2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)

[Grumpy]

Russia on Tuesday reported 24,702 new coronavirus cases and 780 deaths — a new single-day mortality record — as the country battles the surging Delta variant.

Russia's Federal Air Transport Agency has ordered that airlines test all pilots and flight attendants for coronavirus once every 72 hours, the RBC news website reported.

Russia’s Black Sea coastal resorts including Sochi will require visiting tourists to vaccinate against the coronavirus within three days of arrival starting Aug. 1, regional authorities announced Friday.

St. Petersburg authorities will ban gatherings of more than 75 people from July 13, city officials announced. Case numbers have spiked in Russia's second-largest city as it has hosted seven matches in the football tournament.

— Supplies of Russia's EpiVacCorona vaccine have run out in Moscow, city authorities said Thursday, leaving Sputnik V and Sputnik Light as the only remaining vaccine options for Muscovites after supplies of the CoviVac ran out on June 22.

— Starting July 1, the Krasnodar region — where Russia's resort city of Sochi is located — will require all hotels and guest houses to obtain a negative PCR test or vaccination certificate from guests. Starting Aug. 1, the region will ban entry to resorts for unvaccinated vacationers.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/07/13/coronavirus-in-russia-the-latest-news-july-13-a69117

[GQBlues]

GQ,

You propose a good line of discourse, but before doing so, and I'm confident you will agree, it is important to understand the source(s) of data, what it represents, and limitations in this case the VAERS database.

Before we even attempt, could you kindly review information at the following link with an open mind?  http://www.factcheck.org/2021/03/scicheck-viral-posts-misuse-vaers-data-to-make-false-claims-about-covid-19-vaccines/  It explains pretty well what VAERS data is and its limitations.  Also http://vaxopedia.org/2016/09/09/vaers/ and supporting links in the article.

In addition, http://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html shows the results of CDC's evaluation of VAERS data.  If you don't read any of the above, at least read this one.

Just to prevent us from going on wild goose chases.  Or were you referring to another data source?

Note:
1. I read through all the links you provided.
2. FTR, I am neither pro or against the vaccine/s.
3. I used only the available *raw* data we have on hand. World-o-meter / VAERS.
4. The death rates in both pools were extracted only from those who received medical attention. Not total vaccinated, nor total afflicted of COVID. I threw this out of the equation for the simple reason we have no idea how many really are/were asymptomatic.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
BC-
The links you provided basically tries to make us believe that the report (which are ordered by, managed by, provided by the very same governmental health agency/body that provided all the information we mostly adhere/d to in the US) - should not be taken seriously.

We can agree to disagree, but for me I have a hard time making sense out of a report (their own report) telling me not to believe what is being reported because it is not conclusive that the vaccine is the cause of these deaths. Really?!?

a) At the current state, why published a report, then at the same time, discredit it? Especially considering the better half of the population are still unvaccinated. CDC had fumbled so many things, in so many ways, on repeated occasions since this pandemic started, that for them to be doing this at this juncture is just simply *stupid*.

b) Wouldn’t it be prudent to find out the ‘cause’ of deaths considering this is an incredibly important information surrounding the vaccine at this time?

Don’t mind me if I have more than an ounce of distrust about the validity of the *disclaimer*. No need to rehash how many times CDC/Fauci/DHHS, etc...vacillated the past year and a half. So it's difficult to just take whatever comes out of these guys at face value, you know.

c) Lastly, the reported CFR for COVID is also a mixed bag itself to begin with. We know for a fact the total death count consists of those that died *of*, and *with*, COVID-19. There’s been various reports (please don’t ask for link/s, search for yourself. I despise Google because they have been proven to manipulate what people can and cannot ‘see’ in the internet these days) of deaths being lumped as COVID fatality for nefarious reasons.

I can only hope you can take the time to understand my reasons above, the way I took the time to look at your links and tried to make sense of your perspective. Having said this, *strictly* working ONLY with the raw data we have on hand; would BillyB’s argument in this instance proves his point with you?

[BC]

I can only hope you can take the time to understand my reasons above, the way I took the time to look at your links and tried to make sense of your perspective. Having said this, *strictly* working ONLY with the raw data we have on hand; would BillyB’s argument in this instance proves his point with you?

GQ,

That your opinion seems to be that all these agencies are not trustworthy is noted.  I have little qualm with that.

The conclusion, related in the CDC link I provided, pasted below, seems to be quite representative of findings by the EU EMA from what I have read over here.  I have guests coming over for an evening of pool fun and grilling USA style, but will try to remember and dig up what EMA has recorded/found.

Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare. More than 331 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through July 6, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 5,946 reports of death (0.0018%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause. Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem. A review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records, has not established a causal link to COVID-19 vaccines. However, recent reports indicate a plausible causal relationship between the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine and TTS, a rare and serious adverse event—blood clots with low platelets—which has caused deaths.

As for experience, I do know several people that have died of COVID, but do not know anyone that has died from the vaccination.

[GQBlues]

Enjoy your evening, BC. Don't sweat the small stuff. Was just curious if there's an inclination on your side to 'see' the opposing perspective. Now we know..

As this will soon arrive to your attention across the Atlantic, there's now an aggressive campaign by the US government (Biden admin.), including the DNC (Democratic National Committee), to combat what they label as fear-mongering against the vaccine by the conservative lot. They are calling text messaging carriers / social media venues to intervene and/or intercept text messages / posts by the public and amongst themselves; to interject their *fact checking* material anytime they deemed necessary to do so.

We have arrived at a point where having an opinion, if counter to that of the mainstream progressive narrative, as a 'conservative fear-mongering' jive, which must be suppressed and/or censored.

Beyond the recently initiated approval to deploy military-style, high resolution, surveillance cameras to most if not all government offices and installation these days; privacy, freedom of expression / choice and civil liberties I've come to love about the US - have now all been just a thing of the past.

Have a good evening, BC.

[BC]

GQ,

Another thought to ponder.

The numbers I've seen thrown around of those estimated to have been infected with COVID ranges somewhere between 30 and 70 million.  More than 600 thousand have died.

Well over 150 million in the US are fully vaccinated. 6000, even 10,000 deaths depending on which sit you peruse, most of which cannot even be directly attributed to the vaccine with certainty, are well within the expected 'normal' death rates for various aliments like heart attacks etc for the appropriate age groups.

The official VERS site http://vaers.hhs.gov/ is very complicated, but has better analytical reporting features than the openvaers.com site you may be referring to that retrieves raw data from the official VAERS.

VAERS is run by HHS, who is 'boss' of both FDA and CDC, all part of the organizations you seem to distrust.  Openvaers.com takes the official VAERS data and shows it from their POV of people, or loved ones, that are perceived to have been affected by the vaccine.  I don't want to discredit Openvaers at all, just so you know where they are coming from and how they present the same data, and limitations.  I wish the official site was as easily navigated, but it is made for other purposes and not really a public facing tool.  It allows a deeper view into the data and capability to pick out events that stick out, i.e. their assessment of risk factors with the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine and TTS

I hope you find this post somewhat helpful, or at least thought-provoking.

[GQBlues]

GQ,

Another thought to ponder.

The numbers I've seen thrown around of those estimated to have been infected with COVID ranges somewhere between 30 and 70 million.  More than 600 thousand have died.

Well over 150 million in the US are fully vaccinated. 6000, even 10,000 deaths depending on which sit you peruse, most of which cannot even be directly attributed to the vaccine with certainty, are well within the expected 'normal' death rates for various aliments like heart attacks etc for the appropriate age groups.

I headed that off the pass and actually covered it in my previous post - with an explanation. See notation #4

The official VERS site http://vaers.hhs.gov/ is very complicated, but has better analytical reporting features than the openvaers.com site you may be referring to that retrieves raw data from the official VAERS.

VAERS is run by HHS, who is 'boss' of both FDA and CDC, all part of the organizations you seem to distrust.

Not without a reason.

Openvaers.com takes the official VAERS data and shows it from their POV of people, or loved ones, that are perceived to have been affected by the vaccine.  I don't want to discredit Openvaers at all, just so you know where they are coming from and how they present the same data, and limitations.  I wish the official site was as easily navigated, but it is made for other purposes and not really a public facing tool.  It allows a deeper view into the data and capability to pick out events that stick out, i.e. their assessment of risk factors with the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine and TTS

I hope you find this post somewhat helpful, or at least thought-provoking.

I appreciate the effort, though my stance hasn't change.

Returning in kind, here's the last bit on my post to make sure you know it wasn't just a jibe.

http://www.politico.com/news/2021/07/12/biden-covid-vaccination-campaign-499278

Biden allied groups, including the Democratic National Committee, are also planning to engage fact-checkers more aggressively and work with SMS carriers to dispel misinformation about vaccines that is sent over social media and text messages. The goal is to ensure that people who may have difficulty getting a vaccination because of issues like transportation see those barriers lessened or removed entirely.

[BillyB]

Government can't get enough people vaccinated so they send Fauci on tv to send a 'message' to schools and businesses to mandate their students and workers to get vaccinated. People will lose jobs and kids will lose education if they don't adopt the government approved message.

http://t.me/realx22report/2910


Government does not respect your position on vaccines so they are sending people door to door to 'educate' you and record those who do not want the vaccine. Now they are asking SMS carriers to use fact checkers to monitor who is engaging in anti vaccine texts.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/07/biden-regime-monitor-private-communications-calls-sms-carriers-dispel-misinformation-vaccines-sent-social-media-text-messages/


Factcheck.org owns 2 billion dollars worth of vaccine stock.

http://twitter.com/RepThomasMassie/status/1414674836530597888?s=20


FDA warns J and J vaccine has a neurological disease risk

http://www.wsj.com/articles/fda-plans-to-warn-j-j-covid-19-vaccine-raises-risk-of-rare-neurological-condition-11626117261


Some of you may have heard a patent for the coronavirus and cure was taken out years ago. Here's a discussion on that recent news based off documents pulled from the patent office. There should be an investigation on all these new revelations and we may need Nuremburg style trials for those involved with the virus released on humanity whether by accident or on purpose.

http://dougbillings.us/video/dougs-commentary-about-the-dr-david-martin-interview/

[BC]

I appreciate the effort, though my stance hasn't change.

Wasn't expecting change, but good to exchange views as gentlemen, fellow citizens, and not as adversaries.

Returning in kind, here's the last bit on my post to make sure you know it wasn't just a jibe.

Thanks for the link.  I have no issues with health authorities at the state, or federal level doing all they can to provide folks with information to make good choices.

“We are steadfastly committed to keeping politics out of the effort to get every American vaccinated so that we can save lives and help our economy further recover,” White House spokesperson Kevin Munoz said. “When we see deliberate efforts to spread misinformation, we view that as an impediment to the country's public health and will not shy away from calling that out.”

I think this pretty much sums things up.  Those that are vaccinated will experience fewer issues, whereas the risks for the unvaccinated are rising.  I fear it will be another long, hard curveball in autumn, with some restrictions already hitting.  I was just talking to my dermatologist this morning, getting some small spots checked (all ok), reticence to get the vaccine is also present here, with a lot of the same mis- and disinformation going around from the fringes via the internet, i.e. the post directly above this one. We both agreed we'd be much better off without all the politics involved.  I believe a lot of folks still look to happenings in the US over here, digesting both the good and bad.

Here or there, looks like many will just have to learn the hard way.  It's far from over, sadly.

[GQBlues]

BC-

I Constitutionally and vehemently disagree with you that our government have the right to not only invade a person's privacy, suppress/oppress freedom of speech/choice, and implementing a police state for their own political purposes. You support the government do all these over a vaccine they could not, have not, approve?

If you would like to talk about mis / dis-information, start with that. Then continue with Democrats not only assailing last summer's nationwide riots, looting and protesting were NOT responsible for the heightened spikes of infection in the country. To deny this 'fact', and not even have it open for discussion, is more than unnerving.

I'm good with finding comfort in disagreeing with you over most of the recent political events taking place in our nation lately.

Number cruncher 101: approx. 34,000,000 was infected with COVID-19, 622,000 died. That's a survival rate of 98.17. What is it they claim the vaccine's efficacy is, 97%? Numbers never lie. We haven't even included asymptomatic cases in these numbers since we do not know how many were infected but never seen the doctor or got hospitalized. They want to exercise, and you support, a 3rd world police state based on these numbers?

[BC]

BC-

I Constitutionally and vehemently disagree with you that our government have the right to not only invade a person's privacy, suppress/oppress freedom of speech/choice, and implementing a police state for their own political purposes. You support the government do all these over a vaccine they could not, have not, approve?

Sure, there should be limits, and I'm quite confident these limits will be tested, and any Constitutional issues resolved by the courts.  That's how our system works.  IIRC having seen public service announcements on TV, but can't remember who sponsored them.  We have mandates in schools as well for vaccines.  It seems many of the COVID vaccines might well be changed from EUA to A by the end of the year, maybe sooner.

If you would like to talk about mis / dis-information, start with that. Then continue with Democrats not only assailing last summer's nationwide riots, looting and protesting were NOT responsible for the heightened spikes of infection in the country. To deny this 'fact', and not even have it open for discussion, is more than unnerving.

Yeah, but that's a whataboutism.  Not very useful for discussing this topic.

I'm good with finding comfort in disagreeing with you over most of the recent political events taking place in our nation lately.

Ditto

Number cruncher 101: approx. 34,000,000 was infected with COVID-19, 622,000 died. That's a survival rate of 98.17. What is it they claim the vaccine's efficacy is, 97%? Numbers never lie.

I believe the correct way to calculate is take 622,000 that died, and subtract the efficacy % of the vaccine.  Let's take 90% - approximately 559,800 would still be living today had we had the vaccine at the outset and folks were fully vaccinated.  I'd suggest double-checking with your sources.  Maybe post a link here, as I am curious.  Thanks for bringing this up, as it is certainly a factual issue that does have an indisputable answer.

Remember, the vaccines don't necessarily prevent infection, but do reduce hospitalizations, and deaths that result from infections, by preparing our immune system beforehand for this type of virus. The flu shot is much less effective than most COVID vaccines, yet many line up each year to get it because it does save a significant amount of lives by lessening the effects.

http://www.healthline.com/health/flu-vaccine-effectiveness

Same scenarios apply with the COVID vaccines.

Although exact statistics are not yet available as it's still early, it is reported that there are currently many more deaths among the unvaccinated than the vaccinated.

[edit] http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2021/jul/deaths-and-hospitalizations-averted-rapid-us-vaccination-rollout

[GQBlues]

Sure, there should be limits, and I'm quite confident these limits will be tested, and any Constitutional issues resolved by the courts.  That's how our system works.  IIRC having seen public service announcements on TV, but can't remember who sponsored them.  We have mandates in schools as well for vaccines.  It seems many of the COVID vaccines might well be changed from EUA to A by the end of the year, maybe sooner.

IIRC, the FISA protocol was abused for political purpose not too long ago. I'm certain you haven't forgotten that as it hasn't been that long ago. This' limit' you mentioned had been conveniently moved accordingly.

Yeah, but that's a whataboutism.  Not very useful for discussing this topic.

Exactly the point I made. You close down the country to prevent infection, but Democrats supports millions of folks to spend hours on in, every single day all summer long, shoulder to shoulder for hours on in, to advance their political purpose. BUT, let's not talk about that...right? Funny.

I believe the correct way to calculate is take 622,000 that died, and subtract the efficacy % of the vaccine.  Let's take 90% - approximately 559,800 would still be living today had we had the vaccine at the outset and folks were fully vaccinated.

 

Wrong. Why? Because now you're reducing this to hypotheticals to serve your intended narrative, which is a false premise. You can't rewrite history because that isn't what happened. We have hard numbers available. This is why I'm 'not projecting' a hypothetical number of asymptomatic cases, which would even bolster my narrative, because we don't know what the total number of asymptomatic cases either. Besides, I don't need to do this, as again, the numbers we know comfortably supports my point.

I'd suggest double-checking with your sources.  Maybe post a link here, as I am curious.  Thanks for bringing this up, as it is certainly a factual issue that does have an indisputable answer.

For the vaccine efficacy: http://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/real-world-evidence-confirms-high-effectiveness-pfizer

As for the 98.17%er I cited...world-o-meter report for the US. Death vs recovered. You can chronologically slide backwards at any calendar point you like. I chose December 21, 2020 (approx. vaccine administration) to yesterday when I made the estimate. Feel free to use the very latest if it pleases you (today).

Remember, the vaccines don't necessarily prevent infection, but do reduce hospitalizations, and deaths that result from infections, by preparing our immune system beforehand for this type of virus. The flu shot is much less effective than most COVID vaccines, yet many line up each year to get it because it does save a significant amount of lives by lessening the effects.

Not according to the prevailing health administrators that govern these vaccines. According to them, the *studies* has not yet concluded for them to approve the vaccine/s. So you either agree with their 'report', or you don't, but you can't agree to both at your convenience.

Besides, death rates hasn't really improved either since the administration, based on the reported statement I referred to above.

Although exact statistics are not yet available as it's still early, it is reported that there are currently many more deaths among the unvaccinated than the vaccinated.

Really, 

Numbers don't lie, BC. Politicians do all the time, and we just now found out, even top medical officials e.g. Fauci & co. You even said yourself upthread that VAER's reports shouldn't be taken as gospel because they don't really know if the reported deaths are in fact caused by the vaccines. LMAO. How can they make a definitive assertion one way or the other? Again, convenience?

[Trenchcoat]

Russia on Tuesday reported 24,702 new coronavirus cases and 780 deaths — a new single-day mortality record — as the country battles the surging Delta variant.

Russia's Federal Air Transport Agency has ordered that airlines test all pilots and flight attendants for coronavirus once every 72 hours, the RBC news website reported.

Russia’s Black Sea coastal resorts including Sochi will require visiting tourists to vaccinate against the coronavirus within three days of arrival starting Aug. 1, regional authorities announced Friday.

St. Petersburg authorities will ban gatherings of more than 75 people from July 13, city officials announced. Case numbers have spiked in Russia's second-largest city as it has hosted seven matches in the football tournament.

— Supplies of Russia's EpiVacCorona vaccine have run out in Moscow, city authorities said Thursday, leaving Sputnik V and Sputnik Light as the only remaining vaccine options for Muscovites after supplies of the CoviVac ran out on June 22.

— Starting July 1, the Krasnodar region — where Russia's resort city of Sochi is located — will require all hotels and guest houses to obtain a negative PCR test or vaccination certificate from guests. Starting Aug. 1, the region will ban entry to resorts for unvaccinated vacationers.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/07/13/coronavirus-in-russia-the-latest-news-july-13-a69117

That's quite shocking Grumpy, looks likely he things are getting pretty bad in Russia then with the virus. Guessing the Delta variant has made its way through being reasonably near India and having such large borders and all. Ukraine's official figures for known infections are quite low, not sure if this is due to a lengthy lockdown or bs. Vaccination wise it's going pretty slowly in Ukraine with just a couple of million or so our of a total population of 40 something million population. Anyway thanks for letting us know how things stand in Russia, handy stuff to know.

[BC]

IIRC, the FISA protocol was abused for political purpose not too long ago. I'm certain you haven't forgotten that as it hasn't been that long ago. This' limit' you mentioned had been conveniently moved accordingly.


Exactly the point I made. You close down the country to prevent infection, but Democrats supports millions of folks to spend hours on in, every single day all summer long, shoulder to shoulder for hours on in, to advance their political purpose. BUT, let's not talk about that...right? Funny.

Correct, it serves no purpose for this discourse, only distracts.
 

Wrong. Why? Because now you're reducing this to hypotheticals to serve your intended narrative, which is a false premise. You can't rewrite history because that isn't what happened. We have hard numbers available. This is why I'm 'not projecting' a hypothetical number of asymptomatic cases, which would even bolster my narrative, because we don't know what the total number of asymptomatic cases either. Besides, I don't need to do this, as again, the numbers we know comfortably supports my point.

Don't believe I wrote you were wrong.  I shared what I understand at the moment and the way I interpret how the numbers should be calculated.

For the vaccine efficacy: http://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/real-world-evidence-confirms-high-effectiveness-pfizer[/quote]

Your prior post prompted me to take a second look and indeed efficacy is determined by the trials, and efficiency determined by real world experience.

The link I provided in the edit are estimates, and real world efficiency looks good so far, but no definitive numbers I can find.  As mentioned, still early.

As for the 98.17%er I cited...world-o-meter report for the US. Death vs recovered. You can chronologically slide backwards at any calendar point you like. I chose December 21, 2020 (approx. vaccine administration) to yesterday when I made the estimate. Feel free to use the very latest if it pleases you (today).

See my remark above regarding efficacy vs efficiency.

Not according to the prevailing health administrators that govern these vaccines. According to them, the *studies* has not yet concluded for them to approve the vaccine/s. So you either agree with their 'report', or you don't, but you can't agree to both at your convenience.

My belief is there is a high level of confidence that the vaccines are working as expected, and are reducing deaths and hospitalizations among the vaccinated.  Of course, I could be wrong, and so can you.  We'll have to see real world results, in numbers.  As for approvals, I expressed my opinion that it is likely this year from tidbits here and there.

Besides, death rates hasn't really improved either since the administration, based on the reported statement I referred to above.

Hard to prove either way at this point or?  Estimates as per the last link look encouraging.

Really, 

Know anyone at a hospital nearby?

Numbers don't lie, BC. Politicians do all the time, and we just now found out, even top medical officials e.g. Fauci & co.

Our opinions may differ, but that's quite ok.  Indeed, the numbers don't lie, but interpretation of the numbers can be faulty.  I'll rely on the science, and my confidence level is high as 'on the ground' reports from the US are practically mirrored with those over here.

[GQBlues]

Correct, it serves no purpose for this discourse, only distracts.

Disagree. Certainly not distracting anything since you stated support to implement policing the public and violating our civil rights under the erroneous premise that 'conservatives' are dis/misinforming anything surrounding the vaccine, creating apprehension. The only dis/misinformation, based on my supporting posts I've relayed here, is coming from this current administration and that of its political party.
 

Don't believe I wrote you were wrong.  I shared what I understand at the moment and the way I interpret how the numbers should be calculated.

Okay, My rebuttal on the subject stands firmly as stated.

Your prior post prompted me to take a second look and indeed efficacy is determined by the trials, and efficiency determined by real world experience.

The link I provided in the edit are estimates, and real world efficiency looks good so far, but no definitive numbers I can find.  As mentioned, still early.

See my remark above regarding efficacy vs efficiency.

My belief is there is a high level of confidence that the vaccines are working as expected, and are reducing deaths and hospitalizations among the vaccinated.  Of course, I could be wrong, and so can you.  We'll have to see real world results, in numbers.  As for approvals, I expressed my opinion that it is likely this year from tidbits here and there.

Hard to prove either way at this point or?  Estimates as per the last link look encouraging.

Again, disagree. It matters little at this point what or how you classify/differentiate efficacy / efficiency. Feel free to apply logical reasoning or logarithmic math to compare what the world was without the vaccines, to what it had become since patient 1.

Know anyone at a hospital nearby?

Not sure what this means. Is VAERs's total content report invalid?

Our opinions may differ, but that's quite ok.  Indeed, the numbers don't lie, but interpretation of the numbers can be faulty.  I'll rely on the science, and my confidence level is high as 'on the ground' reports from the US are practically mirrored with those over here.

I made no *interpretation* of the published numbers beyond its purpose and intent. You may choose to deny what it represent because it may counter your chosen narrative, that's fine. Certainly that's your right. But let's not confuse the facts to anything other than what it intended and represent.

[BillyB]

Fun Fact: President of Haiti who was assassinated didn't import vaccines for his people. Less than 48 hrs after assassination, White House announces Haiti will be getting vaccines. Did the Biden administration negotiate or forced the government of Haiti to accept vaccine exploiting the death of an anti vax world leader?

Press Briefing by Press Secretary Jen Psaki, July 9, 2021 | The White House


Nobel Peace Prize winner and expert in virology says his vaccinated patients are shown to create variants that are vaccine resistant. He said people will die because of this. He also said it's unthinkable why we're vaccinating during a pandemic. This strategy is wrong.

Luc Montagnier: "We must be ready to incinerate the bodies" - Seemorerocks


Two whistleblowers in the CDC say we have 50,000 deaths from vaccines which is much more than online reports.

http://www.algora.com/Algora_blog/2021/06/27/dr-peter-mccullough-whistleblowers-inside-cdc-claim-injections-have-already-killed-50000-americans


French President tells people they'll lose freedoms and rights to worship if they aren't vaccinated. Currently there are mass protests in France.

Pay Attention - French President Emmanuel Macron Announces All Citizens Who Wish to Shop, Drink, Eat At Restaurants, Travel or Worship Must Be Vaccinated - The Last Refuge (theconservativetreehouse.com)

[Admin]

Fun Fact: President of Haiti who was assassinated didn't import vaccines for his people. Less than 48 hrs after assassination, White House announces Haiti will be getting vaccines. Did the Biden administration negotiate or forced the government of Haiti to accept vaccine exploiting the death of an anti vax world leader?

Billy, rhetorical questions pertaining to unfounded conspiracy theories are the very definition of PROVOCATIVE AND MISLEADING posts.

The only FACT is you are ignoring repeated admonitions to return to on-topic posts.

My patience has grown thin. The next one earns you an extended 'time-out.'

[BillyB]

Dan, I didn't make a claim about the Biden administration. I asked a question. The most important person in Haiti was just assassinated and we're pushing products on them that were previously outlawed. People on the forum have always questioned government actions being highly suspicious of government. The American government routinely accuses Russia of killing journalists and poisoning people in the UK.


People all over the world protest and riot against bad government accusing them of many bad things. They have a good feeling on why their lives and their country is going downhill. They don't offer evidence but they appeal to other citizens of the world to support their cause and we don't call them conspiracy theorists.


No conspiracy theories. I can link evidence that came from American government sources that shows the crimes our government committed on the American people. These crimes will send people to prison. The people in my signature line are smart folks and understand what is going on. Once you understand what our government is capable of doing to the American people, you won't have faith they care about the Haitian people either. I personally think everybody has the right to see the evidence of the crimes committed against them but it's your forum and I won't post the links if you don't want.

[Admin]

Dan, I didn't make a claim about the Biden administration. I asked a question. The most important person in Haiti was just assassinated and we're pushing products on them that were previously outlawed. People on the forum have always questioned government actions being highly suspicious of government.The American government routinely accuses Russia of killing journalists and poisoning people in the UK.


People all over the world protest and riot against bad government accusing them of many bad things. They have a good feeling on why their lives and their country is going downhill. They don't offer evidence but they appeal to other citizens of the world to support their cause and we don't call them conspiracy theorists.


No conspiracy theories. I can link evidence that came from American government sources that shows the crimes our government committed on the American people. These crimes will send people to prison. The people in my signature line are smart folks and understand what is going on. Once you understand what our government is capable of doing to the American people, you won't have faith they care about the Haitian people either. I personally think everybody has the right to see the evidence of the crimes committed against them but it's your forum and I won't post the links if you don't want.

It is abundantly clear to the entire membership of RWD that you are able to share a copious number of links. Whether they constitute believable "evidence" or not is a separate topic - AND - it is a topic which strays far afield of RWD's purpose.

You are a smart guy Billy. You know what is being requested (ne demanded) of you. I will no longer leave it to you to exercise good judgment.

[BillyB]

Out of all the off themed topics the forum had to endure, none is more important than what is going on in our country. I'd trade every off themed topic for this one. If our government has taken away our rights, our children's rights, and future generations rights to choose our leaders and destiny and a small corrupt group of people are in control of who gets to be President and other positions of power, wouldn't you want to know the truth and have the people around you to have this knowledge so we can take corrective actions? If America has taken the same path as Venezuela, wouldn't you want to stop it?

We can't depend on our government to fix themselves or expect the media to educate us since they're covering up crimes. Stuff like this happens all the time to nations around the world and throughout history. Government grows corrupt, propaganda media keeps people ignorant and gets them to think everything is fine, next thing you know, nations are taken over by corrupt people who changes laws to cement their power and the citizens can't recover their losses. I would hope Americans can look at history, learn from it, and not let this happen to us. Most of us didn't expect this to happen in our lifetime but it was bound to happen and it's happening now.

The evidence I can link people to is now public records and can be obtained for $240 but I can post a link from a left leaning newspaper that has given it to people for free. Audits starting around the country are going to eventually obtain this evidence but fortunately for us, this was release early and people can begin to understand what our government has become and what they are doing to us. Knowledge is power.

[BC]

Disagree. Certainly not distracting anything since you stated support to implement policing the public and violating our civil rights under the erroneous premise that 'conservatives' are dis/misinforming anything surrounding the vaccine, creating apprehension. The only dis/misinformation, based on my supporting posts I've relayed here, is coming from this current administration and that of its political party.

As this is a subjective sub topic, I think we can simply agree to disagree.
 

Okay, My rebuttal on the subject stands firmly as stated.

Your POV is noted. Of course, real world data and comparisons when available might influence my position.  See more details surrounding my position below.

Again, disagree. It matters little at this point what or how you classify/differentiate efficacy / efficiency. Feel free to apply logical reasoning or logarithmic math to compare what the world was without the vaccines, to what it had become since patient 1.

My point was not to invent terminology, but insert terms defined and in common use (thanks again to pointing me in this direction.  I learned something and always enjoy that).  See the following article written long before, in 1998, thus without influences of the current crisis.  I think it goes to the heart of our discussion here.  I hope you'll agree with using these terms in further discussions.

http://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9855432/

In the clinical development of a vaccine, an efficacy study asks the question, "Does the vaccine work?" In contrast, an effectiveness study asks the question "Does vaccination help people?"

Not sure what this means. Is VAERs's total content report invalid?

Obviously the data is not invalid, for the purposes of what the database was constructed for, namely as an ear for a variety of data, from different sources reporting negative events that may, or may not be associated with the vaccines. 

My remark concerned the possibility of gathering anecdotal information from those near you that are working with hospitalized COVID patients, whether they note a trend of more being severely ill and dying being among the vaccinated or unvaccinated population.

I made no *interpretation* of the published numbers beyond its purpose and intent. You may choose to deny what it represent because it may counter your chosen narrative, that's fine. Certainly that's your right. But let's not confuse the facts to anything other than what it intended and represent.

Oh, I certainly don't want to confuse facts, in fact, clarification is my only intent - and yes, primarily for myself by comparison with another POV (yours) I have not discounted.  If we stick to the facts, we cannot err much, and maybe learn.

To recapitulate, I believe we are in a discourse regarding efficacy of the vaccine vs effectivity.

As for efficacy, the trials have been performed showing the vaccines do work, preventing symptomatic disease to a high level, generally above 90% with a few exceptions.  As for efficiency, which I believe is your point here (do correct me if I'm wrong), you seem to be using two data sources, an adaptation of the VAERS database (openvaers.com), and worldometers.info

Neither of these databases properly assess effectivity.  VAERS is as described above, used for other purposes and includes only persons that have been vaccinated.  Worldometers.info OTOH, considers a number of facts such as country, number of infections, deaths, hospitalization and testing.  It does not, however, include information regarding vaccination status, i.e. number of deaths, or serious/critical hospitalizations by this status.  As you indicated, it does provide timeline data by date which is great.

As far as efficiency studies is concerned (if we can agree on using this term and definition above), they are being done, but I have not seen any concrete, full scale national data yet other than statistical estimates and one study I mention below.  I'm confident more will be forthcoming, though, hopefully in the short-term. The best I could find is:  http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7018e1.htm published in May 2021 with the following results:

In a multistate network of U.S. hospitals during January–March 2021, receipt of Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna COVID-19 vaccines was 94% effective against COVID-19 hospitalization among fully vaccinated adults and 64% effective among partially vaccinated adults aged ≥65 years.

Do note that the full article follows usage of efficacy and effectivity as I defined above, so can be considered on-point in contextual terms.

Maybe it would help me better understand if you lead me through your numbers and logic.  I reviewed your posts but, honestly, had difficulty understanding your correlations (maybe age related, although somewhat more forgetful, I don't believe I'm that awful feeble-minded just yet

As for estimates of how effective the vaccines are, I can point you to the link I provided previously, but out of curiosity compared charts from both the estimated effectivity and worldometers, somewhat to scale and timeline for your consideration.  Again, this is just a 'guesstimate', but do consider that effectiveness in the small study above replicates efficacy from trials, there may be more truth than untruth with the estimate.  I do find the estimate somewhat optimistic, but am neither a statistician nor fully knowledgeable and qualified to get down to the nitty-gritty with such. It does give me a comfortable level of confidence, that given a bit of time, my supposition, in general, will be supported by the facts.

[Trenchcoat]

I think at the moment people looking to date in the FSU or carry on any sort of activity or relationship out there are interested in whether we are going to be now over the worst of this virus or whether it's going to be an ongoing problem that keeps posing an obstacle to getting anything real and meaningful going with a FSW out there.

Ukraine I will soon be able to fly to after the 19th July, soon Russia though looks like it will be off limits for some time partly due to the virus and partly due to access to getting visas if I understand this correctly. Last I heard it sounds like they pretty much banned most travel into their country for the time being.

I haven't heard of any new variants of late and I'm guessing the original virus may have pretty much gone with the variants taking over now. What I have read is that these variants can have sub-variants and a few of them are knocking around such as for the lamda variant. Whether this will amount to much is yet unclear and whether the sub-variants will be any more infectious and/or virulent. The hope of course is that they are not and won't amount to anything substantial, if they were to however that to my mind  would be a big problem in terms of being able to carry on dating, relationships & activities in the FSU.

[GQBlues]

Sheesh...you have too much time on your hands -    But, OK...

As this is a subjective sub topic, I think we can simply agree to disagree.

But it wasn’t a ‘sub-topic’. It was a part of the double-pronged subject being discussed. I shall leave no doubt you’d pounce on the subject had the political affiliation is opposite that of yours.

This sheds a sad reminder of the current state of political affairs today, and additional past biased acknowledgment of the following events in time: Iraq / Libya / Vietnam / the Balkans destructions; project MKUltra; the suspension / abolition of the writ of habeas corpus, support and promotion of violent protests, etc.

It’s only criminal if one political party is behind it. Now, you can begin adding more to those.

Your POV is noted. Of course, real world data and comparisons when available might influence my position.

Real world data? Funny. Real world data had been established since this pandemic went global, in which you yourself had used countless times and had always been reliant of its information - even today counting your latest post. It’s just that the information from this *real world data* apparently is nullifying your narrative.

See more details surrounding my position below.

My point was not to invent terminology, but insert terms defined and in common use (thanks again to pointing me in this direction.  I learned something and always enjoy that).  See the following article written long before, in 1998, thus without influences of the current crisis.  I think it goes to the heart of our discussion here.  I hope you'll agree with using these terms in further discussions.

http://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9855432/

Well BC. I’d at least give you a ‘B’* for effort. You really dug deep in Goggle’s algorithm to come up with Fedson’s ‘abstract’. Unfortunately, the very definition of it should’ve alerted you to carefully consider its content beforehand. Obviously, you didn’t. Within its ‘abstract’ own verbiage, it was clearly telling you that your search for a definitive value of a vaccine *efficiency* is akin to chasing a ghost, for lack of a better term.
There are a multitude of reasons why you will just dive deeper in hypothesis trying to chase this when dealing with viruses. For starters, there will always be a perpetual viral mutation creating variants, so any ‘efficiency’ value of a vaccine becomes useless. The annual influenza proves this point well enough. People still die every year.

To further prove this point (yesterday), the UK just released a report that from Feb 1 – June 21st, over 63% of folks who died of the delta variant had received at least one dose. BUT, while it still maintained there’s benefit of getting (fully) vaccinated, it admits that fully vaccinated people are still dying because of the virus. In their study, it’s largely age-related.

http://theconversation.com/most-covid-deaths-in-england-now-are-in-the-vaccinated-heres-why-that-shouldnt-alarm-you-163671

In short order, you can wait till the cows come home waiting for an efficiency value in this current strain. Fine by me. In the end, this again just reinforced my point in both accounts. The mis / disinformation is not coming from ‘conservatives’ but the from these liberals.

1. The current US administration, and the Democratic party, are very clearly violating US citizens’ civil rights. This needs to stop. To this point, you disagree with me as you’d rather see the country turn to a policed state to ensure we do what you’ve decided to do for yourself, right (?).
2. If this vaccine is as effective as they say it is, approve the darn thing. They cannot.
3. The vaccine’s efficacy rate is not any *better* than the survival rate illustrated prior to its administration.

(* As a side note – this happens more times than not when people heavily rely on Google.)

Obviously the data is not invalid, for the purposes of what the database was constructed for, namely as an ear for a variety of data, from different sources reporting negative events that may, or may not be associated with the vaccines. 

My remark concerned the possibility of gathering anecdotal information from those near you that are working with hospitalized COVID patients, whether they note a trend of more being severely ill and dying being among the vaccinated or unvaccinated population.

Oh, I certainly don't want to confuse facts, in fact, clarification is my only intent - and yes, primarily for myself by comparison with another POV (yours) I have not discounted.  If we stick to the facts, we cannot err much, and maybe learn.

<snip>

As for estimates of how effective the vaccines are, I can point you to the link I provided previously, but out of curiosity compared charts from both the estimated effectivity and worldometers, somewhat to scale and timeline for your consideration.  Again, this is just a 'guesstimate', but do consider that effectiveness in the small study above replicates efficacy from trials, there may be more truth than untruth with the estimate.  I do find the estimate somewhat optimistic, but am neither a statistician nor fully knowledgeable and qualified to get down to the nitty-gritty with such. It does give me a comfortable level of confidence, that given a bit of time, my supposition, in general, will be supported by the facts.

Actually, no. You may think that, doesn't make it so. This, again, proves what I've been saying all these time. People Google things and all cognitive diligence grinds to a halt.

How about I do this, let us extract information from a source we can agree is ‘good enough’ to use for now instead of having you Google all sorts of sites for this exercise?

Let us use world-o-meter’s since that's the one we can agree is good enough for now.

What the death rate in the US before patient ‘1’ (New York’s Sarah Lindsey), logarithmically, and what it became after the 2 -week period after December 14^th of (Dec. 28^th) its administration. Fair enough?

We can splice these in any chronological measure: daily, weekly, bi-monthly, monthly (I know you’re very fond of using ‘graphs’, maybe because it’s pretty to look at. I’d rather see *numbers* and I'll show you why).

Impact of the Virus in the US:
~ February 29, 2020 (John Doe 1^st casualty) to Present time (a/o this post): Total Cases = 34,849,155. Total Death = 623,870; Recovered: 29,324,356; Survival Rate: 98.18%

Period before vaccine:
~ February 29,2020 to December 28, 2020 (10 months without vaccine): Total cases: 19,963,379
Total Death = 353,705; Recovered: 7,310, 591; Survival Rate: 98.23%

Period after Vaccine:
~ December 28, 2020 to Present Time (A-B): Total Cases = 14,225,776; Total Death =  270,165; Survival Rate = 98.1%

Extraction – death rate w/out vaccine: Monthly average = 35,371; Death rate with the vaccine; 38,595 You can extract your bi-monthly, weekly, bi-weekly, daily, per hour/per minute, etc. accordingly. STRICTLY based on these resulting numbers, tell me what/where the *efficiency* value of the vaccine you claim? Clearly, any positive impact, chronologically, should mark an improvement at any degree or level, wouldn't you think?

Digest this a little; and let me know where you believe it’s wrong.

[GQBlues]

Extraction – death rate w/out vaccine: Monthly average = 35,371; Death rate with the vaccine; 38,595 You can extract your bi-monthly, weekly, bi-weekly, daily, per hour/per minute, etc. accordingly. STRICTLY based on these resulting numbers, tell me what/where the *efficiency* value of the vaccine you claim? Clearly, any positive impact, chronologically, should mark an improvement at any degree or level, wouldn't you think?

Italics above should say:
Average (monthly) death rate prior to administration of the vaccine/s (10 months) = 35,371
Average (monthly) death rate after administration of the vaccine/s, (7 months inc. the 2-week period required) = 38,595.

[GQBlues]

Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials.

BillyB-

I hope you take this as intended.

Do some deeper diligence and find out exactly where these *funds* are really headed to. Just be careful. No need to answer this post. It's a just thought I'm sharing.

[BC]

Sheesh...you have too much time on your hands -    But, OK...But it wasn’t a ‘sub-topic’. It was a part of the double-pronged subject being discussed. I shall leave no doubt you’d pounce on the subject had the political affiliation is opposite that of yours.

What I am sure of GQ, is that any government efforts to encourage folks to get vaccinated will have to be within the bounds of our Constitution.  I stated that clearly in my previous post.  Anything beyond that is purely subjective and speculative.  Easy.

This sheds a sad reminder of the current state of political affairs today, and additional past biased acknowledgment of the following events in time: Iraq / Libya / Vietnam / the Balkans destructions; project MKUltra; the suspension / abolition of the writ of habeas corpus, support and promotion of violent protests, etc.

It’s only criminal if one political party is behind it. Now, you can begin adding more to those.

I'll share my opinion, and read yours.  As in a previous discourse with BillyB, I'd like to drill down to a layer of substance and not dwell on subjective opinions and distractions, aka Deny, Divert, Discredit - that end up as argument rather than discourse.

Real world data? Funny. Real world data had been established since this pandemic went global, in which you yourself had used countless times and had always been reliant of its information - even today counting your latest post. It’s just that the information from this *real world data* apparently is nullifying your narrative.

Well BC. I’d at least give you a ‘B’* for effort. You really dug deep in Goggle’s algorithm to come up with Fedson’s ‘abstract’. Unfortunately, the very definition of it should’ve alerted you to carefully consider its content beforehand. Obviously, you didn’t. Within its ‘abstract’ own verbiage, it was clearly telling you that your search for a definitive value of a vaccine *efficiency* is akin to chasing a ghost, for lack of a better term.
There are a multitude of reasons why you will just dive deeper in hypothesis trying to chase this when dealing with viruses. For starters, there will always be a perpetual viral mutation creating variants, so any ‘efficiency’ value of a vaccine becomes useless. The annual influenza proves this point well enough. People still die every year.

An abstract is simply a summary.  This abstract highlighted the difference between efficacy determined in vaccine trials vs how effective a vaccine is in the 'real world'.

To further prove this point (yesterday), the UK just released a report that from Feb 1 – June 21st, over 63% of folks who died of the delta variant had received at least one dose. BUT, while it still maintained there’s benefit of getting (fully) vaccinated, it admits that fully vaccinated people are still dying because of the virus. In their study, it’s largely age-related.

http://theconversation.com/most-covid-deaths-in-england-now-are-in-the-vaccinated-heres-why-that-shouldnt-alarm-you-163671

Of course, fully vaccinated folks still die, but less than in the unvaccinated population.  If a country reaches 100% vaccination rate, all the people that die will have been vaccinated. I discussed and posted the same article a while back in this thread.  UK shows almost 90% have had at least one dose.  http://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations

In short order, you can wait till the cows come home waiting for an efficiency value in this current strain. Fine by me. In the end, this again just reinforced my point in both accounts. The mis / disinformation is not coming from ‘conservatives’ but the from these liberals.

1. The current US administration, and the Democratic party, are very clearly violating US citizens’ civil rights. This needs to stop. To this point, you disagree with me as you’d rather see the country turn to a policed state to ensure we do what you’ve decided to do for yourself, right (?).

Thanks for your opinions, GQ.  As stated above, any actions on the part of the government is subject to our Constitution and law.

2. If this vaccine is as effective as they say it is, approve the darn thing. They cannot.
3. The vaccine’s efficacy rate is not any *better* than the survival rate illustrated prior to its administration.

A bit of patience is needed for the bureaucrats to cross the t's and dot the i's.  Let it play out.  I'm very confident it will be approved fairly soon, but that is my opinion.

(* As a side note – this happens more times than not when people heavily rely on Google.)

Actually, no. You may think that, doesn't make it so. This, again, proves what I've been saying all these time. People Google things and all cognitive diligence grinds to a halt.

Sure, the internet is a mixed bag, one has to research to separate the wheat from the chaff.

How about I do this, let us extract information from a source we can agree is ‘good enough’ to use for now instead of having you Google all sorts of sites for this exercise?

Let us use world-o-meter’s since that's the one we can agree is good enough for now.

What the death rate in the US before patient ‘1’ (New York’s Sarah Lindsey), logarithmically, and what it became after the 2 -week period after December 14^th of (Dec. 28^th) its administration. Fair enough?

We can splice these in any chronological measure: daily, weekly, bi-monthly, monthly (I know you’re very fond of using ‘graphs’, maybe because it’s pretty to look at. I’d rather see *numbers* and I'll show you why).

Impact of the Virus in the US:
~ February 29, 2020 (John Doe 1^st casualty) to Present time (a/o this post): Total Cases = 34,849,155. Total Death = 623,870; Recovered: 29,324,356; Survival Rate: 98.18%

Period before vaccine:
~ February 29,2020 to December 28, 2020 (10 months without vaccine): Total cases: 19,963,379
Total Death = 353,705; Recovered: 7,310, 591; Survival Rate: 98.23%

Period after Vaccine:
~ December 28, 2020 to Present Time (A-B): Total Cases = 14,225,776; Total Death =  270,165; Survival Rate = 98.1%

Extraction – death rate w/out vaccine: Monthly average = 35,371; Death rate with the vaccine; 38,595 You can extract your bi-monthly, weekly, bi-weekly, daily, per hour/per minute, etc. accordingly. STRICTLY based on these resulting numbers, tell me what/where the *efficiency* value of the vaccine you claim? Clearly, any positive impact, chronologically, should mark an improvement at any degree or level, wouldn't you think?

Digest this a little; and let me know where you believe it’s wrong.

As stated in my prior post, worldometers would be great if it broke down deaths with vaccinated and unvaccinated.  It doesn't.

What we do have so far in terms of assessments of vaccine effectiveness is summarized well in the article below.  You'll just have to learn to be patient for more.  I understand you have trust issues, but do note that the article covers a number of countries and studies, some peer reviewed.

http://www.mja.com.au/journal/2021/effectiveness-covid-19-vaccines-findings-real-world-studies

Real world studies

In five countries (Israel, England, Scotland, the United Kingdom, Sweden and the United States of America) researchers have analysed routinely collected data to report the early outcomes of community-wide vaccination programs with three of the first vaccines to reach market – the BNT162b2 mRNA (Pfizer/BioNTech) mRNA-1273 (Moderna) and ChAdOx1 adenoviral vector (Oxford/AstraZeneca) vaccines.5,6,7,8,9

At this time only two of the papers (from Israel and Scotland) have been peer reviewed5,6, so details reported here may change after revisions to the other reports.7,8,9 There is a rapidly growing literature on community impact of COVID-19 vaccines that have provided very consistent evidence of substantial vaccine effectiveness. We think it is unlikely that these findings will be change significantly with future research.

Conclusions

We can draw important conclusions from these non-randomised studies of vaccine effectiveness. Most importantly the currently available COVID-19 vaccines appear to be effective in preventing severe complications and deaths from COVID-19 in adults of all ages.

To try and determine anything more at this early stage would only be speculative.