My view of the war

[fathertime]

It took several years for US casualties to reach 2,000.  Ukraine claims that as many as 2,000 Russians are dead because of Putin's war:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/2014/09/08/346735504/some-in-russia-admit-their-troops-volunteer-in-ukraine

Those killed died in six month period.

Russia is a smaller country than the US.  It is very different, but those statistics if true are staggering.  I think Ukraine should resume the fighting and even escalate the conflict by bombing positions on the other side of the border.

What a grand mistake that would be.... but for the haters... anything to kill 1000 Russians....even if it costs 50,000 Ukrainians to do it.


  They will not be bombing interior Russia, so you are just dreaming.   If Russia decides to get serious about this, Ukraine will be obliterated, so deescalating is the way to go.


Fathertime!   

[GQBlues]

....The legislation repealed was one giving Russian regional status as an official language.  It did not ban the Russian language, which is constitutionally protected.  I always thought that repeal was a mistake as well, as it came at a rather volatile time.  However, it did nothing to change the ability of Russian speakers to use Russian in their daily lives, listen to Russian media, enrol their children in Russian schools, etc.  Government in Ukraine generally has been conducted (officially) in Ukrainian.  Business in Ukraine, overall, has always been, and still is, conducted in Russian. 


Anything you read, anywhere, about Russian language in Ukraine being threatened, of Russians being oppressed, of Russians being denied the right to speak Russian is pure BS.

Boethius-

What you wrote above is wrong.

Apparently what the Parliament adopted last February 2014 was in fact the removal of 2012 language law that protected languages spoken by minorities with at least 10% population in Ukraine. I repeat, the Ukrainian Parliament adopted a bill to repeal this law. It was a broad sweeping attempt to abolish not only the Russian language, but Hungarian, Romanian, etc...

http://www.politics.hu/20140225/scrapping-language-law-could-question-new-ukrainian-admins-democratic-commitment-says-foreign-ministry/

http://www.romea.cz/en/news/world/ukrainian-parliament-abolishes-language-law-neighboring-states-protest

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140303/188063675/Ukraines-2012-Language-Law-to-Stay-Until-New-Bill-Ready--Turchynov.html

This is exactly what Poroshenko talked about in that interview.

[lordtiberius]

If Russia decides to get serious about this, Ukraine will be obliterated

Are you justifying Putin's use of nuclear weapons?

[fathertime]

Are you justifying Putin's use of nuclear weapons?

No, that is not even in the conversation at this point.


Fathertime!   

[lordtiberius]

No, that is not even in the conversation at this point.


Fathertime!

The only thing the Russians have in their arsenal that can obliterate are nuclear weapons, which they still after 23 years after the fall of communism still have that works.  The Russian military is great at killing civilians and unarmed people - not good with everything else.

[Boethius]

Boethius-

What you wrote above is wrong.

Apparently what the Parliament adopted last February 2014 was in fact the removal of 2012 language law that protected languages spoken by minorities with at least 10% population in Ukraine. I repeat, the Ukrainian Parliament adopted a bill to repeal this law. It was a broad sweeping attempt to abolish not only the Russian language, but Hungarian, Romanian, etc...

http://www.politics.hu/20140225/scrapping-language-law-could-question-new-ukrainian-admins-democratic-commitment-says-foreign-ministry/

http://www.romea.cz/en/news/world/ukrainian-parliament-abolishes-language-law-neighboring-states-protest

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140303/188063675/Ukraines-2012-Language-Law-to-Stay-Until-New-Bill-Ready--Turchynov.html

This is exactly what Poroshenko talked about in that interview.

No, minority languages have always been protected by Ukraine's constitution.  Article X of the constitution states:

In Ukraine, the free development, use and protection of Russian, and other languages of national minorities of Ukraine, is guaranteed.

What the law repealed did was give Russian, and other languages spoken by at least 10% of the population, the status of a regional language, and Russian was on the road to official language status.

The language issue was widely debated when Ukraine's constitution was drafted in 1996.  After much consideration, it was determined that Ukraine would be the official language of the Ukrainian nation, and Russian (predominantly) and other languages spoken by minorities would have their rights guaranteed constitutionally.

Yanukovych initially stated the language issue was settled.  However, as parliamentary elections approached, his Party of Regions was in trouble, so, he introduced a law which was intended to give Russian official language status (this was a platform promise in his initial run for the presidency.  It was abandoned as too controversial when he first won).  That meant initially, regional status, and eventually, status equal to Ukrainian nationally.  Other minorities were included on the advice of the EU.  However, this was really intended to appeal to Russian speakers who support the Party of Regions.

If you knew Ukraine's history, you would know that the Ukrainian language has been oppressed for hundreds of years, at times, forbidden to be published, and Ukrainian schools closed.  The Soviets theoretically allowed Ukrainian to be the "official" language of the Ukrainian RFSR, but practically, Russian dominated, as all official documents were in Russian, most media was in Russian, to advance in society, one had to speak Russian, etc.  The constitutional provision was debated, and although his Ukrainian is weak, then President Kuchma agreed to the provision in Ukraine's constitution.  Tymoshenko's Ukrainian was weak, but she, too, agreed to the provision, and she now speaks mostly fluent Ukrainian.  Yanukovych's Ukrainian was weak, but he, too, initially agreed to the provision.


Outside the cities of Eastern Ukraine, the population speaks Ukrainian or surzhik, not Russian.  If you go to regions around Chernobyl, the population speaks a mix of Ukrainian, Russian, and Belarussian, not one of the languages "purely".  On the other forum, a Russian posted a link claiming it to be of the Ukrainian army, based on the language they were speaking.  It was, in fact, a video from Donetsk, of locals, speaking what is locally spoken as Russian.  So, the law appeals even in the so called "Russian" regions to urbanites, and even then, to a minority, as relatively few Ukrainians speak "pure" Russian.


The law repealed did not repeal the use of Russian.  What it did was remove its path to official language status.  There was no banning of Russian media.  Even today, I can link to Kyiv radio stations that broadcast in Russian.  When callers call in, they will usually speak Russian, even if the radio host is speaking Ukrainian.  That is the case through all of Central Ukraine and east.  The Ukrainians on this forum (missA, Stirlitz, ghost of moon goddess) all speak Russian fluently.  I would hazard a guess they speak it in their daily lives.  Stirlitz lives in a city where almost no one uses Ukrainian in his/her daily life.  Ask him how "oppressed" he has felt, linguistically, since the collapse of the USSR.


The reason repealing the law was a mistake was because it was used by Ukraine's enemies, predominantly in Crimea, which wasn't affected by the law in any event, as they were a constitutionally protected autonomous region.  That followed shortly with its soft invasion by Russia and the vote for independence, with 120% plus voter turnout in some regions.  It has been used by Putin to justify sending terrorists to Ukraine, and in arming local thugs to "protect" Russian speakers who had lived with the very same lack of Russian laws for two decades, and still speak Russian today. 


Therefore, your understanding is still flawed.

[missAmeno]

Apparently what the Parliament adopted last February 2014 was in fact the removal of 2012 language law that protected languages spoken by minorities with at least 10% population in Ukraine. I repeat, the Ukrainian Parliament adopted a bill to repeal this law. It was a broad sweeping attempt to abolish not only the Russian language, but Hungarian, Romanian, etc...

Wow, after months of blindness and many many ignorant posts, GQB shown tiny sparks of understanding of what actually happened. Still long way to go to get the grasp of what language law of 2012 is about and that parliament still required president's signature but at least some tiny progress. Shocking. 

[sleepycat]

Some tiny progress is preferable to no progress...

[Faux Pas]

I want all those concerned to read this and absorb this.  The lives of dead Russian soldiers are a political liability to Putin.  That is sick.

You try hard to act like you understand but statements like this reveal that you do not. 2000 dead Russian soldiers are of no consequence to Putin. 100,000 or more deaths and he's not going to lose a moments sleep. You don't understand what is at play.

Russians are whipped up in a frenzy and being fed the same shit sandwich they enjoyed in the Soviet days. It's getting tasty again. Putin is nothing more than a mafia boss with armies and nuclear weapons. It doesn't matter to him or his regime how many Russians get killed. It's all about achieving his goals. He's being cautious because he still wants to commerce with the West. It's their money that will keep him in power and make him stronger. He may at some point reject one or the other, Western capital or Ukraine. It's becoming clearer than he can't have both. He's been playing this like he can have both. We'll have to wait and see the outcome.

However, don't fool yourself. It doesn't matter to Putin how many die. The majority of Russian will believe everything he says.

[missAmeno]

Where can I get the Russian lyrics to the final song?

если ты гражданин, если ты президент
для тебя есть закон, для тебя есть запрет
из казны не воруй, и не лги никогда
будь открытым для всех, отвечай за слова
восемь лет президент и опять кандидат
посмотри нам вглаза и закрой свой мандат
доверяли тебе, а ты врал много лет
применяя во всём свой ГБшный секрет

Ты такой же, как я - человек, а не бог
я такой же, как ты - человек, а не лох
не дадим больше врать, не дадим воровать
мы Свободы десант, с нами родина мать
ты обычный чиновник, не царь и не бог
для тебя человек тупой бандерлог
цвет ленты Свободы для всех позитив
и лишь для тебя презерватив

я смотрю на тебя, на портреты твои
ты нам врёшь до сих пор, как медведи твои
мы устали смотреть на позор всей страны
с нищетой деревень рядом замки твои
разхвалил оборонку и армию сдал
на солдат положил, офицеров послал
мы тебе не простим все заслуги твои
мы требуем мира, тиран - уходи!

Ты такой же, как я - человек, а не бог
я такой же, как ты - человек, а не лох
не дадим больше врать, не дадим воровать
мы Свободы десант, с нами Родина-мать
ты обычный чиновник, не царь и не бог
для тебя человек тупой бандерлог
цвет ленты Свободы для всех позитив
и лишь для тебя презерватив

вспомни наших дедов, воевавших с СС
вспомни наших гвардейцев сошедших с небес
в нашем сердце остались Берлин и Афган
ну а сердце ЕдРосов - личный карман
нынче честь не в почете, достоинства нет
есть только системный отблеск монет
машины и тряпки, глобальный вещизм
это прогнившей системы цинизм

забыли культуру, а в школах ЕГЭ
дипломы за деньги, и взятки везде
лечиться бесплатно не может старик
это прогнившей системы тупик

Ты такой же, как я - человек, а не бог
Я такой же, как ты - человек, а не лох
не дадим больше врать, не дадим воровать
мы Свободы десант, с нами Родина-мать
ты обычный чиновник, не царь и не бог
для тебя человек тупой бандерлог
цвет ленты Свободы для всех позитив
и лишь для тебя презерватив


My translation (sorry if not perfect but I tried my best)

If you are a citizen, if you are the president
there exist the law for you, there exist prohibition for you
Do not steal from the Treasury, do not lie ever
Be open to all, answer for the words
Eight years have been the president and the candidate again
Look into our eyes and close your mandate
We trusted to you and you lied for many years
applying throughout everything your KGB secret

You're just like me - a man and not a god
I'm the same as you - a man and not a goof
We will not let lie anymore, will not let to steal
we are Liberty Troopers, with us mother homeland
you are a regular clerk, not a king and not a god
for you person is a stupid banderlog*
color of Liberty ribbon is for all a positive
and just for you it is condom

I look at you, on your portraits
you're lying to us all the time same as your bears
we are tired of seeing the shame of the whole country
with the poverty of villages next to your castles 
destroyed defense industry and betrayed the army
sh*ted on soldiers, told officers to f*ck off
we do not forgive to you all your achievements
we demand peace, the tyrant - go away!

You're just like me - a man and not a god
I'm the same as you - a man and not a goof
We will not let lie anymore, will not let to steal
we are Liberty Troopers, with us mother homeland
you are a regular clerk, not a king and not a god
for you person is a stupid banderlog*
color of Liberty ribbon is for all a positive
and just for you it is condom

remember our grandfathers who fought with the SS
Remember our the guardsmen descended from heaven
in our hearts remained Berlin and Afgan
well and the heart of EdRosov is personal pocket
These days honor is not respected, no dignity
there is only a system of reflection of the coins
car and rags, global materialism
this is rotten system's cynicism

forgotten culture, and in schools USE**
diplomas are for money, and bribes everywhere
the elderly man can not be treated for free**
this is rotten system's deadlock

You're just like me - a man and not a god
I'm the same as you - a man and not a goof
We will not let lie anymore, will not let to steal
we are Liberty Troopers, with us mother homeland
you are a regular clerk, not a king and not a god
for you person is a stupid banderlog*
color of Liberty ribbon is for all a positive
and just for you it is condom


* banderlog - a term used in Rudyard Kipling's The Jungle Book to describe the monkeys. Its a term Putin used to refer to demonstrators
** USE - Unified State Exam (Единый государственный экзамен) - exam in secondary schools of RF
***be treated for free - in this case meant receive free medical care

[Drew]

You try hard to act like you understand but statements like this reveal that you do not. 2000 dead Russian soldiers are of no consequence to Putin. 100,000 or more deaths and he's not going to lose a moments sleep. You don't understand what is at play.

Russians are whipped up in a frenzy and being fed the same shit sandwich they enjoyed in the Soviet days. It's getting tasty again. Putin is nothing more than a mafia boss with armies and nuclear weapons. It doesn't matter to him or his regime how many Russians get killed. It's all about achieving his goals. He's being cautious because he still wants to commerce with the West. It's their money that will keep him in power and make him stronger. He may at some point reject one or the other, Western capital or Ukraine. It's becoming clearer than he can't have both. He's been playing this like he can have both. We'll have to wait and see the outcome.

However, don't fool yourself. It doesn't matter to Putin how many die. The majority of Russian will believe everything he says.

Hard to believe actually; but unfortunately I worry you are correct.

[fathertime]

The only thing the Russians have in their arsenal that can obliterate are nuclear weapons, which they still after 23 years after the fall of communism still have that works.  The Russian military is great at killing civilians and unarmed people - not good with everything else.

This is not correct.  Russia has a very powerful military in addition to nukes....


Fathertime! 

[Belvis]

Putin is nothing more than a mafia boss with armies and nuclear weapons. It doesn't matter to him or his regime how many Russians get killed. It's all about achieving his goals.

I'll illustrate the above statement to complete the image of president Putin:


Well, he can have different appearances. It depends on personal attitude.

West leaders see him as a respectable mafia boss:


Desperate Ukrainians try to promote more radical image:


My personal view concurs with the assessment of  Tony Brenton, former UK ambassador to Moscow (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/vladimir-putin/11084600/Its-time-to-back-away-from-the-Russian-wolf.html):

Putin, of whom I saw a fair amount as UK ambassador to Moscow, is not an ideologically driven fanatic, but much closer to Talleyrand – the calculating, pragmatic rebuilder of his country’s status in the world.

[lordtiberius]

This is not correct.  Russia has a very powerful military in addition to nukes....


Fathertime!

If Russia was capable of obliterating anything, it would have done so in its current zones of conflict: Syria, Ukraine and Chechnya.  Also are you admitting that Russia has invaded Ukraine or are you still denying that Winnie the Pooh? 

[missAmeno]

Belvis, please, could you describe Putin based on his words below. Calculating? Pragmatic? Rebuilder?



As well if you could, please, explain how based on reality below you can see Putin as rebuilder of Russia's status in the world instead of builder of his own status in Russia and the world.



versus



and



and



and



and




Let me know if you wish any more examples of how Putin rebuilding Russia to make comparison 

[lordtiberius]

если ты гражданин, если ты президент
для тебя есть закон, для тебя есть запрет
из казны не воруй, и не лги никогда
будь открытым для всех, отвечай за слова
восемь лет президент и опять кандидат
посмотри нам вглаза и закрой свой мандат
доверяли тебе, а ты врал много лет
применяя во всём свой ГБшный секрет

Ты такой же, как я - человек, а не бог
я такой же, как ты - человек, а не лох
не дадим больше врать, не дадим воровать
мы Свободы десант, с нами родина мать
ты обычный чиновник, не царь и не бог
для тебя человек тупой бандерлог
цвет ленты Свободы для всех позитив
и лишь для тебя презерватив

я смотрю на тебя, на портреты твои
ты нам врёшь до сих пор, как медведи твои
мы устали смотреть на позор всей страны
с нищетой деревень рядом замки твои
разхвалил оборонку и армию сдал
на солдат положил, офицеров послал
мы тебе не простим все заслуги твои
мы требуем мира, тиран - уходи!

Ты такой же, как я - человек, а не бог
я такой же, как ты - человек, а не лох
не дадим больше врать, не дадим воровать
мы Свободы десант, с нами Родина-мать
ты обычный чиновник, не царь и не бог
для тебя человек тупой бандерлог
цвет ленты Свободы для всех позитив
и лишь для тебя презерватив

вспомни наших дедов, воевавших с СС
вспомни наших гвардейцев сошедших с небес
в нашем сердце остались Берлин и Афган
ну а сердце ЕдРосов - личный карман
нынче честь не в почете, достоинства нет
есть только системный отблеск монет
машины и тряпки, глобальный вещизм
это прогнившей системы цинизм

забыли культуру, а в школах ЕГЭ
дипломы за деньги, и взятки везде
лечиться бесплатно не может старик
это прогнившей системы тупик

Ты такой же, как я - человек, а не бог
Я такой же, как ты - человек, а не лох
не дадим больше врать, не дадим воровать
мы Свободы десант, с нами Родина-мать
ты обычный чиновник, не царь и не бог
для тебя человек тупой бандерлог
цвет ленты Свободы для всех позитив
и лишь для тебя презерватив


My translation (sorry if not perfect but I tried my best)

If you are a citizen, if you are the president
there exist the law for you, there exist prohibition for you
Do not steal from the Treasury, do not lie ever
Be open to all, answer for the words
Eight years have been the president and the candidate again
Look into our eyes and close your mandate
We trusted to you and you lied for many years
applying throughout everything your KGB secret

You're just like me - a man and not a god
I'm the same as you - a man and not a goof
We will not let lie anymore, will not let to steal
we are Liberty Troopers, with us mother homeland
you are a regular clerk, not a king and not a god
for you person is a stupid banderlog*
color of Liberty ribbon is for all a positive
and just for you it is condom

I look at you, on your portraits
you're lying to us all the time same as your bears
we are tired of seeing the shame of the whole country
with the poverty of villages next to your castles 
destroyed defense industry and betrayed the army
sh*ted on soldiers, told officers to f*ck off
we do not forgive to you all your achievements
we demand peace, the tyrant - go away!

You're just like me - a man and not a god
I'm the same as you - a man and not a goof
We will not let lie anymore, will not let to steal
we are Liberty Troopers, with us mother homeland
you are a regular clerk, not a king and not a god
for you person is a stupid banderlog*
color of Liberty ribbon is for all a positive
and just for you it is condom

remember our grandfathers who fought with the SS
Remember our the guardsmen descended from heaven
in our hearts remained Berlin and Afgan
well and the heart of EdRosov is personal pocket
These days honor is not respected, no dignity
there is only a system of reflection of the coins
car and rags, global materialism
this is rotten system's cynicism

forgotten culture, and in schools USE**
diplomas are for money, and bribes everywhere
the elderly man can not be treated for free**
this is rotten system's deadlock

You're just like me - a man and not a god
I'm the same as you - a man and not a goof
We will not let lie anymore, will not let to steal
we are Liberty Troopers, with us mother homeland
you are a regular clerk, not a king and not a god
for you person is a stupid banderlog*
color of Liberty ribbon is for all a positive
and just for you it is condom


* banderlog - a term used in Rudyard Kipling's The Jungle Book to describe the monkeys. Its a term Putin used to refer to demonstrators
** USE - Unified State Exam (Единый государственный экзамен) - exam in secondary schools of RF
***be treated for free - in this case meant receive free medical care

I love this song and I listen to it at least once a day.  I want to commit it to memory when I don't have my music machine with me.  THANK YOU!

I guess the guy who wrote this is harassed by the Guidos from the Hotel Siloveeki.  What a heart he has in writing this song.

[AC]

Sanctions are not hurting Putin right away; he intends to double-down on Ukraine:

[Faux Pas]

My personal view concurs with the assessment of  Tony Brenton, former UK ambassador to Moscow (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/vladimir-putin/11084600/Its-time-to-back-away-from-the-Russian-wolf.html):

Belvis
Breton is of the same opinion as Fathertime on this forum is and, like FT it is his prerogative to be wrong. This is based on the premise that because the neighborhood bully wants to have influence and dictate how his neighbors live and under what rules. It is better to appease the bully than to have to fight him. Russia wouldn't do it, why do you expect Ukraine should? Because Russia has a bigger military and nukes, Ukraine should simply submit to Putin's idea of a perfect Ukraine?

Breton's words
Russia’s objectives – a neutral Ukraine, and constitutional safeguards for the population in the East – are not impossible to meet. We do deals with China, with Iran, with North Korea. Uncomfortable as it may be, the time has come to do a deal with Putin. Part of this should be easy; Ukraine is in any case going to be in no condition to join Nato for the foreseeable future. Negotiating an acceptable level of autonomy for East Ukraine will be much harder. The Russians are in possession, and will not let go until their concerns are met.

There can be no neutral Ukraine when Putin dictates rules for the neighbor Ukraine. Putin has no right to demand how Ukraine conducts their rule of order. He invaded Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. "Invaded".  Putin has no right to invade a sovereign country under a false flag operation if he wishes to be taken serious as a world leader. Ukraine is a sovereign nation that rid themselves of Putin's puppet, because he was Putin's puppet and a thief. They have that right.

Any Western nation that would agree to Putin's demands open themselves up to be invaded by Putin or anyone else. If you are Ukrainian, Putin very much resembles Adolf Hitler and rightfully so. Putin has every right to cut Ukraine off completely from every thing Russian, call all Russians home from Ukraine, build a China like wall at the border if he wishes but, he doesn't have the right to invade Ukrainian lands or dictate with whom or how Ukraine should function.

It would appear that Breton has a man crush on Putin. Or, maybe he doesn't wish to end up like Litvinenko. Read this summation by Breton as he was leaving his ambassador post in Moscow .

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1063227/British-Ambassador-Moscow-I-besieged-Putin-thugs.html

[fathertime]

Belvis
Breton is of the same opinion as Fathertime on this forum is and, like FT it is his prerogative to be wrong. This is based on the premise that because the neighborhood bully wants to have influence and dictate how his neighbors live and under what rules. It is better to appease the bully than to have to fight him. Russia wouldn't do it, why do you expect Ukraine should? Because Russia has a bigger military and nukes, Ukraine should simply submit to Putin's idea of a perfect Ukraine?

Maybe it is wrong or maybe it is right to take the 'less worse option'.  I've always assumed there were some details, factoids that we (the public) aren't fully aware of as it relates to this situation.  From what I've read thus far, it seems to me that Ukraine would be better served to ultimately relent and make the best deal possible, and that may well wind up happening.  There will be a different time, and different circumstances where they might actually have a chance, but right now it seems to me that they will wind up getting slaughtered.  But hey, they are the ones there, let them choose to do what they want to do.


Fathertime!   

[Boethius]

A good explanation of the mindset of the region -


http://ukrainianweek.com/Politics/118865

[calmissile]

You try hard to act like you understand but statements like this reveal that you do not. 2000 dead Russian soldiers are of no consequence to Putin. 100,000 or more deaths and he's not going to lose a moments sleep. You don't understand what is at play.

Russians are whipped up in a frenzy and being fed the same shit sandwich they enjoyed in the Soviet days. It's getting tasty again. Putin is nothing more than a mafia boss with armies and nuclear weapons. It doesn't matter to him or his regime how many Russians get killed. It's all about achieving his goals. He's being cautious because he still wants to commerce with the West. It's their money that will keep him in power and make him stronger. He may at some point reject one or the other, Western capital or Ukraine. It's becoming clearer than he can't have both. He's been playing this like he can have both. We'll have to wait and see the outcome.

However, don't fool yourself. It doesn't matter to Putin how many die. The majority of Russian will believe everything he says.

Very well said.  +100

[lordtiberius]

Very well said.  +100

Yeah, he is probably the best contributor on the forum

[Belvis]

Putin has every right to cut Ukraine off completely from every thing Russian, call all Russians home from Ukraine, build a China like wall at the border if he wishes but, he doesn't have the right to invade Ukrainian lands or dictate with whom or how Ukraine should function.

Alas, the world is spoiled by double standards. U.S. suffers  credibility issues when it comes to foreign policy. The same superpower that  rush into war with Yugoslavia, Lybia, Afghanistan, Iraq and now Syria has now  denounced Russia for intervention  into Ukrainian civil war. 
OK, let's put question of moral authority aside.

Russia stance: Ukrainian conflict is the obvious case where the adverse consequences for national security of not going to conflict outweigh any economic and political  costs of  intervention. It's not even the national security, it is the moral obligations to Russian people, part of which was left in Ukraine after dissolution of the Soviet Union and refused to accept Ukrainian identity.
Twenty years of Ukrainian independence convince them they don't want to share the nationalist ambitions of western Ukrainians, so they have decided to cease their association with Ukraine.  Russia  interferes in Ukrainian affairs on behalf of rebellious population to save them from repressions. Negotiations and constructive approach to own people from Kiev side would avert the russian meddling in Ukraine.

Legal arguments do not work here when process of self-disintegration takes place. The majority of modern countries including US  have gained  independence as a result of a violent struggle, ignoring the law of the time.

[calmissile]

Maybe it is wrong or maybe it is right to take the 'less worse option'.  I've always assumed there were some details, factoids that we (the public) aren't fully aware of as it relates to this situation.  From what I've read thus far, it seems to me that Ukraine would be better served to ultimately relent and make the best deal possible, and that may well wind up happening.  There will be a different time, and different circumstances where they might actually have a chance, but right now it seems to me that they will wind up getting slaughtered.  But hey, they are the ones there, let them choose to do what they want to do.


Fathertime!   

Your views on what is best for Ukraine is idiotic.  You have no connection to Ukraine, perhaps you have never been there, and you and your wife are from different continents.  What is best for Ukraine should be decided by Ukrainians, not some loudmouth spewing Russian propaganda on the forum daily!

I am surprised that you never have condemmed Russia for invading and annexing another country, as well as invading Eastern Ukraine and supplied soldiers (little green men) and weapons to the terrorists.  I seems to me, not only are you a pacifist and coward, you do not have any moral compass about right and wrong.

[lordtiberius]

Agree agree agree

I am surprised that you never have condemmed Russia for invading and annexing another country,

Surprised really?  hmph, that's odd