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The reasonable people on the forums can see very clearly the attempt by Russia to invade Ukraine with paid thugs from all over Russia-- those also recruited for payment in Ukraine itself -- and then backed by the "green men" .
In particular in the rallies across Ukraine it has been these paid thugs at the centre of starting real violence.
Interestingly enough--when so many were killed in the Odessa fire-- and who are identifiable as not being Ukrainian citizens--within 48 hours Putin was back pedaling and distancing himself-- the reality and extent of that we are yet to see .Perhaps it was the fact that Ukrainians showed they would fight back that has deterred the lying bully Putin-- maybe he is actually scared to fight?
Piece by piece the intruders are being identified--here is an example-- more to come.
From St. Petersburg under the guise of a resident of Odessa demanded adherence to the Russian
People social network "Facebook" was identified by a photograph of one of the participants in the pro-Russian rally in Odessa, which was held on March 23. Odessite role, calling for adherence to Odessa RF, played Petersburgian Anton Raevskii. He is a member ogranizatsii "Black Hundreds." As can be seen from his channel on YouTube, copy the style of organization of Nazi Germany. Anton himself has tattoos on his hands with Nazi slogans.
http://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1.0-9/10270538_1392705224283389_891860457909977799_n.jpg
http://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1.0-9/10342499_1392705220950056_9001135240141570234_n.jpg
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That is one of the more interesting side of Ukraine deciding now to fight :
We are perhaps going to know more about those "pro" russians.
THey are hidden behing some uniform and balaclava.
But the fact is that corpses will speak more than the living.
And when Russia (propaganda) speaks about the "nazis of Kiev", it's the pot calling the kettle black.
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The 42 killed in Odessa have now been identified and named.More to come on where many non Ukrainians came from ad how they came to be there--it is still under investigation.
Some interesting aspects of Putin's recent comments-- it is possible that the intention was simply to destabilise Ukrainian life--to show that it was out of control. EG-- at Maidan- there is high possibility that Russian provocateurs were shooting in both directions with the intention of creating the stage for major clampdowns by Yanu etc. Looking at Putin in Sevastopol on may 9 and it being the organised showpiece parade of his recent acquisition!!--it was very pointed that all was good there.
Now that he has used his green men to invade there is an attempt to put others in the places "taken" and who will suffer the brunt of the Ukraine forces as they clean them up. All the while--Putin apparently with clean hands points at Ukraine governments war on its own people.
For my money-- exactly these tactics can be use to retake the Crimea and make it unusable by Russia in due course( after mainland Ukraine is stabilised).
So now--some more information on the hired thugs that Russia is recruiting--
In Russia being recruited mercenaries to send to Ukraine - EC
Throughout Russia conducted a set of professional mercenaries to send to Ukraine for participation in terrorist activities. This in his Facebook head of the Center for Military-Political Studies, a representative group "Information resistance" (IP) Dmitry Tymchuk.
"For at least the last two weeks in terrorist formations in the east we see widespread replacement of troops GRU General Staff of the Russian Federation for mercenaries arriving from Russia. First of all, military reserve, mostly with experience in service in the Russian Spetsnaz and experience of in hostilities (in particular, in the Caucasus). enough set of such professionally trained mercenaries Russian authorities spend almost the entire territory of the Russian Federation ... Even in Khabarovsk Krai Russia over the last 3 weeks in the local draft boards called reserve soldiers who served in the Spetsnaz GRU where they are asked to pay for a good part of the emerging groups in the wane in Ukraine for participation in terrorist activities. most actively similar work carried out in the Southern Federal District of the Russian Federation ", - wrote Tymchuk.
In addition, he said, simultaneously powerful process transfer from Russia weapons for terrorist groups in Donbass.
Tymchuk noted that locals in the Donbas receive $ 100 per day for participation in protest terrorists.
http://conflict.rbc.ua/rus/v-rossii-provoditsya-nabor-naemnikov-dlya-otpravki-v-ukrainu--10052014111800
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Part of Russian armored vehicles painted in the colors of United Nations Peacekeepers
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/politika/chastina-rosiyskoyi-bronetehniki-rozmalovana-kolorami-mirotvorciv-oon-pashinskiy-348987.html
Acting Chief of Staff Sergei Pashinsky told yesterday that some Russian armored vehicles on the border with Ukraine has painted the colors of the UN peacekeeping force - said the plot TSN.Tyzhden . He said that it was a whole convoy of armored vehicles. accordance with the provisions of the United Nations, on the introduction of peacekeeping forces can only be taken at a meeting of the UN Security Council. Pashinsky stressed that any incursion into the territory of Ukraine is regarded as a military aggression.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/politika/chastina-rosiyskoyi-bronetehniki-rozmalovana-kolorami-mirotvorciv-oon-pashinskiy-348987.html
Interesting-- time will tell if this is accuarate--but it would explain much of Putin's intentions in the short term.
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[b]Why the poll on self-rule was a farce[/b]
But it wasn’t a travesty because it violated the constitution, or that more than 100,000 pre-completed ballots were seized in favor of secession ahead of the vote. Or that there was a dismally low turnout, multiple voting occurring, or that proof of residence wasn’t a criterion to cast a ballot.
It was a sham because Moscow was behind the vote, just as it was behind the annexation of Crimea and now, the slow-motion invasion of eastern Ukraine, and the recent unrest in Odesa, Kharkiv and other regions.
It is all a Kremlin charade to impose its will on and cover up a foreign policy debacle on Ukraine after the democratic EuroMaidan Revolution in February toppled the criminal regime of disgraced ex-President Viktor Yanukovych. Putin and his minions in the state-controlled press corps had defended Yanukovych’s corrupt government until the very end.
http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/mark-rachkevych-why-the-poll-on-self-rule-was-a-farce-347475.html
It is beyond comprehension why some on the forums are intent on denying the reality-- here is another news story that spells out an explanation as clearly as anyone can.
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Until the majority of the Russian population really "sees" the extent to which Putin has been lying to them, they will still cling to his words. Unfortunately, since all radio and TV is state owned, they never will.
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Until the majority of the Russian population really "sees" the extent to which Putin has been lying to them, they will still cling to his words. Unfortunately, since all radio and TV is state owned, they never will.
Putin's popularity was hurting for a while during bad economic times but it's skyrocketed since he took over Crimea. This time is different. A lot of Russian people do want Ukraine annexed by Russia. Propaganda is not necessary to get the majority of Russians on board with that plan. Propaganda is necessary to convince the world Russia has rights in Ukraine, let them have their way in there and the West is at fault for starting the problems in Ukraine.
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Until the majority of the Russian population really "sees" the extent to which Putin has been lying to them, they will still cling to his words. Unfortunately, since all radio and TV is state owned, they never will.
The wheel will turn-- the more savage the sanctions and when that starts to bite-- Putin's "popularity" will evaporate. It is the oligarchs who will react when their wealth starts to evaporate.
Some think sanctions will not work-- but I am in no doubt if they are severe and far reaching( and uncompromising) and ongoing-- the Russian economy will go into reverse very fast.The steps to deprive Russian of foreign earnings are already underway-- and will accelerate if Russia does not reverse Putin's stupidity.
While sanctions are too slow for my liking-- in the long term they will have enormous impact on the Russian economy. My guess is not too many Russians really want to go back to 1990 !!! :)
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The reasonable people on the forums can see very clearly the attempt by Russia America to invade Ukraine Russia's sphere of influence with paid thugs from all over Russia the world -- those also recruited for payment in Ukraine America itself -- and then backed by the "green men" Obama.
In particular in the rallies across Ukraine it has been these paid thugs at the centre of starting real violence.
I fixed that for you.
Really, turn off the Fox and CNN and learn something (http://rt.com/news/158212-academi-blackwater-ukraine-military/) that isn't laced with left side propaganda.
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JayH watches Fox? More lies I mean half truths or incorrect statements from Putinistas
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“Really, turn off the Fox and CNN and learn something that isn't laced with left side propaganda”
So you consider the source for your Blackwater in Ukraine “RT” a viable news source? The following taken from wikipedia:
“The network asserts that RT offers a Russian perspective on global events. However critics have accused it of being a propaganda outlet for the Russian government. In 2013 President Putin admitted “Certainly the channel is funded by the government, so it cannot help but reflect the Russian government’s official position...”
Can you see the difference here? There’s no major media in the US that is directly funded by the US government. In Russia ALL the major media is directly funded by the Russian government, and is nothing more than “All Propaganda, All the Time”.
You want to know what the USA was upto in Ukraine? I’d be happy to tell you, I was involved in one of USAID’s programs. This program was funded by the USA and the purpose was to re-structure Ukraine’s K-12 educational curriculum to be more compatible with Europe’s
My own daughter was a student in this program. So I guess that makes us fascist provocateurs.
About 10% of USAID’s total amount amount spent in Ukraine went towards Chernobil related projects including putting up the 250 million USD to build the concrete sarcophagus around reactor #4. What a bunch of terrorists and fascists, right? Moscow, was not only responsible for the Chernovil disaster, but additionally failed to warn the residents of Kiev in time to avoid exposure, needlessly exposing hundreds of thousands to contamination. Has Moscow put up even one penny to fix the damage? No, of course not! If you’ve traveled in a large Ukrainian city, you may have noticed energy saving sodium vapor street lights, again paid for by USAID, this certainly shows that America is “up to no good” as well. These are the kind of projects that USAID has been financing. Russia views these “do-good” projects with alarm and of course spins them into some paranoid fantasy that gullible uninformed people seem to gobble up like candy.
Throughout history Moscow has made Ukraine one vast graveyard with its pogroms, purges, holodomor, civil war and chernovil. Show me even one person in Ukraine killed by the evil fascist Americans?? Yet, Americans are the bad guys, well of course... BTW, my Dad was stationed in your country during WWII until D-Day and lost two toes from frostbite during the battle of the Bulge. I ask that in his memory, you please stop calling us fascists.
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I fixed that for you.
Really, turn off the Fox and CNN and learn something (http://rt.com/news/158212-academi-blackwater-ukraine-military/) that isn't laced with left side propaganda.
Like I said--any reasonable person can see what is going on.You have shown yourself quite clearly as not being a reasonable person and opposed to free speech.Like Putin-- whose media is closed and closing more-like Yanukovytch and his failed regime who attempted to silence free speech--you Manny in your own little domain dare not allow free and fair comment.The parallels continue--you have your paid provocateurs spewing garbage to an enclosed environment and decline the option of them being criticised-- and now you come here to show your inability to even read.
I have posted many links to news stories-- if 1% is to the 2 organisations you suggest-- i would be very surprised. So really-- stick to your nonsensical cheer leading for Putin's Russia and corruption.
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Can you see the difference here? There’s no major media in the US that is directly funded by the US government. In Russia ALL the major media is directly funded by the Russian government, and is nothing more than “All Propaganda, All the Time”.
Yep, Big Business owns America and also the media. You really expect us to believe all the money the US is putting into Ukraine is for aid?
I couldn't follow your other rants since your post was all over the place.
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So.let's get this clear..for unbiased news reporting about what's really happening in Ukraine..we should be watching a news channel funded by the Russian government ....really ? really ?.........LOL.
I've heard it all now...and the Putler fanboys/girls on here will lap it up. :clapping:
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I fixed that for you.
Really, turn off the Fox and CNN and learn something (http://rt.com/news/158212-academi-blackwater-ukraine-military/) that isn't laced with left side propaganda.
LMFAO
My goodness Stuart, your brain has been turned to mush. I stopped by your propaganda forum the other day and boy, it definitely looks like a subsidiary of Russia Today. That's understandable, have to keep the missus happy, eh?
What surprised me was the hateful comment from Millaa. I'll give her no more than six month in the US before she either change her mind or she files for divorce. I KNOW for a fact that she will not be able to have a happy life in the USA with her views.
Maybe she should move to GB where manny of the Brits would bend over for a bunch of rubles.
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In the case of the chernovil concrete sarcophagus, the French contractor was chosen as the result of an international competition held by a Ukrainian committee, so to the best of my knowledge no American “big business” even received a penny from this project. the goal was to physically secure reactor #4, and this goal was accomplished. Russian contribution, exactly zero!
“my rant...”?
You mean, “speak at length in a wild, impassioned way”? would you prefer short, indifferent messages instead? Then you need to reconsider the subject matter...
Of course, big business has a lot of control over events in the USA, in Russia it’s the government that owns the businesses (including the media) and not the other way around, Here is a partial list of just the main TV stations that are directly owned by the Russian government
First Channel – national, state-owned channel – news and entertainment
Rossiya – national, state-owned channel – news and entertainment
Zvezda – national, owned by Russian Ministry of Defense
NTV – national commercial channel – news and entertainment
Russia K – state-owned – culture and arts
Russia 2 – state-owned, commercial
Russia 24 – state-owned – news channel
Petersburg – Channel 5 – state-owned – commercial
TV Center – owned by Moscow city government – news and entertainment
In Russia, journalists have been put in prison or murdered for speaking in opposition to government lies. Here’s a wikipedia article that claims 200 Russian journalists killed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia
You couldn’t follow my narrative, it’s freakin simple! After three years of living in Ukraine and watching Russian TV every single day, I never once heard the Russian media put any historical responsibility on Russia for any of the unfortunate events that took place in Ukraine’s recent history, such as:
Pogroms
Purges
Holodomor
bolshevik civil war
communism
Chernovil
let alone recent events in the Maidan
instead, you can’t watch a Russian TV for more than 15 minutes before you witness some exclamation about how evil America is, and how they ‘re responsible for everything from AIDS to promoting homosexuality, narcotics, and subversion, perversion, dispersion, incursion, Kursk submersion, etc.
I could go on but it would cross the the threhsold of being a rant!!!
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:clapping:
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”.
You want to know what the USA was upto in Ukraine? I’d be happy to tell you, I was involved in one of USAID’s programs. This program was funded by the USA and the purpose was to re-structure Ukraine’s K-12 educational curriculum to be more compatible with Europe’s
.
About 10% of USAID’s total amount amount spent in Ukraine went towards Chernobil related projects including putting up the 250 million USD to build the concrete sarcophagus around reactor #4. What a bunch of terrorists and fascists, right? Moscow, was not only responsible for the Chernovil disaster, but additionally failed to warn the residents of Kiev in time to avoid exposure, needlessly exposing hundreds of thousands to contamination. Has Moscow put up even one penny to fix the damage? No, of course not! If you’ve traveled in a large Ukrainian city, you may have noticed energy saving sodium vapor street lights, again paid for by USAID, this certainly shows that America is “up to no good” as well. These are the kind of projects that USAID has been financing. Russia views these “do-good” projects with alarm and of course spins them into some paranoid fantasy that gullible uninformed people seem to gobble up like candy.
That is interesting Krimister, thanks for posting it.
It brings up another topic,
As an American taxpayer I don’t like how little control I have over my tax dollars.
I’m sure a lot of our money was spent on worthwhile items, but I feel we should have a system here where we can choose where are federal tax dollars go. The options would be right on the tax return and look something like this:
A. Military spending
B. Domestic programs for the needy
C. Infrastructure improvements
D. Foreign aid
E. Salary for all of the govt. employees.
F. Congress’ choice (discretionary)
I am probably forgetting a few items, but they could be added in. the point being...this nation’s government is in debt in the neighborhood of 18 trillion, which begs the question…how the hell could we be borrowing money to spend money on lights in Ukraine? Why would our ‘representatives’ think they should be spending our money on things that we may very well not approve of. It is OUR money after all. Shouldn’t we have a more direct say (generally speaking) on what areas it is going?
Fathertime!
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you are a citizen of a nation that chooses it’s legislative members in a process known as “elections”. these elected members are then responsible for creating the budget. so by voting for legislative members whose views most closely resemble your own will provide you with influence over the budgets that they create, this is as good as it gets in a representative democracy.
Yes, our government has debt, about 28% of that debt is money that one branch of the government owes to another branch, like social security trust funds and the federal reserve.
China and japan together hold another 15%, this is a result of the USA’s trade deficit with these two countries. in the short term, this trade deficit is a stimulus to the economy, the USA gets goods it doesn’t have to pay for immediately and in return is loaned the money at a low interest rate. If we had to “pay cash” for all goods from China and Japan and weren’t allowed to run a deficit, Walmart would disappear overnight along with a lot of other companies and jobs.
As far as the federal deficit is concerned, please remember that we had a president who initiated two wars without funding either, hence their costs show up as a 1 trillion plus deficit, and in addition two tax cuts where 90% of the tax cuts went to richest section of the population and weren’t offset by spending cuts, hence this shows up as another 1 trillion plus deficit. on top of that we had the biggest financial crisis since the great depression which resulted in a large drop in tax revenue and increased spending. if we ran the USA without a deficit, we would need a massive spending cut which would cause a massive depression. so which course do you want, where we are now, or the massive depression??
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you are a citizen of a nation that chooses it’s legislative members in a process known as “elections”. these elected members are then responsible for creating the budget. so by voting for legislative members whose views most closely resemble your own will provide you with influence over the budgets that they create, this is as good as it gets in a representative democracy.
Yes, our government has debt, about 28% of that debt is money that one branch of the government owes to another branch, like social security trust funds and the federal reserve.
China and japan together hold another 15%, this is a result of the USA’s trade deficit with these two countries. in the short term, this trade deficit is a stimulus to the economy, the USA gets goods it doesn’t have to pay for immediately and in return is loaned the money at a low interest rate. If we had to “pay cash” for all goods from China and Japan and weren’t allowed to run a deficit, Walmart would disappear overnight along with a lot of other companies and jobs.
As far as the federal deficit is concerned, please remember that we had a president who initiated two wars without funding either, hence their costs show up as a 1 trillion plus deficit, and in addition two tax cuts where 90% of the tax cuts went to richest section of the population and weren’t offset by spending cuts, hence this shows up as another 1 trillion plus deficit. on top of that we had the biggest financial crisis since the great depression which resulted in a large drop in tax revenue and increased spending. if we ran the USA without a deficit, we would need a massive spending cut which would cause a massive depression. so which course do you want, where we are now, or the massive depression??
Thanks for posting that detailed information, but you must have misread the intent of my post Krimster, I realize that the deficit and debt isn’t the end of the world at this time, but I do view it as a problem, …I do disagree with the false choice you put at the end of your post (there are more options than the 2) but that is not important. I realize how the system works currently, but at this point I’d like for us taxpayers to have a more direct say regarding how the money is spent. I realize this will not be happening anytime soon, but when I hear that my tax dollars are buying streetlights in Ukraine, rather than being spent on something that I feel is more beneficial to us citizens, it doesn't make me feel good about the decisions our ‘representatives’ are making with our money. I also realize that the idea I proposed could create a different set of problems if certain safeguards weren't put in place, but I would like to see some version of it, but I don’t think it will happen in my lifetime. I'd like to hear more of your opinion on these matters.
Thanks,
Fathertime!
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I have never supported an income tax. But if we have to pay it, shouldn't we have an option to earmark its use? Congress proposes legislation, bit who says we the people can't advise?
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....I realize this will not be happening anytime soon, but when I hear that my tax dollars are buying streetlights in Ukraine, rather than being spent on something that I feel is more beneficial to us citizens, it doesn't make me feel good about the decisions our ‘representatives’ are making with our money. I also realize that the idea I proposed could create a different set of problems if certain safeguards weren't put in place, but I would like to see some version of it, but I don’t think it will happen in my lifetime. I'd like to hear more of your opinion on these matters....
Every politicians have their own array of lobbyists.
Don't believe for a minute that those street lights in Ukraine was done out of the kindness of our hearts and that we have so much money available we just don't know what to do with it. Fat corporate lobbyists are lined up for every individual brickhead running for office in Washington. So in some silly ways, it doesn't matter if you elected Bevis over Butthead, monies will filter its way through those lobbyists to suck up monies from all of us one way or another.
Hell, IRS just blew nearly 150 billion in improper EIT payments since 2003 and no one even noticed. You think a few street lights anywhere in this silly world would matter all that much in the overall scheme of things?
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the point being...this nation’s government is in debt in the neighborhood of 18 trillion, which begs the question…how the hell could we be borrowing money to spend money on lights in Ukraine? Why would our ‘representatives’ think they should be spending our money on things that we may very well not approve of. It is OUR money after all. Shouldn’t we have a more direct say (generally speaking) on what areas it is going?
Fathertime!
Hey Fathertime! Like you, sometimes I don't like where our tax dollars are spent and it's good citizens keep pressuring politicians to do a good job or get fired. But we have to look at all the good with the bad. With debt we have to look at the other side of the coin, the health of a nation's economy and usually it's good. Take a look at the chart in the link below pertaining to 2012 debt. Even China is in the top 20 for debt. Countries with the biggest debts tend to be prosperous nations. Most nations would love to be in our shoes even if they had to adopt our debt with the economy.
We can take the UK's and Germany's debt and it will equal ours. Per person, one could conclude they are worse off than America. UK is in debt to America the most. Although we owe nations, nations owe us. What you see as debt now isn't so big if those in debt to us pay up.
America has control of the World's bank and International Monetary Fund because we supply those institutions with the most money. Out of all the nations in the world, we have the most money to loan or give and part of our foreign policy is to use that money to prevent wars such as done in the Middle East and help people of other nations as Krimster pointed out with Ukraine to facilitate friendly relations. Some people like to believe America throwing money around the world is primarily for sinister purposes but I don't buy it.
http://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2079rank.html?countryname=United States&countrycode=us®ionCode=noa&rank=2#us
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Another interesting link --it is self explanotory. Manny--if you need someone to do a decent interpretation/translation I will organise it for you.( btw-- This link is not a US one !!--AGAIN!!) :) The Kremlin rewarding the favoured few who report in the way required.
Quoting--
"some time ago there was information about some "300 journalists worthy" to be awarded "for the Crimea." Recently, walking between the towers of the Kremlin, we happened to see lists of these journalists.
We want to share these lists with you. Lists of our habit we have removed "intimate" information like registration, passport numbers, machines and phones, but I think many of you will be able to identify his friends, awarded this "honor" to be marked by the "Chief"
ceremony will take place in two stages 14 and 19 May in the first building of the Kremlin.
According to our source in AP RF, number of publications designation came "from above" for listing as many people to "Head" encouraged by the number of loyal SMIshnikov him. Well, probably to "picture was" ...
following lists:
Medal of the Order "For merits before Fatherland» I and II degree will be awarded:e towers of the Kremlin, we happened to see lists of these journalists.
http://b0ltai.wordpress.com/2014/05/13/%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE-%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B4%D1%8F%D1%82-%D0%B7%D0%B0-%D0%BA%D1%80%D1%8B%D0%BC-%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9-%D1%81%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%BA/
This is in addition to the link and is translated-approximately.
"Among the recipients Putin 300 journalists turned Nazi Steshin. Fascism will not pass, cheers. http://b0ltai.wordpress.com/2014/05/13/кого-наградят- .. Alexander Volodarsky: I then asked to write about Dmitry Steshin. As it turned out, this person is still not known in Ukraine. Steshin I learned about 5-6 years ago - Komsomolskaya Pravda correspondent conducted openly Nazi blog (now juiciest moments in it cleaned up). But at work he was doing all the same spread ultranationalist ideas, though in a more restrained and sleek form. Incitement and anti-migrant antiromskoy hysteria biased articles against the anarchists and anti-fascists, as we love all. In 2008, during the Russian invasion of Georgia, Steshin went to the place of fighting and gave out a packet of promotional materials, one of which depict the valiant act: distracted by a woman with a gun and let her shoot. "I started jumping from BTR, pulled one foot and saw himself aimed at automatic. His kept girl, Georgian, in the form of bullet-proof vest and helmet on it ... I did not notice it .. Distance to 6 meters, no more. I waved to her, "I'm a journalist!" And said softly close because there was. She lowered her machine, and at this time it cut the queue in half ... " In 2009-2010, became known fact his close friendship with Nikita Tikhonov, killer Stas Markelov and Anastasia Baburova. The journalist was a witness in the case. Most witnesses among friends Tikhonov-Khasis eventually became defendants in the "case BORN" or fled the country, but it does not Steshina touched, golden pen Komsomolskaya Pravda continues to write. Here - what BORN: http://lenta.ru/articles/2014/02/17/born/ course Steshin was sent to Ukraine, first to the Maidan, and later in the South-East. It was he who wrote about the burning Conservatory before it was set on fire. Similarly, he wrote in advance of the failed capture of the Verkhovna Rada. Now reporter publishes exclusive materials torture Ukrainian security officials - militants who are located extremely unfriendly towards the press (rather unfriendly to take other journalists captured) he is allowed to freely shoot even war crimes, knowing that they will be presented in the right light. In 2009, when the Komsomolskaya Pravda trampled on the memory of Ivan Khutorskoy office was attacked by KP (however, that the attack was symbolic: stones and smoke bombs). Then I took without special approval for this episode, he says, journalists can not touch it, even the most vile. I was wrong. Some can even touch"
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That is interesting Krimister, thanks for posting it.
It brings up another topic,
As an American taxpayer I don’t like how little control I have over my tax dollars.
I’m sure a lot of our money was spent on worthwhile items, but I feel we should have a system here where we can choose where are federal tax dollars go. The options would be right on the tax return and look something like this:
A. Military spending
B. Domestic programs for the needy
C. Infrastructure improvements
D. Foreign aid
E. Salary for all of the govt. employees.
F. Congress’ choice (discretionary)
I am probably forgetting a few items, but they could be added in. the point being...this nation’s government is in debt in the neighborhood of 18 trillion, which begs the question…how the hell could we be borrowing money to spend money on lights in Ukraine? Why would our ‘representatives’ think they should be spending our money on things that we may very well not approve of. It is OUR money after all. Shouldn’t we have a more direct say (generally speaking) on what areas it is going?
Fathertime!
And you vote a straight Liberal, Progressive, Democrat ticket every election.
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And you vote a straight Liberal, Progressive, Democrat ticket every election.
No. What makes u say that?
Fathertime!
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Every politicians have their own array of lobbyists.
Don't believe for a minute that those street lights in Ukraine was done out of the kindness of our hearts and that we have so much money available we just don't know what to do with it. Fat corporate lobbyists are lined up for every individual brickhead running for office in Washington. So in some silly ways, it doesn't matter if you elected Bevis over Butthead, monies will filter its way through those lobbyists to suck up monies from all of us one way or another.
Hell, IRS just blew nearly 150 billion in improper EIT payments since 2003 and no one even noticed. You think a few street lights anywhere in this silly world would matter all that much in the overall scheme of things?
I hear you regarding lobbyists. I wonder what the process was to get those lights on Ukraine, and why that money was spent before other things like better border security. ..I'm certain the American citizens would have preferred the money being spent differently than streetlights in ukraine, if we have to prioritize, which I feel we do.
I also read the story on EIC overpayments
...this story bothers me a little less than it probably should. I might be one of the few fiscally conservative people who likes EIC. Since corporations have shipped many of the decent paying jobs overseas, we should give a financial boost to low wage workers, with kids...but I'd also like to see those that blatantly scammed the system put in prison. I guess that won't happen.
Fathertime!
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Why vote liberal Democrat when George Soros endorses Ron Paul?
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regarding lobbyists.
Long time ago in school I remember a debate about lobbyists and whether they should or shouldn't exist. One person had a very good point. If politicians didn't have a good income or adequate finances for elections, corruption will eventually take over. There was a time in America's history where the mafia was very strong and the direction of this nation could've been different. Fortunately we has strong people in government and in the FBI to keep the mafia from growing.
If politicians didn't make good income or have adequate finances for elections because there were no lobbying, bribing could become a way of life in American politics. Mafia and or their puppets could be winning a majority elections.
Once corruption becomes a way of life in politics, it's hard to change course. Ukraine is going to need outside help to change course. They won't be able to do it on their own.
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I stopped by your propaganda forum the other day and boy, it definitely looks like a subsidiary of Russia Today.
There are other views in Europe than the American one. Hard to grasp on your side of the pond I know, but really, there are.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJRF8xGzvj4
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There are other views in Europe than the American one. Hard to grasp on your side of the pond I know, but really, there are.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJRF8xGzvj4
I understand and accept your point. Yet you fail when trying to illustrate your point with music. Also, as an older man, I say your music is old (not to mention "Its David Bowie" ....eeeeek).
Instead, how about the Ozzie hit cover song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3S4dBk4E1g
At least it makes one move rather than fall asleep.
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An old Army buddy used to say whenever he was in a foreign land and his nationality came up, he would say they want f!$k me or fight me. Either way, they want me.
God Bless America.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TRUjr8EVgBg
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Instead, how about the Ozzie hit cover song:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3S4dBk4E1g
Why not the original version ;)?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utHtDqwf5cQ&hd=1
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Why not the original version ;)?
:clapping: :clapping: :clapping:
1950s?
Now that I have read the lyrics, the song is no more applicable to Manny's point than David Bowie. My apology Manny.
So, don't judge a song by the cover....groan....bad pun (or title either).
Petrof piano is new to me. I read that Petrof is Czech and a high quality piano. Steinway was started in America by a German immigrant.
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Until the majority of the Russian population really "sees" the extent to which Putin has been lying to them, they will still cling to his words. Unfortunately, since all radio and TV is state owned, they never will.
All of the players in this (EU, US and Russia) have been very careful not to win this because to win means to inherit Ukraines troubles. Everyone is lying. They want the influence to rule Ukraine but not the responsibility of rebuilding it.
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1950s?
Yes:
During the 1950s Carosone became more and more popular, his orchestra was in great demand both in Italy and abroad, and records sales were soaring high.
His song Torero - specially composed for a Spanish tour - remained for 14 weeks at number 1 on the US hit parade. Torero was translated into 12 languages and no fewer than thirty cover versions were recorded in the United States alone. On 5 January 1957 Carosone and his band started off a successful American tour with a concert in Cuba. This tour concluded with a triumphant performance at the prestigious Carnegie Hall in New York.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renato_Carosone
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There was a version of that very popular in Russia a couple of years ago, Sandro. I heard it on every radio station there This one I think:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR8logunPzQ
(I have no Youtube button in this room for some reason and SMF flash code doesn't work for me either)
(Again the httpS problem ;))
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There was a version of that very popular in Russia a couple of years ago, Sandro. I heard it on every radio station there
Curious that it'd become popular after some 60+ years after its original release :o.
But Russians seem to be partial to great Neapolitan songs like Luna rossa (Red Moon - no political implications in its lyrics, just a matter of refractive index and thin low clouds in the eastern horizon ;)):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vI4tRsjGFU&hd=1
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Putin is actually withdrawing troops?
Today, May 19, the President of Russia Vladimir Putin gave the command to turn the head of the Defense Ministry troops, who took part in exercises in Rostov, Belgorod and Bryansk region, in places of permanent deployment. According to the press service of the Kremlin, the spring force training phase is completed. "Putin gave the Minister of Defence to return troops participating in exercises at their home stations and combat training to continue on adjacent grounds", - reported in the Kremlin.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/politika/putin-virishiv-vidvesti-viyska-vid-kordonu-z-ukrayinoyu-350237.html
http://tsn.ua/politika/putin-virishiv-vidvesti-viyska-vid-kordonu-z-ukrayinoyu-350237.html
Could it possibly be true? Not yet confirmed by other cources-- so we will see.
I think it is possible as the failure of the wider invasion has been stymied and has not spread. The Ukrainian forces are gradually getting control and it is a trend that will accelerate .What is really needed is for the general populace to clearly understand the threat was from Russia-- and not from Kiev.
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There is no end to the Russian interference.
http://tsn.ua/politika/rosiya-pidnime-v-nebo-boyovu-aviaciyu-na-kordoni-z-ukrayinoyu-u-den-viboriv-350399.html
In the Air Force of Russia reported on the readiness to conduct military exercises with combat aircraft and helicopters near the Ukrainian border on the day of the presidential elections in Ukraine on 25 May. This was reported in the press service of the Defense Ministry.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/politika/rosiya-pidnime-v-nebo-boyovu-aviaciyu-na-kordoni-z-ukrayinoyu-u-den-viboriv-350399.html
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But ft says there is no invasion.
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Translated and quoting -for those that refuse to understand and continue to rationalise the Russian invasion.
"Now and civilized Europe (via Ukraine), learns the hard way that survived Chechnya, and now going through and the entire Caucasus.
recall this Europe without shame or conscience demanded that the Mujahideen in Chechnya and now requires the Mujahideen of the Caucasus Emirate "to stop terrorism." This Europe-ass like a fool and still repeated by inertia KGB repeats stories about "Islamic terrorism", indulging in every way bloody murder Caucasian Muslims.
And now bloody Russism delineated on the doorstep of Europe. While only slightly parted his animal mug.
Karlivka After the fight under Russian GRU officers from the terrorist gang cut heart captive Battalion "Donbass" (Video) and mutilated body of Nazi symbols. It's done in Chechnya Russian, only on a much larger scale and for nearly 20 years.
"We met with Alex on March 27 the children's festival, organized social movement" Donetsk - Ukraine is. " It took a little less than two months. May 19 we talked and he told me that in the battalion a lot of work. And now he was dead. Died as a hero, "- said a familiar fighter" Donbass. "
We brutally murdered Ukrainian volunteer survived by his wife and small child.
May 23, it was reported that near Donetsk Russian officers shot a man with a swastika on his chest for his membership in the "Rules sector. "
In fact, during the brutal torture Russian officers themselves cut his skin swastika, and then cut at the heart of the victim is still alive.
Recall that in the morning on May 23 near the village Karlivka Donetsk region ambushed soldiers were volunteers from the battalion "Donbass . "
According to the commander, more than half of his men were wounded. They asked for reinforcements, but it never came.
Approximately one hour after the start of the battle part of volunteers "Donbass" could break out.
spetsbatalona Command "Donbass" Semen Sementchenko reported that terrorists as part of Russian GRU officers, among whom were supposed Kadyrov, somehow found the route of the battalion, which is why they were ambushed, and some soldiers were taken prisoner.
Subsequently Russian terrorist gang GRU reported that all soldiers executed special battalion "Donbass", which was captured near the village Karlivka.
penalty About Ukrainian volunteers publicly boasted member of the terrorist gang of Russian GRU Lieutenant Colonel Igor a Bezler.https :/ / www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PMsIVjNXpI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PMsIVjNXpI
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Vostok Battalion, A Powerful New Player In Eastern Ukraine
By Claire Bigg
May 30, 2014
Rumors that battle-hardened Chechen fighters from Russia's notorious Vostok Battalion are active in eastern Ukraine have been swirling for weeks.
They unexpectedly materialized on May 29 when dozens of heavily armed men identifying themselves as members of the Vostok Battalion stormed the separatists' headquarters in central Donetsk, evicting the motley band of pro-Russian rebels that had occupied the building since March.
The brazen raid, conducted in broad daylight, has plunged the region into new uncertainty. The emergence of such a widely recognizable Russian military structure in eastern Ukraine has also raised questions about Moscow's role in the conflict.
http://www.rferl.org/content/vostok-battalion-a-powerful-new-player-in-eastern-ukraine/25404785.html
viyskovih.htmlhttp://www.rferl.org/content/vostok-battalion-a-powerful-new-player-in-eastern-ukraine/25404785.html
http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-donetsk-vostok-battalion/25404061.html
Anyone want to try and tell us that Russia has not invaded Ukraine? More murderous hired thugs sent to kill and disrupt Ukraine by Russia-- a state promoting terrorism.
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Russian invasion of Ukraine? Iam not sure what news you follow but your wrong. The Ukraine crisis is all western backed. Western powers namely the USA sent in forces and overthrew an elected Government namely ViKtor Yushchenko. In a attempt yet again by NATO to encircle Russia with missiles and military forces. yes Russia invaded Crimea but if you look in your history books Crimea has always been apart of Russia on and off through the years. When Russia invaded Crimea they were only talking back what was rightfully theres. Go here and see for yourself http://www.infowars.com/the-truth-about-the-ukraine-crisis/
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The Ukraine crisis is all western backed. Western powers namely the USA sent in forces and overthrew an elected Government namely ViKtor Yushchenko... When Russia invaded Crimea they were only talking back what was rightfully theres. Go here and see for yourself http://www.infowars.com/the-truth-about-the-ukraine-crisis/
Viktor Yuschenko has not been president of Ukraine for several years. But I don't expect an ignorant fellow such as yourself to know this. Really, read RT.com or Pravda (or pretty much any Russian media source) for your opinions. Those sources, even if they lie repeatedly, at least get the players right.
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Russian invasion of Ukraine? Iam not sure what news you follow but your (you're) wrong. The Ukraine crisis is all [western] (caps.) backed. Western powers, namely the USA, sent in forces and overthrew an elected [Government] (non caps) namely ViKtor Yushchenko Yanukovych. In an attempt yet again by NATO to encircle Russia with missiles and military forces. yes Russia invaded Crimea but if you look in your history books Crimea has always been apart (See below) of Russia on and off through the years. When Russia invaded Crimea they were only talking back what was rightfully theres theirs. Go here and see for yourself: http://www.infowars.com/the-truth-about-the-ukraine-crisis/
Apart - Merriam-Webster Online
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/apart
Merriam‑Webster
separated by an amount of space. : separated by an amount of time. : not together. Full Definition of APART. 1. a : at a little distance <tried to keep apart from the ...
I read this post. It was painful. Surely thar is no one as illiterit as this here righter!
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:rules Hey thanks Jone for pointing out the grammar errors. But in 2 words WHO CARES? There are only 2 things painful I see on this post and whole topic. 1. A person that spends there time correcting grammar errors. 2. The writer of this whole topic who loves to bash Russia and not have the facts right.
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Anyone want to try and tell us that Russia has not invaded Ukraine? More murderous hired thugs sent to kill and disrupt Ukraine by Russia-- a state promoting terrorism.
Since you asked, I don’t think this is an invasion of Ukraine (Not including Crimea, which I believe was an invasion). I believe that Russian citizens have some involvement in escalating the discord and killing, but that does not constitute an invasion at this point. When/if there are Russian troops dominating the cities, and all the systems are paying/answering to Russia then it will reach the point of where I’d agree an invasion is occurring. I don’t think it will reach that point, because I don't believe Russia is interested enough in owning this real estate...given the problems that would likely ensue.
Fathertime!
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Since you asked, I don’t think this is an invasion of Ukraine (Not including Crimea, which I believe was an invasion). I believe that Russian citizens have some involvement in escalating the discord and killing, but that does not constitute an invasion at this point. When/if there are Russian troops dominating the cities, and all the systems are paying/answering to Russia then it will reach the point of where I’d agree an invasion is occurring. I don’t think it will reach that point, because I don't believe Russia is interested enough in owning this real estate...given the problems that would likely ensue.
Fathertime!
You gotta be kidding me. Your definition of an invasion is consistent with an occupation, not an invasion. Most people, I think recognize the difference.
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You gotta be kidding me. Your definition of an invasion is consistent with an occupation, not an invasion. Most people, I think recognize the difference.
You are correct, what I mentioned was more than what would constitute ‘an invasion’. Nevertheless, I still don’t think that Russia has invaded Ukraine, based on perhaps at most a few thousand Russian citizens joining the ranks of Ukrainian separatists perhaps much less. If at all unified, surely a nation as large as Ukraine could expel such a small number of troublemakers. My impression remains that a significant % of Ukrainian citizens (in the region) are involved or complicit and that is helping to create a situation where this rebellion can’t be put down very easily. If Russia chooses to invade it will be with an overwhelming force, and they will probably annex the region, but that isn't likely to happen. I don’t believe what is currently going on, is going to lead to an annexation….and I hope that it doesn't turn into Syria…I don’t think it will because I contend that the leaders getting together will make a deal (hopefully soon) and after this the violence will subside for the most part.
Of course I get that part of what I've written is only an opinion or speculative, and I get that not everybody agrees with those opinions.
Fathertime!
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:rules Hey thanks Jone for pointing out the grammar errors. But in 2 words WHO CARES? There are only 2 things painful I see on this post and whole topic. 1. A person that spends there time correcting grammar errors. 2. The writer of this whole topic who loves to bash Russia and not have the facts right.
You really could not understand that the entire purpose of your post was incorrect? Because you could not literately say that Krim had been 'A PART' of Russia? That you didn't know the name of the President of Ukraine, even though you made your post about him?
I am not a grammar coach. Simply someone who understands sensibilities. There is no one who will believe your point of view, right or wrong, if you have such trouble elucidating your thoughts. I would guess that most of the people who went to that website you included did so out of amusement. They were wondering what type of website would entertain a guy with such a low IQ. Now, this is not an insult, per se. Instead, it is simply reality. It does not take much to learn the rules of writing.
If you want to be read with the respect that I am sure that you deserve, learn how to write in a way that will make people want to read you.
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Apart - Merriam-Webster Online
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/apart
Merriam‑Webster
separated by an amount of space. : separated by an amount of time. : not together. Full Definition of APART. 1. a : at a little distance <tried to keep apart from the ...
I read this post. It was painful. Surely thar is no one as illiterit as this here righter!
Dang! For someone whose native language is English yet clueless to the definition of the words feminist/feminism ( I don't need to post the link to that thread so Rockford can read it for himself now do I?), you should be the last person trying to saddle up on that high horse, jone. To make matters even more ridiculous, you even took the silly liberty to speak for the entire military female personnel in the belief you knew what you were talking about. LOL...
You don't agree with his view about this crisis, debate it and just understand you don't belong up that language saddle.
Sheesh.
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......I am not a grammar coach. Simply someone who understands sensibilities. There is no one who will believe your point of view, right or wrong, if you have such trouble elucidating your thoughts. I would guess that most of the people who went to that website you included did so out of amusement. They were wondering what type of website would entertain a guy with such a low IQ. Now, this is not an insult, per se. Instead, it is simply reality. It does not take much to learn the rules of writing.
Aww lordie! How easy they forget!
:rolleyes:
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There is no question who's Nazi for East Ukrainians. Here is the results of yesterday air strike by Ukraine Air Force in Lugansk:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv2ly-GNWyk
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Iam not sure what news you follow but your wrong. The Ukraine crisis is all western backed. Western powers namely the USA sent in forces and overthrew an elected Government namely ViKtor Yushchenko. In a attempt yet again by NATO to encircle Russia with missiles and military forces. yes Russia invaded Crimea but if you look in your history books Crimea has always been apart of Russia on and off through the years. When Russia invaded Crimea they were only talking back what was rightfully theres. Go here and see for yourself http://www.infowars.com/the-truth-about-the-ukraine-crisis/
Rockford, a lot of people been reading the wrong news. Crimea was Ukraine's. Below is a little history that has been erased by the Soviets but not in its entirety. You can read more about this in the thread "Sick of it". Regardless of who owns what and when in the past, we are dealing with today's borders and laws. Most of the World, including your country, doesn't recognized Crimea belonging to Russia.
The Soviet Union, rewriting history, destroyed those maps and made it illegal for anyone to possess them. Here's a website below explaining things and can be translated with Google translator or read what I translated below.
http://espavo.ning.com/profiles/blog/show?id=3776235%3ABlogPost%3A1170437&commentId=3776235%3AComment%3A1170298&xg_source=activity
Lviv museum was transferred to the sensational original document - issued in Austria map in 1918, which first struck borders of Ukraine. On the map of Austria published in 1918 for the first time dealt borders of Ukraine. Lviv Historical Museum Foundation supplemented the original map of Ukraine in 1918. Museum transferred its private person. Unique card was accidentally purchased them back in Soviet times. Scientists say this discovery in Ukrainian cartography. Before that time was known only to map the Ukrainian lands Ivan Velichko 1896.
On the map of 1918, published in Austria, first struck the state border of Ukraine. On the map it is written - "Map of Ukraine 1918". It marked the boundaries of the UPR as of October 1918. Then the Ukrainian state owned territory of Transnistria, part of Belarus - Beresteyschina, Gomel region (stretched deep into the territory of Ukraine to Belarus 80-150 kilometers), and eastern Sloboda (modern Kursk and Voronezh regions - wedge extended to 250 kilometers) and the Crimea. Without a doubt, in the Ukraine then entered the Crimea.
Maps of Ukraine in 1918 purposefully destroyed during the Soviet era and its storage could get up to 10 years in prison. From Lviv Mikhail Gavrilov card accidentally acquired in the bazaar in Ivano-Frankivsk in the mid-80s of the last century. Scientists have no doubt about the authenticity of the card in 1918. During transmission, the original in the Museum of History noted that no one whom has no territorial claims. But the map is interesting for the Ukrainians who need to know their history and what the land once belonged to Ukraine, there still live Ukrainians have to worry about them.
There is no question who's Nazi for East Ukrainians. Here is the results of yesterday air strike by Ukraine Air Force in Lugansk:
If Russia stops sending in the irregular army, there would be less bombings. What's your solution if you were president of Ukraine and your next door neighbor is annexing your country and sending in armed troops to shit on your country? Have a pleasant talk with him?
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There is no question who's Nazi for East Ukrainians. Here is the results of yesterday air strike by Ukraine Air Force in Lugansk:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv2ly-GNWyk
Well Belvis that may well be the Ukrainian Air Force but you can blame every deaths in Ukraine to the US. These are to be expected. By design, regime changes take their tolls. I'm sure Nuland is around baking more cookie$ for the 'troops'.
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More information on who and how is in eastern Ukraine
Quoting
"Hundreds of armed terrorists from Chechnya to freely cross the Ukrainian border and killing security forces and civilians, border guards just paid 15 thousand euros . At present borders of Ukraine does not actually exist - is just an imaginary line, drawn on the map. Between checkpoints hundreds of miles without fences, said the story of "Money." However, the main border guard Mykola Lytvyn, who has repeatedly tried to dismiss for failure to act, says the situation is under control. He said the cross border specially trained mercenaries Caucasians no prohibited.
Every day hundreds of terrorists crossing the border with weapons in their hands. According to unofficial data, in Ukraine from Russia has fallen 4.5 thousand fighters. Litvin justified and complains that the authorities are actually besieged militants: not enough no people, no weapons, no desire to fight terrorists. Most DPS officials say they are ready to repel any attack on the territory of Ukraine. However, their unscrupulous colleagues entire truck passed heavily armed extremists across the Ukrainian border only 15 thousand euros, according to activists Donetsk. Read more: In the Donbas Chechen fighters obmovylysya on camera, who came "to protect the interests of the Russian Federation" Expect bumps in can be from any party. Experts believe that President Vladimir Putin is considering attack on Ukraine and Belarus. Between Russia and Belarus is an agreement under which Russia takes the Belarusian land for military bases, and thus dozens of Russian fighters can cross the Ukrainian border every second.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/politika/prikordonniki-propuskayut-v-ukrayinu-sotni-ozbroyenih-kadirivciv-za-15-tisyach-yevro-352790.html
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/politika/prikordonniki-propuskayut-v-ukrayinu-sotni-ozbroyenih-kadirivciv-za-15-tisyach-yevro-352790.html
http://tsn.ua/politika/prikordonniki-propuskayut-v-ukrayinu-sotni-ozbroyenih-kadirivciv-za-15-tisyach-yevro-352790.html
And in the hands of militants holding Kalashnikovs hundredth of a series that never was armed Ukrainian army.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/politika/na-donbasi-chechenski-boyoviki-obmovilisya-na-kameru-scho-priyihali-zahischati-interesi-rf-351849.html
Head of the Chechen Republic has estimated the number of its citizens in Eastern Ukraine.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/politika/nakaz-vid-putina-chechenci-iz-gotovnistyu-vikonayut-na-shodi-ukrayini-kadirov-352503.html
Ramzan Kadyrov Chechen admitted participation in hostilities in Ukraine - said the plot TSN.19 30 . In an interview with a Russian TV channels Chechen President said that the volunteer is 14. One killed, four wounded. According to Kadyrov, when a corresponding order-in-Chief Vladimir Putin Chechens willing to execute it in Eastern Ukraine.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/politika/nakaz-vid-putina-chechenci-iz-gotovnistyu-vikonayut-na-shodi-ukrayini-kadirov-352503.html
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There is no question who's Nazi for East Ukrainians. Here is the results of yesterday air strike by Ukraine Air Force in Lugansk:
It doesn't look like the explosion was caused by the air strike but by someone on the ground. More than likely someone trying to shoot down the plane.
(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BpIhKH4CcAAVMsC.jpg:large)
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Belvis,
Yep,no doubt the Eastern Ukrainians will know who the Nazi's are.
Unfortunately for you,it probably won't be the Ukraine Government or Ukraine Air Force. :)
I'd say your propaganda attempt has back-fired.
Of course,if the pro-Russian seperatists had allowed the people of Luhansk and Donetsk to vote in the election for a new President of Ukraine,we would know better how those people felt.....I wonder why they weren't allowed to vote ? :rolleyes:
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If Russia stops sending in the irregular army, there would be less bombings. What's your solution if you were president of Ukraine and your next door neighbor is annexing your country and sending in armed troops to shit on your country? Have a pleasant talk with him?
My feelings don't matter. Feelings of East Ukranians do. As far as I can see the bloody separation in minds has been done, so what are you going to do as the president of Ukraine? Kill them all is not a feasible option.
It doesn't look like the explosion was caused by the air strike but by someone on the ground. More than likely someone trying to shoot down the plane.
(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BpIhKH4CcAAVMsC.jpg:large)
Tell this to people of Lugansk, may be they believe your version. Officials collected there the fragments of S-8KO rockets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-8_rocket), about 20 were fired, one hit the building, others hit the nearby park with pedestrians, not all of them had exploded.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLuInNXfXFk
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Dang! For someone whose native language is English yet clueless to the definition of the words feminist/feminism ( I don't need to post the link to that thread so Rockford can read it for himself now do I?), you should be the last person trying to saddle up on that high horse, jone. To make matters even more ridiculous, you even took the silly liberty to speak for the entire military female personnel in the belief you knew what you were talking about. LOL...
You don't agree with his view about this crisis, debate it and just understand you don't belong up that language saddle.
Sheesh.
Sleeping with the bottle again, Matt? At 12:30 at night, we can all picture you madly typing away on your computer. Your posts late at night become more and more incoherent.
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Tell this to people of Lugansk, may be they believe your version.
Is this rhetoric necessary or are you having a defensive day today, Belvis? While I have seen an unexploded rocket was seen, in the park, I haven't seen anything stating what type of rocket it was.
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Russian terrorist initiated explosions in Luhansk:
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.nl/2014/06/staged-attack-with-rpg-from-tree-in.html
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Russian terrorist initiated explosions in Luhansk:
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.nl/2014/06/staged-attack-with-rpg-from-tree-in.html (http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.nl/2014/06/staged-attack-with-rpg-from-tree-in.html)
While it appears to me it wasn't the fighter jet, your link reeks of propaganda and hard to digest because of it.
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Sleeping with the bottle again, Matt? At 12:30 at night, we can all picture you madly typing away on your computer. Your posts late at night become more and more incoherent.
Considering I don't really drink, rather silly for you to even remotely suggest such. Any other English word/s I can help you with, jone? Or maybe I should ease off with you before you go crying to the overlords again, yes?
Bought yourself a date lately?
LOL.
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While it appears to me it wasn't the fighter jet, your link reeks of propaganda and hard to digest because of it.
They all are. They eat them up. They're designed to get these dedushkas adrenaline pumping. It's pretty funny to see how these 60-70 year olds get all bent out of shape, too.
If they're so pissed, why don't they pick up arms and go to these war zones and show the folks they call bastards how they really feel, no?
The dramatics are hysterical.....
an aside: If the jet didn't fire at the park, did the *investigator* at least took the time to show what it did fired at? One would presume the jet actually fired at something based on those photos...
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While it appears to me it wasn't the fighter jet, your link reeks of propaganda and hard to digest because of it.
Actually, LFU, I have spent two pleasant summers in Luhansk, with quite some time with my fiancee in that very park, where children play amongst the trees. So, believe me, you Putin sycophant, it's not propaganda but pure visceral hatred that I now have for Putin and his state-sponsored terrorists.
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They all are. They eat them up. They're designed to get these dedushkas adrenaline pumping. It's pretty funny to see how these 60-70 year olds get all bent out of shape, too.
If they're so pissed, why don't they pick up arms and go to these war zones and show the folks they call bastards how they really feel, no?
The dramatics are hysterical.....
Dramatics, you a$$? It's not your woman being a pedestrian on the sidewalks of Luhansk, just trying to get to her next English tutoring appointment without getting shot.
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Actually, LFU, I have spent two pleasant summers in Luhansk, with quite some time with my fiancee in that very park, where children play amongst the trees. So, believe me, you Putin sycophant, it's not propaganda but pure visceral hatred that I now have for Putin and his state-sponsored terrorists.
Yeah, I am sure it hits home for you after spending time in the park. Same for me when the Odessa fire happened.
I am still waiting for more sources to come out. It's hard to even figure out what happened when so much disinformation is being thrown out there. Looking at the picture I posted (which came from a video feed that I also watched), it looked like it was fired from the ground.
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...
Actually, LFU, I have spent two pleasant summers in Luhansk, with quite some time with my fiancee in that very park, where children play amongst the trees. So, believe me, you Putin US Center for Democracy sycophant, it's not propaganda but pure visceral hatred that I now have for Putin Democrats and his state-sponsored terrorists.
There. Fix that for you....
Never let a good crisis go to waste!
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an aside: If the jet didn't fire at the park, did the *investigator* at least took the time to show what it did fired at? One would presume the jet actually fired at something based on those photos...
I think it is still too recent. Judging from the video and pictures, it looked to originate from the park (possible someone trying to shoot the jet down?). I couldn't make out anything from above hitting the ground. I did read there was dud missile in the park so hopefully more info will come out. No mention of what type of missile so I don't know if what Belvis said is true or not as of right now. Not that Belvis doesn't have a trustworthy face. :P
I think it is too quick to eat up the propaganda until more time passes and hopefully more info.
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Dramatics, you a$$? It's not your woman being a pedestrian on the sidewalks of Luhansk, just trying to get to her next English tutoring appointment without getting shot.
Oh the drama! Give the man an Oscar!!!
*Your* woman wasn't anywhere close to where the blast took place so quit huffing and puffing. It ain't WW II anymore pops. Germany surrendered a long time ago, LOL. Time to go home pops. The *war* is over.
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I think it is still too recent. Judging from the video and pictures, it looked to originate from the park (possible someone trying to shoot the jet down?). I couldn't make out anything from above hitting the ground. I did read there was dud missile in the park so hopefully more info will come out.
I think it is too quick to eat up the propaganda until more time passes and hopefully more info.
Exactly. The *spark*from the tree look more like light refraction thant a *missile*. Like the sun reflecting off the mirror. RPG have entrails when fired.
Anyway, like you said, too early to tell either way BUT what did the jet actually fired at then? Is there info on that?
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Exactly. The *spark*from the tree look more like light refraction thant a *missile*. Like the sun reflecting off the mirror. RPG have entrails when fired.
Anyway, like you said, too early to tell either way BUT what did the jet actually fired at then? Is there info on that?
No idea where they fired at, to be honest. All I read was the military took out two mortar detachments but didn't say where they were.
My gut reaction is this doesn't make sense. To me, it seemed the military was being cautious when it came to civilians which was why they were having a hard time fighting the separatist. Maybe something went wrong but I find it hard to believe they would fire into a public park.
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Oh the drama! Give the man an Oscar!!!
*Your* woman wasn't anywhere close to where the blast took place so quit huffing and puffing. It ain't WW II anymore pops. Germany surrendered a long time ago, LOL. Time to go home pops. The *war* is over.
haha Hey man, give the guy a break, anything that gets his old blood flowing, at his age, has got to be a good thing.
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No idea where they fired at, to be honest. All I read was the military took out two mortar detachments but didn't say where they were.
My gut reaction is this doesn't make sense. To me, it seemed the military was being cautious when it came to civilians which was why they were having a hard time fighting the separatist. Maybe something went wrong but I find it hard to believe they would fire into a public park.
FWIW and without jumping into any conclusion, here's a bit of news about these air strikes..
"...But Ukrainian authorities denied carrying out an air strike on the buildings, saying the blast was likely caused by a misdirected surface-to-air rocket fired by the insurgent side.
However, a report released on June 3 (http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/119479) by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) special monitoring mission (SMM) to Ukraine said that the explosion was likely caused by air strikes.
"On 2 June, shortly after 15:00 [hours], rockets hit the occupied regional administration building. Based on the SMM’s limited observation these strikes were the result of non-guided rockets shot from an aircraft. The number of casualties is unknown," reads the OSCE report......"
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/heavy-fighting-in-eastern-ukraine-as-government-restarts-active-phase-of-anti-terror-operation-350453.html (http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/heavy-fighting-in-eastern-ukraine-as-government-restarts-active-phase-of-anti-terror-operation-350453.html)
The air strikes/confrontations have apparently claimed 181 lives and injured 239 thus far....if this report holds true, that the blast was actually caused by air strikes, doesn't that just make cc3's dramatics even more hysterical?
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haha Hey man, give the guy a break, anything that gets his old blood flowing, at his age, has got to be a good thing.
I can't, for the life of me, visualize someone supposedly so angry and concerned but the instant reaction is to get online, login on RWD message board to post, LOL. It's like as though everyone should be impressed.
Heck, if you're that worried, bite the bullet and spend whatever pension you have left and make yourself useful and remove your loved ones out of a hostile zone and unto a safe region, instead of posting on message boards (as in *more than one*). At least until the regime change completes its course.
I'm sure somewhere out in virtual world, a *ThaiWomenDiscussion (TWD)* message board also contain a multitude of pensioned babyboomers huffing and puffing about their crisis, LOL.
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FWIW and without jumping into any conclusion, here's a bit of news about these air strikes..
"...But Ukrainian authorities denied carrying out an air strike on the buildings, saying the blast was likely caused by a misdirected surface-to-air rocket fired by the insurgent side.
However, a report released on June 3 (http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/119479) by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) special monitoring mission (SMM) to Ukraine said that the explosion was likely caused by air strikes.
"On 2 June, shortly after 15:00 [hours], rockets hit the occupied regional administration building. Based on the SMM’s limited observation these strikes were the result of non-guided rockets shot from an aircraft. The number of casualties is unknown," reads the OSCE report......"
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/heavy-fighting-in-eastern-ukraine-as-government-restarts-active-phase-of-anti-terror-operation-350453.html (http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/heavy-fighting-in-eastern-ukraine-as-government-restarts-active-phase-of-anti-terror-operation-350453.html)
The air strikes/confrontations have apparently claimed 181 lives and injured 239 thus far....if this report holds true, that the blast was actually caused by air strikes, doesn't that just make cc3's dramatics even more hysterical?
Damn, Kiev has some explaining to do. Funny how everyone was up in arms ready to lynch Yanukovych over the sniper attacks (which he was innocent) and now you got these types of incidents happening.
I think cc3 was just confused and forgot his fiancee is in Kiev.
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I can't, for the life of me, visualize someone supposedly so angry and concerned but the instant reaction is to get online, login on RWD message board to post, LOL. It's like as though everyone should be impressed.
Heck, if you're that worried, bite the bullet and spend whatever pension you have left and make yourself useful and remove your loved ones out of a hostile zone and unto a safe region, instead of posting on message boards (as in *more than one*). At least until the regime change completes its course.
A lot of these guys can only speak to their fiances/wives through google translation. Where else are they going to go?
I'm sure somewhere out in virtual world, a *ThaiWomenDiscussion (TWD)* message board also contain a multitude of pensioned babyboomers huffing and puffing about their crisis, LOL.
The US didn't sanction that coup so they pulled the million + in funding to the Thai military. You can't make this stuff up! haha
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....The US didn't sanction that coup so they pulled the million + in funding to the Thai military. You can't make this stuff up! haha
Oh I dunno 'bout that, Live...
I think the New American order is to finance all revolution in all of the MOB regions for regime changes. I think they're trying to establish pastures for most of our pensioners so the mainland didn't have to deal with their annoying rants...
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I'm sure somewhere out in virtual world, a *ThaiWomenDiscussion (TWD)* message board also contain a multitude of pensioned babyboomers huffing and puffing about their crisis, LOL.
Probably a fair few middle-aged westerners huffing and puffing about that crisis on "ThaiLadyboysDiscussion (TLD)" as well.
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Probably a fair few middle-aged westerners huffing and puffing about that crisis on "ThaiLadyboysDiscussion (TLD)" as well.
Doubt it. They likely got it made in the shade somewhere in paradise...
I do however believe some loser is still in places like Kharkov for instance, giving away money and cell phones in exchange for attention from women....and hoping, and hoping, and hoping.....these women will look past their obvious MOBer presence.
Got laid yet?
:(
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Got laid yet?
:(
What's with the interest in other people's bedroom activities? Not getting any at home?
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What's with the interest in other people's bedroom activities? Not getting any at home?
:ROFL:
Bedroom activities? You couldn't even get any of these women to look at you after the free meals! LOL.
....Last Friday I went back to Kharkov for a WOVO trip to see a woman that I previously meet during my last trip in September. After being taken to an apartment arranged by her, woman then left saying she had to go to work for a few hours on Saturday morning and will be back to see me after work. Around noon on Saturday I got a text from her saying that she got held up at work and will come later. The woman then dropped off the radar completely for the next 24 hours, not answering on Skype nor texting. By mid Sunday morning I was really starting to worry after being left there alone for more than a day,...
But I really liked this part the best....LOL!
...1) There was a period of about 3 weeks where she was totally uncontactable via phone calls 24/7. When I finally managed to get through to her via phone later on, her explanation was her phone was broken and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't work. Probably during that time she was with another guy fleecing him so too busy to answer my calls. Stupidly I said I will buy her a new phone when I return this trip. She suggested that I buy a phone in Australia and bring it over. I know because Australian phones won't work in FSU even after changing the sim card, I said I will buy her the phone when I am back in Ukraine....
What a classic MOBer!
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Whether one is pro-Russian or pro-Ukrainian should not matter when viewing such tragic carnage. Both sides should recognize that armed conflict invariably kills civilians. There will be more and more civilian deaths until truce is reached.
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It doesn't look like the explosion was caused by the air strike but by someone on the ground. More than likely someone trying to shoot down the plane.
I don't think this is the result of anything fired from the ground. The video containing these still photos shows a sequence of plumes suggesting 4 separate explosions. The first at the street, the next at the building, and another two moving right into the park away from the building.
I do not know what it is. Too impactful to be RPGs, nor is it a cluster bomb (there would be many bomblets).
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RPG have entrails when fired.
No, entrails are what we saw in Belvis's gruesome video of slaughtered civilians.
Perhaps you meant condensation trails otherwise known as contrails. However, RPGs leave a trail of smoke from the rocket motor burning.
You are correct, there were no such trails to suggest a RPG.
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This is a much closer view of the blasts.
Look at the right side of the video roughly where the the alleged the surface-air rockets was supposed to be fired from on the other sites. The *spark* that LFU posted claiming this was the separatists actions.
If you notice the blast pattern, it resembles more what Belvis described it to be. It was a multiple bomblets blasts that went from the right to the left of the screen.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-06-03/osce-confirms-ukraine-plane-fired-rockets-hit-lugansk-building (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-06-03/osce-confirms-ukraine-plane-fired-rockets-hit-lugansk-building)
This whole stupidity goes in line with Kiev sniper attack denial.
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This is a much closer view of the blasts.
Look at the right side of the video roughly where the the alleged the surface-air rockets was supposed to be fired from on the other sites. The *spark* that LFU posted claiming this was the separatists actions.
If you notice the blast pattern, it resembles more what Belvis described it to be. It was a multiple bomblets blasts that went from the right to the left of the screen.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-06-03/osce-confirms-ukraine-plane-fired-rockets-hit-lugansk-building (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-06-03/osce-confirms-ukraine-plane-fired-rockets-hit-lugansk-building)
This whole stupidity goes in line with Kiev sniper attack denial.
Yep, that definitely looks like the explosions started back within the park and worked it's way across the road. Just to be clear, my claim was more of an unsubstantiated guess. ;)
It doesn't matter, it's still Putin's fault. hah
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you know one thing that struck me as odd in belvises video link ?
what kind of person makes a video of that womans agony [lady in red blouse ] as she raises her head & then lays back down again without stopping and offering some help to her ?
of course she is dying , but it is so cold and inhumane to do that imo
was the video oppurtunistic or a set up with prior knowledge of the attack to maximise the event ?
SX
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...It doesn't matter, it's still Putin's fault. hah
LOL. Yup, he can fire RPGs in rapid succession. Better than Rambo hands down. :D
...was the video oppurtunistic or a set up with prior knowledge of the attack to maximise the event ?...
:rolleyes: They just keep flowing down, doesn't it?
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Dramatics, you a$$? It's not your woman being a pedestrian on the sidewalks of Luhansk, just trying to get to her next English tutoring appointment without getting shot.
CC --there are many on forum who do understand and respect your situation-- the forum fools here seem to think it amusing to see the anguish you( and others) are feeling.Really--those fools are intent on showing how ridiculous and ignorant they are generally--let alone devoid of human decency .If you note--their persistent theme is to insult to draw response-- and divert every thread to being about them(yawn).Ignore them.
Todays news from Lugansk is not good at all--fierce battle ongoing now.
Up thread I posted links of how the terrorist pipeline is being fed-- it will not be as quick or simple to dislodge these terrorists who are using the civilian population as a shield in the eastern cities.
My view is that a mass evacuation of civilians will be the only way to dislodge these invaders-- as the battle will increase in intensity.
Important to leave asap in my strongest urging.Many further west are offering to billet people from eastern cities-- the social networks are active in promoting offers.
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As far as I can see the bloody separation in minds has been done, so what are you going to do as the president of Ukraine? Kill them all is not a feasible option.
I'd do what the current Ukrainian president is doing. Kill the foreigners and keep the country safe. East Ukrainians aren't rioting and picking up arms to start a civil war as Putin hoped for. That is why Putin is sending in irregular army personnel instead.
This is a much closer view of the blasts.
Look at the right side of the video roughly where the the alleged the surface-air rockets was supposed to be fired from on the other sites. The *spark* that LFU posted claiming this was the separatists actions.
If you notice the blast pattern, it resembles more what Belvis described it to be. It was a multiple bomblets blasts that went from the right to the left of the screen.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-06-03/osce-confirms-ukraine-plane-fired-rockets-hit-lugansk-building (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-06-03/osce-confirms-ukraine-plane-fired-rockets-hit-lugansk-building)
This whole stupidity goes in line with Kiev sniper attack denial.
Your video with LivefromUkraines photos clearly show the rockets were fired at ground level, traveled through the trees and exploded in the distance. One landed in the road short of it's target probably because it hit some limbs. Just look at the right of your video where multiple missiles took off and the trajectory of the rockets. If missiles were shot from a plane, they would enter the ground on a diagonal trajectory and explode on impact. They would not travel a few feet above the ground and explode half a block or more down the road as rpgs could.
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I sure hope JayH doesn't start a petition and have some of us kicked out of the USA. How will I ever sleep at night knowing my fate is just a click away?
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Whether one is pro-Russian or pro-Ukrainian should not matter when viewing such tragic carnage. Both sides should recognize that armed conflict invariably kills civilians.
Both sides do recognize there will be civilian deaths. One side knows civilian deaths will be to their advantage. That is why they conduct their business among civilians instead of facing their enemy out in the open. If the Ukrainian army continues to succeed, you will see those militants retreat out of government buildings into churches, hospitals, and schools. They will continue to use the civilian population as a human shield.
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Oh the drama! Give the man an Oscar!!!
*Your* woman wasn't anywhere close to where the blast took place so quit huffing and puffing. It ain't WW II anymore pops. Germany surrendered a long time ago, LOL. Time to go home pops. The *war* is over.
How the hell would you know? You take an awful lot upon yourself when you make assumptions about everything under the sun. I'm getting really sick of you belittling just about everybody on this forum, simply because you consider yourself so bloody superior to "the average MOBer." As has been posted in the past by various people, you don't have a dog in this hunt (nor do I, which is why I'm not commenting on this particular item). The lady in question is living in what is fast becoming a war zone, so her fiance is right to be concerned.
Just as an aside, cc3 is only ten years older than you, and the age difference between him and his fiancee is pretty the much the same as between you and your wife, so where do you get off making all these stupid cracks about World War II and "pops?"
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I'm getting really sick of you belittling just about everybody on this forum,
Hard to get along with GQ on the forum? Just think how hard it would be to deal with him in real life. Just be glad you're not the one that has to live with him.
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Just think how hard it would be to deal with him in real life.
Probably no one in real life is willing to, hence the dude resorts to posting here to get at least some kind of interaction.
Have you noticed how ridiculously easy it is to bait him into posting an angry reply?
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How the hell would you know? You take an awful lot upon yourself when you make assumptions about everything under the sun. I'm getting really sick of you belittling just about everybody on this forum, simply because you consider yourself so bloody superior to "the average MOBer." As has been posted in the past by various people, you don't have a dog in this hunt (nor do I, which is why I'm not commenting on this particular item). The lady in question is living in what is fast becoming a war zone, so her fiance is right to be concerned....
From your vantage point, I can understand why you feel so belittled. Yah just gonna have to deal with this, yes? :P
First off, cc3 was supposed to be in the military. LOL. Pretty silly to be displaying some zany knee jerk reactions during a crisis, no? If this jerk was in the military, then that helps explain why we've been in such a mess lately.
He damned the entire nation fed only by a silly website BEFORE embarking on an objective assessment of the murderous rampage against its innocent citizens by this illegitimate government with it's newly-elected *president*, and then *deny* doing it. What a show of progress, don't you think?
Secondly, and obviously you missed this bit Kiwi, if anyone is so concerned for the welfare of their loved ones, quit bitching that the world isn't shaped in the manner you'd like for it to be and get them the hell out of harm's way instead of ranting on message boards (plural) about how unfair reality can be sometimes. That's pretty elementary, don't you think?
So get over it, and yourself...
....Just as an aside, cc3 is only ten years older than you, and the age difference between him and his fiancee is pretty the much the same as between you and your wife, so where do you get off making all these stupid cracks about World War II and "pops?"...
You kidding me? The dude's an old fart. He already posted his pic. So go BS Sleepycat. He's probably alone in his Kharkov apartment again. What's up with you down-under dudes spending wads of monies and years trying to get laid under the cover of wife-hunting?
Hard to get along with GQ on the forum? Just think how hard it would be to deal with him in real life. Just be glad you're not the one that has to live with him.
Spoken by a guy who willingly solicit assistance from people he doesn't know in the internet as character witness and lie to someone he professes to *love*... :devil:
Man...LFU is damned right...So much drama with you boys...I can't even believe you guys are actually looking for anyone to share your silly lives with, LOL.
MOBers...
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Probably no one in real life is willing to, hence the dude resorts to posting here to get at least some kind of interaction.
Have you noticed how ridiculously easy it is to bait him into posting an angry reply?
You shouldn't be talking about AnotherKiwi like that...LOL.
How's the dating free meals so far? Did you bring enough cell phones and money? :P What's the exchange rate on these for you these days? One hour conversation through an interpreter?
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Good night, MOBers. You guys are so easy to spot.
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Good night, MOBers. You guys are so easy to spot.
From the rest of us MOBers, also goodnight & sweet dreams. :D
Maybe address your own issues first rather than stress over everyone else's problems?
p.s. Please do try to be a GOOD SPORT and not get upset. ;)
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Maybe this could be an explanation of where missile came from? Russia has already proven that it can not be trusted in any way-- and causing mayhem to create propaganda is on the Russian agenda. :)( not laughing)
The Russian military plans to use provocation in Ukraine Mig-29 Ukrainian Air Force, captured in Crimea . It was on his Facebook page written by the coordinator of the "Information Resistance" D. TIMCHUK. "Now Loading Ammunition refueling combat aircraft seized at the airport" Belbek ". Earlier, the Russian side gave 37 Ukraine Ukrainian aircraft captured in Crimea, mostly - technically defective. When it came to the transfer of a working aircraft, the Russians stopped abruptly transfer process "- wrote Timchuk. According to the "IE" at the airport "Belbek" Russians are prepared to use 9 MiG-29 (7 - battle 2 - combat training). "These aircraft are Ukrainian markings and equipped with recognition of" friend or foe "as used in the Armed Forces of Ukraine", - said Timchuk. According to him, some of these aircraft is being prepared for use in Crimea, some will overturned to Russia - at the airport in Rostov region. previously reported, Russia has returned from the Crimea Ukraine airplanes that look more like metal.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/politika/rosiya-gotuye-provokaciyi-z-zahoplenimi-v-krimu-ukrayinskimi-litakami-timchuk-352792.html
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OSCE website was hacked today.
http://au.news.yahoo.com/technology/a/24150033/hackers-target-osce-website/
This occurred shortly after the Moscow news agency RT reported:
The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) also confirmed on Tuesday that the deadly explosion at the city’s administrative building was indeed an airstrike. Kiev has so far denied the responsibility for the incident, saying its forces “do not target” civilian areas.
RT states in the same release without attribution to OSCE:
Kiev has admitted showering the eastern Ukrainian city of Lugansk with dozens of missiles from the air, saying that its Air Force helicopters and jets “fired more than 150 missiles” in Monday’s military action.
If the Ukrainian Air Force indeed fired 150 missiles, it is quite possible that some missed their military target. That could explain the explosions resulting in the civilian deaths shown in Belvis's video. However, I would prefer to read the OSCE direct news releases rather than rely on RT, "....widely accused as being a mouthpiece of the Kremlin."
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I have a question.
How much time lapsed between the explosions at the Lugansk admin building and the release of the video from the nearby security camera? What would be a plausible lag of time between the two?
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OSCE website was hacked today.
http://au.news.yahoo.com/technology/a/24150033/hackers-target-osce-website/ (http://au.news.yahoo.com/technology/a/24150033/hackers-target-osce-website/)
This occurred shortly after the Moscow news agency RT reported:...
It may well be because there were an unexpectedly huge numbers of hits yesterday that crashed the site. I tried it and it didn't load at all so I had to cached it through Google. I did it again early this morning and it loaded although I think none of the recent reports are logged in as of yet.
http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/119479 (http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/119479)
The report regarding the unguided missile attacks are still on the front page.
edit
Clicked on the link and it is stalling again....so I printed the screen of yesterday's front page:
(http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag162/matteo251/OSCE1_zpsbc71e43e.jpg) (http://s1368.photobucket.com/user/matteo251/media/OSCE1_zpsbc71e43e.jpg.html)
(http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag162/matteo251/OSCE2_zpsc56d2c4d.jpg) (http://s1368.photobucket.com/user/matteo251/media/OSCE2_zpsc56d2c4d.jpg.html)
*Spliced to fit the page*
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OSCE website was hacked today.
http://au.news.yahoo.com/technology/a/24150033/hackers-target-osce-website/
Careful, Gator - don't you know that it's a sin to quote Yahoo? 8)
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Careful, Gator - don't you know that it's a sin to quote Yahoo? 8)
Gator also comments on the articles he posts using his own words. Imagine that! I guess you don't find it lazy to just post article after article while not contributing to the discussion.
I see you're starting shit again Kiwi. Now now, you need to start behaving mate. ;D
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If the Ukrainian Air Force indeed fired 150 missiles, it is quite possible that some missed their military target. That could explain the explosions resulting in the civilian deaths shown in Belvis's video. However, I would prefer to read the OSCE direct news releases rather than rely on RT, "....widely accused as being a mouthpiece of the Kremlin."
Unguided missiles at that from my understanding. That seems to be a hell of a lot of missiles in a urban environment.
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Unguided missiles at that from my understanding. That seems to be a hell of a lot of missiles in a urban environment.
Paraphrasing Willie Sutton - that's where the insurgents are. This is not conventional warfare. It is urban guerilla warfare.
150 missiles is indeed a large number even if guided. I guess Ukraine's jets and helicopters do not have the modern weapons that America uses to take out high value targets. And consider how many innocent civilians our "guided" missiles have killed in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan.
Unguided missiles depend on the skill of the pilot, who is not attacking on a slow, straight line because the insurgents are known to have ground-to-air missiles.
One of my good golfing buddies was a copter pilot in Vietnam. Three tours, shot down twice, lost his entire crew once and his co-pilot in the other. He is athletic, and he says firing rockets from a helicopter is very inaccurate.
Civilian deaths (collateral damage) happens when insurgents set up inside urban areas and the government wants to extricate them. The news reports I read suggest that routine life other than at the roadblocks and occupied government buildings in unchanged. Soccer games are played, concerts held, normal working hours, etc. If more of this collateral damage occurs, the civilians may start to evacuate in mass. Yet I suggest that the insurgents will continue to resist.
I guess the strategy of the Kiev government is to cause casualties among the insurgents, reducing their will power. This strategy did not work at Maidan.
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Here's an interesting website that explains things. I'm sure the truth will come out the Ukrainian armed forces didn't unleash those missiles at the government building. The OSCE report is based on LIMITED observations. If you watched Belvis's video, it shows the jet shooting thermal traps to the side of the jet to throw off heat seeking missiles targeting the plane. Offensive missiles shot from the plane would travel forward, not to the side. Also if one watches GQ's video, the missiles that targeted the building are traveling through the woods. I looked hard for any projectiles falling from the sky as if it were shot from a plane. There is none.
If militia are crazy enough to use the civilian population to hide among and conduct their operations, I wouldn't be surprised if they killed a few innocents to frame the government. Putin has given them orders to start a civil war in whatever way that works.
http://ukraineinvestigation.com/ukrainian-plane-attack-state-administration-luhansk/
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Here's an interesting website that explains things. I'm sure the truth will come out the Ukrainian armed forces didn't unleash those missiles at the government building.....
If militia are crazy enough to use the civilian population to hide among and conduct their operations, I wouldn't be surprised if they killed a few innocents to frame the government. Putin has given them orders to start a civil war in whatever way that works.
http://ukraineinvestigation.com/ukrainian-plane-attack-state-administration-luhansk/.....
Oh WOW! You really got the whole thing figured out! I mean, everyone should've relied on the Right Sector's investigative team for everything Ukraine in the first place. Their investigation of the Kiev sniper was just awesome, too! Imagine that...
(http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag162/matteo251/628x471_zpsd191e55d.jpg) (http://s1368.photobucket.com/user/matteo251/media/628x471_zpsd191e55d.jpg.html)
Interesting *website that explains things* indeed!
:ROFL:
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Oh WOW! You really got the whole thing figured out! I mean, everyone should've relied on the Right Sector's investigative team for everything Ukraine in the first place. Their investigation of the Kiev sniper was just awesome, too! Imagine that...
Feeling insecure that site I provided actually used reason in their assessment of what happened compared to the site you used that had a bloggers opinion that the events that happened is clear evidence the government in Kiev ordered it? The blogger's video clearly show the rockets traveling a few feet above the ground and through the trees. He made a mistake and showed a video that is counter productive to his argument. YOU made the same mistake linking that site to us.
Look at the photos in the site I provided. Those rockets couldn't even penetrate the building. Missiles fired from attack jets are much more powerful than those carried by man and are supposed to bust armored vehicles and yet the missiles used on the building couldn't even penetrate brick and mortar.
If you found out Putin ordered warfare in a civilian setting and using dirty tactics to frame the Ukrainian government, would you change your mind about Putin and the whole ordeal? I doubt it. Those Ukrainians deserve what they have coming to them. Ya?
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If you found out Putin ordered warfare in a civilian setting and using dirty tactics to frame the Ukrainian government, would you change your mind about Putin and the whole ordeal? I doubt it. Those Ukrainians deserve what they have coming to them. Ya?
Putting words in his mouth now, Billy? A sure sign of losing an argument.
You guys really have the theories going when it comes to Putin. If anyone were to say the same thing about the USA, you would be crying conspiracy crack jobs.
If it was a missile that was shot from the ground, it was probably just something that went wrong. I do enjoy the Putin theories that he sent the order to bomb the building the same time the plane was to fire several unguided missiles. Putin must be all seeing if he knows when a Ukrainian fighter jet will shoot missiles and have the ground crew time their missiles at the same time.
The hypocrisy doesn't surprise me though.
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A sure sign of losing an argument.
When I resort to your and GQ's tactics of calling people names, calling them MOB'ers and belittling them, that's when I lose an argument.
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When I resort to your and GQ's tactics of calling people names, calling them MOB'ers and belittling them, that's when I lose an argument.
You lost a long time ago. That is why you use faulty logic, taking comments out of context and putting words into their mouths.
Your logic wasn't meant for this world, dude, but a reality none has seen but only in our dreams.
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When I resort to your and GQ's tactics of calling people names, calling them MOB'ers and belittling them, that's when I lose an argument.
That's from YOUR vantage point, BillyB. LOL. Ain't my fault...just calling things as they are. You boysies are doing a great job proving my point day in and day out.
;)
>>Ukraine Investigative team...explains things! <<
What a crack-up! The site ask for donations...please tell us you didn't send them money, too!
:ROFL:
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That is why you use faulty logic,
Logic may seem faulty to you and GQ but you must first possess the ability to understand logic. The video from the link GQ provided clearly shows the rockets traveling through the trees. The video Belvis provided shows thermal flares shooting from the side of the plane. I looked hard for evidence of missiles raining down from the sky,....you know, the place where planes fly? Instead of debating what actually happened as in many previous debates, you and GQ go on attack on a website or posters as usual when you run out of arguments. It doesn't matter if information is coming from Yahoo, Fox News, BBC, Al Jazeera, or a bloggers website, everybody has the ability to tell the truth. Tell me what is wrong with the evidence presented by the site I linked? They've done a better job than anybody on the internet analyzing the location of the plane, the thermal traps, not missiles, shot from the side of the plane, and the minimal damage to the building that is unrealistic compared what a air to surface missile can do.
The OSCE reported what happened based on LIMITED observation. They saw the plane in the sky launching thermal traps. They saw the damage to the building so what are they missing? Obviously it's the same thing we are missing and that's evidence of missiles flying from a plane and into a building. The militants are professional soldiers from Russia. They understand how these things work and locked radar on the plane to threaten a launch and knew the plane would launch thermal flares in response. At that time they likely radioed their buddies hiding in the trees to fire their weapons at the building.
.just calling things as they are.
I've read people calling you a few things but you showed them no respect for telling the truth. Start a poll GQ to find out how likable of a person you are. Not many people would waste their time and have a drink with you in real life. I remember LiveFromUkraine asking to hook up with you when he's visiting LA. Did it happen or is he beneath you too? When I become a high class person, I may take up your hobby of coming to forums, get extremely emotional to what low level people do and say, and torture them with name calling and allegations.
How about this GQ and LivefromUkraine, lets stick to facts and evidence pertaining to this situation. Show the people here some evidence of projectiles flying down from the sky into the building or show us some holes in the evidence the site is showing that I provided. Ridiculing the site is not going to get rid of the truth. We know how important to you and Putin it is to pin the blame on the fascists in the Ukrainian government. :rolleyes:
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Logic may seem faulty to you and GQ but you must first possess the ability to understand logic. The video from the link GQ provided clearly shows the rockets traveling through the trees. The video Belvis provided shows thermal flares shooting from the side of the plane. I looked hard for evidence of missiles raining down from the sky,....you know, the place where planes fly? Instead of debating what actually happened as in many previous debates, you and GQ go on attack on a website or posters as usual when you run out of arguments. It doesn't matter if information is coming from Yahoo, Fox News, BBC, Al Jazeera, or a bloggers website, everybody has the ability to tell the truth. Tell me what is wrong with the evidence presented by the site I linked? They've done a better job than anybody on the internet analyzing the location of the plane, the thermal traps, not missiles, shot from the side of the plane, and the minimal damage to the building that is unrealistic compared what a air to surface missile can do.
What is funny is I didn't say anything about your little site even if showing it as evidence makes you look silly.
I was also the first one that said it looked like it could have been something fired from the park. I originally didn't think it was from a plane. Yet, here you are trying to say otherwise. Must be your faulty reading comprehension that goes along with your illogical nonsense.
The OSCE reported what happened based on LIMITED observation. They saw the plane in the sky launching thermal traps. They saw the damage to the building so what are they missing? Obviously it's the same thing we are missing and that's evidence of missiles flying from a plane and into a building. The militants are professional soldiers from Russia. They understand how these things work and locked radar on the plane to threaten a launch and knew the plane would launch thermal flares in response. At that time they likely radioed their buddies hiding in the trees to fire their weapons at the building.
Ah, Mr 3rd party needs to verify everything, in Ukraine, but never really believe what they say when they do. First the elections weren't good enough and now this isn't good enough. Yet, you still think Ukraine needs management help from the west.
More illogical poop from BillyB.
I remember LiveFromUkraine asking to hook up with you when he's visiting LA. Did it happen or is he beneath you too?
haha Are you insane? I never said anything about hooking up with GQ in LA. Don't let reality stop you. Hilarious stuff, man. That reminds me of you trying to get validation from jmana's ex wife asking if she would have coffee with you.
I love this forum!
How about this GQ and LivefromUkraine, lets stick to facts and evidence pertaining to this situation. Show the people here some evidence of projectiles flying down from the sky into the building or show us some holes in the evidence the site is showing that I provided. Ridiculing the site is not going to get rid of the truth. We know how important to you and Putin it is to pin the blame on the fascists in the Ukrainian government. :rolleyes:
I never said it came from a plane. Saying I did is typical of your facts, though, hardly surprising. So how about you stick with the facts.
With that said, I will believe OCSE until proven otherwise. It is the best evidence we have that doesn't rely on blaming Putin. It no doubt makes more sense than Putin shooting a missile from the park at the same time the plane shot their missiles just to make the Ukraine government look bad.
Again, everything is possible in your little world Billy.
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Logic may seem faulty to you and GQ but you must first possess the ability to understand logic. The video from the link GQ provided clearly shows the rockets traveling through the trees. The video Belvis provided shows thermal flares shooting from the side of the plane. I looked hard for evidence of missiles raining down from the sky,....you know, the place where planes fly? Instead of debating what actually happened as in many previous debates, you and GQ go on attack on a website or posters as usual when you run out of arguments. It doesn't matter if information is coming from Yahoo, Fox News, BBC, Al Jazeera, or a bloggers website, everybody has the ability to tell the truth. Tell me what is wrong with the evidence presented by the site I linked? They've done a better job than anybody on the internet analyzing the location of the plane, the thermal traps, not missiles, shot from the side of the plane, and the minimal damage to the building that is unrealistic compared what a air to surface missile can do.
The OSCE reported what happened based on LIMITED observation. They saw the plane in the sky launching thermal traps. They saw the damage to the building so what are they missing? Obviously it's the same thing we are missing and that's evidence of missiles flying from a plane and into a building. The militants are professional soldiers from Russia. They understand how these things work and locked radar on the plane to threaten a launch and knew the plane would launch thermal flares in response. At that time they likely radioed their buddies hiding in the trees to fire their weapons at the building.
I've read people calling you a few things but you showed them no respect for telling the truth. Start a poll GQ to find out how likable of a person you are. Not many people would waste their time and have a drink with you in real life. I remember LiveFromUkraine asking to hook up with you when he's visiting LA. Did it happen or is he beneath you too? When I become a high class person, I may take up your hobby of coming to forums, get extremely emotional to what low level people do and say, and torture them with name calling and allegations.
How about this GQ and LivefromUkraine, lets stick to facts and evidence pertaining to this situation. Show the people here some evidence of projectiles flying down from the sky into the building or show us some holes in the evidence the site is showing that I provided. Ridiculing the site is not going to get rid of the truth. We know how important to you and Putin it is to pin the blame on the fascists in the Ukrainian government. :rolleyes:
The coolest thing about this entire enchilada BillyB...is the sole fact every exchanges we've had recently remains as they've been exchanged. From election *dissenting opinions* to your recent *ka-ka website that explains things*. I will admit that at least, unlike your cohort, you add your own *thoughts* (regardless how hysterically faulty they may be) for every website link you posted.
So, did you donated monies to Svoboda? I'm sure Nuland baked them a new batch of cookies already. LOL!
So go chase *projectiles and missiles yourself*. It's classically entertaining I must admit. It's almost as hysterically funny as Sleepy Cat's wife-hunting trip reports or jmana's relationships.
:ROFL:
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I never said anything about hooking up with GQ....
Sure you wanted to hook up with GQ. You want me to remind you? You two are like brothers on this forum. Except for the rare bickering, you both think alike.
That reminds me of you trying to get validation from jmana's ex wife asking if she would have coffee with you.
I don't discuss what is exchanged in PM's but you have a lot to learn about women.
So go chase *projectiles and missiles yourself*.
I'll take that as a "NO". You do not want to discuss who shot missiles at the building anymore based on evidence and prefer to believe in fantasy. Can you explain to us why Kiev spent tens of thousands of dollars on missiles to kill civilians instead of using them on militants? Ukraine has a limited supply of munitions. It's best they use it wisely on the enemy. If their goal is to kill civilians, apartment buildings and schools are a better choice than a government building. I have not read anything that said a militant died in that attack. Probably because militants don't shoot their own men?
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Sure you wanted to hook up with GQ. You want me to remind you? You two are like brothers on this forum. Except for the rare bickering, you both think alike.
Yes, remind me when I asked GQ to meet up when I was visiting LA. You might as well remind me when I had planned on visiting LA since I don't even recall that.
I don't discuss what is exchanged in PM's but you have a lot to learn about women.
:ROFL: We all know you fancy yourself as a teacher dude, but there is nothing you could possibly teach me about women. We obviously have different tastes. I definitely don't need a woman with little experience to make me feel important.
Speaking of the need to feel important... You asking her if she would meet up for coffee if you were in her city reeked of insecurity and seeking validation will put off any woman. Besides it being creepy as hell.
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...I don't discuss what is exchanged in PM's but you have a lot to learn about women....
Yeah. Like *how to lie to any woman you profess to mean the world to you while she laid ill in a hospital bed *! LOL.
...I'll take that as a "NO". You do not want to discuss who shot missiles at the building anymore based on evidence and prefer to believe in fantasy. Can you explain to us why Kiev spent tens of thousands of dollars on missiles to kill civilians instead of using them on militants? Ukraine has a limited supply of munitions. It's best they use it wisely on the enemy. If their goal is to kill civilians, apartment buildings and schools are a better choice than a government building. I have not read anything that said a militant died in that attack. Probably because militants don't shoot their own men?
Obviously you have reading comprehension issues. I provided OSCE's site where they reported those rockets came from an aircraft. You can *dissent your opinions* on this one where the sun don't shine.
You are also obviously too dense to notice as well that the CCTV video was *zoomed* for the sole purpose of illustration what that *spark* was that came from the park's trees. You won't be able to convince anyone that you can *see* rockets traveling at a very high rate of speed taken from a camera that far away, and one not equipped with fast shutters to capture that type of video. This is really telling about your silliness.
Stick to the Right Sector investigation report, BillyB. You are exactly the type of readers they're hoping to captivate. LOL.
So, answer the question...did you or did you not send Svoboda your donations? :P
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the first casualty of war is the truth
the rest were caused by these
(http://weaponsystems.net/image.php?&size=lightbox&image=/img/ws/msl_agm_s8_o1.jpg)
think of it as an airborne katuyusha and about as accurate (football field sized target), it did rather neatly bisect the tire barricade
if the building was the target, it did get a few hits, if it was the barricade, then it did its job, but a weapon like that you can't get any more precise than what they did, good they didn't hit Poland! Rember Ukraine's military is the one who shot down the commercial jet liner by mistake and also fired a missile into an apartment building by mistake, and remember the air show? You go with the military and weapons you have and not what you wish you had.
Of course none of the videos will show anyone shooting at the planes before they fired their rockets...
Ukraine to Separatists, I'll see your bet and raise you...
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the first casualty of war is the truth
the rest were caused by these
(http://weaponsystems.net/image.php?&size=lightbox&image=/img/ws/msl_agm_s8_o1.jpg)
think of it as an airborne katuyusha and about as accurate (football field sized target), it did rather neatly bisect the tire barricade
if the building was the target, it did get a few hits, if it was the barricade, then it did its job, but a weapon like that you can't get any more precise than what they did, good they didn't hit Poland! Rember Ukraine's military is the one who shot down the commercial jet liner by mistake and also fired a missile into an apartment building by mistake, and remember the air show? You go with the military and weapons you have and not what you wish you had.
Of course none of the videos will show anyone shooting at the planes before they fired their rockets...
Ukraine to Separatists, I'll see your bet and raise you...
I was just reading a site talking about what happened but had some more details on the s-8's. It also mentioned the explosions could be from cluster bombs which would make sense looking at the explosions throughout the park and across the street.
http://www.armamentresearch.com/ukrainian-air-force-strike-lugansk-with-s-8kom-rockets/ (http://www.armamentresearch.com/ukrainian-air-force-strike-lugansk-with-s-8kom-rockets/)
Supposedly this was found on the scene.
(http://www.armamentresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/S-8KOM_Twitter.jpg)
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They wouldn't happen to fit into something like this, I wonder?
(http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag162/matteo251/220px-Sukhoi_Su-25_2008_G4_zpse4326204.jpg) (http://s1368.photobucket.com/user/matteo251/media/220px-Sukhoi_Su-25_2008_G4_zpse4326204.jpg.html)
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They wouldn't happen to fit into something like this, I wonder?
(http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag162/matteo251/220px-Sukhoi_Su-25_2008_G4_zpse4326204.jpg) (http://s1368.photobucket.com/user/matteo251/media/220px-Sukhoi_Su-25_2008_G4_zpse4326204.jpg.html)
Yeah, but I am afraid Billy may be right that Putin was behind it. A new camera angle has captured Putin's treachery.
(http://www.jewsnews.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/6.jpeg)
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:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
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yeah, you can read 8KOM on it! looks like Ukraine gave them a 21 pod salute!
too bad we don't let Ukraine have Predator UAV's with HellFires with an iPhone app to control HellFire launch and tracking
dealing with Russian separatists? there's an app for that!
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Johnny McCain really, really wanted to.....except I think he already gave up his allotment to Al Qaeda in Syria. Biden may still have a couple, or three, he's not using in the state of Nevada.
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Supposedly this was found on the scene.
(http://www.armamentresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/S-8KOM_Twitter.jpg)
"Supposedly" is the key word here. It's no secret the Ukrainian jets fired on militia multiple times near Lugansk with S-8KOM rockets and fragments are always within reach for the militia. Fragments could be picked up from one location and taken to the scene. Problem is your favorite new source, RT reported within hours of the attack there are unexploded shells at the scene. No guessing here. According to RT and the militia, THERE ARE unexploded shells at the scene which could help prove who did it. Where are the photos of those unexploded shells(plural)? Probably didn't match up well to S-8KOM rockets fired from jets so they had to bring in the S-8KOM fragments to submit as evidence days later.
http://rt.com/news/163076-ukraine-lugansk-clashes-jet/
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Problem is your favorite new source, RT reported within hours of the attack there are unexploded shells at the scene. No guessing here.
Here we go again, now RT is my favorite news source. Sort of like how I asked to meet GQ while visiting LA. I'm still waiting for that reminder dude.
According to RT and the militia, THERE ARE unexploded shells at the scene which could help prove who did it. Where are the photos of those unexploded shells(plural)? Probably didn't match up well to S-8KOM rockets fired from jets so they had to bring in the S-8KOM fragments to submit as evidence days later.
http://rt.com/news/163076-ukraine-lugansk-clashes-jet/ (http://rt.com/news/163076-ukraine-lugansk-clashes-jet/)
Maybe whoever reported was so drunk from vodka they mistaken an old babushka for an unexploded shell. When they woke up and saw the pictures, they shrugged their shoulders and just went back to drinking.
I don't think our little stories will really add any credibility to this situation and maybe we should wait to see if more info comes out. I have to admit I am enjoying watching you go to great lengths in order to blame Putin.
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Here we go again, now RT is my favorite news source.
Kinda like you repeating yourself over and over that JayH uses Yahoo for news? Annoying isn't it?
Sort of like how I asked to meet GQ while visiting LA. I'm still waiting for that reminder dude.
I can't remember everything you said but at least my memory is better than yours. Post #256. You wanted to meet up with GQ. You don't have to be ashamed and pretend you never said it now because you finally realized GQ isn't popular here.
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16356.msg342123;topicseen#msg342123
I have to admit I am enjoying watching you go to great lengths in order to blame Putin.
I'm happy you're getting an orgasm reading my posts but my posts are to debate the evidence, not blame Putin. Putin does a good enough job himself to not need my help. He sends militants into the civilian population to fight. Civilians are going to get killed. Putin wants and expects collateral damage and understands there are people in the world that will blame Ukraine's government for creating the problems. In my search for evidence, I found lots of blogs and forums where people think Putin is right, the government in Kiev are fascists and killers. Putin said he wants to protect Russian speakers in Ukraine just like he did in Crimea. He lied.
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Kinda like you repeating yourself over and over that JayH uses Yahoo for news? Annoying isn't it?
No, not even kinda close to what I was talking about. It doesn't surprise me, though.
I can't remember everything you said but at least my memory is better than yours. Post #256. You wanted to meet up with GQ.
I knew exactly what you where talking about which is why it was so funny how twisted you got it. GQ and I mentioned possibly meeting up if we where both in Philippines at the same time which wasn't even close to what you said.
Unfortunately I wasn't able to go because of some projects that never seem to end.
You don't have to be ashamed and pretend you never said it now because you finally realized GQ isn't popular here.
That sounds like a good reason to meet up with someone from here. To be honest, I wouldn't be interested in hanging out with the majority of people here. Being unpopular here isn't what I would consider a bad thing.
but my posts are to debate the evidence, not blame Putin.
:ROFL: Evidence? Like how the separatist could, possibly, maybe have got a piece of missile and planted it to frame the Ukrainian military?
He lied.
Of course he lies. I wouldn't expect him to be any different than any other politician.
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:ROFL: Evidence? Like how the separatist could, possibly, maybe have got a piece of missile and planted it to frame the Ukrainian military?
There were cameras on the scene right after the explosions. Unexploded shells were reported there by the militia and RT news. Where are the photos of those shells? Showing us photos of S8-KOM shell fragments "allegedly" found at the scene days later is not evidence. You're free to believe it if you want, but don't expect rational thinkers to accept it.
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...but don't expect rational thinkers to except it.
:ROFL:
Yeah. Rational thinkers read and subscribe to UkraineInvestigation.com to explain everything. LOL.
...That sounds like a good reason to meet up with someone from here. To be honest, I wouldn't be interested in hanging out with the majority of people here. Being unpopular here isn't what I would consider a bad thing....
Dang exactly right. I LOVE knowing that I may in fact be THE MOST unpopular, albeit sexiest, dude 'round these parts. That fact in itself will undoubtedly reinforce my point about MOBers.
>:D
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Being unpopular here isn't what I would consider a bad thing.
Probably would make you normal everyplace else.
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:ROFL:
Dang exactly right. I LOVE knowing that I may in fact be THE MOST unpopular, albeit sexiest, dude 'round these parts. That fact in itself will undoubtedly reinforce my point about MOBers.
>:D
Cough, cough......the one next to me says I am rather sexy..... myself!!! Go figure!!! :P
What's that saying..... Sexy is....What sexy does!!!
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There were cameras on the scene right after the explosions. Unexploded shells were reported there by the militia and RT news. Where are the photos of those shells? Showing us photos of S8-KOM shell fragments "allegedly" found at the scene days later is not evidence. You're free to believe it if you want, but don't expect rational thinkers to accept it.
I never said the s8 shells were evidence. I said "Supposedly".... again with the reading problems. With that said, pointing out a shell might have been found on site is far better than your "what if" scenarios that you dream up. "What if" this and "What if" that is hardly debating. Even if the shell found was verified you would still come up with strange scenarios in order blame Putin. For me, I am more interested in learning the truth while you seem to be more interested in blaming one party.
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Cough, cough......the one next to me says I am rather sexy..... myself!!! Go figure!!! :P
What's the name of your puppy? :P
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pointing out a shell might have been found on site is far better than your "what if" scenarios that you dream up. "What if" this and "What if" that is hardly debating.
The site you provide said the shell fragments could have been from a previous engagement even before I did. If you don't like "what ifs", don't supply those sites for people to debate with. :wallbash: Stick with sites that talk about confirmed evidence.
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The site you provide said the shell fragments could have been from a previous engagement even before I did. If you don't like "what ifs", don't supply those sites for people to debate with. :wallbash: Stick with sites that talk about confirmed evidence.
What if Billy could actually think logically would be a what if that I could debate. Next you will be posting links to sites that try to triangulate the planes path and missiles. Oh wait... you did!
You can't beat evidence like UkraineInvestigation.com.
Oh, look, it's a weird tree with green lines and that means the missiles couldn't have been shot from the plane.
(http://ukraineinvestigation.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/07-Firing-rockets-1024x576.jpg)
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You can't beat evidence like UkraineInvestigation.com.
Jesus Christ! Can you and GQ try to debate like adults instead of children for once? Can you try and use your brain and make even a small attempt to counter what the site says instead of ridiculing it? Every site you provided, I debated the subject it talks about to dismiss it's claims, not make fun of the site.
Maybe I should use your styling of debating from now on and for every site you link, I'll respond with :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
That way I'll show everyone here I have as much intelligence as you and GQ
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Jesus Christ! Can you and GQ try to debate like adults instead of children for once? Can you try and use your brain and make even a small attempt to counter what the site says instead of ridiculing it? Every site you provided, I debated the subject it talks about to dismiss it's claims, not make fun of the site.
How the hell am I suppose to take UkraineInvestigations serious enough to debate it? Cmon, man, think!
What if the tree had purple squiggly lines?
Here is the dealio Billy. I am not debating anything on this topic. I am simply trying to figure out what happened.
I originally thought it was something that was shot from the ground. I posted it before you if you want to look back. I am not certain, though, and looking at more sources have led me to believe I was wrong. Being wrong is ok.
Now, you, on the other hand, seem to want to be right no matter what really happened. So much so that you are posting sites with pictures of trees and you expect us to debate that nonsense.
Edited to add: :ROFL:
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...
(http://www.jewsnews.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/6.jpeg)
Jesus Christ!
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
There. Fix that for you BillyB!
Add:
:ROFL:
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Billy here you go.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/03/world/europe/ukraine-luhansk-building-attack/ (http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/03/world/europe/ukraine-luhansk-building-attack/)
The tops of trees were splintered, and a series of small craters -- about a dozen -- had been blasted in a straight line, starting in the park and reaching the walls of the building, blowing out many of its windows and spraying the area with jagged shrapnel.
Now, I wonder how Putin could stage that. ;)
Anyway, does anyone know if the building was seized by separatists? I'm wondering if this was the actual target or a bad accident.
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You two guys remind me of boys throwing rocks at the zoo gorilla.
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...
Anyway, does anyone know if the building was seized by separatists? I'm wondering if this was the actual target or a bad accident.
IINM, the building was supposed to have been taken over by the separatists. One report I read 3 days ago also said the blasts killed one of the separatist leader.
There is a video in this blog. The blogger is actually the one who originally created all the surgical diagrams that have been since used/shown in other sites. The original release was the one cc3 posted in another thread which original portrayed a militant attack as opposed to an air attack. The blogger then changed that conclusion and corrected himself to say that it was in fact an air assault.
This is a link to his blog with a youtube video of the debris found on the blast site.
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.nl/2014/06/ukraine-needs-to-come-with-really-good.html (http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.nl/2014/06/ukraine-needs-to-come-with-really-good.html)
This blogger is one good example at how knee-jerk reactionary damnation can do to you...Here's an Australian blogger who also did the same type of pseudo-CSI. His study is more up-to-date.
http://tomgiuretis.com/2014/06/an-assessment-of-the-june-2-luhansk-administration-building-attacks/
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The original release was the one cc3 posted in another thread which original portrayed a militant attack as opposed to an air attack. The blogger then changed that conclusion and corrected himself to say that it was in fact an air assault.
This is a link to his blog with a youtube video of the debris found on the blast site.
ha! We haven't heard much from cc3. Unfortunately, that is how the news is delivered these days. There seems to be a race to get anything out while not worrying about the facts. We have to piece this stuff together over time.
This blogger is one good example at how knee-jerk reactionary damnation can do to you...Here's an Australian blogger who also did the same type of pseudo-CSI. His study is more up-to-date.
http://tomgiuretis.com/2014/06/an-assessment-of-the-june-2-luhansk-administration-building-attacks/ (http://tomgiuretis.com/2014/06/an-assessment-of-the-june-2-luhansk-administration-building-attacks/)
Ah, looking at the videos, on that site, you could see tires propped up as a barrier outside the building. The building does look like it was taken over and probably the real target.
Man, you have to wonder how the military will continue trying to get the separatist out of these buildings. It should never have been allowed in Kiev and now it seems to be more widespread.
Hopefully the civilians will learn from this and avoid these types of sites from now on. The military needs to communicate with the civilians, in the area, to at least let them know how to stay out of harm.
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You two guys remind me of boys throwing rocks at the zoo gorilla.
Maxx, you shouldn't call Billy a gorilla. Just post these instead. :ROFL:
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What's the name of your puppy? :P
Not a puppy anymore....fully grown and 'developed' but.......she was sitting on my lap!!! :P
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Billy here you go.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/03/world/europe/ukraine-luhansk-building-attack/ (http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/03/world/europe/ukraine-luhansk-building-attack/)
Now, I wonder how Putin could stage that. ;)
HA!!! You silly rabbit! After believing media articles from the Western propaganda machine, you should have your head examined! Everything you said on the forum should be dismissed and I wouldn't get involved with your type of women. Your tastes aren't good enough for me since you're a classic MOB'er. I love this place! Great entertainment! :ROFL: :ROFL: :shock:
Was that productive debating or what?
Actually I value what the CNN military expert said in the article. His assessment and report was made within a day of the attacks. I still have questions. Why didn't this military expert report seeing unexploded shells or even the shell fragment clearly showing writing of S8KOM which is ordinance the Ukrainian air force uses? Why are the Russian media and militia finding more evidence than the western media and their military experts? Shrapnel can travel many meters and can splinter tree limbs up in the air. Need more evidence like photos of the unexploded shells that RT and the militia reported they found. As hard as Russia is running with this story, one would think the evidence of unexploded shells found soon after the attack is crucial. One can clearly identify an unexploded shell with it's delivery system.
I'm going to make you laugh your ass off again by presenting you with a Yahoo news article. Says there are separatists operating on church grounds. You can be sure more innocents are going to be killed based on their choice of battlegrounds.
http://news.yahoo.com/separatists-eastern-ukraine-attack-border-post-081824997.html
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Was that productive debating or what?
I have to say it's an improvement Billy. Much better than "Uh, hey, like, if I was in your town, would you, like, I don't know, get coffee or something with me?"
or
"You obviously don't know anything about women, just yesterday I was telling my mother in law how I make love to my wife and she said da, dat tis good BoobyB."
Actually I value what the CNN military expert said in the article. His assessment and report was made within a day of the attacks. I still have questions. Why didn't this military expert report seeing unexploded shells or even the shell fragment clearly showing writing of S8KOM which is ordinance the Ukrainian air force uses? Why are the Russian media and militia finding more evidence than the western media and their military experts? Shrapnel can travel many meters and can splinter tree limbs up in the air. Need more evidence like photos of the unexploded shells that RT and the militia reported they found. As hard as Russia is running with this story, one would think the evidence of unexploded shells found soon after the attack is crucial. One can clearly identify an unexploded shell with it's delivery system.
You should also be asking why Kiev lied if this did happen and it looks like it did.
I'm going to make you laugh your ass off again by presenting you with a Yahoo news article. Says there are separatists operating on church grounds. You can be sure more innocents are going to be killed based on their choice of battlegrounds.
http://news.yahoo.com/separatists-eastern-ukraine-attack-border-post-081824997.html (http://news.yahoo.com/separatists-eastern-ukraine-attack-border-post-081824997.html)
No doubt there will be more. That is why Kiev needs to try and reduce casualties by communicating with the residents more. If you're going to start bombing public areas, they should at least try to get out as many innocents as possible.
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Not a puppy anymore....fully grown and 'developed' but.......she was sitting on my lap!!! :P
LAman, it looks like the only way to settle this is a good ole fashioned beauty pageant between you and GQ. The judges will need to be gathered from somewhere else since GQ is unpopular here. haha
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Maxx, you shouldn't call Billy a gorilla. Just post these instead. :ROFL:
Or this and shame our resident gorilla.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fcb4rLzXFl0
PUNTINCIZE!
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Putin has ordered the security services to strengthen the border with Ukraine.
Is that to stop the pro-Russian militants entering into Ukraine from Russia ?
Or has he heard that Ukraine people are now planning tit for tat actions in Russia ?
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The US state department says Russia has sent Tanks and Rocket launchers to seperatists in Ukraine.
William Hague,the UK foreign secretary, has said "The entry into the sovereign territory of Ukraine of three Russian tanks is completely unacceptable "
But of course certain pro-Russian sympathisers on here claim it's the west that is interfering in Ukraine. :rolleyes:
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The US state department says Russia has sent Tanks and Rocket launchers to seperatists in Ukraine.
William Hague,the UK foreign secretary, has said "The entry into the sovereign territory of Ukraine of three Russian tanks is completely unacceptable "
But of course certain pro-Russian sympathisers on here claim it's the west that is interfering in Ukraine. :rolleyes:
Yeah, coming from the country that invented 1984, anything Your secretary this or that say, just muuuuust be true....
Besides, whatever anyone in Great Britain may say, I say... you lost the world dominance 100 years ago and what you've left With now is being a sidekick of the New empire. William Hague.... hahahahahaha. Best if you stick to the royal Family, make Beefeater gin and maintain whats left over after a great culture. Modern Brittain is a pathetic sick joke.
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The US state department says Russia has sent Tanks and Rocket launchers to seperatists in Ukraine.
William Hague,the UK foreign secretary, has said "The entry into the sovereign territory of Ukraine of three Russian tanks is completely unacceptable "
But of course certain pro-Russian sympathisers on here claim it's the west that is interfering in Ukraine. :rolleyes:
:ROFL:
...and what exactly did Mr. Hague do after that rant? My guess is between 'zip & nada', right?
Ukrainians didn't want anything to do with NATO, so they're getting from the west exactly what they wanted in terms of military assistance - zip and nada. Besides, it never was Ukrainians the 'west' were interested in from the very beginning of this silly event. This was never a *humanitarian* matter. It was always what was underneath Ukraine - $$$$.
Why do you think little regard was given for that faux pas sniper attack in Kiev when that plan was conveniently executed? Kill a few Ukrainians and wait until the dust settle itself out - then cash in on the loot. By that time, more than a few Ukrainians will die for it and neither your country or mine, nor Germany or France could really give a hoot? LOL. Ukraine will likely have better compassion from China, but even that is debatable. This silliness had been happening since the demise of the League of Nations and the creation of the UN. Ukraine was the sacrificial pawn in this entire charade. Folks like you was gooberish enough to swallow what your media fed you.
Read this Kiev report (http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/editorial/ukraine-goes-it-alone-351664.html) and stop your dramatics and emotional drooling and face reality.
...The United Kingdom continues its game of talking tough and doing nothing to upset the London financial system of laundering dirty money from Russian oligarchs and other criminals. It is left to Prince Charles to call out Putin’s Hitler-esque behavior....
Ukraine is today's Rwanda!
With Asaad's re-election in Syria, the PO'd Saudis had retaliated in Iraq for Obama's ineptness and failed promise. The Sunni's resurgence will definitely affect the oil market and automatically give Russia added economic boost and switch the crisis to oil instead of gas.
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The Natural,
Coming from the mighty Norway,and spoken like a true pro-Russian sympathiser,which we all know you are. :)
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Russian propaganda machine 'worse than Soviet Union'
Russian media is reminiscent of the propaganda produced in the Soviet Union.
Moscow was in the midst of a heat wave when I arrived. The heady scent of lilac on the long warm evenings brought people out on to the streets.
One night on the embankment of the Moskva River, a drunken band of students tried to engage me in conversation, and then staggered off down the street.
There is always a slightly celebratory air at this time of year - a realisation that winter is over and a few precious months of sun are here.
But this year's euphoria is underpinned by a sense of having proved to the world that Russians can come out on top. A surge of self-confidence, after the humiliations of post-Soviet collapse.
"We're on a roll," one Russian TV editor in chief tells me. "No-one can stop us now."
"First the Sochi Olympics, then we got Crimea back," says another man who I meet on Red Square. "And now we've won the World Ice Hockey championships as well."
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27713847
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GQBlues,
Unlike you I am facing reality...despite all your posturing and attempts at deflections,the fact remains Russia is sending arms and men to Ukraine to kill Ukrainians.
Now you can deal with that thought in your own little world in anyway you wish. :)
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The Natural,
Coming from the mighty Norway,and spoken like a true pro-Russian sympathiser,which we all know you are. :)
Mighty Norway... hell no, and I never wish that upon my country because it leads to grand thoughts and misery. What I wish for is a country that minds it's own business, have good relations With everybody else and not send F-16's on bombing raids over other countries that never did anything to us (like we did With Libya).
Yes, you're right that I sympathise With Russia in all this. Simply because it's right and I'm sick of the western hipocracy and war- mongering that might very well bring us the final war which every sane person realize will be the end of us all, except the crazies in Washington and their minions in Europe.
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Why is GQBlues on this forum?
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The Natural,
So there are no crazies in Moscow ?
I beg to differ.
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Russia admits that its troops are fighting Ukraine
Russia admits that its troops are fighting Ukraine , but from time to time in social networks get pictures of Russian paratroopers taking part in anti-Ukrainian campaign. "Cargo 200" now comes regularly to the white stone. TSN correspondent visited the town in the Moscow region, where they buried one of those who fought in Ukraine, according to a story TSN. 19:30 . Residents of the city Elektrogorsk Sergey Zhdanovicha buried last weekend after the family received the body transported from Donetsk to Rostov, and in the Moscow region town. Sergei died in Donetsk airport in the battle for the airport. The news of his death quickly spread through the small town.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/svit/rodicham-zagiblih-na-donbasi-rosiyskih-naymanciv-zaboronili-kazati-pro-yihni-podvigi-354524.html
http://tsn.ua/svit/rodicham-zagiblih-na-donbasi-rosiyskih-naymanciv-zaboronili-kazati-pro-yihni-podvigi-354524.html
Three of the death toll in the Donbas Russians living in the Moscow suburbs.
In Moscow secretly and without public disclosure buried Russians who died as a result of fighting in Donetsk. According to the users of social networks, three from among those killed in the Donbas Russians living in the suburbs. "In the spring, all three somehow trapped in a neighboring country, where they fought in the ranks of the anti-government forces were killed in late May during the fighting in Donetsk" - wrote the first deputy holovreda "Echo of Moscow" Vladimir Varfolomyeyev on his page on Facebook.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/svit/u-pidmoskov-yi-tayemno-pohovali-rosiyan-zagiblih-na-donbasi-353663.html
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/svit/u-pidmoskov-yi-tayemno-pohovali-rosiyan-zagiblih-na-donbasi-353663.html
Most experts have already dubbed this a test ride as military invasion.
Russian tanks that crossed the uncontrolled borders in the East already in Donetsk. Several cars and smashed Ukrainian military convoy. However, experts worry cause scale use against Ukraine military equipment, according to a story TSN. 19:30 . Unexpected visit the most popular Soviet T-72 tank, done hype Donbas not only the local population but also among the military generals. Most experts have already dubbed this a test ride - both military invasion. Russian tanks are riding Donetsk "In Ukraine there are no armed tanks T-72, the majority of experts and I am inclined, these tanks have come across the border with Russia", - said military analyst Valentin Badra
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/viyskovi-eksperti-vikrili-vrazlivi-miscya-rosiyskih-tankiv-yaki-teroristi-prignali-na-donbas-354521.html
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/viyskovi-eksperti-vikrili-vrazlivi-miscya-rosiyskih-tankiv-yaki-teroristi-prignali-na-donbas-354521.html
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My apologies--I lifted this--it is significant work.
Andrei Illarionov, NATO Parliamentary Assembly, Vilnius, May 31st, 2014
Play video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8ISQpbfoBI#t=484
Andrei Illarionov (Андрей Илларионов), Senior fellow at the Cato Institute's Center for Global Liberty and Prosperity, Washington, DC. NATO Parliamentary Assembly, Spring session, Economics and?
01:10:15
Added on 4/06/2014
3,674 views
Andrei Illarionov, who was the chief economic adviser of Putin.
Illarionov also served as the president?s personal representative (sherpa) in the G-8 (G-7now, in fact).
He is one of Russia?s most brilliant advocates of an open society and democratic capitalism.
Illarionov received his Ph.D. from St. Petersburg University in 1987.
Now he is a senior fellow at the Cato Institute?s Center for Global Liberty and Prosperity.
It doesn't mean I listen to all what he says without analizing it, and without any doubt that this is the highest truth; yet most of his comments and also political and economical predictions, seems quite reasonable and trustworthy- and most interesting.
http://aillarionov.livejournal.com/
"First point. You may hear statements that this is ?the Ukrainian crisis? or that this is ?the crisis in Ukraine?. It is incorrect. It is neither ?the crisis in Ukraine?, nor ?the Ukrainian crisis?. This is not an internal affair of Ukraine. This is a war. This is the Russian-Ukrainian war. To be correct, this is the Mr Putin?s war against Ukraine. And this war is only an introductory chapter of a much larger event which can be and actually already has been called ?War?, ?World War?, ?the Fourth World War?. I?ll try to elaborate this later. It is not my choice of picking this particular term. It is the term that is being used by the Kremlin propaganda machine ? the Fourth World War being waged now by Russia against the rest of the world."
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17681.msg369038#msg369038
For those that seem to think that black is white if they say so--- it is past time you looked at what is being said by a guy whose qualification to speak on the topic is of the highest order-- not some argumentative fool like too many on the forum.
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Pro-Russian seperatists shoot down a transport aircraft near Luhansk,killing 40 Ukrainian Paratroopers and 9 Air Force personnel on board.
A powerful explosive device has been found near the office of the Ukrainian President and has been destroyed.
The Pro-Russian fanboys/fangirls on here will no doubt try and deflect these incidents and blame the West....fools :rolleyes:
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more...
(http://img.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_1484w/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2014/06/13/Foreign/Images/2014-06-13T151700Z_01_MAR12_RTRIDSP_3_UKRAINE-CRISIS-MARIUPOL-10388.jpg?uuid=4ujK0vMTEeORTB-9BhTi1A)
Residents look over destroyed vehicles at the site of fighting in the eastern Ukrainian port city of Mariupol on June 13. Ukrainian forces reclaimed the city from pro-Russian separatists in heavy fighting Friday.
KIEV, Ukraine — In the biggest single loss of life since Ukraine started battling pro-Russian separatists, rebels shot down a military transport plane early Saturday morning as it was landing in Luhansk, killing all 49 people aboard.
Rebels using an anti-aircraft weapon and large-caliber machine gun downed the Ilyushin-76, according to a statement by the Defense Ministry. The statement said the aircraft, which was carrying equipment and food as well as military personnel who were being flown in as part of a routine rotation, was approaching the city airport in Luhansk, a separatist stronghold. While the rebels control most of the city, the army has control of the airport.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/pro-russian-rebels-shoot-down-large-ukrainian-transport-plane-killing-dozens/2014/06/14/67e673e2-f391-11e3-914c-1fbd0614e2d4_story.html
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Another link
http://euromaidanpr.com/2014/06/14/world-war-vi-statement-made-by-a-illarionov-at-the-nato-parliamentary-assembly/#more-11993
it is MUST READ.
Putin’s goal? To make Russians and Ukrainians Kill Each Other
Putin’s goal? To make russians and ukrainians kill each other. He is in dire need of a big, big pile of dead bodies.
http://euromaidanpr.com/2014/03/05/putins-goal-to-make-russians-and-ukrainians-kill-each-other/
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Just a friendly reminder. The people posting here are people, not governments, and to my knowledge have no direct input into government actions. No need for hostilities, it's just a waste of time and will have absolutely no impact on anything except your blood pressure.
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Yes, you're right that I sympathise With Russia in all this. Simply because it's right and I'm sick of the western hipocracy and war- mongering that might very well bring us the final war which every sane person realize will be the end of us all, except the crazies in Washington and their minions in Europe.
So is the western war mongering worse that the Russian war mongering.
Are the Washington crazies worse than the Russian crazies that you admire?
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So is the western war mongering worse that the Russian war mongering.
Are the Washington crazies worse than the Russian crazies that you admire?
In this case yes, because they're meddling in Russia's backyard. Besides, how many Russian troops are deployed outside Russia? The US have deployments in 130 countries, much more than half the world.
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In this case yes, because they're meddling in Russia's backyard.
America learned how to do that from Russia. From the spread of communism all the way to Cuba, America took steps to reverse the process. Putin should not be crying about other nations getting involved in other nations affairs. They are the worst violators.
how many Russian troops are deployed outside Russia? The US have deployments in 130 countries, much more than half the world.
Russian troops are occupying Georgia and Ukraine in a hostile manner. They are in Moldova and encouraging citizens there to break up the country. Russian troops are in a few other FSU nations. They were invited in those nations but ask Ukraine how that worked out for them.
I can't verify America has deployments in 130 countries but in most countries, they have been invited in. Most recently, in Poland, the Baltics nations and the Philippines. This would not have happened if it weren't for China and Russia having goals of conquest. Based on America's latest moves, I don't see any nation inviting Russian and Chinese troops onto their land. One can claim America entered Iraq, Libya, and Afghanistan aggressively but the majority of people living there wanted that and America doesn't have the intent of owning their land as Russia wants to do in Ukraine. If the people in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya, were motivated, they could be as successful as West Germany and Japan within a few decades after war and regime change. Name one country Russia has influenced that benefited their people and are a success economically?
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In this case yes, because they're meddling in Russia's backyard. Besides, how many Russian troops are deployed outside Russia? The US have deployments in 130 countries, much more than half the world.
Come on 'meddling'?
Actually, over 150 countries. At the behest of their respective governments.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_deployments
deployed in more than 150 countries around the world, with approximately 160,000 of its active-duty personnel serving outside the United States and its territories and an additional 117,000 deployed in various contingency operations. US troops are spread across the globe...
I am not aware of any US troops deployed in Ukraine or Russia.
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In this case yes, because they're meddling in Russia's backyard. Besides, how many Russian troops are deployed outside Russia? The US have deployments in 130 countries, much more than half the world.
Aw Lawrdie! You've really done it this time. >:(
Too much logic for this thread and all you've really accomplished is incite folks to counter and post western media articles, complete with *bold titling* and a *must read* remark at the bottom. If that isn't enough, it'll also be countered with information from sites like UkraineInvestigation.com citing it'll *explain everything*.
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Come on 'meddling'?
Actually, over 150 countries. At the behest of their respective governments.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_deployments
Aw Lawrdie! You've really done it this time. >:(
Too much logic for this thread and all you've really accomplished is incite folks to counter and post eastern media articles, complete with *bold titling* and a *must read* remark at the bottom. If that isn't enough, it'll also be countered with information from sites like Russiantelevision.com citing it'll *explain everything*.
Damn I'm smart! Productive debating at it's best.
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I am not aware of any US troops deployed in Ukraine or Russia.
Actually they have send a small batch of advisors to USA this week to help train the UA forces.
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Aw Lawrdie! You've really done it this time. >:(
Too much logic for this thread and all you've really accomplished is incite folks to counter and post eastern media articles, complete with *bold titling* and a *must read* remark at the bottom. If that isn't enough, it'll also be countered with information from sites like Russiantelevision.com citing it'll *explain everything*.
Damn I'm smart! Productive debating at it's best.
What is funny is the more you mimic others the more intelligent you sound. I find it much better than your usual boring stories that are disguised as some special ed learning lesson.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gogx9ijtFqY
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...I am not aware of any US troops deployed in Ukraine or Russia.
I would agree in general terms, but I'm sure that there are military personnel attached to the respective embassies in Kyiv and Moscow.
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What is funny is the more you mimic others the more intelligent you sound.
Only GQ fans could find my mimicking him intelligent. You guys are real MOB'ers. Just posting in your guy's style makes me feel dirty but it's the only way to help you guys see yourself in the mirror. The first step to recovery and growing up is to admit you have a problem.
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Only GQ fans could find my mimicking him intelligent. You guys are real MOB'ers. Just posting in your guy's style makes me feel dirty but it's the only way to help you guys see yourself in the mirror. The first step to recovery and growing up is to admit you have a problem.
:ROFL:
...
Here's an interesting website that explains things. I'm sure the truth will come out the Ukrainian armed forces didn't unleash those missiles at the government building.....
http://ukraineinvestigation.com/ukrainian-plane-attack-state-administration-luhansk/
(http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag162/matteo251/svodoba_zpsbce39b3b.jpg) (http://s1368.photobucket.com/user/matteo251/media/svodoba_zpsbce39b3b.jpg.html)
Awww 'lil BillyB, I hope I didn't rattle you too much and I realize I was doing it solely at your expense, but to come here and present svodoba's website as your dependable source of information and expect anyone to find an ounce of credibility in anything you say, is downright laughable, man.
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Just posting in your guy's style makes me feel dirty but it's the only way to help you guys see yourself in the mirror. The first step to recovery and growing up is to admit you have a problem.
Ha, The whole "I'm going to do what I hate back at you to teach you a lesson" is classic passive aggressiveness. It isn't the first time I've seen this type of behavior from you Billy and it's not healthy.
You certainly do think of yourself as some type of "teacher" which is just down right funny. It does explain some of your life choices, though.
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It works! Posting dirty seems to get people worked up, including those who post dirty. Classic MOB'rs who have to put people down thinking it makes them look good. You guys should start a poll with you vs. some of your least favorite posters to find out who people feel is more likeable and intelligent. Truth will hurt but only after you learn the truth, you can begin grow and post intelligent like men instead of boys.
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I almost forgot, it looks like Billy also suffers from "delusions of granduer". Looking at him holding a sword pretending to be some kind of whatever and thinking he is some type of teacher it's painfully obvious. No wonder some guys prefer inexperienced women in order to continue their delusions.
The dude is telling us we are little boys while he holds a little sword up in his picture. Dude, stop being so insecure and asking for popularity polls. I already told you before, the more unpopular I am the happier I shall be. Hilarious stuff, Billy.
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I already told you before, the more unpopular I am the happier I shall be.
MOB'ers say that. You go on pretending you're happy. When you guys debate like men, people will stop treating you like boys. Make sense? Don't get upset and get your panties all bunched up if from now on I debate you and GQ the way you guys debate others.
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Debate?!? You're a clod in a box, Billyboy.
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Debate?!? You're a clod in a box, Billyboy.
As I said, Delusions of Grandeur. UkraineInvestigations is debating in his world.
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can we stick to the topic please
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can we stick to the topic please
Sure can do. The invasion of Ukraine (not Russian) is not that of the old times. This is an invasion to encircle Russia which along With China are the only real threats to US world hegenomy. It's aim, that started With Clinton who broke the promise Bush 1 did With Russia not to go into Russia's backyard With NATO, is to either scare Russia to silence and obedience or start the Third world war. Same With China which is now surrounded by US bases of which exist in 151 countries, a thousand bases in all. And still many ordinary Americans don't believe their country are an empire!
Ukraine is just a small piece in this play and will be looted by special interests, the monopoly men expect something back from their campaign contributions and Ukraine has great Agricultural and gas Resources and it's Public will be forever indebted to all the economic "aid" given to it's "Liberation".
I personally strongly dislike ANY country forcing it's will upon others. It would be no different if it were Russia or China in this position, but the reality is that none on Earth can oppose USA militarily as they don't have that kind of position. Now, every empire destruct itself and USA will be no different. I don't see it happening militarily or by terrorists but rather economically. Should a New empire after that emerge in my Lifetime (very unlikely) I should oppose it just as much.
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Bush 1
Speaking of Bush 1, it was his birthday a few days ago and Putin sent him a birthday present. Putin respects strength and Bush projected more strength than Obama. I don't think Putin will ever send Obama a birthday present.
many ordinary Americans don't believe their country are an empire!
I'm one of those Americans. Unlike in the past where an empire takes and occupies other nations by force, America is different simply because we're invited into nations to protect them instead of owning them. If a nation doesn't want us in their country anymore, they can say goodbye and we will leave.
The world was a more violent and scarier place in the past. When America falls, we will return to that.
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UkraineInvestigations is debating in his world.
What is your problem with UkraineInvestigations?
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What do you define as Nazi?
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Speaking of Bush 1, it was his birthday a few days ago and Putin sent him a birthday present. Putin respects strength and Bush projected more strength than Obama. I don't think Putin will ever send Obama a birthday present.
Rather, Putin knows his history and Bush 1 showed constraint which later Presidents have lacked. Lying is not a show of strenght.
I'm one of those Americans. Unlike in the past where an empire takes and occupies other nations by force, America is different simply because we're invited into nations to protect them instead of owning them. If a nation doesn't want us in their country anymore, they can say goodbye and we will leave.
Then, if you're open for New information, you should check out Perkins "Confessions of an Economic hit man". That should Cure you of any grand notions of the US being there for other countries just to "help", free of charge and willing to go home afterwards. Hahahaha, I'm sorry, I can't contain my laughter ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqIHKWd9rSc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqIHKWd9rSc)
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Then, if you're open for New information, you should check out Perkins "Confessions of an Economic hit man". That should Cure you of any grand notions of the US being there for other countries just to "help", free of charge and willing to go home afterwards. Hahahaha, I'm sorry, I can't contain my laughter ;)
If you're open to old information, you should read some of my posts throughout these debates. I clearly stated one reason America grew in strength is because we helped nations in trouble, particularly in WW1 and WW2, and when we supply security for nations in modern times, we should benefit from it economically. Why do you feel that's actions of an evil empire? If you think America is obligated to do this for free, you're going to make me laugh.
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If you're open to old information, you should read some of my posts throughout these debates. I clearly stated one reason America grew in strength is because we helped nations in trouble, particularly in WW1 and WW2, and when we supply security for nations in modern times, we should benefit from it economically. Why do you feel that's actions of an evil empire? If you think America is obligated to do this for free, you're going to make me laugh.
WW1, you should read the book "Empire of Debt" in which it was stated that this was the entry point of the American empire and because the US joined this pointless war, it prolonged it With it's needless suffering. WW2, yes, great that the US helped us from the Nazis but before that many US Companies did great business With the Nazis and underwrote the importance of the Soviet's role. It was Russian forces that came in from the North in my own country of Norway and drove the Nazis South, for example. Many in America didn't want to join and rather welcomed the Third Reich. Rooseveldt felt otherwise and I'm pretty sure he's not a popular President among the RWD Republican crowd who hate Russia and Putin With all their hearts.
Contrary to popular western belief however, of Russian double-dealings and empire wishes, they did as was agreed, they withdrew when the enemy was defeated. But still, we're supposed to see them as soooooo Dangerous?
Security from what, exactly? What are you talking about here? Look at the polls around the world, when they ask who is the biggest threat to world Peace and the majority answer USA. Just face it, USA has the biggest guns and it's alleys in Europe does it's bidding out of fear. It's quite simple really and no need to laugh out of ignorance.
PS. and in the short while for you to answer this you didn't watch the linked video. I should think it more valuable to watch an interview With a former member of the intelligence apparatus than old post from you Billy.
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many US Companies did great business With the Nazis
Are these businesses supposed to predict the future and refuse business with the Nazis? I own a business so am I supposed to refuse business to someone or a group just because I suspect they will kill somebody?
underwrote the importance of the Soviet's role.
I think Stalin did a good job doing that himself. First he joined Hitler to make the war worse than it was supposed to be and then needed America's help with supplies and weapons to counter Hitler. For those who do not know, just a few years ago, Putin made the last payment to America to finally pay off Russia's WW2 debt.
Look at the polls around the world, when they ask who is the biggest threat to world Peace and the majority answer USA. Just face it, USA has the biggest guns and it's alleys in Europe does it's bidding out of fear. It's quite simple really and no need to laugh out of ignorance.
Ask? Actions are stronger than words and most nations(your statistics) of the world have invited America to park our troops on their land. By claiming those nations do it out of fear is silly.
PS. and in the short while for you to answer this you didn't watch the linked video. I should think it more valuable to watch an interview With a former member of the intelligence apparatus than old post from you Billy.
I don't care to watch the video. There's absolutely nothing in that video that's going to shock me and make me open my eyes to believe in what you believe in. I don't read conspiracy theory sites or subscribe to the idea there is a New World Order that is being created. You and the guys in the video are free to believe America is the biggest threat to peace in the World. Putin and China needs more people like you to pick up rifles to fight America so they may succeed and bring you the world of peace the way you see fit. I don't want to be a part of their world so now you understand why there will always be conflict?
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(http://media-cache-cd0.pinimg.com/originals/1b/e1/51/1be1511b5113b2b2b2d785dcf0f28ba6.jpg)
Another man Putin is accusing of being a Nazi.
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/318559373615336980/
Is it legal to be Ukrainian?
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Sure can do. The invasion of Ukraine (not Russian) is not that of the old times. This is an invasion to encircle Russia which along With China are the only real threats to US world hegenomy. It's aim, that started With Clinton who broke the promise Bush 1 did With Russia not to go into Russia's backyard With NATO, is to either scare Russia to silence and obedience or start the Third world war. Same With China which is now surrounded by US bases of which exist in 151 countries, a thousand bases in all. And still many ordinary Americans don't believe their country are an empire!
Ukraine is just a small piece in this play and will be looted by special interests, the monopoly men expect something back from their campaign contributions and Ukraine has great Agricultural and gas Resources and it's Public will be forever indebted to all the economic "aid" given to it's "Liberation".
I personally strongly dislike ANY country forcing it's will upon others. It would be no different if it were Russia or China in this position, but the reality is that none on Earth can oppose USA militarily as they don't have that kind of position. Now, every empire destruct itself and USA will be no different. I don't see it happening militarily or by terrorists but rather economically. Should a New empire after that emerge in my Lifetime (very unlikely) I should oppose it just as much.
This point about the NATO moving into Russia's backyard is a valid point and it appears the USA broke that promise long ago....That point may get downplayed here, but I believe it is a relevant factor in why things are the way they are now....
Unless we are getting tangible benefits, we *the US* should be pulling back our troops and military bases. We are under no obligation to clean up the world's messes, but I might not object if it results in a greater direct benefit to regular people, than it costs. If anything it appears the world is in a huge uproar in many places right now and the American public mostly wants us to sit it out.
Fathertime!
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This point about the NATO moving into Russia's backyard is a valid point and it appears the USA broke that promise long ago....That point may get downplayed here, but I believe it is a relevant factor in why things are the way they are now....
Some people will say it wasn't a binding agreement. Lots of promises get broke on both sides including those with binding agreements. One broken promise by the US didn't lead to this current situation. Russia always had a contingency plan if Ukraine ever left their sphere of influence. In the past when Ukraine comes close to electing a pro Western President, the candidates get poisoned or imprisoned. Putin always has his "gas" disputes with when a pro Western President is in power. This is the 3rd time Putin threatened to turn off the gas in the last 8 years.
Putin claims his problem is with NATO approaching his doorstep but it seems he wants to conquer Ukraine and possibly Moldova. In Putin's Russia, he brings his doorstep to NATO.
People have the right to hire any security company to protect their homes. Thieves shouldn't complain. Nations have the same right. Russia shouldn't complain. If Russia wants to get into the business of security, they should earn a reputation of being trustworthy and reliable. Ukraine once trusted Russia for it's security. Didn't work out too well.
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The Ukrainian army is preparing to dislodge Kremlin-backed separatists from Donetsk and Luhansk, the provincial capitals of two oblasts where 15 percent of Ukraine's population lives. The Interior Ministry's announcement that Kyiv will reassert its authority comes after the recapture by government forces of four cities across the region in recent days.
At a briefing on July 7, advisor to Ukraine’s interior minister Anton Gerashchenko outlined further plans for the government’s anti-terrorist operation and said normal life was returning to liberated Sloviansk, with all necessary services in the city set to resume in due course.
“Whoever remembers Grozny after its liberation by the Russian army, it was nothing more than a desert. Sloviansk, as you can see, is complete and has not been bombed. The people met our soldiers with open arms, crying from happiness,” a visibly confident Gerashchenko said, gesturing to a video showing an aerial view of the city following its recapture.
A video taken from a Ukrainian army helicopter showing Sloviansk after its liberation from rebel control.
According to Gerashchenko, Sloviansk’s railway station and post office will begin operating within 24 hours while supermarkets were being stocked up and food brought in for local inhabitants. Work is also being done to reconnect the water system as soon as possible, he added.
Pictures have been emerging in recent days of supplies arriving in Sloviansk, with volunteers distributing food and medical aid to locals standing in long lines behind the delivery trucks.
All citizens in the town are meanwhile being questioned on their involvement and possible complicity with the actions of rebel forces, Gerashchenko said.
“We turn to those living in surrounding towns and villages to inform us of those they know are taking part in terrorist activities. We will not let one person with blood on their hands go free,” he said.
Gerashchenko said the regional capitals of Donetsk and Luhansk had been cordoned off and all those wanting to leave the cities were being checked for weapons. Peaceful citizens not carrying arms were being allowed to exit freely, he added.
When asked by the Kyiv Post about the inhabitants’ attitude towards advancing army forces, he said not more than 25% of the local population supports the separatists, and assigned responsibility for that minority’s views to “total” Russian propaganda.
“We are working on turning Russian channels off and Ukrainian channels back on across the region. The people’s mood is shifting – they have seen rebels robbing businessmen and witnessed widespread looting by their fighters,” he said, adding that 270 cars have been stolen from showrooms in Donetsk.
The army has reclaimed control of several border crossings, Gerashchenko added, with only a few left to take back.
“The border is under fire-cover, meaning if any kind of military equipment enters from the Russian side our scouts will alert us and we will destroy it from the air or using artillery fire. I think in the next few days this problem will be solved,” he said.
A map from July 6 showing recent gains made by Ukrainian army forces.
Gerashchenko’s statement comes in the wake of a string of Ukrainian army victories, which has raised morale among the troops and brought a tone of optimism to Ukrainian media coverage. The most symbolic victory in Ukraine's military offensive was the recapture of the rebel stronghold of Sloviansk, which returned to government control on July 5.
Since then Ukrainian forces have reportedly taken three more cities – Druzhkivka, Kramatorsk and Artemivsk – and images have surfaced online of the Ukrainian flag being hosted above the cities’ administration buildings.
Despite their recent losses, the rebels still hold the two regional capitals, where they have regrouped following a series of defeats elsewhere. Thousands have reportedly fled in recent days and weeks from Donetsk, a city with an official population of 1 million people, fearing its transformation into the next flashpoint in the three month-long military conflict. Many local businesses have also closed.
Meanwhile, rebel forces continue to attack government positions. On July 7 separatists blew up three bridges overlooking roads leading into Donetsk, in an apparent attempt to obstruct the army's access to the regional capital.
On the same day nine Ukrainian border guards were killed and 112 injured after a rebel attack, the deputy head of the State Border Service said at a press conference in Kyiv. One person has reportedly been flown to Israel for specialist treatment.
A column of separatist fighters marching into Donetsk following their retreat from former stronghold Sloviansk.
A rally in support of the rebels in central Donetsk on July 6 drew a crowd of around 1,000 people, according to witnesses, a comparatively small proportion of the regional capital’s inhabitants.
"We will begin a real partisan war around the whole perimeter of Donetsk,” Pavel Gubarev, leader of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic, told the crowd. “We will drown these wretches in blood.” Gubarev however warned that without Russian aid rebel forces are unlikely to succeed.
Speaking on Ukrainian TV, Ukraine’s richest man and Donetsk native Rinat Akhmetov called for the government to exercise restraint in its urban offensive against rebel forces. “Donetsk must not be bombed. Donbas must not be bombed,” he said in an interview with the “Ukraina” TV channel on July 6.
Kyiv Post staff writer Matthew Luxmoore can be reached at mjluxmoore@gmail.com and on Twitter at @mjluxmoore.
http://www.kyivpost.com/conten...ers-pace-354990.html
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzDirP1oReU
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Shadow,
I watched your video. Horrible. That is what happens in war. People get killed. I am terribly sorry for their losses and I grieve for their families.
I would like an honest answer from you. Do you really believe that the majority of people in the Donbass region want separation from Ukraine and affiliation with Russia? If so, on what do you base your premise?
When I first went to Eastern Ukraine, I was confused by most of the signs being in Ukrainian and most of the people speaking Russian. Many of the older people there did not speak Ukrainian. So I asked: Taxi drivers, hotel employees, even when I donated my time for civic purposes, I asked those people as well. My Russian is not very strong, but almost to a person they all said that they were Ukrainian first. (I have never been to Donbass, only to Kharkov. But I am told that the response there is similar.)
I still believe that the entire conflict in Eastern Ukraine is contrived. What did it for me is when the invasion of Kharkov happened and, instead of taking the Mayor's offices, they didn't know the right building and took the Opera House instead. It told me, right then and there, that such an operation was not being done by local citizens, but by outsiders brought in to agitate. If the insurgents had even one local citizen with them, they would have known the difference. Hell, even I know it, having seen both buildings myself.
All surveys that I have seen shows me that the number of local citizens who would rather be associated with Russia is probably between 25 and 30 percent. That means that a minority in a region is trying to overrun the majority, against the wishes of the country as a whole.
The separatists consistently claim that the reason for disassociation is that Kyiv is run by Nazis (who control the government). You can see the repeated imagery in the above video. The far right parties received less than five percent of the vote in the Presidential Election. I believe that this one fact, that Ukraine elected someone who is seen as moderate and that the government shows stability, demonstrated to Russia that Ukraine is not a plumb ripe for the picking.
A bit of perspective: In Netherlands, the Freedom Party, ultra, far right (in my book) had an 11 percent favorable rating in 2011. Now imagine you have an agitating force with big dollars and a military to back it up begin stoking that minority. And further, because your country is next door to the aggressor, the aggressor floods the airwaves with news that to be Dutch you are a whore or a whore son. (Don't tell me that this hasn't happened in Ukraine. Anyone with a VK account can read it for themselves, as I have.) Then, in your neighborhood, people you knew and trusted begin coming out and spitting on your national flag and coming together to make irrational statements about your government.
We can't imagine what these people are going through. Hopefully we will never have to.
My own personal belief is that the whole affair is going to backfire. The Ukrainians already hate Putin. The separatists will, ultimately, consider Putin a traitor because he failed to back them up. The Russians, by a great majority, consider the Ukrainians to be sub-standard. Even though they are neighbors, there will be no cozy future for these two countries.
So getting back to my original question, Shadow: Do you believe that the majority of people in Donbass really want separation from Ukraine? Because, that ultimately, would be the basis for revolution.
I do believe that the majority of the country wanted a closer affiliation with the West. No matter what other people on the forum may say, I believe it to be true. There was a visceral movement in that direction, regardless of prodding by the United States or the EU. It was there when I lived in Mykolaiv last summer. Too many Ukrainians have seen how successful other Eastern European countries can be when embracing Western standards. When Yanu. spurned the EU affiliation, he went directly against the desires of his people. Even as Maidan was just beginning, I stated on this forum that I thought it would end in the removal of the government.
Without Russia's military intervention, the script is already written for the end game. There will be no 'Novorossiya'. And prospects for an overt invasion (as opposed to the clandestine invasion we've been watching) diminish every day that the Ukrainian forces take more ground back from the separatists.
The Kyiv Post has a section in it called 'The Russian War'. That is what the Ukrainian people are now calling this conflict. Simply put, they believe that Russia is trying to punish the country for turning towards the West. It is a simple conclusion, really. If you get past the subterfuge and all of the propaganda (on both sides) you can see clearly. Occam's razor holds it to be true.
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Shadow,
I watched your video. Horrible. That is what happens in war. People get killed. I am terribly sorry for their losses and I grieve for their families.
I would like an honest answer from you. Do you really believe that the majority of people in the Donbass region want separation from Ukraine and affiliation with Russia? If so, on what do you base your premise?
I will try to answer your question as truthfully as I have information.
When Yanukovich was ousted, the people in the area mostly had zero interest in separating from Ukraine and aligning with Russia, or beoming Russian. Their main concern was that they were no longer represented in the government of their country, and this was their ground for protests.
These protests took form in seizing government buildings as wel as chasing off the olicharch friends of the new government that were appointed as new mayors or governors.
What followed was violence that exceeded the violence Yanukovich used.
This meant that the people felt their government turned against them, especially because the use of Russian as official language was removed, and some (at the time minor) government parties were voicing that all Russian speaking Ukrainians should be removed from Ukraine.
On top of that came the propaganda, from which parts have reached the Western world through RT, other even more wild stories were only spread locally.
As people felt betrayed by their government, they turned to help from the country that speaks their language: Russia. The events in Crimea gave them (false) hope to also be allowed to split off and join Russia.
Once the EU elections started campaigning (short before the elections in Ukraine) almost everything fell silent.
The people in Donbass area were attacked every now and then, but they did not make any steps towards progress or controlling terrain. As soon as the EU election was over, the Ukrainian election came in sight.
The Donbass area made the mistake of being passive in their separatism. The held ground in cities, but not more than that. The elections themselves were not held in the cities of Donetsk, Lugansk or Slaviansk. But people were allowed to go voting, which by itself was surprising.
After the elections, the new president decided to take his momentum and launch an offensive. The separatists have little organization, and due to the longevity are running out of money as well as power.
Right now most of them feel betrayed by both their own government and Russia. To make Novorossiya independent will need a lot of battles, and would make the area even more poor as it is today. People are more or less in a state as during the Holodomor where they con trust nobody and have the choice between dying or a fate that might be worse.
I hope this more or less answers your question.
As for my part, due to being part of some large groups on social networks, I have direct contact with many people in Russia and all parts of Ukraine. Mostly I have been fighting propaganda stories, and that includes pro-Russian propaganda. Some people there believe I am a USA puppet.
Also I have been following developments very closely, usually I got the news on any major story long before any media reported it. But as a true Shadow I am mainly observing and trying to find a way forward for all of Ukraine.
My first warning to the separatists was that Russia got what they wanted with Crimea, and the best they could hope for was some autonomy. Unfortunately they did not believe me.
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Excellent answer, and I thank you. Where do you think the majority lies?
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I will try to answer your question as truthfully as I have information.
When Yanukovich was ousted, the people in the area mostly had zero interest in separating from Ukraine and aligning with Russia, or beoming Russian. Their main concern was that they were no longer represented in the government of their country, and this was their ground for protests.
No, there were no protests on Yanukovych's ouster. In fact, in a poll the next month, 55% of residents in the region stated they intended to vote in the presidential election.
These protests took form in seizing government buildings as wel as chasing off the olicharch friends of the new government that were appointed as new mayors or governors.
Many weren't happy with the Kyiv appointments, but the seizing of buildings did not occur until later.
What followed was violence that exceeded the violence Yanukovich used.
That is not accurate.
This meant that the people felt their government turned against them, especially because the use of Russian as official language was removed, and some (at the time minor) government parties were voicing that all Russian speaking Ukrainians should be removed from Ukraine.
That is not accurate. The Rada proposed repealing Russian as a regional language. Russian never had official language status in Ukraine. The bill proposed by the Rada was vetoed by the acting president. But that is what inflamed tensions in the region.
As people felt betrayed by their government, they turned to help from the country that speaks their language: Russia. The events in Crimea gave them (false) hope to also be allowed to split off and join Russia.
Once the EU elections started campaigning (short before the elections in Ukraine) almost everything fell silent.
No, there is evidence that operatives were in the region very early, as they were in other regions, such as Kharkiv and Dnipropetrovsk. It was not on the request of locals. The Vostok Battalion did not appear in Ukraine on the request of Ukrainians. Further, at its height, the separatists had the support of only half the population in Donetsk, less in Luhansk.
The people in Donbass area were attacked every now and then, but they did not make any steps towards progress or controlling terrain. As soon as the EU election was over, the Ukrainian election came in sight.
No, they were not. That is why the terrorists became so entrenched. The acting president did not send troops to fight, although troops were in the region. In Slovyansk, for example, the locals fed Ukrainian troops.
The Donbass area made the mistake of being passive in their separatism. The held ground in cities, but not more than that. The elections themselves were not held in the cities of Donetsk, Lugansk or Slaviansk. But people were allowed to go voting, which by itself was surprising.
No, that is inaccurate. In Donetsk, for example, most voting was prohibited, and terrorists destroyed ballots and voting stations.
After the elections, the new president decided to take his momentum and launch an offensive. The separatists have little organization, and due to the longevity are running out of money as well as power.
He waited quite some time to take the offensive, and only after 29 troops were killed and 69 wounded during a unilateral ceasefire.
Right now most of them feel betrayed by both their own government and Russia. To make Novorossiya independent will need a lot of battles, and would make the area even more poor as it is today. People are more or less in a state as during the Holodomor where they con trust nobody and have the choice between dying or a fate that might be worse.
The majority of the populace in the area (which is relatively small, it was never more than a triangle of 200 km on each side) do not feel betrayed. Some support the terrorists, but most do not.
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Also an event which you can say led to "false hope" is the semblance of Russian military on the Ukrainian border.
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http://youtu.be/lzDirP1oReU
Kiev didn't do this. The US did...
It's the same strategy used in Serbia, in Iraq, in Africa et al...bomb the civilian population silly to curb your enemy from fighting. Why do you think we sent John Brennar there for?
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@Boethius:IF you believe from Canada to know better as the people involved so be it. I will just tell that I disagree, and that probably the information one of us has is false.
As I wrote my piece from memory and not by checking all facts, I may be inaccurate about some time points. But not about the statements of feelings from the people, as there is a direct line.
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Shadow,
I have not communicated much with my friends in Eastern Ukraine since the events started. (Events in my personal life have moved me away from Ukraine and participation on this Board.) You present an honest, thinking man's view of a separatist. It is valuable to the forum. For the most part, once the buildings were seized in the Eastern areas, the occupants were mostly from the population. But the original agitators who came in from Russia to organize - and in many cases - pay for participation - were from Russia. Anyone who followed the mercenary types from Crimea saw the immediate migration to the Eastern areas.
People believe what they want to believe. The people you may have talked to might not think that Russia or the Russian military and GRU played an important part in instigating and activating the insurrection, but there really is no doubt in even a casual observer's mind that they were and are there.
You never did directly answer my question, which was the purpose of the original post. In your opinion (I won't hold you to it) what percentage of the people in Donbass do you feel are really behind the separatists?
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No, there were no protests on Yanukovych's ouster. In fact, in a poll the next month, 55% of residents in the region stated they intended to vote in the presidential election.
Many weren't happy with the Kyiv appointments, but the seizing of buildings did not occur until later.
That is not accurate.
That is not accurate. The Rada proposed repealing Russian as a regional language. Russian never had official language status in Ukraine. The bill proposed by the Rada was vetoed by the acting president. But that is what inflamed tensions in the region.
No, there is evidence that operatives were in the region very early, as they were in other regions, such as Kharkiv and Dnipropetrovsk. It was not on the request of locals. The Vostok Battalion did not appear in Ukraine on the request of Ukrainians. Further, at its height, the separatists had the support of only half the population in Donetsk, less in Luhansk.
No, they were not. That is why the terrorists became so entrenched. The acting president did not send troops to fight, although troops were in the region. In Slovyansk, for example, the locals fed Ukrainian troops.
No, that is inaccurate. In Donetsk, for example, most voting was prohibited, and terrorists destroyed ballots and voting stations.
He waited quite some time to take the offensive, and only after 29 troops were killed and 69 wounded during a unilateral ceasefire.
The majority of the populace in the area (which is relatively small, it was never more than a triangle of 200 km on each side) do not feel betrayed. Some support the terrorists, but most do not.
+1
I confirm all these informations.
Except some minors mistakes on the beginning (wanting to abort russian language and compel ukrainian) the ukrainians have done not so bad for the moment.
The fog has gone away now and the origin of the separatist mouvement cannot be clearest : a bunch of elite and intelligence russian forces, mercenaries and local paid beween 500 $ and 1500$ depending per month depending their rank.
Whan you have removed all these idiots from the few cities where they have compelled an insurrection, you will see how fast any willing of being part of Russia will vanish.
The only problem are the civilian casualities and the russian propaganda (part of the battle plan) because we know how these casualites can push people in extreme actions.
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Shadow, most of what I posted is a matter of public record.
Yanukovych's government eventually sent the Berkut in to beat protesters, and to shoot them. I do not deny Praviy Sekhtor supporters were in the East, but they weren't sent there by the Ukrainian government.
The feelings of those you know are not supported by polls taken up to the end of March (thereafter, the situation on the ground was too unstable to conduct polls). They are anecdotal, and will depend on the circles you travel in. My husband knows people in both Lugansk and Donetsk who have different views. Now, granted, polls may be inaccurate, however, there has never been majority support for Russia, nor a turning to Russia.
My statement on the language laws is accurate. Russian was recognized in that region, and nationally, as a regional language. It did not have official language status in Ukraine, although the regional status was a path to eventual official status. But yes, I agree, the attempt to remove the regional language status is what provoked the crisis.
Finally, bear in mind that the cities in the Dontesk and Luhansk oblasts are predominantly Russian speaking, but the regions surrounding those cities are not always. It is more of a mixture of Russian and Ukrainian (surzhik), and many in those surrounding regions view themselves as Ukrainian, not Russian.
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The only problem are the civilian casualities and the russian propaganda (part of the battle plan) because we know how these casualites can push people in extreme actions.
Tym's buddies are finding more ways to profit...
http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/07/06/hacked-facebook-correspondence-indicates-a-burgeoning-trade-in-organs-of-ukrainian-soldiers/comment-page-1/
http://www.unian.net/politics/936687-pereplyunut-gebbelsa-rossiyskiy-kanal-snyal-syujet-o-tom-kak-vlasenko-torguet-organami-cherez-facebook.html
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This is what many Russians believe about Ukraine and Ukrainians. This is also why so many Ukrainians wish to turn West, rather than East -
The Izborsky Club, a group of intellectuals and writers put together by Aleksandr Prokhanov to promote Russian nationalist and traditionalist views, clearly has had a major influence on Vladimir Putin’s thinking and policies, including his annexation of Crimea and support for the idea of “a Russian world.”
But now that Prokhanov and his even more notorious club member Aleksandr Dugin have complained to the “Wall Street Journal” about Putin’s current approach to Ukraine and about their loss of status and access, some may conclude that the Izborsky Club is becoming passé (online.wsj.com/articles/russian-nationalists-feel-let-down-by-kremlin-again-1404510139).
That Prokhanov, Dugin and their colleagues may have lost on this issue, however, should not obscure the influence they have had and are likely to continue to have on the way in which Putin and his entourage conceive the world and hence on the policies that he and they are likely to pursue.
Indeed, it may be the case that groups like the Izborsky Club in Russia, just like some think tanks in the West, are less important for their impact on specific policies, even policies as critical as Moscow’s approach to Ukraine has been than they are for that kind of broader but less specifically traceable influence they do exert.
That is certainly the implication of what Vitaly Averyanov, the director of the Moscow Institute of Dynamic Conservatism and a co-founder of the Izborsky Club, told a “Svobodnaya pressa” interviewer at the end of last week when asked about the influence of group (dynacon.ru/content/articles/3499/). . .
Asked about the widely-rumored links between the Izborsky Club and the actions of pro-Russian groups in eastern Ukraine, Averyanov said that “of course the Izborsky Club is not the author of the scenario of the rising in the Donbas. But a connection exists, a deep connection,” and Igor Strelkov is “a man of our direction.”
With regard to Ukraine, he said that “Ukraine is not a state: it is a buffer formation.” It is the product of the weakening of the Russian nation. And it is not a separate nation either – although he said one can create the simulacrum of a nation. “Give me the money and staff, and after 15 years, I will form a nation of Siberians which I can control,” Averyanov added.
The division of Ukraine is not an ethnic one but “a mental or civilizational one,” the specific “front” of the clash of civilizations in which the West is seeking to extend its sway over Russia. If the West wins in Ukraine, he argued, there is “a great probability” that it will extend this clash into Russia itself.
http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/07/08/russian-nationalist-group-connected-to-strelkov-says-ukraine-is-not-a-state/ (http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/07/08/russian-nationalist-group-connected-to-strelkov-says-ukraine-is-not-a-state/)
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@Boethius:IF you believe from Canada to know better as the people involved so be it. I will just tell that I disagree, and that probably the information one of us has is false.
As I wrote my piece from memory and not by checking all facts, I may be inaccurate about some time points. But not about the statements of feelings from the people, as there is a direct line.
Dude, if you are interested PM me and I'll give you the email of a Ukrainian living in Kharkiv who actually spent time in the Donbass region as an activist. At first she feared that Donetsk was lost to the Russians. Not anymore. She was one of many digging a trench to hold the Russian army advance.
She will gladly tell you you are full of kakashka.
I'm guessing that you are ultra-left in Netherlands. Nothing wrong with that in my book. ;)
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As you all may surmise by now, my inquiries were not to discredit Shadow, who contributes with a steady hand over many topics, but to bring to the forefront the issue that only a minority segment of the population in Donbass and Lugansk are in favor of separation. I would be further willing to surmise that the number of supporters of separation are dwindling as the heavyweights like Akhmetov have called for an end to the separatism.
The severely reduced numbers present at the pro-separatist rally held this weekend in Donetsk are reflective of the new realities. Putin is not coming to the rescue and those who have acted like thugs or terrorists over the past three months will face some type of justice.
While Russia may have gained popular support at home for its actions in Ukraine, it is a pyrrhic victory as such and the cost in diminished esteem in the Western world coupled with the absolute hatred felt by the great majority of Ukrainians will be felt by Putin's administration until he is out of office. It is a generational thing.
In a twisted fashion, I suppose, the Russian populace can take comfort in their new territory of Crimea and that Russia is once again a name to be feared in Eastern Europe. But I can assure you, even allies like Lukashenko are going through their security structures to see how far the FSB has penetrated. In short, not one country expects better treatment from Russia than Russia has given to Ukraine. That is Russia's new reality.
Once Poroshenko was elected and took office, it was difficult to maintain that the Nazis were running Kyiv. Even the most obstinate separatists remember that Poroshenko was a member of Yanukovych's cabinet.
Mendy did a cute thing in his journal at the start of the Eastern Region rebellion. He showed how happy people were, celebrating being Ukrainian in Donetsk only a year ago at one of the holidays. Then he compared that to the strife shown in the Eastern Region during the height of the conflict. It was a stark contrast of happiness versus despair.
While Putin temporarily maintains artificial popularity at home, Russia loses big time in the long term. My friends all know my love of Eastern Europe and, especially Russia. They cannot understand why Putin has chosen this course. It was said, early on, that there is no end where he comes out the ultimate winner. I have to agree with that analysis.
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(http://www.xoxol.org/putin/remember-this-chart-785x651.jpg)
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Putin is not coming to the rescue and those who have acted like thugs or terrorists over the past three months will face some type of justice.
Ukrainian rebels will face justice. Many of the Russian militia who crossed the border for money and duty to Russia will enter graves. By abandoning them, Putin won't have to pay them.
They cannot understand why Putin has chosen this course.
I don't understand why Putin hasn't done more. Opportunities like this don't come along often. Ukraine in a moment of weakness is ripe for the taking. Putin has showed his colors and then stop short? His neighbors are scared and motivated to get stronger. Purchases of American military equipment have gone up and American troops have been invited into more countries.
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I don't understand why Putin hasn't done more. Opportunities like this don't come along often. Ukraine in a moment of weakness is ripe for the taking. Putin has showed his colors and then stop short? His neighbors are scared and motivated to get stronger. Purchases of American military equipment have gone up and American troops have been invited into more countries.
Hey Billy, I think most everybody here misjudged what Putin was doing. I NEVER thought he was going to get mired in a quagmire of taking Ukraine...it would have been a bloody insurgency that he could never be done with....He got the freebie of Crimea...a very strategic piece....that was all he needed FOR NOW....There will be costs to his nations, but their also could be global gains.. obviously he has calculated or miscalculated that the benefits outweigh the costs....To this point, the costs are very low.
Fathertime!
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Shadow,
I have not communicated much with my friends in Eastern Ukraine since the events started. (Events in my personal life have moved me away from Ukraine and participation on this Board.) You present an honest, thinking man's view of a separatist. It is valuable to the forum. For the most part, once the buildings were seized in the Eastern areas, the occupants were mostly from the population. But the original agitators who came in from Russia to organize - and in many cases - pay for participation - were from Russia. Anyone who followed the mercenary types from Crimea saw the immediate migration to the Eastern areas.
People believe what they want to believe. The people you may have talked to might not think that Russia or the Russian military and GRU played an important part in instigating and activating the insurrection, but there really is no doubt in even a casual observer's mind that they were and are there.
You never did directly answer my question, which was the purpose of the original post. In your opinion (I won't hold you to it) what percentage of the people in Donbass do you feel are really behind the separatists?
As far as can tell around 70% is against the current government. That however does not mean they wish to join Russia, and within that 70% there will be mixed feelings with regard to the separatists.
In general you might expect a number of 40% who are fully engaged to fight for separation, 30% who just want better representation in the governmen.
As for the casual observer, they are mostly influenced by media. When I say that there is no doubt the US and EU played an important part in stopping the insurrection the same casual observer may deny this. Still I am sure that the influence of Russia is not much higher as that of the EU/US, and that if Russia would have wanted to take over the area it would have happened.
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Shadow, most of what I posted is a matter of public record.
Yanukovych's government eventually sent the Berkut in to beat protesters, and to shoot them. I do not deny Praviy Sekhtor supporters were in the East, but they weren't sent there by the Ukrainian government.
I do not deny some Russians were in Crimea, but they were not sent by the Russian government.
Equally valid statement.
The feelings of those you know are not supported by polls taken up to the end of March (thereafter, the situation on the ground was too unstable to conduct polls). They are anecdotal, and will depend on the circles you travel in. My husband knows people in both Lugansk and Donetsk who have different views. Now, granted, polls may be inaccurate, however, there has never been majority support for Russia, nor a turning to Russia.
Which polls, where were they held, what was the questioning, who held them.
My statement on the language laws is accurate. Russian was recognized in that region, and nationally, as a regional language. It did not have official language status in Ukraine, although the regional status was a path to eventual official status. But yes, I agree, the attempt to remove the regional language status is what provoked the crisis.
It did not provoke the crisis other in that it was the final drop that made people feel they were no longer represented in the government.
Finally, bear in mind that the cities in the Dontesk and Luhansk oblasts are predominantly Russian speaking, but the regions surrounding those cities are not always. It is more of a mixture of Russian and Ukrainian (surzhik), and many in those surrounding regions view themselves as Ukrainian, not Russian.
Remember that if you ask the question those in Donetsk and Luhanks cities also view themselves as Ukrainian. They may speak Russian, but that does not mean they feel themselves like Mexicans in the USA.
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Dude, if you are interested PM me and I'll give you the email of a Ukrainian living in Kharkiv who actually spent time in the Donbass region as an activist. At first she feared that Donetsk was lost to the Russians. Not anymore. She was one of many digging a trench to hold the Russian army advance.
She will gladly tell you you are full of kakashka.
I'm guessing that you are ultra-left in Netherlands. Nothing wrong with that in my book. ;)
Of course those rooting for the government will tell that :)
And we have been over that before, in the Netherlands I am liberal with slight rightwing tendency.
However even the right-wing extremists in the Netherlands would be seen as left from Obama.
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(http://www.xoxol.org/putin/remember-this-chart-785x651.jpg)
And do not forget the 100% right wing of the USA.
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In America we have 48% initially against the current government. We call them Republicans. (As Obama goes on, that figure grows increasingly higher.)
Thanks for your take Shadow. I could see those numbers being true. Although I think there are some very disillusioned separatists right now. How do you see the end playing out?
As for the Russians taking over the area, I think it would have evolved into a very bloody conflict, with casualties in the tens of thousands, not the hundreds (approaching 1000) where we are now.
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And do not forget the 100% right wing of the USA.
Oh, you will be burned in hell when Muzh gets a hold of that quote!
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I do not deny some Russians were in Crimea, but they were not sent by the Russian government.
You sure about that?
"Russian President Vladimir Putin has acknowledged that Russian troops were present in Crimea before the referendum and argued that was necessary to let Crimeans make the choice on the future of the region."
http://rt.com/news/crimea-defense-russian-soldiers-108/
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In America we have 48% initially against the current government. We call them Republicans. (As Obama goes on, that figure grows increasingly higher.)
Thanks for your take Shadow. I could see those numbers being true. Although I think there are some very disillusioned separatists right now. How do you see the end playing out?
As for the Russians taking over the area, I think it would have evolved into a very bloody conflict, with casualties in the tens of thousands, not the hundreds (approaching 1000) where we are now.
At this time it seems the separatists are giving up. Last weekend that is what the leaders in Donetsk wer indication, already before losing the Slovyansk area. They are aware that becoming independent is impossible and that Russia is not going to invade Ukraine unless there is a mass slaughter.
Probably by this weekend a decision will be made, as with the World Cup finishing the focus will shift back to world affairs next week.
If they would have truly wanted to separate, they should have taken control of the area better, like simply blowing up bridges over the Volga and Dnepr, really removing all Ukrainian military from their area and preparing for a long term war. They did not manage due to lack of support or trust in promises from others.
It could easily have become something like we see in Syria, and I think we should all feel lucky that it did not.
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You sure about that?
"Russian President Vladimir Putin has acknowledged that Russian troops were present in Crimea before the referendum and argued that was necessary to let Crimeans make the choice on the future of the region."
http://rt.com/news/crimea-defense-russian-soldiers-108/ (http://rt.com/news/crimea-defense-russian-soldiers-108/)
I have asked a transcipt of the interview as his exact words may have been slightly different.
We all know that the 22.000 allowed troops were present, and clearly the unmarked Crimea defense troops got some support. As for his statement, I have read different versions. One where he is said to admit the unmarked troops were Russian, one where he is said to say that Russian troops supported them. A small difference, and probably in the big picture unimportant.
But the statement was a reply on Boethius telling that the Pravi Sektor supporters were not sent by the Ukrainian government, and should be seen in that context.
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Oh, you will be burned in hell when Muzh gets a hold of that quote!
I am aware that within America there is a distinct left and right.
When you look at it from the international spectrum the American left is still on the right-wing side.
However the whole political spectrum is getting messed up a bit, because in some ways America took the old ways of the Soviet Union. Things like allegiance to the flag and regarding any critic as enemy of the state are more communist as liberal, unless to go to extreme liberalism.
But I do not wish or dare to use the political name of extreme liberalism in relation to America, as I would be immediately declared a hater and mortal enemy for good ;)
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Haha. I was reading some of John Kennedy's speeches recently. He was to the right of all but the most extreme conservatives in the current Congress. The body politic has moved to the left over the years. Not so far as Europe.
We tend to think in terms of social legislation and fiscal policy when it comes to determining where someone stands with relationship to left or right. Someone might be fiscally conservative and socially liberal, or just the opposite. (Although everyone tends to believe that they are fiscally conservative, even when not.)
There is a true difference in people who love America, yet are critical of our policies or government. Those people, regardless of where they are from, are not too hard to listen to.
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There is a true difference in people who love America, yet are critical of our policies or government. Those people, regardless of where they are from, are not too hard to listen to.
Perhaps it comes over different in writing, but I have always enjoyed my visits to America and real life meetings with Americans. As mentioned I would not mind living in America and New York made me feel very at home.
That is may show different is partially because I never mince my words, in that way I fit in to the Russian culture.
It is not only Americans that have trouble with this, the culture in Holland is also more and more going towards the need to pack criticism in soft terms.
I am still trying to change that and make people say what they really think instead of what they believe they must tell to bring the point across softly. It is an uphill struggle, but who knows it may catch on.
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...I am still trying to change that and make people say what they really think instead of what they believe they must tell to bring the point across softly. It is an uphill struggle, but who knows it may catch on.
:ROFL: :ROFL:
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I am aware that within America there is a distinct left and right.
When you look at it from the international spectrum the American left is still on the right-wing side.
However the whole political spectrum is getting messed up a bit, because in some ways America took the old ways of the Soviet Union. Things like allegiance to the flag and regarding any critic as enemy of the state are more communist as liberal, unless to go to extreme liberalism.
But I do not wish or dare to use the political name of extreme liberalism in relation to America, as I would be immediately declared a hater and mortal enemy for good ;)
Politics like religion is the opiate of the masses. Another method of divide and conquer
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Any fool knows that Russia’s intelligence forces control the Russian border. Tanks and missile launchers cannot enter Ukraine without Putin’s permission.
Evidently, Mr. Gregory has never read this, or the other, forum.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/07/11/putins-failing-ukraine-scorecard/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/07/11/putins-failing-ukraine-scorecard/)
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I'm sure the anti-west Putinist fanboys/girls on both forums will squirm and voice their displeasure at such a blatant piece of anti-Putin propaganda against their hero. :rolleyes:
In their case unfailing ignorance is bliss. :)
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I'm sure the anti-west Putinist fanboys/girls on both forums will squirm and voice their displeasure at such a blatant piece of anti-Putin propaganda against their hero. :rolleyes:
In their case unfailing ignorance is bliss. :)
Your comments are idiotic and add nothing important to the discussion. :D The man who wrote the article and woman who posted it here have every right to voice their opinions. These opinions can be challenged if somebody disagrees with certain assertions, and chooses to do so… YOU on the other hand prefer to stick to labels/names, which show your depth, or lack thereof as evidenced by your latest post.
Here is a link to the author of the article, he has posted dozens and many of the earlier articles have not gone down the way he seemed to believe they would. I have read most of his pieces, and find that he omits important points...but he is allowed to do that as he never said he was going to attempt to make an equal representation.
http://paulgregorysblog.blogspot.com/ (http://paulgregorysblog.blogspot.com/)
Fathertime!
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The popular Donetsk online publication Ostrov released data from its own survey, according to which a majority of respondents (representative of Ostrov users) wish to remain in Ukraine and only a tiny minority support the separatists. According to the survey, 75% of respondents see their future with Ukraine, 15% would like to live in the West, 4% are ready to move to Russia, and only 3% see their future with the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic or the Luhansk People’s Republic.
The important point is that more than 7500 users of the online publication have taken part in the survey, a much larger number than the usual selection in representative nationwide public opinion surveys.
Commenting on the results, political scientist Kost Bondarenko, director of the Ukrainian Politics Foundation, noted that "results of these kinds of public opinion polls capture a very important population — people who are intelligent, thoughtful, and who are trying to keep up with the times."
According to Bondarenko, "these are people who influence public opinion significantly and set the tone of public life. It is significant that this part of society is categorically opposed to separatism, viewing it a risk and a dead-end for regional development." he says.
"The 75% figure of those who see their future with Ukraine is more than significant, as is the 3% supporting separatism. This demonstrates that separatism, as a political phenomenon, has fallen below the conventional threshold. Separatists, despite all attempts to increase their military-technical presence in the region, have failed to achieve the most essential thing — they have not been able to win over people who influence opinions and set the development strategy for the region," Bondarenko said.
However, Bondarenko thinks that people may question the representative nature of this kind of survey. "At a time when it is virtually impossible (because of the fighting and instability of the situation) to conduct a series of sociological field surveys in Donbas, similar internet-based surveys do not provide absolute results, but they indicate the dynamics," he explains. "With a 75% result, it is meaningless to argue about the degree of survey error — we are dealing with trends and attitudes. The fact that a significant majority of the population lives in urban areas suggests a high level of internet access and, therefore, a high degree of reliability of such surveys. To speak about real and undeniable attitudes will be possible only after Donbas returns to normal life and the population is able to participate in elections." the analyst concluded.
http://www.unian.ua/politics/938809-opituvannya-riven-pidtrimki-separatizmu-na-donbasi-padae.html (http://www.unian.ua/politics/938809-opituvannya-riven-pidtrimki-separatizmu-na-donbasi-padae.html)
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Touch a nerve there did i fathertime ?
Your comments on this forum are insulting on a regular basis to other posters,as well as to Ukrainian people in general with your ludicrous win/win claims.
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I'm sure the anti-west Putinist fanboys/girls on both forums will squirm and voice their displeasure at such a blatant piece of anti-Putin propaganda against their hero. :rolleyes:
In their case unfailing ignorance is bliss. :)
Touch a nerve there did i fathertime ?
Your comments on this forum are insulting on a regular basis to other posters,as well as to Ukrainian people in general with your ludicrous win/win claims.
Once again if you make childish comments you shouldn't be surprised if somebody responds to them...and directly calls you out for making them.
Regarding the win/win...although both countries may wind up gaining something good when the crisis ends...there is no important reason for me to repeat that statement if it is going to annoy other posters...I've already stated the case, and in the future we will see what comes to pass.
Fathertime!
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Thousands have died, and millions have had their lives disrupted because of this "win win" provocation by Russia. I agree with Chelseaboy, your posts are an insult to Ukrainians.
Here is the testimony before the European subcommittee of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee by Edward Lucas. Mr. Lucas is a well known British journalist, with an expertise on Eastern Europe and Russia. I am posting a few excerpts -
Russia begrudges the former captive nations of the Soviet empire their freedom, their prosperity, and particularly their independence. It maintains an old-fashioned idea of “legitimate interests” and “spheres of influence” in which the future geopolitical orientation of countries such as Ukraine and Georgia is not a matter of sovereign choice for the peoples of those nations, but a question in which Russia has, by right, a veto. . .
Russia is winning. Too much attention is paid to the ebb and flow of events in Ukraine. The big picture is bleak: Russia has successfully challenged the European security order. It has seized another country’s territory, fomented insurrection, and engaged in repeated acts of military saber-rattling, subversion and economic coercion. The response from the West has been weak and disunited. The United States is distracted by multiple urgent problems elsewhere. You rightly wonder why you should be bearing the cost of increasing European security. For their part many European countries have no appetite for confrontation with Russia.
http://www.foreign.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Lucas_Testimony1.pdf (http://www.foreign.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Lucas_Testimony1.pdf)
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There are 3 pressing issues Ukraine is faced with that they need to attend to if they are to rise from the heep due to over 20 years of rife and poverty...
Curb corruption, solving their mortality rate and understanding their export viability (Russia v Europe).
1. How can the new (reformed?) government allow Tymoshenko to roam the country on a vengeful mode seeking those responsible for her incarceration when most believe she's guilty of corruption as charged to begin with? At the present time, Oligarch are much too busy positioning themselves from within Ukraine's autocracy and politics.
2. It's difficult to believe a country with a negative mortality rate can be a 'progressive' entity.
3. Most of Ukraine's tradeable commodities and resource are better fit for Russia's consumption than it is for Europe.
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Thousands have died, and millions have had their lives disrupted because of this "win win" provocation by Russia. I agree with Chelseaboy, your posts are an insult to Ukrainians.
That's fine, then take it as an insult... Be that as it may, we shall see how the situation plays out in the years to come, if indeed Ukraine moves towards Europe and does well, while Russia took Crimea and does fine also.
Fathertime!
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I hope no-one is planning to visit Donetsk this week.
Shelling and fighting at the train station today,with the local residents leaving their homes.
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If Putin 'mans up,' his regime will crumble........California Senator Barbara Feinstein has demanded that Vladimir Putin “man up” and admit that pro-Russian separatists downed MH17, mistaking it for a Ukrainian transport plane. That this is true is obvious to all except Putin’s propaganda machine that is frantically churning out absurd conspiracy theories, while Putin lies low and limits himself to vague claims of Ukrainian guilt.
http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/paul-roderick-gregory-if-putin-mans-up-his-regime-will-crumble-357243.html
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Among 18 fighters who are captured after one of the last battles in the Luhansk region by the Operational Command "North", the majority are citizens of Russia - Russians, Chechens and one Ossetian.
Spokesman of the Operational Command "North" Anatolii Proshyn told "Radio Liberty". Also among the detainees, there are Azerbaijanis and a Serbian citizen, and only a few separatists are Luhansk residents, he said. According to him, captured militants believed that the Ukrainian soldiers will kill them and were surprised that after questioning and investigation they will be taken to court.
After liberation of the cities, the most important task of the Ukrainian army and the National Guard is psychological work with the general public, Anatolii Proshyn said.
On Monday, when the Ukrainian military liberated the city Shchastia from the separatists, there were no people on the streets. Later they explained that the militants intimidated them with atrocities allegedly committed by the Ukrainian military. "People who communicate with us change their minds, but it is important to involve them in such communication." Anatoli Proshyn said.
Therefore, now groups of psychologists are dispatched in these cities and the military help to distribute aid and assist in establishing normal life of the liberated cities.Yesterday the Operational Command "North" took part in the liberation of Rubizhne and in intense battles near Lysychansk.
http://en.censor.net.ua/news/295111/most_of_detained_militants_in_luhansk_are_russian_citizens (http://en.censor.net.ua/news/295111/most_of_detained_militants_in_luhansk_are_russian_citizens)
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After all this came about...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/mh17-ukraine-mps-fight-in-parliament-following-decision-to-call-up-extra-border-troops-9621427.html
This happened...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/24/arseniy-yatsenyuk-resigns_n_5617322.html
comments? :rolleyes:
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Here is yet another example of the "local support" the terrorists received -
SEVERODONETSK, Ukraine – When three Russian-backed separatists with Kalashnikovs turned up at Yuliy Krasiuk’s shop last month, he told them he didn’t want their protection. “There’s no-one I need protecting from except for you guys,” he recalls telling them. He was right.
The gunmen got angry with his response and plundered Krasiuk’s shop of used consumer electronics. They took his car and detained him for two days until his wife paid nearly $2,000 for his release.
Now, Krasiuk is celebrating after Ukrainian soldiers on July 22 liberated the Luhansk Oblast city of 110,000 residents. His story is being repeated across eastern Ukraine in recent weeks, as Ukraine’s army frees one city after another from occupation by armed Kremlin-backed guerillas and Russian mercenaries.
The big prizes – control of the provincial capitals of Donetsk and Luhansk – are left for the Ukrainian government to take amid reports of fierce fighting this week.
While some in the liberated cities supported the Russian-backed guerillas most say they suffered extortion, violence and intolerance.
When Ukrainian soldiers arrived here at a jail, they found four prisoners and two fresh corpses. All were locals, according to Oleksandr Zaporozhtsev, deputy police chief of Severodonetsk, He also said that the separatists took dozens of hostages while retreating.
Russian-backed forces took control of the city in late May. Their strength reached up to 1,000 armed people and included Russians as well as representatives of the self-proclaimed Luhansk People’s Republic. For their main headquarters, the separatists seized a nine-story building of the state-run Institute of Azot Industry, where some 400 fighters, including mercenaries reportedly from the Dagestan Province of Russia, settled.
They left mines, orange-and-black St. George ribbons that symbolize their pro-Russian orientation, a trampled Ukrainian flag, and leaflets from the Moscow-based Orthodox Foundation collecting money for the needs of New Russia – the Kremlin’s description of southeastern Ukraine.
Their leader was Pavel Dremov, who ruled Severodonetsk and directed a paramilitary Russian Cossack group. He is a former bricklayer from Stakhanov. They ruled ruthlessly, persecuting local drug deals and beating those convicted of looting.
But the reign of terror soon hit ordinary people also.
Krasiuk recalled a farmer who was captured at a checkpoint as he was taking milk and strawberries to sell at the local market. He was falsely accused of helping the Right Sector, a militant nationalist group. Krasiuk said that he and the farmer were imprisoned together and heard the farmer scream from torture. He doesn’t know what became of the fellow prisoner.
“I doubt that man stayed alive,” he said.
Four representatives of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe were captured in Severodonetsk on May 29 and kept for nearly a month by separatists led by Nikolai Kozitsyn.
On July 10, a number of houses in Severodonetsk, including a big hotel complex, were damaged by shelling. While the separatists blamed the Ukrainian army, locals believe the separatists orchestrated the attacks to win the favor of local residents. Just a few minutes after the shelling, for instance, insurgents showed up, accompanied by Russian journalists who quickly reported that the Ukrainian army was shelling residential areas.
But the worst shelling came from July 18-22, when six people were killed and dozens wounded. Just like in previous takeovers, the Ukrainian troops applied Grad multiple rocket launchers, but denied using them on civilian targets. Overall, however, Severodonetsk did not experience big fights as separatists retreated south.
Oleksiy Svetikov, a local journalist and activist, believes that billionaire Dmytro Firtash, owner of city’s biggest Azot chemical plant, helped convince – or pay – the separatists to leave.
But days later, many residents are still hiding in school basements because they fear shelling, which can still be heard from several miles away from the fierce fighting that is under way in Lysychansk. A few people gathered on July 23 at Severodonetsk’s main square, where a statue of Vladimir Lenin has a Ukrainian flag for a scarf.
When spotting a group of three Berkut riot police officers from Kirovograd, who were patrolling the city to make sure there were no more Kremlin-backed separatists left in the city, many people approached to thank them and bring them some food. Seeing them Krasiuk, the businessman, ran up to them and started shaking their hands, furiously and friendly.
“You can’t imagine how happy I am to see you guys here,” he said.
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/severodonetsk-residents-recall-occupiers-brutality-357837.html (http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/severodonetsk-residents-recall-occupiers-brutality-357837.html)
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After all this came about...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/mh17-ukraine-mps-fight-in-parliament-following-decision-to-call-up-extra-border-troops-9621427.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/mh17-ukraine-mps-fight-in-parliament-following-decision-to-call-up-extra-border-troops-9621427.html)
This happened...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/24/arseniy-yatsenyuk-resigns_n_5617322.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/24/arseniy-yatsenyuk-resigns_n_5617322.html)
comments? :rolleyes:
Too bad. I liked the PM. He worked very hard with world leaders to get support for his country.
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A glimpse of the "separatists" -
While many tales of atrocities have come to the surface over the past few months, most have been defined by two attributes: the perpetrators' Russian origin, and the body of evidence coming from the testimony of victims and witnesses.
Some first hand interviews have offset the latter, shining light on the motivations and actions from both sides of the trigger, these have still mostly come from foreign invaders and not locals. One Sovietized insurgent from Armenia detailed (http://www.businessinsider.com/interview-with-ukrainian-separatist-2014-7)his destructive foray into Ukraine, confirming that 80% of militants occupying Donetsk are foreigner like himself. Another Russian mercenary issued his disinterest in Luhansk’s destruction to the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/16/world/europe/whisked-away-for-tea-with-a-rebel-in-ukraine.html), ‘not giving a damn about any of this.’
Volodymyr Parasyuk, a revolutionary hero to many in Ukraine (http://nypost.com/2014/02/25/meet-the-man-who-forced-ukraines-president-to-run-for-his-life/), provided first hand details of a captive’s confession; one that offers more than just casual indifference as a reason for violence. As the account goes, the National Guard’s Dnipro Battalion captured a Ukrainian paratrooper who had turned-coat and defected to the militants in the Donetsk Republic terrorist organization – informing them of military positions, weapon intel, checkpoint locations, and made possible Grad rocket attacks on Ukrainian positions.
The prisoner, Dmytro, was of the belief that Russian President Vladimir Putin was going to save them, and that they already had Russian assistance.
He also told Parasyuk how the Donetsk Republic’s men treated the local population: “They get all liquored up in the evening, they go down the streets, and they shoot at innocent civilians. Whoever kills more wins the bet.”
He also admitted that the group had raped young girls, “and anyone who refused got a rifle to the head and was offered a choice: obey or get a bullet to the head (http://mashable.com/2014/07/10/evidence-of-execution-trial-discovered-in-the-rubble-of-rebel-headquarters-in-ukraine/).”
Regionnaires (Party of Regions (http://euromaidanpress.com/tag/party-of-regions/) members) and Commies always yell that these aren't terrorists, that they’re just people with different views, and that Russians are our brothers. But here’s the way it is, they’re no brothers of ours. These are swine who hate everything Ukrainian and dream of destroying the Ukrainian nation, so that there’s not a trace of it left.
While it may be hard to gauge how much of the above is true – either said in duress or as twisted bravado – the scars of war undoubtedly yield likened brutality the world over. What sets Dmytro apart, however, is that he is not a foreign plunderer but a local collaborator; and not one with blasé detachment but frenzied indifference to his own people. If insurgent forces are described as “anti-Kyiv,” then why is equal belligerence meted out to local innocents?
It is true that the Russian backed ‘militias’ have been described (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/16/world/europe/whisked-away-for-tea-with-a-rebel-in-ukraine.html) as disorganized, chronically dysfunctional, and often drunk, just as the above testimony illustrated.
UN monitors have especially noted the steady rise in wanton violence (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/18/ukraine-violence_n_5506658.html) by Russian-backed groups in Ukraine. “A climate of lawlessness prevails in the east with an increase in criminality, killings, abductions and detentions by the armed groups,” said UN Assistant Secretary-General for Human Rights Ivan Simonovic. More than a simply gradient increase, Hugh Williamson, Europe and Central Asia director at Human Rights Watch (http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/05/23/ukraine-anti-kiev-forces-running-amok) bluntly said that these groups are “out of control” and “abusing people at will.”
Another top UN human rights office official described (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/18/ukraine-violence_n_5506658.html) the situation as a “reign of fear, if not a reign of terror,” in the areas controlled by these terrorist groups.
Amnesty International (http://www.dw.de/amnesty-abduction-and-torture-grip-eastern-ukraine/a-17776820) deputy director Denis Krivosheev describes, in clarifying that the bulk of abductions have been carried out by Russian-backed groups, that victims are “often subjected to stomach-turning beatings and torture.”
Russian-backed militias have also been known to employ terrorist tactics (MH17 aside), with Human Rights Watch noting (http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/05/23/ukraine-anti-kiev-forces-running-amok) that they use “beatings and kidnappings to send the message that anyone who doesn’t support them had better shut up or leave.”
But perhaps Oliver Carroll described the regional situation and local phenomenon best in Foreign Policy, calling it bluntly “a bit of the old ultraviolence (http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/05/07/a_bit_of_the_old_ultraviolence_ukraine_russia),” a reference to Stanley Kubrick’s classic– because that’s what the situation on the ground, unleashed from the east, is increasingly appearing to be.
http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/07/24/more-of-the-old-ultraviolence-captured-traitors-confession-adds-to-growing-list-of-atrocities/ (http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/07/24/more-of-the-old-ultraviolence-captured-traitors-confession-adds-to-growing-list-of-atrocities/)
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A glimpse of the "separatists" -
http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/07/24/more-of-the-old-ultraviolence-captured-traitors-confession-adds-to-growing-list-of-atrocities/ (http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/07/24/more-of-the-old-ultraviolence-captured-traitors-confession-adds-to-growing-list-of-atrocities/)
Wow! A win-win situation for the Ukrainian locals.
Yep.
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Horlivka terrorists are carrying out general mobilization forcefully recruiting teenagers and pensioners into their ranks. , ,
"Armed militants are taking the entire male population, starting from 14-year-old teenagers to retired people of 65," the statement says.
It is also noted that the terrorists continue to use civilians as "human shields", as well as post their firing positions in residential areas and civilian objects in the territory.
The militants have placed dozens of Grad systems in crowded residential areas, in particular near Rumiantseva mine in Horlivka, in the territory of the housing department #5 in Khartsyzk, in the village Malomykolaivka near Krasnyi Luch, in Pershomaisk in the vicinity of vocational school # 31.
http://en.censor.net.ua/v295324 (http://en.censor.net.ua/v295324)
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A number of journalists, including VICE News’ Simon Ostrovsky, who has done some of the best reporting on the crisis in eastern Ukraine (http://euromaidanpress.com/tag/eastern-ukraine/) to date, posted photos today of an exhumation being conducted by police.
Police informed Ostrovsky that the dig site he witnessed was used as a ‘mass dumping site’ for victims executed by men under Russian terrorist Igor Girkin’s command. At the mass grave, skeletal remains of those from the Russian-Ukrainian civil war also turned up during the dig for bodies.
Recall that previous mass graves were discovered in the city,notably containing priest’s and their families (http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/07/15/interior-ministry-pro-russian-terrorists-murdered-mutilated-two-sloviansk-priests-their-children/), and documents have shown (http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/documents-reveal-shadowy-russian-rebel-commander-signed-off-on-executions-of-three-men-in-sloviansk-355580.html) Girkin to have carried out summary executions on residents of the city.
http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/07/24/police-exhume-more-mass-dumping-sites-of-executed-victims-in-sloviansk/ (http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/07/24/police-exhume-more-mass-dumping-sites-of-executed-victims-in-sloviansk/)
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Boethius-
Does it make you wonder *why* it seems there's a more intense western *coverage* of the atrocities happening in Eastern Ukraine now that movements in the Rada had begun to roll?
Even AI reports, while claiming a *smaller* number of it, violence perpetuated by the pro-Kiev troops ( and armed groups, which is as silly as saying *unnamed Intelligence* having evidence we just can't see right now - no, June's satellite images shot that have nothing to do with the subject event doesn't apply) is hardly detailed of not outright ambiguous.
You have been a good example of this in case you haven't noticed. :(
I wondered if all of these (western media frenzy) are working by design considering the upcoming *election*, likely to bolster Poroshenko's power even more, requires control of the hostile regions.
Do you know who all were in attendance in the Yalta Summit? It's curious to say the least, if you do not...
All they had to do (Kiev) is allow a representation for the eastern region in those peace meetings before.....
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My coverage is not Western coverage. It is from Ukraine.
As towns are liberated, it is difficult to hide what occurred. As I stated at the outset, the "separatists" had a majority ranking of paid mercenaries/criminals, who are wreaking havoc in the areas they control. Children stepping on landmines, summary executions of innocents (one, a man who stole two shirts - did he deserve a bullet in the head for petty theft?), boys as young as 14 being forcibly recruited into dwindling separatist ranks. These stories were not reported in the past.
There are Rada members from Eastern Ukraine, and members from the region in the cabinet. Their governor is a local. So to suggest they had no representation in Kyiv is inaccurate.
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My coverage is not Western coverage. It is from Ukraine....
Well, don't you think that's just as bad? What do you expect pro-Kiev media is going to churn? Strange how this is demonize on one side but not the other, no?
...As towns are liberated, it is difficult to hide what occurred. As I stated at the outset, the "separatists" had a majority ranking of paid mercenaries/criminals, who are wreaking havoc in the areas they control. Children stepping on landmines, summary executions of innocents (one, a man who stole two shirts - did he deserve a bullet in the head for petty theft?), boys as young as 14 being forcibly recruited into dwindling separatist ranks. These stories were not reported in the past....
Yes, and if you admit these are difficult to report then where do you find the balance and objective in this? Moreover, *hired guns* is not a one way practice in this conflict, and you know that.
..There are Rada members from Eastern Ukraine, and members from the region in the cabinet. Their governor is a local. So to suggest they had no representation in Kyiv is inaccurate.
The Communist Party is being kicked out, but I'm not talking about that. Before the violence even deepened a month/a month and a half ago, they attempted to settle their disputes and Kiev was asked to make sure E. Ukraine had a delegation/representation in this meeting. It was refused.
Take a page out of the present Israel/Gaza conflict. I'm elated to finally *see* reports of Israel's cruelty being brought front and center and are being contemplated for possible Human Rights violations when it had enjoyed so many years of *western media* sympathetic, compassion plea feeds.
In conflicts, if anyone is *right*, then that makes everyone *wrong*.
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Well, don't you think that's just as bad? What do you expect pro-Kiev media is going to churn? Strange how this is demonize on one side but not the other, no?
No. The Ukrainian military hasn't carried out extra judicial murders.
Yes, and if you admit these are difficult to report then where do you find the balance and objective in this? Moreover, *hired guns* is not a one way practice in this conflict, and you know that.
I report what has been found on the ground by at least two sources. The second is usually a Western reporter. Not likely they are lying for the Ukrainian cause.
The Communist Party is being kicked out, but I'm not talking about that. Before the violence even deepened a month/a month and a half ago, they attempted to settle their disputes and Kiev was asked to make sure E. Ukraine had a delegation/representation in this meeting. It was refused.
I state again. Eastern Ukrainians are represented in government. Why should self appointed Muscovites get a place at the table on what goes on in Ukraine?
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No. The Ukrainian military hasn't carried out extra judicial murders. ...
First casualty of war is the *truth*.
..I report what has been found on the ground by at least two sources. The second is usually a Western reporter. Not likely they are lying for the Ukrainian cause...
Which you already admitted to be more than likely not complete due to the nature of such strife. Insufficiency of information doesn't necessarily denote reality.
...I state again. Eastern Ukrainians are represented in government. Why should self appointed Muscovites get a place at the table on what goes on in Ukraine?...
And I state again, if *peace* and reconciliation was forefront to this brewing civil war, why didn't they venture and seek every conceivable means to avoid bloodshed?
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First casualty of war is the *truth*.
Read enough sources, and one can discern the truth.
Which you already admitted to be more than likely not complete due to the nature of such strife. Insufficiency of information doesn't necessarily denote reality.
But the same stories, reported time and again, usually does.
And I state again, if *peace* and reconciliation was forefront to this brewing civil war, why didn't they venture and seek every conceivable means to avoid bloodshed?
They did. The Muscovites who came to foment war are not interested in avoiding bloodshed.
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Read enough sources, and one can discern the truth...
You mean like the Syrian gas attack or Obama's legacy?
...But the same stories, reported time and again, usually does....
Like the Libyan embassy/Video tape, right?
...They did. The Muscovites who came to foment war are not interested in avoiding bloodshed.
They did not...the meeting never took place because of Kiev's refusal.
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No, there were meetings between representatives of the Ukrainian government and the terrorists. Kuchma was a mediator. The terrorists were represented by their self appointed "leader", Muscovite Borodai.
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No, there were meetings between representatives of the Ukrainian government and the terrorists. Kuchma was a mediator. The terrorists were represented by their self appointed "leader", Muscovite Borodai.
Our tiny country was once invaded by nazis. They fought as good as they could, sinking a war ship, getting the 50 tons of gold out of the country and some fought a resistance fight based from England and Sweden. By Your definition, I Guess they could be called terrorists.
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Russia increases attacks in support of terrorists
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/26/world/europe/russian-artillery-fires-into-ukraine-kiev-says.html?_r=1 (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/26/world/europe/russian-artillery-fires-into-ukraine-kiev-says.html?_r=1)
Russia denies the claims.
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...As I stated at the outset, the "separatists" had a majority ranking of paid mercenaries/criminals, who are wreaking havoc in the areas they control....
http://online.wsj.com/articles/ukraines-secret-weapon-feisty-oligarch-ihor-kolomoisky-1403886665 (http://online.wsj.com/articles/ukraines-secret-weapon-feisty-oligarch-ihor-kolomoisky-1403886665)
>>But critics question Mr. Kolomoisky's motives, pointing out that he and other oligarchs in Ukraine may have more financial than altruistic reasons for maintaining the status quo. For years now, critics say, the oligarchs' powerful influence over many industries have blocked economic reforms in a country that has one of Europe's lowest average per capita incomes.
These are precisely the opposite of the sorts of people would you want to appoint as governors. It's hard for me to see why those who fought for change in Ukraine would want such people in charge.
>>Still, Privat Bank, the bank he controls, could stand to gain from aid being pumped into Ukraine that will partly be used to recapitalize the country's banks regardless of the Russian threat. This spring, for example, the International Monetary Fund approved $17 billion in aid to Ukraine, and the World Bank and Group of Seven leading nations plan to pump in another $15 billion soon.<<
>>Today the Dnipro Battalion has not only the 2,000 battle-ready troops, equipped with heavy weapons, but more than 20,000 in reserve. If any Russian soldier wants to die for Russia, said Yury Beryoza, the commander of the battalion, "they should come to Dnipropetrovsk, because here we will kill them."....
The Dnipro Batallion saw its first major action when separatists took control of a police station in the port city of Mariupol, in an adjacent province. The station was burned to the ground with its occupants. In all, 54 volunteers from Dnipropetrovsk have been killed since the beginning of the fighting.....
He said Mr. Kolomoisky has brought in Romanian and Georgian military advisers to help with the training of troops, who in the Dnipro Battallion until recently only had a week of boot camp. <<
As AI said, albeit discreetly...*armed groups*
:(
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You're not posting anything I don't know, and have not posted. He's not a nice guy, to say the least. He offered a bounty for dead Russians. However, the skirmishes in Donetsk would have had as much wind as they did in Kharkiv and Odesa were it not for Muscovites arriving and declaring the region an independent republic.
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After reviewing the maps today and hearing that the separatists have been pushed back in both Donetsk and Lugansk, and also hearing about the great number of defections, it would seem that either the DPR and the LPR are probably on their last legs OR the Russian military is coming across the border.
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You're not posting anything I don't know, and have not posted. He's not a nice guy, to say the least. He offered a bounty for dead Russians. However, the skirmishes in Donetsk would have had as much wind as they did in Kharkiv and Odesa were it not for Muscovites arriving and declaring the region an independent republic.
I'm glad to know you're aware of it then...
The question now is, why would a reforming government even sanction such a group while negotiating a cease fire/peace treaty? Do you think the formation of such a renegade armed group in Ukraine, with approval of the government, sporting violent sentiments known to everyone is really a recipe for progress?
THAT was my point.
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What makes you think the government approved it?
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What makes you think the government approved it?
LOL. You claimed you knew all about it. Read the article and if you have doubt of its validity, you may even read it through Kyiv's cover story here...
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine-abroad/wall-street-journal-ukraines-secret-weapon-feisty-oligarch-ihor-kolomoisky-353832.html (http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine-abroad/wall-street-journal-ukraines-secret-weapon-feisty-oligarch-ihor-kolomoisky-353832.html)
Evil always have two faces.
All you really have done lately was become a female JayH. I thought the board hated it when he was doing what you've been doing the past few days. I don't even think you got any good night's rest yet.
I understand why you would be moved emotionally about this conflict Boethius, FWIW, I've always regarded you as more of an objective person than most around here. Just a thought...
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FWIW, I've always regarded you as more of an objective person than most around here.
I still do.
Maybe look in the mirror? Something to think about.
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LOL. You claimed you knew all about it. Read the article and if you have doubt of its validity, you may even read it through Kyiv's cover story here...
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine-abroad/wall-street-journal-ukraines-secret-weapon-feisty-oligarch-ihor-kolomoisky-353832.html (http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine-abroad/wall-street-journal-ukraines-secret-weapon-feisty-oligarch-ihor-kolomoisky-353832.html)
Evil always have two faces.
All you really have done lately was become a female JayH. I thought the board hated it when he was doing what you've been doing the past few days. I don't even think you got any good night's rest yet.
I understand why you would be moved emotionally about this conflict Boethius, FWIW, I've always regarded you as more of an objective person than most around here. Just a thought...
IQBlues,
It's telling that you are not able to contend with any of Boethius's arguments. All you have done is to engage in ad hominem attacks and arguments based on the flimsiest evidence. But from your posting history I never expected more from you.
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IQBlues,
It's telling that you are not able to contend with any of Boethius's arguments. All you have done is to engage in ad hominem attacks and arguments based on the flimsiest evidence. But from your posting history I never expected more from you.
Agree 100%
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Russia increases attacks in support of terrorists
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/26/world/europe/russian-artillery-fires-into-ukraine-kiev-says.html?_r=1 (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/26/world/europe/russian-artillery-fires-into-ukraine-kiev-says.html?_r=1)
Sanctions don't work. The world's response to Russia pertaining to the MH17 disaster was weak. Putin understands this so he makes more moves. The first response should have been a strong response. That's the only thing Putin will respect.
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I still do.
Yup. Me, too..
Maybe look in the mirror? Something to think about.
No maybes, I do and certainly like what I see. Honestly now, what about you? Do you like what YOU see?
...It's telling that you are not able to contend with any of Boethius's arguments....
Oh I beg to differ. But I'm glad we do have the difference. May it always remain so....
...I understand why you would be moved emotionally about this conflict Boethius, FWIW, I've always regarded you as more of an objective person than most around here. Just a thought...
.... All you have done is to engage in ad hominem attacks and arguments based on the flimsiest evidence. But from your posting history I never expected more from you.
Maybe you ought to either take the meds or lay off the booze. It's obvious your lack of reading comprehension precedes you. I'd chalk this up as clinical but methinks it's the natural aging process at work here. Do you see dead people now and then, too?
As for posting history, from one who delights on nubile pics, I think I'll take a pass and simply consider the source. Touche? :P
Agree 100%
LOL. Well of course you do! Old minds think alike. Now what? ;)
It's the weekend fellas! Like is out there to enjoy not to sit your booty posting on message boards. People are going to think you ain't got life!. Happy Weekend!
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IQBlues,
It's telling that you are not able to contend with any of Boethius's arguments. All you have done is to engage in ad hominem attacks and arguments based on the flimsiest evidence. But from your posting history I never expected more from you.
I don’t know Larry, I read through their exchange and I’m not seeing GQ attacking her, if anything he seemed awful polite in the way he was making his points. Are you guys sure you’re not just picking on him because you don’t agree with his viewpoint? He shouldn't be condemned just because he checkmated her with that last article he linked.
Fathertime!
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Sanctions don't work. The world's response to Russia pertaining to the MH17 disaster was weak. Putin understands this so he makes more moves. The first response should have been a strong response. That's the only thing Putin will respect.
I believe Billy is correct regarding the sanctions. Russia can survive and weather sanctions if they have to. Where I differ with Billy is on the early strong response. I think that would have led to a full scale war, as I don't think Russia was bluffing. If we had dropped troops or something of the like early, it would have been looked at worldwide as premature and way too aggressive...especially given our recent history...not to mention there would have been no stomach for that response with the American people.
Fathertime!
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Where I differ with Billy is on the early strong response. I think that would have led to a full scale war, as I don't think Russia was bluffing. If we had dropped troops or something of the like early, it would have been looked at worldwide as premature and way too aggressive...especially given our recent history...not to mention there would have been no stomach for that response with the American people.
Billy was talking about the worlds response to MH17, not Americas response. He is absolutely correct. America did not have as much right/claim to investigate the disaster as much as other countries did.
So who held up a rapid response team? Australia was ready to go....so I doubt it was them. Ukraine is at war with the separatists. So that leaves the Dutch or Malaysia.
What would the separatists/russia do? Declare war on the international community? Russia was in no position to impede an inter nation rapid response team at the MH17 crash site. It would have been disasterous for Russia to do so.
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Billy was talking about the worlds response to MH17, not Americas response. He is absolutely correct. America did not have as much right/claim to investigate the disaster as much as other countries did.
So who held up a rapid response team? Australia was ready to go....so I doubt it was them. Ukraine is at war with the separatists. So that leaves the Dutch or Malaysia.
What would the separatists/russia do? Declare war on the international community? Russia was in no position to impede an inter nation rapid response team at the MH17 crash site. It would have been disasterous for Russia to do so.
Hey Lonedrake...I just reread Billy's post...you are correct he was referring to MH17...my mistake.
Fathertime!
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(http://www.xoxol.org/putin/remember-this-chart-785x651.jpg)
You forgot to give the percentage of the far right parties and persons in Russia. :o
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Our tiny country was once invaded by nazis. They fought as good as they could, sinking a war ship, getting the 50 tons of gold out of the country and some fought a resistance fight based from England and Sweden. By Your definition, I Guess they could be called terrorists.
It is a poor analogy.
If 104 of your countrymen fought against your government sitting in Oslo, and were joined by thousands of Swedes, who tortured, murdered, and robbed the locals, and proclaimed areas of Norway an independent republic, with a self appointed Swedish prime minister who had never lived in Norway, you would then have a comparable analogy.
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I'm glad to know you're aware of it then...
The question now is, why would a reforming government even sanction such a group while negotiating a cease fire/peace treaty? Do you think the formation of such a renegade armed group in Ukraine, with approval of the government, sporting violent sentiments known to everyone is really a recipe for progress?
THAT was my point.
They predate the negotiations. You fight fire with fire. It is tragic, but trure.
As for your position on my links, if you don't like them, you can scroll over them. They are not random, and are intended to provide information which is lacking, based on what I read on the forum.
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You fight fire with fire. It is tragic, but trure.
@BoethiusRWD Oh I see! Well, it's fine then #TruthinUkraine
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They predate the negotiations. You fight fire with fire. It is tragic, but trure.
As for your position on my links, if you don't like them, you can scroll over them. They are not random, and are intended to provide information which is lacking, based on what I read on the forum.
The links are providing misinformation, which is not lacking at all here.
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Prove that any link I have provided is misinformation.
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Prove that any link I have provided is misinformation.
Not my job. Spead lies as much as you want.
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You asserted my links are misinformation. They are not. Every one of my links has been reported by at least two sources, one of them Western based. Therefore, if you are going to claim they are lies, please provide the evidence that they are.
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You asserted my links are misinformation. They are not. Every one of my links has been reported by at least two sources, one of them Western based. Therefore, if you are going to claim they are lies, please provide the evidence that they are.
Once again, not my job. To find two or more biased sources is incredibly easy.
Perhaps you will be so kind as to follow the sources of your own links and see what subtance they contain.
Or accept that they are equally reliabe as Russia Today.
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No, I don't accept that. You have a problem accepting the truth.
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A link containing information from a Russian economist. Where is the bias?
http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/07/25/putin-in-july-or-the-fight-for-russias-soul/
A link from the NYT. http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17626.msg372294#msg372294 I noted Russia denies the claims. Where is the bias?
A link from an interview with Strelkov by a Russian reporter. Where is the bias?
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17839.msg372280#msg372280
A link on a mass grave found the Ukrainian forces.
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17626.msg372257#msg372257 Show the bias.
The above, BTW, corresponds with the reports of wounded soldiers in Kyiv. My SIL has spoken to them. She is completely apolitical. Or is she lying and biased as well?
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A link containing information from a Russian economist. Where is the bias?
http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/07/25/putin-in-july-or-the-fight-for-russias-soul/ (http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/07/25/putin-in-july-or-the-fight-for-russias-soul/)
Read the first line. It shows the person writing is already biased.
A link from the NYT. http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17626.msg372294#msg372294 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17626.msg372294#msg372294) I noted Russia denies the claims. Where is the bias?
Kiev says. No bias?
A link from an interview with Strelkov by a Russian reporter. Where is the bias?
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17839.msg372280#msg372280 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17839.msg372280#msg372280)
One again from Kiev sources Where is the non-bias?
A link on a mass grave found the Ukrainian forces.
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17626.msg372257#msg372257 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17626.msg372257#msg372257) Show the bias.
The above, BTW, corresponds with the reports of wounded soldiers in Kyiv. My SIL has spoken to them. She is completely apolitical. Or is she lying and biased as well?
Euromaidan is what you believe to be in unbiased site? Says enough.
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Read the first line. It shows the person writing is already biased.
Read the entire piece. What I noted from the article was what Russian economists stated would occur to their economy were sanctions introduced. Or are they biased too?.
Kiev says. No bias?
Not the point. I noted in my link that Russia denied it.
One again from Kiev sources Where is the non-bias?Euromaidan is what you believe to be in unbiased site? Says enough.
As I noted, reported by Western reporters as well, and has been repeated by wounded Ukrainian soldiers returning from the front. Their stories are worse, in fact.
ETA- Euromaidan press just translates articles from various sources. Yesterday, they translated a piece from a Russian paper on the Ukrainian refugees - the good, the bad, and the ugly.
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Read the first line. It shows the person writing is already biased.
Kiev says. No bias?
One again from Kiev sources Where is the non-bias?Euromaidan is what you believe to be in unbiased site? Says enough.
This line of reasoning is very interesting.
No exact proof of Russian meddling (i.e., denying events that happened) means that:
a) Russian didn't do it
b) Ukrainians have to prove beyond the benefit of the doubt
c) the USA did it
d) the Ukrainians plausibly did it
e) the Dutch most probably did it.
Now, will I get moderated for this?
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This line of reasoning is very interesting.
No exact proof of Russian meddling (i.e., denying events that happened) means that:
a) Russian didn't do it
b) Ukrainians have to prove beyond the benefit of the doubt
c) the USA did it
d) the Ukrainians plausibly did it
e) the Dutch most probably did it.
Now, will I get moderated for this?
Who would moderate you?
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Read the entire piece. What I noted from the article was what Russian economists stated would occur to their economy were sanctions introduced. Or are they biased too?.
Not the point. I noted in my link that Russia denied it.
As I noted, reported by Western reporters as well, and has been repeated by wounded Ukrainian soldiers returning from the front. Their stories are worse, in fact.
ETA- Euromaidan press just translates articles from various sources. Yesterday, they translated a piece from a Russian paper on the Ukrainian refugees - the good, the bad, and the ugly.
As much as you try to defend, you are the one providing links to there as what you seem to find reliable sources.
If I were to post a link to some rubbish accusation that RT is making with a note that Kiev is denying it, would that make for an unbiased link?
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Who would moderate you?
Oh, I don't know. But I believe the culprit resembles this guy
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/Mr_peabody_zps1b46b20f.jpg)
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Oh, I don't know. But I believe the culprit resembles this guy
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/Mr_peabody_zps1b46b20f.jpg)
Never seen that as avatar of one of the mods.
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В Одессе беседуют два еврея:
- Моня, я за нашу Украину шо-то совсем не пойму... Мине все твердят, шо мы воюем з Россией!
- И шо?
- Таки на сегодняшний день результаты украино-российской войны - неутешительны.
Потери Украины: 7 танков, 1 самоходная гаубица, 10 бронемашин, 1 вертолёт и 1 самолет.
Сдалось в плен более 2 миллионов человек...
- И шо ты думаешь?..
- А то, шо Российская армия на войну так до сих пор и не явилась!..
:D
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As much as you try to defend, you are the one providing links to there as what you seem to find reliable sources.
If I were to post a link to some rubbish accusation that RT is making with a note that Kiev is denying it, would that make for an unbiased link?
Do you think this (http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/07/27/335829570/u-s-satellite-images-show-russian-rockets-hitting-ukraine) link as reliable as RT?
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Is this one any good, Doll?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeWjViTVsTo#t=88
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How about this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93MsApTnljk
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Or this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5ZVRzyvUc0
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Or this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-fvS8npj3s
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Here's one from the terrorist. It's funny how they shoot at the Ukrainians but when they get killed it's them "bitches" and "freaks" Ukrainians doing the killing.
Viewer Discretion Advised.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jr4TNhDLcjs&oref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DJr4TNhDLcjs&has_verified=1
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In an interview with Reuters on Wednesday, Alexander Khodakovsky, commander of the Russian-backed Vostok Battalion, acknowledged that rebels possessed a BUK missile system, through the fault of Russia :o
http://mashable.com/2014/07/24/rebel-commander-ukraine-buk-missile-reuters/ (http:// http://mashable.com/2014/07/24/rebel-commander-ukraine-buk-missile-reuters/)
Is Reuters a reliable news source???
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Is this one any good, Doll?
What is it? Where and when?
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How about this one?
What, where, when?
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I couldn't get the above link to load so I re-linked :popcorn:
http://mashable.com/2014/07/24/rebel-commander-ukraine-buk-missile-reuters/
Reuters ..Guardian ....Telegraph ....The Independent are all unreliably reliable [I guess].
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In an interview with Reuters on Wednesday, Alexander Khodakovsky, commander of the Russian-backed Vostok Battalion, acknowledged that rebels possessed a BUK missile system, through the fault of Russia :o
http://mashable.com/2014/07/24/rebel-commander-ukraine-buk-missile-reuters/ (http:// http://mashable.com/2014/07/24/rebel-commander-ukraine-buk-missile-reuters/)
Is Reuters a reliable news source???
And was later reported to be taken out of context. Which some would like to omit.
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What is it? Where and when?
Just open your eyes slowly so as to acclimate your eyes to the light. Trust me, it really doesn't hurt. ;D
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Here's one from the terrorist. It's funny how they shoot at the Ukrainians but when they get killed it's them "bitches" and "freaks" Ukrainians doing the killing.
Viewer Discretion Advised.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jr4TNhDLcjs&oref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DJr4TNhDLcjs&has_verified=1
Good post Muzh. Any more with English subtitles?
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I couldn't get the above link to load so I re-linked :popcorn:
http://mashable.com/2014/07/24/rebel-commander-ukraine-buk-missile-reuters/ (http://mashable.com/2014/07/24/rebel-commander-ukraine-buk-missile-reuters/)
Reuters ..Guardian ....Telegraph ....The Independent are all unreliably reliable [I guess].
As commander of the militia, if I possessed such a tool, I'd never have used it. None of the officers would have gone to such irrational use... In the interview I outlined this information," Khodakovsky said.
“I did not say anything like this to Reuters, and I have a recording of a conversation," Russia’s RIA Novosti reported a source close to Khodakovsky as saying.
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Just open your eyes slowly so as to acclimate your eyes to the light. Trust me, it really doesn't hurt. ;D
Besides being rude, can you specify where were these video taken?
I only can see the military equipment transportation.
From where to where?
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Just open your eyes slowly so as to acclimate your eyes to the light. Trust me, it really doesn't hurt. ;D
YOU open your eyes and ears slowly and trust me- there is NOTHING said on the video who is going where.
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Here's one from the terrorist. It's funny how they shoot at the Ukrainians but when they get killed it's them "bitches" and "freaks" Ukrainians doing the killing.
First of all, there is nothing funny.
Next- both sides act same way.
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http://www.npr.org/assets/news/2014/07/Evidence-of-Russian-Firing-into-Ukraine.pdf (http://www.npr.org/assets/news/2014/07/Evidence-of-Russian-Firing-into-Ukraine.pdf)
Let's see now, we have Russians located in Russia launching artillery rockets at Ukraine's Defense forces located in Ukraine, a Russian supplied SAM launcher firing a SAM11 missile at an Air Malaysia jet liner, Russians recruiting Russian and even Chechans to fight in Ukraine posing as Ukrainian separatists, and of course the military commander of the Donestsk Peoples Repblik led by a former(?) FSB officer, plus of course "The Little Green Men" who invaded Cimea with trucks that had Moscow license plates, but who were of course local self-defense forces. And of course the West in response has banned 3 people who knew Putin in high school from buying toilette paper at Walmart if they ever vist the USA, this should slow them down...
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Here's one from the terrorist. It's funny how they shoot at the Ukrainians but when they get killed it's them "bitches" and "freaks" Ukrainians doing the killing.
Viewer Discretion Advised.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jr4TNhDLcjs&oref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DJr4TNhDLcjs&has_verified=1
Wonderful. And these nice guys are going to "liberate" those poor ethnic Russians in Ukraine.
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Is Reuters a reliable news source???
I fully expect that their editors would subscribe to journalism standards. The reporters who have been with Reuters for a long period should be trustworthy.
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And was later reported to be taken out of context. Which some would like to omit.
No, he backtracked when the report came out. He never stated what he initially said was incorrect. He said his unit has no BUK missiles, but he could not speak for other units.
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Fresh off the press!!!
Not only has Russia continued to deliver devastating heavy weaponry into Ukraine, US Intelligence have now also released evidence showing Russia's unspeakable evil by releasing the demonic Godzilla to prey on innocent drunk Ukrainian soldiers...Kiev forces tried so hard to battle the behemoth, but Godzilla was just way too much.
As a retaliation, EU declares sanctions!!! Bak Si Moon of the United Nations screams for *peas*!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCiM8kSfb8I
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Shadow earlier dismissed a link I posted because it came from Euromaidan press. Despite the fact it was a translation of another report, it was suspect as it emanated from Ukrainians who, we all know can't be trusted.
Here is a link from a Russian human rights activist who was at the grave when it was uncovered, and reported it for Human Rights Watch.
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/24/dispatches-mass-grave-found-eastern-ukraine
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This is purported to be satellite images evidencing of the launching of missiles from Russia at Ukrainian military positions within Ukraine.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/fierce-battle-between-military-and-rebels-in-eastern-ukraine-halts-plane-investigation/2014/07/27/b695809c-1582-11e4-9e3b-7f2f110c6265_story.html?tid=pm_world_pop (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/fierce-battle-between-military-and-rebels-in-eastern-ukraine-halts-plane-investigation/2014/07/27/b695809c-1582-11e4-9e3b-7f2f110c6265_story.html?tid=pm_world_pop)
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In the latest turn of events, investigators are discovering planted parts of Ukrainian fighter jets at the scene of the MH17. One wonders who the parts are there to impress?
It would seem that the Russian government now wants to play the narrative that the rebels shot down the jet that really shot down MH17.
The only problem is that the parts of these jet(s) are not found in situ. So investigators are immediately discounting them as delivered to the site.
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Why is the WW III thread inoperative?
....Is this really too far fetched or much closer to home? If so, for what really? Are fat appetite to interfere in everyone's sovereignty?
Let's see Libya is in turmoil, Egypt still is in turmoil, Israel/Gaza, Syria (maybe even Lebanon), Iraq, Sierra Leoni, Somalia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Myannmar, Venezuela, & Sudan. Why the heck did we have to fcok in Ukraine. Must we really?
We already have ebola in Sudan and now have the black plague in China...It must really be time for a serious mankind purge.....
Dangit! How can I forget bout Nigeria!?!? Oh and of course, the other doozie, North Korea, LOL.
http://news.msn.com/world/n-korea-threatens-nuclear-strike-on-white-house
In the meantime, our CIC is much too busy on a fund & fun raising...Rome's burning and the boy is out partying on the westcoast. Love it!!!
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In the latest turn of events, investigators are discovering planted parts of Ukrainian fighter jets at the scene of the MH17. One wonders who the parts are there to impress?
It would seem that the Russian government now wants to play the narrative that the rebels shot down the jet that really shot down MH17.
The only problem is that the parts of these jet(s) are not found in situ. So investigators are immediately discounting them as delivered to the site.
Any link to reports?
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fairly tasty servings
You're right!
Respect to GQBlues
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In the latest turn of events, investigators are discovering planted parts of Ukrainian fighter jets at the scene of the MH17.
.... a new high for ludicrous. And another sign of disrespect for the victims.
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.... a new high for ludicrous. And another sign of disrespect for the victims.
Provided it is true. I do not doubt Jone, however as you may understand any piece of news regarding MH17 is immediately published here in the Netherlands. As I did not find this in any Dutch souce, it seems a wild rumour.
Unlike that Kiev troops are now fighting and attacking the area of the disaster.
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Unlike that Kiev troops are now fighting and attacking the area of the disaster.
Against Poroshenko's order
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Why is the WW III thread inoperative?
Can you link me to the WWIII thread? I can't find it.
....Is this really too far fetched or much closer to home? If so, for what really? Are fat appetite to interfere in everyone's sovereignty?
Let's see Libya is in turmoil, Egypt still is in turmoil, Israel/Gaza, Syria (maybe even Lebanon), Iraq, Sierra Leoni, Somalia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Myannmar, Venezuela, & Sudan. Why the heck did we have to fcok in Ukraine. Must we really?
We already have ebola in Sudan and now have the black plague in China...It must really be time for a serious mankind purge.....
Dangit! How can I forget bout Nigeria!?!? Oh and of course, the other doozie, North Korea, LOL.
http://news.msn.com/world/n-korea-threatens-nuclear-strike-on-white-house (http://news.msn.com/world/n-korea-threatens-nuclear-strike-on-white-house)
We (the USA), actually facilitated the assassination of Khadafy. With that sort of precedent set, anything is possible with Ukraine.
Ukraine can choose to fight or negotiate on mostly Russian terms. They appeared to have made their choice, we shall see how bad it all gets.
Still no official word about what Putin specifically wanted from Ukraine.
Fathertime!
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That's actually the thread *Washington wants WW III*. The thread opens up but when I click on Muzh's post (or page 3), it doesn't work for some reason.
BTW- I accidentally *modified* the thread you quoted. Didn't mean to and 3 of the videos I posted I accidentally took out. >:(
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That's actually the thread *Washington wants WW III*. The thread opens up but when I click on Muzh's post (or page 3), it doesn't work for some reason.
BTW- I accidentally *modified* the thread you quoted. Didn't mean to and 3 of the videos I posted I accidentally took out. >:(
Thanks...I can't open that thread either...something seems to be fouled.
Fathertime!
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We (the USA), actually facilitated the assassination of Khadafy. With that sort of precedent set, anything is possible with Ukraine.
He deserved it. Reagan tried to kill him in 1986 after the Berlin night club bombing. Then came Pan Am - Lockerbie in 1988. So Gaddafi deserved to be assassinated.
As usual, remove a tyrant only to become replaced by turmoil and a multitude of tyrants of a different persuasion.
Gaddafi later terminated his nuclear program. Most contend he did that to gain favor with the West, needing access to their markets. I assert he did that so that he would not become a target of an Al Qaeda overthrow - Al Qaeda would do anything to acquire nuclear weapons.
Still no official word about what Putin specifically wanted from Ukraine.
If we don't know what Russia wants, how can you be sure Ukraine could deliver in a win-win solution. Muzh has asked you several times - what is the "win" for Ukraine?
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And another sign of disrespect for the victims.
Gator - that's the underlying and growing sentiment here. We've all about had a neck full of "who dunnits".
By the shots of puncture marks in the pieces of fuselage I saw on the news here, it's pretty obviously the result of a SAM (they work very much like a cluster bomb at about 50 - 100 yards from the target). Who pulled the trigger (which clearly requires a considerable team, planning and logistical support) is actually of much less concern to me, I'd just like them all to back up for a week and let the independents get the bodies out - given the stance both sides have taken, we are never going to ascertain, with any degree of certainty, who actually fired but you'd be pretty naive to imagine the Uki gov't forces would be so stupid when they have (allegedly) no air opposition that needs taking down. And....if they were proved to have done so, would risk any international support (which in fact is little more than huffing and puffing at this point) they may have garnered so far.
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...I'd just like them all to back up for a week and let the independents get the bodies out
Supposedly the Ukrainian army has flanked the separatists starting at Donetsk all the way to the Russian border. Donetsk is still under rebel control, and the crash site is in the way of a complete encirclement of Donetsk. So your term "them all" is accurate because both sides are engaged around the crash site for an important push.
Not all of the Ukrainians have been indifferent. The local village people were very touched by the crash. The women particularly have shown great respect with prayers, flowers, tributes, etc. The local men have helped; there were news clips of the miners searching last week for bodies.
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Why is the WW III thread inoperative?
....Is this really too far fetched or much closer to home? If so, for what really? Are fat appetite to interfere in everyone's sovereignty?
Let's see Libya is in turmoil, Egypt still is in turmoil, Israel/Gaza, Syria (maybe even Lebanon), Iraq, Sierra Leoni, Somalia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Myannmar, Venezuela, & Sudan. Why the heck did we have to fcok in Ukraine. Must we really?
We already have ebola in Sudan and now have the black plague in China...It must really be time for a serious mankind purge.....
Dangit! How can I forget bout Nigeria!?!? Oh and of course, the other doozie, North Korea, LOL.
http://news.msn.com/world/n-korea-threatens-nuclear-strike-on-white-house
In the meantime, our CIC is much too busy on a fund & fun raising...Rome's burning and the boy is out partying on the westcoast. Love it!!!
Your list omits perhaps the most significant country - Iran. There we had a pro-western tyrant dictator (the Shah) in our pocket, only for Jimmy Carter to drop him like a piece of kaka.
Although we are not complicit in all of the countries making your list, there is a need for POTUS to extinguish some fires.
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Not all of the Ukrainians have been indifferent. The local village people were very touched by the crash. The women particularly have shown great respect with prayers, flowers, tributes, etc. The local men have helped; there were news clips of the miners searching last week for bodies.
You're right - I've noticed that. Kind of reminded me of kindness shown to beaten German troops by everyday Russian womenfolk during WWII.
By all of them, I was referring to the direct combatants
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He deserved it. Reagan tried to kill him in 1986 after the Berlin night club bombing. Then came Pan Am - Lockerbie in 1988. So Gaddafi deserved to be assassinated.
As usual, remove a tyrant only to become replaced by turmoil and a multitude of tyrants of a different persuasion.
I don’t think we aided in the assassination of Ghadafi for that reason, but IF these events (which Libya later took responsibility for and paid billions in damages for)are the criteria for assassinating a leader of a country, then our leader among many others could be on that list.
You seem rather blasé about the ‘turmoil’ in Libya….but less so in Ukraine, of course I understand your bias regarding Ukraine but that doesn’t make this event very much different than we (The USA) have already been promoting elsewhere. We aided rebels and eventually took out Khadafi, who happened to be a Russian ally. Russia has been rather mild in comparison TO THIS POINT. I continue to feel that it would be a better move for Ukraine to negotiate (presuming that is possible) with Russia, as I believe that Russia will step up until it gets what it wants….just as we did in Libya...and the death toll could be very high.
If we don't know what Russia wants, how can you be sure Ukraine could deliver in a win-win solution. Muzh has asked you several times - what is the "win" for Ukraine?
Who said I ‘was sure’? V. Putin has stated what he wanted regarding the federation. Regardless of if it is right or not, Poroshenko hasn’t confirmed or denied what Putin stated publicly....I'm asserting that he would have stated Putin's wishes/demands publicly if they were outrageous at it would have strengthened his position. I've stated numerous times what I believe the ‘win’ could be for Ukraine...as time passes and the stakes change, less of a loss can be construed as a win...especially compared to what it appears is looming.
[size=78%] [/size][/size] Fathertime! [size=78%]
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You seem rather blasé about the ‘turmoil’ in Libya….but less so in Ukraine, of course I understand your bias regarding Ukraine but that doesn’t make this event very much different than we (The USA) have already been promoting elsewhere.
I am not blasé about Libya. The Benghazi killing of our ambassador and three cohorts upset me, especially how it was handled by POTUS and Hillary. To lose an ambassador is more serious than losing a 4-star general.
I do not have the time to research Libya, and I refuse to form a position based on a a less than one-minute news broadcast about Libya. Plus RWD is not the place to discuss Libya.
There are too many hotspots such as Libya. Each is different with different implications. The world is so embroiled that it has been a coon's age since the Federal deficit received any serious coverage.
Bias regarding Ukraine? I am outnumbered in my home.
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I am not blasé about Libya. The Benghazi killing of our ambassador and three cohorts upset me, especially how it was handled by POTUS and Hillary. To lose an ambassador is more serious than losing a 4-star general.
I do not have the time to research Libya, and I refuse to form a position based on a a less than one-minute news broadcast about Libya. Plus RWD is not the place to discuss Libya.
There are too many hotspots such as Libya. Each is different with different implications. The world is so embroiled that it has been a coon's age since the Federal deficit received any serious coverage.
Bias regarding Ukraine? I am outnumbered in my home.
That's because she gets two votes. One for her and one for you.
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FT Who said I ‘was sure’? V. Putin has stated what he wanted regarding the federation. Regardless of if it is right or not, Poroshenko hasn’t confirmed or denied what Putin stated publicly....I'm asserting that he would have stated Putin's wishes/demands publicly if they were outrageous at it would have strengthened his position. I've stated numerous times what I believe the ‘win’ could be for Ukraine...as time passes and the stakes change, less of a loss can be construed as a win...especially compared to what it appears is looming.
FT again id suggest you read more , poroshenko has stated a federation is not acceptable , he has agreed to more autonomy within the oblasts of sorts, but not federation as putin wishes ,
and no , you can find your own links to check that out , lol if you wish to actually know and understand poroshenkos stated position as part of the ceasfire negotiations etc etc for a peacefull resolution to this
one question no one seems to ask is if as putin states he is not resposible for this conflict and does not support it why does he not close the russian border with the southeast of ukraine ?? and why should he[RUSSIA ] be a senior player at the negotiating table ?
SX
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I am not blasé about Libya. The Benghazi killing of our ambassador and three cohorts upset me, especially how it was handled by POTUS and Hillary. To lose an ambassador is more serious than losing a 4-star general.
Well Gator, I wasn't speaking about the American's killed...The turmoil I was talking about the 1000's of dead Libyans.
I do not have the time to research Libya, and I refuse to form a position based on a a less than one-minute news broadcast about Libya. Plus RWD is not the place to discuss Libya.
There are too many hotspots such as Libya. Each is different with different implications. The world is so embroiled that it has been a coon's age since the Federal deficit received any serious coverage.
Well, things like Libya and Syria may not seem important to you in regards to Ukraine, BUT it is highly likely they are very important to the Russians. Although almost everybody here likes to leave that perspective out, I am holding that they (The Russians) probably feel completely entitled to do as they want with Ukraine, as they probably think that is what we (The USA) have been doing in other countries, and nobody stopped us. To say that subjects such as Libya are off limits to discuss as it pertains to the situation in Ukraine is to take an important explanation off the table. I don't think a person can compartmentalize the two countries and conflicts and have the proper perspective to take a strong position for/against Russia, it is all intertwined...IMO.
Bias regarding Ukraine? I am outnumbered in my home.
Well then perhaps it is good you discuss your viewpoints here, rather than with the wife.
Fathertime!
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Ukraine has now mobilized almost its entire national forces. That full mobilization takes place over the next thirty days. My guess is that they will mop up Donetsk and Lugansk within the next month unless Russia comes over. I would also guess that they will create a tremendous force and position it right next to Crimea. Then, I would guess that they will do everything possible to obtain US weaponry.
Anyone who thinks that this war is over with the displacement of Russian terrorists from Eastern Ukraine is not thinking straight. I don't know of any Ukrainian who isn't willing to press for the removal of Russia from Krim.
Of interest, I don't think we've heard one peep from the Crimean contingent who used to be on here stating that Ukraine would cease to exist within six months.
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FT again id suggest you read more , poroshenko has stated a federation is not acceptable , he has agreed to more autonomy within the oblasts of sorts, but not federation as putin wishes ,
and no , you can find your own links to check that out , lol if you wish to actually know and understand poroshenkos stated position as part of the ceasfire negotiations etc etc for a peacefull resolution to this
one question no one seems to ask is if as putin states he is not resposible for this conflict and does not support it why does he not close the russian border with the southeast of ukraine ?? and why should he[RUSSIA ] be a senior player at the negotiating table ?
SX
SX
Yes SX, I realize that Poroshenko doesn't agree about the federation or a deal probably would have already been done. He is in charge of Ukraine. He is seeing the consequences to his people, and knows what could happen down the line and it could be horrific. He is taking a big risk.
Again, he has not refuted how Putin has characterized his wants. Why does Russia get a seat at the negotiating table? I guess because they are Russia. Why has the USA had seats at other sovereign nations negotiating tables? It isn't much different than the animal kingdom I guess, so we (the USA) are acting a little hypocritical IMO....we behave like an animal and then get huffy-puffy when another animal does the same sorta thing.
Fathertime!
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Well Gator, I wasn't speaking about the American's killed...The turmoil I was talking about the 1000's of dead Libyans.
If the number of deaths bother you, you should look to other parts of the world, particularly Africa where undernourishment, disease, armed conflict, etc. exact a large toll.
Well, things like Libya and Syria may not seem important to you....
All of the Middle East is important. Please summarize your solution for stabilizing the entirety of the Middle East. If you can convince me of a viable solution, I will interact with you more. Keep in mind that I lived in Iran and Egypt for two years while working for the UN.
.....in regards to Ukraine, BUT it is highly likely they are very important to the Russians.....I don't think a person can compartmentalize the two countries and conflicts and have the proper perspective to take a strong position for/against Russia, it is all intertwined...IMO.
While we have been critical of your thin understanding of the Big Picture in Ukraine, your understanding of Russian interests in Libya and Syria does give you a better understanding of the even Bigger Picture. So we now appoint you official head of the RWD Libya/Syria Bureau.
Given your expertise, please enlighten us about Russia's goals in Libya and Syria. It would not surprise me that Russia is involved in Syria and Libya not with a humanitarian effort but with the dark goal of restricting natural gas shipments to Europe, thereby propping up the price of Russia's second largest export to this captive customer. Maybe Russia's real reason for wanting Ukraine is to curtail UA plans now underway to frack the large shale formation in eastern Ukraine. If true, maybe the Russians were behind the attack of our Benghazi consulate knowing that Americans were brokering a deal to send to Syrian rebels the weapons captured in Libya.
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If the number of deaths bother you, you should look to other parts of the world, particularly Africa where undernourishment, disease, armed conflict, etc. exact a large toll.
.
We are not responsible for all the world's problems. I’m saying that WE (The USA) have caused much of this havoc in Libya. Given that, it is hypocritical for us to wail about Russia doing something similar in Ukraine.
All of the Middle East is important. Please summarize your solution for stabilizing the entirety of the Middle East. If you can convince me of a viable solution, I will interact with you more. Keep in mind that I lived in Iran and Egypt for two years while working for the UN.
While we have been critical of your thin understanding of the Big Picture in Ukraine, your understanding of Russian interests in Libya and Syria does give you a better understanding of the even Bigger Picture. So we now appoint you official head of the RWD Libya/Syria Bureau.
Given your expertise, please enlighten us about Russia's goals in Libya and Syria. It would not surprise me that Russia is involved in Syria and Libya not with a humanitarian effort but with the dark goal of restricting natural gas shipments to Europe, thereby propping up the price of Russia's second largest export to this captive customer. Maybe Russia's real reason for wanting Ukraine is to curtail UA plans now underway to frack the large shale formation in eastern Ukraine. If true, maybe the Russians were behind the attack of our Benghazi consulate knowing that Americans were brokering a deal to send to Syrian rebels the weapons captured in Libya.
You are free to interact or not to interact. I didn't claim to have a solution to the entire Middle East crisis, besides that is not the subject anyway. Regarding Ukraine, I continue to think that Ukraine should be negotiating creating a federation if that is still possible. It would likely end the bloodshed and everyone could attempt to move on. I think quite a few of the people here (including you) are biased enough to where you have blinded yourself to the potential real solutions. …be that as it may, another temporary solution is for Ukraine to fight its way out of it…I’d be for that, if I thought it would work, but I don’t see it as a solution. It will create lots of dead people, and a potentially wider conflict which is what I'd like to see NOT happen.
Fathertime!
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All of the Middle East is important. Please summarize your solution for stabilizing the entirety of the Middle East. If you can convince me of a viable solution, I will interact with you more. Keep in mind that I lived in Iran and Egypt for two years while working for the UN.
While that is quite impressive and does provide you with a qualified insight, it hardly triumphs FT's credentials. I believe he slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night. ;D
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While that is quite impressive and does provide you with a qualified insight, it hardly triumphs FT's credentials. I believe he slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night. ;D
Very good fp..attack the poster rather then expressing a legit pov on the issue. I'm accustomed to that when people are angry about a differing position. Perhaps you realize that you are incapable of thinking things through well enough to propose possible solutions.
I continue to hold that Ukraine should be negoiating in part because it will lead to a better outcome than fighting.
Fathertime!
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While we have been critical of your thin understanding of the Big Picture in Ukraine, your understanding of Russian interests in Libya and Syria does give you a better understanding of the even Bigger Picture. So we now appoint you official head of the RWD Libya/Syria Bureau.
You throw a wet noddle against the wall and sometimes it sticks. ;)
That doesn't mean he said anything of consequence except some sound bites that were pleasing to your ears.
And then you think I'm being harsh but check out gems like this one:
Again, he has not refuted how Putin has characterized his wants. Why does Russia get a seat at the negotiating table? I guess because they are Russia. Why has the USA had seats at other sovereign nations negotiating tables? It isn't much different than the animal kingdom I guess, so we (the USA) are acting a little hypocritical IMO....we behave like an animal and then get huffy-puffy when another animal does the same sorta thing. Fathertime!
Let me know if you need help locating the irony. 8)
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Very good fp..attack the poster rather then expressing a legit pov on the issue. I'm accustomed to that when people are angry about a differing position. Perhaps you realize that you are incapable of thinking things through well enough to propose possible solutions.
I continue to hold that Ukraine should be negoiating in part because it will lead to a better outcome than fighting.
Fathertime!
LMFAO
Well, please. Give us something with substance.
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Let me know if you need help locating the irony.[/font] 8)
A little to subtle, sir.
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Very good fp..attack the poster rather then expressing a legit pov on the issue. I'm accustomed to that when people are angry about a differing position. Perhaps you realize that you are incapable of thinking things through well enough to propose possible solutions.
I continue to hold that Ukraine should be negoiating in part because it will lead to a better outcome than fighting.
Fathertime!
FT, I not only attacked your posts on the subject, I torpedoed them. Nuclear blast. I gave you ample opportunity to defend your position but yet, you come back with nothing. One can only surmise that it is because you have nothing. You apparently live in some isolated black and white fantasy world of right and wrong. Your only source information of the world events being discussed is what you read on the internet more specifically, this fora. This is in the face of numerous folks, myself included explaining to you the gaping holes in your logic. Yet, you persist. One can only surmise that it is because you love hearing yourself talk aloud in a room full of people who pay you no mind. Your contribution on this subject equates to nothing more than palaver.
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Geeze, FP,
Enjoyed your post, but couldn't you change your Avatar? Its hideous.
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I have given my viewpoint... [gratuitous insult removed].
I continue to believe that Ukraine and the world would be better off with a negotiated agreement regarding a federation. ..it appears you all think it is ridiculous. ..well I think it is ridiculous that you think it is ridiculous...but you are entitled to form your own opinion.
If Ukraine fights and wins you will be right...I don't think that is going to happen.
Fathertime!
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I have given my viewpoint... [gratuitous insult removed].
I continue to believe that Ukraine and the world would be better off with a negotiated agreement regarding a federation. ..it appears you all think it is ridiculous. ..well I think it is ridiculous that you think it is ridiculous...but you are entitled to form your own opinion.
If Ukraine fights and wins you will be right...I don't think that is going to happen.
Fathertime!
The problem with your viewpoint is that it espouses what you've been rallying against in other threads, namely the imposition of a foreign power into a smaller one.
OR is it that for you a larger foreign power like Russia should impose its will over Ukraine but the US should NOT impose its will over, let's say Guatemala?
OR, is it that you cannot grasp what a federation of the eastern oblasts will do to Ukraine? I think this is it. You have very limited understanding of the geopolitical situations in Eastern Europe that such a simple concept as the federation of eastern oblasts will create a frozen conflict?
OR, maybe you understand this AND relish seeing that part of the world involved in a frozen conflict?
Sick
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The problem with your viewpoint is that it espouses what you've been rallying against in other threads, namely the imposition of a foreign power into a smaller one.
OR is it that for you a larger foreign power like Russia should impose its will over Ukraine but the US should NOT impose its will over, let's say Guatemala?
I recognize that Russia is doing something similar to what we have been doing....so if we were to isolate their action I would condemn it. They are committing a foul. That said, I don't believe that we can/should isolate their action. I continue to believe that it has to be looked at through the lens of worldwide events, including US actions...if one does that it is easier to see the Russian position.
OR, is it that you cannot grasp what a federation of the eastern oblasts will do to Ukraine? I think this is it. You have very limited understanding of the geopolitical situations in Eastern Europe that such a simple concept as the federation of eastern oblasts will create a frozen conflict?
I don't think creating a federation would create a frozen conflict. If indeed the pro Ukrainians are the majority in the Eastern Oblasts, and yet they have more autonomy...what about that creates a frozen conflict? I'm listening as is most others, so why is it that you believe there will be a frozen conflict? I believe it will be a military rout if Ukraine doesn't give in to some of Russia's demands...even if they shouldn't be making them. so assuming your 'frozen conflict' scenario is correct..what is worse that or a Russian invasion?
Fathertime!
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A federation would create a frozen conflict. The leader of the federation would be an oligarch close to Moscow, chosen by Moscow, and Moscow's policies therefore would be implemented in a sovereign country. That is why Kyiv resists it. The end result would be as it is now.
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BTW, the writing is on the wall. Unless Russia is willing to send troops, this conflict will be over fairly soon, with Ukraine's ATO prevailing. The loss of life that has occurred, and will in the future occur to achieve this result is tragic and was unnecessary.
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I’m saying that WE (The USA) have caused much of this havoc in Libya. Given that, it is hypocritical for us to wail about Russia doing something similar in Ukraine.
What the US did in Libya: Diplomatic initiatives, support of the UN-declared no-fly zone, humanitarian aid, negotiation with rebels, a very small number of bombing missions, recognition of the Transitional National Council (TNC) as a legitimate authority to represent Libya, and giving to the TNC billions of dollars of previously frozen Gaddafi funds.
This "caused much of this havoc in Libya?" No.
This is "similar" to what Russia is doing in Ukraine? No.
Please put on your analytical hat and show me how Russian actions regarding Ukraine are comparable.
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A federation would create a frozen conflict. The leader of the federation would be an oligarch close to Moscow, chosen by Moscow, and Moscow's policies therefore would be implemented in a sovereign country. That is why Kyiv resists it. The end result would be as it is now.
In the case of a federation, why would a oligarch close to Moscow be elected in a region that you all seem to believe supports Ukraine sovereignty and ideals? That seems like a giant leap to me. If there is a large subset of the population in the region that does lean Russian, it doesn't seem too unreasonable to let their voices be heard and if some policies are pro-Russian that doesn't seem like that big a deal, so long as they aren't anti-Ukrainian.
All of this would be a better outcome for those that support Ukraine, than a full Russian invasion...and that appears to be on the table now that no negotiations are happening.
Fathertime!
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What the US did in Libya: Diplomatic initiatives, support of the UN-declared no-fly zone, humanitarian aid, negotiation with rebels, a very small number of bombing missions, recognition of the Transitional National Council (TNC) as a legitimate authority to represent Libya, and giving to the TNC billions of dollars of previously frozen Gaddafi funds.
This "caused much of this havoc in Libya?" No.
This is "similar" to what Russia is doing in Ukraine? No.
Please put on your analytical hat and show me how Russian actions regarding Ukraine are comparable.
You can couch what we did in Libya as ‘humanitarian mission’ but that is not how it was widely seen…we took out the leader of the country….
--we bombed Libyan air defenses
---installed a no fly zone
----did just enough bombing and provided just enough military assistance to assassinate the country’s leader….
Russia hasn't done these things…YET…but given recent events I wouldn’t be surprised if they feel entitled to do any/all of what we/NATO did.
Fathertime!
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In the case of a federation, why would a oligarch close to Moscow be elected in a region that you all seem to believe supports Ukraine sovereignty and ideals? That seems like a giant leap to me. If there is a large subset of the population in the region that does lean Russian, it doesn't seem too unreasonable to let their voices be heard and if some policies are pro-Russian that doesn't seem like that big a deal, so long as they aren't anti-Ukrainian.
All of this would be a better outcome for those that support Ukraine, than a full Russian invasion...and that appears to be on the table now that no negotiations are happening.
Fathertime!
Your question, in and of itself is naive and is indicative of your lack of knowledge of the region, who the politicians are, how they are elected, and how this is all related to Euromaidan.
Here is a little background.
http://ukrainianweek.com/Columns/50/60072 (http://ukrainianweek.com/Columns/50/60072)
http://time.com/10032/ukraine-donbass-yanukovych-kurkov/ (http://time.com/10032/ukraine-donbass-yanukovych-kurkov/)
This one discusses federalization
http://ukrainianweek.com/Columns/50/115483
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I think that after the dust on this conflict settles it will be interesting to see how many people in the eastern oblasts look longingly towards Moscow. I think after all the negative effects of Putin's manufactured war are tallied up that many will find a renewed enthusiasm for Kiev and the Ukrainian State. That is my hunch.
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Your question, in and of itself is naive and is indicative of your lack of knowledge of the region, who the politicians are, how they are elected, and how this is all related to Euromaidan.
Here is a little background.
http://ukrainianweek.com/Columns/50/60072 (http://ukrainianweek.com/Columns/50/60072)
http://time.com/10032/ukraine-donbass-yanukovych-kurkov/ (http://time.com/10032/ukraine-donbass-yanukovych-kurkov/)
The links are fine, but what a silly condescending response!
If you have no faith that a Ukrainian govt., with Ukrainian control can conduct a fair election in the Eastern reaches then maybe it isn't a bad idea to just give it up altogether and allow Russia to deal with it. If by some off chance the pro-Russian policies prevail in a fair election and it stops the violence then that isn't a bad thing.
If given a choice between negotiating a federated Ukraine and having a chance to contain/influence the local govt., or a Russian invasion and a lot of dead bodies…Which is better? I’d take my chances with the federation, and do everything I could to make it an election that actually represents the view of the people.
Fathertime!
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The links are fine, but what a silly condescending response!
If you have no faith that a Ukrainian govt., with Ukrainian control can conduct a fair election in the Eastern reaches then maybe it isn't a bad idea to just give it up altogether and allow Russia to deal with it. If by some off chance the pro-Russian policies prevail in a fair election and it stops the violence then that isn't a bad thing.
If given a choice between negotiating a federated Ukraine and having a chance to contain/influence the local govt., or a Russian invasion and a lot of dead bodies…Which is better? I’d take my chances with the federation, and do everything I could to make it an election that actually represents the view of the people.
Fathertime!
It is not condescending. It is clear, by your response, that you have little understanding of what is occurring, and why.
I edited my post to add another link. If you want to know why Russia wants federalization, it is a good link for some basic information.
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Isthmus,
While I may agree with you, don't forget that the brainwashing of Russian TV stations and media are, for the most part, the only media the older generation gets to see or hear in the 'occupied' zones. One of the first things that the DPR and LPR leadership did was quashed a free press. It will take years before people will come to grips with what was done to them.
And I am amazed at the number of my Russian friends who believe every thing that comes out of Moscow.
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I think that after the dust on this conflict settles it will be interesting to see how many people in the eastern oblasts look longingly towards Moscow. I think after all the negative effects of Putin's manufactured war are tallied up that many will find a renewed enthusiasm for Kiev and the Ukrainian State. That is my hunch.
In the liberated cities, the population has been largely pro Ukraine. However, some of that may be a holdover of a Soviet mentality (depending on their age), some may be based on the fact these cities, unlike Donetsk, are not overwhelmingly ethnic Russian, and some may be because of the lawlessness and ruthlessness of the terrorists (confirmed again by a UN report released today).
Ukrainian forces and the terrorists are both using GRAD's, which is killing civilians. That will be the risk for the Ukrainian military.
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It is not condescending. It is clear, by your response, that you have little understanding of what is occurring, and why.
I edited my post to add another link. If you want to know why Russia wants federalization, it is a good link for some basic information.
Obviously the Russian's think federalization would be better than losing influence in all of Ukraine. Interesting, one of the links actually says it may be better to let the regions go rather than having a federation. If Ukraine doesn't negotiate that might be the way it goes. It is obviously Ukraine's choice...at least for the moment. I've mentioned I think that Ukraine should negotiate and accept a federation which is being criticized....so what do you think Ukraine should do? It would seem you and those that have been critical all would prefer Ukraine to fight....is that right?
Fathertime!
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By saying it would be better to let the regions go, the writer is telling you that federalization will destroy Ukraine.
The reason Putin wants federalization is because it will weaken Kyiv to such a degree the state will eventually disintegrate. That is why Ukrainians reject it. So, you saying this is a "solution" for Ukraine suggests you are no friend to Ukrainians. This tactic has been used by Moscow against Ukrainians throughout our history. Most Ukrainians will know that history, or at least parts of it. You have dismissed this as unimportant, but it is, in fact, very important, in terms of Ukraine's ability to survive as an independent nation.
As for "letting them go", the problem is the majority of the populations in that region are ethnic Ukrainians. Despite what their (former) Muscovite leaders have proclaimed*, they largely have no desire to become a part of Russia, or to separate from Ukraine.
At this point, the Ukrainian army is close to victory. So, unless Russia invades Ukraine, what I, or anyone else thinks, is moot.
*As the Ukrainian army takes more territory, the "self appointed" Muscovites have abandoned Donetsk and allegedly gone back to Russia.
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For any wishing to see the perspective from the Russian/Separatist perspective, here is a good website:
www.icorpus.ru
I found the site to be more about military engagement and less about ideals. But I guess when you are getting your head handed to you, any morale boost can be a balm. I especially liked the declaration against swearing.
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I think that for residents of eastern Ukraine, media propaganda will play second fiddle to what they actually see and experience on the ground. It is imperative that UA forces minimise civilian casualties.
I don't think UA should accept Federalisation just because Moscow manufactured a war in Donetsk. UA forces are now better organised and winning back territory. They should be pressing for victory. That will leave Putin with a difficult decision to make ...
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What the US did in Libya: Diplomatic initiatives, support of the UN-declared no-fly zone, humanitarian aid, negotiation with rebels, a very small number of bombing missions, recognition of the Transitional National Council (TNC) as a legitimate authority to represent Libya, and giving to the TNC billions of dollars of previously frozen Gaddafi funds.
This "caused much of this havoc in Libya?" No.
This is "similar" to what Russia is doing in Ukraine? No.
Please put on your analytical hat and show me how Russian actions regarding Ukraine are comparable.
I'm not to pretend I know all about the Libyan Assault but please bear With me on my take. As far as I'm concerned (and I've written about it here before) this is my countrys darkest Foreign entanglement since the Viking times.
They made this documentary about the bombing of Libya here, and it's one of a rushed decision to commit to bombing targets there that were very controversial. Even With Our small military (pop. 5 million) Norway dropped 10% of all bombs on Libya back then. There were interviews of the F-16 airmen, all of course Professional and educated in the US and did as they were told, drop bombs on a country that never did us any wrong.
What is Libya? As I understand it, historically not at nation state as we understand it but rather a Collection of tribes, many times in opposition to each other, kinda like the former Yougoslavia. Gadaffi held it together. Sure, not a Nice guy, but who really is? Sometimes a country or region does better With a strong leader than left in a vacuum. Same With Russia. They need a strong leader like Putin or it's a colour revolution funded by Washington and then Russia end up just like another big lapdog like Britain. Next in line.... China.
I've said it before and I'll say it again.... the world needs a Balance. The unipolar world of US hegemony cannot stand. It's never worked before and it will not work now, no matter how exceptional Obama has made his subjects feel.
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So you believe the world needs a "strong leader" who imprisons those opposed to him, supports state control of the media, and annexes regions of neighbouring democracies, contrary to international treaties?
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At this point, the Ukrainian army is close to victory. So, unless Russia invades Ukraine, what I, or anyone else thinks, is moot.
No courage to take a position publicly? Obviously it is moot...but still you have a position and are just afraid to state it...
I think that for residents of eastern Ukraine, media propaganda will play second fiddle to what they actually see and experience on the ground. It is imperative that UA forces minimise civilian casualties.
I don't think UA should accept Federalisation just because Moscow manufactured a war in Donetsk. UA forces are now better organised and winning back territory. They should be pressing for victory. That will leave Putin with a difficult decision to make ...
It will be a gutsy position for Ukraine to take Isthmus...very risky too....Russia will have a difficult decision to make....If I were Putin I would have left it alone after Crimea....that said, I don't think he is bluffing. It shall be interesting to see if a third party comes in with a feasible last second compromise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co5xVHsMRV0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co5xVHsMRV0)
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No courage to take a position publicly? Obviously it is moot...but still you have a position and are just afraid to state it...
Why would I take a position that is likely not to occur? Should I also speculate on how many angels dance on the head of a pin?
If Russia invades, I will have a position at that time. As it stands, Ukraine will retake the territory.
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President Poroshenko has requested a meeting in Belarus among Ukraine's representative, Leonid Kuchma, the OSCE, and Russia's ambassador to Ukraine, Mikhail Zurabov. The meeting is to discuss the release of all hostages held by the terrorists and OSCE access to the crash site.
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Poroshenko's move is a clever delaying tactic.
1. Every day that territory gets smaller. Donbass is now cut off. Lugansk is almost cut off. Ukraine is now resupplying their border choke hold leaving only one access point into Russia - that is Russia Donetsk.
2. It would look very bad for Russia to enter Ukraine while a parley was occurring.
3. There is no desire, on the part of the Russian forces to release any hostages, as they are the only safety net to keep the Russian combatants alive.
4. The various parties that want to inspect the crash site are going to have unlimited access to it in the next week, probably, anyway, as almost the entire area is now under Ukraine's control.
I would be surprised if Russia bites, unless it is accompanied by a mutual cease fire. And, of course, it is a cease fire that cannot be enforced because the Russians in country answer to no one.
Yes, it is a clever tactic that will put the Russians in a further bad light. In the interim, the noose gets tighter. Only a true invasion by Putin will stop Ukraine from winning.
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Why would I take a position that is likely not to occur? Should I also speculate on how many angels dance on the head of a pin?
We are not talking about angels on the head of a pin.
You seem awfully critical of other positions within the safety of having NO POSITION yourself. Through all the links you have posted (some of which are helpful) I would think that you would have some original thoughts of your own. To this point, I have gathered that you are against a Ukrainian federation. I think it is funny that you won't state your position though....obviously you are afraid to...it's ok then...just expect to reminded of it from time to time. You know that a negotiation of a Ukrainian federation is my position...I think it can be done and beats the alternative....but hey, maybe Russia won't invade...just create havoc for years to come...but that doesn't seem very good either.
Fathertime!
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My position is all over this forum. Ukraine was the victim of a proxy invasion, intent on dismantling the Ukrainian state for its own purposes. Ukraine needs a united country rather than fiefdoms.
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My position is all over this forum. Ukraine was the victim of a proxy invasion, intent on dismantling the Ukrainian state for its own purposes. Ukraine needs a united country rather than fiefdoms.
Ok....so you think the way to get there is to fight the Separatists, and then possibly the full force of Russia. Am I stating your position fairly?
I think the way to get the best outcome is to try to negotiate and accept a federation....then make sure it is done as fair as possible.
Fathertime!
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Why would a federation, which would weaken the Ukrainian state, be beneficial to Ukraine and Ukrainians?
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It is not condescending. It is clear, by your response, that you have little understanding of what is occurring, and why.
I edited my post to add another link. If you want to know why Russia wants federalization, it is a good link for some basic information.
agree ,100%
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Ok....so you think the way to get there is to fight the Separatists, and then possibly the full force of Russia. Am I stating your position fairly?
I think the way to get the best outcome is to try to negotiate and accept a federation....then make sure it is done as fair as possible.
Fathertime!
Why would a federation, which would weaken the Ukrainian state, be beneficial to Ukraine and Ukrainians?
Did I state your position correctly? Since you won't come right out and state your position, once I know that I stated it correctly we can discuss the pros and cons of each.
Fathertime!
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In the case of a federation, why would a oligarch close to Moscow be elected in a region that you all seem to believe supports Ukraine sovereignty and ideals? That seems like a giant leap to me. If there is a large subset of the population in the region that does lean Russian, it doesn't seem too unreasonable to let their voices be heard and if some policies are pro-Russian that doesn't seem like that big a deal, so long as they aren't anti-Ukrainian.
All of this would be a better outcome for those that support Ukraine, than a full Russian invasion...and that appears to be on the table now that no negotiations are happening.
Fathertime!
I said it before and I'll say it again, you have no farging clue about the geopolitics of Eastern Europe. It is obvious by the statement you just made.
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Ok....so you think the way to get there is to fight the Separatists, and then possibly the full force of Russia. Am I stating your position fairly?
I think the way to get the best outcome is to try to negotiate and accept a federation....then make sure it is done as fair as possible.
Fathertime!
Is this your philosophy in life?
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/BOHICA_zpsd0c15064.gif)
Because it surely sounds this is what you want for Ukraine.
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this conflict will be over fairly soon, with Ukraine's ATO prevailing.
If true, Putin is going to have to make some bold decisions in the near future. I believe Putin is a man who will finish what he started. I also believe he cares about what is written about himself in history. He doesn't want to be known in history as the Russian leader who lost Ukraine. Trying to start a civil war in Ukraine isn't working. He'll have to send in the Russian troops under the pretext he's protecting ethnic Russians from the fascists.
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Your list omits perhaps the most significant country - Iran. There we had a pro-western tyrant dictator (the Shah) in our pocket, only for Jimmy Carter to drop him like a piece of kaka....
I purposely left off Iran since the installation of Reza Shah happened shortly after WW II, and the ensuing revolt removed our boy from their nation in '79. The present day Iran doesn't have any current conflict internally with the exception perhaps of the pending nuclear reactor disposition.
But just as Israel's Operation Orchard did to Syria, I'm certain if the present deal with Washington doesn't pan out, another unlawful attack will be levied by our friends in the Middle East.
...Although we are not complicit in all of the countries making your list, there is a need for POTUS to extinguish some fires.
I agree but he's too busy these days with more important things on his agenda. :rolleyes:
But what I did left out was the former Yugoslavia (Kosovo, Albania, Bosnia). Wonderful we did for these regions since we are currently finding out, almost 20 years of supporting this regime change, both financially and militarily, those lovable KLA folks we armed were actually doing some pretty funky things during *their fight for independence.*
http://www.newsweek.com/kosovo-signs-organ-harvesting-during-war-261896
>>After a three-year investigation, the EU-led task force said there was, however enough evidence to prosecute former leaders of the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) for war crimes against the ethnic Serb and Roma populations of Kosovo during the conflict.
The investigation was prompted by a 2011 report by Council of Europe member Dick Marty that accused senior KLA commanders of involvement in the smuggling of Serb prisoners into northern Albania and the removal of their organs for sale.<<
The bottom line with my point is - we need to stop spreading democracy unto our world one nation at a time as though it's no one else's business but ours.
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If true, Putin is going to have to make some bold decisions in the near future. I believe Putin is a man who will finish what he started. I also believe he cares about what is written about himself in history. He doesn't want to be known in history as the Russian leader who lost Ukraine. Trying to start a civil war in Ukraine isn't working. He'll have to send in the Russian troops under the pretext he's protecting ethnic Russians from the fascists.
billy, i actully think it is the US/EU &UN that will need to make the bold decisions in the near future
putin has already displayed bold decisions since feb
you dont hear any talk about crimea much now from those bodies above ?
his invasion and taking crimea was pretty bold , not much happened as a result of that ,
given he has escalated the conflict to date , he has made his decisions and true style is following through with them , adjusting as he goes
it is the west that must make the bold decision of how to counter him , little or nothing responses to date have only encouraged him to go harder for his goal imho
facts on the ground show the evidence of this so far , it has only been ukraine who has really stood up to him & continues to do so largely alone
SX
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Is this your philosophy in life?
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/BOHICA_zpsd0c15064.gif)
Because it surely sounds this is what you want for Ukraine.
REally? Given your avatar it looks to me that this is your slogan.
Although you are also a little to afraid to state your position, it appears you would like for Ukraine to fight. Considering your great 'knowledge' I believe that is the wrong way to go....You can already see the consequences daily with the mounting dead...I think it would have been better for Ukraine to federate.
Fathertime!
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FT
Although you are also a little to afraid to state your position, it appears you would like for Ukraine to fight. Considering your great 'knowledge' I believe that is the wrong way to go....You can already see the consequences daily with the mounting dead...I think it would have been better for Ukraine to federate.
FT ukraine has no other choice but to fight while trying to use negotiations to bring this to a halt
what did crimea show ?? if you dont fight , the facts on the ground will occur around you while you try to quietly resist and negotiate, russia established control in crimea because ukraine was not prepared to fight at that stage , neither mentally or militarily even governance wise it was weakened
crimea is now annexed =gone ,
ukraine learned a valued lesson there , hence poroshenko is not prepared to repeat it again anytime soon
if you are not prepared to defend your country and stand up for what is right then dont expect others to help/support you
this is all basic stuff , it should be easily understandable to most people , no one wants deaths on either side , but one man has the power to stop it , that is putin
SX
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Ok....so you think the way to get there is to fight the Separatists, and then possibly the full force of Russia. Am I stating your position fairly?
I think the way to get the best outcome is to try to negotiate and accept a federation....then make sure it is done as fair as possible.
Fathertime!
Accepting a "federation" as Moscow wishes would be almost the same as laying down arms and inviting the separatists to take over Kiev right away.
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FT
FT ukraine has no other choice but to fight while trying to use negotiations to bring this to a halt
That is a sensible response. Most won't take any position at all. CNN is reporting that Ukraine is using Short Range Ballistic missiles now....and sanctions are stepped up for whatever that is worth.... Russia could have had Crimea without all of this destruction and nobody was going to do much about it....I would have left it at that...this is going to end badly for everybody unless some sort of negotiation take place soon.
There is going to be a lot more deaths, we shall see if it is all worthwhile and for who.
Accepting a "federation" as Moscow wishes would be almost the same as laying down arms and inviting the separatists to take over Kiev right away.
Well AC, that seems to be what a few people are implying...It doesn't seem it would have to be that way...we may eventually find out.
Fathertime!
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Well AC, that seems to be what a few people are implying...It doesn't seem it would have to be that way...we may eventually find out.
No, it does seem it would have to be that way. If Ukraine had strong democratic institutions throughout the country, you could assume this. It does not. It is coming out of over 70 years of destruction and totalitarian rule where most anyone with a brain was executed or marginalized. Its nomenklatura seized the assets of the country and continue to rule with little regard for the population it is supposed to serve. A federation would exacerbate that. That is why the Russians want it. A weak and corrupt Ukraine is to Russia's advantage.
The Euromaidan activists understood why integrating with Europe is their best chance for a normal life. That is the only solution, at least short term (one generation, at least) for Ukraine.
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FT
this copy below from an article sums it up , pretty much as bo and others have stated on here for some time
SX
Why does Russia want Ukraine to adopt a federal system?
Since pro-Russia separatists seized government buildings in eastern Ukraine, almost certainly with Kremlin support, Moscow has centered on a big demand to end the crisis that it is also partly responsible for creating : Ukraine should adopt a federal system.
The reason Moscow wants this is that, in the current system, Ukraine's pro-Western government might not be very inclined to cooperate with Moscow. In a federal Ukrainian system, regional governments will have much more autonomy and power, meaning that Moscow can get what it wants by simply calling up pro-Russian regional governors in Ukraine's typically pro-Russian east.
These eastern regions have lots of important natural resources, such as coal. They also have factories that produce essential military equipment for Russia. So if Russia can count on keeping them solidly pro-Russian by forcing Ukraine to adopt a federal system, that may well be enough to appease Moscow. This could ultimately worsen Ukraine's already-severe political divide between west and east, by allowing the country's pro-Russia and pro-Europe socio-political factions to move even further apart rather than finally coming together.
http://www.vox.com/cards/ukraine-everything-you-need-to-know/why-does-russia-want-ukraine-to-adopt-a-federal-system
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Ultimately, what do we have left of "Novorossiya"? A few pockets still held by mercenaries and a few local social outcasts. They don't even control the majority of the territory and once the terrorists are driven out the population is happy to see the "freaks" go. Unless Russia invades, the small pockets of armed resistance will either flee or die. It is only a matter of time and how much damage they will do in the meantime. Both Novorossiya and the fallback of making Ukraine a decentralized federation are stillborn.
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Kiev would be crazy to accept forced 'Federalisation' (aka capitulation) right now. There will be a heavy cost for Putin and Russia if this Donetsk debacle degenerates into an out and out Russian invasion of Ukraine. There will be a heavy economic, political and diplomatic fall out, so heavy that Putin's regime may not see the end of the war.
People keep forgetting that this attack on Ukraine will eventually severely strain relations between Moscow and other ex-USSR States who are all watching and thinking 'If they can do this to their closest relatives the Ukrainians, what might they do to us then?'
Rather than re-creating a type of Soviet Union again, I think Putin's Ukraine blunder will make sure it never comes to fruition. Minsk and Astana would be looking for potential exit strategies regarding the Customs Union and ways to diffuse Russian influence in Belarus and Kazakhstan respectively ...
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Meanwhile, a rally in support of federalization is scheduled for August 17 in Novosibirsk, the RF.
People will gather to demand broad powers for regional authorities.
It's people's legitimate right to determine their region's future and the government must respect it, organizers say.
The Region's separation from the RF is not on the agenda, the ultimate goal is to create the Siberian republic within the administrative borders of the region and tame power-hungry and money-grabbing Moscow.
(http://rufabula.com/media/upload/images/2014/07/28/image_2.730.jpg)
Sweet sweet kisses so tender, always will return to sender like a :cluebat:
a boom-a-boomerang ... ;D
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Meanwhile, a rally in support of federalization is scheduled for August 17 in Novosibirsk, the RF.
People will gather to demand broad powers for regional authorities.
It's people's legitimate right to determine their region's future and the government must respect it, organizers say.
The Region's separation from the RF is not on the agenda, the ultimate goal is to create the Siberian republic within the administrative borders of the region and tame power-hungry and money-grabbing Moscow.
This is probably a very complicated issue. It sounds as if there is a movement to decentralize the government of interior Russia, and meanwhile Putin wants to resurrect the Warsaw pact with more Moscow control of its neighbors.
How does this compare with the states rights in the U. S.?
In the US the issue of States Rights has been long debated, and even led to a bloody civil war (!861-1865). Racial equality was a states rights issue long after the civil war. Today the key issues are gay marriages, abortions, death penalty, legalization of marijuana, etc.
The US Federal government has been assuming more and more power ever since the Civil War. While President Ronald Reagan temporarily reversed the trend, the pendulum has now swung the other way, providing more and more power to a growing Federal government.
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An interesting piece from Der Spiegel
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/a-trip-to-the-site-of-the-crash-of-flight-mh-17-a-983268.html
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This is probably a very complicated issue. It sounds as if there is a movement to decentralize the government of interior Russia, and meanwhile Putin wants to resurrect the Warsaw pact with more Moscow control of its neighbors.
The idea of creating the Independent Republic of Siberia has a long history and dates back to the late 19th- early 20th centuries. It was born in 1918 and existed for a short time, only 4 months.
This summer's pro-federalization campaign is organized by the leaders of the National-Bolshevik platform to demand an end to Moscow 'robbing' funds from the region's budget. Members of the ''Siberian Republic 1918'' movement and Autonomous Nationalists say they will join the rally.
When the campaign first appeared on the Internet Moscow was quick to point the finger at Washington and Ukrainian oligarch I. Kolomoisky who, they believe, is working behind the scene to try to destabilize the region.
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REally? Given your avatar it looks to me that this is your slogan.
Although you are also a little to afraid to state your position, it appears you would like for Ukraine to fight. Considering your great 'knowledge' I believe that is the wrong way to go....You can already see the consequences daily with the mounting dead...I think it would have been better for Ukraine to federate.
Fathertime!
LMFAO
You definitely are a ball-buster.
I bet you got slapped a lot in school because of this attitude, didn't you?
:ROFL:
You want to hear the truth regarding what I want?
You can't handle the truth!!
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No, it does seem it would have to be that way. If Ukraine had strong democratic institutions throughout the country, you could assume this. It does not. It is coming out of over 70 years of destruction and totalitarian rule where most anyone with a brain was executed or marginalized. Its nomenklatura seized the assets of the country and continue to rule with little regard for the population it is supposed to serve. A federation would exacerbate that. That is why the Russians want it. A weak and corrupt Ukraine is to Russia's advantage.
The Euromaidan activists understood why integrating with Europe is their best chance for a normal life. That is the only solution, at least short term (one generation, at least) for Ukraine.
I would like to nominate Boe to be canonized for her unselfish and saint-like quest of trying to educate the uneducatable.
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I would like to nominate Boe to be canonized for her unselfish and saint-like quest of trying to educate the uneducatable.
id second that nomination ;)
not only here but elswhere ,
SX
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This is what foreign funding has wrought -
Alexei, a 28-year-old historian, was walking down the street in his home town, Donetsk, a couple of weeks ago when armed men from the “Vostok” battalion stopped him, bundled him into their car and drove off.
The incident was the start of a surreal week. Alexei had become the latest Donetsk resident to be abducted by pro-Russian separatists who have controlled the city since April. There followed six days of forced labour. He was brought to a rebel checkpoint in Pervomaiske, a small village northwest of Donetsk, and forced to dig trenches, fill sandbags and, occasionally, peel potatoes. He twice came under heavy shelling by Ukrainian troops, who were stationed close by.
Alexei is fairly forgiving of his captors. “At least they didn’t beat me up,” he says. They also fed him regularly and gave him cigarettes. People he knows who were seized by a different rebel unit – the Russian Orthodox Army – were physically abused and kept in a damp, dark cellar, while he slept in the relative comfort of an abandoned cottage.
Alexei’s story is not an isolated case. A UN report this week said eastern Ukraine was seeing a “total breakdown of law and order”, and accused armed groups of instituting “a reign of fear and terror”. The insurgents, it said, were continuing to abduct, detain, torture and execute people kept as hostages, exercising their power over the population “in raw and brutal ways”.
And the people of Donetsk have a new danger to contend with: intense fighting on the outskirts between rebel units and Ukrainian government troops, who have made tangible gains in the past two weeks. Every night the boom of shelling reverberates around the city. Every morning residents wake to find buildings ruined by bombardments that do not discriminate between combatants and civilians. The death toll is rising.
Donetsk has totally changed since the last time I was here two months ago. Then, it was hard to believe this city of 1m souls was at the centre of one of the worst east-west crises since the cold war. Its beautifully landscaped parks were full of people enjoying the spring sunshine. Outdoor cafés were overflowing: shops and markets were doing a roaring trade. People dismissed the rebels who had seized Donetsk’s regional government building in April as a bunch of clowns.
Not any more. The insurgents now provoke fear, not ridicule. Some of them have exploited the total absence of any police force to steal cars and loot shops. Vigilante justice rules: Alexei’s supposed offence was drinking beer in public.
Tens of thousands have fled the city. The railway station swarms with hundreds of residents queueing for hours to get a ticket out of here. The city centre is devoid of people. Shops are boarded up: many ATMs have run out of cash. The circus-like atmosphere has also gone. The first wave of rebels – small-time activists and romantics who dreamt for years of union with Mother Russia – has been pushed aside by professionals from Moscow. Igor Strelkov, the rebels’ military commander, and Vladimir Antyufeyev, their security chief, are both Russian citizens. The latter used to be head of internal security in Transnistria, the Russian-backed breakaway region in Moldova.
Meanwhile, the barricades of tyres, barbed wire and sandbags that surrounded the occupied government building have been cleared, and the interior smartened up. Even the lifts work now. But popular disquiet with the rebel regime is widespread, even if still expressed mainly behind closed doors. A common graffito is a portrait of Mr Strelkov with a gun to his head and the words “Just Do It”.
Alexei escaped his captors by spinning an elaborate ruse. They thought, wrongly, that he was a drug addict. So he told them that, if they released him, he would cook them some crystal meth. He was released on condition he brought them the meth – but never returned.
He says about 10 per cent of men abducted by the rebels are persuaded to join the insurgency. That was never going to happen to Alexei. “I was worried they’d find out I was completely against them, that I support a united Ukraine,” he said. He contemplated running away to Ukrainian-controlled territory but feared being taken for a spy.
Since he was set free, the Pervomaiske checkpoint has been destroyed and the area is now controlled by Ukrainian troops. How does he assess the rebels’ chances now? “This whole thing will peter out soon,” Alexei says, “as soon as Russia stops paying them.”
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/ef1f72b8-17cd-11e4-b842-00144feabdc0.html#axzz399spPgbX
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Here's the graffiti that the article refers to:
(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtqIxbbCUAEK6zZ.jpg)
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The Euromaidan activists understood why integrating with Europe is their best chance for a normal life. That is the only solution, at least short term (one generation, at least) for Ukraine.
The problem with this is that it will take more than one generation for Ukraine to have a chance to integrate with the EU. Anything else that was told is a blatant lie.
Even the politicians who were behind Euromaidan will admit that joining the EU will take Ukraine a minimum of 20 to 30 years. For the short term the contract with Russia was sufficient, for the longer term direction towards the EU would always be the way Ukraine wishes to go, and also what the EU is aiming for.
Currently the EU has economic trouble (today a bank in Portugal needs 5 billion Eur to be saved) and a lot of cheap workforce with Polish, Bulgarian and Romanian people migrating to the richer areas. In 20 years they will be at a higher level and new cheap labour is needed. By that time Ukraine would be a good source.
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Shadow,
For someone who understands the actions of nations, as you do, you certainly only show one side of your knowledge. All you say is generally true about the transition taking 20 -30 years. Probably less now that the world is interested in Ukraine's affairs. BUT, Russia has taken an active role preventing Ukraine from any movement out of the Russian sphere of influence since 1991. I don't need to remind everyone about that Very Active Role.
Why should five years from now be any different with Russia? You don't live in Ukraine. I have lived there within the last year. These people have no desire to be a vassal state to Russia any more. And now, Russia is public enemy number 1.
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Shadow,
For someone who understands the actions of nations, as you do, you certainly only show one side of your knowledge. All you say is generally true about the transition taking 20 -30 years. Probably less now that the world is interested in Ukraine's affairs. BUT, Russia has taken an active role preventing Ukraine from any movement out of the Russian sphere of influence since 1991. I don't need to remind everyone about that Very Active Role.
Why should five years from now be any different with Russia? You don't live in Ukraine. I have lived there within the last year. These people have no desire to be a vassal state to Russia any more. And now, Russia is public enemy number 1.
The idea of being a vassal state is not what Ukraine could have been. The problem is that Ukrainians have somehow lost the idea of working together with everyone, which they are perfectly capable of.
Russia was, and probably given the chance still is, willing to have close ties with the EU as well, it being a large market for their export as well as a large supplier. In general there would be no reason to deny Ukraine relations.
Why Russia objected to the infamous trade agreement? Because it is linked to demands like scaling down pensions and other government provisions that will hurt those already in a bad situation. Also the current funds are demanding measures that will cause the normal people some hardship, without the civil war that would be already a lot clearer. Which is one more reason why one may think that this civil war is beneficial to the govenrment.
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The idea of being a vassal state is not what Ukraine could have been. The problem is that Ukrainians have somehow lost the idea of working together with everyone, which they are perfectly capable of.
Russia was, and probably given the chance still is, willing to have close ties with the EU as well, it being a large market for their export as well as a large supplier. In general there would be no reason to deny Ukraine relations.
Why Russia objected to the infamous trade agreement? Because it is linked to demands like scaling down pensions and other government provisions that will hurt those already in a bad situation. Also the current funds are demanding measures that will cause the normal people some hardship, without the civil war that would be already a lot clearer. Which is one more reason why one may think that this civil war is beneficial to the govenrment.
If Russia were that altruistic, and Putin were that altruistic, we wouldn't have the current Russian infiltration. There were much better ways to accomplish such. Sorry, Shadow. Not buyin' it. Russia interfered because they were afraid Ukrainians would lose their pensions? Do you realize how silly that sounds?
As for not working together? Russia has interfered with every election since 1991 in Ukraine. It was only after their current intervention that many Ukrainians had their wake-up call. But when I lived in Mykolaiv last summer, I can tell you that already everyone there knew (and it is a Russian speaking town) that the government was corrupt and controlled by Moscow. How much time have you, personally, spent on the ground talking to Ukrainians in their cities?
I have spent much time in both Russia and Ukraine. My personal take is that Ukrainians had a much greater sense of belonging to a country than Russians did. To be Russian (outside of the two federal cities) meant heritage. To be Ukrainian meant country.
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Russia was, and probably given the chance still is, willing to have close tieswith the EU as well, it being a large market for their export as well as a large supplier.
Close ties? One important point I have learned over the past 12 years is that Russia is not the West. Russia may trade with the West, exchanging petrodollars for Western high quality goods, yet at its core the Russian economy is beset with corruption, favoritism, inadequate rule of law, etc. IMO these would never foster what I think of as "close ties."
Why Russia objected to the infamous trade agreement? Because it is linked to demands like scaling down pensions and other government provisions that will hurt those already in a bad situation.
There was more, much more such as removing subsidies for energy. These changes are necessary to make the transition to a Western economy. Paying the piper is painful, and I forsee that it will take a generation. And I question whether it can happen. Don't you think this will come to a head this winter when Russia curtails its gas shipments, demanding payment of the huge existing bill for past gas deliveries?
Also the current funds are demanding measures that will cause the normal people some hardship, without the civil war that would be already a lot clearer. Which is one more reason why one may think that this civil war is beneficial to the govenrment.
I don't see how this is beneficial to the government. Fighting a war is making the country become even deeper in debt.
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If Russia were that altruistic, and Putin were that altruistic, we wouldn't have the current Russian infiltration. There were much better ways to accomplish such. Sorry, Shadow. Not buyin' it. Russia interfered because they were afraid Ukrainians would lose their pensions? Do you realize how silly that sounds?
As for not working together? Russia has interfered with every election since 1991 in Ukraine. It was only after their current intervention that many Ukrainians had their wake-up call. But when I lived in Mykolaiv last summer, I can tell you that already everyone there knew (and it is a Russian speaking town) that the government was corrupt and controlled by Moscow. How much time have you, personally, spent on the ground talking to Ukrainians in their cities?
I have spent much time in both Russia and Ukraine. My personal take is that Ukrainians had a much greater sense of belonging to a country than Russians did. To be Russian (outside of the two federal cities) meant heritage. To be Ukrainian meant country.
I would agree to your sentiments, except that the people are already tired of their own shot for a long time, but refuse to blame it on themselves. After the Orange revolution there was no Russian control, but people are simply forgetting that.
The future will teach that the problem of Ukraine has very little to do with Russia, and a lot with Ukrianians.
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Close ties? One important point I have learned over the past 12 years is that Russia is not the West. Russia may trade with the West, exchanging petrodollars for Western high quality goods, yet at its core the Russian economy is beset with corruption, favoritism, inadequate rule of law, etc. IMO these would never foster what I think of as "close ties."
That makes it pretty close to Western economy, all they need is to shift it to a little higher level so the street level will seem clean.
There was more, much more such as removing subsidies for energy. These changes are necessary to make the transition to a Western economy. Paying the piper is painful, and I forsee that it will take a generation. And I question whether it can happen. Don't you think this will come to a head this winter when Russia curtails its gas shipments, demanding payment of the huge existing bill for past gas deliveries?
Lowering pensions is not a good method, nor is removing subsidies for energy.
When you wish to build a country, you need to give people a future. If you let the older generation work because they can not afford to retire, the younger generations will be without jobs. Removing subsidies means people will die. Guess that is ok to build the economy.
I don't see how this is beneficial to the government. Fighting a war is making the country become even deeper in debt.
Not really, as it is largely financed by other countries. And while the country is in state of war and blaming everything on Russia, they will be blind to what happens to their income and bills, it will be just another thing to blame on Russia.
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Why Russia objected to the infamous trade agreement? Because it is linked to demands like scaling down pensions and other government provisions that will hurt those already in a bad situation. Also the current funds are demanding measures that will cause the normal people some hardship, without the civil war that would be already a lot clearer. Which is one more reason why one may think that this civil war is beneficial to the govenrment.
Russia didn't care about the scaling down of pensions or any other provisions in Ukraine. If it had, it would not have fomented the civil war.
The union Russia proposed was in its state interests, not Ukraine's. I have no issue with that, states generally act in their own interests, but, notwithstanding the Russian narrative, it is false to suggest there was any altruism toward Ukraine on Russia's part.
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I would agree to your sentiments, except that the people are already tired of their own shot for a long time, but refuse to blame it on themselves. After the Orange revolution there was no Russian control, but people are simply forgetting that.
Absolutely false.
The future will teach that the problem of Ukraine has very little to do with Russia, and a lot with Ukrianians.
Other than the Russians annexing territory and funding a war on Ukrainian lands, I agree.
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The future will teach that the problem of Ukraine has very little to do with Russia, and a lot with Ukrianians.
I agree with you 100%.
The same responsibility holds for the past - the Ukrainians elected their leaders who over 20 years of independence did little. Crimea and some Eastern Ukrainians compared the success of Russia with the mistakes of Ukraine and said I want to be part of Russia, not Ukraine. I say do not give the territory to Russia, but instead allow these disgruntled citizens to emigrate to Russia where Putin will find them jobs, etc.
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That makes it pretty close to Western economy, all they need is to shift it to a little higher level so the street level will seem clean.
This suggests you are too cynical to allow a rigorous discussion.
Lowering pensions is not a good method, nor is removing subsidies for energy.
When you wish to build a country, you need to give people a future. If you let the older generation work because they can not afford to retire, the younger generations will be without jobs. Removing subsidies means people will die. Guess that is ok to build the economy.
Sheesh; there is also the option of growing the economy. Subsidies should not be removed 100% on Day One but over an extended period of time.
Not really, as it is largely financed by other countries. And while the country is in state of war and blaming everything on Russia, they will be blind to what happens to their income and bills, it will be just another thing to blame on Russia.
Are you certain Ukraine's war costs are paid by other countries?
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I hate to use the analogy, but I see the whole conflict between the two countries as a 'Messy Divorce'.
Ukraine, as the poorer of the two, demonstrates a desire to leave. While Russia, who is a controlling and somewhat jealous spouse, refuses to let Ukraine go. To further the analogy, Russia has most of the resources and, as in a messy divorce, is trying to control Ukraine by withholding natural gas, will no longer buy dairy products (they are defective now, for Russians!) and, further, will take any territory that Russian can get its hands on.
Who was it? Tom Clancy? Who wrote: "The definition of foreign relations is two countries F**ing each other!"
As an aside, Ukrainian ATO troops are now inside the city limits of both Donetsk and Lugansk. While I believe that they will proceed into Donetsk, I don't think that their foothold is half as secure in Lugansk. We simply await to see what the Bear next door does.
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I hate to use the analogy, but I see the whole conflict between the two countries as a 'Messy Divorce'.
Ukraine, as the poorer of the two, demonstrates a desire to leave. While Russia, who is a controlling and somewhat jealous spouse, refuses to let Ukraine go. To further the analogy, Russia has most of the resources and, as in a messy divorce, is trying to control Ukraine by withholding natural gas, will no longer buy dairy products (they are defective now, for Russians!) and, further, will take any territory that Russian can get its hands on.
Who was it? Tom Clancy? Who wrote: "The definition of foreign relations is two countries F**ing each other!"
As an aside, Ukrainian ATO troops are now inside the city limits of both Donetsk and Lugansk. While I believe that they will proceed into Donetsk, I don't think that their foothold is half as secure in Lugansk. We simply await to see what the Bear next door does.
There amount of dead people on both sides makes this statement somewhat incongruent.
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I agree with you 100%.
The same responsibility holds for the past - the Ukrainians elected their leaders who over 20 years of independence did little. Crimea and some Eastern Ukrainians compared the success of Russia with the mistakes of Ukraine and said I want to be part of Russia, not Ukraine. I say do not give the territory to Russia, but instead allow these disgruntled citizens to emigrate to Russia where Putin will find them jobs, etc.
Except that, the majority of Eastern Ukrainians did not support the separatists who initially demonstrated, nor the terrorists who eventually came from Russia to occupy and fight on their lands.
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Except that, the majority of Eastern Ukrainians did not support the separatists who initially demonstrated, nor the terrorists who eventually came from Russia to occupy and fight on their lands.
True enough Bo, however I really like idea of the disgruntled going to their motherland and leaving the rest of Ukrainian in peace.
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Many of them emigrated from Russia, but many are also native. However, the core of the terrorists are not locals. That is the major issue in this conflict.
HRW report today on the war crimes of the terrorists -
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/08/04/ukraine-insurgents-disrupt-medical-services
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Except that, the majority of Eastern Ukrainians did not support the separatists who initially demonstrated, nor the terrorists who eventually came from Russia to occupy and fight on their lands.
Keep drinking the kool aid.
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I agree with you 100%.
The same responsibility holds for the past - the Ukrainians elected their leaders who over 20 years of independence did little. Crimea and some Eastern Ukrainians compared the success of Russia with the mistakes of Ukraine and said I want to be part of Russia, not Ukraine. I say do not give the territory to Russia, but instead allow these disgruntled citizens to emigrate to Russia where Putin will find them jobs, etc.
The ideas of Stalin are sill alive.
Lets remove people from their birth ground because of their opinions.
Well ok... lets agree on this on the condition that every person who likes the US is given a green card and job, no questions asked.
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This suggests you are too cynical to allow a rigorous discussion.
Not cynical but realistic.
Sheesh; there is also the option of growing the economy. Subsidies should not be removed 100% on Day One but over an extended period of time.
That is not what the terms of the trade agreement or financing the debts say.
Besides, the recent years have shown that growth is not something you should see as a given.
Are you certain Ukraine's war costs are paid by other countries?
I would hope so. If not the billions given have already landed in the pockets of the current government.
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Keep drinking the kool aid.
My "kool aid" includes the most recent poll, taken after the terrorists seized power. In the regions occupied, no more than 35% support for separation. Ever. I linked it here somewhere.
What have you got?
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http://www.trust.org/item/20140805123419-16biw
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My "kool aid" includes the most recent poll, taken after the terrorists seized power. In the regions occupied, no more than 35% support for separation. Ever. I linked it here somewhere.
What have you got?
Reality.
The poll you linked to was made in March. Apart from that the questioning of the poll influences the outcome, I doubt there is anyone in Ukraine who has the same opinion as they had in March.
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No, I linked one after the invasion as well, which found approximately 35% support, and noted support has never been higher than that. I also linked an online poll, which had an even lower outcome.
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The ideas of Stalin are sill alive.
Lets remove people from their birth ground because of their opinions.
Well ok... lets agree on this on the condition that every person who likes the US is given a green card and job, no questions asked.
Is having a foreign power fund a false "revolution" very far from Stalinism? At least Stalin used local leaders as the faces of his "nascent" communist movements.
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No, I linked one after the invasion as well, which found approximately 35% support, and noted support has never been higher than that. I also linked an online poll, which had an even lower outcome.
After which invasion?
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Is having a foreign power fund a false "revolution" very far from Stalinism? At least Stalin used local leaders as the faces of his "nascent" communist movements.
I guess that you wish people to move from where they were born in order to get more space for those who hail war criminals. So be it.
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After which invasion?
The invasion by Russian separatists. The last poll I linked (can't recall where) was done in June, and it stated that support has remained steady at 35%.
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I guess that you wish people to move from where they were born in order to get more space for those who hail war criminals. So be it.
No, I didn't state I wanted people to move anywhere. I just commented on the note about Stalinist tactics.
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The ideas of Stalin are sill alive.
Lets remove people from their birth ground because of their opinions.
Who said they would be removed involuntarily? Russia wants to protect Russian speaking people in foreign lands. If Russian speakers do not like Ukraine and prefer Russia, allow them to emigrate voluntarily to Russia.
BTW, it is already happening. From CNN today:
"The U.N. refugee agency, the UNHCR, said Tuesday that the Russian authorities estimate that around 730,000 Ukrainians have sought sanctuary in Russia this year under a visa-free travel program. This includes more than 168,000 who have reported to Russia's Federal Migration Service.
Russia's state-run news agency Itar-Tass reported Tuesday that Russia has set up 585 temporary camps to house the fleeing Ukrainians. More than 42,400 people are staying there, including about 15,000 children, it said."
Well ok... lets agree on this on the condition that every person who likes the US is given a green card and job, no questions asked.
Your analogy has a huge mistake. There is no country on earth where the USA is supporting a rebellion by an English-speaking minority against that country's government, intending to separate part of that country's sovereign territory and annex it to the USA
OTOH, this is exactly what Russia and Russian speakers and descendants are doing in Ukraine. And Ukraine is fighting this heavily armed rebellion.
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Are you certain Ukraine's war costs are paid by other countries?
I would hope so. If not the billions given have already landed in the pockets of the current government.
Everything I have read says the Ukrainian coffers were empty well before the war started. Add a war, and the country is flat broke, flatter than a mule's fanny. In fact, citizens are being asked to contribute money directly to the war effort. Some wounded soldiers can not get the surgery they need to recover.
So what exactly is your source saying countries are giving billions for the war effort?
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So what exactly is your source saying countries are giving billions for the war effort?
It took months after the fighting started for the United States to donate night vision goggles and better bullet proof vests. That amounted to a pittance in terms of American military spending and far from billions of dollars of support. If the United States planned this all along, you would think that somebody would have thought of providing some basic military supplies at least a few weeks in advance...
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Gator is pro-Putin?
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Gator is pro-Putin?
No.
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I would hope so. If not the billions given have already landed in the pockets of the current government.
Everything I have read says the Ukrainian coffers were empty well before the war started. Add a war, and the country is flat broke, flatter than a mule's fanny. In fact, citizens are being asked to contribute money directly to the war effort. Some wounded soldiers can not get the surgery they need to recover.
So what exactly is your source saying countries are giving billions for the war effort?
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2014/03/why-is-the-u-s-sending-1-billion-to-ukraine/ (http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2014/03/why-is-the-u-s-sending-1-billion-to-ukraine/)
Where do you think money will go too if not the war effort?
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After which invasion?
If you didn't like the little one that happened, maybe you'll like the one coming up. Putin wants east Ukraine if not all of it. Always had, always will.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/08/05/us-officials-warn-russian-troops-could-move-quickly-against-ukraine-report-says/?intcmp=latestnews (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/08/05/us-officials-warn-russian-troops-could-move-quickly-against-ukraine-report-says/?intcmp=latestnews)
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Russia says there is an urgent humanitarian situation in Ukraine and they are ready to help. Tanks will solve the problems there and ease everyone's pain.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/russia-calls-emergency-un-security-182320732.html (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/russia-calls-emergency-un-security-182320732.html)
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Who knows? Putin may just be wasting taxpayers money by sending all those troops to the border.
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He is invincible!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XllsoiyS7gw
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Where do you think money will go too if not the war effort?
Lets hope it goes to the military......not just pocketed by the corrupt politicians.
MREs that were given for the soldiers were sold and given away to others. My wife was very upset when she saw ordinary citizens in her small city eating them.That is just one of the small ways the corrupt are profiting.
There is talk once the army has cleared out the separatists.....they will then turn their attention to Kiev.
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It's not our fault your stupid plane ran into our rocket!
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Buk-M1-2_9A310M1-2.jpg)
duh!
(http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/5610126-3x2-700x467.jpg)
(http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2014/07/18/395584_actual_custom-ab67373f38fee5821ca5d88ac86575974557d963-s6-c30.jpg)
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Churkin said Russia wants to send a humanitarian convoy to Luhansk and Donetsk under the auspices of the International Committee of the Red Cross.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/UN_UNITED_NATIONS_UKRAINE_RUSSIA?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
here may lie putins next move
question is what will ukraines response be ?
SX
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It appears Ukraine has stated there is no humanitarian crisis.
I don't think sending the Red Cross in is a bad idea, provided Russian troops and the Russian government are not involved.
Perhaps the US ambassador should counter with an international UN peacekeeping force. That would stop the humanitarian crisis immediately, if accepted by both sides.
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an international UN peacekeeping force.
Agreed.
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Lets hope it goes to the military......not just pocketed by the corrupt politicians.
MREs that were given for the soldiers were sold and given away to others. My wife was very upset when she saw ordinary citizens in her small city eating them.That is just one of the small ways the corrupt are profiting.
There is talk once the army has cleared out the separatists.....they will then turn their attention to Kiev.
That's old news. That's been happening since April....
http://time.com/45253/ukraine-corruption-tymoshenko-kiev/
The U.S. Congress needs to seriously re-evaluate appropriations for all aid — humanitarian, lethal, and non-lethal — if not end the foolish program altogether. There needs to be more investigations and reporting over the government agencies that provide foreign assistance. It’s not the job of the federal government to provide welfare for the world.
LOL!
http://www.conservativeactionalerts.com/2014/04/foreign-aid-at-work-us-mre-meals-given-to-ukraine-being-sold-illegaly-online/
It's OK. It's Kiev, you can't expect this old habit to die any time soon.
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I'm looking at it more from the point of view of a proper UN peacekeeping force, rather than troops being sent under their national flags, which I agree would almost certainly inflame the situation in both countries. Whatever their feelings towards "the West," combatants on all sides in recent conflicts seem to have more respect for the UN's objectives than they do towards (for example) American troops operating under the US flag.
It appears Ukraine has stated there is no humanitarian crisis.
I don't think sending the Red Cross in is a bad idea, provided Russian troops and the Russian government are not involved.
Perhaps the US ambassador should counter with an international UN peacekeeping force. That would stop the humanitarian crisis immediately, if accepted by both sides.
Agreed.
I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one pushing this particular barrow - just a shame that the rest of the world hasn't followed suit.
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I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one pushing this particular barrow - just a shame that the rest of the world hasn't followed suit.
IMHO, the UN peace keepers would accomplish exactly dick.
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A possible scenario, if UN peacekeepers were sent to patrol the border-
This would shine a light on the influx of weapons from Russia and stop or expose the influx of missiles from Russia that are exploding in Ukraine near the border. Ukraine's biggest problem is the separatists' supply line from Russia.
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Very few times have I ever wanted to quote a whole article. But with Timothy Ash, I think that it is worthwhile reading for anyone with relatives and/or ongoing romances in Ukraine. I have met this guy and he is one bright SOB. If you read his different scenarios, he gives a clear vision as to what possible scenarios are likely in the next two to three weeks:
SUMMARY:
· Analysts have been behind the curve on the Ukraine/Russia crisis, typically neglecting to consider worse case scenarios, which have tended to result. Now might be the time to think through the consequences of less market-friendly outcomes.
· The military status quo on the ground appears unsustainable. The Ukrainian military is making significant gains, and is eager to secure victory by the time of parliamentary elections in October.
· Russia has to make some difficult choices, whether to accept ‘‘defeat’’ in Ukraine, and back off, taking a less confrontational approach, or double up and move to a more formalised intervention to stem the advance of the Ukrainian military.
· We attach a relatively high probability to an attempt by Russia to muster support for intervention by a Russian-led peacekeeping force. We think the West will block such attempts at the United Nations Security Council but, depending on developments on the ground, Russia might still intervene more directly, using regular troops ‘‘branded’’ as peacekeepers. We think that such a strategy would risk a direct conflict between Russian and Ukrainian troops, which would represent a further and significant escalation of the current conflict. We think any such conflict would though be of a relatively short duration, albeit intensive and damaging, but with the risk that Donbas, alongside Crimea, becomes a ‘‘frozen conflict’’ and a source of long term friction between the West/Ukraine and Russia.
· We see almost no chance of NATO becoming involved in a direct military conflict with Russia, but the West could move to arm Ukraine, in response to Russia’s direct intervention in Ukraine, and NATO is also likely to boost military assets available to the Baltics and Poland.
· The West is likely to implement a further sanctions iteration on Russia, in response to further and more formalized Russian intervention in Ukraine. These sanctions will be slow to roll off, without agreement on a longer-term solution over the issues of the future of Crimea, the Donbas and also Ukraine. Sanctions will have a lasting and negative impact on relations between the West and Russia, and more directly on investment in/out of Russia and more broadly on Russia’s outlook for growth, development and also market perceptions.
Introduction
The crisis in Ukraine has been nothing if not unpredictable throughout. Indeed, time and time again the crisis has lurched to yet another worst case, or ‘‘Black Swan,” scenario. To recap, no one expected the Maydan protests, few predicted the ousting of former President Viktor Yanukovych, and similarly there seemed total incomprehension beforehand that Russia would annex Crimea as it did in April, questioning Ukraine’s territorial integrity and driving through the Budapest Memorandum of 1994 (a lynchpin of regional security and global nuclear non-proliferation) nor that Ukrainr could see a major conflict on its territory --- Ukrainians as recently as April were indignant to me at least at the prospect of Ukrainians fighting Ukrainians, or even Russians; I should add herein that most Ukrainians still do not see the current conflict as a civil war, but rather a war of liberation against foreign intervention and aggression by Russia. And again, few people predicted Western sanctions on Russia, or that Russia would not back down, but would remain on a course heading towards conflict and confrontation with Ukraine and the West.
..... Here is the hotlink for the rest of the story.......
http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/timothy-ash-time-to-think-about-worst-case-scenarios-in-ukraine-russia-crisis-359573.html
Timothy Ash is an analyst of emerging markets for Standard Bank in London.
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JONE i also agree with timothy ash , good article , one many should read imho
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17402.msg368222#msg368222
on: May 28, 2014, 06:18:50 PM »
FT
given the commitments america &others made to ukraine with the budapest memorandum, the very wise and direct prudent action would have been for the UN to offer /place peacekeeprs into ukraine directly after the events on maidan 19-22nd of feb ,
this single action would have probably stopped putins action in crimea & s/east ukraien in its tracks
with the very high resulting probability of no major conflicts or deaths like we have seen to date
putin would not have taken on the UN , & with the UN involvement it would be hard to make use of his propoganda arguments he has used about ukraine to justify his actions
the above is not war mongering imho , it is a simple direct action designed to confront all partys and stop the escalation of events until ukraine could hold an election
pity the UN didnt act sooner in this regard, it may have staved off much off the recent crisis
SX
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pity the UN didnt act sooner
The UN has never (at least so far as I can recall) acted pre-emptively and wouldn't have in UA. Much as I'd like UN peacekeepers to be an outcome, it won't be - the die is now clearly cast.
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The UN has never (at least so far as I can recall) acted pre-emptively and wouldn't have in UA. Much as I'd like UN peacekeepers to be an outcome, it won't be - the die is now clearly cast.
yes , this is true , they are always behind the play , and only get involved when lots of blood has been spilled
pity it is that way when it should be the opposite imo
SX
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yes , this is true , they are always behind the play , and only get involved when lots of blood has been spilled
pity it is that way when it should be the opposite imo
SX
They don't get involved even then. Typically, they just observe. If the UN sends in Russia as peace keepers, it will get ugly. Putin's free gratis to Ukraine.
Personally I fear the UN more than I do Russia. The UN has an army and apparently itching to mobilize it. Russia is an integral part of that force. That result is not going to have a good ending for anyone.
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FP
IF ;) & thats a big IF , the UN was to send in peacekeepers, it should not consist of any russians given the perceived conflict of interest they have ,
the general idea would be to have a UN lead FORCE that has no bias in keeping donetsk/luhansk as a frozen conflict and could support along with the OSCE any ideas of referendums/elections /annexations etc as independent peackeepers , while orderly negotiations took place without /min loss of life
this would be much less so if russia was involved imho
however i doubt it will happen anytime soon
SX
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Perhaps the US ambassador should counter with an international UN peacekeeping force. That would stop the humanitarian crisis immediately, if accepted by both sides.
Russia didn't ask for help when they went into Crimea to stop the fascists from terrorizing the Crimeans. UN peacekeepers are not very efficient. They are usually soldiers without ammo for their weapons. They are called "peacekeepers" but make no mistake, they aren't "peace makers".
The only way Putin is going to stop is if somebody stronger gets in his way. UN peacekeepers and sanctions are not stronger than Russia.
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Donbass pro-Ukraine fighter reports Corruption & incompetence inside the Ukrainian political & military leadership
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4DpPr9xy5U
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Donbass pro-Ukraine fighter reports Corruption & incompetence inside the Ukrainian political & military leadership
Real old news. The citizens should have rid of all the politicians and other high level officials when they got rid of Yanukovych.
Ukraine's military is still beating the rebels. Putin will allow that to continue since he won't have to pay those rebels. It's hard to collect a paycheck when you're dead. When the Ukrainian army finish cleaning up the rebels and are battle fatigued, the Russian army will clean them up.
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I know that materialism is en vogue on this board but why adopt a philosophy when the facts prove it over and over again to be bogus?
If wars were won on superior strength and material, we would be vacationing in South Vietnam (and some would be trolling North Vietnamese villages.) Wars may be an extension of politics but they are spiritual struggles. He who has the political will to win will prevail ultimately in the war. We do not know if this is the end, the beginning of the end or the end of the beginning. But every body, even the Putin suckers knows he is losing and that Russia has imploded before and that Russia/Soviet Union has lost wars before. Ask the Chechens, Japanese, Finns and Afghans. Even the Poles, Mongols and Turks have routed the Russians.
There is so much wrong with Russia for reasons outlined all over this thread, I just don't even see it being a viable country much less stand up to Ukrainian military which continues to get stronger and more experienced every day. The invasion ship has sailed and probably a leaky dingy with a Cunard facade but if you and others what buy that botox filled elevator high heeled shoes PR, you have plenty of company.
He is like a more manly version of Obama, every thing he touches turns to sh!t.
No. I see Russia's collapse soon.
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I see Russia's collapse soon.
How so?
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The sanctions thus far have been pinprick. The aid to Ukraine nominal and symbolic. And yet who is winning? Dictators cannot long survive military defeats. It is a permanent stain on their prestige. Ask Slobodan and Kubili Kahn. Too many Russians don't like Putin. So much that Strelkov would defeat Vova in future "elections." He has too many enemies and unlike Hitler or even his idol Stalin, he doesn't have a lock on his people.
When a society destroys people like Koleznikov and Politskaya but enriches Putin, Kiselov and Medvedyev, its collapse is imminent.
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FP
IF ;) & thats a big IF , the UN was to send in peacekeepers, it should not consist of any russians given the perceived conflict of interest they have ,
the general idea would be to have a UN lead FORCE that has no bias in keeping donetsk/luhansk as a frozen conflict and could support along with the OSCE any ideas of referendums/elections /annexations etc as independent peackeepers , while orderly negotiations took place without /min loss of life
this would be much less so if russia was involved imho
however i doubt it will happen anytime soon
SX
In a perfect world sure but, the world we now live in is bizzaro. Down is up, in is out and black is white. The caveat with that is, Russia has a permanent seat on the UN Security Council. Russian soldiers very likely will show up in Ukraine under the auspice of the UN.
The UN has a tendency to do what the UN wants to do without much if any regard to what the member nations supposedly vote for. It itself has become a beast and self perpetuating entity. It has it's own interest as a priority and Ukraine's priority isn't going to get much consideration. The day we have to rely on the UN to do the policing is going to be a very sad day IMHO
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No way is the UN getting involved. UN action requires concensus. Russia is a 2T economy and shrinking. They didn't have the street credit after Syria to pull this off. Now that they are isolated . . .like the Duke said, life is much much harder when you are stupid.
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A few by David Marples, an academic who has written extensively on Ukraine
http://ukraineanalysis.wordpress.com/2014/08/29/assessing-ukraines-options/
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Interesting article in The National Review -
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/377818/did-putin-plan-odessa-massacre-robert-zubrin/page/0/1?splash=
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Interesting article in The National Review -
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/377818/did-putin-plan-odessa-massacre-robert-zubrin/page/0/1?splash= (http://www.nationalreview.com/article/377818/did-putin-plan-odessa-massacre-robert-zubrin/page/0/1?splash=)
From the videos I saw, it looked like the bombs were thrown at the building. I thought it was pretty clear to be honest. It did look like the Pro-Russians started the nonsense, though, that led to what unfortunately happened.
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Yes, the article speculates from both perspectives on that.
If the speculation in the article were proven true, it would not surprise me.
Meanwhile, in Crimea -
. . . officers of the Federal Security Service of Russia exert psychological pressure on the priests of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Kyiv Patriarchate, stated Archbishop Klyment of Simferopol and Crimea (Pavlo Kusch).
“Some priests were forced to sign papers on cooperation with the FSB. We are going back to the distant communist times, when the KGB exerted influence on clergymen,” he said, adding that the main issues the FSB representatives are interested in relate to the activities of archbishop Klyment, his circle of contacts, his plans, and travel routes. However, despite the current situation, Archbishop of Simferopol and Crimea doe not plans to leave the peninsula. “I come from Crimea and will not leave on my own will. First, my flock is here, and second, I am an indigenous Crimean resident. Third, I do not have the blessing to do so. All that was done over the past years was made with my hands and the hands of my parishioners, and it would be a spiritual crime to cast it adrift,” said Archbishop Klyment.
As previously reported, only 9 priests out of 15 priests of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church – Kyiv Patriarchate remained in Crimea, according to Krym.
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/community/scandals/57577/ (http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/community/scandals/57577/)
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Interesting article in The National Review -
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/377818/did-putin-plan-odessa-massacre-robert-zubrin/page/0/1?splash=
Yes I do. He may not have done this personally but it was clearly an FSB job. It was an obvious set-up. First pro-Russian thugs unexpectedly and unprovokedly attack a peaceful demonstration in the city center killing a few people with Kalashnikov rifles and injuring many others with clubs and missiles. All of Odessa is outraged and raises to crush them. The police is not doing anything. But the Odessites manage to defeat the Russians in the city center. Then people head for the separatist camp in a big square next to the train station (this place had been a problem for Odessa for two months, its inhabitants were notorious for being drunk and aggressive), but instead of dispersing and fleeing, the separatists entrench in the building in the center of the square and continue shooting at the advancing infuriated Ukrainians adding to their fury. Originally people just wanted to remove the camp from the square but they had to storm the building. It is a fact that the Russian leaders persuaded ordinary separatists to lock in the building and then went to the roof where they were safe. I guess if they had just told everybody to flee, there would have been much fewer casualties. But they did not only shoot from the roof but also threw Molotov coctails. It is hard to say whose coctail started the fire but playing with the fire is dangerous and those who live in a glass home should not throw stones, eh? It is also a mystery why so many people died in the building which did not burn to ashes, had long and wide corridors and stairs. There are theories that there were FSB officers inside who put some people to sleep using chloroform or something else, and the people simply died of carbon dioxide. The Nord-Ost tradegy comes to mind where many people also died of some gas. But it is just a theory. I personally saw a lot of gas mask filters in the destroyed camp in the square. Something is just wrong there, and an old saying suggests to see who profits. Putin had long claimed that Russians were oppressed in Ukraine, so this story fits him perfectly.
So it is absolutely clear to me that it was a set-up to frame pro-Ukrainian activists and the Kiev government. By whom — by the FSB of course that is Putin. I have been there so I saw it with my own eyes. What’s more, I had been to the separatists camp before, in March, when I tried to have a discussion with the opponents and find a common ground. I found out though that there was no one to talk to there both literally and figuratively. They did not want to talk, and I got an impression there were only idiots there at least in the ranks. So no wonder they were easy to be driven into the building like sheep even though it was obvious it was a trap. But those who drove them inside must have had a goal, and this goal seems to have been a success. Basically, what happened in Odessa is not different in essence from what is going on in the east when the terrorists kill people and there are Russian journalists there in a jiffy reporting of "Ukrainian army shelling civilians". Sometimes the terrorist simply fire at the Ukrainian troops from living quarters to provoke reprisal fire, but it is safer for them to just shell living quarters themselves and blame the military. It is just an order from the FSB to create a certain image that "Ukrainians are kiiling Russians".
This is a common practice against Ukraine actually. I met a girl here in Odessa who had fled from Lugansk and she told me that when they saw a Russian journalist close to a neighborhood it was a sign that this neighborhood would be very soon shelled by the separatists. You may find it difficult to believe that the separatists shell their own city and perhaps their own homes but even when there was peace, those drunkards and drug-addicts did not care, and why would they care if they are paid? However, the commanders were Russian, so they cared even less.
The Russians shot down Boing 777 with the same purpose. It was not a mistake. They did it on purpose.
Putin has many goals:
1. Destruction of Ukraine.
2. Showing Russians that it is bad to topple your government however corrupted it is.
3. Getting rid of potential domestic revolutionaries who go to fight in Ukraine thinking that they are fighting against Nazism (most of them are brainwashed).
4. Preventing Ukraine from fracking in the Donbass region and thus eliminating the need to import gas from Russia.
5. etc.So, everything is good to achieve his goals. Even purposeful killing of his Ukrainian admirers just to say the Ukrainian government did that and justify his actions against Ukraine in the eyes of his people. In 1999 he ordered to blow residential buildings in Russia when he needed a reason for another Chechen war killing innocent Russians, so why would he have pity for Ukrainains?I have also come to this conclusion. The more I hear what ordinary Russians say about it, the more I am persuaded that idiocy is a wide-spread disease among them. It could have been games before the end of August but now it is clear that Russia is waging a war against Ukraine. It does not matter if the war was not proclaimed. Hitler did not declare a war on the USSR in 1941 either. It is absolutely astonishing to see people who refuse to acknowledge the obvious but gladly believe any idiotic statement providing they hear it from Russian television.
1) No.
2) Yes.
3) Not sure but I feel that once regular Russian troops took over, we need a respite to regroup. Before it was Russian mercenaries and criminals with some local drunkards, now it is complete Russian regiments. Also, Poroshenko needs to look decent for the West and show that he is not a bloody-thirsty animal like Putin and does something for peace. Finally, we need to exchange prisoners and this is difficult during hostilities. However, after the previous cease-fire we made great progress.
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A possible scenario, if UN peacekeepers were sent to patrol the border-
This would shine a light on the influx of weapons from Russia and stop or expose the influx of missiles from Russia that are exploding in Ukraine near the border. Ukraine's biggest problem is the separatists' supply line from Russia.
PhotoGuy:
I see your message finally got through to Leonid. But he could use a few more tips.
http://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2014/09/12/7037623/
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This site has various opinions on the current situation in Ukraine. I am linking to one, and others can be navigated easily -
http://www.ssrresourcecentre.org/2014/08/29/re-assessing-post-cold-war-assumptions-after-russias-gambit-in-ukraine/
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This site has various opinions on the current situation in Ukraine. I am linking to one, and others can be navigated easily -
http://www.ssrresourcecentre.org/2014/08/29/re-assessing-post-cold-war-assumptions-after-russias-gambit-in-ukraine/
Very well written article.
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The view of a former Russian foreign minister -
http://windowoneurasia2.blogspot.cz/2014/09/window-on-eurasia-kremlin-demand-for.html
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Ongoing attack--despite ceasefire.The pro-Rus apologists can rationalise the situation further north in the Donbas but the attack on Mauripol is very clearly an overt act of war by Russian forces against Ukraine. There has been ongoing breach of ceasefire by Russian troops.
Quoting-
The bombardment of villages and Sartana # Talakovka under Mariupol killed seven civilians, even sixteen people were injured. Such data are specified in the City Council of Mariupol. Currently working at the scene of the mission representatives # OSCE , and all hospitalized medical assistance in full. Just today was subjected to bombardment checkpoint in the village Talakovka. Victims, the injured and the destruction of infrastructure is not. "Eastern suburbs of Mariupol, including checkpoint in East LMR, not subjected to shelling. According to Staff # ATO , in today's shelling of the victims and the wounded among the troops was not ", - the report of the City Council. Mariupol authorities claim that the current threat of attack on the city is not, the setting on the outskirts of Mariupol controlled. Earlier, it was reported that as a result of fire fighters killed 5 civilians.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdYhuRZLJmI
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The view of a former Russian foreign minister -
http://windowoneurasia2.blogspot.cz/2014/09/window-on-eurasia-kremlin-demand-for.html
Boe, is this guy for real? I don't recall every hearing his name.
I havn't heard anything this logical and reasonable coming out of the Kremlin in a long time.
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Boe, is this guy for real? I don't recall every hearing his name.
I havn't heard anything this logical and reasonable coming out of the Kremlin in a long time.
Staunton, September 16 – Moscow’s demands for a voice in the definition of the policies of the Ukrainian state are “something unheard of in the contemporary world," Georgy Kunadze, who served as deputy foreign minister of the Russian Federation at the beginning of the Yeltsin period, says.
You are right Doug--about 20 years in fact!!
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Ex-adviser to Putin: the war with Ukraine is ready for a long time, and it will be a long-term
Подробности читайте на УНИАН: http://www.unian.net/politics/1011969-eks-sovetnik-putina-voynu-s-ukrainoy-gotovili-dolgo-i-ona-budet-dolgovremennoy.html
20.11.2014 | 19:32
Ex-adviser to the president of Russia, Vladimir Putin, Andrei Illarionov said that Ukraine is ready to war with a minimum of 11 years, it will be durable and is part of the "fourth world" in order to change the world order.
Подробности читайте на УНИАН: http://www.unian.net/politics/1011969-eks-sovetnik-putina-voynu-s-ukrainoy-gotovili-dolgo-i-ona-budet-dolgovremennoy.html
As UNIAN correspondent, this Illarionov, who is now a senior research fellow at the Cato Institute Center for Global Liberty and Prosperity (Washington), said in a speech at a conference held in Brussels.
READ ALSO Nemtsov: Putin intends to rule Russia until 2024
The expert believes that the events in Ukraine can not be called "no crisis in Ukraine, nor the Ukrainian crisis." "This is not a crisis, and war. It is a war in a very simple sense of the word, "- he said.
Raised the question of what kind this war, Illarionov himself on him said: "This - the Russian-Ukrainian war. To be more precise, it is a war against Putin's Ukraine. " "Most Russians do not support this war. The war Putin against Ukraine is already a long-term, "- says the expert.
Their opinion as to why this war is lasting, Illarionov began to explain that, in his opinion, it is ready, at least 11 years. " "Since 2003. I can say that in my presence, discussed some of the issues of the future war against Ukraine. At the time I did not think this discussion really lead to a real war, "- he said.
Further expert recalled 2004, when during the Orange Revolution was tested further training occupation and annexation of the Crimea in 2008, was published in "Russian Journal" leaked plan military command, "where you will see the project of war against Ukraine, described in detail" with 2009 - The message of the action in support of separatists in Ukraine.
"That's why this war was prepared for very long. Another thing is that this is - a long war that has lasted for more than 16 months, and was officially launched July 27, 2013 in a speech in Kiev Putin about the Baptism of Kievan Rus. There you will find a clear statement about the beginning of the hybrid campaign intervention - not war ", - he said.
Illarionov also believes that "unfortunately, this war will not end soon." "We see that Putin says what he does. We are dealing with a long-term war. But it is not only a war against Putin Ukraine ", - says the expert.
In this aspect, he remembered the problems with Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Transnistria, Kazakhstan. "Putin said that Kazakhstan has no history of statehood. This clearly means that the state, which has no historical statehood might lose her when Nazarbayev will not be around, "- said the expert, and pointing to events that in the past few weeks have occurred in Latgale - eastern Latvia, where Russian-speaking population.
"The intention (Putin) is the same as in the Crimea and eastern Ukraine - the same approach. This is - a challenge not only post-Soviet countries and the Republic, it is a challenge to the EU and NATO. And this challenge is no answer, "- said Illarionov.
Experts say that the purpose of such action is to "destroy the order that exists in Europe the last few decades."
Illarionov also pointed to two recent performances at Valdai and Putin in Sochi, "which are of great importance for any European policy." In this regard, he made a comparison of these statements with the letters of Adolf Hitler, who had been sent to British Prime Minister Chamberlain on 23 and 25 August 1939, in which Hitler had proposed to change the world order.
Experts argue that there are 25 common points between the letters and speeches of Putin, "written almost a carbon copy." "Almost word for word, sentence to sentence, idea to idea. Only a few months ago we talked about the idea of Putin to restore the so-called "Russian world". It's already out of date. Who's ambitions are much higher. This proposal to change the world order of the international system, which has existed since the end of World War II. So now we are not dealing with regional issues such as the war against Putin, Ukraine or the war against its neighbors in the post-war or against the EU and NATO. This change just world order, "- said Illarionov.
According to him, Putin and the "propaganda machine it clearly said that it is the fourth world war." "If you listen to them, then it is understandable. They regard the Cold War as the third, and now say they are in the fourth world war to change the rules of the game, "- said the expert.
Illarionov remembered and two elements of such a confrontation. "This - the information war, or more correctly say, misinformation war in all languages, which creates a new vision of the world order. Unfortunately, we have to recognize that they have achieved some success, not only in Russia but also in other places, "- he said.
Another element of the ex-adviser called "nuclear blackmail." "This is the most dangerous. Any responsible politician in Europe or America will do everything possible to prevent a nuclear war happen. That is why the proposal contained in the speech of the Valdai-Sochi is very clear - you have to accept the new conditions of the world order, otherwise I'll be in danger of nuclear weapons. This challenge that the world still has no answer "- treats Putin's speech expert.
In this regard, Illarionov expressed the belief that the end of the war "will come when Russia will be free and democratic state." "While Russia will be under the dictatorship, risks and threats to peace will exist" - said Illarionov.
Read more on УНИАН: http://www.unian.net/politics/1011969-eks-sovetnik-putina-voynu-s-ukrainoy-gotovili-dolgo-i-ona-budet-dolgovremennoy.html
Once again this writer has a very interesting perspective and insight.
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The Russians are learning that the lure of celebrity trumps secrecy in the modern world.
Strelkov tearing down Putin's big lie...
Russia's Igor Strelkov: I Am Responsible for War in Eastern Ukraine
..."Russian national Igor Strelkov, a former commander of pro-Moscow separatists in eastern Ukraine, has claimed "personal responsibility" for unleashing the conflict across the border, in which 4,300 people have been killed since April.
"I was the one who pulled the firing trigger of this war," Strelkov said in an interview published Thursday with Russia's Zavtra newspaper, which espouses imperialist views.
"If our unit hadn't crossed the border, in the end everything would have fizzled out, like in [the Ukrainian city of] Kharkiv, like in Odessa," Strelkov, also known as Girkin, was quoted as saying."...
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russia-s-igor-strelkov-claims-responsibility-for-unleashing-war-in-ukraine/511584.html
Brass
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The Russians are learning that the lure of celebrity trumps secrecy in the modern world.
Sort of. Next you know he dies in a car accident and Putin simply claims that the guy did it all on his own -- "I know nothing" (Schultz from Hogan's Hero's).
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The Russians are learning that the lure of celebrity trumps secrecy in the modern world.
Strelkov tearing down Putin's big lie...
Russia's Igor Strelkov: I Am Responsible for War in Eastern Ukraine
..."Russian national Igor Strelkov, a former commander of pro-Moscow separatists in eastern Ukraine, has claimed "personal responsibility" for unleashing the conflict across the border, in which 4,300 people have been killed since April.
"I was the one who pulled the firing trigger of this war," Strelkov said in an interview published Thursday with Russia's Zavtra newspaper, which espouses imperialist views.
"If our unit hadn't crossed the border, in the end everything would have fizzled out, like in [the Ukrainian city of] Kharkiv, like in Odessa," Strelkov, also known as Girkin, was quoted as saying."...
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russia-s-igor-strelkov-claims-responsibility-for-unleashing-war-in-ukraine/511584.html
Brass
Similar records on the Internet - a lot. Direct and indirect evidence have identified Russian and units, the soldiers of which are fighting in Ukraine: 17th motorized infantry brigade (Chechnya); The 18th Motorized Rifle Brigade (Chechnya); 22th brigade of special purpose (GRU Aksai); 137th and 51th Parachute Regiment (106th Airborne Division); 331st Airborne Regiment (98th Airborne Division); 76th Airborne Division (Pskov); I / 35690 (FSB Special Operations Center Russian "Sputnik"); units of the 106th Airborne Division (Ryazan); 9th Motorised Brigade (Nizhny Novgorod); 31th Airborne Assault Brigade (Ulyanovsk).
Facts and estimates of the number of victims of mercenaries, volunteers and soldiers of the regular army of the Russian Federation
On trucks with coffins, traveling to Russia from the Donbass, spoke in May. But first Photofacts appeared only in June. "Cargo 200" recorded on the Ukrainian-Russian border journalist Tatiana Turchenkova. She was able to identify several of those killed. One of them - Sergey Zhdanovich instructor Special Forces Center of FSB of Russia, retired.
<a href="http://liga.net/">Источник</a>
But then it was mostly about the volunteers and mercenaries who have enough to ignite the war in Ukraine. Russian border guards passed freely willing to fight. Volunteers were given everything you need, including weapons and armor. But in July, the number of terrorists in Ukraine was rapidly shrinking. Kremlin became clear that irregular forces are not able to keep the Ukrainian army, freeing nearly all the Donbass.
July 16 came the first evidence of the invasion of the Russian Armed Forces. From this point on in the Ukraine started a small colony of Russian armor to go with the shaded marks of distinction and without military insignia. In the war with Ukraine joined the regular Russian army.
<a href="http://liga.net/">Источник</a>
Ukrainian military weekly seize Russian military equipment, yesterday attributed to one or another of Russian military units. About how there is a replacement of so-called "militias" regular army of the Russian Federation, told troopers arrested - those who managed to survive in Ukraine and to be captured rather than burn with armor under fire from artillery and aircraft.
"Number 17, we started loading onto the train. Disembarked near Rostov. Shaded numbers painted white circles. We explained that we would be teaching. White circle - unlike others. When realized we were already in Ukraine - was terrible. The car blew up. I realized that this is not a drill, and it's not just march ", - said Ivan Romantcev, Corporal, 331st Airborne Regiment, 98th Guards Airborne Division Svir (Kostroma).
About these paratroopers Vladimir Putin said that they were in Ukraine "by chance". Corporal Romantcev believes that such propaganda in Russia "does not correspond to reality." "Ukraine is defending his land," - said the soldier, adding that does not believe in randomness, which Putin said: "Our whole squadron went to Ukraine. I believe that since it is impossible to get lost." In late August, Ivan and the other detainees were exchanged for Ukrainian military captured militants and troops of the Russian Federation. Ukrainian security officials later claimed that the convoy was talking about Romantcev, was attacked and almost completely broken by artillery fire. Rota in the Russian army - about 120 people.
A few of the Russian paratroopers were detained under Ilovaiskaya - where previously the Russian regular troops shot Ukrainian colonies that were, on "behalf" Putin allegedly skipped. When the column came out, together with her shot and captured Russian soldiers. It is known that among the detainees was a squad commander Ruslan Akhmetov, a / h 73612, 31th Airborne Assault Brigade (Ulyanovsk). How many Russian soldiers were killed - only guess. Ukrainian soldiers who managed to escape from the boiler of the Russian Army, argue that the output covered tankers, destroyed about 50 Russian soldiers.
Another case of mass deaths of soldiers aggressor in Ukraine took place on August 13. The mother of one of the victims in Helena Tumanova interview with the Russian newspaper Novaya Gazeta said that the details of the death of his son Anton learned from his colleagues. Briefly, according to their description, the operation of the Russian army in the Ukraine looked like this: with two grenades on human and unprepared for combat equipment column of troops came to Ukraine came under the "Grad" in the area of snow - and a day later came back with huge losses - 120 dead 450 wounded.
Only on those three counts the number of dead Russian military is about 300 people.
Then reports of dead Russian paratroopers began to arrive one by one. September 1 Russian politician, the coordinator of the military opposition bloc, the founder of the "Georgia-200" Elena Vasilyeva reported that from Ukraine to Russia returned about 15 truckloads of corpses. "They piled on each other corpses of Russian soldiers. The number varies from different sources, from 800 to 1,000 people. Where are lucky - so far unknown. Many of the wounded in hospitals and clinics Yeisk," - she said.
According to the Ukrainian military expert Dmitry Tymchuk, a Russian military hospital in Rostov "no longer accepts wounded - packed to capacity." He noted that the hospital only works with the military personnel of the Russian Federation. "Russians carry their wounded to Peter, but already there is" no vacancies "- he says.
<a href="http://liga.net/">Источник</a>
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(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-4Vd3gBIE5Ao/U3ZhnCUp_iI/AAAAAAAAI5U/CnOjittySvU/s1600/800px-Kernkraftwerk_Saporischschja.JPG)
The Cyborg’s Song
six little Chernobyl’s, sittin in a row
six little Chernobyl’s, just waitin to blow
oh zap-a-o-rosie, your winds travel far
enough to carry isotopes to the home of the czar
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As a wise Englishman once observed that figuring out Russia is quite a complicated task.
Igor Strelkov, or KGB/FSB Colonel Igor Girkin to be more accurate, is the ethnic Russian who pretended to be an ethnic Ukrainian rebel and he has a point about his starting the war in Ukraine. That is his job--starting conflicts on behalf of the Russian security services.
Strelkov/Girkin was a part of starting the conflict in Transnistria, the "frozen conflict" that still exists today.
Strelkov/Girkin was an operative for Russia in the Bosnian War.
Strelkov/Girkin played on the Russian team in the First Chechen War.
Strelkov/Girkin was sent back to the Caucasus by the FSB as an operative for Russia in the Second Chechen War.
Strelkov/Girkin was in early and knee-deep in Crimea during the invasion and annexation of the former/longstanding Greek and then Turkish/Ottoman territory briefly occupied by Russia between 1783 to 1954, and then given to Ukraine. While in Crimea he led in the overthrow of the locally elected Russian dominated local government and democratically elected Parliament in favour of a non-elected appointed government and new non-elected parliament that suddenly expressed an itching sensation requiring the native Tatars to again suffer under the Russian flag.
Strelkov/Girkin was then sent to Donbass to to stir things up in Eastern Ukraine. He appointed himself as the "Defense Minister" and pretended to be an ethnic Ukrainian until "outed" on his Russian nationality.
Strelkov/Girkin was eventually recalled to Moscow and given the position of setting up a new semi-secretive shadow organization charged with protecting the Kremlin from any so-called "Colour Revolutions."
Now he has come out in Russian media, a tightly controlled media, to claim some fame for his deeds. http://www.unian.info/politics/1011888-girkin-says-he-and-his-special-ops-team-started-conflict-in-donbas.html (http://www.unian.info/politics/1011888-girkin-says-he-and-his-special-ops-team-started-conflict-in-donbas.html)
As to whether he has turned against Putin, and is telling his side of the story out of a desire for revenge or fame, is up for speculation. Perhaps the play is a misdirection, and there is more to the story than meets the eye. Until more is known, I'm hanging out with Winston Churchill, thinking that even in the case of Igor Strelkov/Girkin, "Russia is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma."
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This Strelkov character must have 9 lives. How he's managed to be in so many different wars without being killed or at least get a leg blown off is amazing.
As to what he's up to now I'm sure it's been planned and agreed upon that he would do this, so that Putin can claim that Strelkov did it without official Kremlin blessing.
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Yanukovych’s embezzler is now a citizen of Israel
2014/11/20 • News
One of the most wanted associates of Viktor Yanukovych, the former energy minister Eduard Stavytskyi, has taken Israeli citizenship and changed his name to Rosenberg, reports journalist and newly elected deputy Serhiy Leshchenko on his blog, November 20.
“According to my sources, Stavytskyi is now Eduard Rosenberg,” Leshchenko writes. Stavytskyi’s wife, Olena, is now Helena Rosenberg.
According to Leshchenko, it was Stavytsky who in 2007 implemented the scheme to steal Mezhyhiria (Yanukovych’s palatial residence near Kyiv — Ed.) and who planted in Yanukovych’s mind the “complex of impunity and unlimited wealth.”
Stavytskyi reached his career heights after the election of Yanukovych when he became minister of the environment and then minister of energy. During the Yanukovych era he obtained some two dozen permits for the development and subsequent extraction of oil and gas for his firm Golden Derrick LLC (for at least 28 fields in Ukraine ! — Ed.)
“When Yanukovych’s regime fell, Stavytskyi tried to negotiate. He began to relate on television how he was an underground partisan-patriot,” Leshchenko says. However, the ex-minister still had to leave the country due to his status as a suspect in the matter of the “misappropriation and embezzlement of an especially large sum of government property through abuse of power.”
A search conducted at the Stavytskyi residence after he fled the country uncovered a collection of watches, some of which cost more than $600,000, diamonds, 42 kilograms of gold, and $5 million in cash. He was placed on the Interpol international most wanted list, but reports appeared this summer that he had received Israeli citizenship, which placed him out of reach of Ukrainian justice since Israel does not extradite its citizens.
watches 300x225 Yanukovychs embezzler is now a citizen of Israel“Therefore, Stavytskyi has escaped unscathed; he was free to live in his new country and the only limitation was the fact that he could not travel abroad since the Ukrainian arrest warrant was in effect there. However. things are even worse that they appeared. Stavytskyi has bought not only freedom but a new life. He is now Eduard Rosenberg,” Leschenko writes.
“Thus a citizen of Ukraine, whose arrest had been authorized worldwide, has transformed himself into a respectable citizen of Israel. With a passport under the name of Eduard Rosenberg, he can travel freely around the globe since he is no longer wanted. That is easy to verify on the Interpol site,” he adds.
According to Leschenko, “the Stavytskyis are now registered in Israel, at Hahoresh, 101, Kfar Shmaryahu — a respectable suburb of Tel Aviv near the sea coast, consisting mostly of villas.” He encourages readers who live in Tel Aviv to locate and photograph the property.
Meanwhile, Leschenko insists that he and his colleagues will appeal to the Prosecutor General to place Stavytskyi on the Interpol wanted list under his new name. “If we are unable to extract him from Israel, at least we should deprive him of the chance to move freely around the world and to enjoy the wealth he has looted from Ukraine,” he concludes.
Adapted and translated from Leshchenko’s blog.
http://euromaidanpress.com/201...a-citizen-of-israel/
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How Russia parted easily with the "Novorossiya" leaders -
http://www.interpretermag.com/managed-spring-how-moscow-parted-easily-with-the-novorossiya-leaders/
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Putin's real strategy -
http://www.interpretermag.com/putin-supports-ukraines-territorial-integrity-as-a-rope-supports-a-hanging-man/
http://www.interpretermag.com/putin-wants-a-new-munich-on-ukraine-but-may-not-get-it-butakov-says/
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Boe, you got ahead of me. ;D
Edit: The second article talks about FTs win-win scenario.
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:)
Here is another piece on "Novorossiya" -
The negative view of Ukrainian nationalism is similarly typical for most residents in the Donbas, and “Novorossiya” – South-Eastern Ukraine. The Kremlin ideologists primitively explain this as a result of
predominating Russian-speaking or ethnically Russian population there.
In fact, all Ukrainian censuses demonstrate that this is not true. The language is not an issue as proven by many Russian-speaking patriots from South-Eastern Ukraine fighting in the Donbas today.
Imperial ideologists blatantly lie, when they claim that the Donbas mentality today is supposedly evidence of the fact that “Novorossiya” is a historical “essentially Russian province”.
http://ukrainianweek.com/Society/125334 (http://ukrainianweek.com/Society/125334)
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Edit: The second article talks about FTs win-win scenario.
Yes, thanks for the link...I couldn't believe I saw somebody else use those words 'win-win' in this crisis...I feel like I should be rewarded for a patent plagiarism!
Now if the west plays it's role properly that will be the end result.
Fathertime!
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Yes, thanks for the link...I couldn't believe I saw somebody else use those words 'win-win' in this crisis...I feel like I should be rewarded for a patent plagiarism!
FT, your ''reward ''should be a bar of soap to wash you mouth out with imo
people are dying while you make such flippant comments
SX
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FT, your ''reward ''should be a bar of soap to wash you mouth out with imo
people are dying while you make such flippant comments
SX
You are selectively offended. You only hypocritically approve of 'flippant' comments if they agree with your politics. So far that was the first linked article that used my "win-win' phrase and discussed a possible solution I proposed early on. :clapping:
Fathertime!
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It also rejected that "solution".
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It also rejected that "solution".
For now nothing has been resolved....for now....but eventually there will be a resolution, and I have always felt the final resolution will be something along the lines of what that article you linked spoke of....
Fathertime!
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The point is, though, that such a scenario won't be a solution. I tend to agree.
Russia doesn't want the Donbas, and it is not in Ukraine's interests to allow it to remain part of Ukraine, yet autonomously controlled.
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You are selectively offended. You only hypocritically approve of 'flippant' comments if they agree with your politics. So far that was the first linked article that used my "win-win' phrase and discussed a possible solution I proposed early on. :clapping:
Fathertime!
Following your logic it would be win/win if someday Mexico invades the USA and attempts to take large swaths of territory. And if we ever have another "President" as weak as Obama it will happen.
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Is the Russian invasion of Ukraine a Russian version of "Lebensraum"? This writer thinks so, and he draws other parallels between Putin's Russia and Hitler's Germany.
excerpt
"But besides these parallels, there are some very important differences, Eidman writes. The FSB-Gestapo “in general seeks not enemies of the Reich but rather is a racket” which is seeking to pocket as much in corrupt cash as it can. And the Defense Ministry-Wehrmacht is prepared to sell off military equipment and cash in as well.
Moreover, he continues, “Every one of our ‘Reich ministers’ or SS Gruppenführers-FSB officers has a house in London or a villa in Cannes. And the ‘Gauleiters’ (governors) in general have ceased thinking about the interests of the Reich.”
“And where is ‘the Führer’s concern about Germans’ (that is, Russians)? Where are the new autobahns, ‘strength through joy,’ inexpensive housing and cruises for workers?” None of that is present because “all our successes are in the sphere of propaganda” rather than reality. In that, Putin’s Russia has left Goebbels’ Germany in the dust.
But underneath those differences there are fundamental commonalities, Eidman says. “The main thing is this: Our Reich also wants to take revenge for defeat in war, in this case in the Cold War.” It too wants “Lebensraum” and is “successfully” pursuing that idea via the Russian world idea."
http://www.interpretermag.com/ever-more-putin-associates-bear-a-resemblance-to-nazi-ones-eidman-says/
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Following your logic it would be win/win if someday Mexico invades the USA and attempts to take large swaths of territory. And if we ever have another "President" as weak as Obama it will happen.
I reject your comparison as silly.
You are using the win/win comment in regards to something that hasn't happened as Mexico has not invaded the US nor will they...and if they did, it would entail an entirely different set of variables...for the situation at hand in Ukraine, I hold the win/win in the linked article could be a resolution to the current conflict....and the world moves on.
Fathertime!
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You are selectively offended. You only hypocritically approve of 'flippant' comments if they agree with your politics. So far that was the first linked article that used my "win-win' phrase and discussed a possible solution I proposed early on. :clapping:
Fathertime!
FT, PLEASE show me where iv hypocritically ''approved of others flippant comments ??
russias agrression and invasion/support of these insurgent/ terrorists is causing destruction and death , its affecting millions of people , while you echo neville chamberlin with your win win twaddle
SX
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FT, PLEASE show me where iv hypocritically ''approved of others flippant comments ??
russias agrression and invasion/support of these insurgent/ terrorists is causing destruction and death , its affecting millions of people , while you echo neville chamberlin with your win win twaddle
SX
By only trying to call out certain comments (strictly because you disagree with the political position behind it) you have tacitly approved of the others...whether you like it or not.
quickly comparing the current situation to Neville Chamberlin is just a non-thinking shortcut and twaddle. ;)
I'm starting to believe that you will be very disappointed if this situation is resolved in such a way.
Fathertime!
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By only trying to call out certain comments (strictly because you disagree with the political position behind it) you have tacitly approved of the others...whether you like it or not.
quickly comparing the current situation to Neville Chamberlin is just a non-thinking shortcut and twaddle. ;)
I'm starting to believe that you will be very disappointed if this situation is resolved in such a way.
Fathertime!
So you deny that Russia has invaded Ukraine and that Ukraine had a right to defend their sovereign territory? Twaddle indeed.
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So you deny that Russia has invaded Ukraine and that Ukraine had a right to defend their sovereign territory? Twaddle indeed.
What is 'twaddle' is you asking silly questions! I didn't say either of those things. Yes twaddle indeed.
Fathertime!
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What is 'twaddle' is you asking silly questions! I didn't say either of those things. Yes twaddle indeed.
Fathertime!
Okay, so are you now admitting that Russia did indeed invade Ukraine? And what is your definition of "win/win"? My definition is Russia pulls out of E. Ukraine entirely, stops arming and paying their mercenaries there, and gives back Crimea and then pays Ukraine war damages.
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Okay, so are you now admitting that Russia did indeed invade Ukraine? And what is your definition of "win/win"? My definition is Russia pulls out of E. Ukraine entirely, stops arming and paying their mercenaries there, and gives back Crimea and then pays Ukraine war damages.
You must be confusing me with somebody else. I wasn't in the camp that was saying that Russia wasn't involved with the separatists.
I think the win/win you have written is pie in the sky. An end to hostilities and regular people in the regions back to doing regular things is a lofty enough goal. The way that will happen is if both sides get some of what they want.
Fathertime!
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Putin has stated that Russia wants a veto on Ukraine developing closer ties to the EU. That is not going to happen, so there can be no "win win".
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Putin has stated that Russia wants a veto on Ukraine developing closer ties to the EU. That is not going to happen, so there can be no "win win".
can you provide a link showing that quote?..wants vs demands is a big difference.
I'd say most everything is negotiable at this point.
Fathertime!
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You can google it. Lavrov made this statement even will the Minsk Accord was being negotiated.
Russia does not want the Donbas. They want the region to be an anchor around Kyiv's neck. At this point, either it has to come back into the fold as it did, or it can be independent. It is not a vital area to Ukraine or its future.
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You can google it. Lavrov made this statement even will the Minsk Accord was being negotiated.
Russia does not want the Donbas. They want the region to be an anchor around Kyiv's neck. At this point, either it has to come back into the fold as it did, or it can be independent. It is not a vital area to Ukraine or its future.
just googled it...don't see it...i'd like to see the statement in context that YOU brought it up in. I did see that he made a statement like that regarding Moldova.
Fathertime!
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just googled it...don't see it...i'd like to see the statement in context that YOU brought it up in. I did see that he made a statement like that regarding Moldova.
Fathertime!
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/russias-lavrov-warns-ukraine-against-joining-nato-slams-u-s-n195396
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http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/russias-lavrov-warns-ukraine-against-joining-nato-slams-u-s-n195396 (http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/russias-lavrov-warns-ukraine-against-joining-nato-slams-u-s-n195396)
Thank you for providing the link, but that was regarding NATO...Is that what Boethius was referring to when she talked of closer ties to the EU? If so, it was misleading. There is a big difference between joining NATO andcloser ties to the EU.
Fathertime!
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Thank you for providing the link, but that was regarding NATO...Is that what Boethius was referring to when she talked of closer ties to the EU? If so, it was misleading. There is a big difference between joining NATO andcloser ties to the EU.
http://www.euronews.com/2014/09/17/russia-warns-ukraine-over-historic-deal-with-the-eu/
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http://www.euronews.com/2014/09/17/russia-warns-ukraine-over-historic-deal-with-the-eu/ (http://www.euronews.com/2014/09/17/russia-warns-ukraine-over-historic-deal-with-the-eu/)
Thank you for attempting to provide the link/quote Boethius was referring to...BUT I'm not seeing the quote where V. Putin was wanting to have "VETO POWER" My impression is she was referring to something else, or that the quote doesn't exist.
Fathertime!
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Putin stated that Russia should have the right to determine whether or not Ukraine joins the EU. He has stated that to Poroshenko, and to Merkel. Merkel countered it in a speech a few weeks ago.
Meanwhile, a rebuttal to any "win win" scenarios.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/12/11/peace-in-ukraine-by-appeasing-putin-refuting-the-ill-informed-proposal/2/
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Meanwhile Russia has been causing concern in the Baltics.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/11/russia-military-action-escalate-tension-baltic-nato
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Putin stated that Russia should have the right to determine whether or not Ukraine joins the EU. He has stated that to Poroshenko, and to Merkel. Merkel countered it in a speech a few weeks ago.
Meanwhile, a rebuttal to any "win win" scenarios.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/12/11/peace-in-ukraine-by-appeasing-putin-refuting-the-ill-informed-proposal/2/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/12/11/peace-in-ukraine-by-appeasing-putin-refuting-the-ill-informed-proposal/2/)
I read the link you provided to back up your earlier statement regarding putin wanting veto power over Ukraine getting closer to the EU. If this is the resource you are talking about, it doesn't appear to back up your statement. I don't see the Putin quote. I don't see any discussion about the conversation with Merkel you are referring to. If these conversations exist and are quoted from a reasonably reliable source, I would be able to accept them as probably being true....but thus far I don't see that, but I'd like to so the conversation can move past this issue.
Fathertime!
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I didn't provide a link re Putin, and the link I provided was not about that particular statement. I've moved on.
Most of my readings are in Ukrainian, which won't help you much. Putin made the statement directly to Poroshenko. It was referenced in speeches by both Merkel and Barrosso, the last, about 3 weeks ago.
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Baltic states have a very good reason to be wary of Russia -- just look at their past history with the Bear.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/18/baltic-states-wary-russia-strident-estonia-latvia-lithuania-nato
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I didn't provide a link re Putin, and the link I provided was not about that particular statement. I've moved on.
Most of my readings are in Ukrainian, which won't help you much. Putin made the statement directly to Poroshenko. It was referenced in speeches by both Merkel and Barrosso, the last, about 3 weeks ago.
Well then it can't be discussed if you have 'moved on' but I have yet to see reason to say it isn't possible for an agreement as stated in that earlier link you provided regarding the win/win. ... At this point I will move on from that topic also unless there is more you or anyone else would like to add.
Fathertime!
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Well then it can't be discussed if you have 'moved on' but I have yet to see reason to say it isn't possible for an agreement as stated in that earlier link you provided regarding the win/win. ... At this point I will move on from that topic also unless there is more you or anyone else would like to add.
Fathertime!
There simply is no "win/win" as Putin cannot be at all trusted.
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/david-j-kramer-there-will-be-no-win-win-deal-with-putin/2014/12/11/a70df8c4-7fd2-11e4-9f38-95a187e4c1f7_story.html
I agree with Kramer (article above) that the idea of "win-win" is something that Mr. Putin finds to be a weakness of the West. It would be laughable, if not overly silly, to expect Moscow to enter into any kind of compromise that somehow purported to defend the sovereignty of Ukraine's borders should they be revised. Why? Because Moscow had already signed an agreement to honor and defend Ukraine's standing borders -- when Ukraine agreed to give up nuclear weapons. That was the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances.
Russia now claims that it is not bound to that agreement any longer given the crisis in Ukraine. Translation: we will honor international agreements when we think best, and find an excuse when it no longer suits us.
Earlier this year Russia proposed to the EU that a trilateral agreement be considered on Ukraine, specifically that Russia be included in the negotiations of Ukraine's EU Association proposal. The proposal suggested that Russia be given a vote on if and when Ukraine could enter into EU pacts. http://euobserver.com/foreign/124933
Previously European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso had said: "What we cannot accept is a condition on a bilateral agreement to have a kind of a possible veto of a third country. This is contrary to all principles of international law." http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-2515461 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25154618)
Russia has negotiated with the EU on the extent and timing of Ukraine's EU partnership. http://en.delfi.lt/eu/association-agreement-with-eu-victory-for-ukraine-or-russia.d?id=65871160
When Mr. Putin spoke to EU representatives in Minsk (26-27 August), he said, "As you may know, Ukraine is deeply integrated into the CIS (http://eng.kremlin.ru/terms/C#term_40) economic space. Alongside Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan, it is actually an inseparable part of the largest economic complex in the world, which took ages, rather than years or decades, to create – and this is no exaggeration."
"Russia has stated on numerous occasions that full acceptance by our Ukrainian friends of all the tariff liberalisation requirements and the adoption of the European Union technical, sanitary and veterinary norms will have a negative impact on the scope and dynamics of trade and investment cooperation in Eurasia." "Not to mention the fact that all these norms – the EU sanitary norms and regulations that we do not apply or apply only partially, and the technical regulations will actually close the Ukrainian market for our goods, for goods from the Customs Union and Russia." http://eng.kremlin.ru/transcripts/22851
DCFTARussia was successful in convincing the EU to delay the full DCFTA agreement until 2016 at minimum.
http://www.economonitor.com/thoughtsacrossatlantic/2014/09/16/is-postponing-the-eu-trade-agreement-harmful-to-ukraine/
http://www.euronews.com/2014/09/16/ukraine-critics-denounce-russian-influence-over-eu-trade-deal/
http://www.euronews.com/2014/09/16/eu-and-ukraine-parliaments-hail-historic-treaty/
Moscow is also pressuring Moldova and Georgia in their attempts to sign EU association agreements.
http://www.euronews.com/2014/09/16/eu-and-ukraine-parliaments-hail-historic-treaty/
http://www.bne.eu/content/story/pro-eu-parties-reach-coalition-deal-moldova-moscow-cries-foul
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Meanwhile Russia has been causing concern in the Baltics.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/11/russia-military-action-escalate-tension-baltic-nato (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/11/russia-military-action-escalate-tension-baltic-nato)
What are you suggesting? Stay calm while NATO is getting ready to fight?
Russia has the point
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Actually, Mendi provided very good links that explain Russia's POV
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You cannot reason with these people.
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/david-j-kramer-there-will-be-no-win-win-deal-with-putin/2014/12/11/a70df8c4-7fd2-11e4-9f38-95a187e4c1f7_story.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/david-j-kramer-there-will-be-no-win-win-deal-with-putin/2014/12/11/a70df8c4-7fd2-11e4-9f38-95a187e4c1f7_story.html)
I agree with Kramer (article above) that the idea of "win-win" is something that Mr. Putin finds to be a weakness of the West. It would be laughable, if not overly silly, to expect Moscow to enter into any kind of compromise that somehow purported to defend the sovereignty of Ukraine's borders should they be revised. Why? Because Moscow had already signed an agreement to honor and defend Ukraine's standing borders -- when Ukraine agreed to give up nuclear weapons. That was the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances.
Thanks Mendeleyev for providing both the link and your opinion. I am not surprised the McCain Institute has such a viewpoint as I feel practically anything associated with John McCain is going to be too hawkish.
It is interesting how the win/win is suddenly getting so much airtime finally. I continue to believe that is the most likely way to see this end...or I guess they can just continue to fight it out.
Fathertime!
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/david-j-kramer-there-will-be-no-win-win-deal-with-putin/2014/12/11/a70df8c4-7fd2-11e4-9f38-95a187e4c1f7_story.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/david-j-kramer-there-will-be-no-win-win-deal-with-putin/2014/12/11/a70df8c4-7fd2-11e4-9f38-95a187e4c1f7_story.html)
I agree with Kramer (article above) that the idea of "win-win" is something that Mr. Putin finds to be a weakness of the West. It would be laughable, if not overly silly, to expect Moscow to enter into any kind of compromise that somehow purported to defend the sovereignty of Ukraine's borders should they be revised. Why? Because Moscow had already signed an agreement to honor and defend Ukraine's standing borders -- when Ukraine agreed to give up nuclear weapons. That was the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances.
Russia now claims that it is not bound to that agreement any longer given the crisis in Ukraine. Translation: we will honor international agreements when we think best, and find an excuse when it no longer suits us.
Earlier this year Russia proposed to the EU that a trilateral agreement be considered on Ukraine, specifically that Russia be included in the negotiations of Ukraine's EU Association proposal. The proposal suggested that Russia be given a vote on if and when Ukraine could enter into EU pacts. http://euobserver.com/foreign/124933 (http://euobserver.com/foreign/124933)
Previously European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso had said: "What we cannot accept is a condition on a bilateral agreement to have a kind of a possible veto of a third country. This is contrary to all principles of international law." http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-2515461 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25154618)
Russia has negotiated with the EU on the extent and timing of Ukraine's EU partnership. http://en.delfi.lt/eu/association-agreement-with-eu-victory-for-ukraine-or-russia.d?id=65871160 (http://en.delfi.lt/eu/association-agreement-with-eu-victory-for-ukraine-or-russia.d?id=65871160)
When Mr. Putin spoke to EU representatives in Minsk (26-27 August), he said, "As you may know, Ukraine is deeply integrated into the CIS (http://eng.kremlin.ru/terms/C#term_40) economic space. Alongside Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan, it is actually an inseparable part of the largest economic complex in the world, which took ages, rather than years or decades, to create – and this is no exaggeration."
"Russia has stated on numerous occasions that full acceptance by our Ukrainian friends of all the tariff liberalisation requirements and the adoption of the European Union technical, sanitary and veterinary norms will have a negative impact on the scope and dynamics of trade and investment cooperation in Eurasia." "Not to mention the fact that all these norms – the EU sanitary norms and regulations that we do not apply or apply only partially, and the technical regulations will actually close the Ukrainian market for our goods, for goods from the Customs Union and Russia." http://eng.kremlin.ru/transcripts/22851 (http://eng.kremlin.ru/transcripts/22851)
DCFTARussia was successful in convincing the EU to delay the full DCFTA agreement until 2016 at minimum.
http://www.economonitor.com/thoughtsacrossatlantic/2014/09/16/is-postponing-the-eu-trade-agreement-harmful-to-ukraine/ (http://www.economonitor.com/thoughtsacrossatlantic/2014/09/16/is-postponing-the-eu-trade-agreement-harmful-to-ukraine/)
http://www.euronews.com/2014/09/16/ukraine-critics-denounce-russian-influence-over-eu-trade-deal/ (http://www.euronews.com/2014/09/16/ukraine-critics-denounce-russian-influence-over-eu-trade-deal/)
http://www.euronews.com/2014/09/16/eu-and-ukraine-parliaments-hail-historic-treaty/ (http://www.euronews.com/2014/09/16/eu-and-ukraine-parliaments-hail-historic-treaty/)
Moscow is also pressuring Moldova and Georgia in their attempts to sign EU association agreements.
http://www.euronews.com/2014/09/16/eu-and-ukraine-parliaments-hail-historic-treaty/ (http://www.euronews.com/2014/09/16/eu-and-ukraine-parliaments-hail-historic-treaty/)
http://www.bne.eu/content/story/pro-eu-parties-reach-coalition-deal-moldova-moscow-cries-foul (http://www.bne.eu/content/story/pro-eu-parties-reach-coalition-deal-moldova-moscow-cries-foul)
Oh boy.
Now Mendy, look what you've done to Mr. Fathead.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/headupass_zpsbb65861c.jpg)
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Thanks Mendeleyev for providing both the link and your opinion. I am not surprised the McCain Institute has such a viewpoint as I feel practically anything associated with John McCain is going to be too hawkish.
It is interesting how the win/win is suddenly getting so much airtime finally. I continue to believe that is the most likely way to see this end...or I guess they can just continue to fight it out.
Fathertime!
Nope, you were arguing that Putin never said he wanted a veto on Ukraine's EU aspirations.
See photo above.
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Nope, you were arguing that Putin never said he wanted a veto on Ukraine's EU aspirations.
See photo above.
Well it looks like mr dumdum STILL can't figure things out for himself! I was asking for links, which for the information of the feeble-minded is different than taking a position on the issue. See if you can figure that out. Now that the links have been provided I shall conduct a review and form an opinion. ;)
Fathertime!
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I agree with Muzh.
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Not sure what thread the question was asked in-- I replied with info I had at that time-- updated info on the number of Russian troops in Ukraine as follows.
In the area of ATU now wielded to 10 thousand Russian soldiers - General Staff
As of date, the ATO area is 10 thousand Russian soldiers
This was stated by Chief of General Staff of Armed Forces of Ukraine Viktor Muzhenko, reports Espreso.TV referring to TSN.
"Immediately there is the armed forces of the Russian Federation anywhere from 6 th to 8 th, and by some estimates, up to 10 thousand people," - said Muzhenko.
He added that the entire eastern Ukrainian-Russian border holds about 50 thousand. Russian troops.
Earlier in the General Staff reported on the border with Ukraine are over 40 battalion tactical groups of 4 Company tactical group and large group of aviation.
It was also reported that Ukraine has no control over 409.3 kilometers of the state border with Russia.
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From http://www.interpretermag.com/russians-used-humanitarian-convoys-to-send-militants-into-ukraine-russian-organizer-of-this-effort-says/
This week one of the most appalling lies about what Russia has done in Ukraine was revealed as such by a Russian with close links to that country’s security agencies (http://e1.ru/news/spool/news_id-416966.html). In an interview, Vladimir Yefimov said he had helped Russian militants get into Ukraine by hiding in one of the humanitarian convoys Moscow sent there.
That Moscow had abused the trust of the international community in this way had long been known by those closely following the situation in Ukraine. Indeed, Moscow’s misuse of such convoys in support of its military goals had even become the subject of Western political cartoons.
Now, thanks to Yefimov, a Russian has confirmed what Russia has done, and the level of detail he provides, the photographs of those involved, and the reproductions of the forms he and his comrades use leave little doubt that Yefimov is now telling at least most of the truth when he said that Russians who volunteered to fight in Ukraine “went under the guise of the Red Cross.”
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Good article on the leaders of the "LNR".
http://ukrainianweek.com/Society/126465
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Another good article on the SBU.
http://ukrainianweek.com/Politics/126456 (http://ukrainianweek.com/Politics/126456)
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From the link above (timely, as it was discussed on the forum today) -
U.W: Is it possible to win this war through negotiations and truces?This is unrealistic. All wars end with truces and some agreements, but the problem lies elsewhere. You have to know who you are talking to. Having a dialogue with puppets like Denis Pushylin (a leader of separatists in Donetsk Oblast, an organizer of pro-Russian rallies in the spring of 2014, self-proclaimed ex-deputy speaker of the Donetsk People’s Republic. In July, Pushylin fled to Moscow and announced his resignation – Ed.) who do not decide anything on their own territory means supporting Moscow’s myth that this is not Russian occupation. But it is exactly that, so Russia should be recognized as the aggressor, Ukraine should turn to the Budapest Memorandum signatories and speak to Russia in that format, not to the Donetsk or Luhanks People’s Republics. As soon as we do all this homework of ours and strengthen our army in the meantime, the world may find itself on the verge of a global conflict but the entire global system of checks and balances will finally start working. If we don’t do our homework, do not fight and keep wearing rose-colored glasses of pacifism, why would someone from Alabama or the UK fight for us?
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So if this thing is only going to be won by war, what is stopping NATO?
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UA isn't a member of NATO.
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From the link above (timely, as it was discussed on the forum today) -
U.W: Is it possible to win this war through negotiations and truces?This is unrealistic. All wars end with truces and some agreements, but the problem lies elsewhere. You have to know who you are talking to. Having a dialogue with puppets like Denis Pushylin (a leader of separatists in Donetsk Oblast, an organizer of pro-Russian rallies in the spring of 2014, self-proclaimed ex-deputy speaker of the Donetsk People’s Republic. In July, Pushylin fled to Moscow and announced his resignation – Ed.) who do not decide anything on their own territory means supporting Moscow’s myth that this is not Russian occupation. But it is exactly that, so Russia should be recognized as the aggressor, Ukraine should turn to the Budapest Memorandum signatories and speak to Russia in that format, not to the Donetsk or Luhanks People’s Republics. As soon as we do all this homework of ours and strengthen our army in the meantime, the world may find itself on the verge of a global conflict but the entire global system of checks and balances will finally start working. If we don’t do our homework, do not fight and keep wearing rose-colored glasses of pacifism, why would someone from Alabama or the UK fight for us?
Great post. There is only peace through strength. Very sad that Ukraine was fooled into giving up their means of defending their territory.
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UA isn't a member of NATO.
There is always a reason for not doing the right thing.
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When Churchill spoke to the US Congress on December 26th, 1941, he told the US people that they should prepare for a very tough 1942. He also said that 1943 would be better and then, 1944 would be when the tide would turn and Nazi aggression could be defeated.
Unless Russia does something precipitously, I see a similar situation evolving in Ukraine. 2015 and 2016 will be used to stabilize the Ukrainian economy and provide initial militarization. Then, as Ukraine gears for war, Russia will slowly back off. My guess is that ultimately, Eastern Ukraine will be retaken and Krim will be left to its own devices.
However, the Bear in the room is going to be wounded and there will be some blood on the floor before it is over.
What I think that the Russians have yet to understand is that the Ukrainians view the Russians the same way the Russians viewed the Germans during WWII. That ambush of the surrendered Ukrainians promised free passage sticks in their memories.
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Interesting links( all have some info worth noting) .
The issue of a truce /ceasefire has many aspects that get confused--the key point I 110% agree with above is that Ukraine should ONLY deal with Russia on these issues is important.
Over a period of time the Ukrainian military has got better and more capable. In saying that--I would still be wary of what it is capable of achieving without substantial help from the west-but - it has been able to get systems in place much better than 6 months ago.
The terrorist "militants" have ignored the "ceasefire" when and wherever it suits them-- and backed by actual Russian army artillery have continued attacking .
Forcing Russia to acknowledge and accept responsibility is politically important for Ukraine-- and the bigger picture resolution.
The "ceasefire" has bought valuable time for Ukraine to get better organised- but has also allowed supply to the terrorists and Russian army in Ukraine.The decision to negotiate and the compromises was pragmatic and relevant at the time. I wrote earlier that back in August/September I often heard the idea of letting the Donbas go if it meant peace for then rest of Ukraine--by November the mood had changed to-the Donbas is Ukrainian and we will fight for it.
I am sure that time will work in Ukraine's favour-the longer they can hold on in a military sense-- the more difficult it will be for Russia to keep telling it's lies to the world-- and most particularly to it's own people.The harder sanctions and embargo's bite-the more pressure on Russia and they will impact even harder on a Russian economy that was heading into recession regardless.
The other big factor in 2015 will be the gradual build up of western military aid-that will be the nail in the coffin for Russia--and probably Putin himself.
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Jay, it was Ukraine that ignored ceasefire- every time!
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Jay, it was Ukraine that ignored ceasefire- every time!
And you know this how?
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Jay, it was Ukraine that ignored ceasefire- every time!
Doll-- silly denial of facts is just plain ridiculous and a waste of your time writing and our time reading .
If you simply took the Russian position-- ie-- Crimea has always belonged to Russia and Ukraine needs to do as Russia tells them to and forget any silly notion of Ukrainian independence --then you could be viewed as honest as you would be recognising the reality of the situation.
Instead--you make yourself look and sound as ridiculous as the Kremlin propaganda you keep relying on.The Kremlins aim is to try and create enough confusion to fool the Russian people completely about the truth( eg you Doll regurgitating ) and delay anyone trying to resist and then paint them as the aggressor.
Simply look at the Kremlin pronouncements this year over Ukraine-- with the benefit of hindsight it is very east to see the lie being created eg no Russian troops in Crimea etc
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If Crimea is Ukrainian, the why is it only the Tatars are willing to fight? Why did so many of them celebrate? It is not as simplistic as many of us would like to believe. There are bad people who live there who always lived there. And they have to suffer to change or be removed.
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Jay, it was Ukraine that ignored ceasefire- every time!
Not according to independent observers.
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And you know this how?
A little midget named Huiiilo told her so.
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If Crimea is Ukrainian, the why is it only the Tatars are willing to fight? Why did so many of them celebrate? It is not as simplistic as many of us would like to believe. There are bad people who live there who always lived there. And they have to suffer to change or be removed.
LT--it is not "only the Tatars are willing to fight". Time will tell you what the real situation is.
It should never be forgotten that it is (& was)highly unlikely that a majority of Crimeans wanted to leave Ukraine.
Even those that may have thought that way-- were referencing the old Ukraine and Yanukovych and co.-- the new directions were never given an opportunity to come into effect.
Another small aside--if you ask people relying on the state for their income " do you want your entitlement raised 3 fold"?-- chances are that most would say--"yes please"--without thinking of the consequences or potential complications.That was the carrot put in front of Crimeans and those in eastern Ukraine . As they have found out to their detriment it was never as simple as that.
Condemning any of these people is simply wrong approach to reconciling them-either now or in the future.
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This excerpt from the link above shows how Russia directly violated Ukrainian sovereignty and tried to shape the future of Ukraine prior to Maidan and the resignation of Yanukovych.
excerpt
U.W: How strong was Russian influence in the SBU?
Oleksandr Yakymenko himself was an agent of the Russian special services. So were his henchmen. In fact, under Yanukovych, 90% of those surrounding the SBU leadership were residents of Russia. Moreover, FSB (the Russian Federal Security Service – Ed.) officers worked there on a permanent basis, having their individual offices and separate entrances in key departments. During the Maidan, FSB and Vympel (an elite Russian special force unit under the FSB command – Ed.) people stayed at one of the SBU bases. Russian representatives were also in the SBU headquarters. In other words, the SBU was directly reformatted into a section of the Russian security service. The only functions tasked to the Ukrainian structure, other than to represent the FSB, was to protect Yanukovych and his political class and to destroy the opposition. These tasks came directly from the Presidential Administration. The SBU also ensured seamless financial flows for the Family from corruption, customs, contraband and so on.
http://ukrainianweek.com/Politics/126456
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A little midget named Huiiilo told her so.
Don't you dare to insult Doll's beloved Supreme Leader!
:naughty:
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Don't you dare to insult Doll's beloved Supreme Leader!
:naughty:
YOU WILL GET BANNED. SHE HAS A DIRECT CONNECTION TO EDWARD.
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Not according to independent observers.
Like who the OSCE?
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LT--it is not "only the Tatars are willing to fight". Time will tell you what the real situation is.
agree
Condemning any of these people is simply wrong approach to reconciling them-either now or in the future.
Really?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyEIi_ZbGGo
Those people have one chance to redeem themselves. That is to pick up a rifle and push the Russian out. If not they can, share the Russian destiny.
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NATO begins to train Ukrainian NCO corps
By Alex Statko for Southeast European Times in Kyiv | 2014-12-19
A co-operative training programme will boost the number of highly qualified sergeants in the Ukrainian Army.
Ukraine's military is taking advantage of a unique opportunity to raise professionalism by seeking NATO's assistance to improve its military education programmes.
Military commanders and analysts said enrolling Ukrainian soldiers in courses where they will learn to become sergeants according to NATO standards will bring "great results" for the further success of Ukrainian Army.
"Sergeant is the basis of any army in the world, because he commands the soldiers directly," Valeriy Ryabykh of Defence Express Media and Consulting, told to SETimes. "Today, character of the war has changed very much. If earlier military commanders prepared extensive frontline operations, very large-scale, in the modern conditions we are talking about manoeuvrable-type operations, both in defence and in attack. The role of tactical link increases and who is to supervise the tactical level? Yes, these people are sergeants. Therefore, they play a key role in the army now."
A Non-commissioned Officer (NCO) training programme that complies with NATO standards will begin in the army academy named after Hetman Petro Sahaydachnyi, located in Lviv. Later, the programme will be implemented in other Ukrainian cities.
A NATO military delegation visited the Sahaydachnyi Academy on December 17th. Alliance experts and experienced trainers attended the training process of Ukrainian sergeants to check their preparedness and learn about current education methods.
"We are ready for constructive dialogue and the full support of the Ukrainian Armed Forces," Boguslaw Pacek, a retired Polish major general who is NATO's adviser for military education reform in Ukraine, told reporters during the visit to the academy. "I would like to say that the whole world supports progressive desire of the Ukrainian people for freedom and democracy."
Along with professional military education experts, representatives of the NCO corps from Canada, US, Lithuania and the Czech Republic visited the academy to analyse the Ukrainian training programme and provide suggestions on how to improve the educational process and bring it closer to Alliance standards.
"It is very positive that experts from the West will be involved in the preparation of our sergeants, because it is a completely different approach to the educational process and completely different experience," Ryabykh said. "This is something like vaccination to our armed forces. We need this help, but it will be useful if we don't just copy foreign experience on our ground, but if it will be comprehended and transformed into our reality."
The Chief of the Army Academy Lieutenant General Pavlo Tkachuk said learning from the experience of the world's leading armies, especially NATO members, is crucial in the context of NCO corps training.
"During the last months the Ukrainian Armed Forces have turned into the one of the most combat capable and experienced armies in the world," Tkachuk told reporters at the academy. "But there is still a lot of work on formation of the national army, because before our military get invaluable experience on the battlefield, in particular during anti-terrorist operations in the east, they must acquire fundamental knowledge during the grounding and get appropriate military education."
Military experts said the Ukrainian Army is in need of professional sergeants.
"We were negligent in this issue," Ihor Koziy, a military expert at the Institute of Euro-Atlantic Co-operation, told SETimes. "NCO corps will give clearly positive result, only if the army leadership will take care of it, if sergeants will have a good salary and the opportunity for professional growth."
Pacek said it could take three to five years to completely change the sergeants' education system so that it complies with NATO standards.
"After some time you will meet with the military, which passed this training and they will tell you, what they got from it, what they learned," Pacek said. "The main thing is your desire and concrete goals, and we certainly love Ukraine with all [of our] heart. We are ready to help this beautiful country."
On average, the sergeant training takes three to six months. The faster the NATO recommendations work, the faster the Ukrainian Army will benefit from a new generation of sergeants, military experts said.
In addition, Ukraine has a unique opportunity to recruit the best staff for the training programme by including young soldiers who fought in the east. Military commanders can choose the best among those soldiers, assembling a group of future sergeants who already have significant military skills and combat experience, experts said.
"Powerful NCO corps will influence automatically to army's combat capability," Koziy said. "In fact, for us it is not a new system. By the end of the World War II, we had a lot of sergeants. These were the people who passed the war, and they were appointed to the most important positions. It was believed that these were very experienced people. But later everything has changed."
But now, thanks to NATO, Ukraine has a chance to rebuild the effectiveness of NCO corps, he said.
"This training programme is a good trend," Ryabykh said. "It has a psychological aspect as well: We are not alone. This is a signal that Europe is aware that threat of war is real, not only for us but for the whole region."
http://ukraine.setimes.com/en_GB/articles/uwi/features/2014/12/19/feature-02
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What should be noted here--is the attempt to conduct an accurate opinion poll-- and not a contrived piece of Kremlin inspired propaganda.
More than half of the residents released Donbass not recognize the legality of the self-proclaimed "DNR"
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/bilshe-polovini-zhiteliv-zvilnenogo-donbasu-ne-viznayut-zakonnist-samoprogoloshenoyi-dnr-400696.html
Donetsk residents responded to a question about the legitimacy of power "NPT".
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/bilshe-polovini-zhiteliv-zvilnenogo-donbasu-ne-viznayut-zakonnist-samoprogoloshenoyi-dnr-400696.html
Donetsk residents responded to a question about the legitimacy of power "NPT". ZN.UA Respondents were asked "Do you agree that" DNR "- a legitimate authority in Donetsk?"
Almost 82% of respondents in Ukraine in general do not recognize the legitimacy "NPT" . And in the Donbass most of its inhabitants (55%) also did not recognize the "DNR" legitimate authority.
These are the results of a study commissioned ZN.UA Kyiv International Institute of Sociology. Respondents were asked "Do you agree that" DNR "- a legitimate authority in Donetsk?"
Quite predictably, given the area and population "DNR" and "FSC" (together they occupy under a little less than 3% of Ukraine and account for about 9% of the population), it was found that the majority of citizens, and that 68.2% completely disagree with the legality "of the NPT." If you add on here yet, and 13.7% "rather disagree" that 81.9% do not recognize the Ukrainian "NPT". Read more: The "DNR" growing "guerrilla psychosis": the militants fired tinted by car 38.1% of residents of Donetsk region still did not recognize the legitimacy of "DNR" (of which 29.5% - not recognized).
Also, the poll found that among people living in Donetsk region, remained 33.4% of those difficult to answer the question.
As for the Donbass region as a whole, the overall degree of "legality" (6.1% - completely agree, 9.5% - more consonants) reduced Lugansk, as the survey took place only Ukrainian region and found 86.5% of opponents' DNR ". We can assume, of course, that the FSC to treat it. Record numbers rejection as "DNR" in the West (88.7%) and Central Ukraine (75.7%).
Note that the study "The opinions and views of the population of Ukraine: December 2014" was conducted in order ZN.UA Kyiv International Institute of Sociology, 4-19 December 2014. The study was conducted 3035 interviews with older residents of Ukraine who live in 179 settlements Ukraine.
In Lugansk and Donetsk survey was conducted only on the territory controlled by the Ukrainian authorities. The statistical error does not exceed 1.8%.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/bilshe-polovini-zhiteliv-zvilnenogo-donbasu-ne-viznayut-zakonnist-samoprogoloshenoyi-dnr-400696.html
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#Putin replaces mercs in #Ukraine w #Russia Army.Units fr East district now in #Donetsk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KW-xkFmW0Rs
VIDEO #Putin replaces mercs in #Ukraine w #Russia Army.Units fr East district now in #Donetsk http://www.youtube.com/watch?
http://twitter.com/raging545/status/551110792964493312
v=KW-xkFmW0Rs …
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSYzYTVNUOw&feature=youtu.be
RETWEETS
Christian PezzettiRoberto Blizzardjeremiah jacquesBongo FuryThorsten MüllerCoalitionForDefenseHurleeAdin of Crimeamyroslawa brulak
12:20 pm - 2 Jan 2015
conflict info @sheriffenforcer 4h4 hours ago
@raging545 RU PEACE KEEPERS ? ? ?
Mantelzorger @jdj1980 4h4 hours ago
@raging545 those forces are they the same as those who did winterexercises last year?
raging.me @raging545 4h4 hours ago
@sheriffenforcer Yes #Russia troops now dressing as "Militia" in #Ukraine
raging.me @raging545 4h4 hours ago
@jdj1980 last year? These are troops from #Russia Eastern Districts that now have replaced the "Volunteers" (paid mercenaries) in #Ukraine
Mantelzorger @jdj1980 4h4 hours ago
@raging545 yes, that was a big winter exercise then espacially for whats happening now
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSYzYTVNUOw&feature=youtu.be
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSYzYTVNUOw&feature=youtu.be
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http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/intercepted-phone-conversation-suggests-russia-will-supply-weapons-vehicles-to-rebels-376833.html
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Good article on a Russian conscript who eventually joined the terrorists -
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/11/magazine/a-russian-soldier-vanishes-in-ukraine.html?_r=1
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Good article on a Russian conscript who eventually joined the terrorists -
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/11/magazine/a-russian-soldier-vanishes-in-ukraine.html?_r=1
Excellent - and so sad at the same time.
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Russian base exposed; military expert analysis shows military base used for Kremlin’s intervention
A massive Russian army base used as a command center for the Kremlin's military intervention in Ukraine has reportedly been uncovered.
A prominent online military analyst discovered the hub following the latest update of Google satellite data which revealed images of the area previously unavailable to the public.
http://www.kyivpost.com/multimedia/video-2/ukraine-today-russian-base-exposed-military-expert-analysis-shows-military-base-used-for-kremlins-intervention-video-377101.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCTOsK_Sk-E
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Frontline journalist: Russian attack to take place in two weeks
Olena Bilozerska is a journalist that is currently participating in military action as part of the Right Sector volunteers corps
Here are some facts:
1. Poroshenko has announced a wide-ranging mobilization, which the Verkhovna Rada has ratified, and it will definitely happen. In the small village where my parents live, for example, 36 people have received notification.
2. Putin’s soldiers, whom we refer to here as “separatists”, have become extremely active within the past few days. Their artillery now stands at 150 units per kilometer. For the first time in the entire war, an artillery bombardment now sounds like an automatic weapon.
3. Poroshenko has promised to demobilize the first wave of Ukrainian soldiers this spring.
Here are my conclusions:
1. Ukraine is obviously in no position to feed an army of the magnitute that it has intentions of training. And those soldiers who already have been mobilized would be going hungry and barefoot even now if it weren’t for the help of volunteers;
Therefore, by springtime or earlier, there are plans to commit the Ukrainian army to an all-out attack;
2. Putin will be unable to withstand such a comprehensive advance with his current conglomerate of thugs, deserters, and Ukrainian traitors, Russian anti-social misfits, Caucasus mercenaries and others, complemented by various Russian regular army professionals. They will try to defeat the Ukrainian army and Ukrainian volunteer army, but any chance at success will only come from the deployment of significant numbers of regular forces of the RF, discarding completely the charade and pretension of being “Novorossia militiamen.”
3. In other words, Putler will also be preparing to go on the attack. He will not be able to wait for spring: first, by springtime, the Russian economy will deteriorate even more than it already has; second, he will face a much larger adversary in the springtime than he currently does.
4. Such an attack will take place within two or three weeks, the amount of time he still requires for preparation.
http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/01/21/frontline-journalist-russian-attack-to-take-place-in-two-weeks/
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Very interesting post, Jay. If I read that correctly the Ukrainians want to do an all-out pre-emptive attack on the "separatists", however if so, why would they announce or post about it in any way? Loose lips sink tall ships and all. I guess whoever this person is just wants to get credit for a story without regard to potential loss of life.
Of course it will be interesting to see if Putler responds like he did the last time he was losing, and if the Ukrainians can do a better job of documenting RF soldiers coming over the border as well as the firing of rockets and artillary from the Russian side to the Ukrainian side.
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'Fascists' Join Russian Insurgency: Militant leader Gubarev says 'real fascists' help fighters
An insurgent leader in eastern Ukraine says that fascists are fighting alongside his forces
Pavel Gubarev, the self-proclaimed governor of the so-called Donetsk People's Republic, posted on Facebook that one month ago, "real Italian fascists" had come to eastern Ukraine to fight against Americans. Gubarev has ties to Russian nationalist groups and doesn't conceal his neo-nazi beliefs.
Russian-backed forces in eastern Ukraine have long said they oppose fascism as part of the Kremlin's smear campaign against Ukraine's pro-Western government. But in fact the Russian insurgency has been a magnet for far-right Russian nationalists and members of neo-Nazi groups. Among the foreign militants are a group of far-right French fighters. Most have ties to neo-Nazi groups and believe they are fighting for a movement called Eurasianism.
It's a neo-Fascist idealogy that calls for the destruction of the European Union and resistence to globalization. They view the conflict in eastern Ukraine as a fight against the EU and the US and a struggle for ultra-nationalist causes throughout the continent.
http://uatoday.tv/geo/fascists-join-russian-insurgency-militant-leader-gubarev-says-real-fascists-help-fighters-368118.html
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Whew, finally some fascists in Ukraine! What a relief.
I was challenged by a Russian journalist two days ago when, fed up at a meeting, I commented that there were more Nazi's in Moscow that the whole of Ukraine. She went ballistic and demanded that I name them.
Now I will have apologize to her. :D
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NATO begins to train Ukrainian NCO corps
By Alex Statko for Southeast European Times in Kyiv | 2014-12-19
A co-operative training programme will boost the number of highly qualified sergeants in the Ukrainian Army.
Ukraine's military is taking advantage of a unique opportunity to raise professionalism by seeking NATO's assistance to improve its military education programmes.
Military commanders and analysts said enrolling Ukrainian soldiers in courses where they will learn to become sergeants according to NATO standards will bring "great results" for the further success of Ukrainian Army.
"Sergeant is the basis of any army in the world, because he commands the soldiers directly," Valeriy Ryabykh of Defence Express Media and Consulting, told to SETimes. "Today, character of the war has changed very much. If earlier military commanders prepared extensive frontline operations, very large-scale, in the modern conditions we are talking about manoeuvrable-type operations, both in defence and in attack. The role of tactical link increases and who is to supervise the tactical level? Yes, these people are sergeants. Therefore, they play a key role in the army now."
A Non-commissioned Officer (NCO) training programme that complies with NATO standards will begin in the army academy named after Hetman Petro Sahaydachnyi, located in Lviv. Later, the programme will be implemented in other Ukrainian cities.
A NATO military delegation visited the Sahaydachnyi Academy on December 17th. Alliance experts and experienced trainers attended the training process of Ukrainian sergeants to check their preparedness and learn about current education methods.
"We are ready for constructive dialogue and the full support of the Ukrainian Armed Forces," Boguslaw Pacek, a retired Polish major general who is NATO's adviser for military education reform in Ukraine, told reporters during the visit to the academy. "I would like to say that the whole world supports progressive desire of the Ukrainian people for freedom and democracy."
Along with professional military education experts, representatives of the NCO corps from Canada, US, Lithuania and the Czech Republic visited the academy to analyse the Ukrainian training programme and provide suggestions on how to improve the educational process and bring it closer to Alliance standards.
"It is very positive that experts from the West will be involved in the preparation of our sergeants, because it is a completely different approach to the educational process and completely different experience," Ryabykh said. "This is something like vaccination to our armed forces. We need this help, but it will be useful if we don't just copy foreign experience on our ground, but if it will be comprehended and transformed into our reality."
The Chief of the Army Academy Lieutenant General Pavlo Tkachuk said learning from the experience of the world's leading armies, especially NATO members, is crucial in the context of NCO corps training.
"During the last months the Ukrainian Armed Forces have turned into the one of the most combat capable and experienced armies in the world," Tkachuk told reporters at the academy. "But there is still a lot of work on formation of the national army, because before our military get invaluable experience on the battlefield, in particular during anti-terrorist operations in the east, they must acquire fundamental knowledge during the grounding and get appropriate military education."
Military experts said the Ukrainian Army is in need of professional sergeants.
"We were negligent in this issue," Ihor Koziy, a military expert at the Institute of Euro-Atlantic Co-operation, told SETimes. "NCO corps will give clearly positive result, only if the army leadership will take care of it, if sergeants will have a good salary and the opportunity for professional growth."
Pacek said it could take three to five years to completely change the sergeants' education system so that it complies with NATO standards.
"After some time you will meet with the military, which passed this training and they will tell you, what they got from it, what they learned," Pacek said. "The main thing is your desire and concrete goals, and we certainly love Ukraine with all [of our] heart. We are ready to help this beautiful country."
On average, the sergeant training takes three to six months. The faster the NATO recommendations work, the faster the Ukrainian Army will benefit from a new generation of sergeants, military experts said.
In addition, Ukraine has a unique opportunity to recruit the best staff for the training programme by including young soldiers who fought in the east. Military commanders can choose the best among those soldiers, assembling a group of future sergeants who already have significant military skills and combat experience, experts said.
"Powerful NCO corps will influence automatically to army's combat capability," Koziy said. "In fact, for us it is not a new system. By the end of the World War II, we had a lot of sergeants. These were the people who passed the war, and they were appointed to the most important positions. It was believed that these were very experienced people. But later everything has changed."
But now, thanks to NATO, Ukraine has a chance to rebuild the effectiveness of NCO corps, he said.
"This training programme is a good trend," Ryabykh said. "It has a psychological aspect as well: We are not alone. This is a signal that Europe is aware that threat of war is real, not only for us but for the whole region."
http://ukraine.setimes.com/en_GB/articles/uwi/features/2014/12/19/feature-02
I know we are getting there but it is taking forever
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I know we are getting there but it is taking forever
I am very worried now that too little too late is going to be the case.
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I am very worried now that too little too late is going to be the case.
What made you change your tone? Previously you were claiming that Ukrainians supported by the West could re-take Crimea.
Have you finally realized that there is little chance of NATO intervening?
Believe me it doesn't make me happy to think about this. I do hope that recent weapon allocations from Poland and Lithuania will help.
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Billy B was right.
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BBC reveals the secret training camp of terrorists from the Donbass in St. Petersburg
Russian service of BBC" revealed a secret training base in St. Petersburg, where the basic military training fighters, which are then sent to fight in eastern Ukraine.
The film was released on YouTube last night, January 27.
Base, owned by "Russian imperial movement" supposedly located in the basement of an apartment building on the outskirts of St. Petersburg. The exact address is not called, but in the community "RID" in "VKontakte" has the address to which it is recommended to apply to "help Russian New Russia" - St. Petersburg, ul. Drhttp://reviewnews.net/video-1/3060-bbc-pokazala-sekretnuyu-trenirovochnuyu-bazu-boevikov-donbassa-v-peterburge-videoesden, d.20 (military sports club "Reserve", m. Specific), the newspaper notes Elephant.
Boethius
Hero Member
*****
Re: The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis
« Reply #572 on: Today at 06:13:34 PM »
Quote
BBC expose on "rebel" training camp in St. Petersburg.
http://reviewnews.net/video-1/3060-bbc-pokazala-sekretnuyu-trenirovochnuyu-bazu-boevikov-donbassa-v-peterburge-video
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Good article in the FT about Russia's changing strategy -
(W)estern intelligence analysts are coming to the conclusion that Mr Putin is no longer trying to carve out a semi-autonomous region within Ukraine or gain geopolitical bargaining chips but — having made the calculation that Kiev is lost to Moscow’s influence for good — he is trying to create a new, economically viable puppet state outside of it.
“Taking Crimea was a retaliation for the ousting of Yanukovich. But that took 2m pro-Russian votes out of Ukraine so Mr Putin’s next strategy was to carve out influence in enclaves in eastern Ukraine in order to blackmail Kiev and wield some kind of federal constitutional veto. That has failed too,” says Jonathan Eyal, international director and a Russia expert at the Royal United Services Institute in London.
“So now we are moving to him establishing a more permanent situation: a Mickey Mouse Russian-controlled state. It’s the Abkhazia situation and the Transnistria situation. And like those it is something that could stay like that for 20 years.”
“[It] is certainly the indication,” concurs one senior figure in the Nato intelligence community, speaking on condition of strict anonymity. “Not a separate enclave any more. Not a constitutional settlement. Something totally separate from Kiev and with more direct control.”
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/db589e94-a602-11e4-9bd3-00144feab7de.html?siteedition=uk#axzz3QAFN0pXs (http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/db589e94-a602-11e4-9bd3-00144feab7de.html?siteedition=uk#axzz3QAFN0pXs)
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“So now we are moving to him establishing a more permanent situation: a Mickey Mouse Russian-controlled state. It’s the Abkhazia situation and the Transnistria situation. And like those it is something that could stay like that for 20 years.”
That seemingly would be acceptable provided Ukraine does not relinquish its claim for the territory to be returned. Let Russia foot the bill for rebuilding the war damage and modernizing the antiquated industry. Such will take at least 20 years. In that time Ukraine can use its limited capital to develop Western Ukraine's economy to that of Poland's and other former Soviet satellites. Eastern and western Ukraine can eventually be reunited as done in Germany.
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Just as Russia has done in Transnistria? :o
And, what about the regions that are being attacked now, regions which have little desire to leave Ukraine?
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Just as Russia has done in Transnistria? :o
And, what about the regions that are being attacked now, regions which have little desire to leave Ukraine.
I agree that Ukraine should put up a fuss and never withdraw militarily - do its best to maintain a stalemate. Hopefully the West will do its part to help Ukraine establish a defensible position to prevent further advances. What else can Ukraine and the West do while Putin is in power?
The worse case - it would eventually become another North and South Korea where reunification is impossible. Meanwhile, Crimea will become the equivalent of Turkish Cyprus.
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The problem is, the rebels want new territories. They can't make much of a go with what they have.
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BBC expose on "rebel" training camp in St. Petersburg.
http://reviewnews.net/video-1/3060-bbc-pokazala-sekretnuyu-trenirovochnuyu-bazu-boevikov-donbassa-v-peterburge-video (http://reviewnews.net/video-1/3060-bbc-pokazala-sekretnuyu-trenirovochnuyu-bazu-boevikov-donbassa-v-peterburge-video)
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Good article in the FT about Russia's changing strategy -
(W)estern intelligence analysts are coming to the conclusion that Mr Putin is no longer trying to carve out a semi-autonomous region within Ukraine or gain geopolitical bargaining chips but — having made the calculation that Kiev is lost to Moscow’s influence for good — he is trying to create a new, economically viable puppet state outside of it.
“Taking Crimea was a retaliation for the ousting of Yanukovich. But that took 2m pro-Russian votes out of Ukraine so Mr Putin’s next strategy was to carve out influence in enclaves in eastern Ukraine in order to blackmail Kiev and wield some kind of federal constitutional veto. That has failed too,” says Jonathan Eyal, international director and a Russia expert at the Royal United Services Institute in London.
“So now we are moving to him establishing a more permanent situation: a Mickey Mouse Russian-controlled state. It’s the Abkhazia situation and the Transnistria situation. And like those it is something that could stay like that for 20 years.”
“[It] is certainly the indication,” concurs one senior figure in the Nato intelligence community, speaking on condition of strict anonymity. “Not a separate enclave any more. Not a constitutional settlement. Something totally separate from Kiev and with more direct control.”
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/db589e94-a602-11e4-9bd3-00144feab7de.html?siteedition=uk#axzz3QAFN0pXs (http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/db589e94-a602-11e4-9bd3-00144feab7de.html?siteedition=uk#axzz3QAFN0pXs)
It is definitely a possibility-- and continue with destabilisation over all Ukraine-- and terrorist bombings.
Apart from potential short term aims-Putin is intent on making Ukraine pay as big a price as possible for independence and escape of Russian domination- so the stakes are high for Russia.
It is also another major reason why I would concede nothing to Russia at any stage.If Ukraine can survive the immediate future of military attacks then time will be in Ukraines favour.
Sanctions( & hopefully increased sanctions) will impact savagely in another year- The sanctions are only in early days and only superficial results at this stage-when they really impact in Russia then they will be vunerable.
Militarily-Ukraine will get stronger,better organised & better trained and prepared --plus upgraded defensive weapons will see much greater pressure put on the Russians. The death toll and cost to Russia will not remain a secret in Russia for long-that will put pressure on Putin & the Kremlin lies.
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I read somewhere today that mobile crematoriums (3) have been brought into the separatist regions so that Russia does not have to ship bodies home for examination. Now, lucky Russian families will simply get a notification that their son/husband has died in
battle a training exercise and that due to circumstances it was impossible to recover the body.
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I read somewhere today that mobile crematoriums (3) have been brought into the separatist regions so that Russia does not have to ship bodies home for examination. Now, lucky Russian families will simply get a notification that their son/husband has died in battle a training exercise and that due to circumstances it was impossible to recover the body.
Russia is the new Twilight Zone. What a nightmare for the families of these soldiers. Horrible.
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Unless Putin is able to completely cut off the internet and all external sources of news, I expect sooner or later the public is going to wake up to his constant lies and propaganda.
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Unless Putin is able to completely cut off the internet and all external sources of news, I expect sooner or later the public is going to wake up to his constant lies and propaganda.
Well they are but Belvis says the lady named Elena something is a liar and the Russian government labels her some sort of foreign agent. So it's dangerous for people to wake up one by one. They better all wake up together so there's enough of them to take back their country.
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I read somewhere today that mobile crematoriums (3) have been brought into the separatist regions so that Russia does not have to ship bodies home for examination. Now, lucky Russian families will simply get a notification that their son/husband has died in battle a training exercise and that due to circumstances it was impossible to recover the body.
It is in marked contrast to Ukrainians who are taking DNA (at least) from all bodies found where possible--to try and identify and confirm when possible.
It is just another example of how Ukraine is doing it's best to behave with decent values--while the Russians are inhumanely pretending it never happened!
btw--I posted link to story previously
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It is definitely a possibility-- and continue with destabilisation over all Ukraine-- and terrorist bombings.
Apart from potential short term aims-Putin is intent on making Ukraine pay as big a price as possible for independence and escape of Russian domination- so the stakes are high for Russia.
It is also another major reason why I would concede nothing to Russia at any stage.If Ukraine can survive the immediate future of military attacks then time will be in Ukraines favour.
Sanctions( & hopefully increased sanctions) will impact savagely in another year- The sanctions are only in early days and only superficial results at this stage-when they really impact in Russia then they will be vunerable.
Militarily-Ukraine will get stronger,better organised & better trained and prepared --plus upgraded defensive weapons will see much greater pressure put on the Russians. The death toll and cost to Russia will not remain a secret in Russia for long-that will put pressure on Putin & the Kremlin lies.
Putin eyes benefits as rebels gain in Ukraine
Fighting has surged in eastern Ukraine
* Putin blames Kiev but could see gains
* West threatens Russia with new economic pressure
By Timothy Heritage
MOSCOW, Jan 28 (Reuters) - Boxed into a corner by a financial crisis and the West's refusal to drop sanctions over the conflict in Ukraine, Russian President Vladimir Putin has come out fighting.
After a relative lull in the conflict in east Ukraine since a ceasefire deal was reached last September, separatists have launched a new offensive. Kiev says the rebels are supported by 9,000 Russian soldiers.
Moscow has denied sending in troops and weapons, blamed the renewed violence on Kiev and regretted the deaths of civilians, but done nothing to distance itself from the rebel cause.
Whether or not the separatists are acting on Moscow's orders, battlefield setbacks for Ukrainian government forces may be seen by Putin as offering hope of negotiating from a position of strength over the conflict.
The former KGB officer may think he has no choice - showing any sign of weakness could be politically disastrous for him in Russia.
"Putin has nowhere to retreat to. For Putin, a retreat or a step back would mean a drop in his ratings and a rise in public discontent," said Olesya Yakhno, an independent political commentator in Kiev.
"The main thing for Putin is that discontent does not grow among his supporters. His supporters demand new territorial gains and any step back would be seen by them as a defeat."
Far from being cowed by Russia's economic crisis, aggravated by the sanctions and a fall in the oil price, Putin has been as defiant as ever against the West as it became clear it had no plans to ease the economic pressure.
Allies say such a stance will help Putin remain popular despite predictions that public discontent will grow as prices rise during the financial crisis.
"When a Russian feels foreign pressure, he will never give up his leader," First Deputy Prime Minister Igor Shuvalov told the World Economic Forum in the Swiss resort of Davos last week, promising Russians would "eat less food, use less electricity".
Officials sent similar signals of defiance by dismissing a decision by S&P ratings agency to cut Russia's sovereign debt rating to "junk" status, with Putin's spokesman describing such moves as "politically motivated".
http://in.reuters.com/article/2015/01/28/ukraine-crisis-putin-idINL6N0V62DT20150128
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I read somewhere today that mobile crematoriums (3) have been brought into the separatist regions so that Russia does not have to ship bodies home for examination. Now, lucky Russian families will simply get a notification that their son/husband has died in battle a training exercise and that due to circumstances it was impossible to recover the body.
It is in marked contrast to Ukrainians who are taking DNA (at least) from all bodies found where possible--to try and identify and confirm when possible.
It is just another example of how Ukraine is doing it's best to behave with decent values--while the Russians are inhumanely pretending it never happened!
btw--I posted link to story previously
Below is a story(please read the whole link story-it contains much of interest--
From the battlefront: A Ukrainian tank commander’s act of mercy
By Lucian Kim January 29, 2015
Like thousands of other combatants, Chaban took his smartphone with him. While Ukrainian government ministers and volunteer commanders often seem to spend more time writing Facebook posts than doing their jobs, social media have also allowed rank-and-file soldiers to stay in touch with friends and families. Geo-tagged social-media posts by Russian soldiers over the summer put a lie to Kremlin denials of military involvement in Ukraine. In wars past, soldiers spent downtime writing letters home. Today they hope they get a strong enough signal to post on Facebook.
Chaban is no different, and his Facebook page, written in Russian, is full of snapshots from the field and commentary on equipment. (It turns out a Belarusian night-vision scope is better than an American one.) On Tuesday, Chaban reflected on how soldiers get used to danger and described how his comrades blew up a rebel truck filled with ammunition. “This is war. After it’s over, it will affect people for a long time,” he wrote.
A day earlier, Chaban recounted a skirmish near the village of Sanzharivka, north of the surrounded Ukrainian outpost of Debaltseve, where he found a wounded Ukrainian soldier who had been run over by an enemy tank. “I don’t know how to communicate these feelings,” he wrote. “I’m even afraid to communicate these feelings and what I’ve seen to the civilian world. The scene I encountered screamed with horror.”
russian_commander
Alexey Chaban found this image on a phone that a Russian tank commander left in his vehicle after it was hit. It’s unknown where it was taken, but Chaban believes the man pictured is the tank’s former commander. REUTERS/Courtesy of Alexey Chaban
Chaban wrote his famous letter on Saturday night. In it, he addresses the mother of a Russian officer who survived a hit to his tank, together with his gunner and driver, on Jan. 22. “When they got out of their disabled vehicle, we just had to push a button in our tank and all that would have been left of them would have been a memory of our sinful world,” Chaban wrote. “We didn’t kill them. We let them go.”
Chaban goes on to explain to the mother that Ukrainians face a host of problems — corruption, crime, poverty, unemployment — and chased former President Viktor Yanukovych from office in February to have a better life. Chaban assures her that Ukrainians aren’t fascists who eat babies or rape disabled pensioners, but ordinary, peace-loving people who love their country and children. “Tell your son that making a living by depriving other people of their lives is NOT good. May he return home and find other work,” Chaban wrote. “May he live peacefully and not take sins on his soul.”
Chaban appealed to Facebook users to pass the letter on to the mother of the officer, who had left his mobile phone, with a Russian SIM card, in his tank. Chaban posted a picture from the phone, showing a worn, middle-aged man sitting atop a tank in fatigues and a black Russian tanker helmet. Chaban also included three phone numbers and a street address, presumably of the officer’s mother, that he’d found on the forgotten phone.
Reporters in the central Russian city of Voronezh confirmed that the three phone numbers were local: two were out of service, and the woman who answered the third, a certain Marina, said she had seen Chaban’s Facebook post but didn’t recognize the man in the photo. When reporters went to the address in the post, they met a pensioner named Tatyana Golubyatnikova who denied knowing the man or having any relatives fighting in Ukraine. The Russian journalists speculated that the Chaban post could be a mistake — or even a fabrication.
I also tried calling the three numbers and duplicated my colleagues’ results. “I have no idea how my number appeared on the Internet,” Marina said. “All the people I know live here. I’ve never seen that man.” Since the weekend, Marina said she had received phone calls from Ukraine, Moldova, and even Germany and Spain. “Of course, Russians aren’t fighting in Ukraine,” she said. “I can’t even imagine how two brotherly nations could fight each other.” Marina declined to give her last name, saying she didn’t need the unwanted publicity.
When I reached Chaban, I mentioned the doubts cast on his story by the Voronezh journalists. Chaban said that it was possible the owners of the phone numbers had been warned by the Russian authorities. He said there were other numbers on the officer’s phone that he hadn’t posted on Facebook.
I was curious why Chaban hadn’t taken the Russian tank crew prisoner. He and his men were in the middle of a firefight, confined to their tank, Chaban explained. “We could have shot them or let them go. We couldn’t have taken them prisoner. It wasn’t realistic.” Life-and-death decisions had to be made in a matter of seconds. Chaban told me he’s religious, though his faith isn’t the reason why he spared his enemies’ lives.
“I can’t say that at that moment I was thinking about God,” he said. “But you can’t kill unarmed people.” Chaban allowed that he might have reacted differently if he had lost a comrade in his five months in the war zone. “I don’t regret it. Why should we have killed them? I don’t think those three will fight anymore.”
http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2015/01/29/from-the-front-a-ukrainian-tank-commanders-act-of-mercy/
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I read somewhere today that mobile crematoriums (3) have been brought into the separatist regions so that Russia does not have to ship bodies home for examination. Now, lucky Russian families will simply get a notification that their son/husband has died in battle a training exercise and that due to circumstances it was impossible to recover the body.
It is a sin to cremate bodies in the Orthodox tradition, unless by some extra-ordinary cause such as dying in a fire. I imagine that the Russians will have to invent some fiery tales to placate those mothers and fathers.
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I read somewhere today that mobile crematoriums (3) have been brought into the separatist regions so that Russia does not have to ship bodies home for examination. Now, lucky Russian families will simply get a notification that their son/husband has died in battle a training exercise and that due to circumstances it was impossible to recover the body.
It is a sin to cremate bodies in the Orthodox tradition, unless by some extra-ordinary cause such as dying in a fire. I imagine that the Russians will have to invent some fiery tales to placate those mothers and fathers.
Unfortunately (not to unnecessarily alarm anyone), in light of the recent reports of Ukrainians being executed, my first thought upon reading Jone's post was they're not there to cremate Russian casualties but to remove evidence.
Brass
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Interesting point, Brass.
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I correct my post from yesterday. I saw the blog from Channel 5 that AK Mike referred to. According to this station, there are 7 mobile crematoriums (crematoria?) that are now in use in Eastern Ukraine. I would think that anything or anyone that the Russians do not want to acknowledge will go into those trucks and not come out.
I would like to see additional confirmation on this before we wax poetic about how bad this is. If true, it is self explanatory and demonstrates the worst intent of the Russian government.
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If 7 are good enough for now then 15-20 should be better in the future. :rolleyes:
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Still more coming all the time-- yet we still read the ridiculous Kremlin BS that in denying Russian invasion dot dot dot dot.........
Soldiers of revealing the truth about the war against Putin Ukraine (World News)
American Journal publishes history of Russian soldiers who fought in Ukraine, and highlights a family of Russian soldiers killed in the Donbas. American and British editions continue to insist that Ukraine should equip at least to protect because open military aggression of Russia against Ukraine
The soldiers say they do not know that they were going to fight in Ukraine. "If I knew that I was going to war, I would have resigned in Kostroma. I have two small children at home, "- said one of the troopers. The publication notes that the military did not sign additional documents, although their current contracts do not provide for participation in hostilities abroad.
http://www.radiosvoboda.org/content/article/26820288.html
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Here's something that caught my eye under the heading-Why? What's the point unless her concerns were accurate or she inadvertently stumbled on to the truth...
Russian Mom Faces Treason Charges for Call to Ukrainian Embassy
..."A Smolensk woman faces charges of high treason after she phoned Ukrainian diplomats to warn them that Russian troops may be en route to their country, newspaper Kommersant reported Thursday"...
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russian-mom-faces-treason-charges-for-call-to-ukrainian-embassy/515104.html
Now, a charge of Criminal Mischief I could understand but High Treason?
That's a charge reserved for crimes against the state. The only way this charge could be contemplated is if she in fact did let the cat out of the bag. In other words there was truth to her claim that Russian troops were enroute to Ukraine.
The Russian government may themselves have let the cat out of the bag by lending credence to Davydova's phone call raising the alarm to the Ukrainian authorities by actually charging her with a crime.
It'd be interesting to learn what the charges brought forward will be. If they're under Sec 275-High Treason or Sec 283-Disclosure of a state secret.
http://www.russian-criminal-code.com/PartII/SectionX/Chapter29.html
Brass
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More --
Newsweek Europe Exclusive: Russian Soldiers Reveal the Truth Behind Putin's Secret War
Lyudmila Malinina’s voice trembled as she described the secret funeral she witnessed on a recent night in her small town of Sudislavsky in the Kostroma region of central Russia. At about 8pm, a truck parked at the cemetery a few yards away from her wooden house. The truck’s headlights stayed on to illuminate the ground for several men to hurriedly dig the grave, “as if they were thieves hiding something”, Luydmila says.
More neighbours popped out of their windows and doors to watch and discuss the strange scene, wondering why anybody would bury a relative at this hour. Besides, that part of the graveyard was reserved for the deceased in war, as somebody pointed out.
http://www.newsweek.com/2014/09/19/russian-soldiers-reveal-truth-behind-putins-secret-war-269227.html#.VMmGSUInQwA.facebook
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there are 7 mobile crematoriums (crematoria?)
Since crematorium is a neuter Latin word, its plural crematoria would be the proper choice, as for moratorium/moratoria.
However, since Latin is not overly cultivated in the USA, its "adaptation" to an English plural form (i.e. crematoriums) is not surprising ;) - see for instance how the plural of alga (algae) often becomes algi :D.
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Since crematorium is a neuter Latin word, its plural crematoria would be the proper choice, as for moratorium/moratoria.
However, since Latin is not overly cultivated in the USA, its "adaptation" to an English plural form (i.e. crematoriums) is not surprising ;) - see for instance how the plural of alga (algae) often becomes algi :D.
I'm happy to see that Latin grammar is being discussed on the forums ;D
For those of you who didn't study Latin in school that was a joke on this topic.
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Russia intent on shooting the messengers--!!
Russia jails 73-year-old human rights activist, leader of "Mother Prykum'ya" Lyudmila Bohatenkovu. . Lyudmila Bohatenkoviy was charged under "fraud" charges defendants in the case four years ago, led by human rights activist. Bohatenkova was arrested and taken to the city police.
Russia put in jail 73-year-old human rights activist who investigated the case of the death of soldiers
Colleagues Bohatenkovoyi regarded as persecution of human rights activist "act of intimidation in connection with its activities." Bohatenkova engaged in protection of servicemen showed evidence of torture in the Russian army. In the past few months investigating the death of Russian troops in the fighting in eastern Ukraine.
In August Bohatenkova referred to the Council under the President of Russia in the development of civil society and human rights about 9 dead and 11 August 2014 in the area of military range in the Rostov region nine Russian soldiers that military service under contract to the 18th mechanized infantry brigade .
http://www.radiosvoboda.org/content/article/26643528.html
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However, since Latin is not overly cultivated in the USA, its "adaptation" to an English plural form (i.e. crematoriums) is not surprising ;) - see for instance how the plural of alga (algae) often becomes algi :D.
Now, that's one that I'VE never seen. :toocool:
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Well they are but Belvis says the lady named Elena something is a liar and the Russian government labels her some sort of foreign agent. So it's dangerous for people to wake up one by one. They better all wake up together so there's enough of them to take back their country.
Hahaha. Maybe I should open a business and export Mirrors to the US. Seems to me they are in great shortage.
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Hahaha. Maybe I should open a business and export Mirrors to the US. Seems to me they are in great shortage.
Only in the White House. ;D
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Only in the White House. ;D
Oh, how so?
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An excellent OP-Ed post in the NYT.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/10/opinion/roger-cohen-western-illusions-over-ukraine.html?_r=2
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The best part (IMO) from your link.
excerpt
"In fact, the Russian annexation of Crimea tore up by forceful means “the territorial integrity” and “political independence” of Ukraine, in direct violation of Article 2 of the United Nations Charter. It also shredded Russia’s formal commitment under the Budapest Memorandum of 1994 to respect Ukraine’s international borders. The “nationalistic violence” that has again raised issues of war and peace in Europe stems not from Kiev but from Moscow, where Putin has cultivated a preposterous fable of encirclement, humiliation and Western depredation to generate hysteria and buttress Russian aggression in eastern Ukraine."
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The media description as to what /who etc is happening in Ukraine has always irked me.The Ukrainian government has it's own reasons in earlier times--but now it needs to be called what it is--an invasion and war against Ukraine.
Even on this forum we still have those in denial about Russia being responsible for this war-time to call it what it is.
Russia's war against Ukraine
In the beginning, we simply had the "Crimea crisis." That's what the Kyiv Post called Russia's military invasion of Ukraine's peninsula in February. By April, the crisis had spread. What was happening in the eastern Donbas, based on our assessment of the facts, led to calling it "Russia's war against Ukraine." There were troops on the ground not seen before, military equipment not seen before and no genuine popular uprising by citizens against Ukraine.
It is to this day. It's the most accurate description of the tragic events unfolding.
I have never believed in adopting the Ukrainian government's description -- an Anti-Terrorist Operation -- for many reasons.
http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/brian-bonner-the-terminology-of-war-380070.html
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I thought we were not going to post whole articles anymore.
What the hell is wrong with you Jay?
Are you dumb or stupid?
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I liked this one....
MUNICH — The most difficult thing for a communist, it has been observed, is to predict the past.
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250 words they say, is max.
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At last some positive news-- questions have been asked why this did not happen earlier--the Russian advance has been concentrated further north.
Now Ukrainians are pushing more lightly defended frontline further back towards Russia.
Azov Battalion spearheads Ukrainian counter-offensive
Ukraine's Azov Battalion, famed for its near-suicidal bravery and ultra-nationalist views, is spearheading a Ukrainian counter-offensive along the country's Black Sea coast today.
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv-post-plus/azov-battalion-spearheads-ukrainian-counter-offensive-380136.html
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http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/249765.html
National Security and Defense Council's press service, that the Ukrainian military freed Pavlopil, Kominternove, Lebedynske, Berdianske and Shyrokine.
"The enemy has sustained very serious combat losses," Turchynov said, adding that the Ukrainian counteroffensive "ensured reliable defense for Mariupol from artillery strikes."
The Azov special task regiment was in the vanguard of the attack, Turchynov said.
Some independent verification is required, but if true, it destroys the idea that Ukraine's military prospects are hopeless and that the Russians are invincible.
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http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/249765.html
Some independent verification is required, but if true, it destroys the idea that Ukraine's military prospects are hopeless and that the Russians are invincible.
This area is lightly defended currently by Russians. As I said earlier--their attention has been further north-in attempt to encircle and trap Ukrainian army.Russians are desperate to show "victories" anywhere.
The move in the south is designed to draw attention from the concentration up north. Over 1500 Russian troops crossed into Ukraine last night and some 300 vehicles-- so it will not remain so easy to push them back.
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They keep taking territory Jay.
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They keep taking territory Jay.
Стратегия и тактика Украины: оборона Дебальцево и наступление под Мариуполем
"Но пока, к счастью всё идёт нормально. Пусть не так быстро как хотелось бы, но в правильном направлении."
http://hvylya.net/analytics/politics/strategiya-i-taktika-ukrainyi-oborona-debaltsevo-i-nastuplenie-pod-mariupolem.html
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Interesting and moving story. For those in denial about Russia in the Donbas-you need to read.
Letters From Donbas, Part 3: 'Dirt, Tears, and Blood'
Viktor Alanov, social worker, Donetsk
I am a Donbas native. I am an ethnic Russian. I speak both Russian and Ukrainian fluently, although I consider Russian my mother tongue.
I was never anti-Ukrainian. I always took Ukraine for granted, a fact I considered neither good nor bad. I saw to which abyss Vladimir Putin was leading Russia all these years and I had long stopped associating myself with this country.
http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-letters-from-donbas-situation-fighting-day-to-day-life/26836295.html
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Jay, I understand your passion but when will you open your eyes? You only write here what you want to acknowledge..... and think everything positive, well its not. Ukraine has lost 200 square miles of land since ceasefire....what in that do you not understand???
Let me let you in a little secret you won't find on internet. The Ukraine army is so short on medical supplies that volunteers are scampering to find them. A friend of mine, which was helping to train in first aid care last summer( which included several americans on vacation :o), was speaking to a friend of her's on phone while we were having dinner. He could not say where he was(tappings) but was in urgent need of compression needles. My friend told me she has found someone in ...California to send her the needed supplies( a few other supplies also). The biggest trouble is to get the supplies to the frontline. I asked her what about the government? Her replay is What government??? anything that happens is because of volunteers!! If I hear anything in Dnipropetrovsk I will write, I only know many of the injured are taken to hospitals there.
Signin off
War correspondent ))
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Agree.
:'(
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Jay, I understand your passion but when will you open your eyes? You only write here what you want to acknowledge..... and think everything positive, well its not. Ukraine has lost 200 square miles of land since ceasefire....what in that do you not understand???
Let me let you in a little secret you won't find on internet. The Ukraine army is so short on medical supplies that volunteers are scampering to find them. A friend of mine, which was helping to train in first aid care last summer( which included several americans on vacation :o), was speaking to a friend of her's on phone while we were having dinner. He could not say where he was(tappings) but was in urgent need of compression needles. My friend told me she has found someone in ...California to send her the needed supplies( a few other supplies also). The biggest trouble is to get the supplies to the frontline. I asked her what about the government? Her replay is What government??? anything that happens is because of volunteers!! If I hear anything in Dnipropetrovsk I will write, I only know many of the injured are taken to hospitals there.
Signin off
War correspondent ))
I didn't quite understand your post. Are you the war correspondent? Can you clear up a little confusion on this?
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I didn't quite understand your post. Are you the war correspondent? Can you clear up a little confusion on this?
War Correspondent? Just some fun from my part....just giving some insight from what I see and hear!!!
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A great video which clearly shows the hoped for end game of the Putin regime.
http://www.rferl.org/content/daily-vertical-ukraine-bosniafied-minsk-talks/26842045.html
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War Correspondent? Just some fun from my part....just giving some insight from what I see and hear!!!
Are you in Ukraine right now? If you are, we would love a trip report and observations on the ground.
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Are you in Ukraine right now? If you are, we would love a trip report and observations on the ground.
I was there a month ago in Kiev for two weeks. Everyone is on edge. Mobilization and conscription notices have gone out. I heard the news broadcast of Donetsk airport falling and the shelling of Mariupol. Ukraine has no one to help her. They are alone. Good enough report for you?
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I was there for 2 month up until a couple of weeks ago. All was calm and easy going. Life as normal until the last week, then I did see some APC's set up at major hwy's coming into Kyiv.
Until that it was the same as the last few years there.
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I was there for 2 month up until a couple of weeks ago. All was calm and easy going. Life as normal until the last week, then I did see some APC's set up at major hwy's coming into Kyiv.
Until that it was the same as the last few years there.
2 years ago, the Grivna was at 8 to 1. When I was there it was 16 to 1. Now it is 23. When I got the plan on the first time, guys with tattoos on their hands sat next to me. Now it is kids traveling with their families. There were men in uniforms - fatigues and people recognized the Cyborg patch. Back then, those in uniforms shook you down for a bribe. The economy in Lviv seems to be doing better than it was 2 years ago. But that's just me . . .
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Quit riding back in the cattle car section! in more than 15 trps I've never had anyone with tats near from what I could see. Tats are uncommon in UA.
Everything inn the central part of UA is doing better than it was when I went there 11 years ago.
It's been a slow growth but fairly steady. The 08 recession slowed the country down but it's climbed out and is better.
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Re: economics
A young man I know graduated law school in 2008. He has never seen a good year in Kiev.
:offtopic:
I do see tattoos. I don't know what the big deal is. I don't have any. Yes, I do judge people who have them but it is not a deal breaker for me.
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Quit riding back in the cattle car section! in more than 15 trps I've never had anyone with tats near from what I could see. Tats are uncommon in UA.
Everything inn the central part of UA is doing better than it was when I went there 11 years ago.
It's been a slow growth but fairly steady. The 08 recession slowed the country down but it's climbed out and is better.
They are very common for the younger crowd, which means as time goes the number will be going UP.
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I'm in Lviv now. All is calm and life is pleasant (if you have no relatives in the war zone).
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Despiite some success early on with their lies the western media has caught on quite well now to the depth of that lying--more and more articles are appearing that show that Putin is caught with his hand in the till .Another up top date and relevant story today.
Why is it so obvious to everyone but a few leaders?
Putin’s bodyguard of lies has overtaken Russia
The Soviet leader was referring to the Russian concept of maskirovka — literally “little masquerade” — the strategy of denial, disinformation and deception that has been central to Russia’s military thinking for more than a century.
Maskirovka is one of the defining features of Vladimir Putin’s Russia: the annexation of Crimea and Moscow’s war-by-proxy in Ukraine are classic examples of Russian military subterfuge, invasions by stealth, deliberately shrouded in deniability and confusion. But maskirovka is more than just a military concept: it has become state policy, a deliberate blurring of truth and illusion that is the key to Putin’s hold on power.
Yesterday Putin announced a ceasefire in Ukraine, while maintaining the fiction that Russia has no military involvement in east Ukraine. The situation remains deeply uncertain, in large part because Putin’s motives and actions remained concealed and opaque, shielded by a bodyguard of lies.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/putins-bodyguard-of-lies-has-overtaken-russia/story-fnb64oi6-1227218341029?nk=a8427af4f5e5115174a58a20ddc24d99
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http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/putins-bodyguard-of-lies-has-overtaken-russia/story-fnb64oi6-1227218341029?nk=a8427af4f5e5115174a58a20ddc24d99
JayH, that's a subscriber-only link.
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250 words they say, is max.
That includes the required comment on the article from the post. This helps prevent posting articles that the poster hasn't even read
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JayH, that's a subscriber-only link.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/putins-bodyguard-of-lies-has-overtaken-russia/story-fnb64oi6-1227218341029
I tried again-- same result--try via this link--
http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/the-times-putins-bodyguard-of-lies-has-overtaken-russia-380507.html
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Despite Putin's frequent denials and misleading statement from Russia-- here is evidence of meeting with Russian General--err-- for those that missed it--he is Russian military!! NB--meeting was in Ukraine!!
Quoting--
OSCE SMMU - Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine
2 hrs · Edited ·
STATEMENT BY ALEXANDER HUG, THE DEPUTY CHIEF MONITOR OF THE OSCE SPECIAL MONITORING MISSION TO UKRAINE in Kramatorsk
Five months ago all sides agreed on the needs for a ceasefire and to refrain from attacking moves. On 12 February the same sides agreed to implement a comprehensive ceasefire from midnight on 15 February - not a partial, temporary, or half-hearted ceasefire, but a comprehensive one. Violation of the letter or spirit of these agreements directly jeopardizes achievement of the other measures agreed in Minsk. Any attempts to create so-called 'new facts on the ground' and, in particular, any attacking moves, fly in the face of these same agreements.
The sides have agreed that OSCE should monitor and verify the ceasefire and the OSCE has agreed to do so. The SMM will continue to do so objectively and impartially, with a view to supporting the soonest possible implementation of the ceasefire.
This evening I have met with Ukrainian and Russian generals Rozmaznin and Lentsov with Viaznikov and the temporary HQ in Soledar. I very much hope that they, as the heads of the JCCC, will jointly control and coordinate cessation of fire as soon as possible. Ukraine and Russia are among the 57 pS that sent the SMM here to monitor the situation, and I am determined that the SMM should fulfill the mandate given to the mission.
Tomorrow I intend to visit Debaltseve. There have been numerous reports and allegations regarding the situation in and around the town. The SMM is instructed, willing and able to objectively monitor the situation there - as long as it is safe to do so. The sides have already committed to cease fire. I am hopeful that the JCCC will help ensure that the ceasefire is indeed fully respected by all units and armed formations, including in the area of Debaltseve."
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When America fails to leas, good people bleed.
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The article appeared in Russia-- the significance is contained in the last sentence I quote below.With the propaganda doing to softening up job on the Russian people for over a year now-it will be no shock to them to find they are engaged in a war.As long as they think they are the winning side--Putin will be allowed to push his agenda.
If the full might of Russian military resources are used-- Ukraine is simply not equipped to handle them.
Russian media admits that regular Russian troops took Debaltseve
Russian media dropped the pretense of tractor-driving local separatists with the recent report published by Ilya Barabanov in Russia’s newspaper “Kommersant.” It confirms longstanding reports by Ukrainian soldiers that they were fighting Russian regular troops, and not local militants, in Debaltseve. Barabanov writes: “20-year-old Misha was born in Yekaterinburg, 21-year-old Alex – in Mozdok, Artem is 22 years old, he is from the Slavyansk-on-Kuban, Dima is 23, he is from Vladikavkaz. Other guys are from Chita, Norilsk, Ulan-Ude. At the first glance, they have nothing in common. And yet, they do: the city of N, military unit *****, separate motorized infantry brigade 'N'.”
It is, however, surprising to see that even Russian publications no longer attempt to keep this information a secret. This might be an indication that Russia’s aggression against Ukraine will become even more brazen in the coming days.
http://www.examiner.com/article/russian-media-admits-that-regular-russian-troops-took-debaltseve
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Why do you think the mask is coming off?
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Why do you think the mask is coming off?
The ongoing feather duster approach of the west has now been tested and confirmed-- so no great reason to maintain pretence. Putin has created the internal climate to support him-so that is no longer an issue for him.
The unfortunate fact is that an unrestrained Russian military will achieve Putins aims.
Ukrainians have shown a huge amount of guts to try and defend themselves-and have overwhelming public support for the cause of Ukrainian sovereignty -but it will not be enough unless they are given real western support with military aid .No longer will a few upgraded weapons be enough-- an overall strategy to remove Russia from Ukrainian sovereign territory needs to be implemented unequivocally.
Putin will react-- the west needs to be ready.
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Well, if he abandons the pretense of hybrid war, the cowards that currently lead the West will have to cut Russia from SWIFT. Then things will really get interesting.
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Georgia: is that beautiful country in the Caucasus mountains. It was the first nation in the world to adopt Christianity, back in the 4th century. Georgian is spoken, as well as Russian and sometimes continental English. The alphabet is a Kartvelian language with what is termed "Georgian script," and to most of us seems to share many similarities to writing in places like Iran and Turkey.
This video was made by Georgian students who share some of their national history, and why they support a free and independent Ukraine. At the end they raise the blue and gold colours of Ukraine. Georgians themselves have seen much pain and heartache over the centuries, yet they are a beautiful and special people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeONbHHZT2c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeONbHHZT2c)
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Georgia: is that beautiful country in the Caucasus mountains. It was the first nation in the world to adopt Christianity, back in the 4th century. Georgian is spoken, as well as Russian and sometimes continental English. The alphabet is a Kartvelian language with what is termed "Georgian script," and to most of us seems to share many similarities to writing in places like Iran and Turkey.
This video was made by Georgian students who share some of their national history, and why they support a free and independent Ukraine. At the end they raise the blue and gold colours of Ukraine. Georgians themselves have seen much pain and heartache over the centuries, yet they are a beautiful and special people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeONbHHZT2c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeONbHHZT2c)
Why is Tbilisi the orbit of the Kremlin?
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More on reality and depth of Russian lies.
Killed in "Unknown Circumstances": Russia's Ghost Army in Ukraine (Part 1)
March 3, 2015 | 6:37 am
The bitter conflict in Ukraine has cost thousands of lives, but the Russian government has continuously denied sending its soldiers to the frontlines, despite accusations to the contrary from NATO and Western officials.
VICE News travels to Russia to investigate the mysterious deaths of dozens — possibly hundreds — of active-duty Russian servicemen who are believed to have been killed in Ukraine. Accounts gathered from soldiers' families, human rights workers, and government officials cast doubt on the Kremlin narrative, revealing the unacknowledged sacrifices borne by Russia's ghost army.
http://news.vice.com/video/killed-in-unknown-circumstances-russias-ghost-army-in-ukraine-part-1
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LT
Why is Tbilisi the orbit of the Kremlin?
I value Georgian independence, but Georgia was subject to domination by Imperials Tsar, and then Soviet Communists. Stalin and Beria were Georgian. Beria was born in present day Abkhazia.
The Kremlin has a hard time allowing others to be independent.
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It's ok to promote nationalism in it's neighbours but NOT 'ok' at home. That is paranoia
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The alphabet is a Kartvelian language with what is termed "Georgian script," and to most of us seems to share many similarities to writing in places like Iran and Turkey.
The Kartvelian languages of the Caucasus - i.e. Kartuli (Georgian), Svan, Laz, Mingrelian - belong to an independent language family, having no relations with the Indo-European, Semitic or Ural-Altaic families.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/%E1%83%A5%E1%83%90%E1%83%A0%E1%83%97%E1%83%A3%E1%83%9A%E1%83%98.png)
Its very elegant rounded Mkhedruli script (the above spells Kartuli) is unique and bears no resemblance with what is used in Iran (Arabic script) or Turkey (Latin script), except by local Kartvelian minorities.
It was preceded by the Asomtavruli and Nuskhuri scripts, which are somewhat similar to the Armenian script and debatably created by Armenian monks, also responsible for the Caucasian Albanian alphabet of the Gargareans, who once lived in parts of present-day Azerbaijan and Daghestan
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LT
I value Georgian independence, but Georgia was subject to domination by Imperials Tsar, and then Soviet Communists. Stalin and Beria were Georgian. Beria was born in present day Abkhazia.
The Kremlin has a hard time allowing others to be independent.
I thought that you would have a more recent explanation. Sakashvili changed the country economically for the better.
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Some updated numbers of estimated Russian forces. They are heavily supported by artillery and tanks etc
The so called withdrawal of Russian hardware & troops is a sham-- they are simply rotating troops thru on a normal schedule-- nothing like withdrawing--AS THEY AGREED TO DO.
In Donbass still drew 12 thousand Russian soldiers
General Hodges argues that there are other evidence of invasion of Russia in Ukraine.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/ato/na-donbasi-dosi-oruduyut-12-tisyach-rosiyskih-viyskovih-general-ssha-413145.html
Russia supports militants in eastern Ukraine about 12 thousand soldiers. As the commander of the US Army in Europe Gen. Ben Hodges, we are talking about the Russian military instructors, maintenance techniques of modern weapons systems and combat troops directly, says Deutsche Welle .
In addition, these figures must be added almost 29000th group that deployed in Crimea. General Hodges argues that there are other evidence of invasion of Russia in Ukraine. For example, numerous cases of electronic methods affect the operation of drones belonging OSCE.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/ato/na-donbasi-dosi-oruduyut-12-tisyach-rosiyskih-viyskovih-general-ssha-413145.html
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Mendy,
I always thought that Armenia was the first nation to adopt Christianity?
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Mendy,
I always thought that Armenia was the first nation to adopt Christianity?
Interesting question. What constitutes a nation 1,800 years ago? A nation existing today? If so, Armenia is certainly one of the oldest if not the oldest whose national church was Christian.
Before Armenia there were self governing, spatially large communities of settled people practicing Christianity. Remnants remain but not as an existing nation.
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Mendy,
I always thought that Armenia was the first nation to adopt Christianity?
Thank you, Jone. You are right.
I've even written about it in the past so you are free to take half my portion of borsch today! :D
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I will. With Gusto.
Have you ever been to the White Rabbit in Moscow? Eating establishment?
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If so, Armenia is certainly one of the oldest if not the oldest whose national church was Christian.
The latter, Christianity was made the state religion of Armenia in 301 AD by the converted Arsacid ruler Tiridates III, even before Constantine issued his Edict of Milan in 313 which simply allowed Christian worship in the Roman Empire.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Armenian_Apostolic_Church_logo.png/200px-Armenian_Apostolic_Church_logo.png)
Armenian Apostolic Church
Little known is a Catholic branch of the Armenian Church, founded in 1700 by the Armenian Benedictine monk Mechitar who had fled Modone in the then Venetian Moorea (Peloponnesus) invaded by the Turks. He and his monks were granted by the Republic of Venice a small island in the Lagoon formerly used as a lazaret, which then became known as San Lazzaro degli Armeni, where they still reside:
(http://www.fiabmestre.it/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/San-Lazzaro-degli-Armeni-01.jpg#ActualImage)
St. Lazarus of the Armenians
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:clapping:
:popcorn:
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I will. With Gusto.
Have you ever been to the White Rabbit in Moscow? Eating establishment?
Their borsch with baked beans is legendary to many, but I have not personally. They have a great culinary reputation and are one of the places where others go to be seen. I might just have to break down and take the Mrs.
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Their borsch with baked beans is legendary to many, but I have not personally. They have a great culinary reputation and are one of the places where others go to be seen. I might just have to break down and take the Mrs.
Ah, Mendy, you hit me in my softspot. That's not fair: Borsch and baked beans. Yumbo. Am trying to get a decent recipe for the homefront. If you know of any, I will be happy to be your tester and try the recipe.
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An article from The Independent, on the tension in Mariupol, which expects a full invasion -
“From interviews with prisoners, we are certain we have been fighting elite Russian divisions: marines, FSB, assault paratroopers,” he said. These elite forces had been fighting alongside mercenaries, who had “mostly” been recruited from the Urals area of Russia, with very minimal local influence.
http://goo.gl/6jvSqZ (http://goo.gl/6jvSqZ)
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An article from The Independent, on the tension in Mariupol, which expects a full invasion -
http://goo.gl/6jvSqZ (http://goo.gl/6jvSqZ)
Tell it to Steamer. He seems to be a pacifist who doesn't want to believe the obvious.
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An article from The Independent, on the tension in Mariupol, which expects a full invasion -
http://goo.gl/6jvSqZ (http://goo.gl/6jvSqZ)
What is obvious? Just because the residents are understandably gun shy doesn't prove an imminent invasion.
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What is obvious? Just because the residents are understandably gun shy doesn't prove an imminent invasion.
I didn't post about anything being "obvious". However, three soldiers in Mariupol died this week, during the so called "ceasefire", and a policeman was shot in the head when he stopped a car and asked for identification from terrorist rebels.
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No but statement s from NATO and the US, based of satellite images say it's very likely.
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Tell it to Steamer. He seems to be a pacifist who doesn't want to believe the obvious.
My apologies Bo, I'm getting posts mixed up.
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My apologies Bo, I'm getting posts mixed up.
If you're getting some very simple posts here mixed up you might not be the best person to offer analysis on whether or not Putin is going to continue his invasion and attempt to take Mariupol.
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If you're getting some very simple posts here mixed up you might not be the best person to offer analysis on whether or not Putin is going to continue his invasion and attempt to take Mariupol.
Bite me
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Bite me
Oh, did I hurt your feelings? Poor baby. :'(
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If you're getting some very simple posts here mixed up you might not be the best person to offer analysis on whether or not Putin is going to continue his invasion and attempt to take Mariupol.
Yeah, agree. But good luck getting him to acknowledge the corn.
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My apologies Bo, I'm getting posts mixed up.
No problem. :)
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A few posters here may want to read this
- http://sirgis.info/2015/03/06/ethnic_cleaning_in_gorlovka/
The DPR has stated that those who support Ukraine or Ukrainians will be removed from their territories, and locals should report neighbours, acquantances, and strangers.
Yup, this is the "fascist free" some posters here support.
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This sounds very similar to the 'cleansing' of Germany in WWII. :-X
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YAn2VK_S_4
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YAn2VK_S_4
Looking at the title of the video, why should they be worried? How many times now has Putin said that there are no Russian soldiers in Ukraine?
Sheesh... :cluebat:
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BBC report on Russian troops in Ukraine
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31794523 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31794523)
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Another article on the strain invading Ukraine put on the Russian army -
the Rusi report says that a total of 42,000 Russian troops from 117 combat and combat-support units have been involved, either being rotated in and out of the front lines in Ukraine or pouring artillery fire from inside Russia.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/11/russia-struggling-ukraine-military-operations-report (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/11/russia-struggling-ukraine-military-operations-report)
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I've been watching the developing tension near Mariupol. If the pro-Russians invade this city, it will be a disaster for Russia and a disaster for the local residents. The world would see it as Russian aggression, even more so than Debaltseve. Mariupol is a large city of almost half a million. An invasion would totally trash the Minsk II agreement, and that would pretty much eliminate any future agreements, creating a climate of complete distrust. If it happens, it would highlight Putin's stupidity/insanity.
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Another article on the strain invading Ukraine put on the Russian army -
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/11/russia-struggling-ukraine-military-operations-report (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/11/russia-struggling-ukraine-military-operations-report)
Western propaganda. There are no Russians in E. Ukraine, that is until there are.
Once the fighting is over and it's secured property of Russia, Putler will wink and grin and admit there were always Russians soldiers there, while he hands out service ribbons. :wallbash:
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For those who still need evidence of Russians in Ukraine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WA1rP5WGfY#t=1220
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For those who still need evidence of Russians in Ukraine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WA1rP5WGfY#t=1220
Mendy, if Putin is dead (long may his bastard live [ahem]), what implications will that have in Russia?
To the Mercantilists, what business sex love romantic martial opportunities may open up?
if the Mercantilists have a position on pubic hair relevant to these opportunities, we would love to hear that as well. . . .
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Although so far there seems to be no credible evidence of his passing, I am always hopeful for positive changes for my beloved Russia.
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It is the absence of evidence that is evidence itself. Ask Mrs. Woodrow Wilson
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Russia is still supplying the terrorists with weapons. We should expect more skirmishes in the spring -
Russia is still pouring heavy weapons into Ukraine, signalling that President Vladimir Putin has no intention of abiding by last month’s ceasefire agreement, NATO’s top military commander warned on Sunday.
U.S. Air Force Gen. Philip Breedlove told an audience at the German Marshall Fund Brussels Forum that Moscow continues to ramp up military and economic support to separatists in Eastern Ukraine. That conclusion was based on evidence gathered by the North Atlantic Treaty Organization’s joint intelligence unit in Britain.
“We continue to see disturbing elements of air defense, command and control, resupply and equipment coming across a completely porous border,” he said.
Under the agreement reached last month in Minsk, Belarus, Russia is obligated to withdraw all troops and equipment from Ukraine and return control of the border to the Kyiv government by the end of this year. The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe is supposed to monitor Russian compliance.
Breedlove said the Russian moves made Western consideration of arming Ukraine more pressing. He didn’t outright endorse sending lethal aid, but according to many reports, he has been making that case inside the Barack Obama administration.
“What we see is diplomatic tools being used, informational tools being used, military tools being used, economic tools being used against Ukraine,” he said. “We in the West should consider using all of our tools in reply. Could it be destabilizing? The answer is yes. Also, inaction could be destabilizing.”
Victoria Nuland, the U.S. assistant secretary of state for European affairs, told the forum on Friday that Obama has not yet made a decision on arming the Kyiv government. Nuland has made no secret of her support for the measure, but has encountered reluctance from senior White House staff members who don’t want to break ranks with European partners or give Russia an excuse to counter-escalate.
“We’ve seen, month on month, more lethal weaponry of a higher caliber … poured into Ukraine by the separatist Russian allies,” Nuland said. “The kinds of equipment that the Ukrainian forces are confronting are much more sophisticated than what they have. I think the number one thing is for Russia to stop sending arms over the border so that we can have real politics.”
The European Union’s high representative for foreign affairs, Federica Mogherini, refused to say whether she thought Russia was adhering to the Minsk pact. She said European leaders won’t make a judgment until July, when the next decision on EU sanctions is due, and that she was working to ease sanctions against Russia.
“We decided more than one year ago that … the only way of putting pressure on Russia was the economic one,” she said. “I wish we could lift the sanctions soon, but it depends on the situation on the ground in Ukraine.”
Konstantin Kosachev, chairman of the Russian parliament’s international affairs committee, denied that any Russian troops are in Ukraine. “We are not sending troops into neighboring country. Mr. Breedlove believes we do. But we do not,” he said, evoking scoffs from the mostly European and American audience.
Breedlove and Nuland are fighting an uphill battle. Obama has said arming Kyiv would be seen as an escalation and would unsettle the situation on the ground. Yet NATO’s evidence shows that Russia is changing the status quo every day. So it’s not arming Kyiv that makes keeping the balance between the two sides impossible, raising the chances of greater violence.
Zbigniew Brzezinski, the former national security advisor to President Jimmy Carter, was highly critical of the West’s approach. “We have signaled a willingness to accommodate,” he said. “I’m not sure that, at this stage, we have succeeded in convincing the Russians that we are prepared to deter the kind of steps they are adopting.”
If Obama doesn’t want to give arms to Ukraine’s military, he will have to find another way to turn up the heat on Putin. Some in Congress, along with State Department and White House officials, are preparing new sanctions measures. Yet while the White House waits for Europe to agree to either option, we get paralysis that plays into Putin’s hands.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2015/03/23/russia-continues-to-pour-arms-into-ukraine-showing-putin-has-no-intention-of-abiding-ceasefire-nato/ (http://news.nationalpost.com/2015/03/23/russia-continues-to-pour-arms-into-ukraine-showing-putin-has-no-intention-of-abiding-ceasefire-nato/)
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Some separatist leaders are saying that a new major offensive by Russia to cut off Ukraine's access to the Black Sea will come before summer.
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Although so far there seems to be no credible evidence of his passing, I am always hopeful for positive changes for my beloved Russia.
Бога побойся, верующий ты наш.
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Любите Бога! И возлюби ближнего твоего,!
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For those who denied Russian troops were in Ukraine -
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11506774/Separatist-fighter-admits-Russian-tanks-troops-decisive-in-eastern-Ukraine-battles.html
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For those who denied Russian troops were in Ukraine -
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11506774/Separatist-fighter-admits-Russian-tanks-troops-decisive-in-eastern-Ukraine-battles.html
Hah, if you accept what this man said in the interview then you have to accept the following: he said the rebels have taken 300 captives from foreign military including americans in Debaltsevo.
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He has no reason to lie about Russian troops. He does have reason to lie about foreign fighters.
I have never denied there may be foreigners fighting among battalions. But I suspect any Americans fighting are diaspora Ukrainians. If the US army were fighting in Ukraine (as Russian propaganda trolls claim), the rebels would have made no gains.
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Hah, if you accept what this man said in the interview then you have to accept the following: he said the rebels have taken 300 captives from foreign military including americans in Debaltsevo.
I cannot find the quote you mentioned about 300 captives from foreign military including Americans. Can you point out your quote? thanks
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For those who denied Russian troops were in Ukraine -
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11506774/Separatist-fighter-admits-Russian-tanks-troops-decisive-in-eastern-Ukraine-battles.html
Bo, you know that unless Putin says Russian troops are there it can't be true.
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He has no reason to lie about Russian troops. He does have reason to lie about foreign fighters.
Very selective approach, don't you find? :)
I cannot find the quote you mentioned about 300 captives from foreign military including Americans. Can you point out your quote? thanks
Can you read the original interview in Russian?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/russian/international/2015/03/150325_donetsk_rebel_interview
Би-би-си: А вы видели сами этих американцев и европейцев здесь? Много их?
Д.С.: Конечно. Когда брали Дебальцево, было взято в плен порядка 300 иностранных военных (проверить эту информацию не удалось - ред.). Американцы, европейцы. Большинство из них снайперы. Инструкторов очень много. У нас инструктора в основном российские военные, а у них, естественно, западные.
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When I translated the original Russian version it is noted that the statistic you mentioned cannot be verified.
BBC: have you seen the Americans and Europeans themselves here? A lot of them?
D.s.: Of Course. When the sample Debaltseve, were taken prisoner some 300 foreign troops (unable to verify this information-ed.). Americans, Europeans. Most of them snipers. Instructors very much. We have mainly Russian military instructor, and they, naturally, Western.
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Haven't you known, Calmissile,
Someone makes an outlandish statement to the press that makes it in print or video (as outlandish and not verified) and then the selective quote, without the un-verified disclaimer is used to offset verified facts from the other side.
It is the new logic. Straight from the FSB talking points.
BELVIS - Show us the passports from fighters from the Western Countries. Or take your ramblings somewhere else. We have shown countless interviews and passports here from Russian soldiers. Your feeble attempt to offset that by trying to state that Americans and Brits were fighting as advisers for Ukraine is nothing but a passing of wind.
Tell us again how the Jetliner was shot down by the Ukrainian Air Force!
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BELVIS - Show us the passports from fighters from the Western Countries. Or take your ramblings somewhere else. We have shown countless interviews and passports here from Russian soldiers.
Hey, ask that guy to show you the passports from fighters from the Western Countries. I prefer to believe the information from OSCE observers there.
As I've entrusted on myself the mission to educate you about Russian realities, the next lesson. Russian soldiers while in active service have military identity cards (военный билет). Only the military identity card (its form and recording there) is a firm proof that a man is in service. I saw military identity cards in Ukrainian media but these were the cards of men in reserve, almost every adult man in Russia have similar documents. For example I'm a senior lieutenant in reserve.
As for passports you saw I'm pretty sure there are thousands of men with Russian passports in Kiev right now. In your logic Kiev is occupied by Russian Army but I hurry to comfort you, that's not the case :)
If you mean under Russian soldiers the guys from Russia who are fighting for Donbass, no need to demostrate their passports, they are shown on Russian TV.
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We bet you are a Senior Lieutenant in reserve. I don't think that there is anyone here who disputes that you have a role in the Russian army or government.
OSCE makes absolutely no representations that US or British soldiers took part in the recent fighting. You are smoking hashish if you think so.
But I do believe that the US will send over advisers in the future to assist in the training of Ukrainian soldiers. It will be on TV and you will be able to watch it. Just remember, the lies of your government prompted my government's response.
I know many Russian people. They are not as stupid as you make them out to be. They all know, as we do, who was sent in to Ukraine.
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OSCE makes absolutely no representations that US or British soldiers took part in the recent fighting. You are smoking hashish if you think so.
You'll lose in the dispute because you don't hear others. Your weak point. Could you please read my last posts to see what I think.
You forget to add, OSCE makes absolutely no representations that Russian Army took part in the recent fighting. I'm glad you're starting to read the quality sources. Or still rely on Vasil'eva? :D
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I think someone doesn't understand the concept of "statements against interest".
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You forget to add, OSCE makes absolutely no representations that Russian Army took part in the recent fighting. I'm glad you're starting to read the quality sources. Or still rely on Vasil'eva? :D
Reports from the Observer Mission at the Russian Checkpoints Gukovo and Donetsk
http://www.osce.org/om/122243
OSCE has reported Russian military involvement for months. Try again lieutenant Belvis
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I read the Russian BBC interview, Belvis, and not all those foreigners are American.
I also asked my husband to read it. His response was, "The guy is an idiot, and obviously, has never been to the army." So, in a way, he agrees with you. :)
I don't believe Belvis is a Russian troll, he is giving us another perspective, and one we should listen to with respect. I will way, however, Belvis, that the Russian narrative that Americans are in Ukraine, aiding the military, is borne of a complete lack of understanding of American society. Were this accurate:
1. It could not be hidden. It would be uncovered by US media.
2. The Ukrainian military would be much more efficient if American military, or even mercenaries, were fighting for them. Those guys have a lot of recent on the ground battle training. Debaltsve would not have been the debacle it was if Americans were involved. I used to believe American military advisors were advising Ukrainians, but based no more.
3. If the American military were involved, the rebels would have lost long ago. There is no reason for America to hide its involvement, if that were to occur. I think the Americans are playing second fiddle in all of this and allowing the Europeans to take the lead role, since this is predominantly a European, not an American, issue.
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Reports from the Observer Mission at the Russian Checkpoints Gukovo and Donetsk
http://www.osce.org/om/122243
OSCE has reported Russian military involvement for months. Try again lieutenant Belvis
Good link which confirms your naive lie :)
Sorry, LT, but OSCE reported in last months:
Military movement
At the two BCPs the OM did not observe military movement, apart from the usual vehicles of the Russian Federation Border Guard Service.
Could you give direct link and quote where OSCE said about military involvement of Russian army in Ukraine?
I read the Russian BBC interview, Belvis, and not all those foreigners are American.
Don't repeat what I've already said :) Or I distorted somehow the interview? :rolleyes:
I also asked my husband to read it. His response was, "The guy is an idiot, and obviously, has never been to the army." So, in a way, he agrees with you. :)
I knew your husband is a clever man. But we have here at the forum guys who are not so clever so have to help them with propaganda antidote. 8)
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Belvis, when Putin resumes his push toward the Black Sea, you should visit the conflict zone and see with your own eyes, regular Russian troops. I promise that you will, one hundred percent guaranteed.
What is sad among many otherwise intelligent Russians, is the foggy notion that yesterdays middle age coal miners are somehow operating sophisticated weaponry that requires extensive training and is exclusive to the Russian military. Are these folk brainwashed?
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What is sad among many otherwise intelligent Russians, is the foggy notion that yesterdays middle age coal miners are somehow operating sophisticated weaponry that requires extensive training and is exclusive to the Russian military. Are these folk brainwashed?
Mendy, do you remember the Gerry and Sylvia Anderson puppet shows from the 1960s - Fireball XL5, Stingray, Thunderbirds, Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons, etc? The one that comes to mind here is Joe 90 - the kid who could put on special glasses and become the world expert in whatever crisis was happening at the time. (See the full story at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_90)
It's obvious that these wonderful Russian scientists have now perfected the glasses to include BUK manuals, and have mass-produced them for the Donetsk miners to wear! :ROFL:
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Mendy, do you remember the Gerry and Sylvia Anderson puppet shows from the 1960s - Fireball XL5, Stingray, Thunderbirds, Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons, etc? The one that comes to mind here is Joe 90 - the kid who could put on special glasses and become the world expert in whatever crisis was happening at the time. (See the full story at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_90)
It's obvious that these wonderful Russian scientists have now perfected the glasses to include BUK manuals, and have mass-produced them for the Donetsk miners to wear! :ROFL:
That is brilliant!
I know a fellow in Brumley (formerly in Estonia), who must own a pair of these Joe 90's!
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Are these folk brainwashed?
Brain dead is more apt description. The problem for Russians is they may well finish up dead out of all this-thanks to that brain dead approach of excusing Putin and his Kremlin cronies.
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That is brilliant!
I know a fellow in Brumley (formerly in Estonia), who must own a pair of these Joe 90's!
Talking of brain dead morons --has there ever been a bigger know it all -know nothing anywhere?
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Belvis, you are no better than a Muslim. Muslims will lie for Allah. You lie for Russia. You deny over 50% of the Novorossiyans are Russian military. You still lie despite the evidence. So what?
Do you think when you see Saint Peter that Russian Orthodox Jesus will absolve you from your sins?
"He had good reasons for what he did. He was lying for Russia."
Here is a news flash for you Lieutenant. You're not a patriot. A patriot doesn't deny state funerals for soldiers killed in action. A patriot doesn't defend his country when a regime of theives intimidate and kill it's critics or engage in atrocities abroad. A patriot opposes those things and fights for justice for all.
I mean really nothing you say matters. You are not in Moscow and in Moscow whoever has control of Putin decides policy and you can't tell us who is control.
You better repent now son. You might be on vacation to Ukraine pretty soon. Your work here isn't very valuable.
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Belvis, you are no better than a Muslim. Muslims will lie for Allah. You lie for Russia. You deny over 50% of the Novorossiyans are Russian military. You still lie despite the evidence. So what?
The day has already come for many around the world where you could substitute the word Americans, in terms of who will lie for their cause at all costs....
Fathertime!
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Belvis, when Putin resumes his push toward the Black Sea, you should visit the conflict zone and see with your own eyes, regular Russian troops. I promise that you will, one hundred percent guaranteed.
What is sad among many otherwise intelligent Russians, is the foggy notion that yesterdays middle age coal miners are somehow operating sophisticated weaponry that requires extensive training and is exclusive to the Russian military. Are these folk brainwashed?
Yes. When I studied history during my university days I found it perplexing how popular Hitler was among the German people. Germany was a modern, civilized country, yet it supported a leader who plunged the world into a horrible war. Until this last year I did not have an appreciation for the affects of constant propaganda. I understood the ideas, for example, telling a lie and repeating it over and over until your people believe it. But it has been revealing to see just how effective this is. People exposed to this propaganda and hypernationalism accept it as the truth, no matter what evidence contradicts it.
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Belvis, you are no better than a Muslim.
LT, I asked you to find the quote from OCSE about Russian military involvement, and you have generated in answer the flow of of consciousness :-\
OK, I'll take it as you've found nothing.
Belvis, when Putin resumes his push toward the Black Sea, you should visit the conflict zone and see with your own eyes, regular Russian troops. I promise that you will, one hundred percent guaranteed.
I agree with you that if Putin starts the push toward the Black Sea, your critics of him become defensible. Right now you employ your perceprion about him to create fantastic projection by extrapolation of your perceprions.
Are these folk brainwashed?
No, these folk want to operate with facts and firm evidences, and not with loose perceprions and emotional accusations not supported by proof.
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No, these folk want to operate with facts and firm evidences, and not with loose perceprions and emotional accusations not supported by proof.
What is real evidence to you?
For example, if I post something from western media your response is that WE are brainwashed by all the western propaganda.
So, what real evidence are you willing to accept?
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So, what real evidence are you willing to accept?
For example, OSCE reports. The most reliable source at the present time. Тestimony of respectable men, who are not connected with ukrainian media and who can see the places there with own eyes, for example Ruban, Montyan (persons from Ukrainian side). Even Jen Psaki would be OK if she supports her words with documentary or intellegеnce evidence :)
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For example, OSCE reports. The most reliable source at the present time. Тestimony of respectable men, who are not connected with ukrainian media and who can see the places there with own eyes, for example Ruban, Montyan (persons from Ukrainian side). Even Jen Psaki would be OK if she supports her words with documentary or intellegеnce evidence :)
Okey dokey
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LT, I asked you to find the quote from OCSE about Russian military involvement, . . . OK, I'll take it as you've found nothing.
You are correct. I made a mistake earlier. When I said OSCE, it was instead Russia's major trading partner the European Union that said that said the Russian military invaded Ukraine. Do you deny Russian troops have invaded Ukraine? On second thought, don't bother answering. Your answer is not important anyway.
By the way, how is your Chinese coming along?
I will be looking for you here: http://lostivan.com/en
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Ukrainian POW shot in war crime by Russian citizen fighting with the terrorists.
At least one Russian posting here (no, not Belvis) believes he deserved it, as "he is a soldier", so his life doesn't matter.
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv-post-plus/murder-of-ukrainian-prisoner-by-russian-backed-separatists-investigated-videos-385322.html (http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv-post-plus/murder-of-ukrainian-prisoner-by-russian-backed-separatists-investigated-videos-385322.html)
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Belvis, this is in response to Russian allegations of Americans fighting with Ukraine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5hIynVcKRo
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According to your logic, these men should bend over for Putin. It is not worth it, right?
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My logic is based on facts. Russia is not going to give up Crimea. So, bring a case for reparations for the loss of state assets, and for the loss of gas, and make it economically a drain to maintain that land. Ukraine and her supporters should ensure Crimea gets no legally recognized status in the international community. That is hardly "bending over".
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And how is what you "propose" any different than Minsk 1 or Minsk 2? And how are those working out by the way?
You have to resist by any means possible. RESIST. Resisting is not quitting.
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Another Russian young man decided to join Ukraine's forces:
http://dailysignal.com/2015/04/05/why-a-russian-decided-to-fight-for-ukraine/
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Funeral and investigation into the torture and murder of Ukrainian hero Branovytsky:
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv-post-plus/murder-of-ukrainian-prisoner-by-russian-backed-separatists-investigated-videos-385322.html
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Wesley Clark has stated a new Russian offensive is imminent -
http://www.businessinsider.in/Former-NATO-commander-A-new-Russian-offensive-in-eastern-Ukraine-is-imminent/articleshow/46841408.cms (http://www.businessinsider.in/Former-NATO-commander-A-new-Russian-offensive-in-eastern-Ukraine-is-imminent/articleshow/46841408.cms)
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Wesley Clark has stated a new Russian offensive is imminent -
http://www.businessinsider.in/Former-NATO-commander-A-new-Russian-offensive-in-eastern-Ukraine-is-imminent/articleshow/46841408.cms (http://www.businessinsider.in/Former-NATO-commander-A-new-Russian-offensive-in-eastern-Ukraine-is-imminent/articleshow/46841408.cms)
I hope he is wrong.
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A Russian based strategist also says the same thing, but believes the invasion will be later in the year -
Vladimir Putin’s goal in Ukraine remains regime change in Kyiv, something he
had hoped his intervention in Crimea and Donbas would force the Ukrainians to do on their own. But that hasn’t happened, and now, the Kremlin leader is likely to launch a broader attack against Ukraine in the near future, according to Pavel Felgengauer.
Putin has an even more compelling reason to move forward, the Russian military analyst says (http://nv.ua/opinion/felgengauer/zachem-moskve-na-samom-dele-letnyaya-eskalaciya-v-donbasse--43072.html). If he doesn’t, he could face “very serious problems” at home. And “as a result, this could lead to regime change” not in Kyiv but in Moscow itself.
Consequently, while a move toward “a stable frozen conflict” in the Donbas is “theoretically possible,” Felgengauer argues, it is “improbable” because for “political, strategic, tactical and economic reasons,” that would leave Ukraine in a state that is “absolutely unacceptable for Russia.”
“Therefore,” he says, “military pressure will continue,” and “Moscow will continue to attack as soon as it completes all the necessary preparations.” At the present time, “an intensive preparation for a summer campaign is going on,” one that will involve first militias it can disown but then may involve Russian units as well.
Thus, Felgengauer says, “the probability of a summer campaign is very high.”
While an unstable truce continues in the Donbas, “the propaganda campaign against the Ukrainian regime and the West is only intensifying” in Russia itself, the military analyst says. Shifting the direction of that campaign, which hasn’t happened, could “lead to the activation of a protest movement” in Russia as the country enters a new electoral cycle.
Indeed, Felgengauer suggests, Putin would face “very serious problems if he were to decide on a freezing of the conflict in the Donbas. As a result, this could lead to regime change in Moscow.” Consequently, he will try to inflict “tactical defeats” on the Ukrainian army in the hope that will lead to political change in Kyiv and the federalization or disintegration of Ukraine.
“In any case, according to the Kremlin’s scenario,” the Russian military analyst says, “Ukraine must not get the chance to develop independently or even more to build a democracy. This is something Moscow does not need at all, and that is exactly the outcome to which a frozen conflict could lead.”
Meanwhile, various Ukrainian writers are pointing (http://rusjev.net/2015/04/09/sluhi-o-nastuplenii-prorossiyskih-boevikov-na-pashu-vesma-obosnovanyi/) to the Russian order of battle already present in eastern Ukraine or adjoining Russian regions as an indication that Putin may move even sooner than that, possibly as early as this coming weekend.
And Polish President Bronisław Komorowski told (http://news.liga.net/news/politics/5489908-agressiyu_rf_v_ukraine_ne_vidyat_tolko_slepye_komorovskiy.htm) the Verkhovna Rada that “it is impossible not to see” that Russia has put military equipment and troops into Ukraine as part of an invasion. “Only the blind do not see this,” he said.
Komorowski said that “in the east, Ukraine is defending not only its own territorial integrity but also all of Europe from a return of the imperial past. The world will be secure only when Ukraine will be secure.” And consequently, “Europe must provide Ukraine with political economic and security support.”
http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/04/09/russian-military-analyst-new-russian-attack-on-ukraine-likely-as-a-frozen-conflict-threatens-putins-goals-and-interests/ (http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/04/09/russian-military-analyst-new-russian-attack-on-ukraine-likely-as-a-frozen-conflict-threatens-putins-goals-and-interests/)
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Will the Spring Offensive be Blitzkrieg or more Hybrid War?
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For example, OSCE reports. The most reliable source at the present time. Тestimony of respectable men, who are not connected with ukrainian media and who can see the places there with own eyes, for example Ruban, Montyan (persons from Ukrainian side). Even Jen Psaki would be OK if she supports her words with documentary or intellegеnce evidence
Okey dokey
Hey Beavis, I just found out a bit of interesting trivia. The OCSE does NOT cover many checkpoints in the conflict area. As a matter of fact, the coverage is severely lacking and, get this, this is hilarious, the are staff are Russian officials that are bound by a code of conduct not to reveal any information they find to the terrorists separatists. You know, menial stuff like armament, ground troops, etc. Nothing major, of course.
But not to worry. I'll keep my eyes peeled for some good information from the OSCE.
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Everday more information comes to light--it keeps making fools of the pro-Rus excuse makers here on the forums and highlights the depth of Putins lying.
# Zakharchenko admitted that capture # Donbass 'and prepared for 2 months before fleeing Yanukovych
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mzaHg4SQJpw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mzaHg4SQJpw
The "Subject" visiting Heads of DNR Alexander Zakharchenko 09/04/2015
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I twas browsing about the internet this evening and found a couple rather prominent people (pro-Russian/Pro-Yanukovych were killed in Ukraine recently. (Kalashnikov/Buzyna) A former Deputy in Parliament and a journalist)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3040777/Former-ally-deposed-Ukrainian-president-shot-dead.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490 (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3040777/Former-ally-deposed-Ukrainian-president-shot-dead.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490)
http://news.yahoo.com/pro-russia-ukrainian-journalist-shot-dead-kiev-142206935.html;_ylt=AwrSbDpYjDBV6zoAd09XNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTExbGtvMmJiBGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDVUlDMV8xBHNlYwNzYw-- (http://news.yahoo.com/pro-russia-ukrainian-journalist-shot-dead-kiev-142206935.html;_ylt=AwrSbDpYjDBV6zoAd09XNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTExbGtvMmJiBGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDVUlDMV8xBHNlYwNzYw--)
There is not very much media coverage of the event...and no coverage on this website. No discussion about launching an investigation...these lives/viewpoints apparently are not worth anything much.
Fathertime!
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There have been quite a few assassinations, mysterious deaths, and suicides in the last six months. It has nothing to do with pro Russian views, and everything to do with money.
BTW, all of these incidents are well covered in Ukraine's press.
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Chances are it relates to covering the Russian connection to murders prior to and during Maidan.
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No, I don't believe that, although that is what the Ukrainian government is selling. There is a war to divide spoils.
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Here's an interesting article from our friend Dmitry Gorenburg. Maybe some folks may understand FT's fears.
And no, I'm not defending baldie here. ;)
When asked whether he thought the timing of the drills was intended to coincide with the anniversary of the annexation, Gorenburg responded, “I very much doubt it’s a coincidence. It was a symbolic act, I think.”
But he was less sure about the timing of the release of Putin’s comments about nuclear preparedness in the Crimea context. “I’m not sure why it was said now, because the overall message that I think Russia’s trying to send is to try to deter,” he said. Relevant to this point is that the Rossiya-1 interview was pre-recorded. It is unclear when the interview itself took place.
And in fact, deterrence seems to be at the top of everyone’s agenda. “[The West is] trying to deter [Russia] from expanding the conflict in Ukraine. [Russia’s] trying to deter [the West] from interfering. And I think that every time Russia mentions nuclear weapons… that’s sort of the final trump card in preventing any serious attack on Russian forces,” Gorenburg said. “And they want to highlight that in order to make Western publics and therefore decision makers more reluctant to take on Russian forces.”
http://russiamil.wordpress.com/2015/04/13/interview-on-last-months-russian-military-exercises/
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And how is what you "propose" any different than Minsk 1 or Minsk 2? And how are those working out by the way?
You have to resist by any means possible. RESIST. Resisting is not quitting.
The primary reason the Germans lost WWII was because of meddling by Hitler in his General's decisions and his insistence on unworthy campaigns. Stalingrad was one such idiotic campaign that all worthy General's were against, but Hitler foolishly insisted on it because of his gigantic ego and desire to deprive Stalin of his namesake city. No military value at all; just a gigantic boondoggle. Kiev was similar. He split his Armies into 3 instead of listening to his Generals and going for the premier target which was Moscow.
Now upon facing overwhelming defeats on both fronts the Germans made an art form out of fighting retreats and extracted heavy tolls on their enemies before eventually being defeated by combined actions of all major World powers against them. However until that ultimate defeat the Germans were regarded as some sort of Houdini's who always escaped to fight another day.
Re-taking Crimea now or even soon is out of the question. Holding Mariupol is of utmost importance and urgency although I fear it's too late.
Whatever happens over there though is the decision of those Ukrainians on the ground and you ought to be respectful of that instead of repeated foolish warmongering.
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Putin commented on Buzina's murder within 22 minutes of it occurring.
http://www.rferl.org/content/kyiv-alleges-journalists-slaying-not-only-ordered-timed-to-the-minute/26963867.html (http://www.rferl.org/content/kyiv-alleges-journalists-slaying-not-only-ordered-timed-to-the-minute/26963867.html)
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Putin commented on Buzina's murder within 22 minutes of it occurring.
http://www.rferl.org/content/kyiv-alleges-journalists-slaying-not-only-ordered-timed-to-the-minute/26963867.html (http://www.rferl.org/content/kyiv-alleges-journalists-slaying-not-only-ordered-timed-to-the-minute/26963867.html)
Chances are it relates to covering the Russian connection to murders prior to and during Maidan.
Maybe because he had advance notice ! :)
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Putin commented on Buzina's murder within 22 minutes of it occurring.
http://www.rferl.org/content/kyiv-alleges-journalists-slaying-not-only-ordered-timed-to-the-minute/26963867.html (http://www.rferl.org/content/kyiv-alleges-journalists-slaying-not-only-ordered-timed-to-the-minute/26963867.html)
A lot of baseless accusations. C'mon Bo, proof, proof and more proof.
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The time of Buzina's death is proven, because there were eyewitnesses. The time it was announced publicly in Kyiv is proven. The time Putin spoke of Buzina's death (some 20 minutes after is occured, and even less after it was announced in Kyiv) is also proven, because Putin's comments were broadcast live.
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The time of Buzina's death is proven, because there were eyewitnesses. The time it was announced publicly in Kyiv is proven. The time Putin spoke of Buzina's death (some 20 minutes after is occured, and even less after it was announced in Kyiv) is also proven, because Putin's comments were broadcast live.
So 20 mins. is too short of a time for Putin to know about it? How does this prove that Putin ordered a hit on him?
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I never stated Putin ordered a hit on Buzina.
Buzina was not a national figure of prominence, in Ukraine or Russia. So yes, it is rather surprising that his death would be referred to as a political murder by the Russian president less than half an hour after it occurred.
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I never stated Putin ordered a hit on Buzina.
Buzina was not a national figure of prominence, in Ukraine or Russia. So yes, it is rather surprising that his death would be referred to as a political murder by the Russian president less than half an hour after it occurred.
The article infers that it was a hit. The proof they say is that Putin knew so quickly.
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I am just posting a point of view.
However, it was a hit. Mr. Buzina would not be dead, otherwise.
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So yes, it is rather surprising that his death would be referred to as a political murder by the Russian president less than half an hour after it occurred.
I'd like to specify the time. Buzina was shot at 13.20. Putin said about at 14.18 answering to the question of a jornalist who announced the murder.
Not the first politically motivated murder in Ukraine in these days so Putin was prepared for an answer. Freedom of speech in Ukraine has some peculiarities.
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How would Russian authorities know of his death less than an hour after it occurred? Buzina is not Poroshenko. He had no followers in Ukraine.
His death was reported in Ukraine at 1:55. It was confirmed by Herashchenko at 2:05, and commented on by Putin, in the midst of a call in show, at 2:17.
I don't think Buzina's death is political, despite what Putin states. I don't think the other deaths of politicians recently (including "suicides") are political, I believe they are about money. Nevertheless, no one, including those in Ukraine, have stated Putin has no right to comment on the death. Just that the speed with which he did so is rather odd.
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These will only make sense to posters who have lived in Russia or Ukraine, and know something of Soviet culture. These songs are satires of songs composed by
terrorists separatists. I am posting it particularly for Belvis, Ranetka, and Doll. Enjoy!
http://youtu.be/3LoAegt-29M (http://youtu.be/3LoAegt-29M)
http://youtu.be/l3HyDhF-2RA
And one mocking Lyube, reportedly Putin's favourite band, and its frontman, a Russian lawmaker and Putin loyalist-
http://youtu.be/Ji9Fj79FYXE
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A must read article on the recent assassinations in Ukraine
http://ukrainianweek.com/Politics/134959
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A must read article on the recent assassinations in Ukraine
http://ukrainianweek.com/Politics/134959
You needed to direct attention to the quote below.
Conclusion that most realists are going to reach - like Nemstov assasination-who benefits? the grubby hands of the Kremlin are all over this.Once again highlighting Russian contempt for truth .
QUOTE FROM ARTICLE
"Judging by the information campaign currently built up in Russia around Buzyna’s death, Russia is trying to use this murder as an inverted image of the killing of the opposition leader Boris Nemtsov in Moscow. A cynical and bold execution of a journalist in the center of the Ukrainian capital should subdue the Western criticism of the Kremlin. Now Putin can always refer his critics to Kyiv, shrugging shoulders and saying that in Ukraine things are even worse.
The Kremlin's task is to deprive Ukraine of the support of the West, at any cost. The headline-making murder in the Ukrainian capital is the best thing to do to discredit the country. The more the West is tired of Ukraine, the more it sees corruption and crime, the more negative impressions of Kyiv the Western society gets, the more it is likely that Ukraine will become an easy prey for the Kremlin, left to Putin to devour.
"It is impossible to establish order in Ukraine. It is an area of endless problems. Leave this headache to us and mind your own business" – these are the signals sent by Moscow to Brussels and Washington. And this idea is starting to gain momentum in the European society.
We cannot say for sure who exactly pulled the trigger. However, the beneficiary is obvious. And it is definitely not the Ukrainian authorities"
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You needed to direct attention to the quote below.
Conclusion that most realists are going to reach - like Nemstov assasination-who benefits? the grubby hands of the Kremlin are all over this.Once again highlighting Russian contempt for truth .
We cannot say for sure who exactly pulled the trigger. However, the beneficiary is obvious. And it is definitely not the Ukrainian authorities"
You are woefully inconsistent....when earlier 'landmark events' took place and Ukraine or opposition to Russia was the obvious beneficiary you also always blamed the Russians....It is clear that whatever event occurs you will blame the Russians...facts or no facts.
Fathertime!
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Great article on Russia's link to the far right in the EU, as well as Russia's far right. I am posting the whole article, with permission. It demonstrates where the real Nazis are.
A new leak of the text messages originating from a hacked smartphone of a high-ranking officer of Russia’s Presidential Administration sheds further light on the relations between the Russian authorities and their far-right allies in France.
The hackers from the Anonymous International have disclosed (http://b0ltai.org/2015/03/31/%D1%81%D0%BC%D1%81-%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0-%D0%B8%D0%B7-%D1%83%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F-%D0%B2%D0%BD%D1%83%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD/) thousands of text messages sent to and by Timur Prokopenko, deputy chief of the Domestic Politics Department of the Russian Federation’s Presidential Administration. Before he started working in the Presidential Administration, Prokopenko headed the youth wing of the ruling United Russia party, the Young Guard, that was established in 2005, next to the Nashi movement and Aleksandr Dugin’s Eurasian Youth Union, to defend Russia from the largely virtual threat of a “color revolution”.
Prokopenko rose up to become a powerful figure in the Presidential Administration. The hacked messages reveal the internal developments in the Domestic Politics Department, how it communicates with and tries to control the already intimidated mass media, organizes and finances pro-Putin rallies and movements in Russia. The messages dating back to March 2014 also mention Marine Le Pen, the leader of the French far right National Front, and contribute to better understanding of the relations between Russia and Le Pen’s party.With regard to Le Pen, Prokopenko corresponded with Konstantin Rykov, a Russian politician and influential media producer. A self-proclaimed Russian patriot, who massively promoted #RussianSpring as a reference to the Russian annexation of Crimea and pro-Russian separatism in Eastern Ukraine, Rykov owns a €2 million villa in Côte d’Azur and is a tax resident of France, according to the investigation (http://navalny.com/p/3763/) of Russian opposition leader Alexey Navalny. It is Rykov’s French connection that apparently determines his acquaintance with Le Pen.
According to the leaked messages, on March 10, 2014, a week before the “referendum” in Russia-occupied Crimea, Prokopenko asked whether Rykov could bring Marine Le Pen as a “referendum” observer to Crimea, adding that her prospective participation would be important and that he informed his boss, Oleg Morozov, that Rykov was in contact with her. Rykov promised to find out.
Rykov replied the next day saying that Le Pen was on tour campaigning for her party’s municipal elections, so she was unlikely to go, but one of her deputies could go in her stead. Prokopenko seemed happy about this development and said that someone from Russia’s Foreign Ministry would call Le Pen. Then Rykov added that the Danes supported “them” (Russia) too, but it was difficult for Rykov to communicate with them as he did not know the Danish language.
These communications correspond well to the developments in March 2014. Le Pen did not indeed go to Crimea, but her contemporary adviser on international relations, Aymeric Chauprade, went to observe the “referendum”. The French newspaper Libération informed (http://www.liberation.fr/politiques/2014/03/13/le-fn-dement-envoyer-des-observateurs-en-crimee_986838), with a reference to Chauprade’s entourage, that he had been invited to monitor (http://anton-shekhovtsov.blogspot.com/2014/03/pro-russian-extremists-observe.html) the “referendum” by the Eurasian Observatory for Democracy and Elections (EODE), a Belgium-based NGO run by Belgian extreme right activist Luc Michel. Together with the pro-Kremlin, Poland-based European Centre for Geopolitical Analysis, the EODE was responsible for inviting international monitors to observe the “referendum” in Crimea. However, the National Front denied (http://euobserver.com/eu-elections/123556) that the EODE had invited Chauprade, as the party feared that the publicized relationship with the Belgian right-wing extremists could damage the reputation of the National Front, especially on the eve of the municipal elections.
By “the Danes” who supported the Russian idea of the Crimea “referendum”, Rykov might have meant the far right Danish People’s Party. The day after the “referendum”, the party’s foreign affairs spokesman Søren Espersen declared (http://www.dr.dk/Nyheder/Politik/2014/03/17/085106.htm) that they should respect “the will of the people of Crimea” who “wanted to become part of Russia”.
The same day that Espersen declared his party’s support for the Russian practical annexation of Crimea, Rykov happily informed Prokopenko that Le Pen “had officially recognized the results of the referendum in Crimea!”. “She has not let us down (http://www.interpretermag.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif) ”, replied Prokopenko. “We need to somehow demonstrate our respect for the French. This is important”, Rykov suggested. “Yes, super!”.
Later developments provided a clue what that “respect” for the National Front could be.
Already by the time of the communications between Prokopenko and Rykov, Le Pen had travelled at least twice to Moscow. During her visit in June 2013, Le Pen met with Sergey Naryshkin, speaker of the Russian parliament and Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin. The latter was also a founder of the far right Rodina party, which he headed until 2006. In 2011, President Vladimir Putin appointed him a head of the board of Russia’s Military-Industrial Commission. Rogozin has French connections too: apparently, it was him who helped establish, in 2008, the Institute of Democracy and Cooperation, a Russian “soft power” think-thank headed by Natalya Narochnitskaya, former Russian MP nominated by the Rodina party, and British Eurosceptic writer John Laughland.As the French website Mediapart reported (http://www.mediapart.fr/journal/france/221114/le-front-national-decroche-les-millions-russes), during her visit to Moscow in February 2014, Le Pen secretly met with Putin. Two people were instrumental in setting up that meeting. One was Jean-Luc Schaffhauser, a member of the Marine Blue Gathering, a coalition of far right parties that supports Le Pen, who was responsible for finding funds for the National Front. The other was Alexander Babakov. He briefly headed the Rodina party in 2006, and is now an MP from the United Russia party and a member of the board of the Russia’s Military-Industrial Commission. Yet another investigation (http://navalny.livejournal.com/893521.html) by Navalny revealed that Babakov owned an €11.5 million estate in France.
Reportedly, Schaffhauser introduced Le Pen to Babakov, while the latter – most likely with the assistance from Rogozin – helped arrange Le Pen’s secret meeting with Putin. Few know exactly what they discussed during this meeting, but later revelations suggest that it was a multi-million Euro loan to the National Front.
Meanwhile, Chauprade developed further links with the Russians. He was already familiar to the Russian political establishment. In June 2013, he participated in the meeting of the Russian parliament’s Committee for Family, Women and Children Issues that advanced the eventual adoption of the so-called “Dima Yakovlev Law” that banned adoption of Russian orphan children by LGBT couples and US citizens.
Furthermore, as Mediapart reported (http://www.mediapart.fr/journal/france/111214/le-troisieme-pret-russe-des-le-pen), Chauprade introduced the father of Marine Le Pen, Jean-Marie Le Pen, to Konstantin Malofeev, a Russian oligarch and founder of investment fund Marshall Capital Partners, who was, in summer 2014, put on the EU sanctions list for financing illegal pro-Russian military groups in Eastern Ukraine. Malofeev was instrumental in helping Jean-Marie Le Pen, former leader of the National Front, with obtaining, in April 2014, a €2 million loan from Vernonsia Holdings Ltd., a Cyprus offshore company linked to the Russian investment company VEB Capital.
As could be expected, the “Franco-Russian interest” in Crimea transcended the ideological tenets, if any. Chauprade’s and Malofeev’s friend Philippe de Villiers, French far right politician and businessman, as well as brother of Chief of Staff of the French Army Pierre de Villiers, met with Putin in August 2014. During the meeting, de Villiers suggested (http://www.english.rfi.fr/france/20140816-french-conservative-aristocrat-defends-plans-russian-theme-park) to build, in a joint venture with Malofeev, two Puy du Fou theme parks in Moscow and Crimea.
Chauprade helped the Russians build contacts with many other Western far right politicians. At the end of May 2014, Chauprade participated, as the Swiss newspaper Tages-Anzeiger exposed (http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/ausland/europa/Gipfeltreffen-mit-Putins-fuenfter-Kolonne/story/30542701), in a secret meeting in Vienna convened by Malofeev. A number of European far right politicians, including representatives of the National Front, Freedom Party of Austria and Bulgarian Ataka party, participated in the secret meeting in Vienna too. Chauprade also sat in the presidium, next to Malofeev, Mizulina, Russian religious leaders and CEO of Russian Railways Vladimir Yakunin, of the eighth meeting (http://anton-shekhovtsov.blogspot.com/2014/09/a-rose-by-any-other-name-world-congress.html) of the anti-LGBT World Congress of Families that took place in Moscow in September 2014.
The same month saw that Schaffhauser’s fundraising mission proved to be a success. As Mediapart discovered (http://www.mediapart.fr/journal/france/261114/le-fn-attend-40-millions-deuros-de-russie), the National Front secured a €40 million loan from the First Czech-Russian Bank. Despite the name, this bank belongs almost exclusively to the Russians, namely to the companies and holdings owned by Gennady Timchenko, a major Russian businessman from Putin’s inner circle and a co-founder of Cyprus-registered Gunvor Group Ltd. that, as US officials suspected (http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-money-laundering-probe-touches-putins-inner-circle-1415234261), hosted Putin’s own investments. (Following the Russian annexation of Crimea, the US sanctioned Timchenko and he sold his share in Gunvor to the company’s Swedish co-founder Torbjörn Törnqvist.) Timchenko, too, has French connections: in 2011, he was elected chairman of the Economic Council of the Franco-Russian Chamber of Commerce (CCIFR), an important instrument of the Kremlin’s “soft power” in France. In 2013, Timchenko shared chairmanship of the Economic Council with Total’s CEO Christophe de Margerie, but the latter was killed in an airplane accident in Moscow in October 2014, so now Timchenko apparently remains the only chairman of the CCIFR’s Economic Council.
For his service to the National Front, Schaffhauser, who also became an MEP in May 2014, was paid (http://www.euractiv.com/sections/europes-east/national-fronts-russian-loans-cause-uproar-european-parliament-310599) a consultancy fee of €140.000. As a sign of his loyalty to the Kremlin, Schaffhauser took part in the monitoring mission (http://www.interpretermag.com/fake-monitors-observe-fake-elections-in-the-donbass/) of the “parliamentary elections” in self-proclaimed Donetsk and Lugansk “People’s Republics” on the territories occupied by pro-Russian separatists in Eastern Ukraine. The international observation mission was organized by the same Eurasian Observatory for Democracy & Elections and the European Centre for Geopolitical Analysis that invited observers to the Crimea “referendum”. As the Rue89Strasbourg website reports (http://www.rue89strasbourg.com/index.php/2015/03/27/politique/jean-luc-schaffhauser-de-retour-en-ukraine-en-mai/), Schaffhauser will visit Donetsk in May 2015, allegedly to observe the implementation of the Minsk II agreement. He will be accompanied by representatives of the French NGO “Urgence Enfants d’Ukraine” that was established in September 2014 by a member of the French far right Identitarian Bloc Alain Fragny, and looks like a money-laundering operation.
Was the amount of money that the business structures close to the Kremlin have injected in the National Front that “respect” that Rykov suggested the Presidential Administration to demonstrate to “the French”? Most likely, the “respect” was indeed counted in Euros or contributed to the Russians’ decision to grant the multi-million loan to the National Front, but it is hard to believe that the “official recognition of the results of the Crimea referendum” by Marine Le Pen cost that much. The scope of the cooperation between the French far right and the Russian authorities, which started long before the annexation of Crimea, indicates that it is one of the many elements, albeit a significant one, of the Kremlin’s long-term strategy to support all the anti-EU and anti-US forces in Europe in order to undermine the transatlantic cooperation and ultimately weaken the West.
http://www.interpretermag.com/russia-and-front-national-following-the-money/ (http://www.interpretermag.com/russia-and-front-national-following-the-money/)
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Russia has up to 10,000 soldiers involved in the war in Ukraine and at least 220 have died in battles there in the past year, Russian opposition activists claimed in a report published Tuesday.
The report, which prominent Kremlin critic Boris Nemtsov was working on at the time of his murder in February, seeks to counter overwhelming Russian state media accounts casting the events as a local uprising against the Ukrainian government.
The 64-page report is entitled Putin War, after Russian President Vladimir Putin. Drawing on media accounts, testimonies from relatives and other representatives of dead soldiers and confidential sources, it maintains that hundreds of Russian troops have died fighting in a war that has cost Russia hundreds of millions of dollars.
Including the Russian army, rebel troop numbers have reached as many as 37,000, and the government in Moscow has spent 53-billion rubles (US$1-billion) in military support for the pro-Russian insurgency in Ukraine, according to the report released by opposition activist Ilya Yashin. He and his colleagues completed the research following Nemtsov’s Feb. 27 murder in central Moscow.
“Neither Putin nor any of his generals have the courage to admit the fact of military aggression against Ukraine,” they said in the report, estimating that at least 220 Russian soldiers have been killed in Ukraine.
Yashin said the real number of losses may have been much greater but that he would give figures only for deaths that could be confirmed.
The Russian Defence Ministry has denied that any of its soldiers have fought in Ukraine, saying that the Russians who have joined the armed separatists were volunteers.
The report claimed the soldiers were released from their duties in the army and listed as volunteers. The Defence Ministry promised to pay compensation if the soldiers were killed or wounded, but failed to live up to its commitments, the report said.
Yashin said Russian government actions have harmed the country’s standing in the world and economic well-being.
Russia will pay for the war “with the lives of our soldiers, an economic crisis and political isolation,” according to the report. . .
Yashin said researchers on the report had been subject to intimidation, but that they would not be deterred.
“They killed Nemtsov, so we took over. If they don’t let us work, others will take our place,” he said.
According to Nemtsov’s sources, at least 150 Russian soldiers died in August 2014. Their relatives received 2 million rubles (now worth about $40,000) in compensation and signed non-disclosure documents.
Around 70 Russian soldiers died in January and February in fighting around the city of Debaltseve, the report said, adding that their family members were unable to receive compensation and appealed to Nemtsov for help.
Many Russian citizens engaged in fighting in eastern Ukraine have freely admitted where they come from, but stopped short of confirming they are fighting under Moscow’s orders.
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/world/russia-has-thousands-of-troops-fighting-in-ukraine-report-by-murdered-putin-critic-says (http://news.nationalpost.com/news/world/russia-has-thousands-of-troops-fighting-in-ukraine-report-by-murdered-putin-critic-says)
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The report alleges that Russia played an active part in the war in Ukraine despite official denials from the Kremlin that its troops were involved. It alleges that Russians paid a heavy cost both in terms of hundreds of troops' lives and billions of dollars of taxpayer money.
It ties together interviews with soldiers who say they fought on the frontlines and disguised Russian vehicles so they wouldn't be identified in Ukraine, alongside pictures of Russian troops and heavy weapons allegedly spotted in the country and reports of widespread hiring of Russian mercenaries to fight against Ukrainian government forces.
Overall, the authors estimate that the war in Ukraine cost Russia about $2.5 billion in mercenary fees and refugee assistance alone.
It also alleges that the annexation of Crimea, which led to international sanctions against Russia that helped send it into a deep recession, was orchestrated by the Kremlin to prop up Vladimir Putin's flagging popularity ratings.
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/murdered-russian-opposition-politicians-damning-report-on-putin-is-published-boris-nemtsov-2015-5#ixzz3ZyGtRIHg (http://www.businessinsider.com/murdered-russian-opposition-politicians-damning-report-on-putin-is-published-boris-nemtsov-2015-5#ixzz3ZyGtRIHg)
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Here is the report in Russian.
http://www.putin-itogi.ru/putin-voina/ (http://www.putin-itogi.ru/putin-voina/)
I am printing it, in case of a denial of service (which happened earlier today).
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it is a damming set of revelations , many of which where already partly known ,
however it does attempt to wrap all of russias involvement in the war in ukraine into one good document
hopefully the people who finalised and now have made this report public will live to see an improvement in their country and ukraine
SX
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hopefully the people who finalised and now have made this report public will live ...
SX
I hope so too
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You can be sure Doll and the rest of those Putinists wil say the report is complete BS.
:wallbash:
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Two Russian soldiers arrested in Donbas.
You know, the ones who aren't in Ukraine?
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/05/17/us-ukraine-crisis-casualties-idUSKBN0O20CE20150517 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/05/17/us-ukraine-crisis-casualties-idUSKBN0O20CE20150517)
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This should warm the hearts of all those posters who view Ukrainians as "fascists" who should be wiped off the world map, or otherwise don't think Ukrainian lives matter. For those in denial, the weapons the terrorists have, photographed by Ukrainian citizens, have never been produced in Ukraine and, therefore, their source can only be Russia-
The war in Ukraine may have faded largely from international headlines, but Vladimir Putin’s drip-drip invasion continues. In the last two weeks, forensic evidence, some of which has been reported by monitor organizations and senior Western diplomats, the rest corroborated by eyewitness photography and video, only confirms what the U.S. fears most: A summer offensive is inevitable.
On May 5, the Ukrainian government released new data which says that they have lost 28 towns to Russian-backed separatists since February 18. . . . The map of separatist territory (http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-live-day-443-4-ukrainian-soldiers-killed-12-wounded-with-talks-due-in-minsk/%238192) is as alarming as it is illustrative, especially when it is combined with the daily reports of ceasefire violations and fighting coming out of both the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) and Kiev.
On May 6, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko addressed the National Security and Defense Council and warned (http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-live-day-443-4-ukrainian-soldiers-killed-12-wounded-with-talks-due-in-minsk/%238188) that Russia has 50,000 troops on the border and its proxies have more than 40,000 fighters inside the country. That’s not only a combined 50% increase in possible invaders over July of last year, the month which proceeded the “Russian invasion” on the Ukrainian mainland. It’s more than enough soldiers to invade and gobble up a significant amount of Ukrainian territory.
“There is a convincing evidence that Ukraine strictly complies with the Minsk [ceasefire] agreements and militants constantly violate them,” Poroshenko noted. Separatists do not allow international observers to verify their withdrawal of heavy weaponry. “Militants regularly shoot Ukrainian positions, engage in reconnaissance and subversive activity and provoke armed confrontations in order to disrupt peaceful settlement of the conflict.”
One day later, May 7, the OSCE witnessed a significant amount of fighting both near Donetsk and around a town called Shirokino, 20 kilometers east of Mariupol—part of a trend of heavier fighting which started in late April. The OSCE also reported that one of their surveillance drones was jammed (http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-live-day-444-schastye-artyoma-and-shirokino-attacked-this-morning/%238209) for 10 minutes while attempting to monitor the movement of separatist tanks near Donetsk, in violation of the 50-kilometer demarcation line agreed upon by both sides.
On May 8, the day after the OSCE’s unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) was jammed, the OSCE witnessed three Ukrainian tanks in government-controlled territory—an admitted violation of the negotiated ceasefire. That same day the OSCE witnessed 30 separatist tanks moving toward the front lines (http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-live-day-445-verkhovna-rada-holds-session-to-mark-70th-anniversary-of-victory-in-europe/%238254) within the demarcation line—10 times more than the Ukrainian government was deploying. The OSCE also observed a testing ground for advanced weaponry—proof, according to the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt, of “Russia’s train and equip program in plain sight.”
Each day since has provided more evidence that the Minsk agreement is little more than a piece of paper. For weeks the OSCE, NATO, and citizens of eastern Ukraine brave enough to snap pictures and video have been warning that a large amount of heavy Russian armor and artillery has been headed back to the front lines. The separatist leadership has maintained that this equipment was only moving around to prepare for military parades on Saturday, May 9, to commemorate the 70th anniversary of Nazi Germany’s capitulation to the Soviet Union in World War II. While the movement of this equipment would be a violation of the Minsk agreement whatever the floated reason, since the parades ended the weaponry hasn’t been moved back beyond the demarcation line. . .
It’s not just the amount of firepower now in separatists’ hands that is alarming observers. It’s also the kind of weaponry—specifically, the Strela-10 anti-aircraft missile system.
The Strela-10 is designed to supply close support to troops and vehicles near the front line of fighting. It’s meant to shoot down fast-moving, low-flying aircraft such as helicopters or non-stealth jets. There is significant evidence that the Russian military regularly includes the Strela-10 in important convoys (http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-live-day-351-us-plays-down-talk-of-supplying-arms-to-ukraine/%236659) because it can protect against immediate air threats while longer-range weapons (such as the Buk system, which shot down a MH17 passenger jet in 2014) can perform the same function from further afield. In fact, the first time the Russian-backed fighters were ever seen using T-72 tanks, Strela-10s were filmed escorting the vehicles (http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-liveblog-day-143-ukraine-prepares-to-move-on-donetsk/%233314) from a border crossing in Lugansk just seven days before the MH17 was immolated. There are no documented cases of the Strela-10 system having been captured by Russian-backed separatists, and the T-72 has not been used by the Ukrainian military in this conflict (http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-live-day-351-us-plays-down-talk-of-supplying-arms-to-ukraine/%236659).
On May 2, three Strela-10s were spotted escorting a convoy (http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-live-day-439-large-military-convoy-arrives-in-lugansk/%238133) of two T-64B tanks, three BMP-2s, three BTR-80s, three 2S1 Gvozdika self-propelled howitzers, three BM-21 Grad MLRS, three trucks towing artillery pieces, perhaps 2A65 152mm howitzers, and several other military trucks and fuel tankers through Lugansk. On May 5 Strelas were seen parading through Donetsk (http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-live-day-442-ukrainian-military-reports-27-attacks-last-night/%238180), escorting a similar convoy. But if they were only in Donetsk for the May 9 parade, it’s curious that a similar convoy was spotted by the OSCE (http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-live-day-448-heavy-fighting-near-peski-stanitsa-luganskaya-and-shirokino/%238292) within the line of demarcation near Donetsk on May 10, suggesting that the weapons have not returned to their holding areas as specified in the Minsk protocol.
Could these weapons systems have been mobilized just to deter Ukraine and fortify standing separatist positions? Well, the Minsk protocol was designed to forestall any such scenario and explicitly called for de-escalation rather than retrenchment. Also, Western military officials seem to think the presence of Also, Western military officials seem to think the presence of this materiel has another purpose altogether. In late April, NATO Supreme Commander and U.S. Air Force General Philip Breedlove warned that the Russian military had taken advantage of the ceasefire (http://www.janes.com/article/51295/saceur-analysts-see-russia-renewing-invasion-of-ukraine-in-next-two-months) to train and equip the separatists and to “reset and reposition” their forces. Nor were these mere training exercises. “Many of their [the Russians’] actions are consistent with preparations for another offensive,” Breedlove said, adding that Russia never rattles its saber without the attendant follow-through. Breedlove also suggested that Russia had further integrated its own military’s “[c]ommand-and-control, air defense, support to artillery…making a more coherent, organized force out of the separatists.” Then, on May 11, NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg also warned that the separatists are now so well equipped that they could launch an all-out offensive against the Ukrainian military on little notice (http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-live-day-448-heavy-fighting-near-peski-stanitsa-luganskaya-and-shirokino/%238287) and without direct military assistance. Again, if all this was just to hold the line, then why agree to Minsk in the first place, when that protocol was designed to do just that without the benefit of tanks or APCs?
There’s the added alarm of what the separatist leadership itself says about its imminent plans. On April 23, Vice News broadcast (http://news.vice.com/video/russian-roulette-dispatch-106) an interview with Alexander Zakharchenko, the self-declared head of the “Donetsk People’s Republic.” Asked if he saw the Minsk agreement holding, Zakharchenko was unambiguous: He did not want it to hold.
He categorically rejected one of the main planks of that diplomatic settlement—that the Donbass remain part of Ukrainian territory. “Do you suggest we give up, so our territory can fall into Ukraine’s hands?” he told Vice News. “So that they can put us back into the stalls, like we are some kind of cattle? So that they can drag us to join the EU, to be living off American handouts? We do not want that. We declared that we want to be friends with Russia and that’s what we are doing. That’s what the majority of the local population want. At least 95 percent.”
Zakharchenko, who wants to see the return of the Soviet Union, mooted the possibility of other conducting “referenda” to certify their breakaway status from Ukraine.
“Aside from Zakharchenko’s belligerent rhetoric,” a senior Western diplomat told The Daily Beast, “the most worrisome evidence is the continued active tempo of Russian training activities with the separatist armies, and the presence of advanced Russian surface-to-air missile systems near the contact line in blatant violation of the Minsk agreement.”
As ever, the Putinists command one side to abide by a compact they never had any intention of honoring themselves. Only now, they’ve managed to embarrassingly snare the State Department into defending their own arguing position. While John Kerry was breaking bread (and potatoes) with Putin and Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov at the Russian president’s personal residence in Sochi last week, Poroshenko made an ambiguous statement about plans to regain Donetsk International Airport, once the cynosure for some of the fiercest fighting the war as yet seen and some of the bravest Ukrainian resistance to better-armed separatists.
“I have no doubt,” Poroshenko said at the premiere of Airport, a new documentary about the battle for that installation, “we will free the airport, because it is our land. And we will rebuild the airport.”
Kerry was in Russia on his first state visit since 2013, and clearly there to ask for various favors from a government the United States has sanctioned yet nevertheless believes it still needs to resolves various foreign crises from Syria to Iran and Ukraine. So the opportunity to scandalize America’s top diplomat—something of a contact sport in Russia these days—was too good for the Kremlin-owned press to pass up. Asked by the state-owned media about Poroshenko’s provocative although nebulous pledge, Kerry replied as the media hoped he might by saying that he hadn’t seen the Ukrainian president’s remarks but would warn him to “think twice” before kickstarting any military operation.
The U.S. embassy in Moscow tried to downplay the inevitable awkwardness this created between two allies, noting, for instance, that Poroshenko has elsewhere ruled out (http://t.co/qjzkik6vbz) taking back any of the Donbass by force. But Moscow just sat back and enjoyed the squirming. Vitaly Churkin, Russia’s ambassador to the UN, said (http://tass.ru/en/world/794533), “It’s an important thing that Kerry made this statement and that he said the U.S. believed it was crucial to observe the accords reached in Minsk on February 12,” neglecting of course to mention how his own government has “observed” those accords.
The Ukrainians, meanwhile, were left furious at Kerry for kowtowing to the Kremlin (again) and now worry that the Obama administration has gone out of its way to telegraph its own disposition should fighting indeed escalate in the coming weeks. Kerry went so far as depict the Ukraine crisis as the result of bilateral culpability: “Whoever has instigated” war, he said, should stop, as it has gone on too long already. He also floated the possibility of U.S. sanctions relief on Russia “if and when Minsk is fully implemented.” Washington, it is feared in Kiev, will do nothing if Minsk is turned to toilet paper. And that’s as good as an engraved invitation for Putin to proceed as he’d already planned to anyway.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/05/17/new-putin-invasion-coming-this-summer.html (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/05/17/new-putin-invasion-coming-this-summer.html)
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Two Russian soldiers arrested in Donbas.
You know, the ones who aren't in Ukraine?
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/05/17/us-ukraine-crisis-casualties-idUSKBN0O20CE20150517 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/05/17/us-ukraine-crisis-casualties-idUSKBN0O20CE20150517)
So what. Nobody denied Russian volunteers aren't in Donbass fighting the nazis. Unfortunately those two soldiers will probably be tortured to Death by the nazi freaks.
But where's the arrests of the thousands of tanks and Equipment that according to the nazis continually have invaded Ukraine?
By the way, Your Source, reuters, had a piece where they admitted Ukraine has a big nazi problem. But I don't expect you to link to that one anytime soon.
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The source is the SBU.
The soldiers were not volunteers. They are currently in the Russian military.
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The source is the SBU.
The soldiers were not volunteers. They are currently in the Russian military.
Probably on leave. If Russia really wanted to invade, Kiev and nazi nest Lviv would be turned into Ashes in no time.
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Probably on leave. If Russia really wanted to invade, Kiev and nazi nest Lviv would be turned into Ashes in no time.
Another non-response. Natural, you got your ass kicked by a girl (AGAIN).
Well done counselor
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So what. Nobody denied Russian volunteers aren't in Donbass fighting the nazis. Unfortunately those two soldiers will probably be tortured to Death by the nazi freaks.
These neo-Nazis certainly get about; even in Norway: [is there anything you'd like to confess to us Natural? ;)]
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14260195
http://www.hate-speech.org/nordic-neo-nazis-hail-rudolf-hess/
http://www.thelocal.no/20150212/norway-under-threat-from-neo-nazi-groups
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Movement_of_Norway
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Probably on leave. If Russia really wanted to invade, Kiev and nazi nest Lviv would be turned into Ashes in no time.
Just to get some balance on your Nazi mantra:
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukraine-crisis-who-are-russian-neo-nazi-groups-fighting-separatists-1463489
http://euobserver.com/political/128108 European neo-Nazis hold meeting in Russia.
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Probably on leave. If Russia really wanted to invade, Kiev and nazi nest Lviv would be turned into Ashes in no time.
"...nazi nest Lviv..."? My future stepdaughter, refugee from the muscovite invasion of Luhansk, attends a Russian language public school in Lviv. How many Ukrainian language public schools are there left in kleptocratically and fanatically anti-Ukrainian "Russian"-ruled Krym?
Natty, your level of ignorance concerning all extant facts Ukrainian is mind-boggling extreme...along with your prejudice against anything or anyone that does not have the blessing of the KGB FSB controlled Kremlin.
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Like he cares.
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Natty, your level of ignorance concerning all extant facts Ukrainian is mind-boggling extreme...along with your prejudice against anything or anyone that does not have the blessing of the KGB FSB controlled Kremlin.
He will never admit it. My in laws in Kyiv are Russian. They speak Russian in their daily lives. They rarely use Ukrainian. Yet, they have no issues with the government, nor do they feel persecuted in any manner whatsoever.
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More proof of Russian activity in Donbas -
Hackers have consistently used low-level cyberwarfare tactics to advance Russian goals in Ukraine. A dedicated group of hackers successfully infected the email systems of the Ukrainian military, counterintelligence, border patrol and local police. The hackers use a spear-phishing attack in which malware is hidden in an attachment that appears to be an official Ukrainian government email.
For the most part, the technologies are not advanced (http://fortune.com/2015/04/29/russian-cyberwar-ukraine/) but the attacks have been persistent. Lookingglass, a cybersecurity firm, suspects the Russian Federal Security Service (http://lgscout.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Operation_Armageddon_FINAL.pdf) (FSB) is the culprit behind the virus dubbed Operation Armageddon. . .
Cyberattacks have increased in frequency around the time of military action, possibly indicating that the attacks are part of the overall offensive. The number of callbacks (http://www.fireeye.com/blog/threat-research/2014/05/strategic-analysis-as-russia-ukraine-conflict-continues-malware-activity-rises.html)—computer communications showing someone is hacking a computer—to Russia increased as the turmoil rose.
http://www.newsweek.com/putin-controls-all-ukraines-airwaves-phones-and-computers-332439 (http://www.newsweek.com/putin-controls-all-ukraines-airwaves-phones-and-computers-332439)
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More on the Russian soldiers captured in Ukraine -
Under Ukrainian law, the men face life sentences if found guilty of committing a terrorist act.
The Ukrainian military said documents and information obtained during interrogations proved the two men are Captain Yevgeny Yerofeyev, 28, and Sergeant Alexander Alexandrov, 26, Russian citizens and members of the 3rd Special Forces Brigade of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, part of the country's Main Intelligence Directorate, a foreign military intelligence division commonly known as the GRU.
At a televised press conference in Kiev, the commander of Ukraine's 92nd Brigade, Viktor Nikolyuk, said Yerofeyev and Alexandrov were wounded and later captured during a fight between their unit and his forces Saturday afternoon near the town of Shchastya. One Ukrainian soldier was killed and another wounded in the skirmish, he added, showing a rifle allegedly used by the Russians.
http://mashable.com/2015/05/18/ukraine-prosecute-russian-soldiers/#:eyJzIjoiZiIsImkiOiJfeDhtZW9vdTRmbTljajdiaiJ9 (http://mashable.com/2015/05/18/ukraine-prosecute-russian-soldiers/#:eyJzIjoiZiIsImkiOiJfeDhtZW9vdTRmbTljajdiaiJ9)
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What do you think of this idea?:
Ukraine should make a big public plea for a prisoner exchange, where these two Russian soldiers are traded for Nadia Savchenko. It should make a huge headline in the media. If Moscow refuses, they'll appear even more blood-thirsty than they already do. Ukraine will come across as more humanitarian. Those two opposing realities will become more clear. If Moscow refuses, more attention should be focused on these two Russians, with intense scrutiny and daily reports in the media.
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I haven't thought about it to that degree, PG.
Here is an interview with one of the captured soldiers. Both were injured, and currently are hospitalized.
http://youtu.be/3Elfquw_HBk
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The face of the enemy. A pawn in Putin's chess game.
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I haven't thought about it to that degree, PG.
Here is an interview with one of the captured soldiers. Both were injured, and currently are hospitalized.
http://youtu.be/3Elfquw_HBk
He did well under interrogation. He tried to cover for his buddies. Not much you can do when your life depends on the cooperation of the enemy. You definitely feel sorry for him.
Where are the Novorossiya cheerleaders now?
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This man will never be able to go home after giving this interview.
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This man will never be able to go home after giving this interview.
He will be fine.
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Here is an interview with one of the captured soldiers. Both were injured, and currently are hospitalized.
http://youtu.be/3Elfquw_HBk
He is in a military intelligence unit and he spilled his guts that easily, allegedly "without physical coercion"? Something stinks on this to high heaven.
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Maybe he realises by spilling the bean, he can bargain his way into getting asylum in an EU country and a fat bank balance.
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He wouldn't have told them anything they didn't already know.
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He wouldn't have told them anything they didn't already know.
He is also lying
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What do you think of this idea?:
Ukraine should make a big public plea for a prisoner exchange, where these two Russian soldiers are traded for Nadia Savchenko. It should make a huge headline in the media. If Moscow refuses, they'll appear even more blood-thirsty than they already do. Ukraine will come across as more humanitarian. Those two opposing realities will become more clear. If Moscow refuses, more attention should be focused on these two Russians, with intense scrutiny and daily reports in the media.
This has already been suggested by a Ukrainian:
excerpt
"Rather than prosecuting the two detainees, Anton Heraschenko, an adviser to Ukraine's interior minister, suggested exchanging the two detained Russian servicemen for pilot Nadia Savchenko, who is currently sitting in a Russian jail cell, and some 400 other Ukrainian prisoners of war."
http://mashable.com/2015/05/18/ukraine-prosecute-russian-soldiers/#:eyJzIjoiZiIsImkiOiJfeDhtZW9vdTRmbTljajdiaiJ9
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He is also lying
About what, and how do you know?
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About what, and how do you know?
I am doubtful that he is lying, however a lot of what he said can probably be corroborated via Ukraine intelligence. I also read that Russia is pulling it's paratroopers out of Eastern Ukraine in a big rush as a result of these two being captured and talking. That could be a signal his story is credible. If so, I hope Merkel and the rest of the useless political cowards publicize this worldwide and put Putin on the spot.
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About what, and how do you know?
He is lying about his mission and the last names of his sister units. He is lying about the size of his unit and the the size of sister units. He says there are 4 to 6 groups rotating in and out of different regions along the front and that his unit is 14 men. So there are only 64 men along the front? I was a 120 man company and a 600 man battalion. I knew every guy in my company and a good number of guys in my battalion. He was to report and observe but not cross the contact line?
He is lying. He has had some training in Resistance, but not enough.
How do I know? Deduction and human behavior, he will reveal more about his mission than he will about his mates. he told us how his commander and his unit is but not the names of mates. He is an honorable man and accorded Russia well in captivity. He knows WAY more than he is letting on, but it is hard to really interrogate this man when his condition is weak. His survival and recovery are a matter of national prestige.
When this war is over, people may regard him as a hero.
If so, I hope Merkel and the rest of the useless political cowards publicize this worldwide and put Putin on the spot.
And then what? What do you mean put him on the spot? Put Putin on the spot? You mean sing a version of Blueberry Hill?
Here on this forum pro-Euromaidan activists do not support pulling SWIFT away from Russia and you want him to be put on the spot or whatever that means?
You deal with a thug on his terms - no mercy.
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He is in a military intelligence unit and he spilled his guts that easily, allegedly "without physical coercion"? Something stinks on this to high heaven.
He's trying to survive.
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They saved his leg before the interrogation, and no prisoner taken by the Ukrainian army (as opposed to paramilitaries) has ever been executed. So, there is no chance he would not be alive.
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These 2 Russians being captured doesn't SEEM like a very big story. If Ukraine wants to 'show off' these soldiers, then they can do it. It was already clear Russia has some involvement, and will continue to.
Ukraine vows to show off 'captured Russian soldiers'
Kiev (AFP) - Ukraine vowed on Monday to show off two Russian soldiers it claimed to have captured while fighting Moscow-backed forces in the separatist east.
Related Stories
Russian troops captured in Ukraine treated in Kiev hospital Associated Press
Ukraine says two Russian soldiers captured in east AFP
Ukraine says it will prosecute captured Russian soldiers for terrorist acts Reuters
Two Russian Troops Captured While Fighting In Ukraine Huffington Post
Report: Some Russian Soldiers Quit Army Over Ukraine War Huffington Post
The politically-charged declaration came as a tenuous February truce was broken by more violence that claimed the lives of at least four Ukrainian servicemen......
http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-vows-show-off-captured-russian-soldiers-111125695.html (http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-vows-show-off-captured-russian-soldiers-111125695.html)
Fathertime!
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He's trying to survive.
Then he obviously does not believe in his mission. He gave all the information with far too much ease. Either he gave mostly false information, or he is not what they say he is, or he does not believe in the mission much at all. I am inclined to think he does not believe in the mission.
However the ease with which he gave up the all the information is not at all congruent with somebody who would have had his training. Something simply does not add up.
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So, there is no chance he would not be alive.
He is in captivity. Like Steamer said, he is just trying to survive. There is no dishonor in that.
These 2 Russians being captured doesn't SEEM like a very big story. If Ukraine wants to 'show off' these soldiers, then they can do it. It was already clear Russia has some involvement, and will continue to.
Ukraine vows to show off 'captured Russian soldiers'
Kiev (AFP) - Ukraine vowed on Monday to show off two Russian soldiers it claimed to have captured while fighting Moscow-backed forces in the separatist east.
Related Stories
Russian troops captured in Ukraine treated in Kiev hospital Associated Press
Ukraine says two Russian soldiers captured in east AFP
Ukraine says it will prosecute captured Russian soldiers for terrorist acts Reuters
Two Russian Troops Captured While Fighting In Ukraine Huffington Post
Report: Some Russian Soldiers Quit Army Over Ukraine War Huffington Post
The politically-charged declaration came as a tenuous February truce was broken by more violence that claimed the lives of at least four Ukrainian servicemen......
http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-vows-show-off-captured-russian-soldiers-111125695.html (http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-vows-show-off-captured-russian-soldiers-111125695.html)
Fathertime!
What's the big deal? According to your people, there is no war. This man is not a soldier but a terrorist. He will be tried in public in a court of law. May the best post-Soviet legal code win
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He knows he is worth a lot in terms of propaganda value to the Ukrainian Government.
Any person in his position will try to bargain that for political asylum in an EU country and enough money to retire on.
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He knows he is worth a lot in terms of propaganda value to the Ukrainian Government.
Any person in his position will try to bargain that for political asylum in an EU country and enough money to retire on.
Sorry bud, but you seem to know next to nothing regarding this situation. He's not going to get much money. His family back in Russia may be in grave danger. He certainly will not be thought of as a hero, unless 99% of the information he gave was false, which is possible. If he had any proper training he would have had a script of all false information to give out, and he would have done it with ease, which is what it looked like.
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Then he obviously does not believe in his mission. He gave all the information with far too much ease. Either he gave mostly false information, or he is not what they say he is, or he does not believe in the mission much at all. I am inclined to think he does not believe in the mission.
However the ease with which he gave up the all the information is not at all congruent with somebody who would have had his training. Something simply does not add up.
So, tell me what you know about SERE school?
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He is in captivity. Like Steamer said, he is just trying to survive. There is no dishonor in that.
What's the big deal? According to your people, there is no war. This man is not a soldier but a terrorist. He will be tried in public in a court of law. May the best post-Soviet legal code win
My impression is the W. Ukrainians could capture a Russian soldier anytime, being that there are 1000s there. I don't see this particular incident as being very important. It would be interesting to know what Is being said behind the scenes between the two nations.
Ukraine leadership may have decided this was the time to make a spectacle since not much else is working too good.
Fathertime!
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My impression is the W. Ukrainians could capture a Russian soldier anytime, being that there are 1000s there. I don't see this particular incident as being very important. It would be interesting to know what Is being said behind the scenes between the two nations.
Ukraine leadership may have decided this was the time to make a spectacle since not much else is working too good.
Fathertime!
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/10/russian-fighter-ukraine-motorola
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So, tell me what you know about SERE school?
AC is a SERE grad & a general in the Swedish navy
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If he had any proper training he would have had a script of all false information to give out, and he would have done it with ease, which is what it looked like.
His script doesn't appear to include the insistence that he is a volunteer over there on his own accord and not a Russian contract soldier. :wallbash:
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His script doesn't appear to include the insistence that he is a volunteer over there on his own accord and not a Russian contract soldier. :wallbash:
In fact he admits to being a normal, contract Russian soldier.
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Here's the real facts behind this propaganda show by the ruthless nazis kidnapping and torturing Russians in order to lie to the gullible fools who believe in them:
"Konashenkov explained that Aleksandrov and Yerofeev have both had combat training and at some point in their lives served in the army, but neither was still active in the military.
Kiev must put an end to its tactic of torturing detainees in order to force confessions, the ministry said. It also passed on a request made by the Veterans Association of Special Forces, urging Kiev “to stop SBU’s abuse of the wounded to get a favorable testimony.”
Hundreds of Ukrainian troops have been detained in Russia during the course of the Ukrainian civil war, noted Konashenkov, stressing that all were treated according to international norms, received medical help, and were allowed to return home to their families."
http://rt.com/news/259817-kiev-detention-torture-russia/
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You're quoting RT???
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
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Here's the real facts behind this propaganda show by the ruthless nazis kidnapping and torturing Russians in order to lie to the gullible fools who believe in them:
I can't speak to the treatment of Ukr. forces by the Russians.
However, those words sound pretty strange, considering what "Дядя Володя" , the uncle of a girl I visited in Krasnodar, who works for the FSB, told her. He told her, "may you never end up in any of the floors below ground level at [the large FSB building where he works in Krasnodar]".
Given what he rather clearly implied, about the way Russians treat other Russians, what is the basis for your belief that Ukrainian soldiers would be treated better than Russian security forces treat their own fellow citizens?
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Hundreds of Ukrainian troops have been detained in Russia during the course of the Ukrainian civil war, noted Konashenkov, stressing that all were treated according to international norms, received medical help, and were allowed to return home to their families."
Total and utter rubbish. If it were true, Nadia Savchenko would be at home.
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Gotta love all those silly putinists!
If their idol the midget president tells them the sun rises from the west they'll probably believe it...
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
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Here's the real facts behind this propaganda show by the ruthless nazis kidnapping and torturing Russians in order to lie to the gullible fools who believe in them:
"Konashenkov explained that Aleksandrov and Yerofeev have both had combat training and at some point in their lives served in the army, but neither was still active in the military.
Kiev must put an end to its tactic of torturing detainees in order to force confessions, the ministry said. It also passed on a request made by the Veterans Association of Special Forces, urging Kiev “to stop SBU’s abuse of the wounded to get a favorable testimony.”
Hundreds of Ukrainian troops have been detained in Russia during the course of the Ukrainian civil war, noted Konashenkov, stressing that all were treated according to international norms, received medical help, and were allowed to return home to their families."
http://rt.com/news/259817-kiev-detention-torture-russia/ (http://rt.com/news/259817-kiev-detention-torture-russia/)
Now I know your just trying to bust our balls.
That was a good one, Roy. ;)
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You're quoting RT???
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
Some people . . . .
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You need to broaden your reading from Russisan propaganda sources, Natural.
The prisoner was questioned from his hospital bed, after surgery to save his leg, which was badly injured when he was fighting in observing an area in Donbas. As Russia allegedly has not sent combatants to Ukraine, this soldier is not protected by the Geneva Conventions on POW's. However, that nazi fascist government in Kyiv not only attempted to contact the soldier's family (the one in the posted video) in Russia to advise him he'd been wounded (with no success), but also has provided the Red Cross access to both soldiers captured (both wounded, and both still in hospital in Kyiv). Had they been tortured, is it realistic that the Red Cross would be allowed to visit them?
Well, who knows? Evil Banderites are tricky, after all, and the Western Red Cross likely is in cahoots with them. Because those Kyiv Banderites and their Western conspirators are duplicitous evil fascists, unlike the Christ-like, straightforward Russians, who have done nothing but: (a) provide humanitarian aid to the purely motivated, besieged rebels, and (b) save Crimeans from mass slaughter at the hands of ruthless, marauding, barely civilized Ukrainians. Right?
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Video of second soldier. He also was injured, though less severely than the first soldier.
http://youtu.be/L3khPZucwTQ (http://youtu.be/L3khPZucwTQ)
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The soldiers were captured by the Aidar Battalion. You know, those genetically fascist, anti Russian forces that the rebels claim they shoot on site, because the Aidar Battalion "takes no prisoners".
The soldiers volunteers are visited in hospital by representatives of well known fascist loving organizations, namely, the OSCE, Amnesty International, and the EU's monitoring mission -
http://www.hromadske.tv/society/do-likarni-z-rosiiskimi-viiskovimi-pribuli-tri-miz/ (http://www.hromadske.tv/society/do-likarni-z-rosiiskimi-viiskovimi-pribuli-tri-miz/)
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Well Bo, you accuse me of Reading Russian propaganda and I you of Reading Ukrainian. But it's strange how you always ridicule my links but expect me to take Yours like it came from the Lord himself.
Truth is nobody here has the Whole story. I was merely showing what the accused side (Russia) had to say about it. But fair and balanced is apparently a big no-no here.
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RT is not "fair and balanced". While the same can be said of Ukrainian sources, the fact that Ukrainian authorities have given the Red Cross, Amnesty International, the OSCE, and EU monitors access to the Russian soldiers suggests, logically, that they have not been tortured. If any of the aformentioned organizations states otherwise and I read it, I will post that information.
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I was talking about fair and balanced in context With members of RWD accepting opposing viewpoints to their own. That goes out the window once a subject like this (Russia/Putin is evil) reaches a Critical mass of YES supporters.
PS. Russia Today is a splendid News organization. That's probably why there's talk of bombing it ;D
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You mean like the "fair and balanced" approach you take in labelling the entire Ukrainian government "nazis"?
RT is a propaganda arm of the Russian government. So no, it is not "splendid".
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You mean like the "fair and balanced" approach you take in labelling the entire Ukrainian government "nazis"?
RT is a propaganda arm of the Russian government. So no, it is not "splendid".
Must have the last Word, right? So yes, RT is splendid and it's very popular With many westerners as well, who's tired of the constant one-sided Washington propaganda about Russia. Sorry, but facts do occasionally hurt!
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Natural, do you teach your kid this morally relativist crap or is this special punishment reserved just for us?
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Natural, do you teach your kid this morally relativist crap or is this special punishment reserved just for us?
The way you're following me around here suggest you're not feeling punishment, rather pleasure ;D
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You mean like this absolutely factual story? - http://actualidad.rt.com/opinion/karen-mendez/view/136298-centro-investigacion-biologica-eeuu-fort-detrick-brote-ebola (http://actualidad.rt.com/opinion/karen-mendez/view/136298-centro-investigacion-biologica-eeuu-fort-detrick-brote-ebola)
Then there is this story, citing another paper - http://russian.rt.com/article/44182 (http://russian.rt.com/article/44182)
That paper refuted the RT claim - http://www.nst.com.my/node/21682 (http://www.nst.com.my/node/21682)
Then there was the claim of protests in Eastern Ukraine re child soldiers fighting for Ukraine, complete with a photo of protesters. But, there was no protest, and the RT photo turned out to be of members of Russia's Public Chamber - http://rt.com/politics/177824-ukraine-child-soldiers-protest/ (http://rt.com/politics/177824-ukraine-child-soldiers-protest/)
Then there was the story of the child crucified on a public square in Donetsk. Reported as fact. Removed, without correction, when proven false by Western media.
(http://1-ps.googleusercontent.com/hk/ZeJ-ptHeodZsDhPCtzlz5KUp3i/www.stopfake.org/content/uploads/2014/08/491x350x92.png.pagespeed.ic.XGLIbAQ_tkN2zpBfvT3e.jpg)
Then there was a report that MH17 was downed by a Ukrainian plane which actually, was looking to down Putin's presidential plane. Reported as fact by that "great source", RT -http://russian.rt.com/article/41332 (http://russian.rt.com/article/41332)
more than once -http://russian.rt.com/article/41334
Should I continue?
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Ready made replies for all eventualities? And this you dug up and linked in just 10 minutes? You might be some kind of a superwoman but there's a limit to even that, haha.
I can't keep on With this tonight, I'M not paid to Write stuff on the internet. Besides, soon Movie time With the wife, so.......
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Just need to know where lies are reported. I read that stuff so that I am informed. The site is neutral. It isn't restricted to RT, btw. It includes other Russian, and Ukrainian newspapers.
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Ready made replies for all eventualities? And this you dug up and linked in just 10 minutes? You might be some kind of a superwoman but there's a limit to even that, haha.
I can't keep on With this tonight, I'M not paid to Write stuff on the internet. Besides, soon Movie time With the wife, so.......
Lol
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Must have the last Word, right? So yes, RT is splendid and it's very popular With many westerners as well, who's tired of the constant one-sided Washington propaganda about Russia. Sorry, but facts do occasionally hurt!
I don't get RT at home, but when I'm in hotels it is often one of the offered channels. When I watch it, I certainly see an entirely different (non USA ) perspective. Most Americans aren't aware it exists.
Fathertime!
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Russian activists find graves of Russian soldiers who died in Ukraine. Of course, they weren't there, right apologists?
Opposition activists in Moscow say they have discovered fresh graves of several Russian Special Forces officers. The accusation comes as Russia's Defense Ministry continues to deny that Russian
soldiers are fighting in Ukraine -- despite the recent capture in Luhansk of a pair who identified themselves as Russian officers.
Activists Ruslan Leviev and Vadim Korovin say they decided to launch their own investigation into the deaths of Russian servicemen in Ukraine. To back their accusations, they released photographs and video from a graveyard in Tambov Oblast, where a soldier identified as Anton Savelyev was recently
buried.
“This is our response to Russian propaganda that says there are no troops in Ukraine,” Leviev told the Kyiv Post by phone. “We want to show society that our Defense Ministry is literally abandoning its own troops by disavowing them like this. … We are showing society the consequences of this
war.”
A video of the grave shows a photograph of a young man in full military uniform, the mound of dirt over the grave adorned with flowers and a large wreath.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM1je1C4SVc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM1je1C4SVc)
“To the defender of the Fatherland, from the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation,” the wreath reads.
An information request sent to the Russian Defense Ministry on the graves in Tambov wasn’t immediately answered.
Leviev said two other graves had been discovered so far: one in Tatarstan and one in the Kurgansk region. Apart from Savelyev, officers Timur Mamayusupov and Ivan Kardapolov were also identified as recently deceased.
The three servicemen were allegedly from the 16th special operations brigade of the Russian military intelligence, and “served together, were friends, and they all died together on May 5, 2015 in Ukraine,” Leviev said.
According to him and Korovin, the three men were all buried on May 10 and they had likely died in fighting that took place from May 4-5 in eastern Ukraine.
That fact was partly backed up by Ukrainian journalist Andriy Tsaplienko, who posted photographs on Facebook of Russian weapons discovered after a battle in Novotroyitske, not far from Volnovakha in Donetsk Oblast.
“Russian diversionists tried to come towards Ukrainian soldiers. There were about eight in the group… A battle broke out, spetznaz-style, quick. Six of the eight Russians were left lying in the grass. Two fled,” he wrote, noting that the battle occurred on May 4.
Tsaplienko also published several photos of Russian weapons said to have been found at the scene, including a Kizlyar combat knife “so beloved by members of Russia’s GRU (military intelligence).”
According to activist Korovin, there are likely many other fresh graves throughout Russia that the public is not yet aware of.
“We can assume, since the fighting was very intense, that if we have information of three people dying in the same place, three people who were friends and died at the same time, the losses might actually be much more substantial,” Korovin said in a video of the gravesite posted on YouTube.
“Only by attracting the public’s attention to these freshly dug graves can we stop the war, or at least influence it,” he said.
“It was a very difficult process” to track down the graves, Leviev said, adding that it all started when he received a message on social media saying a Russian soldier had recently been killed.
“Then we spoke to friends and acquaintances and found out he was from Tambov, so we came here not even knowing where to look for the grave,” he said, noting that these three soldiers were in no way connected to the two officers recently detained in Ukraine.
The social media pages of Mamyusupov’s mother confirmed that her son had been killed, with numerous photographs of the young man in military attire captioned with mournful messages such as, “Timur, we will never forget you” or “Never forget.”
In response to a question on her page (http://ok.ru/profile/555316799391/pphotos/772407155615) about what had happened to Timur, one of his relatives replied: “He died on a military assignment.”
This is not the first time during the conflict that Russian activists have uncovered the graves of servicemen killed in mysterious circumstances.
In August, journalists in Russia flocked to a cemetery in Pskov Oblast, where a local newspaper reported a secret burial of several paratroopers likely killed in Ukraine.
Several journalists were threatened or attacked while trying to get to the bottom of the secret burials, and Lev Shlosberg, a local politician and publisher who first spoke out about the mystery of the killed
paratroopers, was badly beaten in late August, shortly after publishing an investigation into the funerals.
The Russian Defense Ministry has repeatedly denied sending actively serving troops to Ukraine, saying those who have been captured or killed on Ukrainian territory were either retired, discharged or had gone to fight as volunteers.
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv-post-plus/moscow-activists-say-they-found-fresh-graves-of-russian-soldiers-389037.html
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International Red Cross visits the Russian soldiers captured in Ukraine, now hospitalized in Kyiv. This should lay to rest the outright lies on torture written in
propaganda rag "media source" Russia Today.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/05/20/us-ukraine-crisis-redcross-idUSKBN0O522920150520 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/05/20/us-ukraine-crisis-redcross-idUSKBN0O522920150520)
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Two Russian soldiers killed near Debaltseve buried in Togliatti. This is according to a Russian blogger.
http://tltpravda.ru/blog/main/9420.html (http://tltpravda.ru/blog/main/9420.html)
My BIL's family is from a village just outside Debaltseve. Has lived there for centuries. Always considered themselves Ukrainians, and speak Ukrainian in their daily lives. The local mood is, they never wanted to be part of Russia, they don't want to be part of the so called "DNR", they have never supported the terrorists, and they view the latter as "criminals and low lifes".
So much for local support.
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Neville, RT does indeed offer a different perspective to most Western news--one of the reasons I no longer do any contract jobs with them. It is a full on propaganda tool, 98% lies with just enough facts stirred in to make it seem credible.
I still have friends there, but those relationships are now strained and are sadly fading. To them, if one does not blindly accept the Kremlin mandates on coverage, then that person is at least a borderline traitor.
I refuse to take the side of any government, Russian or American, and the best journalism at least tries to communicate truth. That is why a host of RT staffers have left, or been forced out, over the past couple of years.
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I don't get RT at home, but when I'm in hotels it is often one of the offered channels. When I watch it, I certainly see an entirely different (non USA ) perspective. Most Americans aren't aware it exists.
Fathertime!
We have a Russian package on our cable service and RT is included. My wife has never watched it in fact, she refuses to watch it. She will only watch selected talk shows on the other Russian news channel. Russia One I think it's called. Her reasoning is it is all government propaganda with one purpose. She hates that her mother watches and believes it
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Neville, RT does indeed offer a different perspective to most Western news--one of the reasons I no longer do any contract jobs with them. It is a full on propaganda tool, 98% lies with just enough facts stirred in to make it seem credible.
I still have friends there, but those relationships are now strained and are sadly fading. To them, if one does not blindly accept the Kremlin mandates on coverage, then that person is at least a borderline traitor.
I refuse to take the side of any government, Russian or American, and the best journalism at least tries to communicate truth. That is why a host of RT staffers have left, or been forced out, over the past couple of years.
What about Syria?
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I support the people of Syria, and especially the threatened Orthodox Christian community there. The fact that Mr. Putin seems to agree with me on Syria perhaps serves as proof that even a broken clock is right twice a day.
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Assad is barrel bombing his people with chemical weapons.
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Exclusive: Russia masses heavy firepower on border with Ukraine - witness
..."
Russia's army is massing troops and hundreds of pieces of weaponry including mobile rocket launchers, tanks and artillery at a makeshift base near the border with Ukraine, a Reuters reporter saw this week.
Many of the vehicles have number plates and identifying marks removed while many of the servicemen had taken insignia off their fatigues. As such, they match the appearance of some of the forces spotted in eastern Ukraine, which Kiev and its Western allies allege are covert Russian detachments.
The scene at the base on the Kuzminsky firing range, around 50 km (30 miles) from the border, offers some of the clearest evidence to date of what appeared to be a concerted Russian military build-up in the area."...
(http://s4.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20150527&t=2&i=1051658450&w=&fh=&fw=&ll=644&pl=429&r=LYNXMPEB4Q139)
The article contains a slide show, this is pic one of 10. They're well worth looking at.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/05/27/us-ukraine-crisis-russia-military-idUSKBN0OC2K820150527
Preparation for another Russian offensive could be underway.
Brass
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That is actually Ukrainian military equipment.
It was secretly driven across into Russia and then will be used to invade Ukraine. Then Ukraine will blame Russia for this invasion.
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interesting read here below
Top Russian economist: Moscow can’t maintain current levels of military spending for much longer
http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/05/24/top-russian-economist-moscow-cant-maintain-current-levels-of-military-spending-for-much-longer/
That military spending is eating up the reserve fund is the result of Russian decisions made four years ago, Guriev says. At that time, the government proposed increasing defense spending from three to more than four percent of GDP, something Finance Minister Aleksey Kudrin suggested was impossible. He was summarily fired and that is what the Kremlin seeks.
According to Guriev, “the goal of the Kremlin turned out to be unbelievably ambitious both by Russian and by world standards.” Most European countries are not spending more than two percent of GDP on defense; the US spends 3.5 percent, and only nine countries in the entire world are now spending more than four percent.
Russia “simply is not in a position” to spend that way for long, the economist says. Moreover, its defense industry isn’t capable of modernizing that quickly. And that suggests that the Kremlin is less interested in that than in supplying its forces in Ukraine, something that could set the stage for a new attack in the coming months.
Or alternatively, Guriyev continues, it could simply be an indication that the Ukrainian war is costing Putin far more than he counted on and that he will have to find a way out.
Whatever proves to be the case, he concludes, “Kudrin’s economic logic today is even more just than it was on the day he was fired. If Russia in favorable times couldn’t allow itself to spend up to four percent of GDP on defense,” then it certainly can’t at a time when oil prices have collapsed and Western sanctions have been imposed.
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It appears the financial markets are pricing in some sort of new action. The ruble is suddenly weakening against the dollar, although the dollar has been strengthening in general against most currencies.
Fathertime!
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More evidence of Russian arms in Ukraine.
Doll's continuous assertion that all weapons in Donbas were "Ukrainian" is proving false.
The Kremlin continues to claim that any Russians fighting in eastern Ukraine are there on their own volition, and that heavy weaponry used by the pro-Russian separatists was seized from Ukraine's military.
But the Atlantic Council's analysis shows that several types of Russian-built weaponry and ammunition that have never been used by Ukrainian government forces have appeared in the hands of the separatists.
One such weapon is a modernized version of Russia's main battle tank, which did not even enter service in Russia until 2013, the T-72B3. It is distinguished by an upgraded targeting and fire control system as well as other visible improvements on earlier models of the T-72 battle tank.
Other uniquely Russian weapons seen in eastern Ukraine are the Pantsir-S1 antiaircraft vehicle, known as the SA-22, and 2B26 Grad missile launchers mounted on the chassis of a Kamaz truck. Russia's military began using those vehicles in 2012.
The report also documents the presence in eastern Ukraine of Russian Dozor armored scout vehicles with advanced communications systems.
Lighter weaponry found in eastern Ukraine that has never been in the Ukrainian Army's arsenal includes shoulder-launched surface-to-air missiles, or MANPADS, several types of rocket launchers, antitank guided missiles, land mines, and various types of small arms.
The researchers' evidence includes a combination of satellite data and sophisticated crater analysis from territory in eastern Ukraine that had been battlefields during the summer of 2014, such as an area outside of the village of Panchenkove.
The crater analysis helped determine the trajectory and origins of artillery fire, with four of five different attacks said to have originated from Gukovo on the Russian side of the border.
Journalists who visited that launch site in Russia have quoted residents who confirmed barrages were fired from there. They also discovered clear signs of Russian military activity -- including a large number of red endcaps from 122 mm artillery rockets.
Satellite imagery also confirms the movement of Russian troops and camp buildups along the Ukrainian border.
The Kremlin has described those deployments as part of tactical and strategic training exercises.
But the Atlantic Council says the evidence proves that those camps have been used as "launching points for Russia's war in Ukraine," serving as “the staging ground” for Russian military equipment and troops to enter eastern Ukraine.
The report says that Russian military commanders have ordered Russian troops who are sent into Ukraine to remove any insignia or other markings that would be obvious evidence of a Russian military incursion.
It quotes military experts who estimate that Russia had at least 12,000 regular troops deployed in eastern Ukraine by March 2015, with about 50,000 at the staging areas on the Russian side of the border.
http://www.rferl.org/content/report-russia-military-intervention-ukraine/27041692.html (http://www.rferl.org/content/report-russia-military-intervention-ukraine/27041692.html)
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For those that want to read the actual report in it's entirety......
http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/publications/reports/hiding-in-plain-sight-putin-s-war-in-ukraine-and-boris-nemtsov-s-putin-war
PDF link is at the bottom of the page.
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Interesting different way to establish confirmation for those that persist in following the line of Putins lies !
Armed With Google and YouTube, Analysts Gauge Russia’s Presence in Ukraine
WASHINGTON — An unusual investigation using publicly available videos, smartphone photographs and satellite images shows that Russia is continuing to defy the West by conducting protracted military operations inside Ukraine, according to an independent report.
Russia has long dismissed Western allegations that its military has intervened in Ukraine as little more than computer-generated propaganda.
In an attempt to puncture the Russian denials, independent experts have operated like digital Sherlock Holmeses, using Google’s Street View, YouTube, Instagram, Twitter, satellite photographs and Russia’s version of Facebook, including social media updates by Russian soldiers. That research was then supplemented by more traditional sources like court documents and local media reports.
“Independent researchers, using open sources and rigorous methodology, have demonstrated that Russian troops and Russian weapons have been an important part of the fight in Ukraine’s east,” said John E. Herbst, a former American ambassador to Ukraine and one of the authors of the report, Hiding in Plain Sight: Putin’s War in Ukraine, which is to be released Thursday by the Atlantic Council, a Washington-based research center.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/28/world/europe/videos-and-google-help-researchers-gauge-russias-presence-in-ukraine.html?_r=1
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The recent law passed in Russia, making it illegal to mention Russian soldiers killed during "peacetime", suggests war in Ukraine will heat up -
In Russia, it is now forbidden to talk about Russian soldiers killed during peacetime. President Vladimir Putin, for whom the outcry over Russian boys dying in eastern Ukraine apparently got too loud, signed a decree to this effect.
That’s interesting, since according to Putin, there aren’t any Russian soldiers who could be killed there. One who leans toward being cynical could see in the edict – which bans discussion of something that, according to the government, doesn’t exist – a kind of advancement for the rule of law: Opposition leader Boris Nemzov paid with his life for his investigation into Russian soldiers killed in the Donbas; he was gunned down. Russian mothers who still dare to whisper the names of their dead sons, on the other hand, can count on only having to report to a prison camp.
Whoever passes such laws is fighting a war. And he is planning even more war. It’s as simple as that. The West is deceiving itself when it continues to describe the daily shootouts in the Donbas as “constant violations of the ceasefire,” as German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier again did in Kyiv. They’re part of Putin’s policy of war.
A ceasefire that is constantly broken is not a ceasefire. And the dead who may not be spoken about are still dead.
http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/ukraine-trotzdem-tot-1.2498863 (http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/ukraine-trotzdem-tot-1.2498863)
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sorry to offend my UA 'affiliated' friends but this just pisses me off now. MH-17 nobody still knows, the clusterfuck in eastern Ukraine and now we still argue about what Russia describes as 'losses?'
Too many cheesedics in the mix again, and nobody can deny that. Try. Let dead dogs lie my great grandma said.
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I'm not really certain what you are saying.
MH17 is still under official investigation. A European group of reporters with access to the official investigation of alleged the BUK missile used to bring down MH17 was supplied by Russia, shot by Russians, and spirited back over the Russian border.
The site of the tragedy is within terrorist controlled territory, and it is still unstable, so not all evidence has been uncovered.
Can you imagine an American president stating no one can report on the deaths of American soldiers in war time, let alone, when the country is not officially at war?
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I'm just despaired and sick of a lot of events that have transpired since the conflict began.
Looking at what I posted I'm sorry (embarrassed too) for the language I used.
It's created a rift among so many people involved with anything FSU related, and on another site (not this one) even produced what I consider 'hate speech'.
I enjoy this forum and most of the people so will continue to use it regardless.
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No need to apologize.
The reason for my post is, I think it is a sign of, potentially, a new offensive. The representatives of the DNR/LNR refuse to meet with Ukraine and the EU to implement Minsk II. Ukrainian soldiers continue to be shelled, injured, and killed. Russia has sent more weaponry and soldiers to the region. And now, it wishes to create some "plausible deniability" by making it a crime to report on a dead soldier.
Were I a Russian mother with military aged sons, I would be looking to emigrate. Anywhere.
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In the week prior to the downing of MH-17, a Russian reporter embedded with the rebels reported the downing of a helicopter by a "new" air defense weapon. A few days later the same reporter had news that the "rebels" had just downed a Ukrainian fighter jet (confirmed by the Ukrainians), and then the following week I watched, on live TV, as that same reporter was overjoyed in being the first to report that supposedly, the rebels had just shot down what they thought at the time was a Ukrainian military cargo plane.
I watched him interview a rebel commander who was equally ecstatic, with smoke rising in the distance. That same commander was soon thereafter recalled back to Russia and replaced.
I took a screen shot of the Russian TV Network's webpage which posted broad headlines and uploaded a YouTube link of the event. Then in less than an hour, a frantic media "recall" of the story came across my email. As a credentialed member of the media, I and anyone else who had access was thus put on notice that LifeNews was recalling the story. That means that permission to retransmit or rebroadcast anything related to that news feed was prohibited.
LifeNews quickly changed their home page to a generic version resembling "somebody shot down a plane but we're not sure of who the hell it was," and the YouTube feed of their previously celebratory reporter and his rebel commander interview mysteriously disappeared. A few weeks later that reporter was awarded a medal at the Kremlin, along with several other reporters from LifeNews, for "heroic" reporting, although no details were given for what made him a hero other than he had been embedded in a war zone.
The Dutch investigation has concluded that it was downed by a surface to air missile (not by an air to air strike), and of course the Russian media and paid trolls promptly sprung into action to denounce the report. The report, using both local eyewitnesses and aviation and weapons experts, have determined the type of missile used, and pinpointed the area where the missile was launched (inside rebel territory). It doesn't help the Russians that the Dutch have several photos of the BUK system being transported back across the border into Russia.
The Russian version of what happened has changed more than a certain Russian defense minister probably changes his boxers, and even independent observers have found gaping holes in the Russian theories.
I was not there, but had a front row seat thanks to LifeNews. Thankfully, I was not the only one who did, and the Dutch commission has in their possession what I and others saw.
The only mystery about MH-17 is why the Russians continue to make themselves look dumb in the denials.
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The US has been very circumspect in releasing what it knows.Most probably because of all the potential issues involved that would back Russia into a corner-perhaps this announcement is signalling a changing of US approach.
I am in no doubt the US could have accurately pointed to the exact circumstances immediately but chose to allow the other proofs to be made-- which shows anyone with half a brain can see who is culpable.
Obama declared his readiness to assist in the investigation of the crash MH17
Washington ready to assist in the investigation of the causes of the disaster liner Malaysian Airlines, shot down in eastern Ukraine in the summer of 2014, US President Barack Obama.
"I pledge the full support of the Netherlands from the United States. There will never be forgiveness for those who shot down the plane over Ukraine," - Obama said, taking in the Oval Office of the White House the Dutch royal couple, reports Interfax-Ukraine with reference to the Dutch broadcasting company NOS.
In addition, the US president thanked the Dutch side for the way in which it is investigating the crash flight MN17.
http://nv.ua/world/countries/obama-zayavil-o-gotovnosti-pomogat-v-rassledovanii-krusheniya-mn17-51433.html
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very interesting read here below
has all the same hallmarks as the narrative on crimea and east ukraine
SX
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/czech-slovak-officials-angered-by-russian-documentary-on-1968-invasion/522936.html
Czech and Slovak officials have voiced anger over the way Russian state television depicted the 1968 Moscow-led invasion of Czechoslovakia in a recent documentary film.
In early 1968, Prague spearheaded liberal reforms in then-Soviet dominated Czechoslovakia. Within months, the Soviet Union invaded the country alongside Warsaw Pact members Poland, Bulgaria, East Germany and Hungary, ultimately stifling the reforms widely referred to as the Prague Spring. The occupation lasted until 1989, when the Velvet Revolution brought about the end of Communist rule in the country.
In the film "The Warsaw Pact — Unclassified Pages," which aired May 23 on Rossia-1, the invasion was portrayed as a defensive maneuver, carried out to stave off an invasion being plotted by NATO countries.
"The historical narrative of an alleged peaceful civil uprising with a romantic name, the Prague Spring … has been undermined by those that lived through these events," the film's narrator said.
State Duma Deputy Yury Sinelshchikov, who served in one of the military groups that participated in the Warsaw Pact operation in Prague, featured prominently in the documentary. In an interview filmed in Prague, he attested to the theory that the popular historic interpretation of the invasion — that it was carried out in a bid to quash the Czechoslovakian liberalization policies — was incorrect.
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It would appear that the new offensive has begun with heavy fighting all along the DNR front, as well as a push towards Mariupol.
When the DNR was queried, they said that Ukrainian forces were not fighting. Instead they were simply leaving the area and the DNR was moving forward to occupy that which Ukrainian forces left.
The Ukrainians claim that over 1000 Russians are fighting them in the area of Mariinka, along with a great number of Russian tanks.
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It would appear that the new offensive has begun with heavy fighting all along the DNR front, as well as a push towards Mariupol.
When the DNR was queried, they said that Ukrainian forces were not fighting. Instead they were simply leaving the area and the DNR was moving forward to occupy that which Ukrainian forces left.
I thought that was not allowed under Minsk 2? Aren't ALL forces restricted to the areas they occupied prior to a certain date?
The Ukrainians claim that over 1000 Russians are fighting them in the area of Mariinka, along with a great number of Russian tanks.
Any independent observations of this?
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Here is one of the sites that query when I think something's going on. It puts up the posts from the various social websites and official news blurbs.
http://liveuamap.com/
Check it out and see if you think that the DNR offensive has begun. Normally there are about five or six of the red balls indicating activity on the map.
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I thought that was not allowed under Minsk 2? Aren't ALL forces restricted to the areas they occupied prior to a certain date?
Any independent observations of this?
Minsk is dead.
The attacks are widespread-and it looks like there is a pattern that equals planning.
Quite a lot of Ukrainian casualties
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http://izvestia.kiev.ua/article/83677
http://www.ostro.org/general/society/news/471864/
http://ria.ru/world/20150603/1068034293.html
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Significent attempt to take ground from Ukrainians yesterday failed.
Can Anyone Stop Putin’s New Blitz?
On Wednesday, Ukrainians awoke to the all-too-predictable news that Moscow-backed separatists—a contingent that consists of quite a lot of Moscow-dispatched Russian soldiers—launched a fresh, multi-pronged assault on Ukrainian-held territory. The primary targets lie west of a line of the demarcation meant to keep a cease-fire that was over before the ink had dried on the so-called “Minsk II” accords.
“Although we’re still assessing details, this is clearly a major, multi-front escalation that reflects continued non-compliance with Minsk by the combined Russian-separatist forces,” a senior Western diplomat told The Daily Beast. When asked if this was the start of a big Russian push for more terrain in the Donbas—the name for the regions encompassing Donetsk and Lugansk—one European leader replied: “Sure looks like it.”
So here’s what we know. The two main towns hit today were Marinka and Krasnogorovka, both not far from the major industrial city of Donetsk. The nearest separatist lines to these targets are the Petrovsky district of the city to the east, Aleksandrovka to the south-east and Novomikhailkovka to the north-east. Video footage, purportedly shot in Petrovsky today, clearly recorded the sounds of outbound artillery fire, with the attendant description of the footage claiming that the separatists were firing from positions in the immediate vicinity of residential high-rises. (Of course, firing from civilian areas doesn’t just violate Minsk II, but the Geneva Conventions.)
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/06/03/can-anyone-stop-putin-s-new-blitz.html
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The western media continues to pick up on themes we have been commenting on for well over a year. The current G7 meeting has Ukraine high on agenda-- and what to do about Russia.
Failing to confront Putin’s lies about Ukraine only encourages him to do worse
June 06, 2015 3:00 am • Trudy Rubin/The Philadelphia Inquirer8
“I can tell you outright and unequivocally that there are no Russian troops in Ukraine,” Russian President Vladimir Putin told a live TV audience in April.
He was flat-out lying. Moscow has armed and directed the so-called “rebel forces” in eastern Ukraine and bolstered them with its own troops. Thousands of Russian troops are massing on Ukraine’s eastern border, possibly poised for a further invasion.
Yet Western leaders still won’t publicly challenge Putin’s lies.
“If you don’t call it by what it is, there is less pressure to confront the real issues,” John Herbst, the former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, told me this week.
Indeed, European leaders still hope that Russia will finally abide by a ceasefire signed in February in Minsk, Belarus, which called for the removal of foreign troops from Ukraine, the pulling back of heavy weapons, and the disbanding of “illegal groups.” So far the accord has failed miserably. Why should anyone be surprised? Russia denies it sent troops or weapons into Ukraine or created the illegal groups that began the war.
The White House denounces Russian aggression in Ukraine — Vice President Biden declared last week that the conflict is “a test for the West.” Yet President Barack Obama apparently still (fruitlessly) hopes for greater Russian cooperation on Iran or Syria, and shows little stomach for challenging Putin’s aggression in Ukraine.
Obama sent Secretary of State John Kerry to meet Putin in Sochi last month, where Kerry reportedly showed him photos of Russian air defenses and other weapons in eastern Ukraine as proof the United States knew what he was up to. But Kerry didn’t make the photos public, and Russian officials dismissed the NATO evidence as misinformation. No surprise: The state-controlled press billed the Kerry visit as a capitulation.
Clearly, the Kremlin feels it can continue to destabilize Ukraine — and to deny that it is directing the war there. By refusing to confront those lies more directly, the West plays into the Kremlin’s hands.
http://fremonttribune.com/news/opinion/columnists/failing-to-confront-putin-s-lies-about-ukraine-only-encourages/article_db3a92e0-a23c-5e25-bf51-defc7c884e87.html
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good article below ,
however im still trying to figure out what this guys game is
SX
Ex-terrorist leader: only an idiot will deny that “republics” in Donbas are a Kremlin
Igor Girkin, ex-minister of defense of the so-called “Donetsk People’s Republic” has once again publicly contradicted Russia’s official denials of its involvement in the war in Ukraine. Answering a question about Russian volunteers coming to fight to Ukraine’s war-torn eastern regions at the Polit-Ring show on Neuromir TV on May 12, the former terrorist leader commonly known as “Strelkov” stated that, increasingly, the Russian volunteers that come to Donbas to defend the “Russian world” that is attempted to be instated in the Luhansk and Donetsk “People’s Republics” (“LNR” and “DNR”) return to Russia in disappointment.
“They see the chaos that is going on there. And the chaos is quite terrible. They [the militants] come there being motivated, understanding that they were going to defend the ‘Russian world,’ but now are forced to defend regimes that were planted with the Kremlin’s support. It is useless and foolish to deny this. To think that they [the separatist “republics”] formed by themselves means making an idiot or a fool out of oneself,”
Girkin commented, noting that only a small fraction of the Russians coming to fight in Donbas are wounded or captured in battle: most leave Donbas, disenchanted with the chaos and lawlessness, which he calls “Makhnovschina,” referring to the times of the anarchist leader Nestor Makhno whose Black Army fought to create a stateless anarchic society in eastern Ukraine during 1918-1921. He notes that while the terrorist republics, in particular, the “DNR,” have tried to combat this anarchic “Makhnovschina,” some armed formations wreaking havoc in Donbas are endorsed by the authorities and cause more mayhem than the informal ones, and that the authorities don’t even try to address this problem and are an “imitation” and “simulacra.”
In the interview, Girkin also states that Ukraine is ahead of the separatists in creating an efficient army. “In a year or maybe less they will be able to fight against Russia. Because it will be a large army. Yes, it will be loose and poorly instructed, but it will be a real large army with combat experience,” he said. Girkin also noted that though the Ukrainian soldiers can be called “undisciplined drunkards,” the “militia” of the self-proclaimed republics is doing the same. “Everyone is drunk, a huge development of drug addiction – it’s true,” he stated.
Girkin goes as far as to commend the Ukrainian government in their recent war-related initiatives:
“Ukraine is creating necessary tools. I understand that there a draft bill adopted on introducing martial law [Girkin is referring to the bill on the legal regime of martial law signed by Ukrainian President Poroshenko on June 9]. This will allow them in the event of the exacerbation of the situation to use the army lawfully, to introduce martial proceedings, to carry out confiscations under the law, and not according to what every commander on the site imagines doing, to carry out mobilization and introduce compulsory labor. There is nothing close to this in the “LNR” and “DNR.” Ukraine is consistent, it creates tools for conducting full-scale war, an army, it has created an anti-Russian ideology and is consistently implementing what its leaders say. And for us, it’s the usual business: we say one thing, do another, while wanting yet something else. So we end up with something strange… if we end up with anything at all.”
After fleeing to Russia in August 2014 together with other terrorist leaders of the self-proclaimed “republics,” Igor Girkin has given a series of interviews contradicting the official Russian version of events in Donbas. He has slammed the leadership of the self-proclaimed “republics” in Donbas, declared that the Crimean referendum is a farce, admitted to starting the war in Donbas, stated that Putin might end up in the Hague.
Girkins claims about volunteers becoming disenchanted with reality in Donbas coincides with a recent study of Russian social media groups showing Russians are increasingly losing interest in joining the Russian pro-separatist militia in Donbas.
http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/06/10/ex-terrorist-leader-only-an-idiot-will-deny-that-the-republics-in-donbas-are-a-kremlin-creation/
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OSCE report on fighting near Mariinka, demonstrating yet again who the real Nazis are.
Unfortunately, useful idiots and conspiracy theorists will dismiss the report.
http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/162116
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Still more information coming on who the invaders are--
Captured Russian mercenary with a tattoo in the form of a swastika
June 13 fighters 8th individual company "Aratta" Duk "Right Sector" took captive thriller "DNR" near Shyrokynoho. His name Tolstokorov Roman A. He was a citizen of the Russian Federation , a native of the city Zelenokumsk Stavropol Territory. Action said that he left the location "DNR" and moved to the Ukrainian side Shyrokynoho after he was beaten by the same mercenaries through it in the form of a swastika tattoo. Tolstokorov says this tattoo - a consequence of his criminal record, he made him in prison when serving his sentence.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/ato/biyci-pravogo-sektoru-zahopili-v-polon-rosiyskogo-naymancya-z-tatuyuvannyam-u-viglyadi-svastiki-438921.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WCNzHY4-rw
httpsPublished on 14 Jun 2015
June 13, 2015 soldiers of the 8th separate company "Aratta" Duk "Right Sector" during a combat mission captured militants, a citizen of. His name Tolstokorov Roman A., born in 1982, born in Zelenokumsk Stavropol Territory. Below - exclusive video frank conversation with prisoners. Usually captive people say the truth instead of what they want to hear. But that impressed me the person who speaks frankly and without coercion. Who is he, like what was on the Ukrainian land with arms and both eventually was captured, he will tell himself. I want to draw the attention of viewers, listeners on two things. Asked idea profess those warring DNRivtsi, which can be called ideological, captive said: "THEY uverenы, and something so dolzhna be. What Vova Putin himself all otberet Ukraine". That is - there's no "autonomy", "fighting for the rights of Russian speakers' or rejection" fascist coup in Kiev. " Honestly and openly admit that this is not "dissent" or something similar, but of occupation and collaboration. The second point - Prisoner says what, in his opinion, is a mistake of those who supported the NPT. He believes that it all comes down to what they would like to live material ("as in"), but not considered that, although in larger salaries but also costs more, because people are living there and the same. As see - again, no idea. In one - a frank desire to occupy our country, using the most duryachy and poor segments of our population. Remember that. And fight for our country to victory. PS When I turned off the camera and said goodbye to him, he once bit awkward asked: "How think me back to Russia soshlyut not?"://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WCNzHY4-rw
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Residents of the Donbass tired of being used as human shields.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-15/residents-of-east-ukraine-protest-against-rebels-over-shelling?cmpid=yhoo
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as time goes by more info leaks out .
this scenario below if true would fit the model required to do the job by russian forces in ukraine
SX
ukraine gets hold of russian plan for large scale invasion of ukraine .
Specialists from the group “Mirotvorets” acquired documents from the Russian General Staff that confirm Russia’s intentions to invade and occupy the Ukrainian territories east of the Dnipro river.
The General Staff of the western military district already agreed on the plan at the beginning of April in Petersburg – and wanted it to be carried out in spring/early summer 2015. It foresees to skirt big cities, and to cut communication lines and destroy infrastructure within 15 days. Such an operation would be carried out by battalion tactical groups (BTG) of the Russian regular army – as Dmytro Tymchuk (Information Resistance) also has repeatedly underlined in his military updates.
The invasion would be backed by massacres of civilians – in order to blame the Ukrainian army and justify the advance – and be again disguised as an “DNR/LNR”-operation. It would be split into two parts: first an attack of the Kharkiv/Donetsk oblasts, then of Poltava, Kyiv and Chernihiv. The increasing activities of (Belo) Russian military on the border with Ukraine support those intentions (see the most recent military exercises).
The Russian southern military district for its part worked out a plan to attack Zaporizhzhiya and Melitopol in order to open up a corridor to Crimea.
We can assume there are similar plans with Transnistria, according to recent Russian propaganda and military activities in the region.
http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/06/17/ukraine-gets-hold-of-russian-plan-for-large-scale-invasion/
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One of the problems faced in assessing the merit of any story is the credibility of the source. We have seen many untrue stories planted for western media to pick up on-- the saving grace is that eventually the media has got smarter in what it writes -- and repeats .
Here is Moscow rebuttal of the story above.
Moscow reacted to the words on the plan Gerashchenko capture Ukraine
The Russian Defense Ministry called the "plan of the General Staff of the Russian Federation to seize the Left-Bank Ukraine" , which was previously published adviser to Interior Minister Anton Gerashchenko fake.
The journalists said the Russian Defense Ministry spokesman Major-General Igor Konashenkov, the "RIA Novosti".
"It makes no sense to go into the details of this fake. We have repeatedly said that the purpose of such stuffing does not convey the truth, and to start the next tantrum in the Western media on the eve of the upcoming EU summit," - said Konashenkov.
"I can not imagine that these fantasies, entitled as" the work plans of the General Staff of the Russian Federation to seize the Left-Bank Ukraine ", painted in the Ukrainian General Staff. The fact that there are no specialists of this level, it is known to all, even to leaders of Ukrainian" destroyer battalions "fighting for his leadership during the civil conflict in the south-east. They just about anyone not complain publicly, from the supreme commander of Poroshenko to the House of Representatives of the US Congress, "- said the representative of the Russian Defence Ministry.
http://apostrophe.com.ua/news/society/accidents/2015-06-16/v-moskve-otreagirovali-na-slova-geraschenko-otnositelno-plana-zahvata-ukrainyi/27084
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More on this specific concept.
Capture of Ukraine by Russian troops: how big a risk
Experts commenting on the published plan big offensive of the Russian army
Tuesday, June 16, 2015, 20:33
Experts believe it unlikely a large-scale military offensive on the part of Russia
People's deputy of the faction "People's Front" Anton Gerashchenko published documents allegedly showing that Russia has prepared a large-scale offensive, disguised as militants attack LC / DNI. According to the plan drawn up in April, during the 15 days planned to seize Kharkov, Donetsk, Poltava, Kiev and Chernihiv region. Mr. Gerashchenko did not delve into the possibility of implementing such plans, noting that it depends on the readiness of Ukraine and neighboring countries to resist aggression Putin. Meanwhile, respondents "Apostrophes", experts believe that the alleged large-scale attack Russia Ukraine is extremely unlikely.
For information about that in Russia we have developed a plan of large-scale offensive against the Ukraine on its Facebook page published the MP from the faction "People's Front", the Secretary of the Verkhovna Rada Committee on Legislative Support of Law Enforcement, an informal adviser to Interior Minister Anton Gerashchenko. With reference to the "secret documents", developed in the headquarters of the Western Military District of the Armed Forces, he argues that the district and the seizure of all the Left Bank of Ukraine, according to the plan of the General Staff of the Russian Federation, is given only 15 days. Thus the aim of the attack is the rapid establishment of control over the territory and communications without the seizure of large cities and regional centers.
According to the document, the group of Russian troops "North" must invade Ukraine in two stages - first in Kharkiv and Donetsk regions, and then in Poltava, Kiev and Chernigov. The invasion of Russian troops, according to the plan must masquerade as militants attack LC / DNI. At the same time, added Mr. Gerashchenko, the command of the Southern Military District of the Russian Federation was developed a similar plan, according to which Russian troops have hit the Zaporozhye and Melitopol through the area of Berdyansk and Mariupol and exit to Perekop isthmus to open land routes messages to the Crimea.
In addition, said the MP in the Russian General Staff also has plans for an attack on the Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova and the Baltic States to seize access to the border with the former Soviet Union. "Will they be realized depends on the willingness of the peoples of these countries to resist aggression and willingness to Putin NATO to protect its allies and countries that once betrayed their presidents and, following the lead of Russia did not allow them to become members of NATO, "- said Anton Gerashchenko.
It should be noted that the value of the document and the explanatory notes thereto are questionable. For example, "the Russian military" in some cases, to write the word "Donbass", the one with the letter "a", which is more characteristic for native Ukrainian language. In addition, the presented photocopies of documents not print "top secret", page numbering, as well as indications that the pages of the document pierced, as it should be when working with materials of the level of importance.
The probability of occurrence is very low Russian
Experts doubt the likelihood of a full-scale offensive deep into Russia in Ukraine, although do not rule out such a development. Thus, the chief editor of "News resistance" Yuri Karin believes that the probability of a new militant attacks largely depends on the personal decision of Russian President Vladimir Putin. And his behavior, the expert emphasizes, it is practically impossible to predict. This ambitious plan for the Russians to capture the left-bank part of Ukraine, Mr. Carin called quite feasible: "It all depends on what forces will be involved in the possible attack. If Russia uses all its military capabilities, over 15 days, they can wipe the floor with Ukraine face of the earth, not only to capture these areas. However, if the attack will take place in the context of a hybrid war, there is a question. We have experience in the Donetsk airport, the boiler under Debaltseve where events developed very slowly. "
At the same time, the expert said, it is necessary to take into account the fact that the plan of the General Staff of the Russian Federation reportedly developed in April. Consequently, it does not take into account the three-line defense of Ukraine, the construction of which is still ongoing. "Thus, the publication of such a document can be regarded as an element of putting pressure on Ukraine and the international community, which should be more flexible in negotiations with Russia", - said Yuri Karin.
Senior analyst at the International Centre for Policy Studies, Anatoly Oktisyuk also notes that "the plan of the Russian Federation" was developed in April. According to him, if there was a real danger of escalation of the situation after VE Day, and now the situation has changed. " In the current circumstances, Russia is unlikely to be decided on a full-scale offensive , "- said the expert.
However, said Anatoly Oktisyuk, there are several factors that could push Putin to a new escalation of violence. Among other things, we are talking about the absence of any decision on the Donbas, which is disadvantageous for Russia and could force the Kremlin to stimulate action to change the status quo. In addition, some incentive for a new offensive of Russians could also contribute to the internal political situation in Russia. " The Kremlin is a fierce struggle between the "party of peace" represented by the business elite of the country, as well as the "party of war" in the face of the military leadership of Russia. Thus, before Putin's dilemma: either to accept the "perestroika", or finally show himself a fighter for the "Russian world". And as "restructuring" is now starting very risky, he can choose the second path , "- said the expert.
Furthermore, he added Mr Oktisyuk should not forget also about the situation in the temporarily occupied territories of the separatists of Donbass, where the locals are increasingly expressing their dissatisfaction, and even began to hold rallies in protest against the war . "They believe that the Russian divided into several grades, when" the best Russian "living in the Crimea, and the" worst "- the Donbas. We should not forget about the position of Ukraine, which, apparently, has set its sights on the isolation of the region. Thus, all the signals for Russia is negative. Consequently, this trend should be changed either by going to some concessions, or by the escalation of the conflict ", - he concluded.
http://apostrophe.com.ua/article/politics/2015-06-16/zahvat-ukrainyi-rossiyskimi-voyskami-naskolko-velika-opasnost/1854
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however im still trying to figure out what this guys game is
SX
That is THE question, I posted a couple of links and stories that deal with this specific topic-- and as you can see-- the same question is being asked by many observers.
The conclusions certainly outline the possibilities.
Short of all out assault-including aircraft- I do not think Russia is capable of carrying out such a plan.If aircraft are used-- it is the end of any pretence that Russia is not attacking-- and far increases the likelihood of direct western involvement. Despite the reluctance so far by the west-that is still something Putin knows he must avoid.
My best guess -- wider attacks will be designed to spread Ukrainian forces and stretch them-while the real goal will be the land bridge to the Crimea. Mentioned in the various stories-- it is likely that cities will be bypassed (effectively surrounded and cut off) in that process in a mad scramble to cover a lot of open ground.
The military build up on the Crimean border indicates the attack will also come from that direction-- and that can only succeed with surprise and speed-- and perhaps air cover.
A lot of what happens now is likely to be at Putins whim-so every move by the west is crucial.
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In response to the Atlantic Council's report on massive Russian involvement in Donbas -
http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/publications/reports/hiding-in-plain-sight-putin-s-war-in-ukraine-and-boris-nemtsov-s-putin-war
Vice news has traced one Russian solder's journey -
http://news.vice.com/article/russia-denies-that-its-soldiers-are-in-ukraine-but-we-tracked-one-there-using-his-selfies
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yes , the vice article /video is pretty compelling we watched it earlier in the week
the match ups on the pics are enough to demonstrate his journey with the russian army and inside ukraine ,
SX
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this has some interesting possibilitys ,
essence of maskarovka ?/or just lukashenka preparing his own military ?
SX
http://www.eurasiareview.com/18062015-why-is-belarus-conducting-military-exercises-on-ukrainian-border-oped/
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This is a translation, from a Russian newspaper, of an excerpt from a Kremlin policy paper. Note, according to this, it was the Poles and Brits who funded Maidan, not Americans, as well as oligarchs (which I have posted in the past).
Very well worth the read, as it is Russia's "road map" to the invasion of Ukraine.
The original -http://www.novayagazeta.ru/politics/67389.html (http://www.novayagazeta.ru/politics/67389.html)
The translation - http://www.unian.info/politics/1048525-novaya-gazetas-kremlin-papers-article-full-text-in-english.html (http://www.unian.info/politics/1048525-novaya-gazetas-kremlin-papers-article-full-text-in-english.html)
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thanks bo ,
certainly a good insight into the ''WHY '' of their thinking within the kremlin
this spells it out and fits the actions we have all witnessed over the duration of this since maiden closely
angela merkel is spot on with her comments of mr putin ''living in a different world ''if this written scenario was believed to be do able without any push back from ukraine and rest of the world
SX
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This is a translation, from a Russian newspaper, of an excerpt from a Kremlin policy paper. Note, according to this, it was the Poles and Brits who funded Maidan, not Americans, as well as oligarchs (which I have posted in the past).
Very well worth the read, as it is Russia's "road map" to the invasion of Ukraine.
The original -http://www.novayagazeta.ru/politics/67389.html (http://www.novayagazeta.ru/politics/67389.html)
The translation - http://www.unian.info/politics/1048525-novaya-gazetas-kremlin-papers-article-full-text-in-english.html (http://www.unian.info/politics/1048525-novaya-gazetas-kremlin-papers-article-full-text-in-english.html)
This is in the must read category-I am surpised only SX has commented.
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Interesting article on a return to Cold War tactics by Russia -
http://news.vice.com/article/russian-spies-suspicious-books-and-the-new-cold-war-emerging-in-europe
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Interesting article on a return to Cold War tactics by Russia -
http://news.vice.com/article/russian-spies-suspicious-books-and-the-new-cold-war-emerging-in-europe
Create enough confusion-muddy the lines between truth and fiction- destroy peoples faith in the written word-- all = modern day Russia !
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Good article, although it was from early in the year.
Parts of this were a familiar then during Security Council meetings, especially Moscow's claim that there was nobody in Kyiv with legit authority to work with the Kremlin: "lack of a distinctive political body which the Russian Federation could negotiate with..."
The fact that the Ukrainian Constitution outlines a very clear path for any territorial changes is quietly disregarded. Tact that the Kremlin has known all along that Ukrainian oligarchs and citizen groups (Not the hated USA) was responsible for funding Maidan, yet have lied to the Russian people and to the world about it, unveils the moral bankruptcy of the current administration.
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An interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski, well worth the read -
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/interview-with-zbigniew-brzezinski-on-russia-and-ukraine-a-1041795.html
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An interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski, well worth the read -
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/interview-with-zbigniew-brzezinski-on-russia-and-ukraine-a-1041795.html
It is another voice expressing views and conclusions that many agree on.( the forum here has said much of this for a long time now!)!!
His conclusions are ok - save for his last point-that Ukraine should agree not to join NATO.
It should not be for Russia to dictate anything to Ukraine whatsoever-- any reason to defer to Russian desires has long gone.
If not joining NATO-or being accepted into NATO arrangements is forced on Ukraine-- then reestablishing a nuclear capacity would be urgent for Ukraine -- as well as maintaining a massive military.
Logic would dictate not doing this and incorporating Ukraine into NATO defensive arrangements in the future would be far more desirable-from every perspective.
First-- every piece of Russian military must be removed from all Ukraine-including the Crimea .
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If that truly is Russia's concern (as stated by Putin), and Ukraine says fine, we won't join NATO, there is no reason to continue to destabilize Ukraine.
I don't believe that is Russia's real reason for destabilizing Ukraine, however, I don't think NATO will accept Ukraine in any event. Making that statement would be profound, for Ukraine, and would not change its reality one bit.
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If that truly is Russia's concern (as stated by Putin), and Ukraine says fine, we won't join NATO, there is no reason to continue to destabilize Ukraine.
I don't believe that is Russia's real reason for destabilizing Ukraine, however, I don't think NATO will accept Ukraine in any event. Making that statement would be profound, for Ukraine, and would not change its reality one bit.
The practicalities of reaching any agreement that removes Russia from Ukraine mean that everything is negotiable as such-- I would agree today to not join NATO if it meant the removal of Russians from ALL of Ukraine-- and the end of attempts to destabilise Ukraine.
The reality is this-- any of that will only happen by forcing the Russians out . Of course-- anything signed with Russia I would treat the same way as Russia has in respecting treaties and agreements.
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The practicalities of reaching any agreement that removes Russia from Ukraine mean that everything is negotiable as such-- I would agree today to not join NATO if it meant the removal of Russians from ALL of Ukraine-- and the end of attempts to destabilise Ukraine.
The reality is this-- any of that will only happen by forcing the Russians out . Of course-- anything signed with Russia I would treat the same way as Russia has in respecting treaties and agreements.
So basically you want the war to keep going and more people killed.
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So basically you want the war to keep going and more people killed.
Ignoring you attempt at imitation of FT( in attributing something or a conclusion not being said) and dealing with the bigger picture of your question-it is not an available option to avoid deaths.
Chances are it is now or never to break the Russian shackles of modern history-to have come this far and then be forced to defend themselves it is not as if they can exactly just pack up and go home!
Any withdrawal will see further encroachment by Russia into Ukraine--it is clear enough now that Putin will destroy Ukraine rather than see it a successful democracy and it leaves Ukrainians with no choice but to fight.
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Ignoring you attempt at imitation of FT( in attributing something or a conclusion not being said) and dealing with the bigger picture of your question-it is not an available option to avoid deaths.
Chances are it is now or never to break the Russian shackles of modern history-to have come this far and then be forced to defend themselves it is not as if they can exactly just pack up and go home!
Any withdrawal will see further encroachment by Russia into Ukraine--it is clear enough now that Putin will destroy Ukraine rather than see it a successful democracy and it leaves Ukrainians with no choice but to fight.
Jay, you really have no fcuking clue about what you are talking about, don't you?
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Jay, you really have no fcuking clue about what you are talking about, don't you?
Given that comment is coming from you--the glasshouse you inhabit ought to know better by now.
Would you like to attempt to explain what you object to?Or is that too hard for you?
It is long overdue that you grow up with your abusive posts-not just to me-- but to any comment that you choose to abuse.
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So basically you want the war to keep going and more people killed.
Ok--so let us deal with inane comment itself and your attempt to attribute something not said.
Where exactly did I say that?
Given that my comment you quoted said virtually the opposite-- how does your brain reach such a distorted conclusion from my comments?
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Given that comment is coming from you--the glasshouse you inhabit ought to know better by now.
Would you like to attempt to explain what you object to?Or is that too hard for you?
It is long overdue that you grow up with your abusive posts-not just to me-- but to any comment that you choose to abuse.
Okay Junior. Or is it Jay Jay?
How do you propose you would "expel" all Russians from Ukraine?
BTW, I'm sorry you have such a fragile ego. If it gets too hot, then, by all means get out of the kitchen. ;)
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How do you propose you would "expel" all Russians from Ukraine?
For the minute -let us deal with what you said--and your response here--
So basically you want the war to keep going and more people killed.
Then this-
Jay,
And now your response --is this to support your earlier comments?
"How do you propose you would "expel" all Russians from Ukraine?"
So-- really-- you have no clue or idea how you reached such a conclusion from what I said-- or perhaps I can say it another way for you--"you really have no fcuking clue about what you are talking about, don't you?"
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Heh, running in circles aren't you?
One more time, how do you propose to expel all Russians from Ukraine?
You know, a simple answer, like "exterminate them all," or "dump them in the Black Sea," or nuke Russia."
C'mon, a simple answer will suffice.
It is not that difficult for a man who is so prolific here.
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It is long overdue that you grow up with your abusive posts-not just to me-- but to any comment that you choose to abuse.
...especially yours...
hypocrite. :welcome: [size=78%] [/size]
Fathertime!
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Heh, running in circles aren't you?
One more time, how do you propose to expel all Russians from Ukraine?
You know, a simple answer, like "exterminate them all," or "dump them in the Black Sea," or nuke Russia."
C'mon, a simple answer will suffice.
It is not that difficult for a man who is so prolific here.
Let me show your question the respect that you have failed to give mine--
Implicit in my answer above( and confining my answer to only what was said above)-- and joing the dots just for you--
The practicalities of reaching any agreement that removes Russia from Ukraine mean that everything is negotiable as such-- I would agree today to not join NATO if it meant the removal of Russians from ALL of Ukraine-- and the end of attempts to destabilise Ukraine.
.
The highlighted part is the key to my comment--it means conceding something to get peace-- Nothing to do with sacrificing lives as you attempt to attribute my words to mean.
In fact--it is diametrically opposed to your conclusion- ie--negotiate to avoid deaths.
So really Muzh--stick to playing with the FT's and Lt's of this world.
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One more time, how do you propose to expel all Russians from Ukraine?
I have commented many times previously--how I would and what is happening are different questions.
My attitude is a matter of record on the forum.
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I have commented many times previously--how I would and what is happening are different questions.
My attitude is a matter of record on the forum.
Heh, your red highlighter is running out of ink.
Still, it hasn't changed anything nor answered my question.
Fine, let me help you.
...if it meant the removal of Russians from all Ukraine.
If Ukraine voted to never join NATO, how would you remove Russians from all of Ukraine?
Like a deportation program?
Or a final solution?
A simple answer would suffice.
Notice that I'm NOT hurling insults. Just asking for your expertise. ;)
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Heh, your red highlighter is running out of ink.
Still, it hasn't changed anything nor answered my question.
Fine, let me help you.
...if it meant the removal of Russians from all Ukraine.
If Ukraine voted to never join NATO, how would you remove Russians from all of Ukraine?
Like a deportation program?
Or a final solution?
A simple answer would suffice.
Notice that I'm NOT hurling insults. Just asking for your expertise. ;)
Ahh-- I see your problem--you need each dot joined !
If--If- IF-that is-- if-- PART OF THE AGREEMENT WAS NOT JOINING NATO was going to rid Ukraine of Russians-then I would agree.That is what I said above-- maybe you read it another way?
As for how to get them out other than for them to voluntarily agree to leave as part of a settlement-- that is another topic- and I have answered that question numerous times previously- and my comments still apply.
To be clear- I would not agree to any permanent settlement that did not recognise Ukrainian sovereignty over it's borders and/or diluted Ukraine in any way. I make that comment in the context of the concept of conceding territory in the east-and/or Crimea in the hope that it will appease Putin's Russia and leave Ukraine in peace. My view-anything less than restoration of Ukrainian borders will not be a lasting peace-- but a postponement of Russian ambitions.
More dots to join- when I used the word Russia and Russians--I mean Russian military- maybe you misunderstood that?
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Ahh-- I see your problem--you need each dot joined !
If--If- IF-that is-- if-- PART OF THE AGREEMENT WAS NOT JOINING NATO was going to rid Ukraine of Russians-then I would agree.That is what I said above-- maybe you read it another way?
As for how to get them out other than for them to voluntarily agree to leave as part of a settlement-- that is another topic- and I have answered that question numerous times previously- and my comments still apply.
To be clear- I would not agree to any permanent settlement that did not recognise Ukrainian sovereignty over it's borders and/or diluted Ukraine in any way. I make that comment in the context of the concept of conceding territory in the east-and/or Crimea in the hope that it will appease Putin's Russia and leave Ukraine in peace. My view-anything less than restoration of Ukrainian borders will not be a lasting peace-- but a postponement of Russian ambitions.
More dots to join- when I used the word Russia and Russians--I mean Russian military- maybe you misunderstood that?
Didn't missed a beat.
First, you can have the right to agree with anything regarding a permanent settlement WHEN you live in Ukraine as a Ukrainian citizen or tied to it by marriage and living there.
NOW, you can WISH for anything regarding a permanent settlement in Ukraine all you want.
Unless you are a spook with orders to carry.
Are the dots connected for you now?
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I make that comment in the context of the concept of conceding territory in the east-and/or Crimea in the hope that it will appease Putin's Russia and leave Ukraine in peace.
Hmmmmmm.....when I was speaking along the same lines a year ago, YOU had a freaking cow and wanted to continue the fight until the last Ukrainian was dead.
This sort of end result wasn't that unpredictable, negotiating a settlement has been within reach...imo
Fathertime!
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Hmmmmmm.....when I was speaking along the same lines a year ago, YOU had a freaking cow and wanted to continue the fight until the last Ukrainian was dead.
This sort of end result wasn't that unpredictable, negotiating a settlement has been within reach...imo
Fathertime!
My, how time flies. ;)
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More evidence that the useful idiots were duped. I don't anticipate they will acknowledge this.
A year after the war started in southeastern Ukraine, the Russian military has largely abandoned efforts to disguise its activities along the border with Ukraine. The tiny village of Golovinka, an hour or so’s drive off the main highway on rutted dirt roads, has been transformed lately into a hive of military activity. The once-quiet military base nearby, Kuzminka, is teeming with soldiers and heavy weapons.
Last year, the Russian Defense Ministry described the military buildup along the border as a military exercise, and it periodically announced pullbacks after exercises were completed. However, the large army presence, which cannot easily be disguised, seems now to have become permanent.
Ukrainian and Western governments say Kuzminka is a staging ground for Russian soldiers and weapons headed into the war zone in southeastern Ukraine, where Kiev says 9,000 Russian soldiers are now stationed for a possible attack this summer on the city of Mariupol.
The United States has released satellite images of self-propelled howitzers on one side of the border, and then on the other, and European monitors say they see nightly evidence of heavy weapons streaming into southeastern Ukraine from Russia.
Why the Russian Army was stockpiling ammunition near the Ukrainian border was not a question the Kremlin or local commanders wished to address. Russia denies sending either men or weapons into Ukraine, claiming that any Russians there are private citizens volunteering to fight in the war.
On this occasion, the army’s presence became so pronounced it could be seen from outer space.
An enormous smoke plume rose over the steppe, according to a video posted online. Villagers piled children into cars and sped away. At the base, commanders ordered the thousands of soldiers garrisoned there to just run, saying, “We will find you later,” according to Viktoria Makarenko, a reporter with Novaya Gazeta who covered the blast.
“They thought the whole thing would blow,” Ms. Makarenko said of the army’s decision not to try to keep the blast on April 28 a secret. “It would be visible from space, so there was nothing to hide. They wanted to get the people out.”
In the steppe villages around here, known by their Cossack name stanitsy, residents are learning to live with the military presence, not to speak of the constant rumble of military convoys down side roads near the border.
Arrests are up for drunkenness and fighting in the border villages. There have even been reports of rocket-propelled grenades fired in bars. Reported crime in the Rostov region adjacent to Ukraine’s separatist zones is up 24 percent this year, local news media has reported, in a sign of blowback inside Russia from the chaos next door. . .
Local residents say tens of thousands of soldiers are now garrisoned at Kuzminka, sleeping in tents. For the village, their presence has its upsides, too.
A cluster of young soldiers, lithe and fit and shirtless in the summer afternoon, loitered beside a recently opened grilled chicken shack called Brotherly.
The owner, Vladimir, who would not give his last name owing to the sensitivity of discussing the soldiers in the village, said he opened a month ago and attributed his success selling rotisserie broiled birds marinated in mayonnaise and paprika to the first rule of real estate: location, location, location.
Brotherly opened beside the path through the fields that soldiers traverse to reach the village. In just a few minutes on a recent visit, a dozen or so soldiers with Mongolian features typical of some Siberian ethnic groups walked past. Soldiers with Mongolian features have also been seen fighting on the rebel side in eastern Ukraine. In typical times, few, if any, Mongolians are seen on either side of this border.
The border, until last summer patrolled by Ukrainian border guards, is porous, not only allowing Russian military convoys to cross without interference, but opening the way to large-scale smuggling of coal, weapons and stolen cars. As many as a dozen coal trucks cross the border here a day, said Paul Picard, a French diplomat who heads the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe’s monitoring mission in the area.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/20/world/europe/russian-town-near-ukraine-once-quiet-now-buzzes-with-military-activity.html?_r=4
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...Meanwhile, in other news it looks like the Russians are employing their own GPS system to navigate the back roads of Ukraine again... :rolleyes:
Ukraine Detains Alleged Russian Officer In East
..."Ukraine's border-guards service says it has detained a Russian officer who was driving in a military truck packed with ammunition in the country's war-torn east.
The service said in a statement that the man acknowledged he was a Russian major in a rocket-artillery unit.
"He had no documents," said border guards spokesman Oleksandr Tomchyshyn. "He is responsible for ammunition supply. He said that while delivering the ammunition they had got lost."...
..."The border-guards service said it found nearly 200 cases containing grenades and ammunition, including rocket-propelled shells, in the truck.
The vehicle was stopped about 45 kilometers southwest of Donetsk, the largest city in eastern Ukraine under rebel control.
It was reportedly driving from the direction of Olenivka, a town also held by the separatists, and halted only after Ukrainian border guards fired warning shots.
"We can assume that they took a wrong direction while driving, got lost and came on our checkpoint," military spokesman Oleksandr Motuzyanuk told journalists.
There was no immediate comment from the Russian military."...
(http://gdb.rferl.org/C39F4B29-90B5-4CB2-BD00-BED111C5FBD9_mw1024_s_n.jpg)
http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-detains-alleged-russian-officer-truck-weapons/27153552.html
...'Wrong Way' Boris is probably kicking his a$$ he didn't take that left turn at Krasnyi Luch.
Brass
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...'Wrong Way' Boris is probably kicking his a$$ he didn't take that left turn at Krasnyi Luch.
Brass
http://youtu.be/e8TUwHTfOOU
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Translation of an interview on Ukrainian television with a Russian political analyst
http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/07/22/putin-intends-to-destroy-ukraine-from-within-russian-analyst/ (http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/07/22/putin-intends-to-destroy-ukraine-from-within-russian-analyst/)
From the interview -
Here this is completely a question of time: who will die first. Perhaps the game of delaying will lead to a situation where Kremlin will be depleting its strategic resources in the confrontation with the West?]
I agree that time is on the side of Ukraine. Because Putin has already suffered several major strategic, political, and psychological defeats. First, the concept of the “Russian World” that he proclaimed in his Crimean speech, which was an exact copy of Hitler’s speech before the Reichstag after the occupation of Sudetenland. This is the concept of the separated people, the gathering of ancestral lands, and the protection of compatriots. Well, this concept has failed. It was based on the assumption that the West would be intimidated but would not fight back. Then came Novorossiya. In April-May Putin really wanted to raise the bar and send commandos to 10-15 oblasts of Ukraine. This fell through as well. What remains is the Luhandonia concept. Moscow understands that, despite the demonstrative build-up of military forces, everyone understands that direct military escalation — advancing on Mariupol or creating a corridor to the Crimean isthmus — will provoke a very tough Western reaction. This has been clearly stated by the Europeans. Therefore, there is the remaining chance to politically and psychologically outmaneuver them over the interpretation of the Minsk agreements. . .
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...Meanwhile, in other news it looks like the Russians are employing their own GPS system to navigate the back roads of Ukraine again... :rolleyes:
Ukraine Detains Alleged Russian Officer In East
..."Ukraine's border-guards service says it has detained a Russian officer who was driving in a military truck packed with ammunition in the country's war-torn east.
The service said in a statement that the man acknowledged he was a Russian major in a rocket-artillery unit.
"He had no documents," said border guards spokesman Oleksandr Tomchyshyn. "He is responsible for ammunition supply. He said that while delivering the ammunition they had got lost."...
..."The border-guards service said it found nearly 200 cases containing grenades and ammunition, including rocket-propelled shells, in the truck.
The vehicle was stopped about 45 kilometers southwest of Donetsk, the largest city in eastern Ukraine under rebel control.
It was reportedly driving from the direction of Olenivka, a town also held by the separatists, and halted only after Ukrainian border guards fired warning shots.
"We can assume that they took a wrong direction while driving, got lost and came on our checkpoint," military spokesman Oleksandr Motuzyanuk told journalists.
There was no immediate comment from the Russian military."...
(http://gdb.rferl.org/C39F4B29-90B5-4CB2-BD00-BED111C5FBD9_mw1024_s_n.jpg)
http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-detains-alleged-russian-officer-truck-weapons/27153552.html
...'Wrong Way' Boris is probably kicking his a$$ he didn't take that left turn at Krasnyi Luch.
Brass
Something doesn't smell right...
A rank of Major escorting a munitions delivery?
How does things work in the Russkies military, do Field Marshals personally perform the morning roll calls?
It will be comical irony if the Ukrainian government returns these captured munitions to those terrorists scum via the barrel of artillery guns. :popcorn:
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sleepy cat ..Something doesn't smell right...
given the unorthodox & chaotic nature of the hybrid war putin is engaged in ukriane anything is possible
this bloke may have just been taking the ride as an extra across the border to swap with another commander and they got lost as described , ending up at the checkpoint
easily done in the semi rural landscape without a proper gps if your not a local
given they thought they where in seperatist territory the truck really did not need an escort anyway
i mean who realsitically would fcuk with putins supply convoys in the donbass ?
do so at your own peril i would think ;)
SX
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...given they thought they where in seperatist territory the truck really did not need an escort anyway
You mean they never saw the sign pointing to Novorossiya - BACK down the road they were on? The current front line in that direction is only about 12 km from Donetsk - how could they possibly go another 30 km without realising that all the flags around were blue and yellow? 8)
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You mean they never saw the sign pointing to Novorossiya - BACK down the road they were on? The current front line in that direction is only about 12 km from Donetsk - how could they possibly go another 30 km without realising that all the flags around were blue and yellow? 8)
no i mean when the truck left the russian border and crossed over into rebel held territory of ukraine it was only one truck and highly possible it did not need an escort to get to it destination with the donetsk rebel held area given it was considered under their control
they then got lost , this is a war zone , it is entirely possible they did lose their bearings in a rural setting they where unfamiliar with especially if they where sent out to a smaller military position close to the fighting zone
quite humanly possible of fcucking up the delivery and making a wrong turn , ending up at a check point imo
SX
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no i mean when the truck left the russian border and crossed over into rebel held territory of ukraine it was only one truck and highly possible it did not need an escort to get to it destination with the donetsk rebel held area given it was considered under their control
they then got lost , this is a war zone , it is entirely possible they did lose their bearings in a rural setting they where unfamiliar with especially if they where sent out to a smaller military position close to the fighting zone
quite humanly possible of fcucking up the delivery and making a wrong turn , ending up at a check point imo
SX
I know what you're saying, but it sounds awfully close to sympathising with the poor driver for the lousy quality of his GPS unit! :o :D
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I know what you're saying, but it sounds awfully close to sympathising with the poor driver for the lousy quality of his GPS unit! :o :D
AK thats if he had a gps unit , ;D also possible he did not have one , im sure you have seen how the people their can improvise with shite that makes you look and just shake your head sometimes ,
being sent out to deliver a single truck load of ammo on rural country back roads with little to no markings if its not your local area, easy to see how it could happen
truth is often stranger than fiction ;D
sympathise with him, nah no where near that mate ,
however id not hate him either , at the end of the day these are humans on oppsoite sides of a conflict , fears sets in and can overtake all good common sense like we know it here
the russian side is being fed nationalistic BS , most people will often blindly follow the authoritys and do what their told even if they may think opposite and in russia/ukraine my experience is often people will just follow the party line and not rock the boat at all , especially if their paid , and the gov tells them to do it !!
with all my dealings with AUTHORITY [visa, embassys , customs , police etc ] there and here especially IMMI , my wife was dead against any form of questioning and quizzing , she thought of it as a provocation that would get you into deep Stuff , the general mentality is just dont do it ,
i still think what putins russia is doing is totally wrong , however how people are behaving under his regime is somwhat understandable to me as well
SX
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Something doesn't smell right...
A rank of Major escorting a munitions delivery?
How does things work in the Russkies military, do Field Marshals personally perform the morning roll calls?
It will be comical irony if the Ukrainian government returns these captured munitions to those terrorists scum via the barrel of artillery guns. :popcorn:
Smell right? - Yeah, I initially raised an eyebrow as well but looking at the reporting the article appears to be legit...
Another suspected Russian soldier was caught with a truck full of ammunition in Ukraine
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/r-ukraine-detains-another-suspected-russian-soldier-in-east-2015-7#ixzz3hCfRGfFw
(http://static5.businessinsider.com/image/55b50aab371d2232008b9bd7-1316-785/weapons.png)
A better image of the seized ordnance.
What the Ukrainian military needs to understand is that they must process these seizures as if it were a crime scene.
Meaning not just close in pics of cargo but detailed processing of documentation (vehicle, personal, invoices, etc.), the vehicle registration, manufacturing marks, uniforms, maps, electronics (GPS systems if present) etc.
They are entirely too casual with these incidents. Handled properly it's these very seizures that would provide conclusive evidence as to Russia's involvement.
The rank - Actually, having worked with/alongside the Russians, it's not unusual to see what we'd consider to be misemployment of rank. Keep in mind they'd just lost a similar shipment a couple of days prior and if 'Wrong Way' Boris had been the battalion/company CQ/Supply guy, he may have wanted/been ordered to ensure delivery this time. Or as one of the guys mentioned he may have simply hitched a ride or was been transferred to a forward unit/taking the lay of the land.
Return to sender - I hope they don't. It should be sealed and held as evidence for the war crimes tribunals that are sure to follow Putin's downfall or defeat in Ukraine.
Brass
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Sorry this is a bit off topic
:offtopic:
Russian neo-Nazi Ilya Goryachev was jailed for life for a string of hate killings in Russia
read all about it here
http://www.news.com.au/world/europe/russian-neo-nazi-ilya-goryachev-was-jailed-for-life-for-a-string-of-hate-killings-in-russia/story-fnh81p7g-1227460970542
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Russian 'Miss Charming' Loses Title After Being Exposed as Neo-Nazi
(http://www.dailystormer.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/STdrfq2.jpg)
(http://d5pa5brvrabv4.cloudfront.net/sites/default/files/styles/full_node/public/olga_kuzkova_4.jpg?itok=kxRtbMsB)
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/07/24/10/2ACCA2C300000578-3172346-image-m-38_1437731230841.jpg)
After a series of vitriolic social media postings exposed the Russian Football Premier League's newly crowned “Miss Charming” as a racist and dedicated neo-Nazi, organizers of the Miss Premier League competition stripped her of her title, Russian media reported Tuesday.
Every year, each of Russia's 16 football clubs picks one girl from a pool of attractive
female fans to represent them in the Miss Premier League pageant. Their selections
then compete against one another for the over-all title.
This year, CSKA Moscow picked 21-year-old Olga Kuzkova to be their team's queen.
Though she fell short of the grand prize, Kuzkova was declared the most charming
of her peers.
read about it here
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russian-miss-charming-loses-title-after-being-exposed-as-neo-nazi/525936.html
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BEAUTIFUL GIRL but she is emblematic of the pervasiveness of racism among the Russian soccer community.
Even when they play against Polish and other predominately "white" teams, the Russian nationalist thugs are very active in the stands
and on the grounds, beating anyone who isnt a fan...
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Article on the lack of religious tolerance in Russian backed DPR/LNR. From the beginning, Protestants were tortured and shot. What those pro Russian lumpenproletariats and their useful idiots don't know is that large swathes of that region were always historically Protestant, largely Baptist and Lutheran.
http://ukrainianweek.com/Society/141758
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Ukraine Russia Conflict: Ukrainians Getting Lethal Weapons From Poland And Italy, Pro-Russian Rebels Claim
"The Ukrainian military have been using mortar, anti-personnel and anti-tank mines made in Italy and Poland"
http://www.infowars.com/ukraine-russia-conflict-ukrainians-getting-lethal-weapons-from-poland-and-italy-pro-russian-rebels-claim/
(http://hw.infowars.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/ukraine-war.jpg) (http://www.infowars.com/ukraine-russia-conflict-ukrainians-getting-lethal-weapons-from-poland-and-italy-pro-russian-rebels-claim/)
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Ukraine Russia Conflict: Ukrainians Getting Lethal Weapons From Poland And Italy, Pro-Russian Rebels Claim
"The Ukrainian military have been using mortar, anti-personnel and anti-tank mines made in Italy and Poland"
http://www.infowars.com/ukraine-russia-conflict-ukrainians-getting-lethal-weapons-from-poland-and-italy-pro-russian-rebels-claim/
Oh, dear, what a shame! Whatever will those perfidious Ukrainians think of next?
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Maybe Poland and Italy can balance the ledger up by exporting prosthetic limbs to those silly pro-putinists. :popcorn:
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"The Ukrainian military have been using mortar, anti-personnel and anti-tank mines made in Italy and Poland"
Must be old stuff from who knows where ::). Valsella - since 1984 a company of the FIAT group - used to be a major producer of mines, until:
Valsella ceased production of mines in 1994 due to the Italian Government's moratorium on production of anti-personnel mines.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valsella_Meccanotecnica
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Ukraine Russia Conflict: Ukrainians Getting Lethal Weapons From Poland And Italy, Pro-Russian Rebels Claim
"The Ukrainian military have been using mortar, anti-personnel and anti-tank mines made in Italy and Poland"
http://www.infowars.com/ukraine-russia-conflict-ukrainians-getting-lethal-weapons-from-poland-and-italy-pro-russian-rebels-claim/ (http://www.infowars.com/ukraine-russia-conflict-ukrainians-getting-lethal-weapons-from-poland-and-italy-pro-russian-rebels-claim/)
(http://hw.infowars.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/ukraine-war.jpg) (http://www.infowars.com/ukraine-russia-conflict-ukrainians-getting-lethal-weapons-from-poland-and-italy-pro-russian-rebels-claim/)
tfc, you pretty much lose the moral or intelligent high ground when you quote an Alex Jone's website (infowars.com). Alex Jone's and his ilk are batsh*t crazy and see boogey men around every corner. They are conspiracy nuts. Just read the comments on this article. Wow.
I spent about a year listening to Alex everyday. Just to get a different view. They are complete wack jobs. Interesting to see they are now Pro-Putin as well. Putin, that that great proponent of Liberty!
HDL
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I believe that they were among the sites supposedly seeing helicopters swirling above the Kremlin, large semi trucks parked just off Red Square, and soldiers deployed on street corners during the time of Putin's brief disappearance some time back.
Someone in that network contacted and asked me to supply photos/videos of the aforementioned. The only problem was that except for the large semi trucks that had brought in staging equipment for the then-upcoming Day of Russia event, there were no helicopters swirling above the Kremlin, nor had troops been deployed on the streets.
I politely pointed out that the Kremlin and Red Square area constitutes a "no fly" zone except for president/prime minister helicopter transports, explained the purpose of the trucks, and supplied numerous webcam sites to prove that there was no general troop deployments on the streets of Moscow.
The contact was disappointed, and hinted that perhaps I was part of the great Washington/CIA/NATO/West conspiracy that somehow was surely responsible for Mr Putin's whereabouts. Sure thing. I am also Santa Claus, Grandfather Frost, the Tooth Fairy, and Richard Nixon reincarnated. ;D
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I believe that they were among the sites supposedly seeing helicopters swirling above the Kremlin, large semi trucks parked just off Red Square, and soldiers deployed on street corners during the time of Putin's brief disappearance some time back.
Someone in that network contacted and asked me to supply photos/videos of the aforementioned. The only problem was that except for the large semi trucks that had brought in staging equipment for the then-upcoming Day of Russia event, there were no helicopters swirling above the Kremlin, nor had troops been deployed on the streets.
I politely pointed out that the Kremlin and Red Square area constitutes a "no fly" zone except for president/prime minister helicopter transports, explained the purpose of the trucks, and supplied numerous webcam sites to prove that there was no general troop deployments on the streets of Moscow.
The contact was disappointed, and hinted that perhaps I was part of the great Washington/CIA/NATO/West conspiracy that somehow was surely responsible for Mr Putin's whereabouts. Sure thing. I am also Santa Claus, Grandfather Frost, the Tooth Fairy, and Richard Nixon reincarnated. ;D
That is hilarious. If you don't buy into their lunacy, you are part of the conspiracy.
Remember these are the folks that claim the WTC was brought down with demolition charges. I image the workers in the building seeing men putting charges in the walls in the weeks leading up to 9/11 not saying anything or question such activity. They are complete loons. Better your good name was not associated with them.
HDL
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The disturbing tolerated trend in Russia.
White supremacist gathering underscores Russia's nationalist trend
The protesters, several thousand strong and surrounded by hundreds of armed police, chanted nationalist slogans and racial slurs, occasionally raising their right hands in a Nazi salute.
It was the 10th annual gathering of white supremacists, neo-Nazis and far-right nationalists, held in Moscow in November.
"Nationalism has a bright future in Russia," said co-organizer Dmitri Demushkin, 36, a former skinhead and ex-leader of the Slavic Union, a banned group whose Russian initials, SS, intentionally mimic those of the Nazi paramilitaries. "We will either win or the Russian people will die."
The very existence of homebred neo-Nazis and racists, made graphically clear each year in what is known as the Russian March, is still shocking to many in Russia, a multiethnic country that once professed to be building an internationalist, communist utopia and still prides itself on the victory over Nazi Germany in World War II.
la-fg-russia-neo-nazi
Dmitri Demushkin is one of the organizers of the Russian March, the annual showdown of white supremacists, neo-Nazis and far-right nationalists held in Moscow and Russia's largest cities in early November. (Mansur Mirovalev / For The Times)
Yet Russia's far right isn't limited to a few marginal figures. It is a vortex of militant gangs, movements and political parties that enlist tens of thousands of members who are also among those most loudly applauding President Vladimir Putin and his strong-arm policies against Ukraine and other former Soviet republics.
The Kremlin cracked down on right-wing radicals who emerged after the 1991 Soviet collapse and mushroomed in the 2000s in response to Islamist terrorism attacks and the influx of millions of migrants from Central Asia and Russia's mostly Muslim Caucasus region, where two wars in Chechnya fueled racism and unrest.
In 2006, a neo-Nazi group organized seven bombings across Moscow, one of which killed 14 people at an outdoor market, including two children. Most of the victims were foreign labor migrants.
At the peak of racially motivated violence in 2008, at least 110 people were killed and 487 wounded, according to Sova, a Moscow-based hate crimes watchdog organization.
Such crimes have declined sharply since a crackdown on ultranationalists began about five years ago. In the first half of this year, four people died and 37 were wounded in racial violence, Sova reports.
But even as the Kremlin sought to rein in the violent right, it also incorporated elements of the nationalist agenda as part of its anti-Western and isolationist ideology that praises the "unique Russian civilization" devoid of "decadent" liberalism.
Officially tolerated expressions of racism such as the Russian March have nurtured the growing xenophobia and intolerance gripping Russia today. Some 54% of Russians support the idea of "Russia for ethnic Russians," and more than a third would welcome the expulsion of Caucasus and Central Asian Muslims, according to the latest poll on the matter, a July 2014 survey by the independent Levada Center.
http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-russia-neonazi-20150822-story.html
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Putin fears competition, opposition and any cry of dissent. In pursuit of absolute power, he is suffocating his own society.
Vladimir Putin is suffocating his own nation
IN THE tumult and uncertainty that marked Russia after the Soviet Union imploded, when the state was weak and many institutions tottering, a vital lifeline was extended from the West. The U.S. government, as well as foundations and philanthropies, responded generously. The financier George Soros, through his Open Society Foundations, provided small grants that sustained many impoverished scientists. The MacArthur Foundation and the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) were vital sources of support to civil society, education and human rights.
Now, President Vladimir Putin is forcing these organizations out of Russia, using law enforcement and a parliament that he controls. Mr. Putin’s larger target is to destroy civil society, that vital two-way link in any democracy between the rulers and the ruled. The latest move, announced Tuesday, is to declare the NED an “undesirable” organization under the terms of a law that Mr. Putin signed in May. The law bans groups from abroad who are deemed a “threat to the foundations of the constitutional system of the Russian Federation, its defense capabilities and its national security.”
The charge against the NED is patently ridiculous. The NED’s grantees in Russia last year ran the gamut of civil society. They advocated transparency in public affairs, fought corruption and promoted human rights, freedom of information and freedom of association, among other things. All these activities make for a healthy democracy but are seen as threatening from the Kremlin’s ramparts.
The new law on “undesirables” comes in addition to one signed in 2012 that gave authorities the power to declare organizations “foreign agents” if they engaged in any kind of politics and receive money from abroad. The designation, from the Stalin era, implies espionage. While the NED is the first organization to be labeled “undesirable,” on July 5, the Dynasty Foundation, which had provided millions of dollars for science and education in Russia, reported that it was closing after being labeled a “foreign agent.”
Others are feeling the chill. On July 24, the Charles Stewart Mott Foundation of Flint, Mich., an independent, private philanthropy that had supported community education in Russia and contributed more than $25 million since the early 1990s, announced that it would no longer support organizations in Russia. The Federation Council, Russia’s upper house of parliament, had put the foundation on a list of potentially undesirable organizations that was submitted to authorities. On July 21, the MacArthur Foundation, which had provided more than $173 million in grants in Russia since 1992 to further higher education, advance human rights and combat nuclear proliferation, said that it was closing its office in Moscow. MacArthur had also been put on parliament’s hit list.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/vladimir-putin-is-suffocating-his-own-nation/2015/07/28/3b27ae8e-3562-11e5-adf6-7227f3b7b338_story.html
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Says it all-- still people posting on this forum that seem clueless about Russia's retrograde criminal intent-time to read!
Russia's truncheon
By Editorial Board August 30 at 7:54 PM
WHEN VLADIMIR Putin first became Russian president, a decade and a half ago, he promised to bring about what he called “dictatorship of the law.” It is an awkward phrase, but the meaning was clear: to bring order out of the tumultuous decade of the 1990s, for the law to reign supreme.
Mr. Putin supervised the rewriting and modernization of many obsolete laws from the Soviet years. But as he turned more authoritarian, the law became just a tool. Mr. Putin followed a long line of predecessors in the Kremlin who have used the police and courts to punish their enemies and stifle dissenting views. Today, this is one of the profound failings of Mr. Putin’s rule — establishing the rule of law is a distant dream.
The latest example was the sentencing in a Russian military court on Aug. 25 of Oleg Sentsov, a 39-year-old filmmaker, to 20 years in a prison camp after conviction on charges of terrorism in the Crimean Peninsula. Mr. Sentsov was active in protests against Viktor Yanukovych , the Russian-backed president of Ukraine, who abandoned his office in the face of widespread demonstrations last year. Russia seized Crimea from Ukraine soon after.
Mr. Sentsov pleaded not guilty to charges by the Russian prosecutors of creating a radical nationalist group in Crimea and setting fire to the offices of pro-Kremlin organizations. Another Crimea activist, Alexander Kolchenko , an ecologist, was sentenced to 10 years as an accomplice. The trial was marked by irregularities; the main prosecution witness recanted in the courtroom and said his evidence had been extracted under duress. Mr. Sentsov said he had been pressed to confess but refused. “I am not going to beg for leniency,” he declared. “Everything is already clear. A court of occupiers cannot be just, by definition.” After the presiding judge read out the sentence and asked Mr. Sentsov and Mr. Kolchenko if they understood, the two men, standing in a glass defendants’ cage, started singing Ukraine’s national anthem, as many did during the protests against the president last year.
The harsh sentences were clearly political, aimed at sending a message to anyone who might oppose the seizure of Crimea. This use of the law as a weapon is hardly isolated. It was employed against the musicians in Pussy Riot, a punk rock band that staged a brief protest against Mr. Putin in Moscow’s central cathedral and were sent to jail. Others who challenged Mr. Putin have suffered the same fate. At the same time, Mr. Putin has signed new laws giving the authorities wide latitude to pressure or close down organizations such as those defending human rights or monitoring elections. These are just as pernicious as the prosecution of individuals who cross Mr. Putin.
They all reflect a sad truth that Russia has not achieved rule of law, but instead is ruled by the arbitrary power of a boss.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/russias-truncheon/2015/08/30/b9391dda-4dbd-11e5-84df-923b3ef1a64b_story.html
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International monitors say they have spotted a new kind of Russian weapons system in rebel-held Ukraine this week, possible evidence of Moscow's continued interest in Ukraine even as it focuses on Syria.
The Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, which is monitoring a ceasefire in eastern Ukraine, reported that its monitors had seen a mobile TOS-1 'Buratino' weapons system for the first time.
The Buratino is equipped with thermobaric warheads which spread a flammable liquid around a target and then ignite it. It can destroy several city blocks in one strike and cause indiscriminate damage.
Only Russia produces the system and it was not exported to Ukraine before the conflict broke out, according to IHS Jane's Group and the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, which track arms exports. . .
Russia denies its military is even in Ukraine. But there have been numerous signs that Moscow backed the rebels with troops and equipment. Reuters reporters spotted two burnt-out tanks last year which military experts identified as Russian army tanks in rebel-held territory.
Alexander Hug, deputy chief monitor of the OSCE monitoring mission to Ukraine, told Reuters by phone monitors had spotted the Buratino at a rebel training area in the village of Kruhlyk.
"We saw the weapon on that training ground," Hug said. "Both sides agreed a year ago to withdraw heavy weaponry from the line of contact. Having them near the line of contact is of course a concern as this weapon should be in storage and not be used."
Hug said the weapons system was "indiscriminate and very destructive." The Popular Mechanics website called TOS-1 "hell on earth" for anyone it targeted. . .
The Ukrainian defence ministry said on its website in March that the separatists had used seven TOS-1 Buratino systems and that one of them had been destroyed by its forces.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/02/ukraine-crisis-russia-idUSL5N1213U920151002
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No doubt the paid troll known as Belvis will find a way to spin this with disinformation.
:rolleyes:
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Interesting interview with a Russian soldier in this edition of UNIAN:
http://www.unian.info/war/1160486-russian-soldier-without-russian-army-donbas-militants-would-not-last-a-month.html
He details how Russian solders are sent on "training missions" into Eastern Ukraine. Solders call these "trips." They know that is captured they will be disavowed, but are promised that if killed they will come home in caskets and be buried inside Russia.
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They know that is captured they will be disavowed, but are promised that if killed they will come home in caskets and be buried inside Russia.
How consoling :-\, makes one want to volunteer ;).
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Interesting interview with a Russian soldier in this edition of UNIAN:
http://www.unian.info/war/1160486-russian-soldier-without-russian-army-donbas-militants-would-not-last-a-month.html
He details how Russian solders are sent on "training missions" into Eastern Ukraine. Solders call these "trips." They know that is captured they will be disavowed, but are promised that if killed they will come home in caskets and be buried inside Russia.
Like so many lies promoted by the Kremlin-- perhaps they could explain to all the relatives of the "disappeared" !
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The often repeated nonsense by the Kremlin and its puppets(( plus many of the forums fools) that it was not Russian army in Ukraine has now been completely and utterly proven a lie.Not exactly news to most here-- but significant is the admission.
the old addage that you need to have a good memory to lie effectively is proven here-- no one gave this guy the script !
Russia said to redeploy special-ops forces from Ukraine to Syria
Russia has sent a few dozen special-operations troops to Syria in recent weeks, Russian and Western officials say, redeploying the elite units from Ukraine as the Kremlin shifts its focus to supporting Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.
Russia in late September launched a campaign of airstrikes in support of Mr. Assad’s government, and President Vladimir Putin has said Russian troops won't play a role in ground combat. But Russian military experts and officials say small numbers of special-forces units—whose missions are rarely acknowledged publicly—are also on the ground in Syria.
“The special forces were pulled out of Ukraine and sent to Syria,“ a Russian Ministry of Defense official said, adding that they had been serving in territories in eastern Ukraine held by pro-Russia rebels. The official described them as “akin to a Delta Force,” the U.S. Army’s elite counterterrorism unit.
A senior Western official also said a contingent of elite Russian forces was on the ground in Syria from eastern Ukraine. A U.S. defense official said one of their roles is to provide coordination between Syrian troops and Russian aircraft conducting airstrikes in support of the regime’s ground offensive.
Russia’s Defense Ministry declined to comment on the claims. It has said that some of its military specialists are helping to advise and train Syrian government forces on the Russian-made hardware they are getting.
The Russian ministry official said the assets sent to Syria in recent weeks include the Zaslon unit, trained to protect diplomatic assets and personnel. Nearly two dozen Russian military-intelligence officers are also on site to liaise with Mr. Assad’s military intelligence, the official said.
Robert Lee, a visiting scholar at Moscow-based defense industry think tank CAST, said boots on the ground could also improve the accuracy of airstrikes. “The use of forward ground troops to draw fire from enemy positions makes the use of air power much more effective,” he said.
Moscow has a long-standing military relationship with Damascus, and some Russian special forces were present in Syria even before the air campaign began Sept. 30. Those were concentrated near Tartus where Russia has a naval installation.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/10/25/russia-said-to-redeploy-special-ops-forces-from-ukraine-to-syria/
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And in other news:
Donbass elections held. International observers not allowed to observe polling. Results: 105% of the people voted for the Russian backed separatist candidates for election.
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And in other news:
Donbass elections held. International observers not allowed to observe polling. Results: 105% of the people voted for the Russian backed separatist candidates for election.
Only 105%? :cluebat: Could they not get the other 30% out of bed on the day?? :devil:
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Only 105%? :cluebat: Could they not get the other 30% out of bed on the day?? :devil:
That was the day before the election that they got that result--it eased the pressure on the queues at polling stations--and saved people the trouble of going to vote. :) :)
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Not so current--but as relevant as ever today.
Fighting in the east has come to characterize Ukraine. But Ukraine’s struggle for survival and self-determination, free of corrupt governments and Russian influence is fought on many other fronts. From cyber defence to internal defence, fixing its forces to telling the truth – Ukraine faces challenges that may determine its very survival.
Patriotism continues to strengthen in Ukraine. This is required to fight all kinds of corruptions. The former pro-Russian elements were international in their corruption, not only in relationship to Russia but also Globalization issues. Ukraine currency was funneled through several European Union countries and a few outside Europe with much of it eventually going to Russia but most of it held by the pro-Russia oligarchy in Ukraine prior to the 2014 revolution. The 2014 EuroMaidan revolution in Kyiv ended the corrupt pro-Russia system with the hope of moving Ukraine to a closer relationship with all of Europe.
Ukraine: The Unseen Attacks - full documentary
http://toinformistoinfluence.com/2015/09/25/ukraine-the-unseen-attacks-full-documentary/\
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WNQ7W-D6Wc
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Interesting piece on life in Donetsk currently.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/11/world/europe/ukraine-frozen-zone-virtual-reality.html?_r=1
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Russian-separatist forces have been using children as young as 14 as front-line troops in their war against Ukraine in the Donbas – a war crime, German television reported on Nov. 10.
Reporters from the German channel ZDF’s Frontal21 news magazine said they had spoken to several child soldiers at a cadet school near Luhansk. One of the children, 16-year-old Bogdan Kravchenko, told them that he had been fighting for two years and had killed Ukrainian soldiers.
“I only killed fascists, not people. There are no people among the fascists,” Kravchenko told the German reporters, according to a press release from ZDF.
The United Nations defines a person as a child soldier if they are below the age of 18 and have been recruited “by an armed force or armed group in any capacity.”
Other children that Frontal21 spoke to described the mental trauma they had suffered due to the war. One, 16-year-old Yevgeny Shakunov, is seen in a photo shown during the report posing next to a dead Ukrainian soldier, cradling an assault rifle in his arms.
Another child soldier tracked down by Frontal21, 16-year-old Semyon Spektor, said he was in mourning for his girlfriend, Alexandra Kaplina, who was killed in action fighting for the Russian-separatists when she was only 15.
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv-post-plus/german-tv-report-russian-separatists-use-child-soldiers-in-front-line-combat-401845.html (http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv-post-plus/german-tv-report-russian-separatists-use-child-soldiers-in-front-line-combat-401845.html)
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OSCE observers have repeatedly reported about transportation of Ukrainian coal to Russia.
http://uatoday.tv/news/osce-monitors-witness-coal-taken-from-occupied-donbas-to-russia-531867.html
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Russia's ridiculous double sided paranoia is ongoing.
Putin's Cynicism Promotes Terrorism Against Ukraine
Failing on the Ukrainian Battlefield, Russia Turns to Terrorism
To understand how Russia conducts its foreign policy, simply look at what the Kremlin accuses everyone else of doing. Unlike the Soviet Union, which operated under a coherent ideology, the Russian government under President Vladimir Putin seems to believe that everybody is a cynical power player, and that the West is simply hypocritical about it. According to this view, Western support for Ukraine has nothing to do with standing up for the values of democracy and liberty, but rather is part of a geopolitical struggle aimed against Russia. Hence the belief that the Euromaid an was a "Western plot."
This view drives the Kremlin's actions. After all, if destabilizing countries through dirty methods like plots or even terrorism is something "everyone" does, then there's nothing strange about Russia doing it as well. Putin apologists in the West, such as New York University Professor Stephen F. Cohen, often argue that Russia is an important partner in the struggle against terrorism. Ukrainians probably feel otherwise. The separatist groups Moscow is supporting in the Donas would no doubt be labeled terrorists had they tried to separate from some Russian province.
But Russia's plot hasn't worked according to plan. The separatists only control a small part of Ukrainian territory, and Russia has paid a high price in the form of economic sanctions. But even though fighting seems to have died down in the Donbas and the Russian military has turned its attention to Syria, Putin certainly hasn't forgotten about Ukraine. The country is simply too important for that.
http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/failing-on-the-ukrainian-battlefield-russia-turns-to-terrorism
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Fresh Russian conscripts with telling tattoos.
(http://s4.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20151027&t=2&i=1090230980&w=976&fh=&fw=&ll=&pl=&sq=&r=2015-10-27T204603Z_19425_GF20000035060_RTRMADP_0_RUSSIA-MILITARY)
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Remarks by Ambassador Samantha Power, U.S. Permanent Representative to the United Nations, at a UN Security Council Meeting on the Situation in Ukraine
We are here because Russia continues to occupy Ukraine’s autonomous region of Crimea, in defiance of international law, in defiance of its treaty obligations, the Helsinki Final Act, and the resolution passed by 100 members of the UN General Assembly that rejected the phony Crimea referendum and that called for Ukraine’s territorial integrity to be respected. Its authorities there have opened criminal cases against critics of the occupation and specifically targeted the Tatar community, subjecting them to beatings, arbitrary detentions, and police raids.
http://ukraine.usembassy.gov/statements/power-12112015.html
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I detect a lot of 'because I can' in international politics on many sides, both international and domestic.
One must not forget that the UN, many treaties and even the US Constitution are simply guiding tools and not absolutes.. such contracts may be breached, interpreted otherwise or simply ignored.
It's the way it was, is and always be.
'because I can' is what really counts in the end.
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I detect a lot of 'because I can' in international politics on many sides, both international and domestic.
One must not forget that the UN, many treaties and even the US Constitution are simply guiding tools and not absolutes.. such contracts may be breached, interpreted otherwise or simply ignored.
It's the way it was, is and always be.
'because I can' is what really counts in the end.
Agree...and the US is very guilty of this, so to listen to us condemn others on moral grounds, raises an eyebrow to say the least.
Fathertime!
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BC, you are seriously wrong in one respect as the US Constitution is not merely a guide. Try actually reading it--there is the language of absolutes throughout the document, and detailed steps needed to change any of those absolutes.
You are right, however, when it comes to a serious overreach in foreign affairs. There is, as you say, much of "Because I can" in how things operate.
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NATO Nations No Longer Question Need for Alliance
By STEVEN ERLANGER New York Times
read all about it here
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/16/world/europe/nato-nations-no-longer-question-need-for-alliance.html
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Shelby uses Capitol Hill clout to end Russian rocket engine ban
and help Alabama workers
read about it here
http://www.al.com/news/huntsville/index.ssf/2015/12/shelby_uses_capitol_hill_clout.html
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War In Europe: Why The Army Is Worried
Loren Thompson Forbes
Ever since Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 and seized control of Crimea, Pentagon
planners have been trying to figure out how they could cope with further land grabs
by Moscow. Their greatest concern is that Russia will move on the three small Baltic
states of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania — the only former provinces of the Soviet
Union that have joined the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and that
other alliance members are therefore obligated to defend. Internal Pentagon
estimates suggest Russia’s military could occupy the Baltic states in 2-3 days
— well before NATO could organize a coherent response.
read all about it here
http://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthompson/2015/12/11/war-in-europe-why-the-army-is-worried/
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Poll: Most Russians want to see Ukraine independent
Third of respondents would like Ukraine to be under political and economic
control of Russia
read all about it here
http://uatoday.tv/news/poll-most-russians-want-to-see-ukraine-independent-553535.html
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Stick to Sanctions on Russia
New York Times Opinion By ANDREW FOXALL
read all about it here
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/17/opinion/stick-to-sanctions-on-russia.html
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Well-known Russian journalist Alexander centurion described the essence of the fascist regime, built by Putin in Russia nowadays.
Putin has created the worst form of fascism in Russia
http://www.amn.com.ua/blogy/putyn-sozdal-v-rossyy-nayhudshuyu-formu-fashyzma-rossyjskyj-zhurnalyst/
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The city Khartsyzsk Donetsk region, local residents beat Russian soldier, who drunk mined private yard and demanded a ransom for demining.
Residents beat Russian soldier who mined private yard -
"growing dissatisfaction of the population temporarily occupied areas of Donbas presence and actions of the Russian occupation troops. March 26 village Khartsyzsk soldier of the 7th separate motorized rifle brigade (Debaltseve) 2nd Army Corps (Lugansk) forces Russian sergeant Vladimir Putilin in a state of extreme intoxication
: http://www.unian/1301439-u-hartsizku-jiteli-pobili-rosiyskogo-soldata-yakiy-zaminuvav-privatniy-dvir-rozvidka.ht.ua/war/1301439-u-hartsizku-jiteli-pobili-rosiyskogo-soldata-yakiy-zaminuvav-privatniy-dvir-rozvidka.html
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Some writers have the ability to state clearly and not get issues confused-while this aricle was not written recently-- it has good summaries and explanations of much that is immediately current.
"Behind Russia’s confrontation with the West lies a clash of ideas. On one side are human rights, an accountable bureaucracy and democratic elections; on the other an unconstrained state that can sacrifice its citizens’ interests to further its destiny or satisfy its rulers’ greed."
From cold war to hot war
And more-
"Russia has taken to arguing that it is not fighting Ukraine, but America in Ukraine. The Ukrainian army is just a foreign legion of NATO, and American soldiers are killing Russian proxies in the Donbas. Anti-Americanism is not only the reason for war and the main pillar of state power, but also an ideology that Russia is trying to export to Europe, as it once exported communism."
http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21643220-russias-aggression-ukraine-part-broader-and-more-dangerous-confrontation
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Another article that is not far off the mark and worth reading-
Putin’s plan: ruin Europe before its sanctions kill Russia
The most effective way Putin’s regime can avoid collapse is by causing the EU to collapse sooner. An EU that is coming apart at the seams will not be able to maintain the sanctions it imposed on Russia following its incursion into Ukraine. On the contrary, Putin will be able to gain considerable economic benefits from dividing Europe and exploiting the connections with commercial interests and anti-European parties that he has carefully cultivated.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/putins-plan-ruin-europe-before-its-sanctions-kill-russia/news-story/10bf3360a4d86c21707ed176a63687b4?nk=8154d6d9438df91f32d7594ca712441a-1465029747
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/11/putin-threat-europe-islamic-state
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Some writers have the ability to state clearly and not get issues confused-while this aricle was not written recently-- it has good summaries and explanations of much that is immediately current.
"Behind Russia’s confrontation with the West lies a clash of ideas. On one side are human rights, an accountable bureaucracy and democratic elections; on the other an unconstrained state that can sacrifice its citizens’ interests to further its destiny or satisfy its rulers’ greed."
From cold war to hot war
And more-
"Russia has taken to arguing that it is not fighting Ukraine, but America in Ukraine. The Ukrainian army is just a foreign legion of NATO, and American soldiers are killing Russian proxies in the Donbas. Anti-Americanism is not only the reason for war and the main pillar of state power, but also an ideology that Russia is trying to export to Europe, as it once exported communism."
http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21643220-russias-aggression-ukraine-part-broader-and-more-dangerous-confrontation
Jay, that article was published well over a year ago, and I'm that I saw it posted on here at some earlier time.
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Jay, that article was published well over a year ago, and I'm that I saw it posted on here at some earlier time.
To state the obvious--the article was relevant then-- as it is now.Some are worth re-reading with the benefit of hindsight- especially so when observations of that time have proven to be correct.
I am not aware of it being previously posted.
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Even after considerable evidence has been documented( yes-here in many links)-there are still many that seem stuck in views long discredited . Some who are ambivelent-- still dont understand what has taken place-and why.
This article is another in the "must"read category/
Novaya Gazeta, a Russian newspaper part-owned by Kremlin critic Alexander Lebedev, on February 24 published an article on an alleged Kremlin policy paper it said had come into its possession. The policy paper, which the Novaya Gazeta said was written and circulating within the Kremlin for perhaps more than two weeks before the ouster of former Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych, details a response plan for Russia in the event of Yanukovych’s fall. As Novya Gazeta points out, the plan outlined bears a striking resemblance to the actions undertaken by Russia after Yanukovych left power.
Novaya Gazeta’s ‘Kremlin Papers’ article: Full text in English
The document we are publishing is interesting due to the fact that at the early stages of the Ukrainian political crisis - that is, before Yanukovych fled from Kyiv and the “Bandera Junta” came to power – [it appears] a rationale, as well as the political and PR logistics of Russia’s interference in Ukrainian affairs and the annexation of Crimea and Ukraine’s eastern regions had [already] been planned in detail, step by step. Although the actual scenario of Ukrainian drama has changed things a bit, this draft plan is still closely in line with the subsequent actions by Russia’s government, which is striking.
Read more on UNIAN: http://www.unian.info/politics/1048525-novaya-gazetas-kremlin-papers-article-full-text-in-english.html
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More evidence that the Russian invasion of Ukraine was a long held intention- and the circumstances opportunistic.
How Russia has prepared for aggression against Ukraine for 10 years. Instruments of hybrid war: diplomacy, media and culture
The events of 2014-2015 proved that this view is widely supported throughout Russian society. Even in January 2016, according to the results of opinion polls, 64% of Russians supported the aggression against Ukraine.
In the minds of the Kremlin leadership and much of the population, Russia is surrounded by enemies who want to capture Russian natural resources. The leading role in this “global conspiracy” is played by the West, led by the US. In order to survive, the Russian leadership believes in the absolute nessesity to regain control over the lost territories of the USSR and the “socialist camp”. The key objective is to recapture Ukraine, which should dramatically increase Russia’s demographic, political, economic, military and other resources. In the irrational worldview of the “Kremlin dreamers”, restoring control over Kyiv – “the mother of all cities”, capital and ancestral home of Eastern Slavic Orthodoxy – is a vital interest of Russia.
http://uaposition.com/analysis-opinion/russia-prepared-aggression-ukraine-10-years-instruments-hybrid-war-diplomacy-media-culture/
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In the irrational worldview of the “Kremlin dreamers”, restoring control over Kyiv – “the mother of all cities”, capital and ancestral home of Eastern Slavic Orthodoxy – is a vital interest of Russia.
Actually this probably is not irrational . . . even as it is illegal under international law and standards.
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An interview with Nils Muižnieks, Council of Europe Commissioner for Human Rights, on the situation of human rights in Donbas and Crimea -
http://ukrainianweek.com/Politics/170520h
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An interview with Nils Muižnieks, Council of Europe Commissioner for Human Rights, on the situation of human rights in Donbas and Crimea -
http://ukrainianweek.com/Politics/170520h
Sorry, Boe, but that link doesn't work. Delete the "h" on the end.
http://ukrainianweek.com/Politics/170520
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Kremlin propaganda tool mocking a blind soldier on a prisoner exchange -
http://youtu.be/IuTrYXoiDgk
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Motorola's mistress?
(http://napalm.natocdn.work/2016/10/Bez-imeni-2.jpg)
vk.com/id155612252
" Be always a choice, prioretety, cause ... .. but never becomes an option! "
http://informnapalm.org/28745-kiberalyans-motoroly/ (http://informnapalm.org/28745-kiberalyans-motoroly/)
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Not that this is exactly new news-- but it is interesting matter of record when the Russian miliatry involvement is confirmed by the same people who deny it!!
Militant's Minsk envoy openly admits Russia invaded Donbas
"In an interview with TV channel Luhansk 24, Vladislav Deinego, ‘Luhansk People's Republic's' official envoy to the Minsk talks, openly declared that Russia is fighting on the side of ‘LPR' militants. His statement fully negates testimonies by so-called ‘witnesses' who claim that a ‘civil war' is raging in Ukraine. On the one side, some people are trying to cover up for the aggressor state (Russia), while here on television, Mr. Deinego publicly states that Russia is actively participating in the war and supporting the separatist ‘state of Luhansk'," Kazansky wrote in the article for Euromaidan Press.
http://uatoday.tv/politics/suddenly-militant-s-minsk-envoy-openly-admits-russia-invaded-donbas-806554.html
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Not that this is exactly new news-- but it is interesting matter of record when the Russian miliatry involvement is confirmed by the same people who deny it!!
Militant's Minsk envoy openly admits Russia invaded Donbas
"In an interview with TV channel Luhansk 24, Vladislav Deinego, ‘Luhansk People's Republic's' official envoy to the Minsk talks, openly declared that Russia is fighting on the side of ‘LPR' militants. His statement fully negates testimonies by so-called ‘witnesses' who claim that a ‘civil war' is raging in Ukraine. On the one side, some people are trying to cover up for the aggressor state (Russia), while here on television, Mr. Deinego publicly states that Russia is actively participating in the war and supporting the separatist ‘state of Luhansk'," Kazansky wrote in the article for Euromaidan Press.
http://uatoday.tv/politics/suddenly-militant-s-minsk-envoy-openly-admits-russia-invaded-donbas-806554.html
So, Jay, look at this, from the article you posted:
Kazansky explained: "In response to the TV host's statement that Ukrainian radicals could ‘destroy the ‘LPR' just as local radicals in Libya destroyed Gaddafi, Deinego replied that Russia has always come to the rescue of the ‘LPR' in times of need, has saved the puppet state many times from destruction, and will deploy its troops in Luhansk region in future if hostilities between the Armed Forces of Ukraine and the separatists escalate."
Do you really think that, Vladislav Deinego, ‘Luhansk People's Republic's' official envoy to the Minsk, referred to the entity he is representing as a puppet state? In reality, what we have here, is a Ukrainian news source reporting on a reporter from the "EuroMaidan Press" (sounds impartial and reliable), reporting on a TV interview that reported what Deinego apparently said. So what is that, four times removed from the source? This is a game of telephone....
When will you stop using the reliably unreliable Ukrainian press for your "facts"? When you do, your arguments will have a lot more credibility and they will also surely be toned down.
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You didn't read the article. The reference to Ukrainian radicals was a description by the author of the piece, not what was presented on television in Luhansk.
Euromaidan Press is a group of volunteers, most of whom live in the West, who translate articles appearing in various Ukrainian and Russian newspapers for Westerners interested in the region.
The article Jay linked was written by Paul Goble, an expert on Soviet nationalities who worked for the State Department under James Baker, and later, was a deputy director at Radio Liberty and a CIA analyst on Soviet nationalities policies. He now heads the Jamestown Foundation's Eurasia group.
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You didn't read the article. The reference to Ukrainian radicals was a description by the author of the piece, not what was presented on television in Luhansk.
Euromaidan Press is a group of volunteers, most of whom live in the West, who translate articles appearing in various Ukrainian and Russian newspapers for Westerners interested in the region.
The article Jay linked was written by Paul Goble, an expert on Soviet nationalities who worked for the State Department under James Baker, and later, was a deputy director at Radio Liberty and a CIA analyst on Soviet nationalities policies. He now heads the Jamestown Foundation's Eurasia group.
I read the article. It was a description of a description of a description.
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When will you stop using the reliably unreliable Ukrainian press for your "facts"? When you do, your arguments will have a lot more credibility and they will also surely be toned down.
Once again --in your haste to attempt to discredit me you have not read the article.!
Just as your previous accusation was incorrect on the words of Trump actually being quoted you once again want to dispute the words that make the basis of the headline.
You have some pre-conceived agenda -- and it is not me that is discredited.
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I read the article. It was a description of a description of a description.
Well then, you didn't read it carefully. This is what the Luhansk People's representative stated, per the article -
"In an interview with TV channel Luhansk 24, Vladislav Deinego, ‘Luhansk People's Republic's' official envoy to the Minsk talks, openly declared that Russia is fighting on the side of ‘LPR' militants. His statement fully negates testimonies by so-called ‘witnesses' who claim that a ‘civil war' is raging in Ukraine. On the one side, some people are trying to cover up for the aggressor state (Russia), while here on television, Mr. Deinego publicly states that Russia is actively participating in the war and supporting the separatist ‘state of Luhansk',"
The bolded part is the only quote from the LPR envoy. The rest is from the journalist. So, your statement was inaccurate.
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Once again --in your haste to attempt to discredit me you have not read the article.!
Just as your previous accusation was incorrect on the words of Trump actually being quoted you once again want to dispute the words that make the basis of the headline.
You have some pre-conceived agenda -- and it is not me that is discredited.
What is wrong with you? Unlike most people, I actually have read the articles you linked to. And I stand by what I said. You are posting junk. If not, then show the quote. Write it up in the thread. That someone said that someone said that someone said that Donald Trump said something is not a quote!
Write it up and correct me. I will admit my wrong if you can provide it.
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The Paul Goble article he linked is not junk. Most of what is on Euromaidan Press is not junk. I don't agree with all of it, but they make clear what is opinion and what is not.
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Well then, you didn't read it carefully. This is what the Luhansk People's representative stated, per the article -
"In an interview with TV channel Luhansk 24, Vladislav Deinego, ‘Luhansk People's Republic's' official envoy to the Minsk talks, openly declared that Russia is fighting on the side of ‘LPR' militants. His statement fully negates testimonies by so-called ‘witnesses' who claim that a ‘civil war' is raging in Ukraine. On the one side, some people are trying to cover up for the aggressor state (Russia), while here on television, Mr. Deinego publicly states that Russia is actively participating in the war and supporting the separatist ‘state of Luhansk',"
The bolded part is the only quote from the LPR envoy. The rest is from the journalist. So, your statement was inaccurate.
Moby...I hope you're reading this.
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Ukrainians have lived with Russian interference in the development of their own domestic and foreign policy for a long time. When international media outlets started to parrot Russian propaganda that was enough for one activist to do something about this situation.
Diplomatic Defense & Destabilizing Democracy in Ukraine
Suprun: It seems that the inspiration for your involvement was Russian interference in Ukrainian affairs. It happened probably because you can literally “see the forest for the trees.” You seem to have developed a unique talent that is to see Russian interference. I remember a story that EuroMaidan Press broke about the origins of the calls for a third Maidan. You actually broke that story. Digging deeper, who were the people calling for the third Maidan? Can you tell us about that?
Shandra: I cannot say that we actually broke it because we see ourselves connecting Ukrainian media to the world. There was a wonderful investigation about groups in social media calling for the third Maidan. Thanks to Ukrainian investigative journalist who was able to investigate the story and translate it to the English speaking audience. The groups are linked to Stepan Mazura who is a militant of DNR and who is currently in Moscow working on informational operations to incite unrest in Ukraine. How do we know this is true? We have done a complicated tracking work in establishing identity of this group administrator. Basically, his friends gave it away confirming that is him. The groups involve many troll accounts meaning they are not real people and they are artificially created accounts. At the time a specific topic needs to be disseminated in Ukrainian society, they start publishing all these things, liking them, sharing them. The real life friends of the bots also see this topic pops up and they start sharing that. That is how you make a wave across social media in hopes Ukrainian journalists will pick that up. That is how you plant a seed of disinformation in a whole discourse. These groups are operating in Ukraine. SBU is investigating administrators of such groups. Stepan Mazura is not the only one, obviously. There are other administrators. I have seen news about a couple of arrests.
http://hromadskeradio.org/en/programs/ukraine-calling/diplomatic-defense-destabilizing-democracy-in-ukraine
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For those who deny Russian involvement in Donbas, evidence to the contrary keeps rolling in -
In August 2016, Ukraine’s General Procurator published a video tape (http://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=0w78QuxBUe0)containing illustrated and annotated audio recordings of a number of conversations between Sergey Glazyev, a Russian Presidential Advisor (an official governmental position), and several Russian as well as Ukrainian pro-Kremlin activists located or living in Southern and Eastern Ukraine. These dialogs were recorded in late February – early March 2014. . .
The tapes reveal the involvement either of the Russian state itself, or of a formally non-governmental Russian group directed from the Kremlin in the initiation, coordination and financing of separatist meetings, demonstrations, pickets and similar actions on Crimea as well as in various regional capitals in Ukraine’s eastern and southern parts immediately after Euromaidan.
Putin’s advisor Glazyev, for instance, on 1 March 2014 informs (http://uaposition.com/analysis-opinion/english-translation-audio-evidence-putins-adviser-glazyev-russian-politicians-involvement-war-ukraine/) his interlocutor Anatoliy Petrovich in the south-east Ukrainian city of Zaporizhzhia: 'I have an order to raise everybody, to raise the people. People should gather on the square [of Zaporizhzhia] and demand to turn to Russia for help against the Banderites [derived from the name of Stepan Bandera – a war-time Ukrainian ultra-nationalist who fought against, among others, Soviet power and was killed by a KGB agent at Munich in 1959]. Specially trained people should throw out the Banderites from the regional council’s building. Then they should arrange a meeting of the regional council, create a regional executive committee, give it executive power and subordinate the police to this new executive. I have direct orders from the leadership [of Russia] – to raise the people in Ukraine wherever we can. That means we have to bring people to the streets, as we did in Kharkiv – according to this example! And as soon as possible! Because, you see, President [Putin] has already signed a [presidential] decree. The operation has already began, there is information that the troops are already moving out. What are they waiting for? We can not do all this with [military] force. We use force only to support the people – nothing more! But if there are no people, what support can there be?'
http://www.raamoprusland.nl/dossiers/oekraine/359-glazyev-tapes-what-moscow-s-interference-in-ukraine-means-for-the-minsk-agreements (http://www.raamoprusland.nl/dossiers/oekraine/359-glazyev-tapes-what-moscow-s-interference-in-ukraine-means-for-the-minsk-agreements)
I don't anticipate the smoking gun will change the minds of the blind or ideologically driven.
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What is the correct spelling of Donbas? Donbass?
I have seen it spelled both ways in news releases, etc. The Cyrillic 'c' on the end of the word, as spelled in Russian would lead me to believe that it should be Donbas. But I have never been able to get a clear answer.
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Donbas is a Ukrainian transliteration, Donbass is a Russian transliteration.
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Similar to Ukrainian Odesa and Russian Odessa.
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And Cherkasy and Cherkassy !!
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While this is not 'new" news-it does confirm what actually took place-- and it's significance.
I can't help but recall the fools here who repeated Kremlin bs denials -and those that sort to justify Russian actions.
In late August 2014 the Ukrainian military reported about the massive invasion of Russian regular army in eastern Ukraine, the fact which was also confirmed by many reports in western press.
The Bellingcat found the separate proofs of the Russian invasion, analysing the satellite images. They detected on the satellite images the new military positions inside Ukraine’s territory between the Russian border and Ukrainian troops near Ilovaisk and Novoazovsk
More proof of Russian military aggression against Ukraine revealed
The secret cross-border strikes of Russian artillery against Ukrainian army played a key role in the development of war in eastern Ukraine. A new report by Bellingcat, a citizen investigative group, reveals it was more frequent and massive than it was believed before.
While Russia denied ever having its artillery firing at the Ukrainian army from within the Russian territory, these attacks made it impossible for the Ukrainian troops to liberate the entire territory of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts from the Russian-backed separatists in summer 2014, leaving parts of it occupied till today.
Russia’s war against Ukraine took nearly 10,000 lives and forced about 1.7 million people to leave their homes. The fighting in Donbas still continues, with Ukrainian soldiers being wounded or killed almost daily.
The Bellingcat report, published on Dec. 21, proved that there were at least 149 cases of the Russian cross-border artillery strikes during July-September 2014.
“Recent additions of satellite imagery to Google Earth, Yandex, and Bing maps services now provides us with the evidence to map Russian artillery fire in 2014 to a much fuller extent,” the report reads.
One of the first and the deadliest cases of cross-border shelling occurred on July 11, 2014, near Zelenopillya in Luhansk Oblast, where dozens of Ukrainian soldiers were killed by Grad multiple rocket launchers fired from the Russian territory.
Denys, a former soldier of the 72nd mechanized brigade, told the Kyiv Post his unit was stationed not far from Zelenopillya and he personally saw the massive shelling.
“They burned them alive,” he said, refusing to give his last name because he wasn’t authorized for giving comments to the press.
He added that on the next day the Russians started shelling his own position.
Denys believes that without Russian artillery strikes across the border the Ukrainian troops were able to keep control over the border area, which would prevent the separatists from receiving reinforcement in people and arms.
http://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/proof-russian-military-aggression-ukraine-revealed.html
Putin’s Undeclared War: Summer 2014 – Russian Artillery Strikes against Ukraine
During summer 2014, Ukrainian officials and also the U.S. government were already publicly stating that the Russian military were active in the war. A number of subsequent reports have corroborated these claims, documenting the presence and death of Russian servicemen in Eastern Ukraine, as well as the existence of Russian military equipment inside Ukraine.
In this report, an under-reported aspect of Russian military involvement in the conflict is fully investigated: artillery attacks against Ukraine in summer 2014. In previous reports such attacks were proven to have occurred on several occasions, but these reports could not fully describe the real extent of these attacks. Using open source evidence, this report attempts to document the full scale of the Russian artillery attacks against Ukraine in summer 2014.
http://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2016/12/21/russian-artillery-strikes-against-ukraine/
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Hardly a surprise
UN confirms Yanukovych asked Kremlin to deploy troops in Ukraine
http://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/unian-un-confirms-yanukovych-asked-kremlin-deploy-troops-ukraine.html
UN documents prove Yanukovych asked Russia to send troops into Ukraine[/size
http://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/un-documents-prove-yanukovych-asked-russia-send-troops-ukraine.html
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For those not familiar with a lot of recent history this story will give you a lot. For those that are still failing to see Russian crimes against Ukraine and Ukrainians you need even more so to read.
You can't understand the Kremlin's agenda without examining the situation of political prisoners — and Ukrainian citizens feature heavily in this list.
As an aside -- the prosecutor in this case used to be on some of the more notorious "dating" sites .Her profile( and her) may well be still there!
Making them pay for Maidan
The secret services in Russian-controlled Crimea needed to find a formal pretext for pressing criminal charges against Kostenko and others involved in the EuroMaidan protests, given that their alleged crimes took place on the territory of another state. Therefore Kostenko’s prosecutors resorted to a rarely used article of Russia’s Criminal Code (Article 12, Paragraph 3, link in Russian) which foresees criminal prosecution of an individual who commits a crime against a Russian citizen outside Russia’s borders.
http://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/igor-gukovsky/making-them-pay-for-maidan
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Speaking out in Russia against Putin/Kremlin/FSB has proven a very dangerous thing to do in Russia. It is a very brave thing to in the current climate.
All good points being made. If the west is really interested in helping themselves then helping Ukraine is the easiest and fastest way.
A major setback over Ukraine would see the heat turned on Putin and his Kremlin cronies.
Ukraine’s Friend & Foe Of The Week
On the “60 Minutes” program on state-owned Rossiya 1, Gozman – who heads the Social Movement Union of Right Forces of Russia – openly blamed Russia for the three-year-old war that has killed 10,00 people.
“This terrible war, with victims on both sides, with atrocities and violence – it couldn’t last for more than a day if we didn’t support, with arms, money, and people, these so-called leaders of these (separatist) republics, who from my point of view are simply criminals,” Gozman said.
Gozman blamed not only the Russian government, but also Russian citizens for allowing the war to continue. “We have nothing to do there, our guys have nothing to do there. And the fact that we are supporting people like (separatist leader Alexander) Zakharchenko is our – and yours as a Russian citizen – responsibility,” Gozman said.
He added that Russian President Vladimir Putin’s government wanted to keep the war in Ukraine going to win domestic support.
“Our government gets a lot from this war,” Gozman said. “They get the consolidation of the society, they get an enemy… Having an enemy is important because they need to explain why we have such a bad life.”
He is not alone. Former Russian State Duma Deputy Denis Voronenkov, who defected to Ukraine last year, has called Russia’s 2014 annexation of Ukraine’s Crimea region “ a mistake.”
According to Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, in an interview with Censor.net, Voronenkov compared Russia with
Nazi Germany – saying that Russia’s Federal Security Service (FSB) controls everything in the country.
Voronenkov called former Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych, who was toppled by the EuroMaidan Revolution on Feb. 22, 2014, a Kremlin “puppet” who fled to Russia and asked Putin to send Russian troops to Ukraine.
He said that Russia had gone “crazy on its pseudo-patriotic madness” and that “Crimea has united Russia around the idea to steal something from a neighbor.”
http://www.kyivpost.com/article/opinion/op-ed/brian-bonner-ukraines-friend-foe-week-2.html
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On the anniversary of Maidan many articles are appearing that brings us up to date. At the time much of this was happening many disputed what we now know as fact eg it was Russian special forces who were responsible for the seizure of many buildings and infrastructure in eastern Ukraine -- and as such was not an uprising against Kyiv rule at all.
Currently there has been a huge escalation in Russian attacks --probably in the attempt to consolidate or expand ground held in anticipation of potential settlement.
Russia, renowned for asking the international community to swallow their obvious lies, is suggesting that Ukraine provoked this escalation, and the reason Ukraine did this, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov asserts, is to draw attention to Ukraine at a time when, frankly, anything might happen because Donald Trump is now in the Oval Ofice.
Fake News? Fake Civil War!
So, let us, finally, dispel the notion that this war, which has killed well in excess of 10,000 people, is any kind of local “separatist” conflict. It is not. You think fake news is a problem? This is a very real and deadly war, but the grounds of it are entirely fake. It is not a local conflict, or an inter-Ukrainian battle – it is Russian trained directed commanded and supplied, as well as ordered.
The Ukrainian towns and cities that were among the first to see fighting, like Slovyansk, are now at peace in free Ukraine. This is an obvious indication of the fact that this conflict was never driven by local agency. The few locals who did indeed participate were the thugs linked to the organized crime gangs that were a hallmark of the Yanukovych era. It is no surprise to see such people coming down on Putin’s side, of course.
In this eastern Ukraine “uprising” fable that Russia has tried to sell to the world, where were the prominent local players? They were nonexistent. The only known Ukrainian that had any kind of leadership position in this attempt to bullshit a state into existence was the repugnant Oleg Tsarov, and he’s not even from the Donbas. The rest of the rag tag band of men tasked by Moscow with wresting this land away from Ukraine, regardless of the will of the people, came from nowhere, or they came from Russia.
http://www.kyivpost.com/article/opinion/op-ed/paul-niland-fake-news-fake-civil-war.html
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Despite all of this, there are Ukrainians who move back from the West, and even more Russians are moving back now, as they are encountering Russophobia.
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On the other hand, if I am a Pom, I might think of it. ;D
And one more reason I do not want to live there. Putin can take the whole country in 2 days if he wants. And we can't do shit about it.
You have a point, yeah I always got the feeling when over there that Putin/Russia could just invade so fast that I could quite likely be caught up in it before I had any chance to effect an escape. The size of the Russian armed forces would no doubt hopelessly swamp that of the Ukraine and Putin might well see an full scale invasion as preferable to dealing with pesky Ukraine. We would then be back to 'the Ukraine' ;) Would not be something I would like to see as I think it brings more variation to the region with Ukrainians having their own country.
For sure though as a Pom I would consider living in Ukraine for a while, I'm not sure about indefinitely. I would only do so though with sound finances and a decent steady and reliable income stream from the UK. That way I could survive and seek out opportunities in Ukraine without worry. The UK is a lot nearer to Ukraine/Russia though so its not literally having to start up a life in the other side of the world. Plus I've always got the feeling that US job opportunities are frequently a lot more lucrative than here so less to give up here, lol. Odessa struck me as quite a nice place to live when over there, Nikolaev, kind of nice in parts but too out in the wilderness for my liking.
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Russia is not going to invade Ukraine. There is no strategic advantage to do so.
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Russia is not going to invade Ukraine. There is no strategic advantage to do so.
Please ,please --for those that do not understand--read a few threads and learn before making these types of comments( as per invade & TC response) .
That is --if you want to keep threads close to topic .Throwing in a galling hand grenade only incites dumbarse ignorant comments.
Added later --this thread was migrated so my comments were originally in that thread
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Russia is not going to invade Ukraine. There is no strategic advantage to do so.
Tank factory in Kharkiv, Naval ports in Nikolaev, Kherson & Mariupol. Shipbuilding facilities, Coal mining around Donetsk, agricultural and other resources. People productivity, taxes and stuff I probably haven't thought about. People for Army. Shorter territorial front by not having to post troops all around the border of Ukraine. Another opposition country silenced, etc. Sure Russia will have its own Tanks and ships but as they say the more the merrier.
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I had been told the ship building in Nikolaev is pretty much nonexistent now. I did go to the Ship Building museum there. Interesting place.
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Tank factory in Kharkiv, Naval ports in Nikolaev, Kherson & Mariupol. Shipbuilding facilities, Coal mining around Donetsk, agricultural and other resources. People productivity, taxes and stuff I probably haven't thought about. People for Army. Shorter territorial front by not having to post troops all around the border of Ukraine. Another opposition country silenced, etc. Sure Russia will have its own Tanks and ships but as they say the more the merrier.
Russia has tank factories and naval ports. wallm, there is shipbuilding in Ukraine these days, though not for military sources.
The Kharkiv tank factory only makes about 50 tanks a years (that is 2017). The high quality coal that was used to make tanks was from Russia.
Productivity of people who are hostile toward you? Right. Rather, Russia will have 48 million more mouths to feed. Russia doesn't want to feed Ukraine. It doesn't even want to feed Donbas. It does want Ukraine in its sphere of influence.
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I had been told the ship building in Nikolaev is pretty much nonexistent now. I did go to the Ship Building museum there. Interesting place.
Yeah, I did the tour of the Ship Building Museum too, its ok, certainly a must do when in Nikolaev.
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A little recent history -- for those familiar it is worth a recap on parts of this story. For what seems like too many who continue to show ignorance-- read a little and learn a little.
Despite the monumental difficulties Ukrainians face in those days-- incredible bravery saved Ukraine at that time.In a period of huge uncertainty Ukraine became a nation -- a proud and brave nation.
A few words in this short story encapsulates some of it.
Why Did Putin Get Stuck in Eastern Ukraine?
Russia’s hybrid war against Ukraine is now entering its fourth year, but there was a time when few expected it to last even four weeks. The virtually bloodless seizure of Crimea, which fell to Russian troops in early 2014 without a fight, led most observers to conclude that Ukraine was effectively defenseless and at Moscow’s mercy.
http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/why-did-putin-get-stuck-in-eastern-ukraine
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In the early phases of the fight in Eastern Ukraine, the Ukrainian army all but encircled the separatists (paid mercenaries, mostly). In a response, the Russians sent their best troops in to fight the Ukrainians. Two encirclements ensued. Unfortunately, Putin was playing his best Darth Sidious imitation. If one remembers Star Wars, episode I, Sidious, when confronted with opposition gave his quotable line: "Wipe them out". Many Ukrainians lost their lives during this time period as a result of Putin wanting to punish Ukraine and destabilize it for the future.
While Russia still maintains support for Eastern Ukraine, I don't think, absent the Russian use of its air force, that a similar result would be forthcoming. Ukraine has had a three year opportunity to entrench and rearm. While Ukraine would not win, Russia would pay a much steeper price than during the initial invasion.
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US Secretary of State Rex Tillerson is reported to have asked G7 ministers why America should care about Ukraine, which the Reuters report says “has been racked by a separatist conflict for the last three years”. The question, after Russia’s invasion and annexation of another country’s territory, is frankly astounding. The response from European leaders was rather better, possibly because they have every reason to understand how little the events in eastern Ukraine resemble a ‘separatist conflict’. All of Russia’s neighbours, including the 3 Baltic States who are members of NATO, are acutely aware that Russia will not stop if it is not forced to.
Russian war crimes in Ukraine are of interest, Mr Tillerson
Girkin dismissed the likelihood of his ending up before the International Criminal Court in the Hague, in part because he knows too much. Given the number of prominent militant fighters who have been killed in ‘terrorist attacks’ or died under unexplained circumstances, Girkin’s expectations may well be realistic.
One of the most disturbing parts of the Komsomolskaya Pravda program was the way Girkin was introduced to the audience as “hero of the Russian Spring” who “defended Donbas” as the audience’s ancestors had once defended Russia.
During the months that Sloviansk was under militant control, it was hard to keep up with the abductions and hostage-taking and there were a large number of cases of torture and killing as well as extrajudicial executions. Girkin had his headquarters in the Sloviansk SBU [Security Service] building. Hostages were held in the basement there, as well as in the central police building, and in both places were subjected to torture
At least one mass grave was found after the militants fled. This included the bodies of four members of the Evangelical Church of the Transfiguration in Sloviansk: the two sons - Reuben and Albert – of Paster Oleksandr Pavenko, and two deacons of the church Viktor Bradarsky and Volodymyr Velichko. They had been abducted from the Trinity Sunday festive service on June 8, and are believed to have been tortured and then killed the next day.
http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1491958269
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I seem to recall that you have been censored on here for exposing the forum to liabilities for quoting news articles verbatim. I am not a moderator and cannot speak for the forum, but the habitual quoting of articles without personal contributions puts our forum at risk.
Please consider this when posting.
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Some posts and links are self explanatory.
This video shows the striking similarity between the Hitler’s Nazi Germany right before the Second World War and the present-day Putin’s Russia. It draws parallels between the social life in Germany of 1930’s and Russia in 2010’s, and tries to analyze how a regular nation can turn into a herd of fascists. This happens every time when an abused “former empire” decides to “rise from its knees”, and when its nation being encouraged with recent illusive achievements starts to believe in its own superiority.
This video should serve as a reminder of how an uncontrollable power of one sick man supported by millions of brainwashed masses can lead to a big disaster.
Comparison of Hitler’s Germany with Putin’s Russia: How Russians Became Fascists.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOvoBKIqSPA
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Interesting article that highlights some fundamentals of current day Russian thinking.
To put it another way --Putin and Russia simply refuse to recognise or accept Ukraine as a free and independent country-- and choose their own version of history.
Why We Continue to Misunderstand Putin’s War in Ukraine
Russian views of Ukraine are long-standing, have broad acceptance in Putin’s regime and even among the opposition, and will not change quickly. Russian great power nationalism and national identity view Ukraine and Ukrainians in four ways.
The first, as Putin tirelessly repeats, is that Russians and Ukrainians are one people. In this perspective, Ukrainians, like Belarusians, are branches of the Russian people
The second concept is that Russian identity is grounded in language and culture; as Putin told the NATO-Russia Council in Bucharest in April 2008, Russian speakers are Russians. Russian nationalist dissidents in the USSR, the well-known writer Alexander Solzhenitsyn, and Putin all believe that eastern and southern Ukraine—and not only Crimea—were wrongly included inside Ukraine by Soviet leader Vladimir Lenin.
Third, Ukraine is not a truly sovereign state; it is an artificial creation propped up domestically by Jewish-Ukrainian oligarchs and externally by the United States and EU.
Fourth, Putin and his fellow FSB officers were socialized into Soviet life during the “era of stagnation”
These underlying elements of Russian nationalism and national identity have shaped Putin’s thinking regarding Ukraine, and yet have been largely ignored by Western experts and policymakers. But without grasping the fundamentals of how Putin and his subordinates view neighboring countries like Ukraine, the international foreign policy community will never fully understand the war Russia has been waging in Ukraine since 2014, and why it will be with us for the foreseeable future.
http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/why-we-continue-to-misunderstand-putin-s-war-in-ukraine
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No surprise to most here on forum but more cross confirmation of what is known. It is still interesting to me that Putin and Russia can tell absolutely provable lies and keep telling them ! Even more remarkable are the people that believe them.
Russia Funds and Manages Conflict in Ukraine
In his own words, the Surkov leaks show that the Kremlin directs and funds the ostensibly independent republics in eastern Ukraine and runs military operations there. Yet nearly all media in the West speak about the war in the Donbas as being run by Kremlin-backed separatists, but this isn’t a true characterization. Moscow is actively guiding and managing this breakaway state, down to paying invoices for office equipment. The leaks provides clear, irrefutable evidence that the Donetsk People’s Republic is not an independent actor; it is a creature of the Kremlin and should be treated as such. It’s time for the media and foreign governments to catch up and call it what it is: a Russian hybrid war.
http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/russia-funds-and-manages-conflict-in-ukraine-leaks-show
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Following on previous post this is also a good summary.
Truth and propaganda about the war in Ukraine
The war currently being waged in Eastern Ukraine is difficult for people who are not familiar with the history of Eastern Europe to understand. Of course, President Vladimir Putin of Russia would have you believe that this is a "civil" war between predominantly Russian-speaking Ukrainians in Eastern Ukraine fighting for independence from the predominantly Ukrainian-speaking natives of Central and Western Ukraine. His well-oiled and well-funded propaganda machine has also spent considerable time, money and effort trying to convince the Western world that Ukraine's government is dominated by ultra-nationalist fascist forces who seized power back in 2014 in an illegal coup. Muddying up the waters even further, he continues to claim that Russian forces were not involved in the takeover of Crimea, and that there are no Russian soldiers fighting in Eastern Ukraine.
Of course, anyone that takes the trouble to do any fact-checking soon realizes that this is utter nonsense. Worse than that, it clearly demonstrates that one of Putin's most potent forces in the various "hybrid wars" as they have come to be called, is disinformation, or the deliberate manipulation of media to create the big lie that masks his aggressive imperialistic ambitions and actions.
http://www.thespec.com/opinion-story/7255729-truth-and-propaganda-about-the-war-in-ukraine/
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The Ukrainian "rebels" are well supplied, though it can't be by Russia, right?
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/world/pinpoint-propaganda-ukraine-soldiers-receiving-sinister-text-messages-on-battlefield-from-fake-cell-towers
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The Ukrainian "rebels" are well supplied, though it can't be by Russia, right?
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/world/pinpoint-propaganda-ukraine-soldiers-receiving-sinister-text-messages-on-battlefield-from-fake-cell-towers
Not exactly either new or a surprise to most informed people -- But --it seems that there are plenty of people in places with a huge potential to influence events in Ukraine that do not understand much at all about the situation .
Ex-rebel leaders detail role played by Putin aide in east Ukraine
A top aide to Vladimir Putin decides how the pro-Moscow administration of eastern Ukraine is run and who gets what jobs there, three former rebel leaders said, challenging Kremlin denials that it calls the shots in the region.
Their comments to Reuters shed light on the role played by the secretive Vladislav Surkov, who has long been at the Russian president's side. The Kremlin says his official role is to advise Putin on Ukraine, where the rebels are fighting government forces.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-russia-surkov-insight-idUSKBN1870TJ?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Reuters%2FworldNews+%28Reuters+World+News%29
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After the Revolution of Dignity in Ukraine in 2014, the Kremlin launched a full-scale disinformation campaign against Ukraine. Russian special services are deeply involved in these actions. Agents from the FSB, the Russian special services, have been trying to infiltrate Ukrainian organizations and civil society. Volunteers say that these activities are widespread
Russian Active Measures Used to Attack Ukrainian Civil Society
Russian special services have been heavily involved in the conflict in eastern Ukraine. From their officers commanding the so-called ‘separatist’ forces to cyber attacks and old-school spying, Russian authorities have pulled out all the stops in order to damage Ukraine.
http://euromaidanpress.com/2017/08/14/russian-active-measures-used-to-attack-ukrainian-civil-society/
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Russia continues to rain death down on Ukraine while Putinistas applaud.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/a-russian-blackwater-putins-secret-soldiers-in-ukraine-and-syria?ref=home
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There is no way Ukraine should agree to anything less that total Russian withdrawal. Put the total obliteration of the Russian forces on the table, use the international forces to close the border -- give Russia no options by telling them what is going to happen-- that is the way to "negotiate" with Putin!
The Ukrainian military is getting stronger by the day --and Russia weaker by the day. Now is the time to push harder and with a clear intent in mind. To do that--Ukraine needs the unwavering support of the west-especially the Nato countries .
Quote
"The negotiations between Volker and Surkov may continue for a long time, but one should be cautious when hoping for any success. It is important to understand that no real “thaw” is possible because Russia’s confrontational policy towards the West is its main and unchanging feature, which originates from the very nature of the Russian regime."
Why the Volker-Surkov talks on Donbas cannot succeed
Putin’s goal is not only Ukraine. The subordination of Kyiv or strengthening the Assad regime are only stages in achieving Russia’s ultimate goal – a new international order, and regaining the status of a world superpower. Moscow is one of very few countries in the world (and the only one in the “nuclear club”), which considers the use of armed forces as a normal foreign policy tool. In the last ten years it has demonstrated this three times – in Georgia, Ukraine and Syria. Military power can, at least partially, offset Russia’s diminishing role in the global economy. At the same time Moscow understands very well that even after the limited use of weapons by Russia, the West is not ready to respond in kind.
http://neweasterneurope.eu/2018/03/13/volker-surkov-talks-donbas-cannot-succeed/
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Not new news-but confirmation backed by factual information.
For those that can recall we had numerous people here parroting the Kremlin BS denials of Russian complicity. The effectiveness of the confusion caused is clear- it prevented any possible outside aide being given to Ukraine.
Ukraine is making its way very nicely without Russia and is moving west . The cost of the Russian invasion has hurt Ukraine and the Ukrainian people and slowed progress -- but not stopped it.
Putin,the Kremlin,Russia have failed -- and failed miserably in Ukraine and over its attempts to take control . Yje sooner they get out of all of Ukraine the quicker progress can be in Ukraine.
Russian troops in eastern Ukraine
According to Bellingcat’s estimates, tens of thousands of Russian troops took part in the battles in Donbas.
It is impossible to fully assess the scale of the involvement of the Russian regular troops in the Donbas conflict without official data from the Russian government, states Bellingcat in its many reports. But if you analyze the number of medals that have been awarded among the Russian military forces, it is possible to estimate figures. There was a marked increase in the number of awards in 2014-2015. They all have serial numbers.
Based on the information available through open sources, there were 4,500 medals awarded “for combat services” alone. Three other types of medals were awarded. In one of their reports, Bellingcat arrives at the conclusion that since not all of the servicemen who fought in the battles in Donbas received awards, it can be deduced that tens of thousands of Russian troops took part in those battles.
http://euromaidanpress.com/2018/05/22/what-we-know-about-russian-troops-in-eastern-ukraine/
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Incredible as it may seem to many here numerous western news agencies are still picking up Russian "news" feeds and using that information. Amazing ignorance in action.
The blatant lies promoted by Russia over this latest attack is quite amazing --the Ukrainian ships were attacked in open waters-- attacked by aircraft and the sea --the videos prove the facts --yet Russian media still attempts ridiculous lies.
Russian wave of disinformation from the Azov Sea
The stories published by Russia Today have clear signs of distorting the facts as they state that “Ukrainian ships entered Russian waters in the Black Sea illegally” while in reality, the bilateral treaty between Russia and Ukraine governs the use of the Kerch Strait and the Sea of Azov, which is considered to be the “internal waters” of both Russia and Ukraine.
Russian media also suggested that the incident was “a deliberate provocation by the Ukrainian authorities” with an aim to “create a diplomatic row” that would lead to sanctions against Moscow being tightened. That is a bit peculiar, as the Ukrainian ships were moving “in accordance with the provisions of all effective multilateral and bilateral international treaties and navigation rules,” according to Ukraine. And the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) states that “All ships, including foreign warships, enjoy the right of “innocent passage” within another state’s territorial sea under international law.”
http://euromaidanpress.com/2018/11/29/russian-wave-of-disinformation-from-the-azov-sea/
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Understanding what the Russian strategy is makes an understanding of short term issues like the Kerch Strait are really about.
This story highlights the difficulties for Ukraine in it's quest for freedom.
Russian spies in Ukraine stoke Kremlin’s war
Ukraine doesn’t just have to worry about Russia at sea or the eastern Donbas.
Kremlin spies are coming to Kyiv en masse, if they are not already in the capital, as Russia steps up clandestine activities amid heightened alert over the Nov. 25 assault by Russia’s Federal Security Service, or FSB, on Ukrainian sailors near the Kerch Strait.
United Kingdom-based investigators and international experts believe that Russian operatives are using sham Ukrainian-owned companies to gain long-term residency in Ukraine. The phony employment serves as a cover for espionage and subversion.
Investigators and security experts claim that the number of agents in Ukraine working for the Russian GRU main intelligence directorate has increased during recent months and may number in the hundreds now.
http://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/russian-spies-in-ukraine-stoke-kremlins-war.html
Not that it helps that much in relation to article above and what has already happened -- just after I posted above Ukraine announced a ban on Russian men from 16 yo to 60 yo from entering Ukraine-effective immediately
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(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/mrz112818dAPR20181128054509.jpg)
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The link below details a minute by minute review of what and where -- the why is because the Russian ships and aircraft were ordered to attack -the bigger "WHY " is why was that order given?
Russian lying would be comical if it was not so serious -- but it has to be for home consumption as the rest of the world sees how ridiculous and easily proven that they are lying --again !
FSB tries to explain attack on Ukrainian ships, proves Russia broke its own laws
Summing up,Russia broke a UN Convention, bilateral Ukraine-Russia Treaty, and several of its own laws when it denied the Ukrainian ships passage to the Azov Strait and when it opened fire on them;The FSB proved that Russia’s use of fire against the Ukrainian ships was unprovoked and without legal reason;The FSB admitted that Russia fired on Ukrainian ships outside of the territorial waters of occupied Crimea and made crude geographical mistakes;The FSB contradicted its own story. Why block the Ukrainian ships near the Crimean bridge for eight hours if you suspect an act of sabotage, and if you were pursuing what you consider to be violators of the border regime? Why attack them when they are leaving into the open sea, away from the bridge?The FSB story features lies (“Berdiansk was not answering calls of the Russian border guards”) and omits the episode when Russian border ships rammed the Ukrainian tugboat, which led to its loss of engines;Meanwhile, open-source material has proved no inconsistency in the Ukrainian version of events.
http://euromaidanpress.com/2018/12/02/fsb-attempt-to-explain-why-russia-attacked-ukrainian-ships-contradictions-and-lehal-nihilism/
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Nicely thought out piece that provides a good summary.
Fitting the complexities of the purpose of the Russian attacks on Ukraine together helps those not so familiar understand better what is going on. There is hardly an independent outside observer that has a different view
Thwarting Moscow’s latest escalation
Moscow’s open attack on the Ukrainian ships was designed primarily to prevent Kyiv from increasing its naval presence in the Sea of Azov. Over the course of the year, the Kremlin has enhanced its presence in the Sea of Azov. It now has eight naval vessels in this small sea. To protect its large naval advantage there, the Kremlin first blocked passage and then attacked Ukrainian ships.
But Moscow’s confrontation with the Ukrainian ships was also designed to provoke Ukrainian fire. The Kremlin wanted a Ukrainian “provocation” to which they could “respond.” But Ukraine did not return fire. For those who follow Kremlin policy in its neighborhood, this looks dangerously familiar.
http://thehill.com/opinion/international/419200-thwarting-moscows-latest-escalation
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There are a fair number of Russian supporters and sympathisers here on the forum (& around the world) whose disgusting rationalisation of Putin and his kleptocrats is ongoing -- despite all the obvious facts now in evidence. More keeps coming into the light everyday -- as good Ukrainians continue to be killed.maimed, injured and displaced --let alone the intended negative affect on a free and democratic independent Ukraine.
I draw particular attention to this paragraph ( especially for some here who still seem to believe otherwise) and surveys on preferred statehood prior to the Russian invasion. I hate channelling Moby here -- BUT-- my Ukrainian ex was heavily involved in the collation and interpretation analysis of this type of data at that time and earlier--all across Ukraine -- and I spent a lot of time learning and hearing ( & yes-I was very interested) . Subsequently -- seeing the Russian troll army and propaganda get into gear and promote "alternative facts" was a very real thing for me -- so reading this ( & more) connects dots not able to be confirmed at that time.
I personally witnessed a number of events referred to in this article .
I ask you all to red this and digest what it means --Ukraine is fighting for it's life- and Freedom from Russian tyranny and it needs help. Good people are still dieing as a result of Russian aggression.
"Although the international community has remained united in refusing to recognize Russia’s annexation of Ukrainian Crimea five years ago, it has been disturbingly willing to accept Russia’s narrative about the supposed mass support in Crimea for this move. Even those who recognize that the 16 March ‘referendum’ was flawed still assume that euphoric crowds with Russian flags are somehow more reliable than the surveys carried out before Russia’s invasion that found only a minority in favour of joining Russia."
Glazyev tapes debunk Russia’s lies about its annexation of Crimea and undeclared war against Ukraine
One major source of evidence of the methods Russia used in both Crimea and other parts of Ukraine in 2014 has not received the attention it deserves. The Glazyev tapes were first made public by Ukraine’s SBU [Security Service] in August 2016, with more recordings revealed during the trial (in absentia) of former Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych. They appear to be intercepted telephone conversations between Sergei Glazyev, a senior adviser to Russian President Vladimir Putin and various other figures, including Konstantin Zatulin, Director of the Russian Institute of CIS Countries who was declared persona non grata in Ukraine back in 2006 for activities linked with seeking Crimea’s secession from Ukraine. Zatulin admitted soon after the initial publication that his voice is on the tapes, though claimed that they were a manipulative montage. Both Glazyev and Zatulin have reportedly received the Russian state awards ‘For the return of Crimea’ given to those who played a direct role in Russia’s annexation.
http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1551054011
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There are a fair number of Russian supporters and sympathisers here on the forum (& around the world) whose disgusting rationalisation of Putin and his kleptocrats is ongoing -- despite all the obvious facts now in evidence. More keeps coming into the light everyday -- as good Ukrainians continue to be killed.maimed, injured and displaced --let alone the intended negative affect on a free and democratic independent Ukraine.
JayH
It would be more accurate if you used the term Kremlin, rather than Russians as it portrays Russians as 'bad' and Ukrainians as 'good' ... The truth is never as black and white as that ..
Of course the Kremlin manipulated the events leading up to the Crimea intervention E. Ukraine campaign and failed attempts to light up eth RU support in Odessa ..and achieve 'Novorossiya' :puke:
The west were in retrospect naive to think that Putin wouldn't try to counter the anti-corruption moves to remove Yanu' and the moves to portray them as 'Nazi's' which was particularly insulting
You've been to Crimea .... it never felt Ukrainian to me - made up as it was of so many eth RU folk and military... It was an easy target .... places where the ethnicities are closer have not proven so easy to topple ..
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It was not just Odesa -- across many cities the paid Russian thugs attempted to lead/promote/support/pay/recruit a small minority of locals to join .
What happened in Odesa represented a turning of the tide -- and showed the Russians that Ukrainians would fight -- and effectively.
Explaining more -- many of the Russian paid thugs were bused around in relatively large numbers and sent to create "support" etc and attempt to create violent scenes for the news -- ( the idea was to show Ukraine in chaos etc and in need of "help" via Russian occupation etc ) .
At the time --it was social media that saved Ukraine-- as activists gradually realised the Russian strategy and set about countering it via calls for help at the various locations being targeted. As an example -- in a central Ukrainian city --the call for help was to confront 4 buses on the way to a local demonstration( in support of a free Ukraine) and the locals responded in numbers-- as the route and location was publicised the buses were stopped 20 kms out of the city. More and more arrived until it became clear that the locals were more than ready to take them on -- the buses were turned around that day .
That strategy was repeated in quite a few cities-- and social media was crucial in the organisation to resist.
I am going to repeat jone favourite story of those days to illustrate why these groups were clearly not locals ( sorry Jon_) in Kharkiv -- a city in a extremely vulnerable position because of proximity to the Russian border -- the thugs were in hundreds -- and were attempting to lead an "uprising" of locals -- so they invaded and captured what they thought was the city/town hall ( centre of local government) --problem was they went to the most impressive building -- in the Opera House !!
In Donetsk and Lugansk cities and towns -- any "uprising" was quickly supported by regular Russian special forces troops without markings -- then they would slide away to leave local puppets to claim the success of the "local" revolt. Any local opposition was quickly put down.That was how control in the Donbas was passed to the Russians
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It was not just Odesa -- across many cities the paid Russian thugs attempted to lead/promote/support/pay/recruit a small minority of locals to join .
What happened in Odesa represented a turning of the tide -- and showed the Russians that Ukrainians would fight -- and effectively.
Explaining more -- many of the Russian paid thugs were bused around in relatively large numbers and sent to create "support" etc and attempt to create violent scenes for the news -- ( the idea was to show Ukraine in chaos etc and in need of "help" via Russian occupation etc ) .
At the time --it was social media that saved Ukraine-- as activists gradually realised the Russian strategy and set about countering it via calls for help at the various locations being targeted. As an example -- in a central Ukrainian city --the call for help was to confront 4 buses on the way to a local demonstration( in support of a free Ukraine) and the locals responded in numbers-- as the route and location was publicised the buses were stopped 20 kms out of the city. More and more arrived until it became clear that the locals were more than ready to take them on -- the buses were turned around that day .
That strategy was repeated in quite a few cities-- and social media was crucial in the organisation to resist.
I am going to repeat jone favourite story of those days to illustrate why these groups were clearly not locals ( sorry Jon_) in Kharkiv -- a city in a extremely vulnerable position because of proximity to the Russian border -- the thugs were in hundreds -- and were attempting to lead an "uprising" of locals -- so they invaded and captured what they thought was the city/town hall ( centre of local government) --problem was they went to the most impressive building -- in the Opera House !!
In Donetsk and Lugansk cities and towns -- any "uprising" was quickly supported by regular Russian special forces troops without markings -- then they would slide away to leave local puppets to claim the success of the "local" revolt. Any local opposition was quickly put down.That was how control in the Donbas was passed to the Russians
Indeed the GRU ( Kremlin's military intelligence )were behind most of the skullduggery - but you gloss over how Poroshenko allowed Ukraine to be 'divvied up' in areas run by Oligarchs and their paid thugs, too ...
It's not that I do not disagree with much you post - you just see it through one set of eyes.
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RUSSIAN INVASION OF ESTONIA
EPIX, a premium cable TV channel, has a fictionalized series named BERLIN STATION. The story is about the CIA in modern day Berlin as it deals with contemporary political intrigue.
The most recent season just concluded. It centered on a Russian plot to regain Estonia. The CIA agents in Berlin sniff out the plot and remark how it mirrors the Russian playbook in Ukraine.
A Russian oligarch finances and directs the plot of initiating a civil war between Estonian citizens and the resident Russian minority, allowing the Russian army to move in to restore peace. The steps:
1. Little green men are deployed secretly in critical areas of Estonia along with a cache of lethal weapons. 2. The Estonia leader is assassinated (poison of course).
3. The next leader in line is attacked with "fake news," and attempts are made to assassinate her.
4. Strife is created between Estonian citizens and the Russian minority, such as tearing down Soviet monuments.
5. The government and utilities are hacked, enabling the shutdown of the electrical grid, placing Tallinn in darkness.
CIA, FIS and KGB agents and counteragents are everywhere with subplots galore involving NATO members, et al.
Not to worry, Captain America saves the day. "U-S-A!" "U-S-A!"
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“Indeed the GRU ( Kremlin's military intelligence )were behind most of the skullduggery - but “
the GRU is just one branch of the conglomerate that represents the center of power in Russia.
this organization is HUGE and contains a military intelligence branch as you mention but also crime syndicates, the biggest corporations and all the top oligarchs and political figures
the children of the top 100 in Russia are now assuming positions of leadership and power
in essence creating a new monarchy in Russia
100 years after murdering the Romanovs
Russians are creating their new Czars
if you know Russians, then you realize this is the only way for them....
“you gloss over how Poroshenko allowed Ukraine to be 'divvied up' in areas run by Oligarchs”
don’t attribute this political patronage system to Poroshenko, it was there before he was born, indeed its roots go back centuries, google “boyar”,
the current Ukrainian system of regional clans is nothing more than the traditional hierarchical structure of Russian/Ukrainian society reflecting concentrations of local power
"It would be more accurate if you used the term Kremlin, rather than Russians as it portrays Russians as 'bad' and Ukrainians as 'good' ..."
right...
so then, how does it sound if Churchill said, “the reichstag bombed Cruxhaven last night” instead of saying “the focking Germans did it”
or "Nashiis" as he called 'em
ya hear me bruv?
BTW, looks like the USA has agreed to a hostage exchange, Maria Butina for two American captives
I guess that means she won't be able to testify regarding using the NRA to launder money from Russians to Trump campaign...
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YOU, don't want to get, ME, Krmster ...
There's plenty of Russians who aren't proud of their leader..... what do you suggest they do ?
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"what do you suggest they do ? "
keep quiet about it, but I'm sure they already understand this...
did the RAF worry about the Germans who didn’t support Hitler in Dresden?
we’re at war me bruv, Russians are the enemy
in the next 2 yr Putin takes most of Ukraine
the truth about Trump and Russia comes out to the public and it’s worse than anyone could’ve imagined,
when the USA has a democratic congress and executive branch expect EXTREME measures taken in connection to Russia including removing them from SWIFT
expect Russia to take EXTREME countermeasures in relation to the West
we are already in a hybrid war with Russia, both USA and UK
because Trump is Putin’s pawn we’re not fighting back or even protecting ourself from Putin
but that will change and we will swing to the opposite extreme
there will be blood...and a new iron curtain will one day descend across Europe...
that is unless I can come up with a plan to prevent all this from happening!
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"what do you suggest they do ? "
keep quiet about it, but I'm sure they already understand this...
Have you woke up still on a high from last night ?! WHAT are you wittering about ...take a walk and clear your hard, man !
did the RAF worry about the Germans who didn’t support Hitler in Dresden?
Hardly, it was nearly five years into a vicious world war - and many question Bomber Harris' methods to this day
we’re at war me bruv, Russians are the enemy
:rolleyes:
in the next 2 yr Putin takes most of Ukraine
Then there would be war ... on a grander scale
we are already in a hybrid war with Russia, both USA and UK
..there are a LOT more players and they are not on the Kremln's side ...
because Trump is Putin’s pawn we’re not fighting back or even protecting ourself from Putin
but that will change and we will swing to the opposite extreme
there will be blood...and a new iron curtain will one day descend across Europe...
that is unless I can come up with a plan to prevent all this from happening!
Don't let us disturb the benefits of your first hit of the day and VVP has already protected his loved ones with their 18 digit MIR cards ...
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in the next 2 yr Putin takes most of Ukraine
Not very likely. Putin has been trying for the last few years to create at least a land bridge to Crimea and ultimately a land bridge to Moldova. He hasn't been able to.
Russia certainly has the military might to accomplish this but even Putin realizes the cost wouldn't just be war with Ukraine. The Americans and others would supply Ukraine with weapons. Putin couldn't claim those fighting Ukraine were soldiers there on vacation he'd have to admit it was war. Russia would suffer heavy losses.
The ruble now at about 65 rubles to 1 USD would probably drop to well over 100 rubles to 1 USD. Sanctions against the Russian state, Russian companies and individual Russians would intensify. The Russian economy would crash. The oligarchs would be very unhappy. Putin might even be in danger of being removed from power.
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"what do you suggest they do ? "
keep quiet about it, but I'm sure they already understand this...
Russians are not keeping quiet!
My wife, now in Siberia, says essentially everyone complains about Putin. Even taxi drivers will speak openly to riders.
The general complaint is that Putin does not care about the average Russian. Food prices are high, and the quality is bad for items such as seafood.
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Russians are not keeping quiet!
My wife, now in Siberia, says essentially everyone complains about Putin. Even taxi drivers will speak openly to riders.
The general complaint is that Putin does not care about the average Russian. Food prices are high, and the quality is bad for items such as seafood.
I know we all have a bias in the Ukraine/Russian conflict, and there is bias even among Russians about Putin after recent policy changes for pensioners. But the family I married into, has been greatly rewarded under Putin, some have prestigious positions. The Russians I know, support him strongly.
Since I haven't heard the Western Ukrainian argument presented well, I am sold on the Russian point of view for at least the time being and I do believe that the coup was just NGO neo Nazi stooges that would gladly sell out their neighbors for a few kopeks. But that is simply an opinion. I will just add, Russians today are walking an anxiety tightrope; the need for respect, acceptable borders coupled with irrational personal insecurity means this conflict will continue and eventually escalate. I don't agree with Krimsters bold speculation of two thirds in a few years, but Russians will continue to solidify their position despite Western Sanctions
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the truth about Trump and Russia comes out to the public and it’s worse than anyone could’ve imagined,
There you go again. Trump gave lethal weapons to Ukraine. Obama gave blankets and first-aid kits.
For once, put on your American Patriot hat and examine the alternatives. A reasonable person would want the current US administration to succeed diplomatically with Russia (and China, and NK, and VZ, and....).
when the USA has a democratic congress and executive branch expect EXTREME measures taken in connection to Russia including removing them from SWIFT.......
That indeed would be an incredibly aggressive action, with huge consequences to the Russian economy.
.....expect Russia to take EXTREME countermeasures in relation to the West
Of course! Putin pushed into a corner will threaten a huge response. Instead of bluffing as he has done in the past, he might cut off energy supplies to Europe, undertake a limited yet strategic military action, etc. Anything to create an economic downfall in the West.
Which begs the question, why shake a hornet's nest? The Democrats are reckless, yet I do not think they would go to such extremes.
Instead, let's see how this plays out. It is better to be talking with our enemies than risking a huge downside of diplomatic failure. It will take time, but Putin may have to make some major changes internationally and domestically to keep the support of Russian citizens.
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" we’re at war me bruv, Russians are the enemy
:rolleyes:
polnium-210 contamination in London for first hit
novichok for second hit resulting in death of UK civilan
financing Brexit...
shooting down Dutch airliner
and the beat goes on....
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“ well, I am sold on the Russian point of view for at least the time being”
this is like stating that you believe the tooth fairy is real 'cuz you know a 3 year old who thinks so, and you’d rather accept that view than unnecessarily burden yourself with the unfamiliar task of independent thought and analysis...
how charming the village idiots must be where you come from, yet paradoxically sad as well...
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Anything to create an economic downfall in the West.
Gator, Putin doesn't have enough economic clout to create an economic downfall in the west. Putin would have trouble economically hurting one of Russia's large trading partners such Germany let alone the EU. Russia certainly couldn't hurt the US economically.
I'm certain Putin realizes his economic limitations. Cut off gas supplies to the EU and there goes a major source of badly needed foreign revenue for Russia. Then the EU increases sanctions on Russian firms and people and more problems for Russia. Then the Russian people start bad mouthing Putin in public and then there's whispers in the halls of power in Russia about who would be a good replacement for Putin.
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Since I haven't heard the Western Ukrainian argument presented well, I am sold on the Russian point of view for at least the time being and I do believe that the coup was just NGO neo Nazi stooges that would gladly sell out their neighbors for a few kopeks.
It is not a "western" Ukrainian "argument" --it is Ukraine as a whole . Being sold on Russian lies and propaganda ( and comments from stupid insulated Russians) with the information available today -- plus the nonsense of a coup and the Nazi allegation-- all makes you a full on 100% idiotic moron. :cluebat:
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Gator, Putin doesn't have enough economic clout to create an economic downfall in the west. Putin would have trouble economically hurting one of Russia's large trading partners such Germany let alone the EU. Russia certainly couldn't hurt the US economically.
My use of the word "downfall" is overblown, yet Russia can create waves. Just consider the international economic effects of Soros moves to devalue the Thai Baht in 1997.
I'm certain Putin realizes his economic limitations. Cut off gas supplies to the EU and there goes a major source of badly needed foreign revenue for Russia.
What good is foreign revenue if your businesses and banks are cutoff from the international banking transaction system? I do not think you understand the huge economic impact on Russia of Krimster's aggressive idea to remove Russia from SWIFT.
Then the EU increases sanctions on Russian firms and people and more problems for Russia.
Not many sanctions worse than removing SWIFT. I suppose Russia could create an alternative transaction system for domestic transactions (ATMs), yet it would never be as effective.
Then the Russian people start bad mouthing Putin in public...
According to my wife, it's already happening.
....and then there's whispers in the halls of power in Russia about who would be a good replacement for Putin.
Putin knows if he is replaced he will be imprisoned (or worse). IMO he can not let it deteriorate that far. So I assert he will do something dramatic to prevent the SWIFT removal or something even more dramatic if that fails.
Just my opinion. No guarantee implied.
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"Gator, Putin doesn't have enough economic clout to create an economic downfall in the west. "
Osama Bin Ladin caused 100 billion of direct economic damage maybe a trillion loss in a recession and another trillion spent in Afghanistan
whadda ya think Putin and Iran could do, besides easily cutting off the flow of middle east oil and gas to the USA and elsewhere
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"Gator, Putin doesn't have enough economic clout to create an economic downfall in the west. "
Osama Bin Ladin caused 100 billion of direct economic damage maybe a trillion loss in a recession and another trillion spent in Afghanistan
Afghanistan is not the EU or US. Remember what happened to OBL? I doubt he spent his last few years prior to his death living the good life. Putin rattles the Russian economy too much and he might have a visit from a large group of Russian oligarchs and politicians suggesting it's time for him to retire.
whadda ya think Putin and Iran could do, besides easily cutting off the flow of middle east oil and gas to the USA and elsewhere
For the west, meaning Europe, the US, Canada, etc $100 billion is a rounding error in terms of their combined economies.
If Iran cut off the flow of oil through the Strait of Hormuz they might as well kiss their economy goodbye because most every country in the west would agree to sanctions against Iran. If Iran was stupid enough to launch an attack on American Navy vessels transiting the Strait the Iranian military in that part of Iran would be destroyed. If Iran persisted in their attacks and started lobbing missiles at Israel the war with Iran would be short. Occupation of Iran might be much longer.
Unless Russia wants war there's little Russia can do to the west, certainly not enough to lead to the economic downfall of the EU and US. Cut off the gas to the EU would hurt the EU economy but that lost revenue to Russia would hurt far more. The EU would survive it certainly wouldn't collapse. Would Russia? More importantly would Putin?
Russians like the better lifestyle imports from the around the world have given Russia. If Putin cut that off and Russia had to go back to a prolonged recession like in the late 90s or worse back to the lifestyle prior to the wall falling there very well might be a revolution in Russia. Russia would lose very badly in the long run.
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My use of the word "downfall" is overblown, yet Russia can create waves. Just consider the international economic effects of Soros moves to devalue the Thai Baht in 1997.
Why do you think Russia interfered in the 2016 election? It's probably the worst thing they could do. Russia couldn't launch sanctions against the EU and/or the US without doing more damage to themselves than to others.
What good is foreign revenue if your businesses and banks are cutoff from the international banking transaction system? I do not think you understand the huge economic impact on Russia of Krimster's aggressive idea to remove Russia from SWIFT.
Not many sanctions worse than removing SWIFT. I suppose Russia could create an alternative transaction system for domestic transactions (ATMs), yet it would never be as effective.
Gator I live in NYC there's been talk of cutting Russia off from SWIFT since before Russia invaded Ukraine or shoot down MH17. Where do you think Krimster got the idea? He didn't think of it on his own.
Russia is developing alternatives to SWIFT. Doing deals for oil/gas instead of cash. Making sure credit card clearing and data centers are in Russia so transactions don't have to be cleared from outside Russia.
Problems with Russia distancing itself from the EU and allying itself with China are many. For instance relying on Chinese banks for financing mega projects means Russia is at the mercy of the Chinese government. IOW Putin now must kiss Chinese butts instead of EU butts to get financing and Xi Jinping is far less forgiving than EU leaders.
According to my wife, it's already happening.
Same thing happened prior to the 2012 Russian presidential election. Even in the streets of Moscow there was talk of how weak Putin was. Putin turned up the heat and arrested a bunch of political rivals/enemies and stuffed the ballot boxes and won reelection. Then continued his strongman routine.
Putin knows if he is replaced he will be imprisoned (or worse). IMO he can not let it deteriorate that far. So I assert he will do something dramatic to prevent the SWIFT removal or something even more dramatic if that fails.
Just my opinion. No guarantee implied.
I agree. I can't see Putin being forced out and allowed to retire to Sochi and spend his days writing his memoirs and gardening. If there's a coup he'll be killed. I doubt the EU or China would offer him asylum.
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Since I haven't heard the Western Ukrainian argument presented well, I am sold on the Russian point of view for at least the time being and I do believe that the coup was just NGO neo Nazi stooges that would gladly sell out their neighbors for a few kopeks. But that is simply an opinion
First, most of those on Maidan were from Central Ukraine, not Western Ukraine. I know that as a fact because my better half was in Kyiv during Maidan. He has more Russian than Ukrainian blood, and spoke to protesters. He was not a supporter of Maidan, because he knew nothing would change. He told me from the earliest days that a "Maidan" would occur because oligarchs were losing power, and needed to change the regime to preserve their wealth. I think there is a significant amount of evidence he was correct, although the end result was blunted because of the war. He also stated the US government pushed the narrative, and he told me immediately after Yanukovych fled Ukraine, that Poroshenko would be the next Ukrainian president (before he'd declared an interest) because "That is what the Americans want."
Second, the number of "neo Nazis" in Ukraine is miniscule. On a per capita basis, it is dwarfed by the neo Nazi movement in the US. So, these so called "Nazis" (a Russian fabrication, ironically, sold mainly by their own fascist nationalists) could not have orchestrated Maidan. Svoboda is a far right nationalist party, but all of its leadership are former communist nomenklatura. Were they living in Russia, they'd be like your ex wife's family, awarded by the state. They are created primarily as a means to gain power, and from there, material wealth. Nothing more. If "nationalism" did not sell, and multiculturalism did, their members would all be multiculturalists.
This post was composed without the aid of google.
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“you gloss over how Poroshenko allowed Ukraine to be 'divvied up' in areas run by Oligarchs”
don’t attribute this political patronage system to Poroshenko, it was there before he was born, indeed its roots go back centuries, google “boyar”,
the current Ukrainian system of regional clans is nothing more than the traditional hierarchical
You need a history lesson. Boyars were not uniformly wealthy. Moreover, they only achieved that status if they did something for the state. Really, they were no different from feudal aristocracy anywhere in Europe.
The current oligarchs are a product of a corrupt communist system, not the distant past. Western Ukraine is far more corrupt now than is Central Ukraine, and that region had little corruption during the Austro-Hungarian Empire, or even in the interwar period.
This post was composed without the aid of google.
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My use of the word "downfall" is overblown, yet Russia can create waves. Just consider the international economic effects of Soros moves to devalue the Thai Baht in 1997.
Or Sterling ! ...
Not many sanctions worse than removing SWIFT. I suppose Russia could create an alternative transaction system for domestic transactions (ATMs), yet it would never be as effective.
They already have an alternative card payment system that would continue to work...
Putin knows if he is replaced he will be imprisoned (or worse). IMO he can not let it deteriorate that far. So I assert he will do something dramatic to prevent the SWIFT removal or something even more dramatic if that fails.
Just my opinion. No guarantee implied.
VVP keeps moving about the structures of those who MIGHT try to challenge him ....Russia is like a huge franchise system, now ... Franchises are removed or new controller put in- if they get too noisy, greedy or inefficient ......
It even works with the Church ....constant restructuring ....
VVP has turned Russia into a pyramid selling empire.... they tend to collapse from within ...
Also my opinion
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First, most of those on Maidan were from Central Ukraine, not Western Ukraine. I know that as a fact because my better half was in Kyiv during Maidan. He has more Russian than Ukrainian blood, and spoke to protesters. He was not a supporter of Maidan, because he knew nothing would change. He told me from the earliest days that a "Maidan" would occur because oligarchs were losing power, and needed to change the regime to preserve their wealth. I think there is a significant amount of evidence he was correct, although the end result was blunted because of the war. He also stated the US government pushed the narrative, and he told me immediately after Yanukovych fled Ukraine, that Poroshenko would be the next Ukrainian president (before he'd declared an interest) because "That is what the Americans want."
Second, the number of "neo Nazis" in Ukraine is miniscule. On a per capita basis, it is dwarfed by the neo Nazi movement in the US. So, these so called "Nazis" (a Russian fabrication, ironically, sold mainly by their own fascist nationalists) could not have orchestrated Maidan. Svoboda is a far right nationalist party, but all of its leadership are former communist nomenklatura. Were they living in Russia, they'd be like your ex wife's family, awarded by the state. They are created primarily as a means to gain power, and from there, material wealth. Nothing more. If "nationalism" did not sell, and multiculturalism did, their members would all be multiculturalists.
This post was composed without the aid of google.
I will have to disagree, the Social National Party of Ukraine members were the instrumental stooges needed by Western NGOs for the success of the coup, they shamelessly wore their neo Nazi colors while praising their anti Semitic anti Russian heritage. Changing their name, and buying off some ex communists hardly legitimizes the group. The Prostitutes on the streets of Kiev are only outdone by those officials that were bought off to support the coup. And that's the difference between my exs family in Russia, and those that benefitted in Ukraine. Those in my family were awarded for ability and merit, in Ukraine they were awarded for harlotry. I like the point Gator made, an invasion would take the ruble to 100 to 1, and Russia still might do it. Why? They are people of merit not harlotry, they have already easily survived 70 to 1. Russians wont back down, and Ukraine is just screwing themselves and their future by listening to the West and not reaching some agreement with Moscow
btw- At first I thought your statement about Neo Nazis in the USA was a ridiculous comparison, as in the USA they are just stupid kids with shaved heads with some low success white trash thrown in the mix. But, there is an observation to be made. The US voters would never allow their ideology in government, Ukraines voters embraced it, at least those in the West and Central(cough cough)
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It is not a "western" Ukrainian "argument" --it is Ukraine as a whole . Being sold on Russian lies and propaganda ( and comments from stupid insulated Russians) with the information available today -- plus the nonsense of a coup and the Nazi allegation-- all makes you a full on 100% idiotic moron. :cluebat:
Yep- you just confirmed you are 200% idiot. :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat:
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JayH, no need to use "outback" bushman language here!!!
after Paul Manafort engineered yanukovych's election
the people realized yanukovych was controlled by Putin so they had a revolution!!!
then Paul Manafort engineered Trump's election
then the people realized Trump was controlled by Putin so they had a revolution!!!
notice a pattern?
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I will have to disagree, the Social National Party of Ukraine members were the instrumental stooges needed by Western NGOs for the success of the coup, they shamelessly wore their neo Nazi colors while praising their anti Semitic anti Russian heritage.
No, that is untrue. Svoboda is an ultra nationalist party, I don't disagree with that. But it is not anti Semitic. Vitaly Portnikov, a Ukrainian Jewish journalist, has written extensively about Svoboda. One of his conclusions is the party is not anti Semitic. Furthermore, Svoboda was not "instrumental" in Maidan.
Perhaps you should read more on the issue before making such broad and inaccurate statements. You may also read about what Moscow did in Western Ukraine during Soviet times to understand why this reactionary party had any popularity, and why nationalism is resurgent in all FSU nations, including Russia, where actual anti Semites have the backing of the president.
Changing their name, and buying off some ex communists hardly legitimizes the group.
There was no "buying off" of ex communists. You obviously understand virtually nothing of the nature of post Soviet societies.
The Prostitutes on the streets of Kiev are only outdone by those officials that were bought off to support the coup.
There was no coup. Yanukovych was in the process of being impeached. Given his Party of Regions held the balance of power in the very Rada that impeached Yanukovych, the narrative of a coup is pretty difficult to swallow.
And that's the difference between my exs family in Russia, and those that benefitted in Ukraine. Those in my family were awarded for ability and merit, in Ukraine they were awarded for harlotry
BWAHAHAHA. Right . . . I guess that everyone in Russia who just happened to be a member of the former nomenklatura has managed to become an oligarch by merit, or has managed to run the country solely on their brains.
It's difficult to reach an agreement with a country that invades you.
btw- At first I thought your statement about Neo Nazis in the USA was a ridiculous comparison, as in the USA they are just stupid kids with shaved heads with some low success white trash thrown in the mix. But, there is an observation to be made. The US voters would never allow their ideology in government, Ukraines voters embraced it, at least those in the West and Central(cough cough)
Again I am laughing. You have a racist xenophobe in the WH, his former A-G is known as a racist who relished the thought of locking up illegal immigrant children (where thousands have been sexually abused) away from their parents, his supporters are emboldened enough to hold white supremacist rallies which Trump himself refuses to condemn, and you think Americans hold some moral superiority.
Go have a look at who is elected in Western Ukraine to the Rada. Even were I to accept your assertions, which I don't, Svoboda went from 37 seats as a reaction to Yanukovych's division of Ukraine on ethnic lines (krimster has pointed it out - under Manafort's "guidance", Yanukovych ran a campaign pitting the vote rich Russian speaking east against ethnic Ukrainians) to 6 seats in the 2014 election. Can you understand why that happened?
The Pew Centre did a survey in 2016 in Central and Eastern Europe on attitudes toward Jews That survey found that anti Semitism was lower in Ukraine than virtually any country in Europe. Given ts post Maidan PM was Jewish, its current PM is Jewish, and its president has a Jewish father, and this has not lead to all these rabid anti Semites to protest, let alone start a war on the streets, the idea that Ukrainians are rabid anti Semites is laughable.
This post was composed without the aid of google.
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Russians are not keeping quiet!
YES , they are
1/ Do you see a change in policy ? NO
2/ Do you see opposition demonstrations ? NOT Often and the rules to hold them / create an opposition party are farcical
3/ What you DO see is creeping legislation that erodes the constitution "no censorship" ....
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YES , they are
1/ Do you see a change in policy ? NO
The Russian government writes law in Russia. As far as I know there's no mechanism to enact legislation sponsored by Russian citizens into law.
2/ Do you see opposition demonstrations ? NOT Often and the rules to hold them / create an opposition party are farcical
In Moscow there is opposition demonstrations all the time during elections. These demonstrations aren't "seen" because most/almost all of the major media in Russia is either literally owned and operated by the state or by those friendly to the state.
Another factor in the lack or limited opposition is how demonstrations are suppressed by the state. When I lived in Moscow I witnessed the OMON and other Russian law enforcement groups operating. Locals I was with told me that if the OMON and other such groups arrive I should leave immediately. You don't want to be in the area. These groups do not care if you're a tourist or local they will rough up anyone in the area.
3/ What you DO see is creeping legislation that erodes the constitution "no censorship" ....
Another reason why you don't "see" demonstrations taking place. Putin is taking lessons from the Chinese government and not just enacting legislation to limit access to the Internet but also physically blocking the Internet.
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Russians are not keeping quiet!
YES , they are....What you DO see is creeping legislation that erodes the constitution "no censorship" ....
I convey my wife's observations of ordinary Russians, not a political analysis.
For years and years ordinary Russians have generally been supportive of Putin. She was surprised during her recent trip to Russia to observe that this is no longer the case with many of her friends as well as some strangers she met in public (taxi drivers).
Perhaps my wife's observations are tainted by an important personal change: she now considers America, not Russia, as her country. She was never a fan of Putin, yet for the 13 years I have known her, she thought Putin's leadership most important given Russia's potential for instability. She doesn't feel Putin needs to be replaced; instead, he needs to make changes benefiting the ordinary Russian.
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I agree. I can't see Putin being forced out and allowed to retire to Sochi and spend his days writing his memoirs and gardening. If there's a coup he'll be killed. I doubt the EU or China would offer him asylum.
Sounds funny about the coup or seeking asylum in EU/China. Seems like you have very limited valid information who is Mr. Putin, how he will act and his potential to strike back.
His recent words give some rough idea about: "We would go to heaven, they would simply die."
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I will have to disagree,.
If you want to know what students in the genetically anti Semitic Western Ukraine believed, read this -
http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-radical-skepticism-of-ukraines-students (http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-radical-skepticism-of-ukraines-students)
This is a map of the Pew Research Center findings I mentioned above -
(http://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/FT_18.03.26_polandHolocaustLaws_map.png?w=640)
Google was used for the link to the article and the map.
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The Russian propaganda factories activities have been exposed --this story again highlighting how dangerous they can be.
Of note here is the timeframe-- when Russia invaded Ukraine and was trying to destabilise as a pre cursor to a wider invasion . On this forum --there was plenty of evidence of teh BS being swallowed and repeated-in fact argued by people still here today-- and of course-the many trolls passing through at that time.
The methodolgy used on Ukraine by the Russian troll factories has proven effective in creating mayhem in the politics of supposedly sophisticated western countries to this day.
The timeframe of the research was from January 2010 to May 2018, though the majority of tweets were tweeted after 2014, particularly in 2014-2015
How Russian “troll factory” tried to influence Ukraine’s agenda: analysis of 755,000 tweets
What is proven
For a little over 8 years, in the database of the “troll factory” VoxUkraine found 774,957 tweets about Ukraine generated by 1,369 accounts. Before the annexation of Crimea, twitter bots showed almost no activity. The accounts began to tweet more actively at the end of 2014. The real “twitter-storm” was on 18 July 2014 — the day after the MH17 crash. On this day, the accounts tweeted over 44,000 messages, and on the next day over 25,000.
• HYBRID WAR
In October 2018, Twitter published a database of over 9 million tweets that, according to the social network, is affiliated with the Russian “Internet Research Agency.” Ukrainian think tank VoxUkraine identified more than 750,000 tweets related to Ukraine by keywords, and analyzed how the Russian “troll factory” has been working against Ukraine; and who, how and what has been tweeted.
How tweets were selected
The data published by Twitter contains information on 3,667 accounts associated with the Russian Internet Research Agency. The accounts, since closed, generated a total of over nine million tweets.
To determine which tweets are related to Ukraine, VoxCheck used a number of keywords such as “Donbas,” “South-East,” “Boeing,” “Bandera,” “fascism,” “Kyiv,” “revolution,” “Maidan”, “Crimea”, “Poroshenko”, “Civil War”, “MH-17” and others. Overall, 774,957 tweets contained these keywords. They were generated by 1,369 accounts. 95% of the smallest accounts remained anonymous due to a decision taken by Twitter. Among the top 5% were both pages of media (“The Bulletin of Moscow,” “The Bulletin of St. Petersburg” (a total of 24 regional “Newspapers”), “Federal News Agency,” “News of Kyiv”) and also private pages and burlesque pages such as “Maxim Dementyev,” “Ramzan Kadyrov” (parody page), “Lavrov’s muesli,” “Cold War 2.0.”
Timeline of activity
The timeframe of the research was from January 2010 to May 2018, though the majority of tweets were tweeted after 2014, particularly in 2014-2015.
http://euromaidanpress.com/2019/03/14/how-russian-troll-factory-tried-to-influence-ukraines-agenda-analysis-of-755000-tweets/
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Jay, Both sides use propaganda. Look at the ridiculous article posted right before yours. Ukraine has 1/3rd the anti Semitism as Russia and a 1/4 of that in Romania? ROTFLMAO
Only naïve westerners would believe that NGO propaganda. Its like RT publishing 5% racists in Mississippi but 20% in Alabama and Arkansas
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Ukraine puts Al Bano on its black list :o
(http://www.ansa.it/english/news/2019/03/11/ukraine-puts-al-bano-on-its-black-list_02dfd820-c253-4705-aa1e-19152a3412b9.html)
(http://www.ansa.it/webimages/img_457x/2019/3/11/d95c215516d5a96b60ac2780f210cbe5.jpg)
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Ukraine puts Al Bano on its black list :o
Is he from Albania ?
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Is he from Albania?
No, from Cellino San Marco in Puglie, just opposite Albania. He's 75, but always dyes his hair jet black ;).
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No, from Cellino San Marco in Puglie, just opposite Albania. He's 75, but always dyes his hair jet black ;).
Ahh, so that's how he made their black list.
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Jay, Both sides use propaganda. Look at the ridiculous article posted right before yours. Ukraine has 1/3rd the anti Semitism as Russia and a 1/4 of that in Romania? ROTFLMAO
Only naïve westerners would believe that NGO propaganda. Its like RT publishing 5% racists in Mississippi but 20% in Alabama and Arkansas
I didn’t realize an independent American think tank was in the pocket of Ukrainian nationalists.
Yeah, those horrid Ukrainians are all anti Semites! Somehow they missed the fact their current PM and his predecessor were Jewish, two of the three candidates for the presidency are Jewish (the third has a Jewish father, so not Jewish by Jewish law, but Jewish enough for anti Semites), both his powerful former chief of staff and his current chief if staff are Jewish, the mayor of Kharkiv is Jewish, and Dnipropetrovsk is run by a Jewish mafia.
Jew hatred goes back a long way in Russia-the Pale of Settlement, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, attacks on Jews after the collapse of the USSR (my masseuse emigrated from St. Petersburg, where he had a very comfortable life, because of growing anti Semitism), and several attacks on Jews praying at synagogues over the years.
My grandfather was a non religious Jew, so perhaps I’m more sensitive to this issue than others.
This post was composed without the aid of google.
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The events this day changed the course of history. Ukrainians turned the tide -- and people all over Ukraine realised they could stand up to Russia.
The fact that it is/was even investigated is a plus for Ukraine -- despite the substantial imperfections. By way of contrast- also in the news today was the granting of Russian citizenship ( protection) of 2 instigators Ukraine wants to face justice.
It is five years since the riots and fire in Odesa on 2 May 2014, in which 48 people lost their lives. The events that triggered the riots were probably part of a plan to see Odesa plunge into the same bloody violence as the Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts, a plan involving Russian President Vladimir Putin’s senior adviser, Sergei Glazyev. The plan failed, and Russia turned instead to creating a toxic propaganda narrative about a fictitious ‘massacre’. It is a narrative that Russia has spent a lot of money fostering, but one that the Ukrainian authorities have failed to properly counter through their unwillingness to adequately investigate and ensure accountability for the events that day.
Russia’s most toxic lies about a fictitious ‘Odesa Massacre’
There was no ‘massacre’ on 2 May 2014, but there were very bad mistakes made. There is also evidence of individuals within the police force or prosecutor’s service having helped those who should have faced the most serious of charges to escape, been involved in providing weapons, etc.
The above-mentioned IAP report noted evidence suggesting some police complicity, as well as omissions, and the fatal delay of the emergency services, and advised that the investigation needed to be carried out by a body independent of the Interior Ministry. Those recommendations were ignored.
While some of the officials fled almost immediately, it seems likely that Volodymyr Bodelan was allowed to ‘disappear’ in 2016. At the time of the tragedy, he was the head of the emergency services who took more than 40 minutes to arrive, despite repeated and increasingly urgent calls from people in the building or nearby. There is now evident obstruction of the trial of his subordinates as well.
http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1556716320