian soldiers were killed and 138 injured," - he said.
Russia did use against the Ukrainian military tactical nuclear weapons. This was confirmed by the Minister of Defence of Ukraine Valeriy Geletey during the return of Ukrainian delegation from Poland.
About this on his Facebook page informed reporters Roman Bochkala.
"In particular, the RF forces struck two strikes of self-propelled mortar 2S4 "Tulip" in Lugansk airport. Precisely for this reason our military left it [airport]. Strikes were so strong that "completely destroyed the building from the fifth floor to the basement"- described the minister.
Were used shells type 3VB4 and 3VB11 of TNT power of two kilotons - that is 2 thousand Kg of TNT.
"If not for "Tulips", we could have been at the airport at least another few months and no one with anything would have made us leave" - said Geletey explaining reasons for withdrawal from Lugansk.
According Bochkaly, the Minister said that there is reasonable apprehension to think that this kind of strikes Russia can apply to Donetsk airport.
"The airport can be exchanged for Novoazovsk or other locality. Regarding tactical nuclear weapons, its use violates the international agreement on disarmament. In 1987 a treaty was signed between the USSR and the USA on the elimination of intermediate and short-range. Upon Soviet Union breakup tactical nuclear warheads were shipped to Russia from the republics, which became independent, including Ukraine ", - the report says.
Weapons should have been destroyed, but Russia did not. Considerable part of arsenal is in the mode of long-term preservation.
The reference is placed in the message of Bochkaly contains more detailed information about what kind exactly nuclear weapons Russia is using against Ukraine, where it is stored and what its inventory.
Russia has used nuclear weapons against ATO - Geletey
Russia has used nuclear weapons against ATO - Geletey
(in best traditions of Ukrainian propaganda):
OK, my contribution in exposure of Russian aggression. Russian self-propelled mortar "Tulip" shells Lugansk (in best traditions of Ukrainian propaganda):
(http://2000.net.ua/ai/7/77/77834/f1-1137-990x665.jpg)
New hit Russischen Soldaten, Schweinen, Occupanten!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW55K1iegFY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW55K1iegFY)
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/19/vladimir-putin-plan-unplug-russia-internet-emergency-kremlin-moscow
That's going to destroy the livelihood of all those young RW relying on the income from corresponding/chatting with western men!
Gangster's paradise. Anyone who read that article want to defend the DNR/LNR?
More on life in the terrorist paradise -:shock: :applause:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/an-orwellian-nightmare-for-pro-ukrainians-in-rebel-held-east/2014/09/24/1bc10b94-4a70-4419-aceb-16e10d92528a_story.html#
Girls like soldiers of Novorussia:
(http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/nikitskij/31749522/280188/280188_1000.jpg)
Two blondes on opposite sides of the civil war. First one is an Ukrainian journalist Olena Bilozerskaya, works for Right Sector. Second one is unknown rebel activist.
(http://www.szona.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/%D0%9E%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B0-%D0%91%D1%96%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%B0.jpg)
(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BrStlJyIUAAqU80.jpg)
Girls like soldiers of NovorussiaHave a glimpse at the girls’ future:
Have a glimpse at the girls’ future:
....
Death to Russian Nazi occupants and collaborators!
I'm sure they have different view of their future. Your slogans vs. their guns, who will win? :)
Ekaterina Gubareva, the wife of prominent leader of rebels.
(http://voenpro.ru/img2/images/ekaterina-gubareva-doneck-imeet-pravo-vybora%20%282%29.jpg)
Women militia in Lisichansk (Donetsk region):
(http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/ivan777lapshin/53164959/1053849/1053849_900.jpg)
For reality deprived Belvis:
How to survive in the occupied territory?
(http://www.informator.su/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/d07abcd252c372cff1d1a5878e7094db-1728x800_c.jpg)
Special correspondent of INFORMATOR returned from the East Ukraine.
His task was to investigate the lives of citizens who remained on the other side of the front. The journalist has collected a lot of material that passed on to our resource - shelling one area, turning off the water in the other, the approach of Russian armored vehicles. All that we have been receiving directly from the scene. Today, after returning "from the other side" he told about life of Ukrainians, system of government, unemployment, mobilization of DNR and LNR, and much more. Reading below, it is hard to believe that all of this happening now, not somewhere in the distant African country, but close by to us, just a few hundred kilometers away...
First, the problems started with the delivery of products. Prices soared. Electricity and water periodically were disappearing, and in the territory of LNR many areas have become cut off from these benefits. Companies and firms began mass closing. Kilometers long column of trucks stood in line for weeks at checkpoints - the owners of factories were taking everything of value from the zone ATO.
When everything only started, locals were not too afraid of the people in masks and with St. George ribbons. Last behaved harshly, but did not touch civilians. Everyone learned - places where there are people in masks better to bypass by the tenth road. After all, verification's, hour interrogations, searches made it clear that civilians are not only residents, but also always under suspicion by militants, often at gunpoint. Not once one or the other neighbor did not return home, because was not able to cross next checkpoint, and did not convinced "militia" that he does not care about the war. Over time, the body of the unfortunate found on the outskirts of the city with signs of torture. Although there were positive aspects to the public too. Occasionally some of the commanders announced expropriation and allow residents of his controlled district to rob a shop, supermarket or even a bank. In those days, on the street occurred celebration, there were calls for war and shooting in the air.
(http://www.informator.su/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/3804005-1.jpg)
But gradually the situation is exacerbated. One by one, closed shops. Problems began with bread. In the evenings the streets were immersed in complete darkness, only in some places where lit bonfires burning by militia. People stood in queues for drinking water, which was brought by truck. To bathe went to the river. And for food families sent 'messengers' to nowhere. Paying duty at each checkpoint, these brave souls returned to feed the family.
(http://www.informator.su/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/2.jpg)
Militants stopped being soft to the public. From all was demanded the military fee. For war were taken away selected vehicles of the population. Mostly these were expensive cars. At the beginning, explained that selected from rich ones "on terms". But eventually began to take away not only from rich, and no one was going to explain anything anymore. From time to time broke into various houses to arrest "fascist junta agents." In such case all possessions were taken away. People even often returned alive, but been robed to the skin. These "raids" with time became more frequent. So much so that in each bloke of flats was detected agent of "junta" that was figured out by this or that local commander. Would come minibus and militants without further ceremonies would load possessions of "agent."
(http://www.informator.su/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/DNR-Donetsk-segodnya.jpg)
The worst thing began with the mobilization into the ranks of DNR. Masked men were taking all the men into militia units. It looked like a real hunt for people that often ended in gunfire. In most cases hunted down "volunteers" were not seen anymore by family. Only occasionally came information that someone has been seen in the trenches during Ilovajskij, and the someone else - body loaded on truck along with other victims at Starobyesheva. On the streets appeared women with printed photos of husbands and sons, they desperately hung flyers on the walls, and even asked passersby. But then they began to be chased by the Russian military, and flyers disappeared, along with the women.
Many from large cities run away to the village, others in contrary moved to the city. Unknown where it was safer. In cities exacerbated the crisis of food. But there though [civilians] could appeal to some kind of authorities. In villages people were totally vulnerable. Began to disappear not only men but also girls. To avoid criticism, raped by militants were killed and disposed away from the villages. Then the militants no longer were afraid of criticism. Rapes became more common, and murders [of raped victims] and disposal of their bodies less common.
Although the military administration still took care of the general reputation because particularly brutal crimes have been investigated, and those responsible indicatively shot for the population to see that the law and justice exist. One fighter, who was charged with the massacre of a family of local residents were tied to a pole. Crime was really terrible - rape of mother and two daughters and the brutal murder of last [two daughters] with grandmother, her husband and two sons. People passing by the pole were urged to beat the maniac with stick stuffed with nails. Some desperate did it, but then people started to avoid that place. After all those who do not agree to mock the maniac were frightened by arrest for complicity. One night on the street hapenned incredible shooting and all thought that ATO forces entered the city. It turned out that it was a group of militants - fellows of convict came to rescue their colleague. In the morning there were no tied up convict and on the street were a few corpses of those who died in the night shooting.
(http://www.informator.su/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/1419568.jpg)
Skirmishes between different groups of militants occur daily. Although often it's just "Strelka" where only rattling of weapons used to threaten each other. Shootings going on for control of various companies, for the harvest of the fields, for checkpoints (a lucrative business), for the warehouses of the food or groceries. When the Russian army entered these attacks became less. But still, there are clashes time to time.
About how live Ukrainians and Ukrainian patriots at all no reason to talk, because of their absence. Even to Russian businessman from Tula difficult to prove that he is not an agent of "junta", if he has an expensive car. So what to say about the unfortunate in whose home were found a portrait of Shevchenko or yellow-blue ribbon. Ukrainians remaining "there" by all the means trying to hide their origins, beliefs and attitudes. Try not to call anyone in the great Ukraine, do not keep in touch with relatives living in the liberated ATO zone.
Recently the situation has reached its critical point. Ruins, military, and with a bit here a bit there trumps - civilians. Towns and villages were deserted. Windows boarded by boards as during the plague. And in the mornings and evenings - shelling and shooting. And no one believes anymore that one day everything was different ...
http://www.informator.su/pravda-pro-dnr-y12aku-ne-hochetsya-znati456111/
Ekaterina Gubareva, the wife of prominent leader of rebels.
(http://voenpro.ru/img2/images/ekaterina-gubareva-doneck-imeet-pravo-vybora%20%282%29.jpg)
OK, next story.
Nastya Pyaterikova, bla bla bla
I'm sure they have different view of their future. Your slogans vs. their guns, who will win?Do you think we have no guns? If we only fought with slogans, Slavyansk would remain in the Nazi hands as well as many other cities that the Muscovy bastards were able to take in the spring when we had no army at all. Just compare the map of the war zone in May and in August.
On August 7, hours after arriving in rebel-controlled Donetsk, in eastern Ukraine (http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/3a243bb4-3a5f-11e4-bd08-00144feabdc0.html?siteedition=uk), Dmytro Potekhin, a civic activist from Kiev, wandered past the Liverpool Hotel, a boutique guest house – now apparently abandoned – where he once stayed with a girlfriend. He took out his camera. That was a big mistake.http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/36e6cb8c-458c-11e4-ab10-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3EfK2aZqY (http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/36e6cb8c-458c-11e4-ab10-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3EfK2aZqY)
A rebel with a machine gun emerged and demanded to see Mr Potekhin’s passport. Spotting Mr Potekhin’s Kiev (http://www.ft.com/indepth/crisis-in-ukraine) registration stamp, the man grabbed him, pulled a bag over his head, and took him into the empty hotel where he was held overnight.
After a brief interrogation the next day, Mr Potekhin was taken to what locals call the “isolator” – the basement of an arts centre near downtown Donetsk (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/737a1874-40aa-11e4-993b-00144feabdc0.html) that separatists have turned into a security base and, in effect, a dungeon.
So began 48 days of what seems scarcely imaginable in 21st-century Europe: forced labour, intimidation and humiliation, as hostage of the Russian-backed separatists who control Ukraine’s southeast corner.
“Porridge and cold soup, if you can call it that, was served about twice a day when time permitted,” said Mr Potekhin, 38. “We slept on the floor, using polystyrene padding as insulation. There were hundreds of us.”
Mr Potekhin’s tale, told to the Financial Times as it accompanied him out of Donetsk after his release this week, shines a light on one of the darker parts of the five-month-old conflict in eastern Ukraine – the extra-judicial abduction (http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/a09e2716-8a69-11e3-ba54-00144feab7de.html?siteedition=uk)of scores of citizens.
Captives find themselves in a shadowy world of gun-toting jailers and security men, at least some of them, according to the rebels themselves, Russian or Russian-linked.
With his outsize “hipster” glasses, Mr Potekhin, the son of a diplomat who served in Ukraine’s embassy in Washington, stood out among the dungeon’s diverse inmates. He works as an activist with non-governmental organisations, such as the US-Ukraine Foundation, teaching non-violent resistance techniques. He took part in Ukraine’s 2004 “Orange” revolution and writes occasional articles.
Mr Potekhin went to Donetsk last month to look into reports that Ukrainian forces were shelling residential areas (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/8bf073b6-163f-11e4-8210-00144feabdc0.html)and planned an opinion piece for a Canadian magazine – activities which apparently aroused rebel suspicions that he was spying for Kiev.
Other hostages ranged from businessmen to drug addicts. Inmates were, according to Mr Potekhin, routinely shaken down for ransoms or “donations”. He saw one local entrepreneur freed after agreeing to buy uniforms for separatist forces.
Many were intimidated into serving as rebel fighters or providing forced labour, such as cleaning streets, digging trenches, helping transport stolen cars and even carrying artillery shells.
Hostages suspected that they were also being used as a human shield, to deter Ukrainian forces from shelling. For weeks they flinched at the constant booms of artillery fire outside, which continued in Donetsk even this week despite a September 5 ceasefire.
With limited access to water and washrooms, prisoners resorted to constructing makeshift toilets.
“Other prisoners were routinely beaten hard,” Mr Potekhin recalled. “We heard them screaming from nearby rooms and saw them come back later, all bloody.”
Mr Potekhin was comparatively well-treated – hit hard on the back of the head only once, he said, and fired at by a rebel guard intending only to intimidate him. He was spared, he speculated, because he was submissive – or possibly an object of curiosity.
He engaged his rebel interrogators in discussion, trying to talk his way out, and his captors into common sense.
“Although they claim to be fighting against Nazis” – who, according to Russian propaganda, have taken over Kiev – “they are themselves like a light version of the Nazis,” Mr Potekhin said. “They’re driven to extreme violence by Russian nationalist views, hatred, and intolerance of all western culture, homosexuals, and Catholics.
“The effect of brainwashing by Russian television is more serious than I could ever have imagined.”
During interrogations, Mr Potekhin was asked about democracy seminars he attended at Stanford University – organised by Michael McFaul, later US ambassador to Moscow (http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/06ddcf7e-8dbf-11e3-ba55-00144feab7de.html?siteedition=uk)– and if western intelligence had recruited him to organise “colour” revolutions. Once, in another building, he was questioned by a man the rebels told him was an officer of Russia’s FSB security service.
Tanya Lokshina, a Human Rights Watch official who has visited Donetsk, said Mr Potekhin’s account matched that of many ex-prisoners. She described their treatment as “war crimes”.
“[The rebels] are actually flaunting humiliation of prisoners, demonstrating their disregard for international law,” she said. “Russia is complicit as it is not using its leverage over the rebels to stop these crimes.”
Russia has denied any connection with the rebels and countered that some of its own journalists were abducted by pro-Kiev forces. Russian media have also said there were abuses by Ukrainian authorities.
Release for Mr Potekhin came suddenly this week, when he was taken to the rebels’ security ministry and freed, wearing a filthy T-shirt and jeans, and a camouflage jacket handed to him by a rebel.
An investigator at the ministry, Mr Potekhin said, claimed his detention had been a “mistake” but urged him to be “objective” in revealing details about his experience.
Phone calls to a rebel investigator involved in Mr Potekhin’s case went unanswered. A Donetsk separatist spokesman declined to comment. “We don’t give information by phone,” he said.
As for Mr Potekhin, he was on a westbound train on Friday evening, heading for his home in Kiev. “My visit to Donetsk,” he said, “was part of my non-violent resistance activity.”
Do you think we have no guns? If we only fought with slogans, Slavyansk would remain in the Nazi hands as well as many other cities that the Muscovy bastards were able to take in the spring when we had no army at all. Just compare the map of the war zone in May and in August.
Their guns against our slogans? You ask who will win? Let’s see.
On the 2nd of May, 2014, when Muscovy thugs attacked a peaceful demonstration in Odessa, they did have guns. We had only slogans and anything we could grasp in the street like a rock or a stick.
As for women, we also have them fighting for Ukraine but it makes no sense to start a contest. I will just remind you that we were able to beat Hitler once with those slogans. We will beat Putin too, even if it takes four years as well. Nazism cannot survive in the world, don’t even hope, be it German or Russian one.
I keep hearing news like this all the time. Don’t worry, Odessa is not going to surrender to the Nazis. We have determination, we have means. I know what I say. Although I am not going to go into details.
Hey Stirlitz, I hear that there are preparations by the FSB to start unrest in Odessa, similar to what happened in Donetsk. Keep your eyes and ears wide open.
I keep hearing news like this all the time. Don’t worry, Odessa is not going to surrender to the Nazis. We have determination, we have means. I know what I say. Although I am not going to go into details.
The US witnessed two Americans beheaded by ISIS and we promptly went after ISIS to correct that wrong to feel *justified and vindicated*.
But then OTOH, we turn around and support a government whose soldiers are doing exactly the same thing to others..
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2751148/Mother-Ukrainian-rebel-hostage-claims-received-head-post-Amnesty-International-says-evidence-war-crimes.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2751148/Mother-Ukrainian-rebel-hostage-claims-received-head-post-Amnesty-International-says-evidence-war-crimes.html)
This stupid, stupid war/conflict need to end and our support of it. The latter hopefully would come much sooner..
It's a dirty proxy war, Muzh...
Why do you believe this is a proxy war? A proxy war would feature a conflict between two small parties on behalf of two superpowers. I see just one superpower taking the proxy role....
This stupid, stupid war/conflict need to end and our support of it. The latter hopefully would come much sooner..
...all I care about for now is get my country out of it's participation in this mess regardless of whatever or whomever is in the muck. Enough.
10-15 years from now Western TV will have commercial ads saying"Visit Ukraine," and modernized Ukrainian industry and agriculture will be busy producing goods for its fellow EU trade partners. The Donbas region will resemble....who knows, perhaps Chechyna. And Crimea will resemble......who knows, perhaps Turkish Cyprus. And Russia......a petro rich North Korea.
Why do you persist in pointing your fingers at the US?
Because US send their retired military to fight against Ukraine. :rolleyes:
http://www.newsweek.com/meet-hunter-american-fighting-ukrainian-separatists-273919
Are you hallucinating, Belvis? One man suddenly becomes the whole "retired military" sent by the US?Hah, I'm not a professional, I'm only a beginner in propaganda business :D
We (the West), at the very time this article/story surfaced, were voicing outrage regarding the ISIS executions and about to declare war on the terrorists/militant group in the Middle East.
Almost on cue images of beheadings and reports of severed heads being 'mailed' to family members by Ukraine nationalist forces start to surface supplied by Ukrainian separatist factions. Not confirmed reports mind you just unsubstantiated claims.
Coincidental? Maybe. However, if I were in charge of GRU disinformation it'd be awful hard to resist developing a story that tried to connect/compare activities by Ukraine nationalists with ISIS seeing as ISIS is the West/NATO/US flavor of the month.
Brass
Why do you believe this is a proxy war? A proxy war would feature a conflict between two small parties on behalf of two superpowers. I see just one superpower taking the proxy role.
The pro-Russian separatists are receiving aid and arms from Russia, and when that was not enough Russia provided enough elite regular troops to stop the Ukrainians.
Here is a crazy idea, maybe the Hongkongese actually want a say in how they are governed. And maybe, just maybe the Ukrainians want to make their own choices about their own country's future!
Not everything has to be a US plot you know.
Russian State Media Portray Hong Kong Protests as U.S. Plot
Echoing Kremlin Line on Protests in Moscow and Kiev, State TV Sees U.S. Hand in Pro-Democracy Movement
Here is a crazy idea, maybe the Hongkongese actually want a say in how they are governed. And maybe, just maybe the Ukrainians want to make their own choices about their own country's future!OMG! Why is this idea CRAZY?
Not everything has to be a US plot you know.
Even more. Kate says gossip circulating on Russian talk sites tell that USA started problem because we worried there were too many Russian and Ukrainian peoples. So USA wants them to kill each other to thin the ranks out.
And more. USA started Ebola outbreak because we want to reduce the number of black people in Africa.
Are these low lifes still drinking too much vodka?
This is a good statement. We (America) are involved in just about every continent. It is too much now. The American people generally would like to see a pullback and refocus on the home front. Trotting around and facilitating the assassination of foreign leaders such as Assad or khadafi is not our job or decision. If continue to do these sort of things we should expect that other strong nations will follow suit.
Fathertime!
This is a good statement. We (America) are involved in just about every continent. It is too much now. The American people generally would like to see a pullback and refocus on the home front. Trotting around and facilitating the assassination of foreign leaders such as Assad or khadafi is not our job or decision. If continue to do these sort of things we should expect that other strong nations will follow suit.
Fathertime!
The American people have spoken through polls and the indisputable fact is...there is little interest in foreign wars and interference.
So, you speak for the American people in general,
The American people have spoken through polls and the indisputable fact is...there is little interest in foreign wars and interference.
Fathertime!
The American people have spoken through polls and the indisputable fact is...there is little interest in foreign wars and interference.
Fathertime!
Amid deepening violence across Eastern Europe and the Middle East, Americans are recoiling from direct engagement overseas and oppose U.S. involvement in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria and Ukraine by large margins, according to a POLITICO poll of 2014 battleground voters.
1. There is/ will be boots on the ground one way or another.
You are not reading the polls correctly. The indisputable fact is there is little interest inforeign warsplacing boots on the ground. One year ago 70% of Americans opposed air strikes in Syria (after Syria's use of chemical weapons on its civilians). Today, Seven in 10 Americans support air strikes against Islamic State insurgents in Syria.
[/size]http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2014/10/broad-backing-for-air-strikes-on-isis-less-for-u-s-forces-as-advisers-in-iraq/[/color]
Obama listened to ill-informed doves such as yourself and ignored Syria, allowing ISIS to develop. We were so disconnected from Syria that until one month ago the US thought of ISIS as the junior varsity.
It would be nice my dear fathertime if the world was the utopia you envision. However, there will always be bad guys and the US needs to be better informed and sometimes more involved than shown under the current administration.
1. There is/ will be boots on the ground one way or another.
2. Why does it appear that I think the world is utopia? I actually don't think that at all.
3. I follow world events rather close. If I'm misinformed than 99.8% of the US populace including you are also misinformed.
4. It is possible at this particular point in time that there is support for strikes against ISIS, but that would be the exception. I used the word generally for a reason.
[/size][size=78%] [/size]
You have no proactive position against bad guys, as if they do not exist and would never harbor the intention to harm Americans or American interests.
Begs the question of who is the 100 - 99.8 = 0.2%. Just because you read something does not mean you comprehend it, or more important able to see the big picture. BTW, one follows closely. although you may be a close follower.
This is a little silly. It does appear that it is indisputable that American as a whole are NOT interested in foreign wars/interventions GENERALLY! Of course there are certain situations, where a case can be made to change that FACT, but these are the exceptions. If you don't get what is being said here, I don't know if it can be explained much better...or perhaps you do think Americans are interested in foreign intervention/wars.
You used the word "indisputable." You did not use the word "generally" in what I quoted. If you did in an earlier post, please note that the word "generally" in comparison with "indisputable" is like "good" vs. "best." You used the phrase "It is possible..." Does that mean you are wrong? Are you sure you are not going out on a limb? ;) [/size][size=78%] [/size][size=78%]
The American people have spoken through polls and the indisputable fact is...there is little interest in foreign wars and interference.
Fathertime!
You have no proactive position against bad guys, as if they do not exist and would never harbor the intention to harm Americans or American interests.
Argentina's President, is now convinced that the USA is looking to topple her, or assassinate her. When random and rather neutral countries like Argentina are having these sort of complaints against the USA you certainly got to wonder what is going on? This is obviously not an isolated incident. Maybe we shouldn't be sticking our snout so far up the rear ends of so many govts.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/01/argentina-president-claims-us-plot (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/01/argentina-president-claims-us-plot)
Fathertime!
Can you cite the poll you are referring to?I can provide you a link, although you have left a gaping question on reply 30 unanswered in this thread for some strange reason: I will accept a flat denial... Or maybe you should come clean (show a little honor), IF the case warrants it.
Hah, I'm not a professional, I'm only a beginner in propaganda business :D
Answering your question, why not? If russian volunteers became Russian army in west media interpretation, everything is possible. We can only guess how many US volunteers are fighting there 8)
A piece in which a Russian soldier claims he was spirited into Ukraine in a "humanitarian aid" truck
http://www.vocativ.com/world/ukraine-world/pro-russian-separatist/
In any event, here is a nice link for you to read regarding a recent Politico Poll.
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/despite-a-plethora-of-world-crises-americans-oppose-greater-foreign-intervention/ (http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/despite-a-plethora-of-world-crises-americans-oppose-greater-foreign-intervention/)
Perhaps you think there is wide support for the USA to stick our snout around the globe, but I don't see it.
Oh, I know, Russia was justified because its vassal sate Ukraine wanted to better itself and break away from the Russian masters. How dare they?
Didn't you state earlier that your step son was a staunch supporter of Russia's current actions toward Ukraine?
If yes, then how is your relationship with him coming along?
I couldn't have a person in my house whose views on such matters were 180 degrees opposite of mine on such an important matter.
So - Just wondering !!
My God! Look at what are you doing fathertime.
The date of the Politico report you cite is July 21, 2014.
If you are so well informed fathertime, why are you citing out of date polls? The only possible answers are that you are trying to deceive us, or rationalize a position you know is wrong, or that you are indeed lame in the head. I don't believe you are lame, so tell me why I should respect your views if you do not respect our views enough to discuss without twisting facts.
Frankly, I am getting annoyed from reading about your position. You criticize America for intervention policies when in comparison with past decades we have backed away from intervention. OTOH you criticize Ukraine for defending itself against a neighboring bully who is grossly intervening in Ukraine, killing thousands of citizens, stealing sovereign land, downing a passenger airline from another country, etc.
So what precisely is your policy? You can not have it both ways. If you are a non-interventionist, you should be criticizing Russia. Oh, I know, Russia was justified because its vassal sate Ukraine wanted to better itself and break away from the Russian masters. How dare they? You better be convincing in your response because your empty rhetoric is becoming tedious.
While the Putin Trolls are making side show spectacles of their moral disintegration, Russia is still invading Ukraine.
Yes I cited a link from under 3 months ago, it isn't as if it is from 2 years ago. At that point it had been several years of a Syrian Civil war and the US public was NOT interested. Since that point there have been some public beheadings which have moved people to want to do something. SO WHAT?
You may think that the USA hasn't been busy 'intervening' elsewhere, but I don't agree. If other powerful nations decide to do something in the same vein, we aren't ones to demand they stop.
Didn't you state earlier that your step son was a staunch supporter of Russia's current actions toward Ukraine?
If yes, then how is your relationship with him coming along?
I couldn't have a person in my house whose views on such matters were 180 degrees opposite of mine on such an important matter.
So - Just wondering !!
You wrote, "So what?"
Isn't that what Hillary told the Congressional committee investigating whether the White HOuse had mislead the American public about Benghazi? She said it better, "What difference does it make" but it still was an indirect admission of misleading the public. And in your case I take it as indirect admission of being wrong, that is, you were attempting to mislead us.
Apparently neither one of you can read. "Hunter" is fighting for the pro-Russian separatists, in the Vostok Battalion, against Ukraine.Exactly, US is fighting Ukraine in the same way just like Russia. I thought my sarcasm about double standards was clear enough.
Your comment about not having a person in your house with polar opposite views, I and the mother of my sons would stand in the election lines just to cancel each other's vote, yet we got along splendidly in life.Me too. I'm afraid to look as unprincipled person but I would change the election line if she promise me a good meal for disloyalty to my party.
Apparently neither one of you can read. "Hunter" is fighting for the pro-Russian separatists, in the Vostok Battalion, against Ukraine.
"It was real fascism and it came from the Soviet Union. This whole evil comes from there – from that distant past.” . .
Yurov's views, on the other hand, have only hardened as a result of his ordeal. He's currently reshaping what he calls the hypocrisy of the separatists into a play.
Yurov says he's heard many of them push the idea that there’s one huge Slavic nationality, which should inhabit a single Slavic world. He's also heard them insist that they're offering safety from evil, such as “the demon America and gay European Union.” It's all material for his new work.“Our answer to that is quite simple,” Yurov said. “Do your Russian world in your Russia and that’s it.”
The ordeal of Ukrainian playwright Pavel Yurov, who was held prisoner and tortured by the terrorists-
http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/america-tonight/articles/2014/10/1/ukraine-slovyansktorture.html (http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/america-tonight/articles/2014/10/1/ukraine-slovyansktorture.html)
It appears that the former leader of Germany Gerhard Schroeder and many other Germans believe that Russia has cause enough for their actions. He also believe there should be a deescalation. I'm sure the 'war hawks' will disagree: Here is the link:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-10-01/schroeder-says-germany-should-expand-energy-ties-with-russia.html (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-10-01/schroeder-says-germany-should-expand-energy-ties-with-russia.html)
Fathertime!
This comment shows you have no farging clue as to what is happening in that neck of the woods.
Can anyone elucidate the gentleman about who is Schroeder and what is he doing as of today?
FT, sure google can be your friend. However, for someone who is just learning what is happening out there, you should expand your search and read not only the stuff that will inflate your ego, but also the stuff you don't agree with. That should give you a better perspective and may make you sound knowledgeable about the topic at hand.
For example, I'm a liberal and I read the Wall Street Journal every day.
So Schroeder is working with Russia now. He was a recent leader of Germany and still has a following. He doesn't have a soiled reputation and has made reasonable points. I see that there are some reasonable people that don't agree with the west's handling of this. I've been reading the other side of the story and don't agree with a lot of it.
Fathertime!
But these weren’t professional soldiers: They were some of the hundreds of edgy Estonians who have flocked to a volunteer army in the months since neighboring Russia annexed part of Ukraine to the south.Wall Street Journal (http://online.wsj.com/articles/alarm-over-russia-draws-volunteers-to-defend-estonia-1412266762)
Recruitment in the first half of this year doubled to 600 compared with 300 in the same period last year. The Estonian Defense League, or Kaitseliit, now has around 14,500 members in its fighting units, compared with around 3,800 in the professional military.
The surge is a sign of how Russia’s newly aggressive foreign policy is rattling people across Eastern Europe. It is echoed in the rising popularity of similar paramilitary forces like the Riflemen’s Unions of Lithuania and Poland and Latvia’s home guard.
The Kaitseliit is run by the Defense Department and its members are expected to report for duty in the event of a national crisis.
“I want to defend my homeland, my family,” said Kevin Ungro, an 18-year-old student, during a break in training. “The more people who know how to handle a gun, the better our chances of defending ourselves.”
When Vladimir Putin first moved on Ukraine in late February, Ms. Merkel urged caution on sanctions and reached out to Moscow. Russia accelerated the annexation of Crimea and moved on to eastern Ukraine. You now hear regret from Merkel aides. "We have been late to recognize what Putin's up to," says a senior official.
Germany's long romance and business links with Russia, its war guilt, the traditions of Cold War Ostpolitik are the usual excuses. It took revulsion over the Malaysia Airlines shootdown in July to stir action. Ms. Merkel, whose East German upbringing makes her naturally hostile to Putin-style autocracy, acted on her more hawkish instincts. Last month she pushed through the toughest EU sanctions on Russia to date. "We had to send a message we don't trust the guy," the German official says. As for the Ukrainians, Berlin "is ready to support them as much as we can."
The qualifier is the problem. The new realism on Moscow comes with many of the same limits. Raising the option of weapons for Ukraine or permanent NATO bases in Poland prompts the inevitable response: "There is no readiness to go to war with Russia," as this official puts it. At each step the past six months, the caution born of this fear has only encouraged Russia in Ukraine. This is the odor of appeasement.
You seem to misunderstand win-win and equate it to everybody being happy and completely free. That isn't realistic and never was. This is not UTOPIA! if a devastating wide war comes of this, many would probably wish for the 'good old days' when Russia merely wanted to retain some influence in a portion of a neighboring country with a significant Russian population. Ukraine is considered a pawn by larger powers and isn't going to get a fair shake.
LMFAO
You want to see reasonable people? Of course you may disagree with them. But that is because you live so many thousands of miles away.
Alarm Over Russia Draws Volunteers to Defend Estonia
Wall Street Journal (http://online.wsj.com/articles/alarm-over-russia-draws-volunteers-to-defend-estonia-1412266762)
Notice what this unreasonable man said? How selfish. He should just bend over and take it like a man. After all, that would be a win-win situation for them, right?
If that was your takeaway from the discussion you would be woefully mistaken.
This was never about protecting ethnic Russians, and if you believe that, you are woefully misinformed.
Oh, and talking about reasonable German leaders...Not one EU country or the US is willing to enter military conflict against Russia. So the question remains of whether sanctions will work.
Angela Merkel's Putin Problem
Hoping a shaky cease-fire holds in Ukraine, because backup plans are scarce.
BTW, you know who was a reasonable but misunderstood man? Neville Chamberlain
Good news for Ukraine. Bad for Putin
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSL6N0RY2UC20141003?irpc=932
The recent US intervention in several locations
President Barack Obama wants everyone to know "how we roll": The US always takes the lead in international crises.
In a "60 Minutes" interview Sunday evening, Obama was asked why the US is contributing such a significant portion of the military coalition against the jihadist group known as the Islamic State or ISIS. Obama responded by arguing that other countries were not stepping up.
"When trouble comes up anywhere in the world, they don't call Beijing, they don't call Moscow. They call us. That's the deal," he quipped.
When CBS' Steve Kroft pressed Obama on the relatively small contributions from some of the US' coalition partners, Obama insisted such arrangements were expected.
"That's always the case. That's always the case. America leads. We are the indispensable nation," he said. "We have capacity no one else has. Our military is the best in the history of the world."
We all remember what he said: that the United States of America was man’s last, best hope on earth. But listen to when he said it. America then was far from being the strongest nation in the world; it was far from being the richest nation in the world; and it was sorely stricken and divided by a civil war, the most brutal war, perhaps, of the 19th century in terms of the casualties that were suffered.
Yet Lincoln, this man who could see beyond war and beyond strife and beyond weakness to the periods ahead, stood tall and said America is man’s last, best hope on earth.
(and financial warfare regarding Russia)
Good luck with that.
I have found Ron Paul's economic prophesies about the strength of the dollar persuasive in spite of himself. But people all over the world still want our buck.
Good news for Ukraine. Bad for PutinWhy is it bad for Russia?
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSL6N0RY2UC20141003?irpc=932 (http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSL6N0RY2UC20141003?irpc=932)
It may be that enough people do want the dollar going forward...that will remain to be seen. If these large markets such as India, China, and Brazil, among others do start trading in there own currency and bypass the dollar...I will be curious to see how exactly that impacts us. It does appear our interventions have hastened this day.
Fathertime!
Why is it bad for Russia?
Did you read the article?
I suspect "Doll" behaves deliberately obtuse. Take a closer look at her posts. She asks the same questions over and over. A few days later, she will act as if a subject has not even been covered. Overall, you're wasting your time responding to her, FT or GQblues. They all follow similar tactics.Indeed, the US needs to make more free press.
In the case of Doll and fathertime -- just plain dumb. Fathertime in particular can never keep up with any thing substantive. GQblues sets the bar impossibly high.
Nothing anyone here says will change the reality on the ground. There is a separate reality over there, away from anyone here trying to "care".
Worldwide opinion is already made up; and that's good enough for me. Conspiracy theories aside, most of the World has a free press who can write what they want to write. Compare that to the other side.
Did you read the article?Yes
First, Doll definitely is not dumb.Boe, I don't think you are familiar with Russian press.
Second, the U.S. does have a free press. Unlike in Russia, the government does not have any role in what should be printed for the masses. However, corporations that own media can, and have, exerted influence in some cases.
I suspect "Doll" behaves deliberately obtuse. Take a closer look at her posts. She asks the same questions over and over.What exactly question do I ask "over and over"?
First, Doll definitely is not dumb.So there is nothing like a system that rates publications on suitability for ages?
Second, the U.S. does have a free press. Unlike in Russia, the government does not have any role in what should be printed for the masses. However, corporations that own media can, and have, exerted influence in some cases.
Second, the U.S. does have a free press. Unlike in Russia, the government does not have any role in what should be printed for the masses. However, corporations that own media can, and have, exerted influence in some cases.
So there is nothing like a system that rates publications on suitability for ages?
Boe, I don't think you are familiar with Russian press.
So there is nothing like a system that rates publications on suitability for ages?
I suspect she if referring to political expression in the press. Of course there are laws about child pornography, etc
Your statement is accurate and to the point. I don't know how anyone can argue with it.Sorry, sir, I will argue. Just because I am a RF citizen, I read in Russian AND English, I go to Russia every year.
It is you opinion and nothing else.
Yes I am. I read articles daily. My better half gave up reading both the Russian and the Ukrainian press, due to, in his observation (in order):
1. propaganda
2. the bad quality of the language (grammar, vulgarity); and
3. idiocy.
Where do you live?
Correct. Where I live, pornography cannot be purchased by minors. It is not hidden, and is sold widely, though usually is behind the clerk's counter. This, though, is relatively new. Even in the 1990's, porn was just on the magazine shelf, for anyone to purchase, or view.
It is you opinion and nothing else.
Doll definitely is not dumb.
Sorry, sir, I will argue. Just because I am a RF citizen, I read in Russian AND English, I go to Russia every year.
Not you or Boe, but I can tell people here how things are with press in Russia. Press and TV.
Good news for Ukraine. Bad for Putin
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSL6N0RY2UC20141003?irpc=932
Why is it bad for Russia?
Did you read the article?
Yes
The Statoil deal with Ukraine is excellent news for Ukraine, but I also don't see how it is bad news for Putin and/or Russia. Remember that Russia has already cut off gas supplies to Ukraine, therefore it cannot possibly be affected by this decision.
What's the biggest difference between today and a day in the middle of January assuming Ukraine can't get gas anywhere else? A lot of people are going to die in Ukraine from freezing and illness. I don't know how cold it gets down under but try sleeping in your freezer one night for one hell of an unpleasant experience. Also under freezing conditions pipes will freeze and burst. Water will be difficult to obtain.
If President Poreshenko doesn't secure enough gas to last the winter, he will be looking bad and Russia will be looking better to more of the citizens of Ukraine. If Russia isn't successful in freezing Ukrainians, he will most likely apply more violence next Spring.
Now listen to me- NO Russians are interested in Ukrainians freezeing.
What's the biggest difference between today and a day in the middle of January assuming Ukraine can't get gas anywhere else? A lot of people are going to die in Ukraine from freezing and illness. I don't know how cold it gets down under but try sleeping in your freezer one night for one hell of an unpleasant experience. Also under freezing conditions pipes will freeze and burst. Water will be difficult to obtain.
If President Poreshenko doesn't secure enough gas to last the winter, he will be looking bad and Russia will be looking better to more of the citizens of Ukraine. If Russia isn't successful in freezing Ukrainians, he will most likely apply more violence next Spring.
What is "Siloveeki "?
I suspect "Doll" behaves deliberately obtuse. Take a closer look at her posts. She asks the same questions over and over. A few days later, she will act as if a subject has not even been covered. Overall, you're wasting your time responding to her, FT or GQblues. They all follow similar tactics.
In the case of Doll and fathertime -- just plain dumb. Fathertime in particular can never keep up with any thing substantive. GQblues sets the bar impossibly high.
Nothing anyone here says will change the reality on the ground. There is a separate reality over there, away from anyone here trying to "care".
Worldwide opinion is already made up; and that's good enough for me. Conspiracy theories aside, most of the World has a free press who can write what they want to write. Compare that to the other side.
What's the biggest difference between today and a day in the middle of January assuming Ukraine can't get gas anywhere else? A lot of people are going to die in Ukraine from freezing and illness. I don't know how cold it gets down under but try sleeping in your freezer one night for one hell of an unpleasant experience. Also under freezing conditions pipes will freeze and burst. Water will be difficult to obtain.
If President Poreshenko doesn't secure enough gas to last the winter, he will be looking bad and Russia will be looking better to more of the citizens of Ukraine. If Russia isn't successful in freezing Ukrainians, he will most likely apply more violence next Spring.
I don't see it quite that bleak. Ukrainians are very rugged, especially those in the villages.
City dwellers are already buying electric water heaters and space heaters. As long as they have electricity, they will survive. Villagers are so used to intermittent electricity, they often have backup sources such as wood stoves for heat and cooking. Keeping electricity to the cities will be the challenge.
Now listen to me- NO Russians are interested in Ukrainians freezeing.
You don't know my nation.
You have consistently overestimated Putin
Hundreds die and thousands will be hospitalized in harsh winters with plenty of gas available. When gas is turned off, thousands will die and tens of thousands will be hospitalized.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/09/world/europe/europe-cold-snap/
With electricity usage going up multiple times, I doubt their power plants can sustain. In the most critical times, there will be power outages, especially at night and on the coldest days when the need for heat is in most demand.
Also most boilers heating Ukrainian buildings are gas powered. Pipes will freeze and people will be without water.
Not too long ago you seemed happy Russia was turning off the gas because Ukraine couldn't pay for it. Didn't you and your fellow citizen understand what that meant this winter? It means Ukrainian are going to freeze.
Putin IS using gas as a weapon to achieve his goals. 3000 people died so far in this war. I suspect the Ukrainian winter alone is going to kill more than that. Between life and death, many people would choose life under the rule of a bad man than death with a nice guy in charge. Poreshenko needs to make sure he has adequate energy supplies this winter or he will lose some support. Putin needs to threaten the EU and prevent companies from giving or selling gas to Ukraine to make his plan work effectively.
Has Putin stopped his pursuit of Ukraine? If so, then you are correct.
I live in Alberta.If state owned media is equal to absence of free press then the UK is in big trouble.
No, it is not my opinion. There is plenty of evidence, including whole networks and newspapers owned by the Russian government, that prove otherwise.
Please point me to US government owned newspapers.
Not too long ago you seemed happy Russia was turning off the gas because Ukraine couldn't pay for it. Didn't you and your fellow citizen understand what that meant this winter? It means Ukrainian are going to freeze.
If state owned media is equal to absence of free press then the UK is in big trouble.
Hundreds die and thousands will be hospitalized in harsh winters with plenty of gas available. When gas is turned off, thousands will die and tens of thousands will be hospitalized.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/09/world/europe/europe-cold-snap/
With electricity usage going up multiple times, I doubt their power plants can sustain. In the most critical times, there will be power outages, especially at night and on the coldest days when the need for heat is in most demand.
Also most boilers heating Ukrainian buildings are gas powered. Pipes will freeze and people will be without water.
Not too long ago you seemed happy Russia was turning off the gas because Ukraine couldn't pay for it. Didn't you and your fellow citizen understand what that meant this winter? It means Ukrainian are going to freeze.
Putin IS using gas as a weapon to achieve his goals. 3000 people died so far in this war. I suspect the Ukrainian winter alone is going to kill more than that. Between life and death, many people would choose life under the rule of a bad man than death with a nice guy in charge. Poreshenko needs to make sure he has adequate energy supplies this winter or he will lose some support. Putin needs to threaten the EU and prevent companies from giving or selling gas to Ukraine to make his plan work effectively.
Has Putin stopped his pursuit of Ukraine? If so, then you are correct.
Not just state owned, but presenting the government's perspective. The BBC does not do that. Russian state owned media does. Do you believe the BBC would report, as a fact, that a 3 year old child was crucified, complete with a totally fabricated, and inaccurate description of the town square on which it occurred?
Being an apologist is one thing. Denying the reality of how things are reported is something else completely. On almost every measurable level, Russian media is subpar when compared to American media. Not only that, they seem to have taken the most appalling examples from Western media - Fox news - to emulate.
Make a note of our predictions. We can check it later in the winter. If I am wrong, I will eat crow. ;D
Billy, show me- where I was "happy"?
show me ANY store in the USA where I can get things just saying "I have no money but I need it"
Very few of your Jeremiads have came true. As a matter of fact, I can't think of a single one
they seem to have taken the most appalling examples from Western media - Fox news - to emulate.
Show me this "everywhere"- where I was "happy" about Ukrainians' hardships.
Everywhere. You seem to be happy Ukraine gets whatever Putin gives. If not, please tell us what Putin is doing to Ukraine that makes you upset.
TMZ is an entertainment gossip site. Not comparable.How do you know if you do not watch them?
The BBC often criticises the British government. As does PBS at times (Frontline). That is not true of Russian media.
How do you know if you do not watch them?I, Russian citizen, who go to Russia every year (watch TV, read many news papers) asked her the same question.
Silovikihahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa shame on me!
BBC and PBS are available here, though I don't watch much television. I've seen Frontline, though I usually watch it online if the subject interests me. Frontline is often critical of the US government. Tell me of a programme comparable to this report about Russia, on Russian state owned television -So you do not watch either the BBC or the Russian state owned programs yet claim to be an expert on their content?
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/united-states-of-secrets/ (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/united-states-of-secrets/)
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/united-states-of-secrets/http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/government-elections-politics/where-is-voter-discrimination-the-worst/ (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/united-states-of-secrets/)
I read the BBC site. It is not slanted in terms of pro Britain, but I do think it is leftwing.
Show me this "everywhere"- where I was "happy" about Ukrainians' hardships.
All in all the American public is mislead (willingly sometimes) rather easily, in my opinion!
I do believe the Ukrainian people are a resilient people. You don't?
BS 300%
You believe Russia has the right to be involved in Ukraine. Every time there is a Ukrainian hardship, you turn your head the other way. You refuse to believe Putin sent troops into Ukraine to kill Ukrainians. If something said in the media that shows Russia in a bad light, you think it's propaganda. You avoided my question about Russia banning those who bought their gas from selling it to Ukraine which in turn is going to kill innocent civilians. You continue to believe Russia has nothing to do with Ukrainian hardships and only Ukrainian rebels and the fascists government there is causing all the problems. If a civil war brings Ukraine back to Russia, you will be happy. Along with war comes hardships.
Show me where I said I was happy about any hardships of Ukraine.
If a civil war brings Ukraine back to Russia, you will be happyBilly, dear, when Ukraine was in Russia? I mean "new history"- after 1917.
Show any of my posts with this "happy". You find one- I'll send you $20
You are happy with Putin's policies and those policies are creating hardships on Ukrainians. If you learn at the end of winter Putin's policy of turning off the gas and initiating a new law banning other nations from sending gas to Russia kills an additional 500 babies than a normal winter would, would that be enough for you to criticize Putin just once since you're against hardships for Ukraine or is Putin's gas strategy justified? You've ignored my previous questions, I suspect you will ignore this one too.
Not just state owned, but presenting the government's perspective. The BBC does not do that. Russian state owned media does. Do you believe the BBC would report, as a fact, that a 3 year old child was crucified, complete with a totally fabricated, and inaccurate description of the town square on which it occurred?
Being an apologist is one thing. Denying the reality of how things are reported is something else completely. On almost every measurable level, Russian media is subpar when compared to American media. Not only that, they seem to have taken the most appalling examples from Western media -Fox newsMSNbc - to emulate.
I don't disagree with anything you wrote here....I would say overall very few Americans are interested enough to do much, if any thinking regarding international affairs. Those that do decide to take an interest, can be mislead, or will never know certain pertinent facts, as they are secret or buried pretty well. At this point there is so little trust in our govt. that garnering real support for most foreign interventions is going to be very difficult...it pretty much takes public beheadings, or something of the like to get begrudging support....and even then there are lingering doubts as to the veracity of what is really happening, since we do have a history of false flag operations such as the Lusitania, or the Tonkin incident.
Even with private media, reporters and editors have their beliefs and like to promote it. Obama can make a speech on his policies. A conservative reporter will report the truth on what Obama said and put his opinion in the article saying how those policies are bad for you. A liberal reporter can report the truth too and add his opinion on how those policies are good for you. As a reader, one has to figure out what is fact, what is opinion, and what opinion is fact. Humans aren't perfect. Can't expect the news, to be perfect either but privately owned news with competition from other privately owned news sources is better than all news being state owned.
I sure do deny.I watch news on Первый канал. Have never heard anything like "fascists". The news are very neutral.
Ahh no. The BBC does represent the government's view just as PBS represents' the liberal secular view. Russian media is subpar when compared to American media. I agree with that. Actually Russian media is subpar when compared to Latin or even Arab media. You just GQBluesed your argument when you said Fox is the most appalling example of Western media especially when they are the ratings giants compared to the ratings minnows like CNN, MSNBC, et al. The most appalling example of Western media, click on TMZ
Some problems with American media.
Evening news: covers local news stories, and when they do cover world events they usually just repeat with our 'representatives' say.
Talk Radio: Will have a longer conversation but many times the personalities are so bombastic and one-sided that nobody wants to go on the show...so mostly people get a one-sided analysis.
Internet: People usually simply go to websites that repeat their side of the story and reaffirm what they already believe (muzh ;) )
A lot of times, if a politician is questioned, he doesn't answer the question he works around it, and if he is pressed he works around it again, and then the segment is over.
Among younger people there is little interest/understanding in world events, as they are usually out whooping it up, or stoned! All in all the American public is mislead (willingly sometimes) rather easily, in my opinion!
Fathertime!
So you do not watch either the BBC or the Russian state owned programs yet claim to be an expert on their content?
Perhaps you should not believe all the propaganda you hear. And internet clips do not count, as they do not show the full programming. It is simple to make a point by taking fragments out of context.
Too late,lordtiberius and Stirlitz- I reported to moderators.
To the rest of board members- they both used a VERY strong swearing towards Russia's President and Russia as a country.
It is totally unacceptable on this respected forum, it is against the rules.
Lord just repeated it without understanding, but Stirlitz did it purposely.
Too late,lordtiberius and Stirlitz- I reported to moderators.It took me a while to understand what you mean.
To the rest of board members- they both used a VERY strong swearing towards Russia's President and Russia as a country.
It is totally unacceptable on this respected forum, it is against the rules.
Lord just repeated it without understanding, but Stirlitz did it purposely.
Billy, it is for you (about gas disputes between Russia and Ukraine)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_gas_disputes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_gas_disputes)
Trying to defend Putin's policies....again? You understand those policies create hardships for Ukrainians? Putin didn't have much problem with Ukraine not paying the bill when his puppet president ran the country so I'm not buying that it's a big problem now.
I don't expect Russia to give away free gas. There are better ways to resolve this. EU and America are eager to help. Putin should create a payment plan for Ukraine and get America and EU to help with the bill if necessary. All that could be part of the aid package America and EU wants to help Ukraine with. If sides can't agree, Russia should not create a law banning nations purchasing their gas from sending it to Ukraine. Your government wants Ukraine to have zero gas, period. Their intent is to harm Ukraine and Ukrainians into submission. In America we have laws that prevent utility companies from shutting off gas or electricity in the winter even if a person can't pay. It's inhumane to force people to live in a freezer. Putin wants Ukrainians to live in a freezer as punishment for ousting it's puppet president and leaving it's sphere of influence.
He can't.
Billy, give it a rest.
Or at least be a little bit more intelligent about it, please?
Didn’t you watch this?
I sure do deny.I watch news on Первый канал. Have never heard anything like "fascists".
Like I said, obtuse.I find it difficult to disagree even though I would prefer to avoid applying such terms to a dame. Yet.. see above. Perhaps it is the Russian way to deny the obvious?
It took me a while to understand what you mean.
It is not "too late", someone’s corrected my post and replaced the real name of the Muscovy president with his alias that he got when he worked for the KGB (Poo-tin). I regard this as oppression of free speech. Poo-tin is Who-ylo, and it is not a swearing word, it is his real name. We in Ukraine refer to him this way all the time and few people think that it is a swearing word. It used to be — now it is not.
We just call a spade a spade.
Billy, give it a rest.
Or at least be a little bit more intelligent about it, please?
Or at least be a little bit more intelligent about it, please?
I offered him $20- he refused)))
I posted the link to Wiki-
LMAO!!
And you are different because....?
Just FYI: I am Russian. I speak Russian. My Ukrainian is limited (I understand all of it but I am not as fluent as I should be). I am not going to give up Russian. I spoke it all my life, I speak it daily, I will speak it and no one is going to prevent me from speaking it. As I explained above in this thread.
That's truly beautiful. I mean think about it...those ethnic Russians, who can actually speak their minds, refer to the new Napoleon, the new Hitler, as a d*&$head. Now just imagine what's going to happen in Russia, when this mess is finally over and he's finally on the way out!
BS 300%
FTFY
Well I'm not stoned for one! :D
Fathertime!
:ROFL:
What do you think this is, high school??
Bro, I haven't seen a doober in decades.
Before the RF goes through the Yugoslavia scenario, consider that if huilo manages to create all these frozen conflicts; one on the east, another along the Mariupol stretch and finally in Odessa, it will polarize the country to a point it will disintegrate just like Yugoslavia did. The fringe nationalists will break away from the moderates and the country will lose all European support. This is a very likely possibility. (Are you listening win-win?) This would be in Russia's best interest as it would control all the serfdoms that would be created, including the old area of Galicia.This is not going to happen. Ukraine is united now rather than polarized. It is funny but it is huilo’s direct merit. We used to be kind of polarized but... how do I explain? Those who know something about our culture will understand. There is a saying: муж и жена одна сатана. So, if there is a quarrel in a family, outsiders are advised to stay away, not to try to interfere or take sides, otherwise they may suffer. However much family members argue and fight each other, it is inside their family. As soon as someone third intrudes, they unite against the intruder. So, if you believe that the husband is offending his wife and want to kick him for that, you may discover the wife hitting you on the head from the back because you hurt her beloved husband (whom you are going to protect her from).
Is it Putin a little old for the cast list for the Expendables?
It's a complete fantasy by Belvis, like most "news" emanating from Russia. Putin would never put on combat fatigues and actually participate. Like all Mafia bosses, he has underlings who do his dirty work, and like all Mafia bosses his communication is passed down through enough different hands that he can claim not to know about it.
I was thinking the same thing.
I am still waiting for Putin to ride his horse into Alaska and annexing it. ;D
He could easily say he is protecting his "Native speaking Russians". In addition, like Crimea he could claim that a past dictator sold it too cheap to the USA.
I was thinking the same thing.
I am still waiting for Putin to ride his horse into Alaska and annexing it. ;D
He could easily say he is protecting his "Native speaking Russians". In addition, like Crimea he could claim that a past dictator sold it too cheap to the USA.
Donetsk Republik celebrated half-year of its existence in the last weekend. Nobody thought about in the New Year but Maidan has made the unthinkable happened.
It seems the idea of new born state has come into minds of people, the point of no return passed.
(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5114/33018055.6c/0_a65d4_d66f3f4b_XL.jpg)
Why are the streets not crowded with supporters?I was supprised to see any crowd. Ukraine artillery kills locals at streets each day.
Interesting flag selected by the wannabe secessionist republic. Do you know that it closely resembles the battle flag of the Confederate States of America, a union of secessionist states? Unlike the CSA flag, your flag has no stars. As Putin makes similar advances along his borders, you too can add stars for each new republic/state separated from some sovereign country.May be they will add stars ) Yes, the resemblance was discussed but nobody cares as you Yankees take over the Confederate States and flag has gone off the battlefields :)
Your flag is also referred to as the St. Andrew's cross - a common piece of equipment in BDSM dungeons.I suppose you associate St. Andrew with BDSM player? :) Well, BDSM is not so popular in FSU to be afraid of unwanted similarities.
Yes, the resemblance was discussed but nobody cares as you Yankees take over the Confederate States and flag has gone off the battlefields :)
I was supprised to see any crowd. Ukraine artillery kills locals at streets each day.
I was thinking the same thing.:cluebat: :ROFL:
I am still waiting for Putin to ride his horse into Alaska and annexing it. ;D
More locals die at the hands of the terrorists than at the hands of ATO. The terrorists also shell the city, and violated the ceasefire not only in Donetsk, where they are desperate to take the airport, but also in Mariupol, where they have almost no local support. In Luhansk, the terrorists broke the ceasefire, killing 3 ATO soldiers.And do not forget the Red Cross worker in Donetsk who was hit by a government rocket.
Meanwhile, in the LPR, the citizens have virtually no infrastructure, schools are not operating, most of the mines are inoperable, rail lines are destroyed, pensioners have been without funds for months, most have no jobs. So, what have the esteemed self appointed leaders decided is the most pressing issue for this new "republic"? Banning homosexuality.
http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1412628810 (http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1412628810)
WARNING: The following image may cause distress to die-hard commies
Can someone translate what that banner says?
More locals die at the hands of the terrorists than at the hands of ATO. The terrorists also shell the city, and violated the ceasefire not only in Donetsk, where they are desperate to take the airport, but also in Mariupol, where they have almost no local support. In Luhansk, the terrorists broke the ceasefire, killing 3 ATO soldiers.
Meanwhile, in the LPR, the citizens have virtually no infrastructure, schools are not operating, most of the mines are inoperable, rail lines are destroyed, pensioners have been without funds for months, most have no jobs. So, what have the esteemed self appointed leaders decided is the most pressing issue for this new "republic"? Banning homosexuality.
http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1412628810 (http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1412628810)
Does anyone know what happened to this Art? Seems to be another casualty of this war, if it still has not found a home back in Ukraine, where it belongs.
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2014/08/war-over-crimean-gold-proxy-ukraine-russia-amersterdam-201482392137799800.html
Collection was made from artifacts of five museums, four from Crimea and one from mainland Ukraine. Artifacts from 5th museum have been returned back home to Ukraine, other artifacts on hold and will be so for a time being. Last time I seen update in Ukrainian news on subject (few weeks back): Netherlands said court should decide and they follow whatever decision will be made, Crimea's museums suddenly did not want to go to court as till Crimea annexation legally not recognized they have no chance, their plan was sit, wait and let Netherlands hold artifacts for now as maybe one day world recognizes Crimea as part of Russia and then they can legally claim those artifacts. :cluebat:
I was reading and found this piece regarding Reuters investigators finding serious flaws in what was the 'accepted' narrative regarding the some of the deaths:
This part was particularly interesting:
A Reuters examination of Ukraine's probes into the Maidan shootings - based on interviews with prosecutors, defence attorneys, protesters, police officers and legal experts – has uncovered serious flaws in the case against Sadovnyk and the other two Berkut officers.[/size]Among the evidence presented against Sadovnyk was a photograph. Prosecutors say it shows him near Kiev’s Independence Square on Feb. 20, wearing a mask and holding a rifle with two hands, his fingers clearly visible.[/font][/b][/i][/size]The problem: Sadovnyk doesn’t have two hands. His right hand, his wife told Reuters, was blown off by a grenade in a training accident six years ago. As prosecutors introduced the image at a hearing in April, said Yuliya Sadovnyk, her husband removed a glove and displayed his stump to the courtroom.http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/10/us-ukraine-killings-probe-special-report-idUSKCN0HZ0UH20141010 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/10/us-ukraine-killings-probe-special-report-idUSKCN0HZ0UH20141010)I shall be curious to see how this pans out, but it certainly appears somebody was being set up to take the fall by Ukrainian authorities! Fathertime!
b]Among the evidence presented against Sadovnyk was a photograph. Prosecutors say it shows him near Kiev’s Independence Square on Feb. 20, wearing a mask and holding a rifle with two hands, his fingers clearly visible.[/b][/i][/font][/size][/font][/b][/i][/size]The problem: Sadovnyk doesn’t have two hands. His right hand, his wife told Reuters, was blown off by a grenade in a training accident six years ago.
Very interesting, thank-you. I hope the World never recognizes the annexation of Crimea; and I also hope that Putin is stopped where he is in Eastern Ukraine so that he never gets his wish of a land bridge to Crimea. Perhaps in 15 years or less when Putin is finally gone the next Russian leader will do the right thing and give Crimea back to Ukraine where it belongs.According to Dutch law, if it is not returned in 30 years it will become Dutch property. The Dutch museum has no objection to wait.
In the meantime looks like those artifacts will be in limbo land.
According to Dutch law, if it is not returned in 30 years it will become Dutch property. The Dutch museum has no objection to wait.
This is interesting, but we've heard it and seen it before.IT is the same satellite image that they turn around for the use they wish to give to it.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/12/us-ukraine-crisis-putin-military-idUSKCN0I103V20141012 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/12/us-ukraine-crisis-putin-military-idUSKCN0I103V20141012)
The article said he's on trial for ordering his men to fire on protestors, not for firing a weapon himself. If his own men testify against him saying he gave the order, he will most likely be found guilty. The photo of the man in the mask with two hands may not be him, but other evidence can be used against him.
According to Dutch law, if it is not returned in 30 years it will become Dutch property. The Dutch museum has no objection to wait.
This is interesting, but we've heard it and seen it before.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/12/us-ukraine-crisis-putin-military-idUSKCN0I103V20141012
Well Billy, evidence was presented showing him as a gunman with two hands, when it is obvious he only has one hand. Now that
'evidence' was easily refuted and is obviously fake, which will raise the question as to what else is fake? Now that has been shown that somebody is trying to frame/lynch this guy, everything else has to be called into question. The link further explains, that the investigation concluded that there are serious flaws regarding the other two officers as well and goes into some detail why. It certainly appears that the real shooters could easily NOT be these guys, which then begs the question of WHO WAS?
Fathertime!
You know the Dutch aren't even a real countryTell that to our king (who is half German) and Queen (who is Argentinian).
Tell us again about Tower 7You are mindlessly jabbering here. I've never said a thing about tower 7 in the past...and have no interest in that subject.
Well Billy, evidence was presented showing him as a gunman with two hands, when it is obvious he only has one hand. Now that
'evidence' was easily refuted and is obviously fake, which will raise the question as to what else is fake?
You are mindlessly jabbering here. I've never said a thing about tower 7 in the past...and have no interest in that subject.
Fathertime!
Tell that to our king (who is half German) and Queen (who is Argentinian).
You know the Dutch aren't even a real country
This is true. Although I've heard of Deutschland (Germany) I have never heard of Dutchland. Isn't there a country nearby called The Netherlands though? ;D
You know the Dutch aren't even a real country
This makes no sense. They have a long history (longer than Germany's), their own language, and are acclaimed in many areas to include international business, art, etc.
It would seem that we (the USA) is trying hard to harm the Russian economy .So you are openly saying that the USA is harming Russia.
(http://www.examiner.com/article/as-secret-saudi-deal-increases-harm-to-russian-currency-china-intervenes)
I doubt quite strongly that Russia has anything to do with this. OPEC countries are fighting for market share, particularly since the US started drilling shale oil. The US is now exporting oil to Eastern Canada, which previously received gas from Western Canada and . . . Saudi Arabia.
Shale gas (and oilsands) need a certain price per barrel to be profitable. So, dropping prices will help those countries which don't have a significant cost in extracting oil (the Gulf States and Iran).
I doubt quite strongly that Russia has anything to do with this. OPEC countries are fighting for market share, particularly since the US started drilling shale oil. The US is now exporting oil to Eastern Canada, which previously received gas from Western Canada and . . . Saudi Arabia.
Shale gas (and oilsands) need a certain price per barrel to be profitable. So, dropping prices will help those countries which don't have a significant cost in extracting oil (the Gulf States and Iran).
So you are openly saying that the USA is harming Russia.
(I agree).
Exactly. Natural Resource Economics 101 says that those who own and control the natural resources must keep the price low to prevent alternative sources from developing. Shale drilling is an alternative source.
Saudi Arabia does nothing that does not benefit its long term goals.
But, Russia is doing no harm to Ukraine?What does the US have to do with it?
What does the US have to do with it?
No, Russia is not intentionally harming Ukrainian economy.
:ROFL:
The US that is on another half of globe interferes in this conflict is intentionally harming Russian economy.
And you guys are saying it openly.
What does the US have to do with it?
No, Russia is not intentionally harming Ukrainian economy.
The US that is on another half of globe interferes in this conflict is intentionally harming Russian economy.
And you guys are saying it openly.
There is a humanitarian need to assist Ukraine. They were too weak to defend themselves against the Russian bully. ;D
It's not only the US and Canada on this side of the globe helping Ukraine, it is also Europe and Australia.
You can't figure out that with most of the world on Ukraine's side, there must be something wrong with Russian policy?
same to your" NATO partners"- stay away.
That's right we are doing that, but not only the USA is doing it, so are our partners in NATO.
So you are openly saying that the USA is harming Russia.
(I agree).
same to your" NATO partners"- stay away.
What does the US have to do with it?
No, Russia is not intentionally harming Ukrainian economy.
The US that is on another half of globe interferes in this conflict is intentionally harming Russian economy.Yes, we are. It's no secret that economic sanctions have been instituted against Russia because of Russia's naked aggression on the sovereign lands of Ukraine. Deal with it
And you guys are saying it openly.
There is a humanitarian need to assist Ukraine. They were too weak to defend themselves against the Russian bully. ;DIraq (again)
It's not only the US and Canada on this side of the globe helping Ukraine, it is also Europe and Australia.
You can't figure out that with most of the world on Ukraine's side, there must be something wrong with Russian policy?
Iraq (again)
I might partially agree with you. We had won the war, but our stupid president gave away the victory. He is only going back to try and save face.Sorry for my ignorance- what war?
).
I might partially agree with you. We had won the war, but our stupid president gave away the victory. He is only going back to try and save face.We could have admitted defeat now, and stayed home. However it would set a terrible precedent for us to do so. Also, it is disrespectful to the many American soldiers that gave their lives to win the war the fist time. I have mixed emotions about it.Obama put us between a rock and a hard place (American expression).
No, you hadn't won the war. Iran won, as the Sunni minority that ruled Iraq was replaced by an Iranian friendly Shia PM who routinely dismissed Sunni minority concerns. That is why many Sunnis support, or, at a minimum, are indifferent to ISIS.\Boe, you tell me who attacked the USA? What war exactly?
I doubt thousands of Americans died in order to bolster Iran's desire to be a regional power.
The war in Iraq.I mean- who attacked the US?
What does the US have to do with it?
No, Russia is not intentionally harming Ukrainian economy.
The US that is on another half of globe interferes in this conflict is intentionally harming Russian economy.
And you guys are saying it openly.
There is a humanitarian need to assist Ukraine. They were too weak to defend themselves against the Russian bully. ;D
It's not only the US and Canada on this side of the globe helping Ukraine, it is also Europe and Australia.
You can't figure out that with most of the world on Ukraine's side, there must be something wrong with Russian policy?
I mean- who attacked the US?
Or NOW why is the US bombing this country and EU is being quiet?
Uh?
So you are openly saying that the USA is harming Russia.I think there is no doubt the US is trying to harm Russia and its economy. It is futile though. Russia enjoys either support or non-compliance from too many other nations to be isolated.
(I agree).
There is a humanitarian need to assist Ukraine. They were too weak to defend themselves against the Russian bully. ;D
It's not only the US and Canada on this side of the globe helping Ukraine, it is also Europe and Australia.
You can't figure out that with most of the world on Ukraine's side, there must be something wrong with Russian policy?
I might partially agree with you. We had won the war, but our stupid president gave away the victory. He is only going back to try and save face.
We could have admitted defeat now, and stayed home. However it would set a terrible precedent for us to do so. Also, it is disrespectful to the many American soldiers that gave their lives to win the war the fist time. I have mixed emotions about it.
Obama put us between a rock and a hard place (American expression).
Alarming news has been coming from Kharkiv, a key city in Eastern Ukraine. Whoever follows reports in the media alone might think that it is on the verge of a separatist revolt. Reports come of occasional explosions here and there. Rumours of the flags of a “Kharkiv People’s Republic” sewn in underground workshops are spreading. Videos with appeals of “guerrillas” promising an end to the “junta” appear online. Is there really a threat? And will Kharkiv follow in the footsteps of Donetsk and Luhansk?
It is hard to feel any threat as I roam around the city. At first glance, life here is calm here. Traffic is dense on central roads; a happy throng of students hangs out on Ploshcha Svobody, the Freedom Square; and a tent collecting donations for the army stands before the building of the Oblast Council. Still, this quiet routine does not guarantee that the situation is actually completely under control. Just a few months ago, Donetsk too was hardly bothered by a handful of people occupying the Oblast State Administration (ODA) and lived its quiet parallel life. Very soon, it saw missiles raining over the city.
Kharkiv differs from Donetsk, like a worker from an old influential bureaucrat. The former is used to acting directly, on impulse, with force. The latter weighs things up and uses reasoning. One swears loudly, the other doesn’t, but remembers everything and chooses the appropriate time for manoeuvres. Kharkiv’s former status of a capital, grandiose architecture, cosmopolitan youth and the glory of an academic city obligate it to behave accordingly. When an uncontrolled pro-Russian crowd raged in downtown Kharkiv in March, it did not attract mass support and compassion of the locals, unlike in Donetsk. Kharkiv does not stand in the middle of mining villages with poor population that could have risen for a revolt.
“Actually, there were only Russians and Oplot (a pro-Russian Kharkiv-based fight club led by Yevhen Zhylin who fled Ukraine. Oplot reportedly participated in March attacks on Kharkiv EuroMaidan activists and journalists. It was when Serhiy Zhadan, a well-known modern writer from Kharkiv, was seriously injured – Ed.), everything was well organised, this was not a spontaneous popular revolt,” said Olena Levytska, a local EuroMaidan activist. “The muscular men who fought in front of the ODA and seized it, were brought here in minivans. The ‘assault force’ of the crowd that stormed the Oblast Administration building and kicked out Ukrainian activists that were inside, were athletes and professional fighters. The police did not get in their way.”
"The Russian border is just 38 kilometres away from Kharkiv. It’s about 80 km to Belgorod (the closest big city in Russia – Ed.). The presence of our eastern neighbour has always been very noticeable here. Kharkiv is actually a border city. There were lots of Russians here earlier – plenty of cars with Belgorod license plates on the roads. They bought food, clothes and other things at our Baraban (the Barabashovo Market), because shopping was always far cheaper in Ukraine. Many Russians have always worked in Kharkiv because Belgorod Oblast has high unemployment, so they would come to work here. The Russians also took part in (pro-Russian – Ed.) protests here, which is why they initially seemed so big. Even today, the Russians who live and work here, are clearly waiting for some commotion,” Levytska says. March and early April were uneasy in Kharkiv. During this period, separatists seized the building of the Oblast State Administration several times, but withdrew each time. After the Ukrainian-Russian border was almost closed, movement, anti-government rallies attracted fewer participants and became far less aggressive. The decisive battle for the Oblast Administration building took place on April 8. On this day, the police were able to regain the seized building and arrest about 70 pro-Russian fighters who for the most part, it later emerged, were members of Oplot. After this, street fights came to an end and calm reigned in the city.
Once the border between Ukraine and Russia was closed, it became calmer in Kharkiv. You won’t really see any cars with Russian licence plates on the streets and local separatists have become illegal and gone underground. But most of the patriots here feel that it’s not so underground, because the separatist movement is directly supported by the city Mayor, Hennady Kernes. Anti-Ukrainian sentiments are very wide-spread among people working at budget institutions, the prosecution office, the police as well as the local authority.
“I work at a medical university. In our department, all the employees of the older generation advocated Russia – aggressively so, but they have calmed down now. Perhaps something started to get through to them, I don’t know … There used to be propaganda in favour of the “Kharkiv People’s Republic” at the market, but people started to complain about these campaigners and they disappeared,” said Iryna Lytvynenko, a Kharkiv resident.
According to the locals, all panic-filled rumours are generally spread on the vast Barabashovo Market, but it is hard to say whether this is done deliberately, or whether people are just gossiping. Quite recently, someone said that “Kharkiv People’s Republic” flags were being sewn in underground workshops. This information spread like wildfire through the city, but it was impossible to find any confirmation.
Many of the traders on the market are sympathetic towards Russia and Putin, but at the same time, business owners do not need war. Kharkiv is more dependent on small business, which is very sensitive to turmoil, than Donetsk and Luhansk. No one wants the Donbas scenario there. The fact that the separatist uprising did not gain mass support in Kharkiv is possibly because it is largely a city of traders, not workers. But the movement has not been entirely crushed, it is simply in hiding, and no one can say when and how it will manifest itself again. The Ukrainian government have become stronger now and there are no longer any questions about its legitimacy, so the separatists have to wait for the next excuse for activity.
“The company where I work monitored sentiments in Kharkiv during and after the Maidan. The actual share of the pro-Russian crowd was 30%. This figure did not change from one opinion poll to another. Another 15% are active Ukrainian patriots. The rest are a very passive mass with limited interests and indifference about everything,” says Kharkiv resident Anton Vasylenko.
There is actually a confrontation in Kharkiv between separatist and patriotic-minded citizens. But it has not been really noticeable so far, taking place in gateways and in the courtyards of residential areas. Almost every night, the slogans “For Novorossiya”, “Novorossiya – is peace” and “Kharkiv is Russia” appear on the walls of buildings. Someone regularly paints over them, but they reappear. Walls have transformed into a kind of chat, where patriots and separatists leave messages for one another. The former draw the Ukrainian flag, while the latter slap red paint on them, symbolising the blood of the Donbas residents that Ukraine has shed in the East. To many, though, this blood-stained flag means quite the opposite: Ukraine bleeding to death as a result of the Kremlin’s aggression and terrorist attacks.
Even if the underground anti-Ukrainian movement exists, it is just that, not open massive separatist movement similar to that which unfolded in the Donbas this spring. The separatists in Kharkiv are small illegal groups, which do not really have any power or mass support from the locals. On the one hand, this is a troubling red flag: the Donbas, too, had separatism in the form of small marginal organisations before it finally exploded. On the other hand, such elements cannot succeed without the support of the local authority and silent sabotage of law enforcement. The main thing that differentiates Kharkiv from the Donbas is the loyalty of the local authority to Kyiv. The revolt in Kharkiv came to an immediate halt after the oblast and city councils refused to support the separatists, and the police cleaned out the seized ODA just once.
However, Kharkiv supporters of the EuroMaidan feel that such loyalty is temporary and opportunistic. Therefore, they are convinced that a relapse may occur unless the central government conducts lustration in the city and punishes those guilty of the organisation and support of anti-Ukrainian riots.
“The revolution has changed the colours of posters: in January and February they had “Kharkiv stands for stability” on a blue background, and now, they say “For peace and order” on a yellow-and-blue background (the colours of Ukrainian flag – Ed.). Meanwhile, former Oblast Administration Chairman Dobkin (at the end of January, Mykhailo Dobkin and Kharkiv Oblast Administration deputies wore T-shirts saying “Berkut” to show support of the notorious special-purpose police that shot at Maidan protesters in February – Ed.) is not regarded as separatist, and the mayor cannot be punished because he has health problems (Hennadiy Kernes survived an assassination attempt in April, leaving him partly paralyzed – Ed.). That’s it for the changes,” says Kharkiv resident Oleksiy Stepiuk pessimistically.
This situation concerns many others. The local patriotic community believes that Hennadiy Kernes is secretly behind the separatists’ actions and is merely waiting for the opportunity to declare Kharkiv a republic, with himself at the helm. “I shall not allow fighting in Kharkiv, we are taking a different path,” he once said reportedly. What path he has in mind, remains a mystery.
I can assure you that nothing happens in Kharkiv without Kernes’ participation. Remember this when you see something unfolding here. He has some well-fed EuroMaidan activists, as well as Communists under his control, all those conflicts here that were aired on TV, are largely a staged show. The Mayor wants to create the impression that Kharkiv is not calm, that the battle continues. Why is he doing this? Possibly to show Kyiv that he is the only one capable of maintaining order here – that he is useful. He is always playing some game of his own. But no one knows exactly what kind of game it is,” said Denys Tkachenko, a local publisher.
On September 18, there really was a minor scuffle between local Communists and football ultras in the city centre, which seemed much bigger on TV than it was in reality. About 30 mostly elderly people came out onto Ploshcha Svobody with Soviet flags and were attacked by a group of masked young men. At first, the police allowed the attackers to take and tear up several placards, before stepping in to end the conflict.
Mykola Pakhnin, Adviser to Ihor Baluta, current Chairman of the Kharkiv Oblast Administration, says that “Before the assassination attempt on Kernes, there were constantly disturbances and provocations in the city. They usually occurred on Saturdays and Sundays. The tactic was to besiege the Oblast Administration, just as in Donetsk. After the assassination attempt on the Mayor, protests came down to a minimum. This was very noticeable. While everyone expected disturbances on May 1, 9, and 11 (May 1 was celebrated as Labour Day in Soviet times, while May 9 is Victory Day – Ed.), the month passed very peacefully, we were surprised. But as soon as Hennadiy Kernes reappeared in Kharkiv in June, disorder reigned once more. There was a fight on May 22. In each case, the provocateurs were strange unknown people in masks.”
At the same time, Pakhnin is convinced that the Donetsk scenario is no longer an option for Kharkiv because the separatist movement in the city was crushed by the police.
“Can the Donetsk scenario be repeated here? I am convinced that it can’t. Why didn’t the police act in spring, in the wake of it all? Everyone was very demoralised. At that time, Kharkiv’s Berkut had only just returned from the Maidan; many local police officers were lying wounded in hospital, forgotten by everyone. Baluta took over the oblast in chaos. Chief of the Kharkiv police, Anatoliy Dmytriev, had difficult work ahead of him. More than 300 participants of mass conflict were arrested. The leaders were detained. The entire movement in Kharkiv was left completely without leaders. The “Kharkiv People’s Republic” project ended as a fiasco. As far as the last explosions (at least two occurred on September 26. Earlier in September, a few groups of diversionists acting upon instruction of the Russian secret services were detained in Kharkiv, the SBU reported. They were preparing to destabilize peaceful cities with explosions in administrative buildings – Ed.) and terrorist acts are concerned, I’m sure that they were organised by external forces and diversionist groups that are coming to us from the area of the anti-terrorist operation,” Pakhnin stated.
Of course, Kharkiv Oblast is not at all like Donetsk Oblast. The difference is the most striking in small towns. There are hardly any huge plants here, the architecture is different, as well as the language and people. But it appears that neither Putin nor Kernes intend to care about the locals’ opinion. So, whether Kharkiv remains part of Ukraine depends, first and foremost, on the Ukrainian government and its ability to protect territorial integrity and state sovereignty.
Barking up the wrong tree on this one. I never supported the invasion of Iraq on the flimsy pretext of a "mushroom cloud over New York".Iraq asked for bombing?
As for now, I agree with others, the EU is quiet because the EU is also involved. Note, Iraq has not only asked for these bombings, it has asked for Western boots on the ground.
Good points, Brass.
Iraq asked for bombing?
Yes, of course they did. They even painted a big X on the roofs so we would know where to bomb.What?
I think you'll fit right in when you get back to Russia. ;D
Yes, of course they did. They even painted a big X on the roofs so we would know where to bomb.Like I said- very cinical. Real face.
I think you'll fit right in when you get back to Russia. ;D
Like I said- very cinical. Real face.
In none of my post I've ever " was happy" about this war or Ukraininan people hardships. On a Russian women forum NOBODY ever says they are "looking forward" to see Ukraine hardships.
Here it is a norm.
I am dissapointed.
My primary hope for now is that he will meet an enlightened young girl.
I wait for him to become enlightened.He won't, trust me- not because of propaganda but because he is right
Supporting President is one thing, wishing other nation collapse is another.
Here people a openly happy about hardships of other nation.
He won't, trust me- not because of propaganda but because he is right
No, Doll. He is not right.
There was never any risk of the US establishing a Black Sea Fleet.
Supporting President is one thing, wishing other nation collapse is another.
Here people a openly happy about hardships of other nation.
Gator, your stepson is right about Crimea.No he isn't right about Crimea. There never was, has been or will be a desire for a U.S. base in Crimea. Pure hyperbole propaganda
No he isn't right about Crimea. There never was, has been or will be a desire for a U.S. base in Crimea. Pure hyperbole propagandaactually it is pure bs that you would say this with such certainty. Nobody knows what the future holds..and you don't know for certain what has been discussed by various leaders. In addition it would not take a full fledged military base to potentially gain strategic advantages, in what appears to be an ongoing effort.
Supporting a president that is waging a war on a neighbor and wishing that neighbor to collapse is the very same as supporting the war with the neighbor and hoping for it's collapse. There is no separation of the two. No matter how you try to rationalize it in your mind. It's the same.
actually it is pure bs that you would say this with such certainty. Nobody knows what the future holds..and you don't know for certain what has been discussed by various leaders. In addition it would not take a full fledged military base to potentially gain strategic advantages, in what appears to be an ongoing effort.She just thinks so.
Fathertime!
Your deductive reasoning sounds good yet it is wrong if your first point is wrong. Russians believe that Russia is not waging a war; the conflict is limited to Ukrainians fighting Ukrainians.One more time- this conflict was started by Ukrainians againts Ukrainians.
actually it is pure bs that you would say this with such certainty. Nobody knows what the future holds..and you don't know for certain what has been discussed by various leaders. In addition it would not take a full fledged military base to potentially gain strategic advantages, in what appears to be an ongoing effort.
Fathertime!
Your deductive reasoning sounds good yet it is wrong if your first point is wrong. Russians believe that Russia is not waging a war; the conflict is limited to Ukrainians fighting Ukrainians.
Gator, your stepson is right about Crimea.
One more time- this conflict was started by Ukrainians agains Ukrainians.Actually it started back in 2002.No, it wasn't. About half the "pro Russian separatists" demonstrating in Ukraine were Russians, from Russia. Pro Russian separatists in Kharkiv admitted to being paid $40 a day(!) to demonstrate, and that they had received training in Russia. Polls, which I have linked, always demonstrated that Ukrainians were united in their views toward Ukraine, and in their opposition to NATO. Even now, less than half of those residing in terrorist controlled territories support separate republics.
Okay Mr. Wisenheimer what strategic advantage is there with a U.S military base in Crimea? Take your time and don't bore me with a bunch of "us", "we's" or "ours"
There are only two ports in Ukraine on the Black Sea. Sevastopol is one, and Russia had a long term lease for that port, and Odessa which, AFAIK, is still in Ukraine.Boe, if Ukraine joins NATO a whole bunch of military bases would be along Russia's borders next day.
The Black Sea, as I noted previously, is a locked sea. Once the Dardenelles are locked, there is no way out.
There was never any chance for the US to do this. However, the US military had been investigating setting up a large eavesdropping station in the region.
Boe, if Ukraine joins NATO a whole bunch of military bases would be along Russia's borders next day.
Including Sevastopol
Ukraine's mistake was giving up its nuclear weapons, though it could also probably stop the conflict today with a few airstrikes.
Brass, there are 2 US AF bases in Turkey
How does a few airstrikes end the battle?
Target the terrorists no matter where they are, with casual disregard for non combatants, and the war is over. However, Ukraine will not do this.Well that is an interesting opinion. It assumes there wouldn't be much of a response.
YOU are the know-it-all pretending to know the future! In addition to not reading carefully, if YOU can't figure out what strategic advantages are then you are a lost cause and i'm unwilling to help you.
Fathertime!
That's very interesting ft however it seems like deflection to me. I would like to know the answer to his question. Can you answer it productively or not?It is ok if that seems like deflection to you, because i think you know the answer. Most people realize there are many advantages to controlling space/resources. Although the original assertion i made wasn't specific to 'bases' if there were no advantages we wouldn't have them scattered all around the world.
Supporting President is one thing, wishing other nation collapse is another.
Here people are openly happy about hardships of other nation.
YOU are the know-it-all pretending to know the future! In addition to not reading carefully, if YOU can't figure out what strategic advantages are then you are a lost cause and i'm unwilling to help you.
Fathertime!
The day I needed your help would be the day I put a bullet in my own head. You run your mouth yet you know nothing. You haven't one original thought in your head. You are incapable of any intellectual thought or debate. You just keep coming back with nothing.
The day I needed your help would be the day I put a bullet in my own head. You run your mouth yet you know nothing. You haven't one original thought in your head. You are incapable of any intellectual thought or debate. You just keep coming back with nothing.
I may know nothing at all, but you seem rather upset that you got called on your stupid statement….as if your word means jacksquat to the leadership of Russia/US/Ukraine. Once again, FP knows FOR SURE what the future holds! so go ahead Mr Know-it-all, let’s hear the future of Crimea, or are you going to continue to act like an overgrown whiner about it because your itsey bitsy ridiculous ‘thought’ was challenged? :D
No he isn't right about Crimea. There never was, has been or will be a desire for a U.S. base in Crimea. Pure hyperbole propaganda
No, Doll. He is not right.
There was never any risk of the US establishing a Black Sea Fleet. There were never fascists running the government in Kyiv. There was never any threat to the Russian language in Ukraine.
I may know nothing at all, but you seem rather upset that you got called on your stupid statement….as if your word means jacksquat to the leadership of Russia/US/Ukraine. Once again, FP knows FOR SURE what the future holds! so go ahead Mr Know-it-all, let’s hear the future of Crimea, or are you going to continue to act like an overgrown whiner about it because your itsey bitsy ridiculous ‘thought’ was challenged? :D
Fathertime!
More nothingyou like to comment on 'nothing'..as well as declare multiple times that you 'don't care'! Hard to believe. Don't you have more ridiculous future predictions about where all the US military bases will be?
you like to comment on 'nothing'..as well as declare multiple times that you 'don't care'! Hard to believe. Don't you have more ridiculous future predictions about where all the US military bases will be?
iFatherNOTHINGtime!
For you, DollYou qouted the Communist Party person.
you like to comment on 'nothing'..as well as declare multiple times that you 'don't care'! Hard to believe. Don't you have more ridiculous future predictions about where all the US military bases will be?
You qouted the Communist Party person.
No, thanks
If you have access to any copies with English subtitles or English transcripts please post them.You have a Russian speaking wife
Seriously?
Ukraine had no intention of joining NATO before Russia decided to invade its sovereign territory.
And just where do you think that Vladimir Putin comes from, a convent?Then why quote "КПРФ"?
:ROFL:
More nothing
iFatherNOTHINGtime!
Why would the USA want to risk starting WWIII by wanting to try to place a military base in Crimea? That's what I would like to know. You really do seem to know almost nothing about geo-political realities, ft.
Seriously?
Helo!
you like to comment on 'nothing'..as well as declare multiple times that you 'don't care'! Hard to believe. Don't you have more ridiculous future predictions about where all the US military bases will be?
iFathertime!
I think that it must be poor reading skills that leads you to have attributed this concept of a US military base to ME.
That wasn't the position I was taking. Sure we (the US) would enjoy locking/limiting Russia in Crimea, but that is different than the US having a military base there.
Why would the US like to start WWIII? That is YOUR question to answer...as I'm not posing that question....maybe you could ask LT who also thinks WWIII is coming and inevitable if I've read what he has written correctly.
Fathertime!
Seriously.
http://www.razumkov.org.ua/eng/poll.php?poll_id=46
You don't live in a real world. Nobody will ask Ukraine if it wants military bases.
Seriously.
http://www.razumkov.org.ua/eng/poll.php?poll_id=46 (http://www.razumkov.org.ua/eng/poll.php?poll_id=46)
More nothing. Have you anything to contribute to the discussion? Are you capable?
No he isn't right about Crimea. There never was, has been or will be a desire for a U.S. base in Crimea. Pure hyperbole propaganda
That poll is five years old. There must surely be something more recent.
You don't live in a real world. Nobody will ask Ukraine if it wants military bases.
Poles! You're funny.
Boe, do you really think that "poles" will have any affect?
For NATO?
BTW, now for you
http://podrobnosti.ua/accidents/2014/10/14/997966.html (http://podrobnosti.ua/accidents/2014/10/14/997966.html)
Nevertheless, hoping others are bombed is rather barbaric.
Looks like a continuation of your anger because I called out your earlier ridiculous statement about KNOWING future plans. Interesting/telling that you can't get past it! :D
[size=78%]Fathertime! [/size]
Polls
Polls.
For anyone interested my relatives are safely out of Lugansk for a few weeks now. They left when next door was shelled down. They are now safe in Russia but have to start again from scratch. My cousin is in late fifties, äs I said they left everything behind. This part of my family have always lived in that area, even before it was given to Ukraine by Lenin. They hope one day Kiev will get bombed as well for all they have done and all the people they have killed. This is my hope too.
And you keep coming back with nothing
For anyone interested my relatives are safely out of Lugansk for a few weeks now. They left when next door was shelled down. They are now safe in Russia but have to start again from scratch. My cousin is in late fifties, äs I said they left everything behind. This part of my family have always lived in that area, even before it was given to Ukraine by Lenin. They hope one day Kiev will get bombed as well for all they have done and all the people they have killed. This is my hope too.
question is ranetka , who took up guns in the first place in the donbass to solve a political issue ??
SX
For anyone interested my relatives are safely out of Lugansk for a few weeks now. They left when next door was shelled down.
They are now safe in Russia but have to start again from scratch. My cousin is in late fifties, As I said they left everything behind. This part of my family have always lived in that area, even before it was given to Ukraine by Lenin. They hope one day Kiev will get bombed as well for all they have done and all the people they have killed. This is my hope too.
Not in donbass. On maidan. Guns, chains, Molotov cocktails. That thing called revolution always results in bloody civil war. The one where Kiev and galicia decided for all Ukrainians.
Well Ranetka, I'm sure a lot of people feel similarly as you do. From the reading I've done there is certainly more than one side to this story.
Fathertime!
Not in donbass. On maidan. Guns, chains, Molotov cocktails. That thing called revolution always results in bloody civil war. The one where Kiev and galicia decided for all Ukrainians.
But what Ranetka stated is, in fact, what millions of Ukrainians believe, whether or not others wish to acknowledge that.
But what Ranetka stated is, in fact, what millions of Ukrainians believe, whether or not others wish to acknowledge that.
Plenty O' nothingAnd how long have you been able to fail to predict the future of Russia/Ukraine/USA?
That the government in Kyiv was replaced by Central/Western Ukraine. And further, that those individuals do not represent them.
And how long have you been able to fail to predict the future of Russia/Ukraine/USA?
:thumbsup:
Fathertime!
That the government in Kyiv was replaced by Central/Western Ukraine. And further, that those individuals do not represent them.
Ukraine's parliament essentially remained unchanged after ex president Yanukovych was ousted. Then an election was held, an election agreed upon by Yanukovych to elect a new president. Were Central/Western Ukrainians the only ones that participated in electing Poroshenko? No. With all of Ukraine, except the parts Putin got involved in, voting in a presidential election and a parliament that remains nearly the same, it's a stretch to say Central/Western Ukraine took charge. Poroshenko is in charge and he doesn't act for Central/Western Ukraine. He acts for all Ukraine.
Yes, there are U.S. air force installations in Turkey. Off the top of my head I don't know if they're permanent (long term lease) or on loan short term for the recent/current conflicts.
Turkey is hosting other NATO countries as well. It may be part of their NATO commitment.
There is a difference in establishing a military presence [edit: within] one's coalition/allied/regional commitments or through invitation though, Doll. I would assume the U.S. acting unilaterally building military installations or increasing their military presence [beyond one's agreement/commitment] would be met with resistance from allied/host countries.
Brass
And when he tires of bringing nothing, he brings more nothingThanks for talking about 'nothing'...much better than your absolute predictions about the future.
However, none of that is my point. My point is what millions in the region believe and feel. They believe and feel the way Ranetka expressed her perspective. Those individuals believe the current government is run by Western Ukrainians, that they don't represent them, and that they will not be ruled by them.I have believed this to be true all along...a lot of Ukrainians don't feel represented. If that is the case, how is it that the USA should go marching in and try to change minds by use of force/ sanctions/pressure? The Ukrainians/Russians have been living amongst each other for a long time... they gotta work this out and it doesn't have to turn into a worldwide issue.
They hope one day Kiev will get bombed as well for all they have done and all the people they have killed. This is my hope too.
Shall others adhere to your attitude and hope you and your family one day will be wiped off from the earth?
I have believed this to be true all along...a lot of Ukrainians don't feel represented. If that is the case, how is it that the USA should go marching in and try to change minds by use of force/ sanctions/pressure? The Ukrainians/Russians have been living amongst each other for a long time... they gotta work this out and it doesn't have to turn into a worldwide issue.
Fathertime!
Your kind tried already.
Your kind tried already.
My kind unlike your kind do not wish for 2.758 millions of people to die.
By the way, how you feel about the fact kind among who you are living starting to supply bullet-proof vests and helmets to the kind you hate so much?
Shall others adhere to your attitude and hope you and your family one day will be wiped off from the earth?
That map shows the Kuban Oblast(west of the Sea of Azov) of Ukraine as red..Kuban is in Russia.
It's Ukrainian or at least it was until Russia annexed it as it did Krym twice now.
That map shows the Kuban Oblast(west of the Sea of Azov) of Ukraine as red..(http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/dims12/5919788/30735/30735_600.png)
It's Ukrainian or at least it was until Russia annexed it as it did Krym twice now.
Boethius really? You disagree with AC? And how sis West Ukraine benefit especially when part of it is Hungarian?
First one is a map of Ukraine in 1918..Ukraine was a part of USSR. Who stole what?
Second is after the Soviet stole massive amounts of Ukraine by 1919.
Ukraine was a part of USSR. Who stole what?
It is like saying the US stole Frlorida.
People, read something, will you?
History of Kuban, Crimea.
Then why is Huilotin claiming the Kruschev illegally gave/reunited Krym to Ukraine in 1954 and now is taking it back to right the wrong?
Thanks for talking about 'nothing'...much better than your absolute predictions about the future.
Fathertime!
More.........nothing
Because Putin in particular and Russians in general are dishonest thuggish type of peopleit's your opinion, not a fact
it's your opinion, not a fact
it's your opinion, not a factCoolio ft. L.V - Gangsta's Paradise (Official Mus…: http://youtu.be/cpGbzYlnz7c
This is boring. Please stop.
Absolutely I will! Just as soon as you stop opening and fueling war and killing threads. Those are much more boring than anything that has graced this Russian woman discussion forum. Agreed?
This is a 'Russian women discussion forum' ??????? Since when???? :-[
Well Ranetka, I'm sure a lot of people feel similarly as you do. From the reading I've done there is certainly more than one side to this story.
Fathertime!
Not in donbass. On maidan. Guns, chains, Molotov cocktails. That thing called revolution always results in bloody civil war. The one where Kiev and galicia decided for all Ukrainians.
Your kind tried already.
one of them being that there are quite a few people in Ukraine that do support the rebels
You didn't bother to look at this thread did you?
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=18211.0 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=18211.0)
Make your own analysis... http://www.iri.org/sites/default/files/2014%20October%2014%20Survey%20of%20Residents%20of%20Ukraine%2C%20September%2012-25%2C%202014.pdf (http://www.iri.org/sites/default/files/2014%20October%2014%20Survey%20of%20Residents%20of%20Ukraine%2C%20September%2012-25%2C%202014.pdf)
Other polls over the years still show the majority want a united Ukraine including the SE area and Krym.
'Alot' doesn't make a majority especially during a real vote.
AC, relax. It takes two to tango and I've learned to deal with passive-aggressiveness from my children so it will not get to that.
However, don't you find that "over the years" statement a bit curious? He said he was "invited" here but didn't say by who. You know what I say to that? BULLSHEVIK!!!
AC, relax. It takes two to tango and I've learned to deal with passive-aggressiveness from my children so it will not get to that.
However, don't you find that "over the years" statement a bit curious? He said he was "invited" here but didn't say by who. You know what I say to that? BULLSHEVIK!!!
Prime Minister David Cameron of the UK met Vladimir Putin in Italy and told him to denounce illegal elections and a "frozen conflict":
excerpt from article
"David Cameron has challenged Vladimir Putin to denounce illegal elections in Ukraine to stop the crisis becoming a "frozen conflict".
The Russian President refused to commit to condemn a set of illegal elections Russian separatists in the country plan to run next month ahead of the official Ukranian elections in early December.
The British Prime Minister met Mr Putin and Petro Poroshenko, the Ukrainian President, at a breakfast meeting with other European leaders.
Mr Cameron welcomed the talks as "positive" but warned Moscow that sanctions will not be eased unless it takes more decisive action to end the conflict.
During the discussions, Mr Cameron pushed the Russian president to show he was really committed to avoiding a "frozen conflict" by denouncing a set of elections planned by Russian separatists in Ukraine.
Instead, he said, Mr Putin should clearly back the Ukrainian Government elections to be held later this month and in early December. However Mr Putin refused to condemn them."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11169311/Denounce-illegal-Ukrainian-elections-and-avoid-frozen-conflict-David-Cameron-tells-Vladimir-Putin.html
That's interesting but seems out of place on this thread. Back on topic is the discussion of a Russian and Ukrainian gas deal, which is certainly part of this conflict as Putin may use it as a weapon against Ukraine:
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/10/21/uk-ukraine-crisis-gas-idUKKCN0IA16V20141021
Eastern Ukrainian separatists are receiving dozens of tanks and Russian-trained fighters, one of the rebel leaders has said, suggesting that Moscow continues to defy international pressure to end its backing for the four-month conflict.
Alexander Zakharchenko, who took over a week ago as prime minister of the self-declared Donetsk People’s Republic, told members of his government that rebel forces had reopened a corridor to the Russian Federation allowing fresh inflows of arms and fighters.
“At present, moving along the path of this corridor . . . there are 150 items of combat hardware, 30 of which are tanks,” a YouTube video released on Saturday showed him as saying. Also en route were “1,200 individuals who underwent four months of training in the Russian Federation,” he said.Though the revelation could not be independently confirmed, it comes one day after Kiev claimed to have used artillery to destroy Russian combat vehicles illegally entering its territory.
Denied by Russia, the incident allegedly occurred at a border crossing near the other rebel-held provincial capital, Lugansk, close to where a Russian convoy of nearly 270 trucks carrying humanitarian aid was parked awaiting Ukrainian customs clearance.
In Kamensk-Shakhtinsky, where more than 360 Russian aid trucks have been parked since Thursday, the Red Cross and Ukrainian and Russian representatives continued their negotiations over how the Russian aid convoy would be allowed into Ukrainian territory.
Six representatives for OMON, a Russian special police force, stood guard over the convoy camp on Saturday, refusing to let press access the site.News organisations including the Financial Times have spotted numerous armed military vehicles on the main highway leading to the Russian town of Donetsk which borders Ukraine. Some of the vehicles have borne the red initials “MS” – the Russian symbol for peacekeeping forces.
On Saturday, there appeared to be fewer armoured personnel carriers and military vehicles driving on the roads than in previous days.Mr Zakharchenko’s confirmation that Russia continues to give military backing to his separatist movement upholds Kiev’s claim that its northern neighbour – which annexed Crimea earlier this year – is waging a “hybrid war” by orchestrating the separatist rebellion then providing arms and rebels for its fighting force.
Backing claims by their government, Ukrainian soldiers have in past weeks claimed to be routinely engaging undercover Russian soldiers alongside the rebels, while also being shelled from Russian territory.In Donetsk this week, a rebel spokesman admitted Russians accounted for a significant part of rebel ranks. He said they were “fighting for Russia” against the west in a “civilisation war.
”The prospect of fresh inflows of arms and fighters could make things more difficult for Ukraine’s advancing army, which claimed in past weeks to have made significant gains towards encircling the militant strongholds of Donetsk and Lugansk.Pro-Moscow separatists in eastern Ukraine have escalated the political turmoil that threatens to tear the country apart.
Mr Zakharchenko, a native of Donetsk region, rose to prominence last week after replacing Muscovite Alexander Borodai, who has close ties to Kremlin insiders. His rise to power preceded this week’s unexpected removal of former Russian intelligence officer Igor Girkin, better known as Strelkov or Shooter in Russian, as the group’s military commander.
The leadership shake-up appears to be a bid to conceal links to Russian involvement. But mounting evidence that Moscow continues to funnel arms and fighters to the separatist uprising is nonetheless likely to raise further international alarm, deepening the Kremlin’s stand-off with the west.The US and EU have repeatedly warned Moscow that it faces additional economic sanctions should it fail to take measures to calm tensions in the most serious east-west stand-off since the cold war.
Reuters showed photographs of the two badly damaged tanks, one of which had lost its turret, to four independent military experts, who said they were of a type used exclusively by the Russian army.
At least one, they agreed, was a T-72BM - a Russian-made modification of a well known Soviet tank. This version of the tank, they said, is not known to have been exported.
"It is operated by the Russian Army in large numbers, but crucially it is not known to have been exported or operated outside of Russia," Joseph Dempsey, a military analyst for the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies, wrote in late August when a tank like that was discovered on grainy footage of rebel convoy.
"The presence of this variant in Ukraine therefore strongly supports the contention that Russia is supplying arms to separatist forces," Dempsey said.
Such remarks clearly undermine Russian denials of direct involvement in the conflict in Ukraine...
Alexei Koshelenko, who said he was captured on Aug. 24-25 near the town of Ilovaysk, said: "We were hit by (multiple rocket launcher) Grads and after that the troops just swept us away. We were completely defeated within 20 minutes. Many of us were killed, others are missing."
"They were Russians," he said after being released with other prisoners of war. Referring to a city 300 km (200 miles) northeast of Moscow, he said: "They said they were an airborne assault battalion from Kostroma."
"We saw an armoured convoy coming down here," she said. "They had white circles on the armour and white flags but whose troops they were we don’t know."
Neither the rebels nor the Ukrainian forces have white circles as their permanent recognised emblem. But another local resident...said she had been told the meaning of the white circles in conversations with passing soldiers who identified themselves as Russian.
"One of them told me: white circles mean this is Russians," she said. "He came to the last house for some water to drink and I asked how you can tell the difference between a Ukrainian or Russian. He said that if it's us, there are white circles on the tanks."
The two damaged tanks were too badly burnt to have any recognisable insignia but a destroyed Soviet-made BMP-2 armoured personnel carrier a few hundred metres away also bore a white circle on its broken turret.
Residents of areas on the Ukrainian side of the border with Russia also reported seeing armoured convoys marked by white circles on Aug. 26.
Two days later Reuters spotted an armoured convoy with the same insignia on the Russian side of the border.
Anti-tank missiles fired near where the tanks were destroyed also appear to have originated in Russia because various used parts of Kornet anti-tank guided missiles were left there.
Reuters showed three military experts photographs of the missile parts and two of them said Ukraine does not have anti-tank guided missiles of this type.
Trenches near the tanks also provided what appeared to be more evidence of foreign troops - numerous empty boxes of ready-to-eat meals that are used by the Russian army. Each box contains meals for one day.
A Reuters reporter counted 124 packages of field rations with "not for sale" labels and notes that they were produced for the Russian Defence Ministry.
A spokeswoman for Voentorg, the company in Russia that produces such meals for the Russian Defence Ministry, confirmed they cannot be sold.
I seem to recall a few days ago people here were gleefully clapping that Putin/Russia was going to fold up and shrink away. Based on Putin's comments today, that is far from accurate. http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-russia-putin-us-20141024-story.html (http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-russia-putin-us-20141024-story.html)
I seem to recall a few days ago people here were gleefully clapping that Putin/Russia was going to fold up and shrink away. Based on Putin's comments today, that is far from accurate. http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-russia-putin-us-20141024-story.html (http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-russia-putin-us-20141024-story.html)
Among his comments he has stated that the USA has distorted the world based on their interests...and that USA instigated the coup in Ukraine.
In another development, the Asian infrastructure bank was launched today. Based on the link it sounds like Kerry twisted the arms of Australia and possibly a couple other nations NOT to join (like we should be telling other nations what to do)..nevertheless 21 nations did join, China and India being the largest. Our attempts at undermining this group seem to validate some of Putin's earlier statements about the US distorting things to suit it's own interests. We shall see if this lessens the influence/profits of western powers in the region. [size=78%]http://finance.yahoo.com/news/three-major-nations-absent-china-040036987.html (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/three-major-nations-absent-china-040036987.html)[/size]
Fathertime!
Pionier, Sigda Gatov!!!!
The only way this ends is for Russia to give up the current President of Russia in favor of someone else. Anyone else
This sounds exactly like most posters on here when they discuss the President of the USA.
An excellent article (with a very good translation) about the tragedy which occured in Ilovaisk.
My brief analysis:
Those who read the article very carefully will notice that some of the senior Ukrainian officers were not competent and did not take information regarding the coming hostilities seriously. Others will obviously notice that Russian special forces went to the rear of the Ukrainian forces to begin initial hostilities in order to obtain more information about placement of the Ukrainian forces. Artillery shelling occurred both from Russia itself and rebel held areas of Ukraine. I challenge the cheerleaders to face the reality that Russia is likely resupplying the rebels in order to capture the airport, then further supply the Donbas, then launch a final assault possibly all the way to Transnistra with a simultaneous assault from the Crimea.
Sanctions alone are not going to stop a Russian invasion. Putin knows that Obama and the EU will protest but that is likely all. Russia has lost $100 Billion defending the Ruble but it is not going to stop an invasion. My apologies in advance for being a pessimist.
The only way this ends is for Russia to give up the current President of Russia in favor of someone else. Anyone else
This sounds exactly like most posters on here when they discuss the President of the USA.
Nice try! You are ignoring IMO two key differences:
1. Strict adherence to term limits. Do you believe Putin will allow himself to be voted out of power? In contrast, Obama has two years remaining and will join the in absentia just like the two-term presidents before him.
2. Independent authority and power of Congress. I am not a student of the checks and balances of Russian government, neither how they are suppose to work and how they work in practice under a seemingly imperious leader.
This sounds exactly like most posters on here when they discuss the President of the USA.
This is a good synopsis of an interview by one of Putin's former advisors on the terrorists' elections.
http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/11/01/putin-plans-to-escalate-conflict-in-ukraine-after-donetsk-and-luhansk-elections/
I am not sure if this answers what you were trying to get at, but I hope it does.
Thanks, AC. I wasn't really after the "why," per se, just making the point that Obama seems to attract even more vitriol from members of this board than Putin does.
I was reading this morning and came across a couple articles that are talking about how the world is slowly moving away from the dollar...BECAUSE the USA has tried to use it as a weapon....the battle in Ukraine as being one example.
http://www.examiner.com/article/china-moves-on-u-s-with-currency-swap-and-non-dollar-trade-with-canada (http://www.examiner.com/article/china-moves-on-u-s-with-currency-swap-and-non-dollar-trade-with-canada)
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/china-wins--u-s--loses-at-apec-145943608.html (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/china-wins--u-s--loses-at-apec-145943608.html)
Currently the US stock market is sky-high, companies seem to be doing pretty well. It is hard to say what the consequences to us will be if the world slowly continues to move away from the dollar. There are a lot of voices out there, some predict very dire consequences. Overall, the boomerang that Putin talked about has been in slow motion, but it does appear to be playing a role in these countries moving away from the dollar. In many respects China has already passed us up as the greatest economy and that appears to continue to be the trend going forward.
Fathertime!
So,the world is moving away from the US Dollar eh ?
That would explain why the Russians are desperately trying to buy US Dollars and not Chinese Yuan.
Never let the facts get in the way of the fantasy eh ? :rolleyes:
Don't believe the hype. The dollar is here to stay for at least a decade or two more. Don't believe the hype about China either. Their problems are too numerous to mention. Success for one thing brings higher wages, which is part of the reason American companies are bringing manufacturing back home. Of course it also allows their new middle class to purchase the better American products. I see mostly upside.
People who are "tuned in" and "aware" of the mans personality understand his motives and goals. For a person who lives in another country and not "tuned in" to American principles and values it is confusing as to why many Americans seethe at the plastic man.
Believe me, this foreigner has learnt an awful lot about American politics from this forum over the last few years! However, like Gator, you're missing the point that I'm trying to make.
Apart from the die-hard Russophiles on here (nearly all of whom are Russian-born), the remaining members are all united in condemning Putin for the invasion of Ukraine and all the attendant consequences (Crimea, MH17, Donbas...), and I don't seriously think that anyone with at least a few brain cells could be unaware that he must ultimately be held responsible for one of the more despicable acts of reasonably modern geopolitics. In contrast, as nearly all the American posters continue to point out, Obama has done nothing.
While Americans can rant until the cows come home about the lack of progress under his Administration, the evils of Obamacare, and everything else that might possibly be laid at his door, you cannot, in any sincerity, say that any of Obama's policies or decisions have imperilled the very existence of another country, or caused hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians to have their lives uprooted (or, in the worst cases, ended).
So WHY, for crying out loud, do you treat your President so much worse than the megalomaniac ruling from the Kremlin? So, he's a weak President, maybe the worst you've had (at least for a long time) if posters here are to be believed. SO WHAT? He keeps to the rule of law - no part of your country has yet descended into total anarchy and, as has been pointed out in this thread, you only have to suffer him for another couple of years. Do you really think that the US will collapse and disappear in that time?
No, but I worry that while he is doing nothing, Ukraine might collapse!
China has been trying to spend their money wisely by investing in resources, since they have the money to do it.
...and by heavily investing in their military, as well.
Why don't you move?
Why aren't you fighting in Ukraine?
Fathertime!
For the same reason, you aren't fighting for Russia. Why don't you move?
While Americans can rant until the cows come home about the lack of progress under his Administration, the evils of Obamacare, and everything else that might possibly be laid at his door, you cannot, in any sincerity, say that any of Obama's policies or decisions have imperilled the very existence of another country, or caused hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians to have their lives uprooted (or, in the worst cases, ended).
So WHY, for crying out loud, do you treat your President so much worse than the megalomaniac ruling from the Kremlin? So, he's a weak President, maybe the worst you've had (at least for a long time) if posters here are to be believed. SO WHAT? He keeps to the rule of law - no part of your country has yet descended into total anarchy and, as has been pointed out in this thread, you only have to suffer him for another couple of years. Do you really think that the US will collapse and disappear in that time?
Agreed, but you can hardly hold that totally against him. There are many countries in Europe, for example, that have already been castigated by members here for doing nothing. I would also hazard a guess that, whatever he may want to do in private, he is quite probably hamstrung by the consensus he would have to reach with all of Congress and the Senate as to what course of action he might be allowed to propose - and it's pretty obvious, despite their rousing reception of Poroshenko, that the members of the US government are a law unto themselves, and that their self-interest (or that of their major donors) is far more important than saving a country on the other side of the Atlantic.
We were never and will never directly fight for Ukraine. Lip service, sanctions and some minor arms aid, yes. Actually, though they will never admit it, NATO officials and their member government are breathing a sigh of relief that Ukraine wasn't in NATO. The will to fight for a country that most people see, rightly or wrongly, as an historical appendage of Russia just isn't there. The real action starts in the Baltic States and Poland...
I believe that had Ukraine been a NATO member, Russia would never have invaded Crimea, nor sent troops to help destroy the Donbas region.
I believe that had Ukraine been a NATO member, Russia would never have invaded Crimea, nor sent troops to help destroy the Donbas region.
You are correct for this moment in time. However, with the new congress, I think we will see changes in our policy toward Ukraine. There are a number of congressmen that are pro-Ukrainian but could not do anything because Senate was ruled by the Democrats. Things will change in January.
True, but let's look at Estonia. Cyber attacks and holding a border guard hostage. No invasion, despite the "threat" to the Russian population by introducing language laws.
You are correct for this moment in time. However, with the new congress, I think we will see changes in our policy toward Ukraine. There are a number of congressmen that are pro-Ukrainian but could not do anything because Senate was ruled by the Democrats. Things will change in January.
:clapping: If Urkaine can hold-out til then I believe there will be a huge change in US foreign policy.
People who are "tuned in" and "aware" of the mans personality understand his motives and goals. For a person who lives in another country and not "tuned in" to American principles and values it is confusing as to why many Americans seethe at the plastic man.
Actually Kiwi no he does not keep to the law. He has violated his oath to uphold our Constitution on numerous times, which is why there are whispers that Republicans may impeach him. Richard Nixon was impeached for similar violations of the Constitution -- namely using the IRS to target his political enemies.
There you are completely wrong. With a strong leader in office, our Congress would be united in their willingness to help Ukraine. Since it's not Obama, look for our Congress to take the lead and take action on this issue in January 2015 as soon as they start.
I believe that had Ukraine been a NATO member, Russia would never have invaded Crimea, nor sent troops to help destroy the Donbas region.
I'd suggest this is why Putin's orchestrating the current troop build up in Russian held Ukraine. The Kremlin's probably thinking the same thing.
It's possible there may be a "winter offensive" to short circuit any logistical application to US policy changes.
Brass
Yep, because he has a killer tan. And I'd like to see the definition of "tuned in" and "aware" because I'm scratching my head at those.
Too bad Al Gore wasn't President and he suffered these mid-term losses, then you couldn't blame it on his tan.
Oh, a strong leader. Like Putin, perhaps?
No, like Reagan or Romney.
This is the worry. Yet the Ukrainians hold the strategic advantage by far. They are fighting for their homeland and their very existance and they know it well. Normal laws of war are that the ones defending their home territory usually have IIRC approximately a 4 to 1 advantage.
The fear I personally have is that Putin brings up his "little green men" from Crimea to their rear to attempt an encircling type of maneuvre. There is still the advantage we read about from Stirlitz and that is that the Ukrainians beat back the Russians in Odessa who had guns and the Ukrainians only had sticks and rocks.
I'm also hopeful that Canada and some other NATO country has secretly agreed to give Ukraine the latest heavy weapons that they need. Have you read the article by George Soros?
http://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/35700/
I don't think it is for the same reason. I'm not that interested in Russia. YOU are obsessed 24/7 with this conflict. Why again haven't you fought for Ukraine and your 'family'?
Fathertime!
LMFAO
Mitt "Weathervane" Romney?
Shirley, you can't be serious.
You forgot Georgie Boy. What about him? He invaded Iraq looking for Osama.
Actually Kiwi no he does not keep to the law. He has violated his oath to uphold our Constitution on numerous times, which is why there are whispers that Republicans may impeach him. Richard Nixon was impeached for similar violations of the Constitution -- namely using the IRS to target his political enemies.
I never saw a peep out of you when Georgie boy was wiping his ass with the Constitution. Care to elaborate on that? Maybe because he was one of you folks?
Classy
Was Watergate not a bigger scandal than anything Obama has done?
Left hand, right hand...this twain DO meet. Bush wasn't impeached...
Makes me miss Carter
Laughable coming from you! :thumbsup:
Fathertime!
You praise me too lavish brophy. Same some of that lovin' for your wifeI'm sorry I was so mean to you...I know you are harmless.
Was Watergate not a bigger scandal than anything Obama has done?
One speaker discussed the significance of politics and athletics and he mentioned that President Ford was an athlete....immediately the crowd roared a thunderous "BOOOOO!" The Russian coach had no idea what was happening, and the Russian translator whispered a quick explanation in his ear. The coach had a sly smile of amazement, and just looked around at the thousands of fans who were booing. He shook his head and I could read his mind, "How is it okay to boo the President? What a country!"
That's because you wouldn't be frothing at your mouth. Vocal? Yes. Bordering in lunatic obsession? No
As the kiwiman was trying to understand, Putler gets a nicer treatment here than the Nigr does.
I'm sorry I was so mean to you...I know you are harmless.
Fathertime!
Exactly. And what our Kiwi friend also doesn't seem to get is that Bush Jr. or Nixon are no longer President. Why complain about past Presidents? We've got short-term memories and we like to vent about the current guy.
Are you tired of Obamacare, the burning of the Constitution, reckless spending, endless debt, and ceaseless partisan bickering?
I know you are... and you are not alone!
http://www.runbenrun.org/adpetition?recruiter_id=765959 (http://www.runbenrun.org/adpetition?recruiter_id=765959)
Mr. Shields, a genial 55-year-old, spent 20 years as a Republican lawmaker, ending up as the leader of the Missouri Senate before term limits forced him to step down. In 2010, he became chief operating officer of one of Truman’s hospitals, and in July he succeeded longtime Truman CEO John W. Bluford III.
Now Mr. Shields, whose office décor includes a collection of elephant statues, must press the legislature’s current Republican leaders to accept the Affordable Care Act’s expansion of Medicaid, the federal-state insurance for low-income people. Expanded Medicaid would be a financial lifeline for Truman, which is losing money as it cares for a large population of uninsured patients.
Mr. Shields said he tells lawmakers he understands their situation: “I’ve been in your shoes. I’ve made these tough decisions.” Indeed, he voted for a major retrenchment of Missouri’s Medicaid program in 2005, when about 100,000 people were cut from the rolls. He said the move was difficult but necessary amid a budget crunch, and that he always aimed for it to be reversed when there was funding to do so.
Yep, because he has a killer tan. And I'd like to see the definition of "tuned in" and "aware" because I'm scratching my head at those.
Let's see:
Obamacare.
Two words for you: Bill Clinton. ;)
Lets see: According to the architect of the law you are the stupid American voter? I did not say this, so if you have a beef with the terminology contact Mr Gruber
So your answer is to show a petition for a Token guy from the sidelines.
Yes the smart informed voters are very "in tune" to deception and propaganda. Many Americans knew the false narratives about how good Obamacare was. It was all a farce. Now we have proof of what the "aware voter" knew from day one. This from the man who helped design the law.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=G790p0LcgbI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=G790p0LcgbI)
He's still in denial. He can't accept the fact that the American people have spoken and he lost...
You are the one who voted for a token guy without any qualifications, and now you are unable to accept defeat graciously.
Russians trying to intimidate the Aussies.
Third Australian warship sent to halt Russian flotilla bound for G20 in Brisbane
..."A THIRD Australian warship has been dispatched to intercept a Russian flotilla steaming towards the G20 summit in Brisbane and a fourth navy vessel is ready to divert to the area."...
http://www.news.com.au/national/third-australian-warship-sent-to-halt-russian-flotilla-bound-for-g20-in-brisbane/story-fncynjr2-1227122396768
Nyet to Russia’s old warships
..."The supposed fearsome flotilla of Russian warships despatched to waters off Australia as a “show of strength’’ by President Vladimir Putin are old and unreliable Cold War era vessels accompanied by a tugboat in case of breakdown.
Both the missile cruiser Varyag and the destroyer Marshal Shaposhnikov were built before 1986 with the end of the Cold War bringing on defence cuts that saw almost two decades of decline in the Russian surface fleet"...
http://www.afr.com/p/national/nyet_to_russia_old_warships_WF8J0upKq3T9BnvCgichCO
Brass
I'm sorry, but now I'm REALLY confused! I thought Obama WON the election - isn't that why he's your President? Your mid-term Congressional and Senate elections surely don't change that fact.
It doesn't cease to amaze me the short-term political memory of the Americans.
You mean like this? (when the ship is sinking the rats all bail)
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/11/13/pelosi-cited-obamacare-architect-in-push-for-law-now-claims-hasnt-heard-him/ (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/11/13/pelosi-cited-obamacare-architect-in-push-for-law-now-claims-hasnt-heard-him/)
So that's it?
You cannot answer the question and instead post some inflammatory reporting from the yellow press.
Wow, how intellectual of you.
Damn, I give up.
The President is responsible for his party losing the mid-term elections. The overwhelming defeat that his party suffered is a reflection on him and his policies. He is now a lame duck President. Yes, the mid-term election changed everything. He has very little power except to try to cirmumvent the Congress, which is a violation of our Constitution. Of course with him that's par for the course.
Now if he was Bill Clinton or Ronald Reagan he would show some humility and finally be a public servant and make some compromises with the Congress -- but he's not.
I found Dr. Snyder's perspective in this article interesting. I had not thought of Russia's position from the perspective he outlines.
http://m.en.delfi.lt/article.php?id=66368672 (http://m.en.delfi.lt/article.php?id=66368672)
Doll,
Just because Putin and his spokesman say something, does not make it Pravda.
You grew up in Russia. Did the government always tell you the truth?
Why do I say Bullshit? "no official Russian troops on Ukrainian soil,"
"coup d'état orchestrated by Western nations,
"immediately endorsed."
The reason these countries joined NATO is Russia's fault, and it happened over a long period of time in three stages. First, the bordering countries and other Warsaw Pact countries had a bad taste from how the Soviets treated them for 45 years.
Second, after the collapse of the Soviet grip, the economies of these countries improved only after weaning themselves from Russia and drawing closer to the West.
Third, upon developing a viable economy aligned with the West, joining NATO was natural,particularly with Russia was behaving like an angry bear. So NATO never would have happened if the Soviets had been better "masters," if Russia had helped these bordering countries develop their economies in the years after the collapse of the Soviet grip, and if Russia had been more about peace.
Personally, I do think what occurred was a coup d'etat. However, it was not orchestrated by Western nations, and it was replaced with a new democratically elected president and Rada.
.http://news.liga.net/news/politics/3740325-obnarodovana_tablitsa_po_poteryam_rossiyskoy_armii_v_ukraine.htm
An interesting piece on how the Donbas conflict started in Donetsk.
http://ukrainianweek.com/Politics/126819 (http://ukrainianweek.com/Politics/126819)
An interesting piece on how the Donbas conflict started in Donetsk.
http://ukrainianweek.com/Politics/126819 (http://ukrainianweek.com/Politics/126819)
The man in the photo is Rinat Akhmetov, a Donbas oligarch.
Given the nature of the article, the author's name was withheld.
Sometimes reality is rosy. Stop and smell those roses, LT.
It is realistic? None of us can predict the future, but tonight at 8pm in Moscow on 31 December, he is pretty much on target.
As with all things in war and love, tomorrow could be very different.
Its a bit rosy.
In an interview this week with National Public Radio, Mr. Obama offered an apt description of the progressive foreign-policy vision. “When it comes to ISIL, us devoting another trillion dollars after having been involved in big occupations of countries that didn’t turn out all that well” is something he is hesitant to do.
Instead, he said, “We need to spend a trillion dollars rebuilding our schools, our roads, our basic science and research here in the United States; that is going to be a recipe for our long-term security and success.”
That $1 trillion figure is one of the President’s famous straw-man arguments. But what is the recipe if an ISIL or other global rogue doesn’t get his memo?
Oh?
I'm pretty sure that your Christian soul would prefer this piece of neocon bullshevism, right?
Progressives and Disorder
The next two years may be the most dangerous since the Cold War ended.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/progressives-and-disorder-1419985886
Another trillion dollars wasted in military adventurism to make the world Christian, right?
Sometimes reality is rosy. Stop and smell those roses, LT.
It is realistic? None of us can predict the future, but tonight at 8pm in Moscow on 31 December, he is pretty much on target.
As with all things in war and love, tomorrow could be very different.
Christian soldiers need not take lessons of history from atheists who stand on the bodies of millions killed in totalitarian genocides perpetrated by atheist regimes.
C'mon, make JC proud.
You will get your wish someday Muzh. But remember we BOTH will die someday. Until then , , ,
Until then I can start making arrangements for your deployment in Donetsk....
Sure. Private message me and we can discuss it face to face!
Security released new evidence of the presence of Russian special forces in the Donetsk region
What is written here pretty much is in line with what Mrs B has written in the past here( correct MrsB?) --I believe Russian regulars( as in special forces-maybe very specialised forces) were in eastern Ukraine very early to assist the locals--but it was not very long before it was Russians directing activities-- and trying to direct all activities.
youtube is the evidence? Again? :D
Security released new evidence of the presence of Russian special forces in the Donetsk region
Security released another interception negotiations, confirming that the Interior Ministry in Donetsk region is Russian commandos seized
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APQaE_gaUeI
A very good article on Yanukovych's fall in the NYT -
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/04/world/europe/ukraine-leader-was-defeated-even-before-he-was-ousted.html
Good article Boe, thanks for posting.
'm fine, i think)) I even do not know how to describe my new life in kiev) frankly speaking, I guess I even do not have it) my daily route is the same from day to day: home- work-military hospital-home.
I did not tell you that from August till now I'm a volunteer in military hospital. I held our wounded soldiers. It's rather hard not to cry when you want to do it. In the same time it's so great to see how soldier starts to walk again. Hard to smile and be happy but for them I'll do it.
I could not build a high wall around me and abandon thoughts about war in my country, in my city. Many people in Ukraine do not think about war cause it is some where, not in their city. They prefer not to think about awful situations. Everything is great for them.
I can not accept this philosophy
... I've gone through lot of things ... I've lost my life in Luhansk but in the same time I obtain new one. I know how to start everything from the scratch and how to find power ... my relatives are still there and my father too ... It's awfully hard, when you read that ur street was bombed and u called to father and he didn ' T answer ... 10min with the horrible minds ... and finally he answered ... I guess I've Seen Almost everything: Bodies and Souls wounded, Dazed sight etc ... So, this is my new Life in Kiev) ) sorry for long story))
Some of the conclusions are that this will likely remain a frozen like conflict, and the US will go no further than sanctions.
In 2014 I was banned for using the real name of the Russian führer. Later some members asked me to come back. But I did not have time and desire. I joined the Ukrainian army because I would rather fight offline. For more than a year I have been serving at Odessa airport as a border guard. I have not taken part in fighting but now I know how to shoot (and am quite good at it) and how to fight. Now though I am about to be discharged and return to normal life as an interpreter and tour guide. But I have my uniform and friends and can get my AK-74 quickly if needed. Odessa is safe so long as I am alive and here.
But I did not come back here for business or discussions (especially with the wata). All I want to say is to repeat what I said before:
POO TEEN IS HUYL0!!! (http://i.piccy.info/i9/64f442551e31e4a2ffc62d9c244f3e13/1459061948/87847/991174/huyl0.gif)
ПУТИН - ХУЙЛО!!!
Now you can ban me once again. Good luck.
I joined the Ukrainian army because I would rather fight offline. For more than a year I have been serving at Odessa airport as a border guard. I have not taken part in fighting but now I know how to shoot (and am quite good at it) and how to fight. Now though I am about to be discharged and return to normal life as an interpreter and tour guide. But I have my uniform and friends and can get my AK-74 quickly if needed. Odessa is safe so long as I am alive and here.
Why do you think Ukraine discharged you and probably others so quickly after you signed up?Because President Poroshenko signed the respective decree on Friday about demobilization of the servicemen enlisted during the 4th wave of mobilization.
I volunteered for it but many others just had to do it. I never wanted to be a professional soldier even though my grandfather and father were officers. So I was not going to sign a contract for many years but was willing to serve a year to learn to shoot, etc.
But I have my uniform and friends and can get my AK-74 quickly if needed. Odessa is safe so long as I am alive and here.
Now that winter is winding down in Ukraine, it would seem that the Seperatists are become more active. I have attached a website that monitors the Social Media reports of incidents in Eastern Ukraine.
www.liveuamap.com
It bears noting that two months ago the map was basically empty. Now it reports heavy engagement. Looks like Putin's proxy war is heating up again.
I have said from day 1-- if Ukraine had access to western technology of defensive weapons they could push the Russians out of Ukraine without western ground troops being needed.
Shameful we have failed them in this. Instead we flood weapons and funds into countries that despise us.
It has not exactly been quiet- more Russians killed in March than in any previous month.
Some "new"tactics learnt fro Ukraine's western allies have been used to good effect. The better training ( & experience gathered) is proving very effective and is saving good Ukrainians
lives.
Ukrainian morale is good and the troops more confident. Russian morale is not good as troops now understand they are fighting a determined Ukraine.Reports of Russian troops refusing to go and fight in Ukraine are increasing-- and makes one wonder how long Putin can persist.
I have said from day 1-- if Ukraine had access to western technology of defensive weapons they could push the Russians out of Ukraine without western ground troops being needed.
I would be interested in seeing your figures and your source.
Given that my posts with the links get deleted-you will need to look in other places.
It has not exactly been quiet- more Russians killed in March than in any previous month.
I would be interested in seeing your figures and your source.
You are not moderated for providing links. You are moderated for cutting and pasting reams of text from those links, contrary to forum policy.
Igor, I wish you luck and safety. You can take pride in the nobility of your service. :clapping:
What particular training did you receive?Not much. Basically, I learned how to shoot and handle the rifle. I was a border guard and we did not have time for training, there was always a job to do... What we did did not require much training, just plenty of time and attention.
If you wander thru Cherkasy sometime next winter stop by for a piva or 3!Deal!
Now, use that AK-47 on all the thieves in the Rada.You are reading my mind.
No, you hadn't won the war. Iran won, as the Sunni minority that ruled Iraq was replaced by an Iranian friendly Shia PM who routinely dismissed Sunni minority concerns. That is why many Sunnis support, or, at a minimum, are indifferent to ISIS.
I doubt it was PNAC's intention for thousands of Americans to die in order to bolster Iran's desire to be a regional power.