Putin is No Hitler

[Boethius]

Bo, can I ask you this: Do you REALLY believe the US went into this mess
just to Ensure the future of the Ukrainians?

I don't believe they did it for any strategic reasons.  Ukraine is not important to the US, strategically.  It is not important to them economically, either.

[LiveFromUkraine]

I don't believe they did it for any strategic reasons.  Ukraine is not important to the US, strategically.  It is not important to them economically, either.

It is important to Russia which is good enough for the US. 

[GQBlues]

The constitution never came into the picture.

OK...I'm glad we agree. It's unconstitutional!

 

[The Natural]

In Norway today I gather there was a special on akvavit.  2L for 5 kroner.   

Her knowledge does not make her infallible.

I don't drink Akevitt. But 2 litres for 5 kroner is the deal of a Lifetime, man. I'd order 20000 litres and save it for a rainy day. Like when the defacation really hits the fan, like if Washington and it's lap-dog Cameron keeps on and don't keep their mouths shut.

But other than that I kinda like you, dear old Gator (just don't tell anybody I said so or they think me soft)

[fathertime]

I don't believe they did it for any strategic reasons.  Ukraine is not important to the US, strategically.  It is not important to them economically, either.

You need to think a little harder about that one....OF COURSE we (The USA) have decided it is in 'our' interests to weaken Russia any way we can.   Why?  So we can then interfere and dominate in other regions even more so then we already are.   The American people are generally sick of it and would like us to disengage...


Fathertime!   

[LiveFromUkraine]

Of all those participating in RWD's discussions of Ukraine's turmoil, it is readily apparent that Boethius:

1.  Knows the most about the historic background leading to the conflict between Ukraine and Russia.

2.  Knows the most about the individual Ukrainian and Russian leaders.

3.  Uses and cites more sources widely recognized as independent and highly qualified.

 
Her Ukrainian roots may give her some bias.  Yet I do not think her bias is more than that expressed in others'  posts.

My wife is Russian, and I have spent much less time in Ukraine than in Russia. Yet, IMO Russia is more responsible than Ukraine for the continuing armed conflict.   Maybe this influences my assessment of Boethius.

I have to agree.  Bo was kind enough to send me some additional info via pm before she got sucked back into this forum.  haha   

[Gator]

Unfortunately I see only misfortune for the Ukrainian People going forward, even if they  get union and Peace.

Exactly. 

Because there will be no Peace With the devil they signed the debt papers With. It will be austerity for generations to come I'm afraid.

Not generations, but 15-20 years if they don't stray from the path that the EU (not the US) has in mind for them.  That is not long considering Ukraine has had its independence for 20 years and went backwards with the old ways of rampant corruption, subsidized energy, central planning, etc.

More taxes, less in pensions, privatizations of many Things leading to increased costs of most Things.... the usual Things whenever the IMF get into it.

Everyone has to pay the piper at some time for excess.  America certainly did in 1982 after years of inflation. 

[Boethius]

I have to agree.  Bo was kind enough to send me some additional info via pm before she got sucked back into this forum.  haha

 


or perhaps,


 

[The Natural]

Everyone has to pay the piper at some time for excess.  America certainly did in 1982 after years of inflation.

Everyone has to pay the piper. Period!

I don't know for certain, but I have a feeling that the average Ukrainian have some kind of fantasy that once they get rid of the Russians and turn to the west, they are somewhat going to get to nirvana and the same kind of living standars as there. Of course it's never going to happen, just ask the Poles. I contend that Ukraine is nothing more that a battleground for the time being between USA and Russia. Neither give  a damn about the future of the People there. I predict that things will not improve, but rather get worse for the average Ukrainian. Unfortunately.

[Boethius]

I'd agree with the nirvana statement.  But realistically, things can't get much worse. 

[GQBlues]

Everyone has to pay the piper. Period!

I don't know for certain, but I have a feeling that the average Ukrainian have some kind of fantasy that once they get rid of the Russians and turn to the west, they are somewhat going to get to nirvana and the same kind of living standars as there. Of course it's never going to happen, just ask the Poles. I contend that Ukraine is nothing more that a battleground for the time being between USA and Russia. Neither give  a damn about the future of the People there. I predict that things will not improve, but rather get worse for the average Ukrainian. Unfortunately.

It'll get worst, especially for the short term. Heat, oil and gas will no longer be a subsidy thereby exacerbating an already economically challenged population. Then the reality that the loans needed to actually be paid even before they're able to get their feet firmly planted again.

Poroshenko have an unenviable term waiting for him.

[BillyB]

Anyway, I stated the four instances in Ukraine's Constitution article regarding removal of a president. The ousting of Yanu didn't meet any of the set guidelines, so to me, that's not within the purview of the Constitution.

The guy didn't show up for work. You expect a country to stop functioning just because the constitution didn't account for a president does not showing up for work or being abducted by aliens? Months ago you kept saying Yanukovych was illegally impeach when in fact he was never impeached. Most people in Ukraine moved on and are happy with their current president. You should too.

[The Natural]

It'll get worst, especially for the short term. Heat, oil and gas will no longer be a subsidy thereby exacerbating an already economically challenged population. Then the reality that the loans needed to actually be paid even before they're able to get their feet firmly planted again.

Poroshenko have an unenviable term waiting for him.

Poroshenko, a billionaire, will have yet more billions in his western accounts waiting for him once he fails his People. Such is the way With People who have too much, they want even more. Always.

[Photo Guy]

THIS:

I think that many of the forum are not 'High on Adrenaline' as you might say Shadow.  From a Western perspective, here is what I believe many think (including myself). 

The surprising success of the Ukrainian forces in retaking Sloviansk and the roll-up of the separatist forces into the two strongholds surprised the Russians.  Operationally, Russia hopes to keep the conflict ongoing for as long as possible - for as long as the conflict is ongoing, Ukraine is a destabilized country and Crimea is not even in the discussion.  Operationally, the only option available to the Russians was to offer heavy equipment, most likely including the BUK missile systems used to shoot down the airliner.

With the heavy equipment, the separatist forces have had a mitigating effect on the Ukrainian forces, in one instance even retaking land that previously was captured by the Ukrainian forces.

Russia can no longer supply the separatists with the heavy weapons as all eyes are now on both parties.  This lack of heavy equipment will have a draw down effect (and possibly even win the conflict for Ukraine.)  Strategically it is a disaster for Russia.

[Anotherkiwi]

Poroshenko, a billionaire, will have yet more billions in his western accounts waiting for him once he fails his People. Such is the way With People who have too much, they want even more. Always.

How about giving the guy a chance to prove you wrong?  He's been in office for a bit less than two months, seems to be pretty popular (so far) from what I've seen, and it would nice to let him have the opportunity to show that he really DOES mean to start cleaning up the country.  Unlike Putin, he also has the advantage from a media point of view of speaking English, so can't hide behind the "I was mistranslated" banner.

[calmissile]

How about giving the guy a chance to prove you wrong?  He's been in office for a bit less than two months, seems to be pretty popular (so far) from what I've seen, and it would nice to let him have the opportunity to show that he really DOES mean to start cleaning up the country.  Unlike Putin, he also has the advantage from a media point of view of speaking English, so can't hide behind the "I was mistranslated" banner.

Agree 100%.   What does he expect in 2 months?

[Boethius]

This is an interesting piece giving the Polish perspective -


http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118790/after-malaysia-flight-17-we-should-call-putin-shameless-thug


For those who have not heard of him, Adam Michnik's bio -


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Michnik

[GQBlues]

The guy didn't show up for work. You expect a country to stop functioning just because the constitution didn't account for a president does not showing up for work or being abducted by aliens?...

A typical summation from a typical **** minded ****. 

It would help you immensely to take the time to understand what you think you understand. Then you'd have an idea how you look like to everyone else.

...Months ago you kept saying Yanukovych was illegally impeach when in fact he was never impeached. Most people in Ukraine moved on and are happy with their current president. You should too.

I think you have this backwards....you first claimed Yanu wasn't legally elected because of some silly number of *dissenting opinions*. That was dealt with.

Then jone, I believe it was (IINM), claimed by virtue of Kyiv Post headline stating Yanu was impeached by a vote of 328. When in fact that vote was merely for a bill to introduce the impeachment process and eventually abandoned it. They never finished the process. They filed charges and listed Yanukovick wanted for mass murder to indict him for the murder of the maidan deaths despite Yanukovich had nothing to do with the sniper attacks. It was a bonafide coup. *A sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government*. That was dealt with (or so I thought).

It isn't that - *he didn't show up for work* BillyB (LOL), but knowing you - things are nothing but an exercise in futility. He was framed.

Now, you can really try and follow the events, either what happened in Ukraine, or even the discussion event here on this board, and you'd realize that the only one confused here had always been *you*.

[GQBlues]

Same old, same old life under the new  puppet  reformed democratic nation we financially supported. Ukraine's parliament certainly resemble that of Nigeria with all the fun they have during their sessions..LOL.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/mh17-ukraine-mps-fight-in-parliament-following-decision-to-call-up-extra-border-troops-9621427.html

The nationalist MP who initiated the fight actually look like Svodoba's MP Igor Miroshnichenko who went to the TV station to beat up the producer for showing Putin's speech before...LOL. These guys are Ukraine's politicians we're supporting...

Obviously, nothing much has changed...but then, we 'sorta' knew that.     Blame it on Bush, baby!

[Anotherkiwi]

It was a bonafide coup. *A sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government*. That was dealt with (or so I thought).

In relation to your definition above - how can a government seize power from itself?  The members of the Rada, as has been pointed out ad nauseam, HAVE NOT CHANGED.  They were all duly elected in an election which you agree was legal, and they're still there.  Some of the leadership has changed, admittedly, but it's still the same government, and the same people throwing punches at each other.

[BillyB]

The members of the Rada, as has been pointed out ad nauseam, HAVE NOT CHANGED.  They were all duly elected in an election which you agree was legal, and they're still there.  Some of the leadership has changed, admittedly, but it's still the same government, and the same people throwing punches at each other.

To add to that, the current Ukrainian President was elected by an election Yanukovych accepted. GQ is still bitter his man, Yanukovych, is not in power and robbing the people anymore. Personally I think the citizens of Ukraine made the mistake of not getting rid of all of them corrupt politicians and starting new.

[Hammer2722]

To add to that, the current Ukrainian President was elected by an election Yanukovych accepted. GQ is still bitter his man, Yanukovych, is not in power and robbing the people anymore. Personally I think the citizens of Ukraine made the mistake of not getting rid of all of them corrupt politicians and starting new.

The problem with getting rid of all the corrupt politicians is that they would only get replaced by their just as corrupt patsies.

[BillyB]

The problem with getting rid of all the corrupt politicians is that they would only get replaced by their just as corrupt patsies.

I have a feeling the new President is a winner. Credit goes to the citizens for voting him in. They may make the same sound judgements in other elections. An added plus is Poroshenko's already rich through the fruits of his labor so there is little need for him to rob the citizens of Ukraine.

[GQBlues]

In relation to your definition above - how can a government seize power from itself?  The members of the Rada, as has been pointed out ad nauseam, HAVE NOT CHANGED.  They were all duly elected in an election which you agree was legal, and they're still there.  Some of the leadership has changed, admittedly, but it's still the same government, and the same people throwing punches at each other.

You can multiply the *ad nauseam* part ten fold and you still won't convince me that you actually know what you're talking about.

Contrary to our resident Ukraine affair expert, Ukraine IS a (Unitary) republic and it's governmental system IS in fact called a *Semi-presidential System*. It is NOT a parliamentary  Republic nor is it a Presidential Republic. Ukraine's form of governing can be likened with France. Certainly, if President Sarkozy was illegally ousted/removed by violence or force, by technicality, *the power of the government* is illegally siezed.

What is a semi-presidential system? "The semi-presidential system (referred to as semi-presidentialism) is a system of government in which a popularly elected fixed term president exists alongside a prime minister and Cabinet who are responsible to the legislature of a state."

What is a government?: the governing body of a nation, state, or community.

Merriam describe it as: " the group of people who control and make decisions for a country, state, etc.; : a particular system used for controlling a country, state, etc.; : the process or manner of controlling a country, state, etc."

I mean, considering you're not from Illinois, I'll presume *English* to be your first language, yes?

So in parting, I will leave you with only this: If Aramis didn't exist, by technicality, can it still be called *The 3 Musketeers*?

 


::::You boys are fishing for your respective brides in Ukraine. The very least you can do is actually pay a little more attention to their country's makeshift and not just the pages of dating agencies::::

[GQBlues]

To add to that, the current Ukrainian President was elected by an election Yanukovych accepted. GQ is still bitter his man, Yanukovych, is not in power and robbing the people anymore. Personally I think the citizens of Ukraine made the mistake of not getting rid of all of them corrupt politicians and starting new.

Riiiiiiiiiight!