My view of the war

[Muzh]

I will not call you a moron, because I know you are not stupid.  Yet this post shows how much you love to shoot from the hip. 

You are delusional.

Most men are not such cowards, especially when it is their country.

So, what will it be?


I prefer coward based on his stripes.

[alex330]

Thank you for taking the time to give us your perspective Stirlitz. My wife is from your hometown and your account and views of the events mirror everything her family and friends have said. As my wife likes to say when someone sneezes "truth"

[fathertime]

So, what will it be?


I prefer coward based on his stripes.

It doesn't matter what you'prefer' there is nothing brave about sending other people's children to die. ..you need to learn when to fold a bad hand and wait for the reshuffle because our kids and weapons aren't going into another foreign conflict despite what old chuckenhawks demand.

Ukrainians can fight if they think that is best..the USA escalating would be a bad choice for everybody despite your impotent moanings.

Fathertime!

[AC]

It doesn't matter what you'prefer' there is nothing brave about sending other people's children to die. ..you need to learn when to fold a bad hand and wait for the reshuffle because our kids and weapons aren't going into another foreign conflict despite what old chuckenhawks demand.

Ukrainians can fight if they think that is best..the USA escalating would be a bad choice for everybody despite your impotent moanings.

Fathertime!

Stirlitz who lives there gave a very detailed and convincing response; do you have any real evidence to counter what he is saying?

While I agree that if the USA were to send ground troops it would escalate into WWIII, what good reason is there for the USA to not help sufficiently arm the Ukrainians so that they can defend their homeland?

[ghost of moon goddess]

Ukrainians can fight if they think that is best..

Below is a map of Novorossiya (area highlighted in red), the map includes regions inhabited by millions of Ukraine's citizens (both Russian and Ukrainian nationals) looking westwards for their future and wanting their land to stay Ukrainian. Obviously the map was not designed to convey a pleasing illusion to political office holders in Russia.


And this is how the people who share the views expressed by Stirlitz may be treated once they wake up in Novorossiya. In a statement one prominent Russian ultra-nationalist said: 
''Ukraine must be cleansed of idiots, which points to one solution: the genocide of cretins – malicious, deaf to the voice of Logos, deadly dangerous and on top of that immeasurably stupid. I don't believe they represent the Ukrainians, for Ukrainian people are splendid Slavic people. I'm speaking of those representing somewhat of a race of bastards emerged from manholes'' 

If you were, say, Stirlitz, would you choose to sacrifice your life in a fight or surrender?

[Muzh]

It doesn't matter what you'prefer' there is nothing brave about sending other people's children to die. ..you need to learn when to fold a bad hand and wait for the reshuffle because our kids and weapons aren't going into another foreign conflict despite what old chuckenhawks demand.

Ukrainians can fight if they think that is best..the USA escalating would be a bad choice for everybody despite your impotent moanings.

Fathertime!

Listen <expletive>, it is people like you that increase the chances of war with your appeasement bullshevism. I strongly suggest you take one or two classes in the history of western civilization so you understand what appeasing dictators gave us.


Two words, needless bloodshed.


There is a huge difference between being civilized and being a <expletive> coward.

[lordtiberius]

It doesn't matter what you'prefer' there is nothing brave about sending other people's children to die. ..you need to learn when to fold a bad hand and wait for the reshuffle because our kids and weapons aren't going into another foreign conflict despite what old chuckenhawks demand.

Ukrainians can fight if they think that is best..the USA escalating would be a bad choice for everybody despite your impotent moanings.

Fathertime!

do you get your antisemitic tracks from your pro-Russia sources or your Ron Paul sources?

Anyway, its real rich to here you wax Philippic when you quote "Real Jew News."

Tell me I am lying

[Stirlitz]

I do not expect anybody to engage in this war on our side and I do not think it is needed. We have enough human resources. There are so far more volunteers than the army can take. I am thinking to join a volunteer batallion myself. So far neither the military enlistment office nor the national guards were eager to let me join because of my age and lack of military experience, but I should be able to find a way if I try hard (when there is a will, there is a way). More and more people gradually change their attitude from being pro-Russian to neutral, then pro-Ukrainian and finally to ready to fight and even eager to fight. I have been ready to fight since March, now I am shifting to eager. I guess as the war unfolds there will be too many of us for the Russians to counter.
What we lack is funds, weapons, equipment, medicines, etc. The USA supplied it to Afghanistan on a large scale, so why not do it again with Ukraine. Also, we need real sanctions against Russia from the USA as well as pressure on European sissies. We need sanctions lifted from Iran so that oil can get cheap, really cheap. That will kill Russia better than any weapons. American military advisors would be helpful too but not troops. However, American troops may be needed later if the above is not implemented. History is repeating, Russia is in the German 1939 now, so if the USA does not want to be in its 1944 in a few years to save the European ass once again, they ought to be a little more aggressive with sanctions and help to Ukraine.

[Isthmus]

While I agree that if the USA were to send ground troops it would escalate into WWIII, what good reason is there for the USA to not help sufficiently arm the Ukrainians so that they can defend their homeland?

Because it might trigger a new 'cold war' ... oh ... that cat is already out of the bag, lol.

Ukraine faces a stark choice, occupation, dismemberment of the country and perpetual control over its affairs by Moscow or to fight back. Appeasement and cowardice now will resign Ukraine to the dustbin of history, their backs are to the wall and they have no option but to fight back and to garner as much international support for their cause as possible.

[lordtiberius]

I do not expect anybody to engage in this war on our side and I do not think it is needed. We have enough human resources. There are so far more volunteers than the army can take.

There you have it folks.  Ukraine for Ukrainians, they want to fight their own battles.

What we lack is funds, weapons, equipment, medicines, etc. The USA supplied it to Afghanistan on a large scale, so why not do it again with Ukraine.

That's a damn good question.  Why not?

I know for fact we have surplus war material from our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that is sitting idle at the Sierra Army Depot that is open for thieves like Devon Biggs but closed to freedom fighters like Stirlitz.  We also have surplus aircraft at Davis Monthan that was originally intended for the Soviet Union.  Why not use it against the Post-Soviet Union?

It would cost us the cost of freight to move it to Ukraine.  We could train them and refit them in Poland ready to fight them in Russia.  How is that for a win win?

Also, we need real sanctions against Russia from the USA as well as pressure on European sissies.

Second that emotion, obtw despite the obfuscation of the communist sympathizers on the right most Americans including 1/3 of all democrats want a robust and engaged US foreign policy.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/william-galston-a-world-of-trouble-for-obama-1409703045?tesla=y&mg=reno64-wsj&url=http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204275904580128172958257274.html

We need sanctions lifted from Iran so that oil can get cheap, really cheap.

Germany was Iran's # 1 trading partner before sanctions.  I don't trust the Obama Administration
to do this.  But we have to think outside the box.

That will kill Russia better than any weapons. American military advisors would be helpful too but not troops.

Why aren't we doing this already?  If you listen to the post-Soviets, we are orchestrating the counter insurgency and yet they make these statements sans evidence.

However, American troops may be needed later if the above is not implemented. History is repeating, Russia is in the German 1939 now, so if the USA does not want to be in its 1944 in a few years to save the European ass once again, they ought to be a little more aggressive with sanctions and help to Ukraine.

true true true

[lordtiberius]

Because it might trigger a new 'cold war' ... oh ... that cat is already out of the bag, lol.

Ukraine faces a stark choice, occupation, dismemberment of the country and perpetual control over its affairs by Moscow or to fight back. Appeasement and cowardice now will resign Ukraine to the dustbin of history, their backs are to the wall and they have no option but to fight back and to garner as much international support for their cause as possible.

Ukraine can win

[Isthmus]

Ukraine can win

Of course they ultimately can. But as in every war, there is a price to be paid. This conflict is still in the low intensity phase and has the potential to move up several gears. The advantage that Ukraine has is that they will take casualties because they have no choice as their survival is at stake. However, Russia's achilles heel will be the caskets coming home from a conflict that when push comes to shove, they really don't have the heart or stomach for. The psychological advantage of being a defender on home territory is quite significant and when used properly can ultimately be decisive.

[lordtiberius]

For a purely mercenary stand point, proxy wars are opportunities to test hardware against opposition forces.  The Arab Israeli wars bear this out.  Ukraine is a place where we could test and observe how our hardware, doctrine and tactics stack up against though a somewhat dated regional actor.

Imagine Ukraine with M1A1 tanks, A-10 warthogs, bombers and fighters.  With equal or superior armaments, Ukraine goes from being defender to aggressor.

[fathertime]

do you get your antisemitic tracks from your pro-Russia sources or your Ron Paul sources?

Anyway, its real rich to here you wax Philippic when you quote "Real Jew News."

Tell me I am lying

I WILL tell you that you are lying.  I think it is funny that you are trying so desperately hard to pin a label on me.  I've never been to a 'real jew news' website and have NEVER quoted text that I'm aware of. A picture pulled from yahoo images that I've come to see had it written in small writing yes, that wasn't easily seen by me, and so?    I do like the desperate attempt though but it will go nowhere.






Fathertime!   

[fathertime]

Listen <expletive>, it is people like you that increase the chances of war with your appeasement bullshevism. I strongly suggest you take one or two classes in the history of western civilization so you understand what appeasing dictators gave us.


Two words, needless bloodshed.


There is a huge difference between being civilized and being a <expletive> coward.

Sorry (expletive), it is people like YOU that think you understand current events that can escalate the conflict.  I strongly suggest that YOU try putting on your thinking cap in order to try to figure out the final destination if the west escalates in Ukraine.   


There is a HUGE difference between being brave and being a (expletive) trigger-happy chickenhawk. 


Fathertime! 

[lordtiberius]

I WILL tell you that you are lying.  I think it is funny that you are trying so desperately hard to pin a label on me.  I've never been to a 'real jew news' website and have NEVER quoted text that I'm aware of. A picture pulled from yahoo images that I've come to see had it written in small writing yes, that wasn't easily seen by me, and so?    I do like the desperate attempt though but it will go nowhere.






Fathertime!

Will the Real Jew News reader kindly support his allegation against me?  You allege that I am an anti-semite.  Can you produce evidence of it or not?  If you cannot, would you please apologize?

[fathertime]

It appears another consequence to what is being perceived as US meddling is that China and Russia are cooperating with each other more and more...It appears that the two nations have agreed to settle more of their trading in their own currencies in lieu of dollars.  It also appears that China is soon to be investing 100's of billions of dollars on Russian infrastructure.  I don't think the sanctions are going to make much of a difference to Russia.  I wonder if the US would dare to start to impose sanctions on China? 


Here is the Reuters article from today:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/09/09/us-china-russia-idUSKBN0H40X020140909



Fathertime!   

[lordtiberius]

You are changing the topic.  Provide evidence of the anti-semitism or apologize.

[AnonMod]

Please move your off topic discussions to NHB. 

Thank you for your cooperation.

[Drew]

I do not expect anybody to engage in this war on our side and I do not think it is needed. We have enough human resources. There are so far more volunteers than the army can take. I am thinking to join a volunteer batallion myself. So far neither the military enlistment office nor the national guards were eager to let me join because of my age and lack of military experience, but I should be able to find a way if I try hard (when there is a will, there is a way). More and more people gradually change their attitude from being pro-Russian to neutral, then pro-Ukrainian and finally to ready to fight and even eager to fight. I have been ready to fight since March, now I am shifting to eager. I guess as the war unfolds there will be too many of us for the Russians to counter.
What we lack is funds, weapons, equipment, medicines, etc. The USA supplied it to Afghanistan on a large scale, so why not do it again with Ukraine. Also, we need real sanctions against Russia from the USA as well as pressure on European sissies. We need sanctions lifted from Iran so that oil can get cheap, really cheap. That will kill Russia better than any weapons. American military advisors would be helpful too but not troops. However, American troops may be needed later if the above is not implemented. History is repeating, Russia is in the German 1939 now, so if the USA does not want to be in its 1944 in a few years to save the European ass once again, they ought to be a little more aggressive with sanctions and help to Ukraine.

Very well thought out and written Stirlitz.

But let me make a suggestion.  You know the old saying, which is probably true:  "The pen is mightier than the sword."

So I think your true calling would be as a leader and organizer, rather than as a foot soldier.

Why not see what you can do as a writer and speaker to rally the citizens in your area to the cause of a free Ukraine?

There appeared to be some good leaders and organizers at Independence Square who came out of no where to become very  effective.  Not sure what became of them later, but during the moment, they were successful.

Think about it, and wish the best to you and all true Ukrainians.

[AC]

I do not expect anybody to engage in this war on our side and I do not think it is needed. We have enough human resources. There are so far more volunteers than the army can take. I am thinking to join a volunteer batallion myself. So far neither the military enlistment office nor the national guards were eager to let me join because of my age and lack of military experience, but I should be able to find a way if I try hard (when there is a will, there is a way). More and more people gradually change their attitude from being pro-Russian to neutral, then pro-Ukrainian and finally to ready to fight and even eager to fight. I have been ready to fight since March, now I am shifting to eager. I guess as the war unfolds there will be too many of us for the Russians to counter.
What we lack is funds, weapons, equipment, medicines, etc. The USA supplied it to Afghanistan on a large scale, so why not do it again with Ukraine. Also, we need real sanctions against Russia from the USA as well as pressure on European sissies. We need sanctions lifted from Iran so that oil can get cheap, really cheap. That will kill Russia better than any weapons. American military advisors would be helpful too but not troops. However, American troops may be needed later if the above is not implemented. History is repeating, Russia is in the German 1939 now, so if the USA does not want to be in its 1944 in a few years to save the European ass once again, they ought to be a little more aggressive with sanctions and help to Ukraine.

I looked at your site and it seems that you have a wife and child.  Your eagerness to serve your country is very honorable, however I will suggest you can best serve your country at this point in time is to stay with them and keep them safe and do your best to provide for them during this very difficult time.  Many younger people than yourself who were eager to go to war later regretted this feeling after finding out how truly awful it really is.  Good luck to you!

[AC]

Because it might trigger a new 'cold war' ... oh ... that cat is already out of the bag, lol.

Ukraine faces a stark choice, occupation, dismemberment of the country and perpetual control over its affairs by Moscow or to fight back. Appeasement and cowardice now will resign Ukraine to the dustbin of history, their backs are to the wall and they have no option but to fight back and to garner as much international support for their cause as possible.

Yes, and they really need some war material which is up to date as well as sufficient quantities of it.  Hopefully whether it's done covertly or openly, more and more Western countries will supply Ukraine with the weapons they need to protect their country.

[lordtiberius]

Stirlitz, I support any decision you make in defense of your country.  God, family, country and duty, honor, country have always been words I live by.  I suspect you do as well.  God bless and keep posting.  The purpose of this thread is give members a glimpse of the personal cost of this war on people we know and people who are over there.  It is not a place to opine especially by those who have never even been to the country.  There are plenty of places for that.  Whatever you decide, I commend you for being what so many here and elsewhere aren't - a patriot.  We need such men here and elsewhere.

[Stirlitz]

If the West does not provide conventional weapons to Ukraine, we can revert to nuclear weapons. After all, Britain and America failed to do anything about the Crimea although Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons in exchange for their pledge to respect Ukraine's territorial integrity per 1994 treaty. Russia aims at extermination of Ukraine, so if we are not able to push them back we must have a chance to make it too dear for them. But I still believe that it is not a good solution, so substantial help to Ukraine is a better option for everybody. I cannot fathom why the Western leaders are so stubborn and stupid. Even if we don’t have time to develop nuclear bombs, we can detonate nuclear power plants. I guess Europe still remembers Chernobyl.

[Ade]

If the West does not provide conventional weapons to Ukraine, we can revert to nuclear weapons. After all, Britain and America failed to do anything about the Crimea although Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons in exchange for their pledge to respect Ukraine's territorial integrity per 1994 treaty. Russia aims at extermination of Ukraine, so if we are not able to push them back we must have a chance to make it too dear for them. But I still believe that it is not a good solution, so substantial help to Ukraine is a better option for everybody. I cannot fathom why the Western leaders are so stubborn and stupid. Even if we don’t have time to develop nuclear bombs, we can detonate nuclear power plants. I guess Europe still remembers Chernobyl.

Wow. Just wow.