Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy

[Brasscasing]

LOL.  I think I have established it.

I'll clarify...You have yet to substantiate. You've indeed established you're speculating. 

Brass

[Anotherkiwi]

Really Kiwi...Again with the falsehoods and trying to "win this one" with a typo. 

Being stubborn with your bluster or large red font won't increase the accuracy or truthfulness of what you're posting.

You keep trying to convince me you're making some sort of valid argument when you're not. At this point you're posting nothing more than petty and spiteful comments to make it appear as though you still have a legitimate claim when it's already obvious you don't.

Learn to quit when you're behind. You're becoming dull and monotonous in your repetition.

Brass

I could get really, REALLY rude when I see such utter crap posted time and again.

I HAVE MADE ONE POINT ONLY - THAT TRUMP LIED WHEN HE SAID THAT OBAMA FOUNDED ISIS.  I have posted absolutely nothing about Paul Manafort, so I still have no idea why you persist in linking my posts about Trump to this person.  I had never even heard of him until this thread started, so why would I possibly comment on someone I know nothing about?  I STILL HAVEN'T.

Why are my comments petty and spiteful?  Again, I had posted only one thing - that Trump lied.  You compounded your folly in defending that lie by then lying yourself, and now you're all defensive about me calling you out.  It's certainly not me that's being petty and spiteful.  Any bluster is coming from you, not from me.  And I'm certainly no more dull or repetitious than you.

[jone]

Boe selected this individual because he reportedly had connection to YanuKonvict.  However, it is amazing how silent she is on other people that have influenced the US government's actions.

"Consider the curious case of Victor Pinchuk, a Ukrainian steel magnate who donated over $8 million to the Clinton Foundation and had committed to giving as much as $20 million more to its initiatives. The Washington Post’s Tom Hamburger reported last October that Pinchuk had used his Clinton Foundation connections to get a meeting with a “top Clinton aide” at State, but that’s hardly all his $8 million bought. While Secretary of State, Clinton hosted a dinner for her foundation’s donors, including Pinchuk, who had hired longtime Clintonista Douglas Schoen to lobby the State Department on behalf of the Yanukovich government – the pro-Russian regime that Ukrainians sacked in late 2013, a change that was supported by the Obama administration.

But wait, as television pitchmen say – there’s more! At the same time as Pinchuk was lobbying State and getting invited to close access dinner events through his Clinton Foundation connections, he had connections of a very different kind through his businesses. Newsweek reported in April 2015 that Pinchuk had been selling oil pipeline and railroad equipment to Iran in 2011 and 2012, in apparent violation of the tight sanctions placed on Tehran over their nuclear-weapons development.

Fred Fleitz, former chief of staff to John Bolton when the latter was Undersecretary of State for Arms Control in the Bush Administration, wrote last year that the lack of action by the State Department was stunning. “Congress needs to determine why sanctions were not imposed in this case,” Fleitz wrote, “and whether pressure was put on lower level State Department officials to overlook this violation.” Even if no overt pressure was put on underlings, how many of them would have felt comfortable with pressing a case against a figure that Hillary Clinton invited to dinner?"

This is true influence peddling.  But Manafort seemed to be an easy target.  As was pointed out above, she is somewhat selective as to who she chooses to demonstrate as corrupt.

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Columns/2016/08/25/Hillary-Lied-Withheld-Evidence-Traded-Power-Money-and-Could-Be-President

[jone]

Perhaps there was smoke, without fire.

[Boethius]

My point was about ties to Yanukovych, whose actions resulted not only in Euromaidan, but also, the war in Donbas.  Pinchuk (who is, I believe, Kuchma's son in law) is corrupt.  But he didn't cause the deaths of thousands of innocent Ukrainians.  He didn't reverse the long fought achievement of removing corruption at the highest echelons of Ukrainian courts, which Yanukovych did within months of taking power.  Pinchuk didn't remove tariffs from Ukrainian exports for the benefit of a foreign operative's (Manafort's) US client (Cargill). 


Had Tymoshenko won the presidential election, and had she caused the damage to Ukraine that Yanukovych did, I'd be writing about Jim Slattery.

[BillyB]

Pinchuk had used his Clinton Foundation connections to get a meeting with a “top Clinton aide” at State, but that’s hardly all his $8 million bought. While Secretary of State, Clinton hosted a dinner for her foundation’s donors, including Pinchuk, who had hired longtime Clintonista Douglas Schoen to lobby the State Department on behalf of the Yanukovich government – the pro-Russian regime that Ukrainians sacked in late 2013, a change that was supported by the Obama administration.

Speculation, speculation, speculation. Has it occurred to anybody that the millions of dollars donated to the Clinton Foundation by pro Russians, Arabs, and liberal businessmen to get meetings with the State Department were for feeding kids in Africa, improving education, and providing clean drinking water? Has it occurred to anybody that these people have big hearts and that out of all the charities that does the same kind of work, the Clinton Foundation was the best qualified to get the job done?

[jone]

Boe,

Do you have any idea how inane your explanation sounds? You have not demonstrated that Manafort was directly involved in the deaths of the people at Maidan.  Your claimed association for him is INDIRECT.  Yet, here is a Ukrainian Oligarch who is tied to the Clinton charity and allegations of influence peddling and you explain that you overlook him because?  Why?  Because he did not do anything directly to influence Ukrainian politics?  Do we need to draw lines for you, here? 

[Boethius]

I didn't say he was directly involved.  However, he was instrumental in putting into power an exceptionally corrupt individual who was, in fact, attempting to destroy Ukraine's democracy. 


If you want to discuss the Clinton/Pinchuk connection, start your own thread.

[Brasscasing]

Based on Bo's association fallacy, I now declare Hillary Clinton is the true destroyer of Ukraine's democracy because Jon Podesta and the company he founded currently being run by his brother is also involved with the former Yanukovych government.

John Podesta And Podesta Group Under Investigation By FBI And DOJ


 ..."The FBI and Justice Department have launched an investigation into whether the Podesta Group, the lobbying and public relations firm co-founded by Hillary Clinton presidential campaign chairman John Podesta, has any connections to alleged corruption that occurred in the administration of former President of Ukraine Viktor Yanukovych."...

..."The Podesta Group, run by John Podesta’s brother Tony Podesta, was retained by the Russia-controlled firm UraniumOne in 2012, 2014, and 2015, to lobby Hillary Clinton’s State Department. The lobbying firm was paid a total of $180,000 according to public records.

Yanukovych took office in February 2010. He was forced to flee to Russian after a political uprising in Ukraine. Federal prosecutors are probing the work Yanukovych’s regime paid the Podesta Group to do while he was the head of the Ukrainian government.

As it was first detailed in the New York Times bestselling book Clinton Cash, Uranium One — which hired the Podesta Group — is the firm that funneled millions to the Clinton Foundation as the Russian government gained ownership of the company.

According to the New York Times, Russian President Vladimir Putin had a “goal of controlling much of the global uranium supply chain.”...

www.technocracy.news

Yes, sir...She's guilty as sin...Don't try to talk me out of it now. My mind's made up because Hillary and her campaign manager are Democrats and obviously the devil's spawn so they must be guilty!...Besides, I don't like Democrats therefor my unsubstantiated speculation is justified. 

Brass

[Slumba]

I find it odd that Manafort is being blamed - does he even speak Russian or Ukrainian - for the acts of Yanuk.

If Manafort was his PR guy, all he did was spin what he could  - Yanuk and his cronies still had to do everything else.

Including paying Democrat-connected USA firms to handle lobbying.

[Brasscasing]

I find it odd that Manafort is being blamed - does he even speak Russian or Ukrainian - for the acts of Yanuk.

If Manafort was his PR guy, all he did was spin what he could  - Yanuk and his cronies still had to do everything else.

Including paying Democrat-connected USA firms to handle lobbying.

Why? Manafort's character assassination was orchestrated by the NYT, left wing media and those that support Hillary from day one. Bo dutifully did her part for the "I'm with her" cause by starting a couple of speculative topics right here.

Brass

[Boethius]

I find it odd that Manafort is being blamed - does he even speak Russian or Ukrainian - for the acts of Yanuk.

If Manafort was his PR guy, all he did was spin what he could  - Yanuk and his cronies still had to do everything else.

Including paying Democrat-connected USA firms to handle lobbying.

He leveraged his work with Yanukovych for post election influence.  That is the issue.

[Boethius]

I admit, I was wrong in the thread title header here.  Paul Manafort is also the destroyer of Georgian democracy, and perhaps any attempts of any groups to build democracy in Uzbekistan and Tajikistan.

Manafort proposed extending his existing work in eastern Europe to Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and Georgia, where he pledged to bolster the legitimacy of governments friendly to Putin and undercut anti-Russian figures through political campaigns, nonprofit front groups and media operations.

http://apnews.com/122ae0b5848345faa88108a03de40c5a

[BillyB]

Manafort had a business relationship with Russians. He was paid to do a job. He was paid to help past Republican presidents with the election. He will help anybody that pays him. I don't know if he were friends or liked those Russians but I do know it wasn't too long ago Hillary and Obama tried to get friendly with Putin and make a big public showing by giving Putin a reset button to show the world they'll do a better job than Bush did with Russia. Ask Ukraine how that turned out.

[JayH]

The wheels are turning. Manafort is on Ukrainian wanted lists .
What the FBI investigation will give them is the money trail.

Ukrainians Say FBI Questioning Them About Paul Manafort’s Past

KIEV—The Ukrainian parliamentarian Mustafa Nayyem says the FBI has come to him at last, asking about Paul Manafort, who had a long record as a political operative serving pro-Russian figures here before he became the campaign manager for Donald Trump last year.
Nayyem and other Ukrainian officials say they are not only willing to cooperate with the FBI, they have been trying to do that for years, but only recently did American law enforcement show any interest.
For its part, the FBI declined to comment on what now is an inquiry headed by its former director and now special counsel, Robert Mueller. But there is little question that Manafort is at or near the center of the narrative it is putting together about Russian interference in the U.S. presidential elections and the extent of collusion, or not, between Moscow and members of Trump’s campaign team.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2017/05/26/ukrainians-say-fbi-questioning-them-about-manafortat-last?source=TDB&via=FB_Page

[Brasscasing]

Well, after seven pages of unmitigated BS by the OP in this topic, including the subject title. The matter is finally settled...

Jun 27, 2017 

Ukraine Says There's No Evidence of Illicit Payments to Manafort

..."Anti-corruption investigators in the ex-Soviet republic said last year that they’d found ledgers showing $12.7 million in undisclosed cash payments between 2007 and 2012 earmarked for Paul Manafort from Viktor Yanukovych’s Party of Regions. But a probe uncovered no evidence, chief anti-graft prosecutor Nazar Kholodnytskyi told Ukrainian television.

“There were no Manafort signatures on any page of this ledger," he said late Monday."...

www.bloomberg.com

Anyone interested in the real story of Manafort's time and earnings in Ukraine can read about it here...

Manafort Discloses $17 Million in Payments for Ukrainian Work

www.bloomberg.com

It should be noted that Manafort being cleared is not being reported by any liberal media outlets in direct contrast to the liberal media's 24/7 coverage when the false news and speculation was originally floated.

However, it is being reported, repleate with more liberal media generated fake news and speculation, as to why he made this routine business filing.

Brass

[Boethius]

None of which changes the fact that Paul Manafort worked to destroy Ukrainian democracy.  The ties to Russian oligarchs who have always had their fingers in Ukrainian internal affairs (such as Deripaska) are also troubling. 

[Boethius]

As for Ukraine dropping investigation of Manafort, old news.

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2016-11-29/ukraine-prepares-trump

It's called "realpolitik".

[Brasscasing]

As for Ukraine dropping investigation of Manafort, old news.

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2016-11-29/ukraine-prepares-trump

It's called "realpolitik".

Apparently not "old" enough for you to post a retraction regarding this fabricated smear topic you started, though.

Brass

[Boethius]

Your opinion that this is a "smear topic" is just that.  Nothing more.

Paul Manafort works with Russian oligarchs.  Even he does not deny this.  Many of his Russian oligarch "clients" have histories of meddling in Ukraine.  Through that Russian connection, Manafort helped bring Yanukovych to power.  He was paid US $17 million in money stolen by members of the Party of Regions to bring Yanukovych to power.  All of those actions eroded Ukrainian democracy, for, say what you will about Yushchenko (he's an idiot and a thief), under his leadership, Ukrainian democracy flourished. 

Finally, Manafort does not deny working for brutal dictators - Macros, Seko, Savimbi.  He seems to have a penchant for representing the interests of anti democratic authoritarian leaders.  And yet you seem to think he is a swell guy. 

[Brasscasing]

Your opinion that this is a "smear topic" is just that.  Nothing more.

Paul Manafort works with Russian oligarchs.  Even he does not deny this.  Many of his Russian oligarch "clients" have histories of meddling in Ukraine.  Through that Russian connection, Manafort helped bring Yanukovych to power.  He was paid US $17 million in money stolen by members of the Party of Regions to bring Yanukovych to power.  All of those actions eroded Ukrainian democracy, for, say what you will about Yushchenko (he's an idiot and a thief), under his leadership, Ukrainian democracy flourished. 

Finally, Manafort does not deny working for brutal dictators - Macros, Seko, Savimbi.  He seems to have a penchant for representing the interests of anti democratic authoritarian leaders.  And yet you seem to think he is a swell guy.

And your bizarre liberal culture based hatred resets and the vicious cycle starts again.

It's just been shown to you that your seven page diatribe was based on ... nothing, nada, zilch ...yet you ignore it and spew even more nonsense as if your tirade hasn't already just been thoroughly discredited .

I told you your 'I'm with her' Manafort smear campaign was bogus when you posted it and all that's happened here is that's now been undeniably proven. It's not a signal for you to post even more vitriol.

You already own the last seven pages of malicious and misconstrued rhetoric. Try not to continue adding to your misdeed.

Brass

[Boethius]

The Kreskin of the forum is at it again.  He believes he knows others' minds and motivations better than they do. 

BTW, Kreskin, unlike you, I am not divorced.  Because, in accordance with my "very liberal values", I don't believe in divorce.  Or in second marriages, whether the result of death or divorce.  I assume all the "true conservatives" on the forum hold such "liberal" views.

When I posted this, I didn't know Manafort's political leanings, and still don't, and don't care.  This is, after all, ostensibly a forum devoted to the FSU, and an American who has taken $17 million (Manafort has reported this, so the figure is accurate), stolen by a Ukrainian political party from government sources, to fund the election of a man who (a) unilaterally (and illegally) amended Ukraine's constitution; (b) fired all independent judges, replacing them with hacks who would do as they are told; (c) paid bribes of over $2 billion, or over $1 million for every day he was in power; (d) had journalists arrested; (e) jailed political opponents; (f)  stopped Ukraine's attempt to integrate more closely with the EU; and (g) gave orders to shoot at his own people.

Now, given Manafort's connections with Russian oligarchs, none of the above is surprising, nor is the outcome. 

So, in the end, the title thread stands.  Paul Manafort is a destroyer of Ukrainian democracy.

[Boethius]

The NYT piece says he worked as a strategist for the Republicans and worked in the Reagan administration.  Nowhere does it state he is a Republican, and at no time have I assumed he is, just as I have not assumed he is a ruthless killer based on his other clients.


The main point I made at the time, and continue to hold, is that Paul Manafort helped a Ukrainian leader intent on reversing the course of democracy in the country. 

[krimster2]

OMG!!!

I just stopped by for a second, to see "how are things"?

Brass,
PLZ do not speculate on Bo's "bleeding plastic face-lift scars", for all that is good and holy, I am really begging you here!

OK, well ya know I have written here in the past about what it was like living with my (Soviet)/Ukrainian born wife and our two children in Ukraine for 3 years.
Alas, I never wrote about what it was like being a wealthy, sub-40 year old heterosexual man on a 6 month sabbatical in Kiev(back then)from June 1996 until Dec 1996, a time period from when there was hardly any exposure to foreigners.  That was A LOT MORE INTERESTING!


 

[Brasscasing]

The Kreskin of the forum is at it again.  He believes he knows others' minds and motivations better than they do. 

BTW, Kreskin, unlike you, I am not divorced.  Because, in accordance with my "very liberal values", I don't believe in divorce.  Or in second marriages, whether the result of death or divorce.  I assume all the "true conservatives" on the forum hold such "liberal" views.

When I posted this, I didn't know Manafort's political leanings, and still don't, and don't care.  This is, after all, ostensibly a forum devoted to the FSU, and an American who has taken $17 million (Manafort has reported this, so the figure is accurate), stolen by a Ukrainian political party from government sources, to fund the election of a man who (a) unilaterally (and illegally) amended Ukraine's constitution; (b) fired all independent judges, replacing them with hacks who would do as they are told; (c) paid bribes of over $2 billion, or over $1 million for every day he was in power; (d) had journalists arrested; (e) jailed political opponents; (f)  stopped Ukraine's attempt to integrate more closely with the EU; and (g) gave orders to shoot at his own people.

Now, given Manafort's connections with Russian oligarchs, none of the above is surprising, nor is the outcome. 

So, in the end, the title thread stands.  Paul Manafort is a destroyer of Ukrainian democracy.

The NYT piece says he worked as a strategist for the Republicans and worked in the Reagan administration.  Nowhere does it state he is a Republican, and at no time have I assumed he is, just as I have not assumed he is a ruthless killer based on his other clients.


The main point I made at the time, and continue to hold, is that Paul Manafort helped a Ukrainian leader intent on reversing the course of democracy in the country. 

From the link in your own opening post...

..."He began his career in Republican politics in the 1970s"...

www.nytimes.com

Now, you can deny and deflect as much as you like but I'd say that's a conclusive statement.

Brass