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Author Topic: Ukraine-The Future  (Read 208819 times)

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Online krimster2

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #200 on: November 25, 2014, 11:31:05 AM »
Gator,
   Your analogy of  comparing the “Anglo” colonization of Texas, is not quite “correct’ in my view.  Initially, the Anglo colonists and even the local Mexicans who joined them, were not being directed by an outside source (the USA), they simply wanted to be independent from a Mexican government that was moving away from a decentalized “federalist” model into a more centralized, dictatorial model (which included revoking the Mexican Constitution a few years earlier). Hey, I’m in Texas what can I say!   What I see in Eastern Ukraine is nothing more than Russia repeating what it did in Georgia and Crimea and making territorial gains at Ukraine’s expense, Russia’s “fingerprints” are all over the Eastern Ukraine conflict, it would not be happening without Russia’s direct involvement.  I suppose by the time you get to the Mexican American War, things are a bit different, in terms of the USA’s direct involvement to expand its territory.

Would Russia ever buy territory?  NO, IT HAS TO BE CONQUERED BY FORCE OF ARMS!
Russia has NEVER bought territory, it has always seized it, Putin would be looked upon as being weak by the Russian people if he paid for Ukrainian territory, buying territory is very “American”, the idea would be alien to a Russian leader.

AC, what did “Ukraine” do to the Nazis in “The Great Patriotic War, I’ll tell you what, a lot of them joined up!  Did you know that about 20% of the soldiers the Allies faced on D-Day were “Ost”(East) troops, primarily Ukrainian, did you know that by the end of 1942, over a million Ukrainians were working for the Germans, google the term “Hiwi” and while you’re at it google “Osttruppen” and 14th SS Grenadier Division (Galician No.1).  Today, the volunteer Ukrainian fighters in Eastern Ukraine are primarily from Western Ukraine, take them away and the war would be over with in 10 minutes, when Ukraine fragments, these volunteers might be a bit more interested in protecting their own homes then in fighting against The Odessa People’s Republic.

The Soviet Union (and not Ukraine) gave a major “ass-whooping” to the Nazis after a disastrous 1st year.  Kiev was conquered just 3 months after the start of the war (with a loss of over 800,000 Soviet troops), and the rest of Ukraine shortly after, between then and 1944 Ukraine was administered by the Nazis and assisted the Nazi war effort not the Soviet Union’s

I hate to disagree with you AC, I think it will be over next year, with Russia lengthening its borders yet again, if the West wants to show some resolve, stop buying Russian oil and gas, I don’t see that happening, do you?
   

Offline AkMike

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #201 on: November 25, 2014, 11:54:17 AM »
Sorry Krimster I can't believe the first 4 links strictly because they are Russian sites and I've yet to see anything remotely fair and balanced yet alone truthful come from there yet alone regarding Ukraine. (With the exception of the Moscow Time and the St Pete paper.)

 I'll stick with the numbers that I came up with from non Russian sources. With due respect,I don't think it's quite as bad as you make it sound.

Offline Boethius

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #202 on: November 25, 2014, 11:59:52 AM »
krimster, your allegation of Western Ukrainians being Nazis is inaccurate.  The history is far more complex.  Western Ukrainians did not support the Germans, and there were also millions of Ukrainians in the Red Army.  I know, because I met many of them, my sister is married to the son of a Red Army officer taken as a POW.


I don't have time right now to point to all the facts, I'll try to get to it, perhaps next week.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Online krimster2

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #203 on: November 25, 2014, 12:27:45 PM »
Boethius,
   "krimster, your allegation of Western Ukrainians being Nazis is inaccurate."
I don't believe that it is, the number of Ukrainians who worked as Kiwis was pretty well documented by the Germans, if I was Ukrainian in German occupied Ukraine and had to feed my family I might be inclined to do the same.  The existence of the 14th SS Grenadier Division (Galician No.1), is also a matter of historical record.  It doesn't mean that EVERYONE welcomed the Nazis, but it does mean that NOT EVERYONE was a partisan either.  In my own case, part of my family was exterminted at Nezhin near Chernigov, my wife's grandfather was taken from Cimea as a "gaterbeiter" to Deutchland and lived to tell the tale and even escaped being imprisoned for the crime that he survived when he was returned to Crimea!

If Putin sticks to Southern Ukraine and stays out of Western Ukraine, I don't think there will be much in the way of "resistance".  I can't remember the name of the old Russian movie that was about the Bolshevick revolution, there was a scene in a small town that had the White Army passing through and the people cheering, then a little later the Red Army was passing through and the same people were cheering them, this is 90% of the people in Ukraine today, doesn't matter to them whether it's a Russian or Ukrainian oligarch that's stealing, just give us food, warmth and a little money.  Youtube is full of videos of the conflict showing this behavior.  Not everyone is willing to sacrifice themselves for this notion of Ukraine, in fact the majority are not...

Offline Boethius

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #204 on: November 25, 2014, 01:22:19 PM »
The population in Mariupol has dug trenches, and is largely not pro Russian.  Keep in mind, although those populations speak more Russian than Ukrainian, ethnically,  they are predominantly Ukrainian.


As for WWII, your view is very black and white.  Most Ukrainians in that region were hostile to the Jewish population, because they equated "Bolshevik" with "Jewish".  Furthermore, the local Jewish populations in cities tended to work with the (hated) Poles.  I am not denying anti Semitism was strong in Western Ukraine, just explaining its genesis.  That goes all the way back to Khmelnytsky. 


Now, where you are mistaken is in assuming that Ukrainians supported the Nazis.  They did not.  It was a matter of my enemy's enemy is my friend.  Other than auxiliary police, most of the Ukrainian nationalists who cooperated with the Germans did so because they viewed it as a means of achieving their ultimate goal, an independent Ukraine.  Even most of the boys (for they were largely boys) in the Galician SS Division volunteered not because they believed in Germany, or German ideology, but because they wanted to fight the Red Army. 


Almost all the Western Ukrainians who ended up in Germany were not there because they wanted to be.  They were ostarbeiter. 


Were there collaborators?  Of course.  But to paint Western Ukrainians as Nazis is inaccurate.  Most of the leaders of Svoboda, for example, were card carrying commies/Komsomol leaders.  Their leader was a Komsomol leader, on his way to the top echelons of the communist party on the collapse.  He wrote his PhD on nationalism, and its destructive effects.  Is it any surprise he would use nationalism, albeit in a negative manner, in order to gain ower?


You also have to understand what life was like in Western Ukraine.  Unlike all other regions of Ukraine, it was ruled not by Kyiv, but by Moscow.  There was a level of control/oppression that did not exist, already, in Central/Eastern Ukraine.  So of course the reaction to the collapse was different. 


Here is a paper, the beginning pages of which have a good summation.  The paper is about the Ukrainian diaspora, but it gives a good, and balanced, view of the history.


[size=78%]http://www.timeandspace.lviv.ua/files/session/Himka_Central_European_Diaspora_65.pdf[/size]
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Muzh

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #205 on: November 25, 2014, 02:21:07 PM »
Very interesting paper.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Online krimster2

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #206 on: November 25, 2014, 02:25:57 PM »
Boethius,
   I don’t believe we disagree all that much, you say the glass is half full, I say it’s half empty, but either statement reflects how much liquid is present.

I am well acquainted with the reality in Ukraine both past and present, I am alive today, only because of the fact that two generations ago my ancestors left Ukraine and came to the USA.
I lived in Ukraine three years and traveled throughout Ukraine as much as I could, besides my home in “Krim” I visited Kiev quite a bit and have been to Lvov, Odessa, Ternopil, Chernigov and more.

Currently, the situation in Eastern Ukraine is rapidly turning desperate for those unfortunate enough to not be able to leave the conflict zone.  In addition to the constant destruction, pensions haven’t been paid in many months, banks and industry closed, the availability of food and other goods has been greatly reduced, gas and coal for heating reduced or eliminated, and critical infrastructure destroyed.  If the central bank of Ukraine collapses, and it is very near that already, then some of the conditions in Eastern Ukraine will be the “new normal” for the rest of Ukraine as well.  Who will the people then support, a government that is powerless to control its own economic destiny and presided over its own economic collapse, or one that is selling 200 billion USD/year in oil and gas?   Even the USA and Europe are being very “measured” in using sanctions against Russia and are very carefully choosing their language, using words like  “incursion” and not “invasion”.  When you see how much the West is exposed to Russian oil and gas, banking, etc, etc., they are stepping very lightly, they don’t want to disturb the “Bear”.

I am indeed impressed by the volunteers who are not only risking their lives fighting in Donbas but are doing so at their own expense, a necessity because Ukrainian state officials looted not only bank accounts but armory’s as well.  However the volunteers numbers are relatively small, less than 1/10 of 1% of the population of Ukraine.  Where are the rest of the people?  With the thousands of Ukrainian military personnel stationed in Crimea, why didn’t at least one of them lift a gun and fight the Russian “incursion”?

AkMike, if you don’t like the sources I used, here’s a different one, it’s the Prime Minister of Ukraine, as quoted by “The Guardian” a British publication that won a Pulitzer prize:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/27/ukraine-search-missing-billions-yanukovych-russia

“Yatsenyuk said that the former government had left the country with $75bn of debts. "Over $20bn of gold reserve were embezzled. They took $37bn of loans that disappeared," Yatsenyuk said. "Around $70bn was moved to offshore accounts from Ukraine's financial system in the last three years," he claimed.”

And the above information is 9 months old, do you have a clearer picture of Ukraine’s economic future now?  There isn’t one!
 


 

Offline AkMike

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #207 on: November 25, 2014, 02:59:07 PM »
The figures I showed in that article were current ones. It's very bad but not the total bust situation that you showed.

 1.4 billion or so in gold reserves and the foreign-currency reserves are $12.6 billion

 It'll be tight but with the way that Petro is working it (hopefully) will work. If they manage tor cover some of the impounded cash from the prior batch of thieves took it'll help also.

Offline JayH

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #208 on: November 25, 2014, 03:17:41 PM »
Boethius,
   I don’t believe we disagree all that much, you say the glass is half full, I say it’s half empty, but either statement reflects how much liquid is present.

I am well acquainted with the reality in Ukraine both past and present, I am alive today, only because of the fact that two generations ago my ancestors left Ukraine and came to the USA.
I lived in Ukraine three years and traveled throughout Ukraine as much as I could, besides my home in “Krim” I visited Kiev quite a bit and have been to Lvov, Odessa, Ternopil, Chernigov and more.
 

Krimster--you have opened the door about a couple of points I would make about your "observations".
Over a period of time I have been very critical of those whose Ukrainian ( & other fsu)exposure comes from the past-- more specifically not over the last few years.
Even in this last year the events moved and changed almost daily in the first half of this year-- and by and large what we have seen was a merging of different views( this is even reflected in the forums and contributors to this thread) on Ukraine.I am sure when Ukraine stabilises and the luxury of the democratic process is in place we will see a divergence of opinions again-but for now and in the crisis being faced it is probably the most united Ukrainians have ever been.
I raise this now in relation to your expressed views--because I think your views are coloured by your own unsatisfactory experiences-- some 5 years ago or more> Correct?  How much time and when & where were you in Ukraine in the last 5 years?
I have read many of your posts over a period of time-- and I do not doubt the honesty of your posts--but you have written in a most negative way on many issues.
Now what I find interesting is that you have gone to so much trouble now to write negatively about a whole glad bag of issues that you clearly have no idea about nor understand
EG--- you raise the WW2 Nazi issue( again) -- do you realise you are propagating Kremlin propaganda of the here and now? The allegation is absolute nonsense-- the real Nazis are the Russians .
I am not bothering with the many incorrect conclusions you reach--but what interests me is your motivation--  so please fill us in on your recent visits to the FSU.
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline Gator

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #209 on: November 25, 2014, 03:34:48 PM »
Gator,
   Your analogy of  comparing the “Anglo” colonization of Texas, is not quite “correct’ in my view.  .....Hey, I’m in Texas what can I say!   





BTW, every time I visit Texas it seems the Mexicans are slowly winning the war to take the territory back.   ;)



Quote
Would Russia ever buy territory?

Not even when hell freezes over.








   

Online krimster2

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #210 on: November 25, 2014, 04:21:58 PM »
JayH,
   I have heard many “fairy tales” about Ukraine, the one you propose that Ukraine has in some fundamental way “changed” in the last 5 years would be certainly be one of them, Yanukovych was in power during 4 out of the last 5 years you mention, please tell me what changed during his administration, except for the improved efficiency in plundering of state resources.  You think a riot on Maidan revolutionized Ukraine?  Really, then you must think the Orange Revolution did the same as well.  Nothing has changed in Ukraine, get over it.  Oligarchs are sill oligarchs, politicians are still stealing.   My visiting or not visiting has nothing at all to do with it, furthermore, I didn’t “visit” Ukraine I lived there, huge difference between visiting a country and living there with your family, and experiencing corruption directly, paying the bribes yourself!

“Ukraine.I am sure when Ukraine stabilises...”
Yes, please let us know when this happens, we’re all eager to hear of this event!!!

“because I think your views are coloured by your own unsatisfactory experiences--...
“I have read many of your posts over a period of time-- and I do not doubt the honesty of your posts--but you have written in a most negative way on many issues.”

I just reported my experiences as objectively as possible without embellishment, if you “do not doubt the honesty of my posts"- but yet find that my posts were “negative” than this is your own subjective interpretation

“whole glad bag of issues that you clearly have no idea about nor understand
EG--- you raise the WW2 Nazi issue( again) “

The points I made about many Ukrainians being collaborators with the Nazis are historical facts, easily verifiable (spend 10 minutes on Google) and have nothing at all to do with the “Kremlin”.
I do understand the issues, even to the point of saying that if I were in similar circumstances and had to feed my family during the Nazi occupation that I might be inclined to do the same, but-these-are-facts, you may not like them, they may conflict with your own narrative of a heroic Ukraine opposing Nazi-ism, but history doesn’t show that this was a universal view shared by all Ukrainians

You are not by any means the first person who has accused me of being some kind of Kremlin propagandist for speaking truthfully about Ukraine, of being a “provocateur”.  It’s always much easier to refute the messenger than it is to refute the message.  Seriously, here’s your chance to shine, take any statement of mine that you feel is factually inaccurate, and show proof that it is, I bet you can’t!

You want to know my motivation?  At first my motivation was to tell outsiders what life was like in Ukraine, how cruelly people were treated there, how degraded their lives were.  I did this not in anticipation that I would somehow trigger a positive change, but as a cathartic release of the frustration I felt, I still feel this way, and I don’t believe in any fairy tale that Ukraine has changed and that salvation is just around the corner, in fact just the opposite.

Gator, Mexicans say, “we didn’t cross the border, the border crossed us!!”

Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #211 on: November 25, 2014, 05:46:00 PM »
Boethius,
   "krimster, your allegation of Western Ukrainians being Nazis is inaccurate."
I don't believe that it is, the number of Ukrainians who worked as Kiwis was pretty well documented by the Germans

We would love to have had them, but I assume that this is an unfortunate typo!

Online krimster2

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #212 on: November 25, 2014, 05:56:27 PM »
yes, an unfortunate typo, supposed to be "Hiwi" so sorry!!!

Offline JayH

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #213 on: November 25, 2014, 06:25:36 PM »
JayH,
   I have heard many “fairy tales” about Ukraine, the one you propose that Ukraine has in some fundamental way “changed” in the last 5 years would be certainly be one of them, Yanukovych was in power during 4 out of the last 5 years you mention, please tell me what changed during his administration, except for the improved efficiency in plundering of state resources.  You think a riot on Maidan revolutionized Ukraine?  Really, then you must think the Orange Revolution did the same as well.  Nothing has changed in Ukraine, get over it.  Oligarchs are sill oligarchs, politicians are still stealing.   My visiting or not visiting has nothing at all to do with it, furthermore, I didn’t “visit” Ukraine I lived there, huge difference between visiting a country and living there with your family, and experiencing corruption directly, paying the bribes yourself!

“because I think your views are coloured by your own unsatisfactory experiences--...
“I have read many of your posts over a period of time-- and I do not doubt the honesty of your posts--but you have written in a most negative way on many issues.”

I just reported my experiences as objectively as possible without embellishment, if you “do not doubt the honesty of my posts"- but yet find that my posts were “negative” than this is your own subjective interpretation


The points I made about many Ukrainians being collaborators with the Nazis are historical facts, easily verifiable (spend 10 minutes on Google) and have nothing at all to do with the “Kremlin”.
I do understand the issues, even to the point of saying that if I were in similar circumstances and had to feed my family during the Nazi occupation that I might be inclined to do the same, but-these-are-facts, you may not like them, they may conflict with your own narrative of a heroic Ukraine opposing Nazi-ism, but history doesn’t show that this was a universal view shared by all Ukrainians


You want to know my motivation?  At first my motivation was to tell outsiders what life was like in Ukraine, how cruelly people were treated there, how degraded their lives were.  I did this not in anticipation that I would somehow trigger a positive change, but as a cathartic release of the frustration I felt, I still feel this way, and I don’t believe in any fairy tale that Ukraine has changed and that salvation is just around the corner, in fact just the opposite.



K2-- I note you missed answering when you were last there-why? That is fundamental to my point--your attitude is typical of earlier times-- in effect--outdated by time and particularly recent events.
I think it would be fair to say that you had a bitter personal experience-- and that colours you attitude and fuels the negative.
I am not saying you are disqualified from expressing opinions-- what I am saying is that when you seek to use your exposure as a definitive  on current events -I say it is yesteryears news and outdated-- even your comments in the latest reply referring to Maidan show your lack of understanding of events this year.

My point on Nazis--- it has zero to do with current Ukraine  and nothing to do with the future.
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline calmissile

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #214 on: November 25, 2014, 07:11:06 PM »
K2,
The only comment you have made that is contrary to my experience in Ukraine is the statement that the majority of the fighters in the east are from Western Ukraine.  Wife and I have friends in the battles and none of them are from Western Ukraine.  Just a couple weeks ago we contributed money to several soldiers that were on rotation to Kiev briefly.  One of  my best friends,  a retired Ukraine Border Patrol sergeant got called up to duty recently.  Of our many friends in central and eastern Ukraine, we have been told regularly about their sons being called to duty as well as the ones that volunteer.

The Russian propaganda has portrayed those from Western Ukraine as being pro Western Radicals.  It's an easy bridge to follow this without any evidence to support it.  From what I have read, they are very patriotic and want an independent Ukraine. Unfortunately I don't  know anyone from Western Ukraine so can't comment with first hand knowledge about their beliefs.  Nevertheless, I think your statement is incorrect about who is fighting for Ukraine.
Doug (Calmissile)

Online krimster2

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #215 on: November 25, 2014, 07:33:38 PM »
If MY attitude is outdated, then please contact KyivPost, and tell them their article entitled “Stop Stealing" is out of date, even though it was only published about two weeks ago and you feel that it doesn’t reflect the “new, changed" Ukraine! 

http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/editorial/stop-stealing-371761.html

Yes, you should also tell “Radio Free Europe” that Ukraine has changed so publishing an article like this one:

 http://www.rferl.org/media/video/ukraine-zlochevskiy-palace/26707701.html

about the former minister of environment and natural resources, whose extensive palace exceeds even Yanukovych’s dacha is no longer accurate, because even though he was in office earlier this year, you feel Ukraine has changed.

I could go on and on, oligarch by crooked oligarch, until you reach the only conclusion that is possible to reach, when it comes to substance, Ukraine hasn’t changed, and until the stealing stops, it won’t change. 

The information presented here, has no connection to me, and will be unchanged whether I visit or not. 

It may also interest you to know that to the Russian government I am persona-non-grata, I’m not sure I’d even be allowed entry into Crimea, which is now the territory of Russia, and so don’t have any interest in going, and don’t have any pressing needs to visit elsewhere in Ukraine.  What, fly over Paris and Amsterdam to go visit Ternopil, I don’t think so!

As far as references to WWII and Nazi-ism, yeah not terribly relevant to today’s situation, however if you’ll note it wan’t me who introduced the topic, I merely responded to it, so why fault me for doing so?


Offline JayH

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #216 on: November 25, 2014, 07:47:34 PM »
K2-- I seem to have missed the answer AGAIN !! So-- you have not been there since when? 2007? :)
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #217 on: November 25, 2014, 08:05:20 PM »
Calmissile,


Here's a chart showing various volunteer battalions and their political branches, note: in May 2014 Ukraine authorized the creation of 15,000 to 20,000 irregular combatants in about 30 volunteer battalions, these are Ukraine's primary combatants in the East, there's no way of knowing with certainty what percentage come from the area West of Kiev, but Svoboda and Right Sector are of course and "Carpathian Sich", and the "Azov Battalion", you can from the chart presented above see how the various groups are linked, I would say that from the information it contains that Western Ukraine is the dominant and most active group, and western Ukraine also sends people to other battalions, doesn't mean there aren't people from other regions as well, just that if Western Ukraine should withdraw their battalions, I don't think the remainder would survive very long, also remember that Right Sector is the only volunteer component of the Cyborg's "defending" the Donetsk airport


Offline calmissile

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #218 on: November 25, 2014, 08:08:36 PM »
K-2  Another perhaps false perception you have is there is no change in the corruption in Ukraine.  I cannot argue about corruption at the oligarch level, however I can personally tell you that there is a huge difference in the judiciary and civil servants that man the various government offices.

Dealing with the courts and various government offices over the past 1.5 years, there appears to be very little corruption at these levels.  In fact my wife was warned on several occasions when entering various offices that they will no longer accept any bribes, so please don't offer any.  In one case she was told that all of the civil servants are very scared because of the anti-corruption laws/mandates that were handed down by the president.

Whether you believe it or not, changes for the better are being made weekly.  If you want an update, read the articles on the lustration investigations and how many government employees and politicians have been ineligible to further hold public office.
Doug (Calmissile)

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #219 on: November 25, 2014, 08:09:50 PM »
jayh, I answered, it doesn't matter, it just doesn't matter when I was there last, it's equivalent to asking what color socks I was wearing when I was there last, and that if I had red socks, I would have seen things differently, you're mistaken in your premise that things have changed, I could get in a time machine and go 50 years in the future and it will still be the "same ole, same ole" only hotter, much hotter...

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #220 on: November 25, 2014, 08:21:46 PM »
jayh, I answered, it doesn't matter, it just doesn't matter when I was there last, it's equivalent to asking what color socks I was wearing when I was there last, and that if I had red socks, I would have seen things differently, you're mistaken in your premise that things have changed, I could get in a time machine and go 50 years in the future and it will still be the "same ole, same ole" only hotter, much hotter...

Your beginning to lose credibility with your last post. It's a fair question to ask when you last were there.  It puts your perceptions on events into context.  I did not see it as a personal slam, so no reason to be defensive about it.  I already addressed the one item in your comments that I have recent experience about and think your perceptions are way out of date.

The last sentence of your recent post shows the bias and stubbornness you are experiencing.  I don't see any reason to continue this topic with you.
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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #221 on: November 25, 2014, 08:22:00 PM »
jayh, I answered, it doesn't matter, it just doesn't matter when I was there last, it's equivalent to asking what color socks I was wearing when I was there last, and that if I had red socks, I would have seen things differently, you're mistaken in your premise that things have changed, I could get in a time machine and go 50 years in the future and it will still be the "same ole, same ole" only hotter, much hotter...

K2-- so it was when? 2005?  To repeat--it does not disqualify you having an opinion--there has been far greater ignorance expressed on the forums by people that have never been there-- so your insight still has merit-on some topics!

What you are not recognising is a huge shift-- a change of direction and attitudes.You keep harking back to issues of previous times--those very issues are what maidan was about--ie changing Ukraine to create a future.You dismiss that glibly--and keep harking back-my point is that you simply don't know! Your opinions were formed and are now stuck in an earlier time.
The forum has seen a procession this year of others like you-- that simply dont get it !
Calmissile refers to anecdotal personal experiences of examples of change. I can also quote personal experiences and knowledge of a shift--plus lot's more. These are small examples-but real life current experiences.
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #222 on: November 25, 2014, 08:31:47 PM »
I've been going to UA since early 2004 and I see new changes every time I go. To me it's always been a step ahead of where I left it before.

 Many places still look the same w/o changes but others are better.

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #223 on: November 25, 2014, 09:14:14 PM »
Boethius,
   I don’t believe we disagree all that much, you say the glass is half full, I say it’s half empty, but either statement reflects how much liquid is present.

I am well acquainted with the reality in Ukraine both past and present, I am alive today, only because of the fact that two generations ago my ancestors left Ukraine and came to the USA.

That could be said of many Jewish Americans whose ancestors emigrated from Germany, France, Italy, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Poland, the Baltics, etc.   

Quote
I lived in Ukraine three years and traveled throughout Ukraine as much as I could, besides my home in “Krim” I visited Kiev quite a bit and have been to Lvov, Odessa, Ternopil, Chernigov and more.

I lived there longer, and visited all of those cities as well, although I always say L'viv, because I am Ukrainian. 

I speak Ukrainian fluently, so fluently, locals don't know I am from the West though, because of my wooden "L", they assume I am a Ukrainian Pole (although my "L" is harder than that of a Pole).  I also can speak Russian.

Quote
Currently, the situation in Eastern Ukraine is rapidly turning desperate for those unfortunate enough to not be able to leave the conflict zone.  In addition to the constant destruction, pensions haven’t been paid in many months, banks and industry closed, the availability of food and other goods has been greatly reduced, gas and coal for heating reduced or eliminated, and critical infrastructure destroyed.

That is not Ukraine's problem.  It is a problem for the DNR/LNR.  Although I have tremendous sympathy for the people in the conflict zone who do not have the means to leave, I fully understand, and support, cutting off pensions to regions controlled by enemies who wish to annihilate the Ukrainian state. 

Quote
If the central bank of Ukraine collapses, and it is very near that already, then some of the conditions in Eastern Ukraine will be the “new normal” for the rest of Ukraine as well.  Who will the people then support, a government that is powerless to control its own economic destiny and presided over its own economic collapse, or one that is selling 200 billion USD/year in oil and gas?
 

Russia's economy is already suffering from the drop in oil prices and sanctions.  I also think you underestimate Ukrainian resolve in this matter.  Most Ukrainians understand this conflict was orchestrated in Moscow.  There is a reason they took to the streets last year, even though economically, the union with Russia was a better deal than the EU Association Agreement.

Quote
Even the USA and Europe are being very “measured” in using sanctions against Russia and are very carefully choosing their language, using words like  “incursion” and not “invasion”.  When you see how much the West is exposed to Russian oil and gas, banking, etc, etc., they are stepping very lightly, they don’t want to disturb the “Bear”.

No, that is always the language of diplomats. 

In two years, several LEG terminals will have been completed.  That is a potential game changer, as Russia will no longer have a lock on a currently captive market.  Everyone discusses the huge impact sanctions will have on the EU.  However, if you look at trade, even with Russia's largest trading partners in the EU, it is still relatively small, in terms of overall trade.  It is not a positive, in my opinion, I would prefer to see a Russia more open to the world, and using its influence in a positive manner, but it is what it is.  I don't expect more from former KGB officers and nomenklatura.


Quote
I am indeed impressed by the volunteers who are not only risking their lives fighting in Donbas but are doing so at their own expense, a necessity because Ukrainian state officials looted not only bank accounts but armory’s as well.  However the volunteers numbers are relatively small, less than 1/10 of 1% of the population of Ukraine.  Where are the rest of the people?  With the thousands of Ukrainian military personnel stationed in Crimea, why didn’t at least one of them lift a gun and fight the Russian “incursion”?

As others have noted, not everyone is a volunteer.  Yes, there are volunteer battalions, but there are draftees in the army as well.  My husband's classmate, a native Kyianin, was drafted into the army and deployed to the Donetsk region.  My SIL was working in the hospital, full of locals injured in Donbas.  Most of them were not volunteers.

Now, I will concede, history favours your perspective.  But, I do think there has been a change in the population, and what they are willing to tolerate.  I think if things get worse, people will either emigrate (which is occurring already), or will be back on the streets. 

On corruption, I will agree with krimster.  Ukraine is still incredibly corrupt.  Currently, there are government officials and oligarchs buying coal from Russia, then marking it up 30% to sell to Ukraine.  The attitude is to steal as much as possible and leave.  That is why it is important to trace Yanukovych's money, and to keep him, his clan, and their families, on sanctions lists.  Money outside Russia should be confiscated if its origins cannot be proven.   International lawsuits demanding a return of funds held in Russian banks must be commenced.  And, if those fail, they stay on sanctions lists.  This must be done down the line, to all who have stolen money.  I don't think Ukraine has the political will to do that, because most of its politicians are corrupt.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 10:04:34 PM by Boethius »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #224 on: November 25, 2014, 09:36:03 PM »
CalMissile and others,
   The roots of Ukraine’s systemic corruption are quite deep and are nearly three centuries old.  They were institutionalized under Peter the Great’s creation of Russia’s Civil Service system which was created without a budget to pay its employees.  Peter the Great told his civil servants that, “if they were smart enough to get the job, they were smart enough to figure out a way to make money from it”. I’m amazed that anyone thinks that in such a short period of time that because of a riot in Kiev last year that “things have really changed”, why if that’s all it takes I guess the riot in Ferguson, Mo. last night will rid the USA of racism, hoo-ray!!!  Don’t take my word for it, after all I was’t there yesterday to see these wonderous changes for myself, ask an investor in Ukraine, like this fellow mentioned in the Financial Times here:

http://blogs.ft.com/beyond-brics/2014/11/04/guest-post-ukraine-has-done-nothing-to-tackle-corruption-it-must-learn-from-georgia/


Goodness me, here’s an article from no less than the euromaidanpress about corruption in Ukraines’ ministry of health, I guess the euromaidanpress didn’t get the memo that Ukraine has changed!!

http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/11/02/ukraines-ministry-of-health-diagnosis-of-chronic-corruption/

ask Bloomberg, which reports on the coal purchase Ukraine was forced to make in August after being cut-off from Donbas, upon investigation, it was found that...


“After Ukraine’s President Poroshenko, contra Prime Minister Yatsenyuk, was involved in scrapping a deal to buy expensive but useful South African coal in lieu of some Russian coal or oil, investigations into the matter found that,

    There may be another reason for the spat [between Poroshenko and Yatsenyuk]. “The coal market is being redivided in Ukraine today,”  said Vladimir Zinevich, director of state-owned company Ukrinterenergo, which is responsible for the coal imports. “It looks to me as though the coal deliveries from South Africa are a nuisance to somebody.”

    Separate investigative reports from Pravda.com.ua and Theinsider.ua suggested that the “somebody” in question could be Sergei Kuzyara, a coal trader with close ties to Ukraine’s deposed President Viktor Yanukovych. Kuzyara’s plans to buy coal from Russia and the rebels in eastern Ukraine had found support in the Poroshenko camp. Such an arrangement could be lucrative. The rebels, despite the assistance they receive from Russia, need funds and would be willing to accept low prices for the coal they seized from the warehouses of state-owned mines.

    At the same time, companies owned by Rinat Akhmetov, Ukraine’s richest man and a Yanukovych ally, continue to export coal. At a recent Energy Ministry meeting, an Akhmetov representative explained that his company had long-term contracts to honor and needed the hard currency. Any purchases by the Ukrainian government would be paid in hryvnia, which has been losing value.

Get it, Poroshenko is going to buy Ukrainian coal from the separatists who will use the money to continue the war!

So what’s changed in Ukraine?

What, I lost my credibility because of a reference to a “time machine”, my goodness, I’ll have to go back in time and remove the reference, ha,ha!!  Oh no, I just met myself traveling backwards in time, just at the point when I was going to reveal the last time I was actually in Ukraine and accidentally created a singularity, so now I’ll have to go back even before that and...






 

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