My view of the war

[GQBlues]

It's very difficult to argue with an idiot because he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience. So I am not going to. People like that can prove that we live on the inner surface of the planet. ...

Now of course in a normal world, this content can technically be considered *insulting* a poster since you directly quoted me, and technically you should have earned that cute little green word that said 'Watched'.

But...since I'm never a cry baby with a serious victim mentality i.e. MOBer, I let slide these things off my back.

A lot of words can be said but the bottom line is: Russian has never been banned in Ukraine. Nor have there been persecutions or oppressions of Russian-speaking Ukrainians. Whatever laws were adopted, canceled or drafted there, whatever an official said. I guess that’s enough to say....

Yup. As always, it's the thought that counts.     Apparently, some Ukrainians just, shall we say...over-reacted?
 

...As for possible deprivation of local languages their status, we had lived without this law until 2012 when it was adopted and were free to use Russian to any extent. The only difference is ads must have translation into Ukrainian (normally in small print) and if I sent a letter to the authorities in Russian, they answer me in Ukrainian. Nothing changed when the law was adopted. I guess nothing would have changed if it had been canceled. It was not canceled, so nothing changed literally. Much ado about nothing. And too much lies.

Irrelevant. I can give a rat's arse what laws were in Ukraine soon after it rose from the depths of the black sea to present. All I shared with you is what YOUR present president said in an interview done with a French medium called Figaro. You find anything wrong with his statement, dude your problem is with HIM.

Clear?

[GQBlues]

double.
 

[Boethius]

I tried to find the Figaro interview, as I do read French rather well.  However, it is subscriber only.  The only translations I found with a google search are reported by pro Kremlin friendly propaganda news sites, so the accuracy of what Poroshenko stated is rather dubious, at best.

[AC]

I tried to find the Figaro interview, as I do read French rather well.  However, it is subscriber only.  The only translations I found with a google search are reported by pro Kremlin friendly propaganda news sites, so the accuracy of what Poroshenko stated is rather dubious, at best.

It's even more dubious to claim that ethnic Russians were ever threatened in any way, but Putler needs to have a narrative for his zombies.

[GQBlues]

I tried to find the Figaro interview, as I do read French rather well.  However, it is subscriber only....

I tried to get it for you counselor but apparently my French Executive Privilege ran out. Maybe our token French member, Patagonie, can oblige us with the actual piece.

But for now, fear not, being both sexy and cool that I am, I'm still able to at least get the bulletin announcement released the day prior to highlight the content of the interview which was to be released (shown?) the day later.

In it, the excerpt read as follows:

...Il admet également que l'abrogation du statut de seconde langue officielle du russe a été «une erreur: jamais je ne pourrai promulguer une loi pareille»...

Either our esteemed linguist, Sandro, could graciously translate it for us (that is, if he doesn't have to crack open a French dictionary as one of your prodigal beloved advised him to do with English) or take what Google translator can do for us...

... He also admits that the repeal of a second official language of the Russian was "a mistake: I could never enact such a law."

Link here: http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2014/06/27/01003-20140627ARTFIG00363-le-president-ukrainien-explique-son-plan-de-paix-au-figaro.php

...The only translations I found with a google search are reported by pro Kremlin friendly propaganda news sites, so the accuracy of what Poroshenko stated is rather dubious, at best.

Yeah, that always strikes me as interesting. It seems every time something takes place that may be deemed discriminating to the *promoted* narrative, none of the western media covers it. For instance, they don't report the war crimes and the crimes against humanity the Aidar Batallion had been apparently committing in this conflict as OSCE monitors had cited in their reports.

Then, there's the Non-Disclosure Agreement between Belgium, Australia, the Netherlands, Ukraine about releasing  the MH17 investigation results. That isn't widely covered either.. But the unsupported accusations made against Russia's complicity in that tragedy is all over the internet and western media.

Hell, even the bombing of those innocent folks in the Luhansk Administration building, and the ensuing blame the Kiev government tried to levy on the rebels, didn't get any ink in the western media either.

...or maybe even this freaking idiot.

Why do you suppose that is?

[missAmeno]

In it, the excerpt read as follows:

...Il admet également que l'abrogation du statut de seconde langue officielle du russe a été «une erreur: jamais je ne pourrai promulguer une loi pareille»...

Either our esteemed linguist, Sandro, could graciously translate it for us (that is, if he doesn't have to crack open a French dictionary as one of your prodigal beloved advised him to do with English) or take what Google translator can do for us...

... He also admits that the repeal of a second official language of the Russian was "a mistake: I could never enact such a law."

Link here: http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2014/06/27/01003-20140627ARTFIG00363-le-president-ukrainien-explique-son-plan-de-paix-au-figaro.php

Poroshenko speaks French?

[GQBlues]

Poroshenko speaks French?

No. He speaks Tagalog. He said...

"Alam ko na mali na iyon na nga. Dapat hindi nila inalis itong Russian lengguwahe sa aming batas. Hindi na ito mangyayari sa aking administrasyon."

btw, so there's no confusion. No means no. In Slovencina, 'no' means 'yes'. OK?

[fathertime]

Now Porky is on the right track with what he said today..."There is no military solution"....


http://in.news.yahoo.com/ukraines-leader-sees-no-military-solution-crisis-eyes-101807161.html




Despite what some of the 'brave' chickenhawks have to say, a person would have to be rather dimwitted  to think Russia wouldn't continue to escalate if we started arming Ukraine.  This would result in many many more dead Ukrainian bodies.


Although some pretend to 'care' about the Ukrainians, the real thing they care about is Punishing Russia...even if that entails 1000's more dead Ukrainians. so for those that actually want to see a solution...that will start at a table with pen and paper...it will be done by 2 sides (NOT THE USA) coming together and accepting an imperfect agreement from their individual perspectives.  despite all the soiling of the sheets from people here mistakenly comparing Russia to the Germany of 75 years ago, Porky is perhaps finally figuring out it is in his people's best interest to put the fomenting USA on 'ignore' and forge forward with Russia and hammer this out.   


Fathertime! 

[Boethius]

I tried to get it for you counselor but apparently my French Executive Privilege ran out. Maybe our token French member, Patagonie, can oblige us with the actual piece.

But for now, fear not, being both sexy and cool that I am, I'm still able to at least get the bulletin announcement released the day prior to highlight the content of the interview which was to be released (shown?) the day later.

In it, the excerpt read as follows:

...Il admet également que l'abrogation du statut de seconde langue officielle du russe a été «une erreur: jamais je ne pourrai promulguer une loi pareille»...

... He also admits that the repeal of a second official language of the Russian was "a mistake: I could never enact such a law."

Link here: http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2014/06/27/01003-20140627ARTFIG00363-le-president-ukrainien-explique-son-plan-de-paix-au-figaro.php

Thanks.  I'd already read that, as it comes up on a google search.  But, that is a synopsis (and your google translate is close enough), rather than Poroshenko's own words. 


The legislation repealed was one giving Russian regional status as an official language.  It did not ban the Russian language, which is constitutionally protected.  I always thought that repeal was a mistake as well, as it came at a rather volatile time.  However, it did nothing to change the ability of Russian speakers to use Russian in their daily lives, listen to Russian media, enrol their children in Russian schools, etc.  Government in Ukraine generally has been conducted (officially) in Ukrainian.  Business in Ukraine, overall, has always been, and still is, conducted in Russian. 


Anything you read, anywhere, about Russian language in Ukraine being threatened, of Russians being oppressed, of Russians being denied the right to speak Russian is pure BS. 

[Boethius]

Now Porky is on the right track with what he said today..."There is no military solution"....


http://in.news.yahoo.com/ukraines-leader-sees-no-military-solution-crisis-eyes-101807161.html




Despite what some of the 'brave' chickenhawks have to say, a person would have to be rather dimwitted  to think Russia wouldn't continue to escalate if we started arming Ukraine.  This would result in many many more dead Ukrainian bodies.


Although some pretend to 'care' about the Ukrainians, the real thing they care about is Punishing Russia...even if that entails 1000's more dead Ukrainians. so for those that actually want to see a solution...that will start at a table with pen and paper...it will be done by 2 sides (NOT THE USA) coming together and accepting an imperfect agreement from their individual perspectives.  despite all the soiling of the sheets from people here mistakenly comparing Russia to the Germany of 75 years ago, Porky is perhaps finally figuring out it is in his people's best interest to put the fomenting USA on 'ignore' and forge forward with Russia and hammer this out.   

Fathertime!

Didn't you also claim Russia would not invade?


If you could read Ukrainian, you would know that Poroshenko has always believed that a military solution was not the best one.  He even called a ceasefire early on, which the terrorists agreed to, then ignored, killing Ukrainian border guards and soldiers who did not fire back at them.


No, Russia would not just walk into Ukraine.  Ukrainians understand what is at stake, and there would be more than the estimated 2,000 dead Russian soldiers, most of them young, going home.  I believe the fact this started to become public knowledge is what finally lead Putin to agree to a ceasefire which, incidentally, Russian troops and the terrorists have violated daily.

[fathertime]

 


If you could read Ukrainian, you would know that Poroshenko has always believed that a military solution was not the best one. 

 

Could you say ANYTHING more obvious than that? 


This is also a different statement altogether than actually saying there is NO MILITARY solution....and you don't need to read Ukrainian to understand that...nor do you need 'two independent sources'. 


Aren't you the wise one who said everything word of the negotiations was  'recorded' and [size=78%]'transcribed' [/size]

Fathertime!   

[Boethius]

Yes, all the negotiations were recorded.  Some day, you will know that, but it won't be for decades, perhaps after Putin's death.


I suppose you believe Putin sketched out the "peace plan" on a trip to Mongolia and hunts bareback in the taiga, as well?


I didn't state the obvious.  I refuted what you posted.  Had my statement been obvious, you would not have posted what you did.

[fathertime]

Yes, all the negotiations were recorded.  Some day, you will know that, but it won't be for decades, perhaps after Putin's death.


I suppose you believe Putin sketched out the "peace plan" on a trip to Mongolia and hunts bareback in the taiga, as well?


I didn't state the obvious.  I refuted what you posted.  Had my statement been obvious, you would not have posted what you did.

YEs yes all the conversations they ever had were recorded...I have some swampland in northern California for you.



Your intent was to 'refute'?  Do you even know what refute means?   Porky has now said there is no military solution.  That is different than saying it is not the 'optimal' solution.   You should know the difference except your blinding hatred and bias has covered your eyes and interfered with brain function.

There will be private negoiations and contrary to your opinion they will not all be recorded. 

Fathertime!

[lordtiberius]

Now you are completely changing your story.

Earlier you posted:  "The US-UK have violated the agreement.  The treaty bound them to giving Ukraine security guarantees. "

I pointed out to you that you were wrong in what you thought USA had agreed to.

Now you have changed to make me at fault for "defend current US policy."

I have stated in several other threads that I think the USA should do much more, even as we are not bound by any agreements to do such.

No.  I am making two separate points.

1) the Budapest Memo obligated us to defend Ukraine through the use of force

2) your "interpretation" of the Budapest Memo is in line with this Administration's thinking

But hey, former Ambassador Steven Pifer agrees with you but your view of the treaty has made this world more unstable because you or rather Obama and Cameron has accelerated nuclear proliferation - the ultimate guarantee of the inviolability of borders.   

[lordtiberius]

Yes, all the negotiations were recorded.  Some day, you will know that, but it won't be for decades, perhaps after Putin's death.


I suppose you believe Putin sketched out the "peace plan" on a trip to Mongolia and hunts bareback in the taiga, as well?


I didn't state the obvious.  I refuted what you posted.  Had my statement been obvious, you would not have posted what you did.

Everyone that has debated or dialogued with this "man" has been disappointed in his honesty, his intellect and his humanity.  Jus' sayin'

[missAmeno]

No. He speaks Tagalog. He said...

"Alam ko na mali na iyon na nga. Dapat hindi nila inalis itong Russian lengguwahe sa aming batas. Hindi na ito mangyayari sa aking administrasyon."

btw, so there's no confusion. No means no. In Slovencina, 'no' means 'yes'. OK?

Well, that is those who speak Tagalog believe but those who speak Ukrainian quiet sure Poroshenko said 'рішення Верховної Ради про позбавлення російської мови статусу регіональної було помилкою'  as well as 'під час моєї передвиборчої кампанії я неодноразово підкреслював, що ніколи подібний закон не отримає мого схвалення'.

And regardless how google translator would translate those sentences in english, french, tagalog or any other language his words correct translations are:
'decision of Parliament to take away regional status of Russian language was a mistake'
'during my election campaign, I have repeatedly emphasized that such a law will not get my approval'.

Now those who speak Tagalog should go back and read what Boethius and Stirlitz have told him and get their heads around one very simple thing: russian language never have been banned and/or deprived in Ukraine.  As well those who speak Tagalog should finally get into their head that even Constitution of Ukraine ' guaranteeing the free development, use and protection of the Russian language and other languages of national minorities of Ukraine'.

If in case those who speak Tagalog struggle to understand what means regional language in Ukraine they should look up  'Bill on the principles of the state language policy" adopted in 2012.
'

[GQBlues]

Thanks.  I'd already read that, as it comes up on a google search.  But, that is a synopsis (and your google translate is close enough), rather than Poroshenko's own words. 

I know and you're welcome...it would be really nice if somehow we can get the full transcript of the interview. The synopsis is simply that. Void of the additional context suggested by those who apparently had access to the actual interview.

...The legislation repealed was one giving Russian regional status as an official language.  It did not ban the Russian language, which is constitutionally protected.  I always thought that repeal was a mistake as well, as it came at a rather volatile time....

But what if the interim president signed the adopted bill and making it a law? Constitutions carry amendments. Simply because certain laws are in Constitutions doesn't mean it can never be modified, changed, amended or altogether removed. Ukraine just exercised this very recently. Just like what the Parliament tried to do with this bill..

The point is, why would the Rada even attempt to repeal such in the first place? Especially at such a very sensitive time in Ukraine (apparently right after the ousting of Yanukovich)? This is the suggested part where Poroshenko commented that it caused a 'huge resonance'. Beyond the intent of the legislation, what other point is there other than to incite an unfavorable (maybe disregard) reaction by the minority Ukrainians (ethnic Russians)? Do you even see how this look to Ukraine's minority population especially considering Yanukovich's largest voting base are from the east of Ukraine which is mainly ethnic-Russians? 

Anything you read, anywhere, about Russian language in Ukraine being threatened, of Russians being oppressed, of Russians being denied the right to speak Russian is pure BS....

I would beg to differ base on this information. I'll reserve this opinion until I get the full transcript of the interview. It certainly caused Poroshenko enough angst to even mention this, IMHO. 

[GQBlues]

Well, that is those who speak Tagalog believe but those who speak Ukrainian quiet sure Poroshenko said 'рішення Верховної Ради про позбавлення російської мови статусу регіональної було помилкою'  as well as 'під час моєї передвиборчої кампанії я неодноразово підкреслював, що ніколи подібний закон не отримає мого схвалення'.

And regardless how google translator would translate those sentences in english, french, tagalog or any other language his words correct translations are:
'decision of Parliament to take away regional status of Russian language was a mistake'
'during my election campaign, I have repeatedly emphasized that such a law will not get my approval'.

Now those who speak Tagalog should go back and read what Boethius and Stirlitz have told him and get their heads around one very simple thing: russian language never have been banned and/or deprived in Ukraine.  As well those who speak Tagalog should finally get into their head that even Constitution of Ukraine ' guaranteeing the free development, use and protection of the Russian language and other languages of national minorities of Ukraine'.

If in case those who speak Tagalog struggle to understand what means regional language in Ukraine they should look up  'Bill on the principles of the state language policy" adopted in 2012.
'

You should really take the time to first understand what was posted. 

Nite, nite for me...

[missAmeno]

You should really take the time to first understand what was posted. 

Nite, nite for me...

You mean I should understand better that some hooked up on russian propaganda and can't see anymore difference between their imaginary world and reality?

[Munshidasmanohar]

You mean I should understand better that some hooked up on russian propaganda and can't see anymore difference between their imaginary world and reality?

missameno, you clevr lady, writing nail to head.

[Belvis]

Ukrainians understand what is at stake, and there would be more than the estimated 2,000 dead Russian soldiers, most of them young, going home.  I believe the fact this started to become public knowledge is what finally lead Putin to agree to a ceasefire

Here in Russia people in social networks are making fun of the number of dead Russian soldiers because of:

1) Too many fakes about Russians are coming out of Ukraine officials. Remember when they label all dead in Odessa fire as russian activists? (The investigation has announced later that all were Ukrainians)
2)

Chelyabinsk meteorite. A few second flight was filmed on tens of smartphones and cameras.
Russian army. F$ck, they're riding in Ukraine for months invisible for any videoregistrators.

[Boethius]

The 2,000 number comes from Russian sources, and is at the lower end.

[Belvis]

The 2,000 number comes from Russian sources, and is at the lower end.

This time you're mistaken ) The original source is Lysenko, speaker for Ukrainian army.

PS. I was mistaken too. The original fake was produced by Danilyuk, adviser for minister Geletei.

[Boethius]

No, my number comes from sources from within Russia.  Their estimates were 2,000 dead, and 2,000 to 13,000 Russian troops inside Ukraine.  AFAIK, the Ukrainian government has never alleged 13,000 Russian troops are inside Ukraine.

[lordtiberius]

I know and you're welcome...it would be really nice if somehow we can get the full transcript of the interview. The synopsis is simply that. Void of the additional context suggested by those who apparently had access to the actual interview.

But what if the interim president signed the adopted bill and making it a law? Constitutions carry amendments. Simply because certain laws are in Constitutions doesn't mean it can never be modified, changed, amended or altogether removed. Ukraine just exercised this very recently. Just like what the Parliament tried to do with this bill..

The point is, why would the Rada even attempt to repeal such in the first place? Especially at such a very sensitive time in Ukraine (apparently right after the ousting of Yanukovich)? This is the suggested part where Poroshenko commented that it caused a 'huge resonance'. Beyond the intent of the legislation, what other point is there other than to incite an unfavorable (maybe disregard) reaction by the minority Ukrainians (ethnic Russians)? Do you even see how this look to Ukraine's minority population especially considering Yanukovich's largest voting base are from the east of Ukraine which is mainly ethnic-Russians? 

I would beg to differ base on this information. I'll reserve this opinion until I get the full transcript of the interview. It certainly caused Poroshenko enough angst to even mention this, IMHO.

I just want a yes or no answer to this question.  Have you ever been to Ukraine?