My view of the war

[lordtiberius]

What's the biggest difference between today and a day in the middle of January assuming Ukraine can't get gas anywhere else? A lot of people are going to die in Ukraine from freezing and illness. I don't know how cold it gets down under but try sleeping in your freezer one night for one hell of an unpleasant experience. Also under freezing conditions pipes will freeze and burst. Water will be difficult to obtain.


If President Poreshenko doesn't secure enough gas to last the winter, he will be looking bad and Russia will be looking better to more of the citizens of Ukraine. If Russia isn't successful in freezing Ukrainians, he will most likely apply more violence next Spring.

Yeah, I am with Doug on this one.  You have consistently overestimated Putin and underestimated Ukraine in this struggle.  The loss of Crimea and slivers of Eastern Ukraine are regrettable, but Russia's sustainable hold those territories remains an open question.  This isn't Transinstria or Ossentia or even Belarus.  Should the EU be more concerned?  IMHO yes, but this is not a Balkan Redux.

[BillyB]

I don't see it quite that bleak.  Ukrainians are very rugged, especially those in the villages.

Hundreds die and thousands will be hospitalized in harsh winters with plenty of gas available. When gas is turned off, thousands will die and tens of thousands will be hospitalized.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/09/world/europe/europe-cold-snap/

  City dwellers are already buying electric water heaters and space heaters.  As long as they have electricity, they will survive.  Villagers are so used to intermittent electricity, they often have backup sources such as wood stoves for heat and cooking.   Keeping electricity to the cities will be the challenge.

With electricity usage going up multiple times, I doubt their power plants can sustain. In the most critical times, there will be power outages, especially at night and on the coldest days when the need for heat is in most demand.


Also most boilers heating Ukrainian buildings are gas powered. Pipes will freeze and people will be without water.

Now listen to me- NO Russians are interested in Ukrainians freezeing.
You don't know my nation.

Not too long ago you seemed happy Russia was turning off the gas because Ukraine couldn't pay for it. Didn't you and your fellow citizen understand what that meant this winter? It means Ukrainian are going to freeze.


Putin IS using gas as a weapon to achieve his goals. 3000 people died so far in this war. I suspect the Ukrainian winter alone is going to kill more than that. Between life and death, many people would choose life under the rule of a bad man than death with a nice guy in charge. Poreshenko needs to make sure he has adequate energy supplies this winter or he will lose some support. Putin needs to threaten the EU and prevent companies from giving or selling gas to Ukraine to make his plan work effectively.

You have consistently overestimated Putin

Has Putin stopped his pursuit of Ukraine? If so, then you are correct.

[calmissile]

Hundreds die and thousands will be hospitalized in harsh winters with plenty of gas available. When gas is turned off, thousands will die and tens of thousands will be hospitalized.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/09/world/europe/europe-cold-snap/



With electricity usage going up multiple times, I doubt their power plants can sustain. In the most critical times, there will be power outages, especially at night and on the coldest days when the need for heat is in most demand.


Also most boilers heating Ukrainian buildings are gas powered. Pipes will freeze and people will be without water.




Not too long ago you seemed happy Russia was turning off the gas because Ukraine couldn't pay for it. Didn't you and your fellow citizen understand what that meant this winter? It means Ukrainian are going to freeze.


Putin IS using gas as a weapon to achieve his goals. 3000 people died so far in this war. I suspect the Ukrainian winter alone is going to kill more than that. Between life and death, many people would choose life under the rule of a bad man than death with a nice guy in charge. Poreshenko needs to make sure he has adequate energy supplies this winter or he will lose some support. Putin needs to threaten the EU and prevent companies from giving or selling gas to Ukraine to make his plan work effectively.




Has Putin stopped his pursuit of Ukraine? If so, then you are correct.

Make a note of our predictions.  We can check it later in the winter.  If I am wrong, I will eat crow.   

[Shadow]

I live in Alberta.



No, it is not my opinion.  There is plenty of evidence, including whole networks and newspapers owned by the Russian government, that prove otherwise.


Please point me to US government owned newspapers.

If state owned media is equal to absence of free press then the UK is in big trouble.

[Doll]

Not too long ago you seemed happy Russia was turning off the gas because Ukraine couldn't pay for it. Didn't you and your fellow citizen understand what that meant this winter? It means Ukrainian are going to freeze.

Billy, show me- where I was "happy"?
Also, show me ANY store in the USA where I can get things just saying "I have no money but I need it"

[Boethius]

If state owned media is equal to absence of free press then the UK is in big trouble.

Not just state owned, but presenting the government's perspective.  The BBC does not do that.  Russian state owned media does.  Do you believe the BBC would report, as a fact, that a 3 year old child was crucified, complete with a totally fabricated, and inaccurate description of the town square on which it occurred?


Being an apologist is one thing.  Denying the reality of how things are reported is something else completely.  On almost every measurable level, Russian media is subpar when compared to American media.  Not only that, they seem to have taken the most appalling examples from Western media - Fox news - to emulate.

[lordtiberius]

Hundreds die and thousands will be hospitalized in harsh winters with plenty of gas available. When gas is turned off, thousands will die and tens of thousands will be hospitalized.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/09/world/europe/europe-cold-snap/



With electricity usage going up multiple times, I doubt their power plants can sustain. In the most critical times, there will be power outages, especially at night and on the coldest days when the need for heat is in most demand.


Also most boilers heating Ukrainian buildings are gas powered. Pipes will freeze and people will be without water.




Not too long ago you seemed happy Russia was turning off the gas because Ukraine couldn't pay for it. Didn't you and your fellow citizen understand what that meant this winter? It means Ukrainian are going to freeze.


Putin IS using gas as a weapon to achieve his goals. 3000 people died so far in this war. I suspect the Ukrainian winter alone is going to kill more than that. Between life and death, many people would choose life under the rule of a bad man than death with a nice guy in charge. Poreshenko needs to make sure he has adequate energy supplies this winter or he will lose some support. Putin needs to threaten the EU and prevent companies from giving or selling gas to Ukraine to make his plan work effectively.




Has Putin stopped his pursuit of Ukraine? If so, then you are correct.

Very few of your Jeremiads have came true.  As a matter of fact, I can't think of a single one

[lordtiberius]

Not just state owned, but presenting the government's perspective.  The BBC does not do that.  Russian state owned media does.  Do you believe the BBC would report, as a fact, that a 3 year old child was crucified, complete with a totally fabricated, and inaccurate description of the town square on which it occurred?


Being an apologist is one thing.  Denying the reality of how things are reported is something else completely.  On almost every measurable level, Russian media is subpar when compared to American media.  Not only that, they seem to have taken the most appalling examples from Western media - Fox news - to emulate.

Ahh no.  The BBC does represent the government's view just as PBS represents' the liberal secular view.   Russian media is subpar when compared to American media.  I agree with that.  Actually  Russian media is subpar when compared to Latin or even Arab media.  You just GQBluesed your argument when you said Fox is the most appalling example of  Western media especially when they are the ratings giants compared to the ratings minnows like CNN, MSNBC, et al. The most appalling example of Western media, click on TMZ

[Boethius]

TMZ is an entertainment gossip site.  Not comparable.


The BBC often criticises the British government.  As does PBS at times (Frontline).  That is not true of Russian media.

[BillyB]

Make a note of our predictions.  We can check it later in the winter.  If I am wrong, I will eat crow.   

There are plenty of crows where I live. I'll start shooting them. You prefer them grilled or fried? I hope you're right and for you to be right, the Ukrainian government must find other ways to get gas to Ukraine. They've been working hard on it. They understand the ramifications if they fail.

Billy, show me- where I was "happy"?

Everywhere. You seem to be happy Ukraine gets whatever Putin gives. If not, please tell us what Putin is doing to Ukraine that makes you upset.

show me ANY store in the USA where I can get things just saying "I have no money but I need it"

Happens all the time, everyday except one has to go to the government to say those words to get on welfare to get free money and food stamps. Although a person has no money, they can go to the store and buy what they need.


Let's say you're a consumer and I own a grocery store. You purchase food in my store and I then tell you can't give that food to anybody else. You can eat if but you can't feed your friends or family. Do I have the right to tell you what to do with it after you bought it? What kind of man would you think I am? What kind of man do you think Putin is?


There are a few sympathetic European nations who bought Russian gas, wants to reverse the flow and send some of their gas to Ukraine. They paid for the gas, they now own it, and they should be able to use it or give it away as they see fit. According to the article below from a Russian news source, your government is currently drafting a bill to make this illegal. Your government's intention is to freeze Ukrainians regardless if the gas is paid for. Children and the elderly are most vulnerable. What would you think of a man if he put your children and parents in harms way? Putin is using gas as a weapon and it's innocent Ukrainian citizens that are going to suffer.


http://en.itar-tass.com/economy/752564

Very few of your Jeremiads have came true.  As a matter of fact, I can't think of a single one

I understand you think Ukrainians are a very resilient people but that is only because Putin hasn't unleashed his full military on them. If Putin wanted Ukraine now, he could take it. Don't fool yourself just because he's moving slow on this. He's still moving and that is enough to worry Ukrainians.

they seem to have taken the most appalling examples from Western media - Fox news - to emulate.

People are free to watch Fox news or somebody else with different points of view. In America, Fox news has the highest ratings. I personally get tired of the alphabet news networks promoting Obama and making his faults seem like nothing big. Most people choose Fox news because they want to, not because they're stupid.

[Doll]

 
Everywhere. You seem to be happy Ukraine gets whatever Putin gives. If not, please tell us what Putin is doing to Ukraine that makes you upset.

Show me this "everywhere"- where I was "happy" about Ukrainians' hardships.
 

[Shadow]

TMZ is an entertainment gossip site.  Not comparable.


The BBC often criticises the British government.  As does PBS at times (Frontline).  That is not true of Russian media.

How do you know if you do not watch them?

[Boethius]

BBC and PBS are available here, though I don't watch much television.  I've seen Frontline, though I usually watch it online if the subject interests me.  Frontline is often critical of the US government.  Tell me of a programme comparable to this report about Russia, on Russian state owned television -


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/united-states-of-secrets/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/united-states-of-secrets/http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/government-elections-politics/where-is-voter-discrimination-the-worst/


I read the BBC site.  It is not slanted in terms of pro Britain, but I do think it is leftwing.

[Doll]

How do you know if you do not watch them?

I, Russian citizen, who go to Russia every year (watch TV, read many news papers) asked her the same question.
Boe, living in Canada, "knows better" than I.
 

[Boethius]

During this war, Doll, I have watched Russian television. 

Do you deny the Ukrainian government is routinely referred to as "fascists" by Russian media sources?  Do you deny that a report was broadcast on Russian state owned television claiming a three year old child was crucified in Slovyansk by the Ukrainian military?  Do you deny a report in Russian state owned media that Donetsk was burned to the ground by the Ukrainian military?  Do you deny that Russian media reported, during the presidential election, that Yarosh was leading in polls? (He received 0.7% of the vote).   Do you deny that Russian media reported Ukraine was using UN helicopters in the war, and used footage from Africa as "confirmation" of this fact?

These are just a few of the falsehoods reported as "fact" in government controlled media in Russia.  I could go on and on.

One of the advantages of an internet connection is, I don't have to be in Russia to watch Russian television, or to read Russian newspapers.

[Doll]

I sure do deny.I watch news on Первый канал. Have never heard anything like "fascists". The news are  very neutral.
On USA TV- every day (about Russian terrorism).

[Doll]

Siloviki

hahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa shame on me!
Силовики! 

[fathertime]

Some problems with American media. 


Evening news: covers local news stories, and when they do cover world events they usually just repeat with our 'representatives' say. 


Talk Radio:  Will have a longer conversation but many times the personalities are so bombastic and one-sided that nobody wants to go on the show...so mostly people get a one-sided analysis. 


Internet:  People usually simply go to websites that repeat their side of the story and reaffirm what they already believe (muzh  )


A lot of times, if a politician is questioned, he doesn't answer the question he works around it, and if he is pressed he works around it again, and then the segment is over.


Among younger people there is little interest/understanding in world events, as they are usually out whooping it up, or stoned!  All in all the American public is mislead (willingly sometimes) rather easily, in my opinion!
Fathertime!


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[Doll]

If you report a post do not take matters in your own hand. Content  removed.- Mod 3

[lordtiberius]

I do believe the Ukrainian people are a resilient people.  You don't?

[lordtiberius]

Putin wants a dysfunctional Ukraine because if Ukraine succeeds and it will, that is the end end of Putin.  I think some of his buddies are plotting his demise as we speak.  The guy is the new Slobodan

[Shadow]

BBC and PBS are available here, though I don't watch much television.  I've seen Frontline, though I usually watch it online if the subject interests me.  Frontline is often critical of the US government.  Tell me of a programme comparable to this report about Russia, on Russian state owned television -


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/united-states-of-secrets/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/united-states-of-secrets/http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/government-elections-politics/where-is-voter-discrimination-the-worst/


I read the BBC site.  It is not slanted in terms of pro Britain, but I do think it is leftwing.

So you do not watch either the BBC or the Russian state owned programs yet claim to be an expert on their content?
Perhaps you should not believe all the propaganda you hear. And internet clips do not count, as they do not show the full programming. It is simple to make a point by taking fragments out of context.

[Boethius]

I never claimed to be an expert.  However, I have do watch Russian media online, and yes, I have heard the Ukrainian government referred to as fascist.


As I posted, I do watch Frontline if the programme interests me.  Every single one of their programmes is posted online.  There is no need to be glued to a television, or watch at a specific time.  It is just a matter of convenience.  Incidentally, most of PBS's programming is not news related.  They broadcast concerts, travel programmes, history, and their children's programming is outstanding.  My children used to watch PBS when they were younger.


Please provide me to a link to a link to a Russian programme, on Russian government owned television, critical of the current government - any aspect. 

[Doll]

Too late,lordtiberius and Stirlitz- I reported to moderators.
To the rest of board members- they both used a VERY strong swearing towards Russia's President and Russia as a country.
 
It is totally unacceptable on this respected forum, it is against the rules.
Lord just repeated it without understanding, but Stirlitz did it purposely.

[BillyB]

Show me this "everywhere"- where I was "happy" about Ukrainians' hardships.

You believe Russia has the right to be involved in Ukraine. Every time there is a Ukrainian hardship, you turn your head the other way. You refuse to believe Putin sent troops into Ukraine to kill Ukrainians. If something said in the media that shows Russia in a bad light, you think it's propaganda. You avoided my question about Russia banning those who bought their gas from selling it to Ukraine which in turn is going to kill innocent civilians. You continue to believe Russia has nothing to do with Ukrainian hardships and only Ukrainian rebels and the fascists government there is causing all the problems. If a civil war brings Ukraine back to Russia, you will be happy. Along with war comes hardships.

  All in all the American public is mislead (willingly sometimes) rather easily, in my opinion!

Even with private media, reporters and editors have their beliefs and like to promote it. Obama can make a speech on his policies. A conservative reporter will report the truth on what Obama said and put his opinion in the article saying how those policies are bad for you. A liberal reporter can report the truth too and add his opinion on how those policies are good for you. As a reader, one has to figure out what is fact, what is opinion, and what opinion is fact. Humans aren't perfect. Can't expect the news, to be perfect either but privately owned news with competition from other privately owned news sources is better than all news being state owned.

I do believe the Ukrainian people are a resilient people.  You don't?

There will be a lot of survivors in Ukraine when faced with hardships. The ones most at risk are the weak which usually are the very young and very old. There will be limited gas available. There will be power outages. Strong people can survive in freezing temperatures for some days. Babies and the elderly will have a much tougher time.



Anybody know why the rebels are so intent on taking the Donbass airport when they don't own any military airplanes? Things that make you go Hmmmmmm. I think they are still following orders from Russia during the so called ceasefire.