My view of the war

[Faux Pas]

Wow. Just wow.

Right, wrong or indifferent that is a developed or developing mindset in Ukraine. Desperation perhaps. The same entities that agreed to help Ukraine if they gave up the developed weapons, aren't.

[Drew]

The signers only said they would not attack Ukraine and would come to the aid of Ukraine if Ukraine were attacked with nuclear weapons.

So only Russia has violated the agreement.

I wish USA and other signers would help Ukraine more, but they have no obligation to do so under the signed agreement when Ukraine is under attack by non nuclear means.

Looking back, it is clear that Ukraine made a bad deal.
But at the time, the cost of maintaining the nuclear weapons would have been a huge burden on the Ukrainian budget; and the USA gave substantial money to Ukraine at the time.

The more ideal agreement for Ukraine would have been that USA and other signers would come to the aid of Ukraine if they were attacked 'by any method or means.'  Don't know why Ukraine didn't push for that.

Ukraine's other huge mistake was not joining NATO at the earliest opportunity.  But I am not sure that NATO would have taken Ukraine earlier and maybe not even now.

I clearly think all countries of the world have a moral obligation to help Ukraine, and many countries of the world will be in a much worse situation themselves within some time if they do not stop Russia now.

But there is also clearly no signed obligation  for USA to help Ukraine under the current non nuclear invasion.

The current situation of unrest in many parts of the world have dealt Putin and the Russian low-life peoples a wonderful hand with which to destroy Ukraine.  And they are intent on doing it.

[alex330]

Right, wrong or indifferent that is a developed or developing mindset in Ukraine. Desperation perhaps. The same entities that agreed to help Ukraine if they gave up the developed weapons, aren't.

Desperate people do desperate things and Ukraine is backed into a corner by a larger dog. What happens when explosives start going off in crowded Moscow metro stations, or a dirty bomb is set off? Maybe even worse some yahoo breaks into the weaponized disease facilities in Ukraine and releases smallpox or the Black Plague into the heart of Russia? Will be hard to stop the reverse cross border excursions. Better to provide Ukraine with conventional weapons before ideas like this start becoming a reality.

[ghost of moon goddess]

BBC Panorama: Putin's Gamble

[fathertime]

It looks like in part due to western intervention (before as well as during) the Ukraine conflict, that now Russia and Iran are forming closer ties.  Another consequence or counter-consequence depending on how you look at it.....  Meanwhile there is talk that the USA should start to take action against Saudi Arabia. 


I think we shouldn't be intervening in places like Ukraine or Saudi Arabia.  These countries have their own set of rules/customs....and we have our own sets of problems to concern ourselves with. We might feel our way is the better way, but that isn't how it is viewed everywhere. 


http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/09/10/saudi-anti-christian-sweep-prompts-calls-for-us-involvement/


Fathertime!   

[Stirlitz]

The signers only said they would not attack Ukraine and would come to the aid of Ukraine if Ukraine were attacked with nuclear weapons.

So only Russia has violated the agreement.

But there is also clearly no signed obligation  for USA to help Ukraine under the current non nuclear invasion.

I know. But Russia's failure to respect the agreement compromises the other signatories. If it had been separate deals with the USA and Ukraine, the UK and Ukraine, France and Ukraine and Russia and Ukraine, that's one thing. But in this deal it is Ukraine that gave up nuclear weapons, and all the other states who wanted to profit as a result. One of them turned out to be a crook who signed the agreement but did not mean to stick to it. What about the others? If they want to show they are different, they should put pressure on Russia and do their best to enforce the agreement. Otherwise it looks like they just framed Ukraine. It was clear from the beginning that the only party that might be interested in Ukraine's territory was Russia. You are right about the obligation but it is technical. For the general public the situation looks like the USA and the UK failed or framed Ukraine. So when a third world country develops nuclear weapons I am sure that their leaders will tell their people: look at Ukraine that gave up nuclear weapons, and the US said this was in exchange for territorial guarantees, so we need the weapons because they are all lying and we can only rely on ourselves.

[Muzh]

Here's another view of the war.


Wait a minute, war? What war?

[GQBlues]

The signers only said they would not attack Ukraine and would come to the aid of Ukraine if Ukraine were attacked with nuclear weapons.

So only Russia has violated the agreement.

I wish USA and other signers would help Ukraine more, but they have no obligation to do so under the signed agreement when Ukraine is under attack by non nuclear means.

Looking back, it is clear that Ukraine made a bad deal.
But at the time, the cost of maintaining the nuclear weapons would have been a huge burden on the Ukrainian budget; and the USA gave substantial money to Ukraine at the time.

The more ideal agreement for Ukraine would have been that USA and other signers would come to the aid of Ukraine if they were attacked 'by any method or means.'  Don't know why Ukraine didn't push for that.

Ukraine's other huge mistake was not joining NATO at the earliest opportunity.  But I am not sure that NATO would have taken Ukraine earlier and maybe not even now.

I clearly think all countries of the world have a moral obligation to help Ukraine, and many countries of the world will be in a much worse situation themselves within some time if they do not stop Russia now.

But there is also clearly no signed obligation  for USA to help Ukraine under the current non nuclear invasion.

The current situation of unrest in many parts of the world have dealt Putin and the Russian low-life peoples a wonderful hand with which to destroy Ukraine.  And they are intent on doing it.

Yup. And both Kiev and Moscow were also bound by the 1997 Friendship Treaty, which was to expire in 2009 but had since been extended for an additional 10 years back in 2008 by then-president Viktor Yuschenko. A treaty which had a content that stated:

 ...the protection of the ethnic, cultural, linguistic, and religious originality of national minorities on their territory and the creation of "conditions for the encouragement of that originality.

The threat of banning the Russian language, the toppling of lenin's statues, abolition of communist ideals, etc..recently in Ukraine also abandoned that treaty.

[Stirlitz]

And both Kiev and Moscow were also bound by the 1997 Friendship Treaty, which was to expire in 2009 but had since been extended for an additional 10 years back in 2008 by then-president Viktor Yuschenko.

What's more important, both signatories pledged to respect their existing borders per that treaty. Not to mention the 1991 agreement where the same was stipulated.

So Russia broke as many as three agreements by occupying the Crimea.
 

The threat of banning the Russian language

What are you talking about? Did you watch Russian TV recently?

[GQBlues]

What's more important, both signatories pledged to respect their existing borders per that treaty. Not to mention the 1991 agreement where the same was stipulated.

So Russia broke as many as three agreements by occupying the Crimea.

Both countries broke treaties. How many there were is a moot point. Russian villified the Monroe Doctrine when it supported the Cuban regime. As many countries, including the US had broken plenty. The Sykes-Pico Treaty, the Treaty of Versailles, etc....There had been precedents of treaties being broken so Ukraine nor any countries need be surprised that these are for the most part, completely discretionary.

Ask China....they were left in the dark and under the mercy of the Japanese empire's slaughter during the WW II despite it being a member of the League of Nations and instead of getting help from France, Britain and ultimately the US (a non-member but became involved in the war), they were brushed aside and mainly forgotten and the Allies instead supported and supplied Russia, a non-member State under the 'Germany-First' initiative.

I hope Ukraine get and earn their independence despite its present day challenges. A great place to start will be is to understand that blaming others for your woes doesn't help. China knows that full well.

The Tian an Men square massacre was almost 100 times more brutal and bloodier than Euromaidan (maidan means 'square', a center) but since then had rose to what it is today. Albeit in a secluded sector of a communist country, but nonetheless, progressive in its rendering.

[GQBlues]

...
So Russia broke as many as three agreements by occupying the Crimea.  What are you talking about? Did you watch Russian TV recently?

The V. Rada apparently banned it as a regional language. and nyet, I don't watch or read Russian media. I read US State Dept. Press Briefings and OSCE Daily Updates for events in this conflict.

I will quote your own president when he made a statement to Figaro newspaper on June 28 when he was last in France...

...I always said before and I repeat this again now that the Verkhovna rada’s decision to ban Russian as a regional language was a mistake. I stressed many times during my presidential campaign that this law would never get my approval. I hope that “never again in the history of Ukraine will the issue of language or culture endanger national unity”

[Stirlitz]

The V. Rada apparently banned it as a regional language

That's a lie. They did not ban it and had no plans like that whatsoever.
This is what happened. In 2012 they adopted a law that envisaged more rights for communities to use a local language. It was not only Russian. It could be Hungarian or Romanian. In February there was an ATTEMPT to cancel that law. The attempt failed: Turchinov quickly vetoed it. To call it an attempt to ban the Russian language is incorrect. I am not sure about the quote of Poroshenko, it might be bad translation or he said something stupid, but this does not influence what actually happened.

[Boethius]

The V. Rada apparently banned it as a regional language. and nyet, I don't watch or read Russian media. I read US State Dept. Press Briefings and OSCE Daily Updates for events in this conflict.

No, Russian was never banned as a regional language.  Russian language, as with all minority languages in Ukraine, is protected by Ukraine's constitution.  That has been part of Ukraine's constitution since it was enacted in 1996.  The Rada cannot pass laws contrary to Ukraine's constitution.  Well, it couldn't until Yanukovych changed the constitution to give himself the power to fix the supreme court with his handpicked cronies appointees.

What the Rada did was pass a law which recognized Ukrainian as the sole state language of Ukraine, meaning all laws would be printed in Ukrainian, the currency would be printed in Ukraine, the language of the Rada would be Ukrainian.  In other words, the status quo. 

Russian did not have state language status when the 2014 law was introduced.  However, Yanukovych, whose Ukrainian sucks, wanted to grant official language status to Russian.  That is what the law attempted to address.

The law never banned the use of Russian, Russian language schools, media, etc.  It was vetoed by the president, so it was never enacted.

Ukraine did not break the 1997 treaty.  Russia, however, did violate numerous treaties, as in most, it professed to respect Ukraine's borders.

The Rada did not ban communist ideals, though the term in and of itself is an oxymoron.

[Boethius]

the toppling of lenin's statues

Is a good thing.  Do you believe the Choctaw would revere statues of Andrew Jackson?

[GQBlues]

Is a good thing....

Well, then you're saying the ensuing conflict and casualties it bore was not only forthcoming and expected, but a positive, yes?

...Do you believe the Choctaw would revere statues of Andrew Jackson?...

The presumption than is, if a huge swat of their tribal population were of Andrew's tribal sect, and their historical saga were mostly intertwined, I would imagine so. Maybe not all of them but much like it is in Ukraine today.

The point is, just as it was during the dark days of America's tribal natives legacy during that time, there were plenty of *treaties* that were broken, stomped on and eagerly disregarded by both sides.

Just like the event in Ukraine today.

[Boethius]

Well, then you're saying the ensuing conflict and casualties it bore was not only forthcoming and expected, but a positive, yes?

Nobody went to war over a toppled statue of Lenin.

The point is, just as it was during the dark days of America's tribal natives legacy during that time, there were plenty of *treaties* that were broken, stomped on and eagerly disregarded by both sides.

Please provide examples of the treaties Ukraine has broken.  Your examples were not applicable, as minority rights were not oppressed in Ukraine.

[GQBlues]

Nobody went to war over a toppled statue of Lenin.

Ukrainians did.

...Please provide examples of the treaties Ukraine has broken.  Your examples were not applicable, as minority rights were not oppressed in Ukraine.

I just did. See above. Just because it doesn't support your POV doesn't mean it isn't factual or applicable.

[GQBlues]

No, Russian was never banned as a regional language.  Russian language, as with all minority languages in Ukraine, is protected by Ukraine's constitution.  That has been part of Ukraine's constitution since it was enacted in 1996.  The Rada cannot pass laws contrary to Ukraine's constitution....

LMAO! Didn't we go over this more than a few times before? As for banning the Russian language, argue with Ukraine's president then because according to him, they in fact did.

Well, it couldn't until Yanukovych changed the constitution to give himself the power to fix the supreme court with his handpicked cronies appointees...

Oh dear me...here we go again. Ukraine's troubles didn't start and stop with Yanukovich. You might as well blame Bush too while you're at it. Obama still does...LOL.

...What the Rada did was pass a law which recognized Ukrainian as the sole state language of Ukraine, meaning all laws would be printed in Ukrainian, the currency would be printed in Ukraine, the language of the Rada would be Ukrainian.  In other words, the status quo...

Which, when all is said and done, is just as damning for non-Ukrainian speaking ethnic Russians, right? You can sugar coat it as much as you want, the targeted intent was to suppress Ukraine's minority. 

...Russian did not have state language status when the 2014 law was introduced.  However, Yanukovych, whose Ukrainian sucks, wanted to grant official language status to Russian.  That is what the law attempted to address....

You mean *REGIONAL*, correct? Don't leave out such a crucial piece of information Counselor.

...The law never banned the use of Russian, Russian language schools, media, etc.  It was vetoed by the president, so it was never enacted....

LOL. What do you think the implication will be if a law was pass through Congress forbidding Spanish language in any form, ebonics/jive, etc...despite the POTUS eventually vetoing it?

...Ukraine did not break the 1997 treaty....

Yes they did. See above.

... Russia, however, did violate numerous treaties, as in most, it professed to respect Ukraine's borders....

That too was in the 1997 Friendship Treaty, so yes I agree with you.

...The Rada did not ban communist ideals,...

They just kicked them out of the parliament. Riiiight...

...though the term in and of itself is an oxymoron....

I agree. Ideals nonetheless.

[Boethius]

Ukrainians did.

No, toppled statues were not the reason for the conflict, which was instigated by the Russian FSB and their paid proxies.

I just did. See above. Just because it doesn't support your POV doesn't mean it isn't factual or applicable.

No, you claimed Ukraine wasn't respecting minority rights.

ethnic, cultural, linguistic, and religious originality of national minorities on their territory and the creation of "conditions for the encouragement of that originality.

That is inaccurate.  Minority rights are not only protected in Ukraine, they are enshrined in its constitution.  Heck, even the Rada members who voted to confirm Ukrainian as the state's sole language (which, legally at the time, it was) speak Russian in their daily lives as much, often, more, than they do Ukrainian.


The problem with many posters here is they don't understand the history.  At the time of the collapse of the USSR, Ukrainian was a language in peril.  Yes, there were Ukrainian language schools, but the Soviets discouraged Ukrainian use, and perpetuated a myth that Ukrainian was an inferior language, a "hick" language.  That is why it was introduced as a state language.


In the 1980's, in Kyiv, if you spoke Ukrainian, locals either did not understand what you were saying, or laughed at you.  Now, if you speak Ukrainian, you will be answered in Ukrainian.  If you speak Russian, you will be answered in Russian. 

MAO! Didn't we go over this more than a few times before? As for banning the Russian language, argue with Ukraine's president then because according to him, they in fact did.
I was in Montreal not long ago.  I used to speak passable French, but non use has deteriorated my skills.  When I was in Paris, I could get by, the accent is different, as is the speed of the language.  In Montreal, I managed well with Africans, their accent is different.  But the locals?  Nope.  However, even the bums asking for change switched to perfectly fluent English when they realized my French sucks.  No malice.  No big deal.  That is what I hope for Ukraine in the future.

[Boethius]

LMAO! Didn't we go over this more than a few times before? As for banning the Russian language, argue with Ukraine's president then because according to him, they in fact did.

You can laugh all you want, but the Rada did not ban the Russian language.  No matter how many times you state otherwise, it won't make it a fact. 

Technically, what occurred was the law introduced in 2012, "On the Principles of State Language Policy", which would have given the Russian language regional language status in 13 administrative territories in Ukraine, was declared void.  The effect of that was that on the state level, Ukrainian remained the language of Ukraine.

Oh dear me...here we go again. Ukraine's troubles didn't start and stop with Yanukovich. You might as well blame Bush too while you're at it. Obama still does...LOL.

He did change the constitution (illegally) by giving the president more powers than it is intended Ukraine's president have, and one of those powers was to stack the supreme court which, until that time, had been a good court, and independent.  It was akin to most Western courts.

As for the law, it was introduced by Yanukovych and the Party of Regions.  It was raucous at the time it was introduced.

Which, when all is said and done, is just as damning for non-Ukrainian speaking ethnic Russians, right? You can sugar coat it as much as you want, the targeted intent was to suppress Ukraine's minority. 

LOL.  No.  Your understanding is flawed.  Not having the right to have your driver's licence printed in Russian, vs Ukrainian, does not suppress language rights.  You can find Russian books in L'viv, the epicentre of Ukrainian nationalism, for goodness sake, and you could since independence.  You can find Russian speakers in every corner of Ukraine.  Ask Stirlitz.  He travels to Western Ukraine.  He is, I believe, an ethnic Russian.  Ask him if he feels oppressed. 

My better half's family in Kyiv are ethnic Russians.  MIL and SIL don't speak Ukrainian fluently, though they picked up a great deal after independence.  Nephew spoke no Ukrainian on the collapse, he now speaks Ukrainian fluently, but his daily language is Russian.  I suspect the only time nephew uses Ukrainian is when he fills out government papers.  They do not feel, in any way, threatened, or oppressed.

You mean *REGIONAL*, correct? Don't leave out such a crucial piece of information Counselor.

It is not a critical piece of information, because de facto, it would give Russian official status in all spheres. 

 
LOL. What do you think the implication will be if a law was pass through Congress forbidding Spanish language in any form, ebonics/jive, etc...despite the POTUS eventually vetoing it?

A flawed comparison, as there was no law forbidding Russian in any form.  That may make good copy, but it is not factual.

[Anotherkiwi]

LOL. What do you think the implication will be if a law was pass through Congress forbidding Spanish language in any form, ebonics/jive, etc...despite the POTUS eventually vetoing it?

The irony here is that the USA doesn't even have ONE official language, so members of your Congress could all speak Russian, Tutsi, Tagalog or Maori all the time if they so wished.  Who cares if anyone else understands them?

About 14% (45 million out of 318 million) of US residents actually speak Spanish - is that enough for your lawgivers to grant it official language status (that's assuming that they bothered to make English the first official language)?

[Boethius]

Back to the war.  This is not my view, but that of Russian soldiers.  You know, the ones many posters on the forums claim were never in Ukraine?


http://www.newsweek.com/2014/09/19/russian-soldiers-reveal-truth-behind-putins-secret-war-269227.html

[Boethius]

Interesting piece on the rout in Ilovaisk -


http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/timothy-ash-massacre-at-ilovaisk-key-turning-point-in-russias-war-against-ukraine-364191.html

[calmissile]

The irony here is that the USA doesn't even have ONE official language, so members of your Congress could all speak Russian, Tutsi, Tagalog or Maori all the time if they so wished.  Who cares if anyone else understands them?

About 14% (45 million out of 318 million) of US residents actually speak Spanish - is that enough for your lawgivers to grant it official language status (that's assuming that they bothered to make English the first official language)?

Funny you mention that.  We have enough of a problem understanding each other from different generations.   

[Gator]

For the general public the situation looks like the USA and the UK failed or framed Ukraine. So when a third world country develops nuclear weapons I am sure that their leaders will tell their people: look at Ukraine that gave up nuclear weapons, and the US said this was in exchange for territorial guarantees, so we need the weapons because they are all lying and we can only rely on ourselves.

The West's stance regarding the conflict between Russia and Ukraine has even greater implications.  Namely, any country that does not now have nuclear weapons is prompted to obtain them as a defensive deterrent if one of its neighbors has nukes. 

The world going MAD as in Mutual Assured Destruction