'Code of Conduct' for Men....

[Admin]

Some of you may recall that we initiated a project some time back to commit to written form, a simple and straight-forward 'Code of Conduct' for men involved in the pursuit of women from the FSU. That project suffered from distractions to other pressing matters, but recently, we have seen clear evidence of the need for such a document.

This announcement is to resurrect the project, and to announce several participants who have agreed to form the 'core team' and seed the ideas, and gather additional inputs from RWD members. Charter is to develop the 'Men's Code of Conduct' and to identity areas needing further development in the future.

Gator has agreed to lead the effort, and we have included the following confirmed team members:

* Kvinna
* Lily
* Daveman
* BillyB
* KenC
* Kuna

I hope to be able to announce additional core team participants soon - but EVERYONE is invited, and encouraged, to participate in this important initiative.

Our hope, and expectation, is this will go a great distance toward resolving misunderstandings and helping to promote integrity and honesty in the various interactions between FSU women and Western men.

The board which has been established to host this project may be found here -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?board=39.0

Please provide your assistance and support in this important initiative.

- Dan

[I/O]

And I am seeing how many of the married people incuded in that list?

I/O

[Admin]

And I am seeing how many of the married people incuded in that list?

I/O

Working on that. We will have broad representation.

Remember too - this is only the core team. ALL RWD members are encouraged to participate actively.

- Dan

[Rvrwind]

Okay, I already got a problem with this!!!
Why is it that the men are seen to need a 'Code of Conduct'???
I see this as just another attack on men, something I would expect to see from Antidate & the FemiNazi's out there, not from RWD.
Why not a 'Code of Ethics' for the women???
How about a 'Code of Ethics' for people in general???
Ya' see where I'm going with this right???
Maybe I'm being a little oversensitive but I'm damn tired of being a man & the brunt of every little thing & time that a woman feels she is wronged by a man. I see this as an equal rights issue right off the top & I see men as usual losing the battle.
So I guess I should say, what else is new!!!

[TexasBoar]

. . . we have included the following confirmed team members:

* Kvinna

     

With Russia's answer to Sharpton on board, I guess y'all can look forward to 20+ pages of vindictive crap there, too.

~Boar

[Gator]

I will put something together to get this started, and I will get back soon, real soon.

[Bruno]

Okay, I already got a problem with this!!!
Why is it that the men are seen to need a 'Code of Conduct'???

Because it is a men forum... mainly newbies men seek information here and not on antidate... but you are right... maybe the antidate ladies need to start a similar topic on antidate and build a "code of Conduct" for women...

Simply, don't kill the project before it start... let see the result and like always here, the membership will have the last word...

Richard, you are agency owner and you have the reputation to be very select about your ladies AND male customer... I think that your comments can be very interesting for make something good from these "code of conduct"

[BC]

Richard, you are agency owner and you have the reputation to be very select about your ladies AND male customer... I think that your comments can be very interesting for make something good from these "code of conduct"

Richard,

If this is the case..

Where do you draw the 'line'?

[Rvrwind]

Richard,

If this is the case..

Where do you draw the 'line'?

What do you mean, where do I draw the line?
I draw the line when I see something that soley targets one gender or the other or one group or the other. It reeks of bias its that simple. We are all adults we are all people, we should have the good sense to figure it out ourselves.
What good & to what end does a 'Code of Ethics' for men serve?
You really think some numbnuts loser will answer the questions truthfully if he knows his answers may jepordize whatever this "Code of Ethics' is supposed to police? I think not.
I don't think it will get any more of a hearty welcome than the 'Agency Code of Ethics' got & at least the 'Agency Code of Ethics' was targeting the right group, the agencies, not the men & women within' them. This is targeting 'men' & I see that as dancing with the Devil & then to allow the likes of the AntiDate cheerleader aboard only reinforces that opinion.
The name AntiDate alone speaks exactly what their agenda is & exactly where this little fiasco is headed. Sorry but I calls 'em the way I sees 'em.

[catzenmouse]

What do you mean, where do I draw the line?
I draw the line when I see something that soley targets one gender or the other or one group or the other. It reeks of bias its that simple. We are all adults we are all people, we should have the good sense to figure it out ourselves.

IIRC we also initiated a similar initiative for ladies and if it goes as was suggested it will fit in well so this flows well into that.

What good & to what end does a 'Code of Ethics' for men serve?
You really think some numbnuts loser will answer the questions truthfully if he knows his answers may jepordize whatever this "Code of Ethics' is supposed to police? I think not.[/quote]

Because this board is mainly populated by men so it is a good place to start with that side of the equation. If the "numbnuts" doesn't answer questions honeslty now he never will but we cannot focus of that. Idiots will always be idiots and liars will always be liars. This will only work when honesty is involved. The liars will end up on the AD blacklist eventually.

I don't think it will get any more of a hearty welcome than the 'Agency Code of Ethics' got & at least the 'Agency Code of Ethics' was targeting the right group, the agencies, not the men & women within' them. This is targeting 'men' & I see that as dancing with the Devil & then to allow the likes of the AntiDate cheerleader aboard only reinforces that opinion.
The name AntiDate alone speaks exactly what their agenda is & exactly where this little fiasco is headed. Sorry but I calls 'em the way I sees 'em.

The ACoE has a magnificent potential. The problem is with getting people to actually subscribe to it and to the ethics involved. Many are Leary of it thinking that it has no teeth. It is up to the individuals involved to put teeth into this. Who will do this? If AntiDate is involved then the teeth become much sharper.

Only time and effort and initiative will tell.

Ken

[I/O]

There is....................No, I promised myself I wouldn't.    It is simply worth remembering that a "Camel is a Horse built by a committee."

I/O

[Gator]

A concurrent thread has fomented much debate and aroused intellectual passion over the past couple of days.  It would be splendid if we can channel that momentum into this project and produce something positive.  It will not be easy, yet it can be done. And I don't think it will resemble a camel nor a platypus.

Background

Actually, this idea was floating around long before this recent episode.  It was initially thought as a guideline or “urging suggestion” for agencies to give to clients, both women and men.  Hopefully this time we can write something useful and brief (not more than a page in length) so that people would actually read it.

What would be included?  Nothing that a well behaved gentleman would not already know.  I try to behave as a gentlemen, and my intentions are good, yet I have insulted more than one RW.  It is easy to make a mistake in a foreign culture with my brain laden with misperceptions about Russia and RW.

This is all about respect, respecting the woman and respecting yourself.  Respect is very important to RW; many express the exact word in their profiles.  If you show respect, you may just build the trust that she needs to believe in you and to give up her family, friends, country and job to follow you to a foreign land.   If you disrespect a RW, be prepared for a severe mental beating.

Tentative Plan

I see this evolving as follows:  

1.  A brainstorming session to collect ideas.  Who has the best ideas? The person with the most ideas.  The worst ideas?   The person with the most ideas.  So the objective is to gather as many ideas as possible, without critique as that could discourage any more ideas.

2.  The committee disappears and returns with a draft proposal (or two).

3.  Open discussion about the proposal.

4.  A final draft followed by a period for further comment.

5.  The final what ever it is.


Solicit Your Ideas

This will be not be easy to write.  The task of defining the scope is difficult, as it possibly will address: deceit (truth in correspondence), non-consensual actions, blatant disrespect (posting of photos, etc.), sex tourism (and even that is difficult to describe), etc.  How do you distinguish between flirtation and harassment?  A sex tourist vs. a likeable man meeting women sequentially?  On the other side, a professional dater vs. a picky woman?  

So the committee would greatly appreciate your ideas.  There is no bad idea at this stage.  The more ideas we have, the easier our job will be.

So if you have something to post about the committee membership and the initial plan I just presented, please do it in this thread. Admittedly, to get something out now, I have not discussed anything with anyone so the finally formed committee may have a different plan.

If you have ideas about the scope of what we should address in this guideline, or any specifics about wording, please do so in the thread that was started last summer.  There are two pages of ideas already presented here:

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?board=39.0


General

I just request that we withhold comment on anyone’s idea at this stage.  You critical comments will be welcomed when the committee has prepared a draft proposal.

Enforcement is well beyond the purview of this little committee.    In this regard, the term “code” may be misleading as it implies some legal standard. It is more of a guideline.

I promise that this will not be a Christian dating pamphlet nor a re-declaration of international human rights nor an International Sex Guide.

Again, please refrain from criticizing anybody's specific ideas at this stage.  It is too early for idealistic contempt. Try to be positive.  You will have ample opportunity when a draft is presented.  And, at that time, keep in mind that if you disapprove of something, you should also give us an alternative.

Thank you!

[Admin]

Okay, I already got a problem with this!!!
Why is it that the men are seen to need a 'Code of Conduct'???
I see this as just another attack on men, something I would expect to see from Antidate & the FemiNazi's out there, not from RWD.
Why not a 'Code of Ethics' for the women???
How about a 'Code of Ethics' for people in general???
Ya' see where I'm going with this right???
Maybe I'm being a little oversensitive but I'm damn tired of being a man & the brunt of every little thing & time that a woman feels she is wronged by a man. I see this as an equal rights issue right off the top & I see men as usual losing the battle.
So I guess I should say, what else is new!!!

Richard,

This is really not new at all. When we conceptualized the CMA initiative, we recognized that Agencies need a Code of Ethics - and *both* men and women need a 'Code of Conduct'. All of this is aimed at creating a more honest and ethical environment.

This was NOT driven by recent events - although the recent events clearly shone a light on the need to do this, hence, it was a timely (if unfortunate for the principals) eruption.

We start with a focus on us men, because this is largely a forum made up of men. At the appropriate point in the future, we will develop something similar for women.

Think of this in the same vein as the Agency Code of Ethics - only focused on the men involved.

Make sense?

I am quite anxious to see what Gator and crew develop - because I expect it to be well-considered and direct in application. Of course, we have no enforcement mechanism - but the mere fact of publishing a set of guidelines will, IMO, be of great benefit to all concerned.

- Dan

[Admin]

There is....................No, I promised myself I wouldn't.    It is simply worth remembering that a "Camel is a Horse built by a committee."

I/O

Actually, the committee is there to stimulate things and insure the project moves forward. The project is not at all unlike the previous two projects which turned out successful end products - the RWD FAQ's which jb moderated and drove to conclusion, and the Agency Code of Ethics which became the cornerstone of the Certified Marriage Agencies initiative.

ALL members of RWD are welcome to participate, and it is hoped that everyone is very active in the development of the final product. We want..... no, we *NEED* something published to provide structure and framework for what we collectively consider to be ethically-sound behaviors on the part of we men involved in this pursuit.

This project seeks to accomplish just that.

- Dan

[Daveman]

This is still early of course. Remember that often times more is gained from the journey than from arriving at the destination.

This endeavor will force interaction in some ways which can only be beneficial.  I do believe something good can come out of this process as a direct result of the interaction involved. 

Whether you buy into the idea or not, that's your business, but don't hinder the process with an "eye for an eye" mentality and mudslinging.  In this thread, for this project, everyone here starts with a clean slate. There is no past. There is simply how we interact and go from here.

I personally welcome Kvinna to this project, and I look forward to getting know her as a person, her thoughts as a Russian woman, and as a partner in a common goal.  I also look forward to working with and getting to know better Lily, BillyB, KenC, and Gator on the committee, and everyone who is willing to participate.  The interaction which will occur for this project to come to fruition should lead to some very positive developments.  I ask that whatever your feelings or thoughts on past events, that they be left at the door so that not only can we build something that is worthwhile, but also build a bridge to better understanding.

Even if we do build a camel.. at least a camel can withstand some pretty rough conditions..   

Dave

[LEGAL]

All I see is a Trojan horse.


LEGAL

[LEGAL]

I personally welcome Kvinna to this project, and I look forward to getting know her as a person, her thoughts as a Russian woman, and as a partner in a common goal. 

Dave

While you welcome, Kvinna and girls on antidate just mock at Americans - "Americosi - khrenov  supermen - svora nedo@bkov" (sorry, guys, I will not translate it, please ask you Russian wives).

Да пошли они на х@р! Читаю весь этот бред и тихо обалдеваю: что, взрослым мужикам делать больше нечего, как русским женщинам кости перемывать? Читаю в соседнем топике бред о волосатых подмышках - это уже ДИАГНОЗ :ninja: Америкосы вообще любят диктовать всем остальным, что кому делать, это у них национальная черта, супермены хреновы. А мы еще и дискутируем с ними. Перед кем они, собственно говоря, порочат имидж русских женщин? Только перед такой же сворой недо@бков, как и они сами. Нормальный адекватный мужик с мозгами на это не поведется.

http://forum.antidate.org/index.php?showtopic=6484&st=400

Olga.

[LEGAL]

This announcement is to resurrect the project, and to announce several participants who have agreed to form the 'core team' and seed the ideas, and gather additional inputs from RWD members. Charter is to develop the 'Men's Code of Conduct' and to identity areas needing further development in the future.

Gator has agreed to lead the effort, and we have included the following confirmed team members:

* Kvinna
* Lily
* Daveman
* BillyB
* KenC

I hope to be able to announce additional core team participants soon - but EVERYONE is invited, and encouraged, to participate in this important initiative.

Our hope, and expectation, is this will go a great distance toward resolving misunderstandings and helping to promote integrity and honesty in the various interactions between FSU women and Western men.

Please provide your assistance and support in this important initiative.

- Dan

When was this star chamber meeting?

When was the core team started?

Who did it include?

Why is * Kvinna at the top of the list?

Why were not members here asked first?

why not have married members make the code of conduct?

Gator has agreed means there was a private meeting, Why?

Is RWD in business with anti date or going to be?

Is there a merger ?


LEGAL

[Kuna]

I think this is a very postive initiative and is another sign of the integrity of RWD.

I'm not so much conerned about the impact that the Code of Conduct will have on those men that already act with integrity... and I ackowneldge that it will have no impact on men who consciously go out of their way to act inappropriately... but I do hope it helps to stear those men in the middle in a more positive direction.

May I give an example?  When I was starting ooout I thought I knew what was appropriate and those ideas we're refined somewhat by discussion within RWD.  I would have appreciated having a resource like a Code of Conduct to provide me with fdirection on how both sides (men and women) saw "appropriate behaviour".

Kuna

[Cameraguy]

Shouldn't Kvinna and her McCarthy committee be required to adhere to a "code of conduct" before being asked to develop one for men?

Just a thought...

~CG

[ScottinCrimea]

Many times here we chide some man or other about inappropriate behavior.  This will give a common base upon which we can make such judgements.  As it stands now, he will hear opinions that can be all over the map in terms of respect, morality, gentlemanly behavior, and individual perspectives about what is approriate behavior in Russia and Ukraine.  It won't solve all the problems, but neither did Webster's first dictionary. (today is the anniversary of it's first publication, by the way)

[Admin]

When was this star chamber meeting?

When was the core team started?

Who did it include?

Why is * Kvinna at the top of the list?

Why were not members here asked first?

why not have married members make the code of conduct?

Gator has agreed means there was a private meeting, Why?

Is RWD in business with anti date or going to be?

Is there a merger ?


LEGAL

Taking your questions in order:

>>When was this star chamber meeting?<<

I first approached Gator and Kvinna some months ago - maybe 6 months or more ago. It lost momentum because of distractions (mine) with other issues.

>>When was the core team started?<<

See response above.

>>Who did it include?<<

This was my brainchild - such as it is - vetted through discussions with a few others - and further vetted through discussions with a broader group as the idea was developing.

>>Why is * Kvinna at the top of the list?<<

Gator and Kvinna were the two members who I had approached earlier, so they were the first people I thought of when the idea resurfaced. There is nothing more insidious that that.

>>Why were not members here asked first?<<

Actually, they were. Once again, if you look at the RWD Projects section, I think you will find some of the older posts on the topic.

>>why not have married members make the code of conduct?<<

At the time of my announcement, I had not yet heard from everyone. I still have not yet heard from everyone, but one of the guys, KenC, has agreed to participate.

>>Gator has agreed means there was a private meeting, Why?<<

Yes, I sent quite a few PM's asking if people were interested in participating.

You see, there is a natural problem which occurs in ANY project undertaking. There is a trade-off between whether it needs to be done quickly, or whether it needs to be maximally-inclusive. In all cases, one is traded for the other. If a project needs to be done quickly, then there is little time to achieve consensus. If consensus is required, then more time must be allocated. In this instance, since this was an old topic - AND - since there was a recent uproar which might have been averted if we had something of this sort - I opted to move quickly.

>>Is RWD in business with anti date or going to be?<<

I honestly have NO IDEA why this would even be a question. The mere fact that RWD might invite others to collaborate - particularly those who have strong and opposing viewpoints, simply means that we are seeking the best possible product which considers ALL point-of-view.

>>Is there a merger ?<<

See my answer above.

Look for a PM from me in the near term.

- Dan

[2tallbill]

I am trying to find words to express how stupid an idea is to put Kvinna on something like this and I just sat here with my mouth open totally incredulous and in disbelief. I started to type and then stopped. I started again and stopped.

I wrote something that I deleted because it was as hate filled as her and her site. So I calmed down and simply want to say a few things and let others say their piece.

SHE HAS NO ETHICS!!!
SHE ALLOWS LIES by anonymous people to stand without any fact to back it up.
SHE posts vile, hate and vitriol
SHE threatens decent people who disagree with her
SHE has openly attacked many members of this forum and has promised to do more.

Does anyone know the lies, hate and crap that are on her website?

Just my two really pissed off kopecks,

Bill

[Admin]

I am trying to find words to express how stupid an idea is to put Kvinna on something like this and I just sat here with my mouth open totally incredulous and in disbelief. I started to type and then stopped. I started again and stopped.

I wrote something that I deleted because it was as hate filled as her and her site. So I calmed down and simply want to say a few things and let others say their piece.

SHE HAS NO ETHICS!!!
SHE ALLOWS LIES by anonymous people to stand without any fact to back it up.
SHE posts vile, hate and vitriol
SHE threatens decent people who disagree with her
SHE has openly attacked many members of this forum and has promised to do more.

Does anyone know the lies, hate and crap that are on her website?

Just my two really pissed off kopecks,

Bill

Bill,

Do you believe there is ANY possibility of reconciliation if we sit here on our principles and fire back at perceived wrongdoings?

I know you feel maligned - and I believe you were - and I believe Kvinna fully understands all of that. So from here, we can hunker down on our side of the bunker and lob grenades in that direction - or we can try to work with Kvinna and her group to see if there is any chance of finding some common ground on which we can agree.

We may be unable. If that is the case - so be it.

OTOH, if we *are* able to find some common ground - and if we are able to commit our *common* position to writing, then misunderstandings such as the one you faced might be averted.

Do you think it is not worth taking a try at it?

- Dan

[KenC]

Dan,
A simple question: How can you expect someone to help develop guidelines involving integrity and ethics when they have proven not to have any?
KenC