Why is Russia so intent on destroying the concept of Ukraine as a nation

[ML]

Kyivan Rus’ was a state in Eastern and Northern Europe from the late 9th to the mid-13th century.  It was ruled by the Rurik dynasty, founded by the Varangian prince Rurik with its center in Kyiv.

The first ruler to start uniting East Slavic lands into what would become Kyivan Rus' was Prince Oleg (879–912). He extended his control from Novgorod south along the Dnieper river valley to protect trade from Khazar incursions from the east and moved his capital to the more strategic Kyiv. Sviatoslav I (943–972) achieved the first major expansion of Kyivan Rus' territorial control, fighting a war of conquest against the Khazars. Vladimir the Great (980–1015) introduced Christianity with his own baptism and, by decree, extended it to all inhabitants of Kyiv and beyond. Kyivan Rus' reached its greatest extent under Yaroslav the Wise (1019–1054).

According to the prevalent theory, the name Rus', like the Proto-Finnic name for Sweden (*rootsi), is derived from an Old Norse term for 'men who row'  because rowing was the main method of navigating the rivers of Eastern Europe.

While Kyiv was a major city of Eastern Europe, the current Moscow was a small village in the area called the Duchy of Muscovy.  Because of the prominence and long history of Kyivian Rus’, Peter the Great renamed Muscovy as Russia or, more completely, the Russian Empire in 1721.

Russia is currently trying to eliminate the idea of Ukraine with its capital in Kyiv, the same place as the capital of Kyivian Rus’.  As such Russia would seek to have a history back to 879 rather than 1721, so it could claim a historical status more like England, France, etc.

Note: A small movement in Ukraine suggests referring to Russia as Muscovy.
This, of course, enrages Russians.
It is not unprecedented that outsiders refer to a country by a different name than residents do.
e.g. Germany - Deutschland;   Italy - Italia;  Norway - Norge, etc.

Much of the above from Wikipedia.

[BC]

Why? Because RU can't afford UA to become a more stable political and economic power, lest folks in RU start asking questions and making demands.

[Lonestar]

Putin listened to his so called experts on state of Ukraine and failed.  Putin has always wanted to get as much land back as the former Soviet Union used to have.

His failure was not sending his forces only at Kiev (take out leaders of Ukraine) and Lviv (cut off Western aide).  He does that and East and South do not really help Ukraine. Putin dragged in all of Ukraine into the fight and brought the UK and USA on Ukraine side. 

Attacking Kherson, Kharkiv, Maripol (spelling), and parts of Donetsk and Luganks along with Kiev was stupid.  He only needed to attack Kiev from the West side and send troops towards Lviv.  Fortunately, Putin and his advisors are idiots and stretched themselves thin.  Sanctions take 9 months to cause damage and were getting closer to 9 months.  Ukraine will take all of their former land back including Sevestopol. 

[Trenchcoat]

Putin listened to his so called experts on state of Ukraine and failed.  Putin has always wanted to get as much land back as the former Soviet Union used to have.

His failure was not sending his forces only at Kiev (take out leaders of Ukraine) and Lviv (cut off Western aide).  He does that and East and South do not really help Ukraine. Putin dragged in all of Ukraine into the fight and brought the UK and USA on Ukraine side. 

Attacking Kherson, Kharkiv, Maripol (spelling), and parts of Donetsk and Luganks along with Kiev was stupid.  He only needed to attack Kiev from the West side and send troops towards Lviv.  Fortunately, Putin and his advisors are idiots and stretched themselves thin.  Sanctions take 9 months to cause damage and were getting closer to 9 months.  Ukraine will take all of their former land back including Sevestopol.

I pretty much agree with most of this, Kherson fell quickly and so ended up an easy target and helped further cut of Ukraine from the sea in addition to Russia's blockade with ships, Mariupol & Melitopol likewise not bad targets. The biggest mistake like you say was missing out on attacking down towards Lviv and so cutting off the land border. Too many tanks sent towards Kyiv when they would have been better sent towards Lviv and so less likely to end up in a big thank traffic jam lasting weeks upon weeks.

The 3 battalions in Transnistria were never used and that I believe a mistake also. Maybe Russia was afraid Moldova would attack if they were moved but with a large Russian presence around I doubt it. They could have been used to cut of the land border around that region.

Should more troops have been needed to cut off the land border I agree that they would have been better taking those troops from attacking Kherson, Melitopol & Mariupol and instead using those troops to cut of the land border with the EU & Moldova, it's a large land border so would likely take many troops to do so. That though I think was more strategically needed by Russia than taking the poet cities as they were largely cut off anyway by the Russian Navy blockade. It was basically like doing the same job over which had already been done by Russia's Navy but tying up troops that would have been better used trying to secure the land border. Mariupol lasted many months before it fell and so tied up too many troops for too long allowing the west time to supply Ukraine with much needed weapons, anti tank gear, HIMARS, etc.

So a massive, massive blunder by Russia not to invade towards Lviv and secure the land border. That was really the most important place to invade other than Kyiv and they missed it entirely. If it were me I would have placed the bulk of my forces to taking the land border. Past Lviv and down towards Odessa using amphibious forces landings west of Odessa, the forces in Transnistria and Paratrooper forces further up as early advance forces to secure those areas until the main force attacking from Belarus towards Lviv made its way down. Resupply of food & fuel coming out of Transnistria. Once that land border is cut off then Ukraine would be gradually starved of food, fuel, and weapons supply. Even with the land border open Zelensky was telling us a few months ago how supplies of ammunition were running out a few months ago so you think of how it would have been then if the Russians had taken that land border and it would very likely have been Ukraine falling apart. So a massive military blunder by Russia and very fortunate for Ukraine and those of us that support Ukraine in the west. I can hardly believe how stupid Russia was not to go for closing the land border. Kyiv I think was always a case of it either happens or it doesn't for Russia, had the land border been taken it might have helped but it turned out to be harder to take strategically than thought and I believe not as important as first taking the land border. The land border apart from its distance probably wouldn't have been too hard for Russia to take with its fresh forces as more open countryside and smaller cities some of which it could have by-passed.

So yeah some lessons to be told in the military history books there. For us in the west we're as lucky as Ukraine that Russia made that strategic blunder as losing Ukraine so quickly would have meant Russia moving onto other ex-Soviet non-Nato countries. As it is they've hammered their army to pieces and all hope of that sort of manoeuvre lost now as it's now just too weak and the Ukrainian army too strong with the HIMARS for Russia to pull it off now.

[BC]

Hi Lonestar,

Let's say your prognosis happens. What then?

Repeat every few years or so?

I believe permanent change can only arrive from inside RU.  How long do you believe citizens there will support Putin and his effort?

[krimster2]

Dear Gentle Readers,
stop me, if you've heard this one before...

in 2014, Putin used a corrupt real estate developer to stage a fake election, by using armed men to storm the Crimean rada, for the purpose to make himself President, and then to do Russia's bidding
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_of_the_Crimean_Parliament
this article unfortunately, does a really poor job of explaining what happened, but gives you the basic idea
he tried similar things in Donestsk and Odesa, but these failed, so escalation was called for
but these military escalations failed as well, so even MORE escalation was called for
which brings us to Feb 24, 2022...
when a full scale "special military operation" against Ukraine was launched

now that seems to be failing as well, so it can mean only ONE THING
that EVEN MORE (sigh...) escalation will be called for!
Gosh!!  how will Putin escalate?

if you look at how castles were besieged in olden times, there were two primary methods
you either use catapults or cannons to break the walls, OR, you surround the castle and starve 'em out
Putin is now in a much better position to starve Ukraine than before.

he'll first starve Ukraine's energy production
He already controls the Donbas coal fields, and reduced gas and oil flows to Ukraine, and any time he wants he can shutdown Zaporizhzhia's 6 nuclear reactors and hydroelectric power
and then work on shutting down remaining power plants and destroy transportation infrastructure and farmers will not have fuel for tractors, so crops will neither be sown nor reaped
then with Ukraine literally at its darkest hour, one of Russia's "observers" in Kyiv will pinpoint Zelensky and the Ukrainian general staff, and launch a barrage of Iskanders to eliminate them
Putin will have already made moves to promote "certain" Ukrainians to be the new Ukrainian leadership who will surrender to Russia, out of "humanitarian concerns".

What if this effort fails like all the others?
Well, he'll have to escalate once more!!!
Putin's last choice, is to use WMDs in Ukraine, what will the West do?  Put sanctions on babooshka samichkee sellers, since everybody else will already be sanctioned, and the west has signaled it doesn't want to be involved in a military escalation

The nuclear option, isn't gonna be the classic Hiroshima kinda attack.  It'll be a high altitude nuclear burst, that has been precisely calculated to leave no radiation on the ground, no blast or fire damage.  It will however create a huge EMP effect that will fry every piece of Western military equipment, and not harm Russia or other nearby nations
this will leave the Ukrainians at the complete mercy of Russia's reserves which we're gonna hear about a few weeks from now

and if that fails as well...