The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis

[AC]

By only trying to call out certain comments (strictly because you disagree with the political position behind it) you have tacitly approved of the others...whether you like it or not. 


quickly comparing the current situation to Neville Chamberlin is just a non-thinking shortcut and twaddle.   


I'm starting to believe that you will be very disappointed if this situation is resolved in such a way.


Fathertime!   

So you deny that Russia has invaded Ukraine and that Ukraine had a right to defend their sovereign territory?  Twaddle indeed.

[fathertime]

So you deny that Russia has invaded Ukraine and that Ukraine had a right to defend their sovereign territory?  Twaddle indeed.

What is 'twaddle' is you asking silly questions!   I didn't say either of those things.  Yes twaddle indeed. 


Fathertime! 

[AC]

What is 'twaddle' is you asking silly questions!   I didn't say either of those things.  Yes twaddle indeed. 


Fathertime!

Okay, so are you now admitting that Russia did indeed invade Ukraine?  And what is your definition of "win/win"?  My definition is Russia pulls out of E. Ukraine entirely, stops arming and paying their mercenaries there, and gives back Crimea and then pays Ukraine war damages.

[fathertime]

Okay, so are you now admitting that Russia did indeed invade Ukraine?  And what is your definition of "win/win"?  My definition is Russia pulls out of E. Ukraine entirely, stops arming and paying their mercenaries there, and gives back Crimea and then pays Ukraine war damages.

You must be confusing me with somebody else.  I wasn't in the camp that was saying that Russia wasn't involved with the separatists.


I think the win/win you have written is pie in the sky.  An end to hostilities and regular people in the regions back to doing regular things is a lofty enough goal.  The way that will happen is if both sides get some of what they want.
Fathertime!   

[Boethius]

Putin has stated that Russia wants a veto on Ukraine developing closer ties to the EU.  That is not going to happen, so there can be no "win win".

[fathertime]

Putin has stated that Russia wants a veto on Ukraine developing closer ties to the EU.  That is not going to happen, so there can be no "win win".

can you provide a link showing that quote?..wants vs demands is a big difference.


I'd say most everything is negotiable at this point.


Fathertime! 

[Boethius]

You can google it.  Lavrov made this statement even will the Minsk Accord was being negotiated.
Russia does not want the Donbas.  They want the region to be an anchor around Kyiv's neck.  At this point, either it has to come back into the fold as it did, or it can be independent.  It is not a vital area to Ukraine or its future.
 

[fathertime]

You can google it.  Lavrov made this statement even will the Minsk Accord was being negotiated.
Russia does not want the Donbas.  They want the region to be an anchor around Kyiv's neck.  At this point, either it has to come back into the fold as it did, or it can be independent.  It is not a vital area to Ukraine or its future.

just googled it...don't see it...i'd like to see the statement in context that YOU brought it up in. I did see that he made a statement like that regarding Moldova.


Fathertime!

[AC]

just googled it...don't see it...i'd like to see the statement in context that YOU brought it up in. I did see that he made a statement like that regarding Moldova.


Fathertime!

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/russias-lavrov-warns-ukraine-against-joining-nato-slams-u-s-n195396

[fathertime]

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/russias-lavrov-warns-ukraine-against-joining-nato-slams-u-s-n195396

Thank you for providing the link, but that was regarding NATO...Is that what Boethius was referring to when she talked of closer ties to the EU?  If so, it was misleading.  There is a big difference between joining NATO andcloser ties to the EU. 


Fathertime!

[AC]

Thank you for providing the link, but that was regarding NATO...Is that what Boethius was referring to when she talked of closer ties to the EU?  If so, it was misleading.  There is a big difference between joining NATO andcloser ties to the EU. 

http://www.euronews.com/2014/09/17/russia-warns-ukraine-over-historic-deal-with-the-eu/

[fathertime]

http://www.euronews.com/2014/09/17/russia-warns-ukraine-over-historic-deal-with-the-eu/

Thank you for attempting to provide the link/quote Boethius was referring to...BUT I'm not seeing the quote where V. Putin was wanting to have "VETO POWER"   My impression is she was referring to something else, or that the quote doesn't exist. 
Fathertime! 

[Boethius]

Putin stated that Russia should have the right to determine whether or not Ukraine joins the EU.  He has stated that to Poroshenko, and to Merkel.  Merkel countered it in a speech a few weeks ago.


Meanwhile, a rebuttal to any "win win" scenarios.



http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/12/11/peace-in-ukraine-by-appeasing-putin-refuting-the-ill-informed-proposal/2/

[AC]

Meanwhile Russia has been causing concern in the Baltics.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/11/russia-military-action-escalate-tension-baltic-nato

[fathertime]

Putin stated that Russia should have the right to determine whether or not Ukraine joins the EU.  He has stated that to Poroshenko, and to Merkel.  Merkel countered it in a speech a few weeks ago.


Meanwhile, a rebuttal to any "win win" scenarios.



http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/12/11/peace-in-ukraine-by-appeasing-putin-refuting-the-ill-informed-proposal/2/

I read the link you provided to back up your earlier statement regarding putin wanting veto power over Ukraine getting closer to the EU.  If this is the resource you are talking about, it doesn't appear to back up your statement.  I don't see the Putin quote.  I don't see any discussion about the conversation with Merkel you are referring to.    If these conversations exist and are quoted from a reasonably reliable source, I would be able to accept them as probably being true....but thus far I don't see that, but I'd like to so the conversation can move past this issue. 
Fathertime! 

[Boethius]

I didn't provide a link re Putin, and the link I provided was not about that particular statement.  I've moved on.


Most of my readings are in Ukrainian, which won't help you much.  Putin made the statement directly to Poroshenko.  It was referenced in speeches by both Merkel and Barrosso, the last, about 3 weeks ago.

[AC]

Baltic states have a very good reason to be wary of Russia -- just look at their past history with the Bear.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/18/baltic-states-wary-russia-strident-estonia-latvia-lithuania-nato

[fathertime]

I didn't provide a link re Putin, and the link I provided was not about that particular statement.  I've moved on.


Most of my readings are in Ukrainian, which won't help you much.  Putin made the statement directly to Poroshenko.  It was referenced in speeches by both Merkel and Barrosso, the last, about 3 weeks ago.

Well then it can't be discussed if you have 'moved on' but I have yet to see reason to say it isn't possible for an agreement as stated in that earlier link you provided regarding the win/win. ... At this point I will move on from that topic also unless there is more you or anyone else would like to add.


Fathertime!

[AC]

Well then it can't be discussed if you have 'moved on' but I have yet to see reason to say it isn't possible for an agreement as stated in that earlier link you provided regarding the win/win. ... At this point I will move on from that topic also unless there is more you or anyone else would like to add.


Fathertime!

There simply is no "win/win" as Putin cannot be at all trusted.

[mendeleyev]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/david-j-kramer-there-will-be-no-win-win-deal-with-putin/2014/12/11/a70df8c4-7fd2-11e4-9f38-95a187e4c1f7_story.html

I agree with Kramer (article above) that the idea of "win-win" is something that Mr. Putin finds to be a weakness of the West. It would be laughable, if not overly silly, to expect Moscow to enter into any kind of compromise that somehow purported to defend the sovereignty of Ukraine's borders should they be revised. Why? Because Moscow had already signed an agreement to honor and defend Ukraine's standing borders -- when Ukraine agreed to give up nuclear weapons. That was the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances.

Russia now claims that it is not bound to that agreement any longer given the crisis in Ukraine. Translation: we will honor international agreements when we think best, and find an excuse when it no longer suits us.

Earlier this year Russia proposed to the EU that a trilateral agreement be considered on Ukraine, specifically that Russia be included in the negotiations of Ukraine's EU Association proposal. The proposal suggested that Russia be given a vote on if and when Ukraine could enter into EU pacts. http://euobserver.com/foreign/124933

Previously European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso had said: "What we cannot accept is a condition on a bilateral agreement to have a kind of a possible veto of a third country. This is contrary to all principles of international law." http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-2515461

Russia has negotiated with the EU on the extent and timing of Ukraine's EU partnership. http://en.delfi.lt/eu/association-agreement-with-eu-victory-for-ukraine-or-russia.d?id=65871160


When Mr. Putin spoke to EU representatives in Minsk (26-27 August), he said, "As you may know, Ukraine is deeply integrated into the CIS economic space. Alongside Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan, it is actually an inseparable part of the largest economic complex in the world, which took ages, rather than years or decades, to create – and this is no exaggeration."

"Russia has stated on numerous occasions that full acceptance by our Ukrainian friends of all the tariff liberalisation requirements and the adoption of the European Union technical, sanitary and veterinary norms will have a negative impact on the scope and dynamics of trade and investment cooperation in Eurasia." "Not to mention the fact that all these norms – the EU sanitary norms and regulations that we do not apply or apply only partially, and the technical regulations will actually close the Ukrainian market for our goods, for goods from the Customs Union and Russia." http://eng.kremlin.ru/transcripts/22851

DCFTARussia was successful in convincing the EU to delay the full DCFTA agreement until 2016 at minimum.

http://www.economonitor.com/thoughtsacrossatlantic/2014/09/16/is-postponing-the-eu-trade-agreement-harmful-to-ukraine/
http://www.euronews.com/2014/09/16/ukraine-critics-denounce-russian-influence-over-eu-trade-deal/
http://www.euronews.com/2014/09/16/eu-and-ukraine-parliaments-hail-historic-treaty/


Moscow is also pressuring Moldova and Georgia in their attempts to sign EU association agreements.
http://www.euronews.com/2014/09/16/eu-and-ukraine-parliaments-hail-historic-treaty/
http://www.bne.eu/content/story/pro-eu-parties-reach-coalition-deal-moldova-moscow-cries-foul

[Doll]

Meanwhile Russia has been causing concern in the Baltics.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/11/russia-military-action-escalate-tension-baltic-nato

What are you suggesting? Stay calm while NATO is getting ready to fight?
Russia has the point

[Doll]

Actually, Mendi provided very good links that explain Russia's POV

[lordtiberius]

You cannot reason with these people.

[fathertime]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/david-j-kramer-there-will-be-no-win-win-deal-with-putin/2014/12/11/a70df8c4-7fd2-11e4-9f38-95a187e4c1f7_story.html

I agree with Kramer (article above) that the idea of "win-win" is something that Mr. Putin finds to be a weakness of the West. It would be laughable, if not overly silly, to expect Moscow to enter into any kind of compromise that somehow purported to defend the sovereignty of Ukraine's borders should they be revised. Why? Because Moscow had already signed an agreement to honor and defend Ukraine's standing borders -- when Ukraine agreed to give up nuclear weapons. That was the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances.
 

Thanks Mendeleyev for providing both the link and your opinion.  I am not surprised the McCain Institute has such a viewpoint as I feel practically anything associated with John McCain is going to be too hawkish. 


It is interesting how the win/win is suddenly getting so much airtime finally.  I continue to believe that is the most likely way to see this end...or I guess they can just continue to fight it out.


Fathertime!

[Muzh]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/david-j-kramer-there-will-be-no-win-win-deal-with-putin/2014/12/11/a70df8c4-7fd2-11e4-9f38-95a187e4c1f7_story.html

I agree with Kramer (article above) that the idea of "win-win" is something that Mr. Putin finds to be a weakness of the West. It would be laughable, if not overly silly, to expect Moscow to enter into any kind of compromise that somehow purported to defend the sovereignty of Ukraine's borders should they be revised. Why? Because Moscow had already signed an agreement to honor and defend Ukraine's standing borders -- when Ukraine agreed to give up nuclear weapons. That was the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances.

Russia now claims that it is not bound to that agreement any longer given the crisis in Ukraine. Translation: we will honor international agreements when we think best, and find an excuse when it no longer suits us.

Earlier this year Russia proposed to the EU that a trilateral agreement be considered on Ukraine, specifically that Russia be included in the negotiations of Ukraine's EU Association proposal. The proposal suggested that Russia be given a vote on if and when Ukraine could enter into EU pacts. http://euobserver.com/foreign/124933

Previously European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso had said: "What we cannot accept is a condition on a bilateral agreement to have a kind of a possible veto of a third country. This is contrary to all principles of international law." http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-2515461

Russia has negotiated with the EU on the extent and timing of Ukraine's EU partnership. http://en.delfi.lt/eu/association-agreement-with-eu-victory-for-ukraine-or-russia.d?id=65871160


When Mr. Putin spoke to EU representatives in Minsk (26-27 August), he said, "As you may know, Ukraine is deeply integrated into the CIS economic space. Alongside Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan, it is actually an inseparable part of the largest economic complex in the world, which took ages, rather than years or decades, to create – and this is no exaggeration."

"Russia has stated on numerous occasions that full acceptance by our Ukrainian friends of all the tariff liberalisation requirements and the adoption of the European Union technical, sanitary and veterinary norms will have a negative impact on the scope and dynamics of trade and investment cooperation in Eurasia." "Not to mention the fact that all these norms – the EU sanitary norms and regulations that we do not apply or apply only partially, and the technical regulations will actually close the Ukrainian market for our goods, for goods from the Customs Union and Russia." http://eng.kremlin.ru/transcripts/22851

DCFTARussia was successful in convincing the EU to delay the full DCFTA agreement until 2016 at minimum.

http://www.economonitor.com/thoughtsacrossatlantic/2014/09/16/is-postponing-the-eu-trade-agreement-harmful-to-ukraine/
http://www.euronews.com/2014/09/16/ukraine-critics-denounce-russian-influence-over-eu-trade-deal/
http://www.euronews.com/2014/09/16/eu-and-ukraine-parliaments-hail-historic-treaty/


Moscow is also pressuring Moldova and Georgia in their attempts to sign EU association agreements.
http://www.euronews.com/2014/09/16/eu-and-ukraine-parliaments-hail-historic-treaty/
http://www.bne.eu/content/story/pro-eu-parties-reach-coalition-deal-moldova-moscow-cries-foul

Oh boy.


Now Mendy, look what you've done to Mr. Fathead.