Russian Women Discussion

RWD Discussion Groups => Trip Reports => Topic started by: ML on May 30, 2019, 03:53:18 PM

Title: It’s KYIV
Post by: ML on May 30, 2019, 03:53:18 PM: Quote from: Trenchcoat on May 30, 2019, 03:42:08 PM
I just do as I please, . . .

Then I say you are a complete liar.

I know you would not dare, even if it pleased you, to go to Beijing and repeatedly call the city Peiping or anything other than Beijing.

And I know you would not dare, even if it leased you, to go to Mumbai and repeatedly call the city Bombay.

As you should well know, I have spoken out here repeatedly about people bullying you.

But since you are being simply obstinate and a liar (and it has nothing to do with what you please . . . but rather your desire to be disrespectful) about the correct spelling and pronunciation of the capital city of Ukraine, then . . .

Your first and last warning from me.
Title: It’s KYIV
Post by: Trenchcoat on May 30, 2019, 04:38:55 PM: Quote from: ML on May 30, 2019, 03:53:18 PM
Then I say you are a complete liar.

I know you would not dare, even if it pleased you, to go to Beijing and repeatedly call the city Peiping or anything other than Beijing.

And I know you would not dare, even if it leased you, to go to Mumbai and repeatedly call the city Bombay.

As you should well know, I have spoken out here repeatedly about people bullying you.

But since you are being simply obstinate and a liar (and it has nothing to do with what you please . . . but rather your desire to be disrespectful) about the correct spelling and pronunciation of the capital city of Ukraine, then . . .

Your first and last warning from me.

I did say Peking & Bombay I just thought better, so although I do as I please I would generally refer to them as their current name Beijing and even Mumbai.

Kiev and Kyiv though pronounced differently still sound very similar so I would still say Kiev rather than Kyiv as it virtually sounds the same. Plus knowing more Russian than Ukrainian it would fit in more with any attempt at Russian I spoke. I wouldn't attempt to speak Ukrainian since I know practically nothing of it.
Title: It’s KYIV
Post by: Trenchcoat on May 31, 2019, 12:44:33 PM: Of course how could I have forgotten Bombay Rice, wouldn't quite sound the same being called Mumbai Rice I think ;)
Title: It’s KYIV
Post by: GQBlues on June 03, 2019, 01:09:19 PM: ...and so I wonder...why not say Roma instead of Rome, Muenchen instead of Munich, Maynila instead of Manila?
Title: It’s KYIV
Post by: ML on June 03, 2019, 01:54:19 PM: Quote from: GQBlues on June 03, 2019, 01:09:19 PM
...and so I wonder...why not say Roma instead of Rome, Muenchen instead of Munich, Maynila instead of Manila?

I am in complete agreement with this.

We should be pronouncing and spelling the names as the countries wish.

Not just Muenchen (actually München) but Deutschland, Norge, Sverige, etc.
Title: It’s KYIV
Post by: GQBlues on June 03, 2019, 02:37:45 PM: Of course if we did just that, then even Texans wouldn't know where Tenochtitlan is, or if it's actually edible.
Title: It’s KYIV
Post by: SANDRO43 on June 03, 2019, 04:25:30 PM: Generally, foreign toponyms are "adjusted" in a different language to make them more readily familiar and their writing/pronunciation easier. Capitals and major cities/rivers are the first to follow this fate - with some exceptions like Livorno, which became Leghorn to the Brits when a victualling base for the Royal Navy in the Napoleonic Wars, maybe because its local white fowls had prominent leg spurs:

(http://www.polloruspante.it/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/livornese.jpg)

Should Bollywood now become Mumblewood ;D?
Title: It’s KYIV
Post by: SteveInBoston on June 03, 2019, 05:38:51 PM: Quote from: GQBlues on June 03, 2019, 01:09:19 PM
...and so I wonder...why not say Roma instead of Rome, Muenchen instead of Munich, Maynila instead of Manila?

Because Rome, Munich and Manila is the English version of those cities. Kyiv is the English version of Київ.
Title: It’s KYIV
Post by: GQBlues on June 03, 2019, 05:59:35 PM: Quote from: SteveInBoston on June 03, 2019, 05:38:51 PM
Because Rome, Munich and Manila is the English version of those cities. Kyiv is the English version of Київ.

Which English dictionary is it you’re basing this on?
Title: It’s KYIV
Post by: SteveInBoston on June 03, 2019, 06:14:09 PM: Ukrainian phonetic translation.

К = K
и = y
ї = i
в = v
Title: It’s KYIV
Post by: GQBlues on June 03, 2019, 07:00:53 PM: So it became obvious to you now too that the ‘English’ version still have it as Kiev, right?
Title: It’s KYIV
Post by: msmob on June 03, 2019, 07:09:31 PM: Walked RIGHT on go this one GQB..

Please visit your very own nation's web site for Ukraine..

http://ua.usembassy.gov/ (http://ua.usembassy.gov/)

Where is it based?

KYIV

This has not been your day))
Title: It’s KYIV
Post by: GQBlues on June 03, 2019, 07:45:07 PM: When you sober up a bit and quit languishing in pub logic, come back and understand what the dialogue was. So indulge me which English dictionary defines Kyiv and not Kiev.

And if it’s all about English version/s, I wonder what San Franciscan think about that subject et al...
Title: It’s KYIV
Post by: msmob on June 03, 2019, 08:01:11 PM: GQB,

I think you may be confusing your lifestyle and drinking habits with mine...

Your first mistake is a refusal to accept a 'howler'..

You second was to suggest a guy trying to lose 5kg more before getting hitched that he drinks booze ..at all

I crave a pint of ale / glass of wine))

Carry on failing..but thanks for the entertainment
Title: It’s KYIV
Post by: GQBlues on June 03, 2019, 08:47:21 PM: Not sure what ails you in your life bro, but alcohol cannot possibly be your last grasp at happiness, no?
Title: It’s KYIV
Post by: ML on June 03, 2019, 08:48:36 PM: Quote from: SteveInBoston on June 03, 2019, 05:38:51 PM
Because Rome, Munich and Manila is the English version of those cities. Kyiv is the English version of Київ.

No Steve you are missing the point.

When any NECESSARY translations are done for English (and other) readers, they should only be done to use the Latin alphabet.

Thus we need translations of Cyrillic, Arabic, Oriental languages, etc.

But we do NOT need to change anything for Roma, München, Deutschland, Norge, Sverige, etc.

Any names that are spelled by home countries that have Latin based characters, should NOT be changed by outsiders and further those countries should not lower themselves to ever use other than their original words. i.e. Italians should never use Rome in any documents, advertising, etc. And those in Deutschland should never use Germany.

And for those countries that do not have Latin based characters, we should use without fail the official Latin translated spelling that they wish.
Title: It’s KYIV
Post by: SteveInBoston on June 03, 2019, 09:53:32 PM: I do not understand what all this fuss is about. I just use the map names, in English. If I'm Swedish or Italian I'll use the map names per those languages.

Kiev and Kyiv seems to be the hot button topic. Kiev is the map name, in English, for the Russian version of the city. Kyiv is the English map name for the Ukrainian version.
Title: It’s KYIV
Post by: GQBlues on June 03, 2019, 10:21:57 PM: Good example is Banska Bystrica. In Latin, it would be Villa Nova, which in English would be ‘New Town’. I doubt Slovaks would appreciate it if you called that city in the English version.

Anyone know a city called The Angels?

Kyiv is Kyiv. Period.
Title: It’s KYIV
Post by: msmob on June 04, 2019, 12:24:34 AM: The 'fuss' in this case in the Ukrainians asking us not to continue using the Russified version of their capital city's name..

That is why the UK, US, etc., use KYIV..

Who still calls Ukraine, 'The Ukraine'?
Title: It’s KYIV
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 04, 2019, 10:00:05 AM: Quote from: msmob on June 04, 2019, 12:24:34 AM
The 'fuss' in this case in the Ukrainians asking us not to continue using the Russified version of their capital city's name..

That is why the UK, US, etc., use KYIV..

Who still calls Ukraine, 'The Ukraine'?

I do :D I just don't do it on here so much to stop people harping on about it. I'm sure most people in the UK believe it is stil called Kiev and will call it that, if they know of the other version they probably think it is interchangable or another valid pronounciation/spelling of it, but still essentially meaning the same.
Title: It’s KYIV
Post by: msmob on June 04, 2019, 10:07:39 AM: Quote from: GQBlues on June 03, 2019, 08:47:21 PM
Not sure what ails you in your life bro, but alcohol cannot possibly be your last grasp at happiness, no?

You aren't sure? You can't know ! ;)

I certainly crave a pin / glass of wine - but am more determined to fit that 1989 DJ ( tux) and make an 'honest woman' of SC ..
Title: It’s KYIV
Post by: msmob on June 04, 2019, 10:29:52 AM: Quote from: Trenchcoat on June 04, 2019, 10:00:05 AM
I do :D I just don't do it on here so much to stop people harping on about it. I'm sure most people in the UK believe it is stil called Kiev and will call it that, if they know of the other version they probably think it is interchangable or another valid pronounciation/spelling of it, but still essentially meaning the same.

This is so typical Trench

He now knows why it's called Kyiv / Ukraine ( as opposed to 'the' Ukraine - but uses the term to 'wind up' folk ..

..and you go to Kyiv with that attitude and wonder why you keep coming back with 'excuses' for failure ?
Title: Re: It’s KYIV
Post by: SANDRO43 on June 04, 2019, 03:44:29 PM: IINM, the name Киев/Київ is pronounced, both by Russians and Ukrainians, as KIIV. Hence the UKR transcription into the Latin alphabet is rather more accurate phonetically - since the middle E seems imperceptible (please correct me if I am wrong).

Quote
The city's name is said to derive from the name of Kyi, one of its four legendary founders.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev
Title: Re: It’s KYIV
Post by: ML on June 04, 2019, 08:06:43 PM: Quote from: SANDRO43 on June 04, 2019, 03:44:29 PM
IINM, the name Киев/Київ is pronounced, both by Russians and Ukrainians, as KIIV. Hence the UKR transcription into the Latin alphabet is rather more accurate phonologically - since the middle E seems imperceptible (please correct me if I am wrong).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev

As I hear it from folks who live there: The Ukrainian version sounds more like Cave, whereas the Russian version sounds more like Keev.
Title: Re: It’s KYIV
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 05, 2019, 02:15:35 PM: Quote from: ML on June 04, 2019, 08:06:43 PM
As I hear it from folks who live there: The Ukrainian version sounds more like Cave, whereas the Russian version sounds more like Keev.

Something sounding like Cave sounds awful, Keev sounds much better. Especially when you think Kyiv would sound similar to Keev, maybe a bit like Kyeev or something.
Title: Re: It’s KYIV
Post by: Boethius on June 05, 2019, 06:52:01 PM: KAYiv in Ukrainian, KEYef in Russian. Probably indiscernible to most non native speakers, and most would hear a "v" rather than an "f".

This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: It’s KYIV
Post by: SANDRO43 on June 06, 2019, 05:09:29 AM: Quote from: Boethius on June 05, 2019, 06:52:01 PM
KAYiv in Ukrainian, KEYef in Russian.
So it's like CAVE, as ML said. Quite a distortion of its written form, how odd :-\.
Title: Re: It’s KYIV
Post by: msmob on June 06, 2019, 05:32:08 AM: Kyiv - sounds like 'Kyyiv' and Kiev like 'Kiyev' .. according to Google translate ..;)
Title: Re: It’s KYIV
Post by: SANDRO43 on June 06, 2019, 03:59:40 PM: Quote from: msmob on June 06, 2019, 05:32:08 AM
Kyiv - sounds like 'Kyyiv' and Kiev like 'Kiyev' .. according to Google translate ..;)
Thanks, but:

- I don't think Google translate is very reliable as far as SOUNDS are concerned.
- Kyyiv. how would one pronounce that ::)? The problem is that English is so unorthograhic (inconsistent in its spelling, see http://www.floriani.it/English-eng.htm for more details) to be of little use as a guide to phonetics.

I prefer to rely on 'human' advice on this :).
Title: Re: It’s KYIV
Post by: Boethius on June 06, 2019, 04:37:25 PM: It's two syllables in Ukrainian, hence, not "CAVE".

Below is the pronunciation of Kyiv, first in Ukrainian, then in Russian, by a native speaker. ;)

This post was composed without the aid of google.

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1SyFAm9ZKbD (http://vocaroo.com/i/s1SyFAm9ZKbD)
Title: Re: It’s KYIV
Post by: SANDRO43 on June 06, 2019, 06:09:11 PM: Quote from: Boethius on June 06, 2019, 04:37:25 PM
It's two syllables in Ukrainian, hence, not "CAVE". Below is the pronunciation of Kyiv, first in Ukrainian, then in Russian, by a native speaker. ;)
Yes, I would transpose in Italian (we have vowel accents as diacritical marks, and no Ys ;)) as:

-UKR: Kì-iv
-RUS: Kì-ev

A disyllable with stress on the 1st syllable (Kì). No final F sound, although maybe it appears when other words follow, for an easier liaison.
Title: Re: It’s KYIV
Post by: msmob on June 06, 2019, 08:21:39 PM: Actually, surely having another word follow would change the name (ending ) - in Russian, surely ? ;) [ don't know Ukrainian well enough ]

The -ev surely DOES sound like and 'F' ... In English I often see Smirnov transliterated as Smirnof(f) ..Stroganov / Stronganoff

:rolleyes:
Title: Re: It’s KYIV
Post by: Boethius on June 06, 2019, 08:55:22 PM: Quote from: msmob on June 06, 2019, 08:21:39 PM
Actually, surely having another word follow would change the name (ending ) - in Russian, surely ? ;) [ don't know Ukrainian well enough ]

You mean cases.

Kyiv is the nominative case, so no change. It would change in other cases, in both Ukrainian and Russian, in most cases, identically. There is one more case in Ukrainian than there is in Russian. Proper use is what separates the "men from the boys" among non native speakers.

This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: It’s KYIV
Post by: msmob on June 07, 2019, 02:01:51 AM: Thanks, Boethius!

Can you explain to this 'boy' how places names become ( I call it 'Hispanicified') with 'eh' sounds added?

I hear Russians speak of Limassol as 'Limasoleh'..
Title: Re: It’s KYIV
Post by: SANDRO43 on June 07, 2019, 06:14:51 AM: Quote from: msmob on June 07, 2019, 02:01:51 AM
I hear Russian speak of Limassol as 'Lissamsoleh'..
Always? Or depends on sentence, and therefore case declension?

- Limassol is...
-...in/from/to Limassol
Title: Re: It’s KYIV
Post by: msmob on June 07, 2019, 06:41:30 AM: Quote from: SANDRO43 on June 07, 2019, 06:14:51 AM
Always? Or depends on sentence, and therefore case declension?

- Limassol is...
-...in/from/to Limassol

I don't know, Sandro ((

We'll wait for the cavalry to come !
Title: Re: It’s KYIV
Post by: Boethius on June 07, 2019, 08:46:40 AM: Quote from: msmob on June 07, 2019, 02:01:51 AM
Thanks, Boethius!

Can you explain to this 'boy' how places names become ( I call it 'Hispanicified') with 'eh' sounds added?

I hear Russians speak of Limassol as 'Limasoleh'..

That is declensions again. These are locative declensions -

Ukrainian - I live in Kyiv - Я в Києві живу.
Russian - I live in Moscow - Я живу в Москве.

I mixed up the word order, as that's another thing non native speakers don't do. The first sentence sounds more "natural" to me.

This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: It’s KYIV
Post by: msmob on June 07, 2019, 09:15:17 AM: THANK YOU, Boethius - can now read up and learn