My view of the war

[Doll]

Gator, the USA is bombing Iraq and nobody is  stopping it.
Russia is not interfering. Or EU.

[Doll]

There is a humanitarian need to assist Ukraine.  They were too weak to defend themselves against the Russian bully. 

It's not only the US and Canada on this side of the globe helping Ukraine, it is also Europe and Australia.

You can't figure out that with most of the world on Ukraine's side, there must be something wrong with Russian policy?

Iraq (again)

[calmissile]

Iraq (again)

I might partially agree with you.  We had won the war, but our stupid president gave away the victory.   He is only going back to try and save face.

We could have admitted defeat now, and stayed home.  However it would set a terrible precedent for us to do so.  Also, it is disrespectful to the many American soldiers that gave their lives to win the war the fist time.  I have mixed emotions about it.

Obama put us between a rock and a hard place (American expression).

[Doll]

I might partially agree with you.  We had won the war, but our stupid president gave away the victory.   He is only going back to try and save face.

 ).

Sorry for my ignorance- what war?

[Boethius]

I might partially agree with you.  We had won the war, but our stupid president gave away the victory.   He is only going back to try and save face.We could have admitted defeat now, and stayed home.  However it would set a terrible precedent for us to do so.  Also, it is disrespectful to the many American soldiers that gave their lives to win the war the fist time.  I have mixed emotions about it.Obama put us between a rock and a hard place (American expression).

No, you hadn't won the war.  Iran won, as the Sunni minority that ruled Iraq was replaced by an Iranian friendly Shia PM who routinely dismissed Sunni minority concerns.  That is why many Sunnis support, or, at a minimum, are indifferent to ISIS.

I doubt it was PNAC's intention for thousands of Americans to die in order to bolster Iran's desire to be a regional power.

[Doll]

No, you hadn't won the war.  Iran won, as the Sunni minority that ruled Iraq was replaced by an Iranian friendly Shia PM who routinely dismissed Sunni minority concerns.  That is why many Sunnis support, or, at a minimum, are indifferent to ISIS.\


I doubt thousands of Americans died in order to bolster Iran's desire to be a regional power.

Boe, you tell me who attacked the USA? What war exactly?

[Boethius]

The war in Iraq.

[Doll]

The war in Iraq.

I mean- who attacked the US?
Or NOW why is the US bombing this country and EU is being quiet?
Uh?

[Brasscasing]

What does the US have to do with it?
No, Russia is not intentionally harming Ukrainian economy.
The US that is on another half of globe interferes in this conflict is  intentionally harming Russian economy.
And you guys are saying it openly.

There is a humanitarian need to assist Ukraine.  They were too weak to defend themselves against the Russian bully. 

It's not only the US and Canada on this side of the globe helping Ukraine, it is also Europe and Australia.

You can't figure out that with most of the world on Ukraine's side, there must be something wrong with Russian policy?

Not that I'm splitting hairs but both Canada and the U.S. (Alaska) are considered neighboring countries of Russia, therefore, have the same vested interest in Russian aggression/expansionism as any of the smaller neighboring European countries.

Some recent incursions by Russia (and by no means the only) both Canada and the U.S. have been dealing with...

Canadian fighter jets intercept Russian bombers in Arctic

..."Fighter jets intercepted two Russian bombers flying about 75 kilometres off Canada’s Arctic coast in the early morning hours Thursday, NORAD revealed to CBC News.

Two CF-18s met the Tupolev Tu-95 long-range bombers, commonly referred to as "Bears," at around 1:30 a.m. PT as they flew a course in “the western reaches” of Canada’s Air Defence Identification Zone (ADIZ) over the Beaufort Sea, said Maj. Beth Smith, spokeswoman for North American Aerospace Defence Command"...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canadian-fighter-jets-intercept-russian-bombers-in-arctic-1.2772440

US, Canada, Intercept 6 Russian Planes, 2 Bombers Over Their Air Defense Identification Zone

 Two U.S. Air Force jets intercepted six Russian planes near Alaska, while Canada's air force intercepted two bombers that had almost reached its airspace, reports said, citing North American Aerospace Defense Command, or NORAD. U.S. officials reportedly believe the incidents were connected to Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko’s visit to the region.

http://www.ibtimes.com/us-canada-intercept-6-russian-planes-2-bombers-over-their-air-defense-identification-zone-1692342

Brass

[Boethius]

I mean- who attacked the US?
Or NOW why is the US bombing this country and EU is being quiet?
Uh?

Barking up the wrong tree on this one.  I never supported the invasion of Iraq on the flimsy pretext of a "mushroom cloud over New York".

As for now, I agree with others, the EU is quiet because the EU is also involved.  Note, Iraq has not only asked for these bombings, it has asked for Western boots on the ground.


Good points, Brass.

[fathertime]

So you are openly saying that the USA is harming Russia.
(I agree).

I think there is no doubt the US is trying to harm Russia and its economy.   It is futile though. Russia enjoys either support  or non-compliance from too many other nations to be isolated.   

Meanwhile we get bogged down with isis, while Turkey defies our commands to cooperate.  On the other side of the globe anger is rising in the Philippines again...we are there to try to  act as if we will control/intervene when China begins to flex its muscles in much the same way we do.

Just rushing around 'plugging leaks' and just creating more instead!

Fathertime!

[Boethius]

The U.S. is not harming Russia.  Russian leaders are doing that.  Had they not illegally annexed Crimea, and created a civil war in Eastern Ukraine, they would not be facing sanctions.

[fathertime]

There is a humanitarian need to assist Ukraine.  They were too weak to defend themselves against the Russian bully. 

It's not only the US and Canada on this side of the globe helping Ukraine, it is also Europe and Australia.

You can't figure out that with most of the world on Ukraine's side, there must be something wrong with Russian policy?

The countries/regions you mentioned do not constitute 'most of the world'.  In addition, because a block of countries  ( that almost always band together) have decided they oppose Russia that alone doesn't say Russia policy isn't justified (from their perspective).  If one were to objectively look at what the US has done in various countries,  it could be seen as aggressive and cost us dearly.

Fathertime!

[fathertime]

I might partially agree with you.  We had won the war, but our stupid president gave away the victory.   He is only going back to try and save face.

We could have admitted defeat now, and stayed home.  However it would set a terrible precedent for us to do so.  Also, it is disrespectful to the many American soldiers that gave their lives to win the war the fist time.  I have mixed emotions about it.

Obama put us between a rock and a hard place (American expression).

 
I don't see how you could EVER say we won in Iraq. .how was this ever a win-win? 

Fathertime!

[Boethius]

A Ukrainian reporter's recent trip to Kharkiv.  The important thing to note here it that the "pro Russian" sentiment was not spontaneous, but created, and largely directed, from Russia.  This is what most posters mean when they refer to Russia's war against Ukraine, which likely was planned when the Euromaidan protest was gaining momentum last November -

Alarming news has been coming from Kharkiv, a key city in Eastern Ukraine. Whoever follows reports in the media alone might think that it is on the verge of a separatist revolt. Reports come of occasional explosions here and there. Rumours of the flags of a “Kharkiv People’s Republic” sewn in underground workshops are spreading. Videos with appeals of “guerrillas” promising an end to the “junta” appear online. Is there really a threat? And will Kharkiv follow in the footsteps of Donetsk and Luhansk?

It is hard to feel any threat as I roam around the city. At first glance, life here is calm here. Traffic is dense on central roads; a happy throng of students hangs out on Ploshcha Svobody, the Freedom Square; and a tent collecting donations for the army stands before the building of the Oblast Council. Still, this quiet routine does not guarantee that the situation is actually completely under control. Just a few months ago, Donetsk too was hardly bothered by a handful of people occupying the Oblast State Administration (ODA) and lived its quiet parallel life. Very soon, it saw missiles raining over the city. 

Kharkiv differs from Donetsk, like a worker from an old influential bureaucrat. The former is used to acting directly, on impulse, with force. The latter weighs things up and uses reasoning. One swears loudly, the other doesn’t, but remembers everything and chooses the appropriate time for manoeuvres. Kharkiv’s former status of a capital, grandiose architecture, cosmopolitan youth and the glory of an academic city obligate it to behave accordingly. When an uncontrolled pro-Russian crowd raged in downtown Kharkiv in March, it did not attract mass support and compassion of the locals, unlike in Donetsk. Kharkiv does not stand in the middle of mining villages with poor population that could have risen for a revolt.

“Actually, there were only Russians and Oplot (a pro-Russian Kharkiv-based fight club led by Yevhen Zhylin who fled Ukraine. Oplot reportedly participated in March attacks on Kharkiv EuroMaidan activists and journalists. It was when Serhiy Zhadan, a well-known modern writer from Kharkiv, was seriously injured – Ed.), everything was well organised, this was not a spontaneous popular revolt,” said Olena Levytska, a local EuroMaidan activist. “The muscular men who fought in front of the ODA and seized it, were brought here in minivans. The ‘assault force’ of the crowd that stormed the Oblast Administration building and kicked out Ukrainian activists that were inside, were athletes and professional fighters. The police did not get in their way.”

"The Russian border is just 38 kilometres away from Kharkiv. It’s about 80 km to Belgorod (the closest big city in Russia – Ed.). The presence of our eastern neighbour has always been very noticeable here. Kharkiv is actually a border city. There were lots of Russians here earlier – plenty of cars with Belgorod license plates on the roads. They bought food, clothes and other things at our Baraban (the Barabashovo Market), because shopping was always far cheaper in Ukraine. Many Russians have always worked in Kharkiv because Belgorod Oblast has high unemployment, so they would come to work here. The Russians also took part in (pro-Russian – Ed.) protests here, which is why they initially seemed so big. Even today, the Russians who live and work here, are clearly waiting for some commotion,” Levytska says. March and early April were uneasy in Kharkiv. During this period, separatists seized the building of the Oblast State Administration several times, but withdrew each time. After the Ukrainian-Russian border was almost closed, movement, anti-government rallies attracted fewer participants and became far less aggressive. The decisive battle for the Oblast Administration building took place on April 8. On this day, the police were able to regain the seized building and arrest about 70 pro-Russian fighters who for the most part, it later emerged, were members of Oplot. After this, street fights came to an end and calm reigned in the city.

Once the border between Ukraine and Russia was closed, it became calmer in Kharkiv. You won’t really see any cars with Russian licence plates on the streets and local separatists have become illegal and gone underground. But most of the patriots here feel that it’s not so underground, because the separatist movement is directly supported by the city Mayor, Hennady Kernes. Anti-Ukrainian sentiments are very wide-spread among people working at budget institutions, the prosecution office, the police as well as the local authority.

“I work at a medical university. In our department, all the employees of the older generation advocated Russia – aggressively so, but they have calmed down now. Perhaps something started to get through to them, I don’t know … There used to be propaganda in favour of the “Kharkiv People’s Republic” at the market, but people started to complain about these campaigners and they disappeared,” said Iryna Lytvynenko, a Kharkiv resident.

According to the locals, all panic-filled rumours are generally spread on the vast Barabashovo Market, but it is hard to say whether this is done deliberately, or whether people are just gossiping. Quite recently, someone said that “Kharkiv People’s Republic” flags were being sewn in underground workshops. This information spread like wildfire through the city, but it was impossible to find any confirmation.

Many of the traders on the market are sympathetic towards Russia and Putin, but at the same time, business owners do not need war. Kharkiv is more dependent on small business, which is very sensitive to turmoil, than Donetsk and Luhansk. No one wants the Donbas scenario there. The fact that the separatist uprising did not gain mass support in Kharkiv is possibly because it is largely a city of traders, not workers. But the movement has not been entirely crushed, it is simply in hiding, and no one can say when and how it will manifest itself again. The Ukrainian government have become stronger now and there are no longer any questions about its legitimacy, so the separatists have to wait for the next excuse for activity.

“The company where I work monitored sentiments in Kharkiv during and after the Maidan. The actual share of the pro-Russian crowd was 30%. This figure did not change from one opinion poll to another. Another 15% are active Ukrainian patriots. The rest are a very passive mass with limited interests and indifference about everything,” says Kharkiv resident Anton Vasylenko.

There is actually a confrontation in Kharkiv between separatist and patriotic-minded citizens. But it has not been really noticeable so far, taking place in gateways and in the courtyards of residential areas. Almost every night, the slogans “For Novorossiya”, “Novorossiya – is peace” and “Kharkiv is Russia” appear on the walls of buildings. Someone regularly paints over them, but they reappear. Walls have transformed into a kind of chat, where patriots and separatists leave messages for one another. The former draw the Ukrainian flag, while the latter slap red paint on them, symbolising the blood of the Donbas residents that Ukraine has shed in the East. To many, though, this blood-stained flag means quite the opposite: Ukraine bleeding to death as a result of the Kremlin’s aggression and terrorist attacks.

Even if the underground anti-Ukrainian movement exists, it is just that, not open massive separatist movement similar to that which unfolded in the Donbas this spring. The separatists in Kharkiv are small illegal groups, which do not really have any power or mass support from the locals. On the one hand, this is a troubling red flag: the Donbas, too, had separatism in the form of small marginal organisations before it finally exploded. On the other hand, such elements cannot succeed without the support of the local authority and silent sabotage of law enforcement. The main thing that differentiates Kharkiv from the Donbas is the loyalty of the local authority to Kyiv. The revolt in Kharkiv came to an immediate halt after the oblast and city councils refused to support the separatists, and the police cleaned out the seized ODA just once.

However, Kharkiv supporters of the EuroMaidan feel that such loyalty is temporary and opportunistic. Therefore, they are convinced that a relapse may occur unless the central government conducts lustration in the city and punishes those guilty of the organisation and support of anti-Ukrainian riots.

“The revolution has changed the colours of posters: in January and February they had “Kharkiv stands for stability” on a blue background, and now, they say “For peace and order” on a yellow-and-blue background (the colours of Ukrainian flag – Ed.). Meanwhile, former Oblast Administration Chairman Dobkin (at the end of January, Mykhailo Dobkin and Kharkiv Oblast Administration deputies wore T-shirts saying “Berkut” to show support of the notorious special-purpose police that shot at Maidan protesters in February – Ed.) is not regarded as separatist, and the mayor cannot be punished because he has health problems (Hennadiy Kernes survived an assassination attempt in April, leaving him partly paralyzed – Ed.). That’s it for the changes,” says Kharkiv resident Oleksiy Stepiuk pessimistically.

This situation concerns many others. The local patriotic community believes that Hennadiy Kernes is secretly behind the separatists’ actions and is merely waiting for the opportunity to declare Kharkiv a republic, with himself at the helm. “I shall not allow fighting in Kharkiv, we are taking a different path,” he once said reportedly. What path he has in mind, remains a mystery.

I can assure you that nothing happens in Kharkiv without Kernes’ participation. Remember this when you see something unfolding here. He has some well-fed EuroMaidan activists, as well as Communists under his control, all those conflicts here that were aired on TV, are largely a staged show. The Mayor wants to create the impression that Kharkiv is not calm, that the battle continues. Why is he doing this? Possibly to show Kyiv that he is the only one capable of maintaining order here – that he is useful. He is always playing some game of his own. But no one knows exactly what kind of game it is,” said Denys Tkachenko, a local publisher.

On September 18, there really was a minor scuffle between local Communists and football ultras in the city centre, which seemed much bigger on TV than it was in reality. About 30 mostly elderly people came out onto Ploshcha Svobody with Soviet flags and were attacked by a group of masked young men. At first, the police allowed the attackers to take and tear up several placards, before stepping in to end the conflict.

Mykola Pakhnin, Adviser to Ihor Baluta, current Chairman of the Kharkiv Oblast Administration, says that “Before the assassination attempt on Kernes, there were constantly disturbances and provocations in the city. They usually occurred on Saturdays and Sundays. The tactic was to besiege the Oblast Administration, just as in Donetsk. After the assassination attempt on the Mayor, protests came down to a minimum. This was very noticeable. While everyone expected disturbances on May 1, 9, and 11 (May 1 was celebrated as Labour Day in Soviet times, while May 9 is Victory Day – Ed.), the month passed very peacefully, we were surprised. But as soon as Hennadiy Kernes reappeared in Kharkiv in June, disorder reigned once more. There was a fight on May 22. In each case, the provocateurs were strange unknown people in masks.”

At the same time, Pakhnin is convinced that the Donetsk scenario is no longer an option for Kharkiv because the separatist movement in the city was crushed by the police.

“Can the Donetsk scenario be repeated here? I am convinced that it can’t. Why didn’t the police act in spring, in the wake of it all? Everyone was very demoralised. At that time, Kharkiv’s Berkut had only just returned from the Maidan; many local police officers were lying wounded in hospital, forgotten by everyone. Baluta took over the oblast in chaos. Chief of the Kharkiv police, Anatoliy Dmytriev, had difficult work ahead of him. More than 300 participants of mass conflict were arrested. The leaders were detained. The entire movement in Kharkiv was left completely without leaders. The “Kharkiv People’s Republic” project ended as a fiasco. As far as the last explosions (at least two occurred on September 26. Earlier in September, a few groups of diversionists acting upon instruction of the Russian secret services were detained in Kharkiv, the SBU reported. They were preparing to destabilize peaceful cities with explosions in administrative buildings – Ed.) and terrorist acts are concerned, I’m sure that they were organised by external forces and diversionist groups that are coming to us from the area of the anti-terrorist operation,” Pakhnin stated.

Of course, Kharkiv Oblast is not at all like Donetsk Oblast. The difference is the most striking in small towns. There are hardly any huge plants here, the architecture is different, as well as the language and people. But it appears that neither Putin nor Kernes intend to care about the locals’ opinion. So, whether Kharkiv remains part of Ukraine depends, first and foremost, on the Ukrainian government and its ability to protect territorial integrity and state sovereignty.

http://ukrainianweek.com/Society/121027

[calmissile]

Nice post Boe, thanks

[AC]

Agreed.  The maneuvers by Russian Intelligence services (FSB) inside of Ukraine were mostly obvious and poorly planned, at least in the case of Kharkiv.  Perhaps their maneuvers in Odessa were better planned, but for the time being the Russians have been rebuffed. 

Ukraine seems to be gaining speed in it's consolidation of military powers and World opinion combined with effective US and EU sanctions against the bully from the East.  Putin's number one asset which he has been hoping to use against Ukraine and the EU is natural gas, but even that is likely not going to work either.

As Russia will attempt to freeze the Ukrainians this winter, the Ukrainians will simply shut-off electricity and water to the Crimea; a logical tit-for-tat.

[JayH]

From the time Russia started invading  Ukraine( in the Crimea) the  wheels were turning on the oil issue( actually on the replacement of Russian gas also).In the same way a catalyst for the demise  of the former Soviet Union was precipitated by driving oil prices down and sending oil prices below the cost of production in the USSR thus depriving them of foreign currency to prop up the failing Soviet economies -- the idea was immediately revived to give sanctions ( & verbal warnings) some real bite.
              Where did  Obama go after his swing thru Europe discussing the Russian invasion- yep- to Saudi Arabia.
              A point on the Russian gas front that so many persist in believing is irreplacable--from the second they started invading the Crimea the writing was on the wall about Russian gas being replaced.Everyone knew Russia would attempt to use it as a weapon-- so the dependency will be short lived.
              The net affect of oil prices dropping will have a huge impact on the Russian economy-- along with the uncertainty about the gas future-- it will completely unhinge the Russian economy.
              Right now--Russia is on borrowed time to rejoin the world.Only getting rid of Huilo and his Kremlin cronies will save Russia now.It is not a good thing--but it is what the fools deserve and for the rest of the world--it is good in the sense that it will stop the current craziness.

[Doll]

Barking up the wrong tree on this one.  I never supported the invasion of Iraq on the flimsy pretext of a "mushroom cloud over New York".

As for now, I agree with others, the EU is quiet because the EU is also involved.  Note, Iraq has not only asked for these bombings, it has asked for Western boots on the ground.


Good points, Brass.

Iraq asked for bombing?

[calmissile]

Iraq asked for bombing?

Yes, of course they did.  They even painted a big X on the roofs so we would  know where to bomb.

I think you'll fit right in when you get back to Russia.   

[Doll]

Yes, of course they did.  They even painted a big X on the roofs so we would  know where to bomb.

I think you'll fit right in when you get back to Russia.   

What?

[Doll]

Yes, of course they did.  They even painted a big X on the roofs so we would  know where to bomb.

I think you'll fit right in when you get back to Russia.   

Like I said- very cinical. Real face.
In none of my post I've ever " was happy" about this war or Ukraininan people hardships. On a Russian women forum NOBODY ever says they are "looking forward" to see Ukraine hardships.
Here it is a norm.
 I am dissapointed.

[Gator]

Like I said- very cinical. Real face.
In none of my post I've ever " was happy" about this war or Ukraininan people hardships. On a Russian women forum NOBODY ever says they are "looking forward" to see Ukraine hardships.
Here it is a norm.
 I am dissapointed.

Doll, I believe that you do not wish hardships on Ukraine.  Yet your precious Putin and many under him seemingly do not care.  Miss Ameno has shown video clips of "rebels" firing mortars into populated areas.  She has shown photos taken by Russian military of the horrifically mutilated and burned corpses of UA soldiers, most of them the age of your son.  A significant part of the infrastructure of Lugansk and Donetsk is destroyed as are residential buildings. 


This is bloody war, and war destroys and kills.  Diplomacy would not have done this.  Putin selected the option of bloody war rather than genuine diplomacy.  Why?  He knew he would lose a diplomatic decision. 


What concerns me is that a RW residing in America with American friends and Western news would support Putin, especially if she is as interested in this conflict as you appear to be.   

I get the same from my 15-yo stepson who tends to base his decisions on his immediate feelings rather than a detailed analysis.  He told me over the weekend that one reason Russia took Crimea is because the US was planning to establish a military base there with Ukraine's consent.  He immediately grasps any propaganda and any point from his friends in Russia to debate with me because he is in a state of denial.  He can not believe his mother country of Russia is causing this devastation - to him this is just about Ukrainians fighting Ukrainians.

I wait for him to become enlightened.  It will not happen soon.  It surprises me because he is intelligent, making almost all A's in school.  My primary hope for now is that he will meet an enlightened young girl. 

[AC]

My primary hope for now is that he will meet an enlightened young girl.

From Ukraine?

 

[Doll]

Supporting President is one thing, wishing other nation collapse is another.
 Here people are openly happy about hardships of other nation.