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Author Topic: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.  (Read 158905 times)

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lordtiberius

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #325 on: October 25, 2014, 11:06:13 PM »
Nukes are out of the scenario totally. He needs the land and the people to supply food. Besides this will bring the Budapest Accord into play. Not to mention WWIII.

You don't seem to understand. The volunteers can't be supplied by Poro because the coffers are dry thanks to Yanku and clan. The people of UA are digging into their pockets to do this. You can also donate.

You buy that from them? Because the guys in the ranks don't. 

As to Jay's anti-americanism, as someone who knows a thing or too about our military capabilities, he is right.  We would have a tough time conquering and holding Ukraine.  The only way to hold it is to destroy it, which is what I believe the President of Russia wants to do to Ukraine.

You don't want to think about nukes.  Neither do I.  The reason I keep bringing it because Russian government keep bringing it up.  And these people sit on the Security Council.

So for the record, we have 4 Euromaidan "supporters" who trust in the beneficence of the Kursk rescuer, the Breslow manager, the Politskaya prosecutor and the aggressor in this current war.

No offense, but this attitude is part of the problem in the West.

We must stop at nothing in stopping Putin.

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #326 on: October 25, 2014, 11:10:19 PM »
AC--  please do not confuse my comments as denigrating the American military in any way. As it is today I would be delighted to see the US full bore confronting the Russians here in Ukraine( and I am sure if that were they would have Australian help-as they have had virtually everywhere in the past).
A  little history-- with slight exaggeration-- the British( & Australian) way has been to fight a glorious battle while being outnumbered or undermanned-- and treating the loss or victory with some silly sense of superiority against the odds -- while virtually all of US battle history has been to attempt to use overwhelming numbers to tip the scales in their favour.It  makes a lot more sense to me!!

If you think about it--it has been the reluctance of Putin to commit large numbers that has seen them in trouble in the east. It is possible that his window of opportunity to do that has now passed.

SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

lordtiberius

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #327 on: October 25, 2014, 11:20:15 PM »
If you don't want us to think you are not denigrating our military, the first thing to do is stop denigrating our military AFTER you apologize for denigrating our military.

Brass, you said you doubted Russian first strike capability yet they have 16 submarines carrying 409 nukes, one or two in the Gulf of Mexico.  They have ICBMs too and they don't treaty cheat, so they?

Offline JayH

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #328 on: October 25, 2014, 11:33:44 PM »
You buy that from them? Because the guys in the ranks don't. 

As to Jay's anti-americanism, as someone who knows a thing or too about our military capabilities, he is right. We would have a tough time conquering and holding Ukraine.  The only way to hold it is to destroy it, which is what I believe the President of Russia wants to do to Ukraine.

You don't want to think about nukes.  Neither do I.  The reason I keep bringing it because Russian government keep bringing it up.  And these people sit on the Security Council.

So for the record, we have 4 Euromaidan "supporters" who trust in the beneficence of the Kursk rescuer, the Breslow manager, the Politskaya prosecutor and the aggressor in this current war.

No offense, but this attitude is part of the problem in the West.

We must stop at nothing in stopping Putin.

LT-- being observationally critical is not being anti American. Sure I can be critical -- but I also see the good parts and strengths.It is about not being a blind believer-- after all--it is the benefit of living with the ability to think and talk freely in democracies.

My comments earlier -- the Ukrainian ground forces can do the job required if they get the support.As such--US ground forces would not be required- save for special forces and instructors.That is not such a great political ask internally in the US. Give the Ukrainians air support,intelligence,equipment and logistical support and they would be very capable of pushing the Russian out of Ukraine ( including the Crimea) .

The key part of Ukrainian strategy from the start of the invasion has been to try and minimise the loss-- and not see Ukraine razed. If the build up of support can be achieved not so obviously -by stealth if you wish- it can avoid the Russians using that as a pretext to escalate.

As for Putin--I think the guy is crazy deluded--dangerous.The world will be doing itself a favour confronting him and Russia  now--before it gets completely out of hand.
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline AkMike

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #329 on: October 25, 2014, 11:39:28 PM »
You buy that from them? Because the guys in the ranks don't. 

What guys in what ranks?
Care to back that up? 
The friends and family I have in UA don't think that Huilo has 'eggs' big enough even if his ego say they are.

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #330 on: October 25, 2014, 11:44:53 PM »
What guys in what ranks?
Care to back that up? 
The friends and family I have in UA don't think that Huilo has 'eggs' big enough even if his ego say they are.

Mike-- I often find myself laughing internally at how dismissive Ukrainians have become of Huilo (  which is how near enough everyone refers to him!!) . Total contempt .
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline AkMike

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #331 on: October 26, 2014, 12:51:53 AM »
From my contacts worldwide that seems to be the general consensus. The gnome is a joke in many ways.

lordtiberius

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #332 on: October 26, 2014, 05:55:32 AM »
What guys in what ranks?
Care to back that up? 
The friends and family I have in UA don't think that Huilo has 'eggs' big enough even if his ego say they are.

Right Sector Battalions are saying but don't take my word for it, Simon Ostrovsky said as much.

http://news.vice.com/video/russian-roulette-dispatch-71

I am for emptying the Sierra Army Depot and giving the weapons to Ukraine but if Ukrainians share JayH's attitude toward my country then maybe Obama's do nothing policies need a rethink from me.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2014, 06:21:59 AM by lordtiberius »

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #333 on: October 26, 2014, 07:46:24 AM »

I'm going to assume you're joking (adding to the absurdity) but if not please elaborate and provide some links.

Not joking.  Elaboration is not possible because of the program's Top Secret classification. 

I can disclose some self-evident information.  For example, the Chelyabinsk demonstration was performed at a shallow atmospheric entry angle to minimize damage.  You will recall the meteorite's approach was concealed by aligning its radiant with the morning sun.  So if I were Russian I would be concerned during the midday sun. 

Here's another clue - metallurgical analysis of fragments from the Chelyabinsk meteor showed some similarities with moon rocks.  Obviously the meteorites are harvested from the moon, stored there and launched from the moon.  The launch site can not be detected because it is on the dark side of the moon.  The launch and flight control techniques are phenomenal and can not be discussed.


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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #335 on: October 26, 2014, 10:35:10 AM »
Brass, you said you doubted Russian first strike capability yet they have 16 submarines carrying 409 nukes, one or two in the Gulf of Mexico.  They have ICBMs too and they don't treaty cheat, so they?

Let's take a look and see if these figures match up with yours...

..."Strategic submarines

All currently deployed strategic submarines were developed at the Rubin Central Design Bureau of Naval Equipment (St-Petersburg). All currently deployed strategic submarines were built at the Northern Machine-Building Production Association (Severodvinsk, Archangelsk oblast).

Submarines of the Project 667BDR (Delta III) class entered service in 1976-1982. The total of 14 ships of this class were built. These submarines carry the D-16R missile system with 16 R-29R (SS-N-18) missiles. Submarines of this class are being withdrawn from service.

Submarines of the Project 667BDRM (Delta IV) class entered service in 1985-1991. The total of 7 ships of this class were built, of which one (K-64 Vladimir) has been converted into a special-forces submarine. Submarines of this class carry the D-16RM missile system with 16 R-29RM (SS-N-23) missiles. The current plans call for keeping six 667BDRM submarines in service, so the submarines are undergoing overhaul during which they are equipped with new missiles.

Project 941 (Typhoon) submarines were deployed in 1981-1989. The total of six submarines of this class were built. Submarines of this class carry the D-19 missile system with 20 R-39 (SS-N-20) missiles. Since the missiles have reached end of their service lives, Project 941 submarines have been withdrawn from service. The only exception is the lead ship of the class, TK-208 Dmitry Donskoy, which has been refitted for tests of a new missile system, R-30 Bulava.

In 1996 Russia began construction of a strategic submarine of a new class, Project 955 (also known as Borey or Yuri Dolgorukiy). Construction of a second submarine of this type, Aleksandr Nevskiy, began in March 2004, and the third, Vladimir Monomakh - in March 2006. The new submarines will carry 16 launchers of a new missile, known as Bulava. Subsequent submarines, known as Project 955A, will have 20 Bulava launchers. The first two Project 955 submarines - Yuri Dolgorukiy and Aleksandr Nevskiy - were accepted for service in 2013. However, the submarines do not have missiles on board."...

In my opinion the R-30Bulava is the only strategic missile capable of testing NORAD or European strategic defense capabilities and it's still being tested with mixed results. The rest is basically junk...

Sea-launched ballistic missiles

All currently deployed sea-launched ballistic missiles were developed at the Machine-Building Design Bureau (Miass, Chelyabinsk oblast). The design bureau is currently named the V. P. Makeyev State Missile Center.

R-29R (SS-N-18) missiles are deployed on Project 667BDR submarines. The system was accepted for service in 1979. The missile has two liquid-fuel stages and carries three warheads. The missiles were produced at the Krasnoyarsk Machine-Building Plant.

R-29RM (SS-N-23) missiles are deployed on Project 667BDRM submarines. The system was accepted for service in 1986. The missile has three liquid-fuel stages (the third stage also works as a bus) and carries four warheads. In 1999 Russia resumed production of these missiles, in a modification known as Sineva, to be deployed on Project 667BDRM submarines during overhaul. Launch tests of the Sineva missile were completed in June 2004 and it was accepted for service in July 2007. Another modification of R-29RM, known as Liner, could carry up to 10 warheads.

Russia is currently developing a new sea-launched ballistic missile, known as R-30 Bulava. Development of this missile is done at the Moscow Institute of Thermal Technology. Flight tests of the missile began in September 2005. The new missile system is to be deployed on Project 955 submarines. Bulava was declared as carrying six warheads.

http://russianforces.org/navy/

I think at this point they have two modern submarine platforms (boomers) and no up to date missiles, LT. Tell me if I'm reading this wrong.

Brass

...Build the wall. Even Heaven has a gate...

"Because without America there is no free world" ~ Canada Free Press

lordtiberius

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #336 on: October 26, 2014, 12:53:57 PM »
If someone is waving a nuke at me, even if it doesn't work, I take it seriously.

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #337 on: October 26, 2014, 08:36:27 PM »
AC--- in the interests of accuracy as to what I actually said-I never like being attributed with something I did not say--- and if you look at your assertion-- and what I actually said--there is 2 comments I made that you have confused.Sure--I am being pedantic to a degree--but as you can see there is a significant difference.

Nice try Jay, but the first thing you say is that without air superiority that the Americans would do no better than the Ukrainians.  That is false.

Then you go on to say that America has always used a strategy of overwhelming numbers to achieve victory.  That is also false.

In regards to overwhelming numbers that is a Russian strategy going back to WWII.

Donald Rumsfeld in particular was heavily criticized by his Generals during the second Iraq war because they felt he did NOT commit enough troops to the battle and especially to the occupation.  In fact American troops are trained on average every one troop can take on up to four enemy troops.

You are trying to walk back what you wrote, and it's there clear as a bright sunny day. 

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #338 on: October 26, 2014, 08:41:52 PM »

As it is today I would be delighted to see the US full bore confronting the Russians here in Ukraine( and I am sure if that were they would have Australian help-as they have had virtually everywhere in the past).


NO, NO, NO.  That would definitely start WWIII.  Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Ukraine does not need American troops on their soil; they need the heavy weapons and other weapons which they have asked for.  On their soil they can do the job; provided they have the weaponry they need.

Offline JayH

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #339 on: October 26, 2014, 08:49:19 PM »

.

You are trying to walk back what you wrote, and it's there clear as a bright sunny day.

In that case it is a pity that you cannot see the intent of what was written.   fwiw--a/overwhelming numbers comment does not equal actual men on the ground b/ as a preferred strategy of US it still is .It is using your strengths!!!
The part you and others seem to miss--it is observation and not criticism.
Above all that--my actual point was US ground troops were not what is needed here.
Finally--I have zero interest in debating the relative merit of US capability. I have said many times here on this forum that I am in no doubt that the Russians would be beaten if Ukraine has US( & allies) help.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2014, 08:52:21 PM by JayH »
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline JayH

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #340 on: October 26, 2014, 08:55:26 PM »
NO, NO, NO.  That would definitely start WWIII.  Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Ukraine does not need American troops on their soil; they need the heavy weapons and other weapons which they have asked for.  On their soil they can do the job; provided they have the weaponry they need.

FCSake--go and read the totality of what was said. 
No interest in being so pedantic as illustrating how you persist in taking words out of context.Grow up.
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline AC

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #341 on: October 26, 2014, 09:03:35 PM »
If someone is waving a nuke at me, even if it doesn't work, I take it seriously.

Nobody is because you're obviously not a qualified General.  It's painfully obvious to most qualified military minds that Putin yammering on about Nukes is nothing but an amateurish bluff. 

Give Ukraine the weapons they need and if necessary park an Aircraft carrier or two in the Black Sea with full complement of Destroyers, and watch Putler suddenly back down and pull out of E. Ukraine (but not Crimea they are there like barnacles -- let that one go for another day).

George Bush, Jr. parked an Aircraft carrier off the coast of Georgia as well as sending 100's of cargo planes into Tsibli, Georgia and suddenly the Russians turned around on their advance towards the capital yet nobody here seems to remember those details.

Obama is not much of a President; he cares more about Ebola in Africa than peace in Europe.

Offline calmissile

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #342 on: October 26, 2014, 09:05:31 PM »
Actually, I think if the US or Ukraine allies provided a few planes or armed drones over East Ukraine the rebels could be pretty much defeated.  Just taking out the Russian tanks and heavy artillery (in Ukraine) would be a good start.  What's the difference if the US is helping Ukraine?  The Russians are helping the terrorists with arms and men.   It's not like the US or allies would be invading Russia.  In fact the Russians aren't even there (according to Putin).  ;D
Doug (Calmissile)

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #343 on: October 26, 2014, 09:12:50 PM »
  With all due respect to American ground troops-- without significant air superiority they would do no better than Ukrainians.America has always used a strategy of overwhelming numbers to attain a victory...

Here 'ya go Jay.  I am quickly becoming convinced that you are a lot of hot air.  Plain as day.

False and False.

Without using Google Jay, tell us, what were the numbers of the American invasion force at the onset of the second Iraq war?

And how many millions of men were in the Iraqi Army?

Quick, let's see if you can answer the questions.

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #344 on: October 26, 2014, 09:19:46 PM »
Here 'ya go Jay.  I am quickly becoming convinced that you are a lot of hot air.  Plain as day.

False and False.

Without using Google Jay, tell us, what were the numbers of the American invasion force at the onset of the second Iraq war?

And how many millions of men were in the Iraqi Army?

Quick, let's see if you can answer the questions.

Like I said-
.Grow up.
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #345 on: October 26, 2014, 09:20:03 PM »
Nobody is because you're obviously not a qualified General.  It's painfully obvious to most qualified military minds that Putin yammering on about Nukes is nothing but an amateurish bluff. 

Give Ukraine the weapons they need and if necessary park an Aircraft carrier or two in the Black Sea with full complement of Destroyers, and watch Putler suddenly back down and pull out of E. Ukraine (but not Crimea they are there like barnacles -- let that one go for another day).

George Bush, Jr. parked an Aircraft carrier off the coast of Georgia as well as sending 100's of cargo planes into Tsibli, Georgia and suddenly the Russians turned around on their advance towards the capital yet nobody here seems to remember those details.

Obama is not much of a President; he cares more about Ebola in Africa than peace in Europe.

 :clapping:
Doug (Calmissile)

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #346 on: October 26, 2014, 09:25:06 PM »
Nobody is because you're obviously not a qualified General.  It's painfully obvious to most qualified military minds that Putin yammering on about Nukes is nothing but an amateurish bluff. 

Give Ukraine the weapons they need and if necessary park an Aircraft carrier or two in the Black Sea with full complement of Destroyers, and watch Putler suddenly back down and pull out of E. Ukraine (but not Crimea they are there like barnacles -- let that one go for another day).

George Bush, Jr. parked an Aircraft carrier off the coast of Georgia as well as sending 100's of cargo planes into Tsibli, Georgia and suddenly the Russians turned around on their advance towards the capital yet nobody here seems to remember those details.

Obama is not much of a President; he cares more about Ebola in Africa than peace in Europe.

Your post sure shows that you are'nt!!!   Not even a competent armchair General.

finis-  I  will not bother with any debate to amuse you-go play with the ffff
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #347 on: October 26, 2014, 09:27:59 PM »
In that case it is a pity that you cannot see the intent of what was written.   fwiw--a/overwhelming numbers comment does not equal actual men on the ground b/ as a preferred strategy

Oh, okay.  English is apparently not your first language.  FYI when you write "overwhelming numbers" it means exactly that; not some other half-baked theory that only you would know.   :rolleyes:

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #348 on: October 26, 2014, 09:29:11 PM »
Your post sure shows that you are'nt!!!   Not even a competent armchair General.

finis-  I  will not bother with any debate to amuse you-go play with the ffff

More hot air; nothing of substance. 

lordtiberius

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #349 on: October 26, 2014, 09:30:13 PM »
Nobody is because you're obviously not a qualified General.  It's painfully obvious to most qualified military minds that Putin yammering on about Nukes is nothing but an amateurish bluff. 

I agree with all of your post except this. 

I don't care how capable you are, if you threaten me or mine, you die.

 

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