FSU Realities: How does it Affect East-West Relations

[mischief]

How can one give correct evaluation of any society if he does not have complete information of all the factors... and it will hardly ever be possible ...  as well if one is trying to evaluate any historic event... for example, Columbus and discovery of America is considered by most historians as something positive... how about looking at it from the Indians viewpoint - millions of victims of western progress... how about looking at the Constitution how it was seen by blacks... thousands examples when atrocities were justified as price for a progress...
same goes to society and it's complexity... to me any society consists of families (I see KenC looks at it similar way), every single family has their culture, views, belief system, values and how they identify themself and relate to the political and economical situation in the country ... dictionary will give the definition of society something like group of people with common intrests and you would think that common interests of all individual would be represented by government, political leaders, laws... doubt that!
I believe if you work hard as a family group to succeed and make sure to take care of every single member of your group, you will do just fine in any society- culture -country..

[Gator]

Lily wrote,

- living in damaging circumstances does not necessarily mean being in fact damaged!

KenC replied,

But just because some of the low moral character traits are accepted by many in Russia, does not mean every Russian is of low moral character either.

There is no disagreement between what KenC and Lily wrote.  It is exactly my opinion. 

Continuing to focus on RW (and not the country, GEEZ), KenC’s statement made me think:

Maybe there is some relativity to the social backgrounds of the women most common to seek a foreign man? 

 

My answer is that the women I met did not share a common social background.  Yet, the best ones shared qualities mentioned above:

   I/O: intellectual curiosity, sense of self worth, loyalty to their own.

   Myrddin: drive

   BC:  overcome adversity with knowledge and creativity

   KenC:  integrity of family

   AJ:  not from a landfill

   Lily:  willing to change herself

             Mischief:  family values



Such qualities will enhance relations between men from the West and women from the East.   Further, I assert that they will match the man with a life partner with amazing abilities.  Be good to her!

[Faux Pas]

We need to look at the US and see if we can figure out if we are on the right track as well.  One simple statistic is our high divorce rate.  I saw one statistic that claimed that 54% of all first marriages fail followed by 66% of second marriages being terminated, and it continues to climb when each successive marriage.  There are stats I can throw out that lead me to question the direction we have taken the last 50 years.  I now believe that the 60s and 70s were very destructive decades to moral fabric of the country. 

dneid

I didn't see this particular statement addressed by anyone so I'll give it a poke.

The divorce rate stats you quoted seem pretty accurate but were you aware they are pretty much the same in all industrialized nations over the exact same time frame?

[Blues Fairy]

Abstracting from the term 'rotten society', I'd tell Russian society is rather mentally damaging. That term IMHO would be more specifically related to the person than to the society in general. Assume we are interested in the person and in her personal mentality, not in the whole country.

Unlike previous posters, DKMM tried to point out a few things that are often exhibited by particular person. Distrust to others, lack of compassion, dog-eats-dog mentality are the things that Russians developed as a result of living under the given conditions. I'd add a few more, like antagonism to the law and order, when they consider it a matter of honour not to pay taxes, not to cooperate with authorities, not to comply with requirements when they know that no punishment likely comes. This is the way to live in an oppressive state, when people know that the state is your enemy, not your protector.

Lily, good post and I agree with the term, though I do believe ANY society can be morally damaging if taken in high doses.  The young people here in the States, are they all angels with wings?  The kids in Japan, are they not profoundly damaged by their rotten culture?    If we look for a typical mold of national character, we'll be roaming in obscurity among concepts like "mysterious Russian soul" and that kind of gibberish.  

I think family upringing has a more immediate effect on a person's character than the government, political system, corruption, etc.  One thing many members here are complaining about is their ladies' style of conducting an argument.  She always has to have the last word; she cannot apologize; she is always right and will insist that things be done her way even if in her heart, she accepts the ideas of the other party.  Many women come from families where repression of individuality and authoritative style of upbringing was the norm for many generations, so the kids were always in desperate need of self-assertion which sometimes extended into adulthood (in rather childish ways).  Simply moving to the U.S. will not cure such a damage instantly.  Respect for other people's individualities is taught early in childhood; primarily by respecting the child's individuality.  A concept that was rather alien to the Soviet style of parenting.

[mischief]

Thought this article might be interesting for ones who are interested in some facts about russian and Eastern European mentality : http://eng.globalaffairs.ru/numbers/4/489.html

[WmGO]

So far my favorite words from this thread are:

Scandalicious   

Ramadamadingdong   

Good points by AJ,  Gator, I/O, DKMM, Lily and others.  Daveman
continues to have emotional denial of reality opinions common of FSU freshman (sorry Dave).
 
Let's try to keep the thread corralled. I was hoping to
avoid a Krimster thread rehash, but realize to some extent it is
unavoidable.

I think the important thing for WM is to not just be aware of the realities, but to also be aware of how they affect FSUW,  how realities will affect their efforts, interaction, failures, successes etc.with FSUW, how to spot/avoid the disreputable, the insincere, the overly damaged, the prima donna, the retired pro, the sponsor seeker, the uncomproming hard heads, the unadaptable, etc......... How to judge/assess woman for honesty and sincerity, "family values", committment/family centric
mentality-belief structure, etc.



 

[BC]

Blues, Gator,

both excellent posts.

Living in several different countries and cultures was invaluable dealing with our marriage, it was a first though for marrying someone from outside a culture I was familiar with.

Blues describes several layers of the proverbial 'onion' that Doug mentions in his posts.

I can state unequivocally that it takes an enormous amounts of patience (thanks jb) and work to produce enough 'glue' to keep the relationship together, especially when kids are involved.  Tangential styles of parenting was and remains one of our greatest challenges.  We are however on one plane (that we want to try and be the best parents possible) so we know that the two lines do meet and strive to find that point.

Many women come from families where repression of individuality and authoritative style of upbringing was the norm for many generations, so the kids were always in desperate need of self-assertion which sometimes extended into adulthood (in rather childish ways).  Simply moving to the U.S. will not cure such a damage instantly.  Respect for other people's individualities is taught early in childhood; primarily by respecting the child's individuality.  A concept that was rather alien to the Soviet style of parenting.

A change of venue in a young childs life (talking 5 to mid teens) can bring about problems in itself and can cause great amounts of stress within the household.  Conflicts are created by a 'dual system' that simply have to be worked through.

OTOH, the influence of my wife regarding my son (that was living with me) was a tough bullet to bite but also brought about some changes that today we all view as very beneficial.

All in all, a mixed bag where you have to work like hell to make the best out of it.

[SANDRO43]

I think family upringing has a more immediate effect on a person's character than the government, political system, corruption, etc.

Yes, until the family has a 'monopoly' on the child, i.e. until school time. Then, external influences may start to appear and 'inspire' a still-growing personality .

[Faux Pas]

Ramadamadingdong was pretty funny

[Lit_1nce]

Yes, until the family has a 'monopoly' on the child, i.e. until school time. Then, external influences may start to appear and 'inspire' a still-growing personality .

Here in the US, a good many of us grew up saying the Pledge of allegiance every morning in school.. (now banned due to religious reasons) ... I think most of us would have been patriotic even without this pledge, but that is definitely a governmental influence in the development of children.

Before anyone rakes me over the coals for dis'en (sp ?) the Pledge... let me say that I see nothing wrong with it.. I am just point out the fact that it is an influence. I think the country you live in should expect some loyalty from it's citizens.. ours fortunately allows us some recourse for change when you don't like the way things are being run.

[myrddin]

Let's try to keep the thread corralled.

I think the important thing for WM is to not just be aware of the realities, but to also be aware of how they affect FSUW,  how realities will affect their efforts, interaction, failures, successes etc.with FSUW, how to spot/avoid the disreputable, the insincere, the overly damaged, the prima donna, the retired pro, the sponsor seeker, the uncomproming hard heads, the unadaptable, etc......... How to judge/assess woman for honesty and sincerity, "family values", committment/family centric
mentality-belief structure, etc.

A quick aside: my favorite way to spot a sponsor seeker was in a profile I saw yesterday with the line "I am seeking the sponsor."  Ah, honesty.

I've gathered that scammers are likely to ignore questions, avoid specifics, "fall in love" in a few emails, ask for money early (for whatever reason), and tell some of the same stories ("I met an old friend for the first time in years who works with visas - it's fate!".)

Alas, some of us (alright, me) need to learn about any possible common "tells" for the types that WmGo talks about.

I've discovered that my natural inclination is to expect people to be basically good and honest (imagine my surprise!  ).  Living that way doesn't mean abandoning common sense, and sometimes you get hurt, but it's a lot less tiring than always thinking about what someone's angle is (I sometimes say "thinking like a lawyer"). 

However, I realize that I could attribute a real red flag to "cultural differences".  Or vice versa.  And I prefer my mistakes to be new and fresh.

So, are there such behaviors common to the women you experienced guys did NOT pick?

[BC]

Ramadamadingdong was pretty funny

..except maybe to a few RWD members and future members who's religion you now jest.

I could invent a few myself but will decline, not out of PC but out of respect for the values your country is built upon.

Here in the US, a good many of us grew up saying the Pledge of allegiance every morning in school.. (now banned due to religious reasons) ... I think most of us would have been patriotic even without this pledge, but that is definitely a governmental influence in the development of children.

A generic name for deity might be hard to swallow but it maybe is the time.  The 'indivisible' part always sounded a bit hollow against the evidence proving otherwise.

In another thread there is a discussion about the appeal of varied ethnicity within FSU.  If you really look deep, you might find that efforts of USSR (i.e. common language) were geared towards uniting more than 200 ethnic groups, something that the western world and especially US to date struggle with.

[HiTech]

My theory is that the FSU views tend to be much more short sighted than the western view.

In the business end you could see it the quality of service, get your money now, who cares if the customer comes back. (I believe this is changing)

In the FSU, many times I see family come before ethical thought, and Love of family used for justification of unethical behavior.

The socialistic ideal it self is of a short sighted nature, idealistically it sounds great that everyone is paid the same. But when you look at the long view , it can be seen that all motivation of advancing stops.

If there is no legal way of advancing, the archivers in life will start to use illegal ways (corruption, bribes,black market) to get ahead.

I do not believe the western people are inherently better then people in the FSU. But I do believe western people behave with more ethics, and consideration for others (excluding family) than do people in the FSU.

I believe western people feel more of a need to give back to society then do people in the FSU.

HiTech

[Lit_1nce]

A generic name for deity might be hard to swallow but it maybe is the time.  The 'indivisible' part always sounded a bit hollow against the evidence proving otherwise.

Problem with the generic "higher power".. is that some believe that there is none.. and actually use the belief in none as their religion..

I think they threw in that  'indivisible' part for Texans... 

[Daveman]

..  Daveman
continues to have emotional denial of reality opinions common of FSU freshman (sorry Dave).
 

LoL, Wm, no apology necessary. There are few people on the planet who can match my mental perspicacity and perspicuity for analysis. I don't expect those less talented to be able to achieve my degree of perfection.        Relax, it's a joke people. 

What you say could very well be true, but unlikely.  I have lived there.. not for years, but for months, interacting with common people, living in the dilapidated buildings on the outskirts, etc., and of course I have seen many aspects which I don't care for in the least.  I have seen almost every single negative aspect of the environment which Krimster pointed out (with the exception of orphanages). I simply view these realities as "it is what it is, so how do I deal/relate to it?" rather than seeing it as good/bad/dysfunctional.  Having a different perception or understanding on a different level does not equate to "approval". I don't gloss it over through pink glasses; I merely point out that we have more similarities in behavior/integrity/selfishness/stubbornness in western culture than we have differences. These similarities manifest themselves in different ways.

I think the important thing for WM is to not just be aware of the realities, but to also be aware of how they affect FSUW,  how realities will affect their efforts, interaction, failures, successes etc.with FSUW, how to spot/avoid the disreputable, the insincere, the overly damaged, the prima donna, the retired pro, the sponsor seeker, the uncomproming hard heads, the unadaptable, etc......... How to judge/assess woman for honesty and sincerity, "family values", committment/family centric
mentality-belief structure, etc.

This is pretty much what I have been trying to say all along. Rather than put meaningless labels on her society, it is far more beneficial to understand the nature of her environment, how that environment can/does affect her mentality, attitude, etc., find the similarities to ours, discern the differences, and use this knowledge to our advantage in the process.   I think we absolutely must remove the western colored glasses, drop the judgmental western perspective as much as possible and view her environment in all its splendor and distastefulness as her normal, everyday life. 

Dave

[Daveman]

I do not believe the western people are inherently better then people in the FSU. But I do believe western people behave with more ethics, and consideration for others (excluding family) than do people in the FSU.

I believe western people feel more of a need to give back to society then do people in the FSU.

HiTech

I agree with this post HiTech.  I would say that certain echelons of westerners tend to be more ethical and also feel the need to give back to society. The rest are no different than what we describe as normal behavior in the FSU. Lie/cheat/steal is quite common with the herds of the masses here AND there.

I guess what it boils down to IMO is that a gem of a person here, would have been a gem of a person there and vice versa (given same family genetics, parents, etc). The rest are simply worthless and not worth our time in either society.  I agree with Gator in that I think the family core creates these gems.  Some propensities are genetic, some are learned behavior.  I have a late brother who obviously had the same parents as myself, who was the biggest scoundrel, liar, cheat I have ever met in my life. What happened? Something went awry inside the tomato.  He was just different for no apparent logical reasoning.

Dave

[Faux Pas]

..except maybe to a few RWD members and future members who's religion you now jest.

Quite possibly so and for those I offended, I apologize. I don't walk through life on the eggshells of whom or who's religion I may offend. I call them like I see them and I thought that was funny. 

[Lit_1nce]

Quote from: WmGO on Today at 01:32:55 PM
..  Daveman continues to have emotional denial of reality opinions common of FSU freshman (sorry Dave).

Daveman has already shown it doesn't bother him.. but I am curious as to the parameters for graduating from freshman to sophomore, to junior, etc.. Is it years looking ?  time in country ?  or something else ?

[myrddin]

738 posts doesn't get you to at least sophomore?   Yikes!  I've got a LOT more people to annoy!   

[Gator]

Lit-1nce,

but I am curious as to the parameters for graduating from freshman to sophomore, to junior, etc..

I have been at this six years and still learning, far from graduating with a degree.  IMO graduation comes only after a few years of marital bliss.   Then one must start post-graduate studies.  

Has any OMB experienced menopause yet with a RW.  If like my ex-wife but with a RW touch....well hopefully I will have already fallen off my perch.

[WmGO]

Daveman has already shown it doesn't bother him.. but I am curious as to the parameters for graduating from freshman to sophomore, to junior, etc.. Is it years looking ?  time in country ?  or something else ?

Well.......Daveman has more experience than I thought (sorry Daveman).............but it is an interesting question..........most
never go over (some say this is true of 90%+) but will write
on forums like this one as if they have many times detailing exactly
how FSUW are/are not.......some men can go over and not even notice or see what is right in front of them and never learn anything.....don't even bother how to say yes or no in Russian.......most men seem to never actually study FSU history, language or culture........it is a good question...........I guess until one has been over at least one time they cannot make it to Freshman status?  Number of posts obviously has no bearing........anyways......

I would like to see more FSUW comment on:

I think the important thing for WM is to not just be aware of the realities, but to also be aware of how they affect FSUW,  how realities will affect their efforts, interaction, failures, successes etc.with FSUW, how to spot/avoid the disreputable, the insincere, the overly damaged, the prima donna, the retired pro, the sponsor seeker, the uncomproming hard heads, the unadaptable, etc......... How to judge/assess woman for honesty and sincerity, "family values", committment/family centric
mentality-belief structure, etc.
 

If they want to throw something in that is scandalicious
that would be an added bonus.  

          

  

[WmGO]

Has any OMB experienced menopause yet with a RW.  If like my ex-wife but with a RW touch....well hopefully I will have already fallen off my perch.

Now THAT is a scary thought! 

Might make someone reconsider if they
have had first hand experience with a woman going
through M coupled with first hand experience of how edgy and temperamental many (most?)  FSUW are........... :hairraising: 

[Gator]

WmGo wrote,

I think the important thing for WM is to not just be aware of the realities, but to also be aware of how they affect FSUW....how to spot/avoid the disreputable, the insincere, the overly damaged, the prima donna, the retired pro, the sponsor seeker, the uncomproming hard heads, the unadaptable, etc.........

Which I guess prompted Myrddin to ask,

So, are there such behaviors common to the women you experienced guys did NOT pick?

These examples of undesirable women are easy to spot IMO because they can not help themselves.  It does not take long for undesirable behavior to manifest itself past any act of playing a sweet girl.  Such women will eventually, perhaps soon, start giving you crap, and regardless of how beautiful she may look (read what Lily wrote earlier), it is the type of crap that you know you could not live with.  So just observe them with both eyes open.  

You did not list the woman with a hidden agenda.  She is probably not easy to spot.  With her it is more what you feel than what she does.

[WmGO]

You did not list the woman with a hidden agenda.  She is probably not easy to spot.  With her it is more what you feel than what she does.

How could I have left THAT out?? 
Well, that could be included in "insincere"..........but..........

And another possible concern: health issues:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/27/health/27tb.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Also along the health lines, many men (as well as the women) want
to have children. Some FSUW have had so many abortions that they
are unable to have children. THAT would be a very difficult (but necessary)
conversation to have.......

Re: hidden agendas............one thing that always raised a concern
with me is the FSUW that already had family or a very close friend
in the U.S.........met one one time that even had a former FSUM boyfriend that had emigrated to U.S.....doesn't mean anything necessarily.........but...............also, "too" much knowledge of U.S.divorce laws, DV issues, visa/emigration laws re being able to stay even if a k-1 or
short lived marriage went south...........things that make you go hmmm........

[KenC]

Has any OMB experienced menopause yet with a RW.  If like my ex-wife but with a RW touch....well hopefully I will have already fallen off my perch.

Gator,
Now there is the ultimate justification of marrying them young!
 
KenC