'Code of Conduct' for Men....

[BillyB]

Yes Olga, the ladies at antidate are already talking about the armpit hair thread and that Americans like to dictate everything. You are not the only RW lady at these forums who believe the women of AD to be bitter. There are others who have spoken since Bill's thread is listed elswhere.

Some may disagree with who should be on the committeee but there are and will be some more people on the committe who are excellent individuals. I for one think Gator is an excellent choice to lead this. The more excellent individuals, the better.

Most everything you learn in life comes from another man, it's how you put what you learned together that makes the man you are. Most people come here to learn. Maybe about a scammer, agencies, trip tips, RW in general, etc... Hopefully they learn more than what they seek and become a better individual after observing conduct of some fine posters here. Will a code of conduct improve lives quicker? Maybe but most will still need to learn through observing others. Even though most men have observed the conduct of a gentleman, many still refuse to be one. We can only help the men who want to learn.

I once debated Zvi, Kvinna's man, at Antidate's English forum. He ridiculed me and others and called me names such as stupid for believing the holocaust happened. I wondered why I debated a person who is set in his ways but it's not about me or my feelings, it's about the other people reading who may start to devalue certain parts of history. I did not want that to happen so I continued to debate in a more gentlemanly way than Zvi. Kvinna is polite and debates civilized compared to Zvi. Why does Kvinna associate herself with such a man who disrespects others when she doesn't like people who disrespects RW? I don't know. Maybe if she sees how the men here operate and conduct themselves, she and the ladies at AD will long for something better. Kvinna sets the tone at AD. Set a good example and plant a good seed with her and there may be a good harvest over there. The way I see it, this is not about me or us at RWD, it's for the benefit of men who may read and want to learn something from the code of conduct and for the benefit of the ladies of AD.

For the record, I was not on Dan's first wave of PM's to get invited to this party and I'm not insulted. I was one he "forgot" about and I'm sure there were others as he has mentioned.

My credentials pertaining to FSU women are I was in a serious relationship with an FSU woman since 1999 and married her. With the exception of the period after divorce, I continued to have relationships with FSU women and am now engaged. But...some of you forget most every man here was once married if not currently married and each person should be judged as an individual. Some were the cause of their divorce, some were not. We have some outstanding individuals who are now single and would be a fine catch for any woman and we have some married men with issues possibly on the path to another divorce.

Like Kuna, I'll post some of my ideas in the open. I'm confident Gator can come up with something very sensible as the final draft and I'll support his final wording as I'm confident in his capabilities. I'm sure someone could benefit from it although it won't be from as many as some of us would like. It's not about us, but the code of conduct should be a reflection of the best of us.

[Bruno]

Dan,
A simple question: How can you expect someone to help develop guidelines involving integrity and ethics when they have proven not to have any?
KenC

Hmmmmmm.... history repeat... can you remember the history of the Europe...

End of the WWI ... Germany is put at the side, humiliated, taken of all his possession... result of this is the possibility for a Adolf Hilter to take the power, making grow the hate to the rest of Europe in the heart of German...

End of the WWII ... America come with a never use solution... no more plumder after the peace treaty, but reconstruction... give a chance for the loosing country to start on a new foot...

Result : no more war in country where these system was used... it was a great idea from America... Now, German are good guys... they are the more anti-fascit in Europa...

So, not not make the same here... give the chance to both side to make a honorable peace and build something better where so fight will never happen again...

So project that Dan try to start is not for correct the mistake of the past but for make a better future...

Some compare it to the CMA who lead to almost no result... yes, the CMA don't grow... not because it is bad but because the rules become more strong from one level to the other... because it is the first take that a real physical control and a check of document is proposed... i think that a lot of agency fear a real control ! But with time, maybe the MOB business will use the CMA like they have use the ISO certification... years was needed but now, business with ISO certification ( far to be free ) use it like publicity...

The "code of conduct" will follow a similar way... slowly becoming a standart... and AD girls, specially if they leader Kvinna have participate, can use these "code of conduct" for "judge" is a man is good or not... No more Bill topic based on feeling and wind... but comment using the frame of the "code of conduct". The guy who will follow the rule will be not listed...

In some way, by inviting Kvinna to participate, Dan have show that he was a great stratege... excluding the antidate girls will change nothing... by inviting the leader to participate, AD girls will accept more easily the rules writter and adopt them for her judgment...

Guys, it is only "politic" at a forum level... Dan is simply more "collaboration" that "destruction"... Good move since destruction mean free move for all the bad men and women...

[Bruno]

Dave with all do respect you are one of the newest members here at RWD and you have been asked to be the UN  two words BS.  Married men should have been contacted first. Please explain to all of us with about your vast experience in the FSU and understanding of the culture.
My family has been living and doing business with the FSU government when it was the Soviet Union. Please don't patronize me with more of your BS. In my business we deal in facts and facts are facts and crap is crap.

Legal,

I was contacted too... yep, no married but was married during 5 years... have some experience from the communist time too... but not sure that these experience will be needed now... Russian change so fast, specialy after the end of communism...

I have refuse to be in the core because i have no the time... but i have accept to act like member of RWD and put my comment when needed...

No wishing participate is your right... but try continue the war yourself is really crazy... you remember me of the soldat of Japan who have continue to fight on some Island long time after the war was finish...

Same if Dave is a newbie, he seem to have a clear mind, to be moderate, to be wishing help... having the knowledge and using it for destroy is not use for the forum...

[LEGAL]

BillyB,
as you have said Kvinna sets the tone at AD. Yes, she does. Two members of RWD are named as morally depraved person, billy-goat, old  impotent, sexual giant and so on and men'  "nicknames" are next to links of their photos.

Olga

 

[Rvrwind]

I worked on the FAQ project because the goal there was informational, this project's thrust is to influence, not inform.   I think there is a big difference between the two and there is a line of freedoms we must respect, and not cross over that line and try to become cyber police and impose someone's arbitrary rules of conduct on others.

I think this is a bad idea.

Sorry but I'm with jb & others on this. I don't see the point.
What I do see is more interference in peoples private affairs of which frankly speaking are none of our damn business.
People in this endeavour are all adults or at the outset are perceived to be. Let them handle their own affairs & use their common sense, if they have any, to sort through it themselves. I tire of all these little things coming up & making rules (just like the government) to protect people from themselves & their own stupidity.
Let me ask a couple of questions -
1/ What is it you are trying to achieve - An informational pamphlet or a set of rules for those involved to follow?
2/ Who is going to distribute the information & police it?
3/ Without penalties or consequences of what real value is it?
4/ Have you ever seen a leopard change its spots? (Sorry thats a rhetorical question no answer needed)
What I see being brought into play here is what I already do in my agency. Any honest agency would do the same & your certainly not going to get the dishonest ones to participate just as they don't participate in the ACofE. Yet they are still in business, still making tons of money & still laughing at our ethics.
I see a more effective & righteous cause in lobbying governments around the world to pass laws & legislation to put a halt to agencies that don't adhere to the ACofE. Put some teeth into it with punishment to back it up. Sure a big project but I see it as more beneficial than some pamphlet that has no teeth or consequences & that most people won't even read!
I was asked to participate, but I too must decline. I have not the time that will be needed & am as you can see a bit of the Devil's advocate in this. I will post my thoughts & such in this thread but I must decline direct participation.

[LEGAL]

I would ask everyone who knows Olga and I to please try to compromise and give there best to resolve this situation. THE SIGN ON A NOBLE PERSON IS ONE WHO COMPROMISES.
Dave if I was to harsh on you I humbly apologize.


LEGAL

[Admin]

Sorry but I'm with jb & others on this. I don't see the point.
What I do see is more interference in peoples private affairs of which frankly speaking are none of our damn business.
People in this endeavour are all adults or at the outset are perceived to be. Let them handle their own affairs & use their common sense, if they have any, to sort through it themselves. I tire of all these little things coming up & making rules (just like the government) to protect people from themselves & their own stupidity.
Let me ask a couple of questions -
1/ What is it you are trying to achieve - An informational pamphlet or a set of rules for those involved to follow?
2/ Who is going to distribute the information & police it?
3/ Without penalties or consequences of what real value is it?
4/ Have you ever seen a leopard change its spots? (Sorry thats a rhetorical question no answer needed)
What I see being brought into play here is what I already do in my agency. Any honest agency would do the same & your certainly not going to get the dishonest ones to participate just as they don't participate in the ACofE. Yet they are still in business, still making tons of money & still laughing at our ethics.
I see a more effective & righteous cause in lobbying governments around the world to pass laws & legislation to put a halt to agencies that don't adhere to the ACofE. Put some teeth into it with punishment to back it up. Sure a big project but I see it as more beneficial than some pamphlet that has no teeth or consequences & that most people won't even read!
I was asked to participate, but I too must decline. I have not the time that will be needed & am as you can see a bit of the Devil's advocate in this. I will post my thoughts & such in this thread but I must decline direct participation.

Richard,

Gator already made the point, but I will try to emphasize it.

I believe that a great many mistakes are created by sheer ignorance - NOT out of malice. I believe that when guys first get involved in this endeavor, many have no clue about the cultural differences and possible mistakes - the issues of appropriate behavior on the internet - and so on.

If we can develop a simple "Code of Conduct" that guys can read and which provides them a tip or two they would have missed otherwise - then it has accomplished the intended objective.

As far as enforcement, of course we have no enforcement mechanism - and there will be guys who insist on acting in a boorish manner no matter what is written - by us or anyone else.

All we can do is what we have proposed - which is to gather information into a usable format designed to help guys avoid pitfalls and problems, and which articulates a standard. It is up to them to follow, or not, the standard - but at least one will have been agreed and published and promoted. That *is* more than what we have now.

- Dan

[Kuna]

I believe that a great many mistakes are created by sheer ignorance - NOT out of malice.

Excellent point!

Does anyone think that Bill posted the pics with any malicious intent?  He simply didn't understand how upset the women would get.

A Code of Conduct will provide a warning for others in the future.

Can anyone else think of things we should and shouldn't be doing?

Kuna

[Jooky]

Can anyone else think of things we should and shouldn't be doing?

Yes, we should not be establishing a "Code of Conduct" for adult men. Save it for your children.

[LEGAL]

About posting photos.

I think if guy posts photos of girls without their permission it is the right only of these girls to have a grudge against the guy but not right of some desperate women who want to play a role of Heaven Judge  outlawing this guy as sex tourist or dangerous person and moreover to dictate him their will. What about women' reputation whose photos were posted? Sorry, guys, simple example: if woman doesn't want a man to have her photos she will not let him take her photos. If you think that women don't show photos of their men anybody and hide these photo under mattress you are mistaken. All depends just on some these men and women and nobody can judge them.

Olga
 

[Daveman]

I would ask everyone who knows Olga and I to please try to compromise and give there best to resolve this situation. THE SIGN ON A NOBLE PERSON IS ONE WHO COMPROMISES.
Dave if I was to harsh on you I humbly apologize.

LEGAL

Legal, no apology necessary, but it is graciously accepted.  I can see how I could come across as patronizing... especially in this situation. It wasn't my intention.

This is a rather hot topic for sure, especially at this moment.  I'm not offended at all. 

Dave

[BillyB]

BillyB,
as you have said Kvinna sets the tone at AD. Yes, she does. Two members of RWD are named as morally depraved person, billy-goat, old  impotent, sexual giant and so on and men'  "nicknames" are next to links of their photos.

Olga

 

Yes I just saw that. Wiz and his thread "Dilemma" is now the talk of the town at AD.

They started a poll at AD where over 92% of the women want to list a man on the board of shame if the man offends them.

Everybody knows this is an uphill battle but I hope taking the high road would change a few minds. I think a few women at antidate do "get it" after reading here. Most do not. Dan does need to take into consideration if he'll tolerate the constant quotes taken from RWD and ridiculed at AD as is happening more and more. He also needs to consider if his forum is to be run by people from another forum such as what's happening in Wiz's thread "Dilemma". Since the police action on Wiz isn't working, Wiz is blacklisted.

[I/O]

Have any of you guys considered this?  If you develop this so called "Code of Conduct" which reeks of a "You MUST do" list to me, you will eventually remove the need for RWD altogether? If this article is worthwhile, it would remove the need for any discussion on a given subject.  As we know, that would be ridiculous and as such would be impossible to achieve.  A set of suggested base level ideas which could probably be summarized into 10 bullet points from the FAQ section would be quite sufficient.

Post something like that on the home screen and leave well enough alone.  This to me is trying to reinvent the wheel.  The FAQ section covers most of this anyway and of course should always be subject to updating, but I see this as an exercise in developing a list which will leave anyone not conforming without "Right of appeal" so to say.

I think the effort would be far better directed in regularly updating FAQ type sections as or if new or more relevent information becomes available.

I/O

[Zmejka]

Sorry, guys, simple example: if woman doesn't want a man to have her photos she will not let him take her photos. If you think that women don't show photos of their men anybody and hide these photo under mattress you are mistaken. All depends just on some these men and women and nobody can judge them.

Olga
 

Olga, don't you consider the fact that girls could want to be on the picture with a guy - they just don't want that guy to post them on the internet with detailed story how they pleased each other in bed (the worst scenario). Showing photos to friends, family it's a bit different i think. And why there were no complaints from the part of these women before - it's just they don't know about the destiny of their pictures as most don't have the access to the computer (if they use the agency) or they don't read such forums.

[ScottinCrimea]

My thinking is that there would be less objection if it were called "Guidelines of Conduct" rather than a code of conduct.  It seems most of the complaints are that we would be establishing some set of rules rather than positive suggestions that can be considered or ignored to one's benefit or peril.  I for one would have appreciated a short set of guidelines as to what is considered proper conduct by both Russian women and those with experience in the pursuit.  It would have saved me a lot of headaches and my wife a lot of frustration.

[jb]

All I can say is;  if you think this is a good idea, i.e., imposing a "Code of Conduct" on western men, then you don't know very much about Russians.    I have written reams on the subject over the years, apparently none of it has sunk in.

[Admin]

Yes I just saw that. Wiz and his thread "Dilemma" is now the talk of the town at AD.

They started a poll at AD where over 92% of the women want to list a man on the board of shame if the man offends them.

Everybody knows this is an uphill battle but I hope taking the high road would change a few minds. I think a few women at antidate do "get it" after reading here. Most do not. Dan does need to take into consideration if he'll tolerate the constant quotes taken from RWD and ridiculed at AD as is happening more and more. He also needs to consider if his forum is to be run by people from another forum such as what's happening in Wiz's thread "Dilemma". Since the police action on Wiz isn't working, Wiz is blacklisted.

Good points.

We probably need a topic dedicated exclusively to the Antidate 'issue.'

Here are a few of my thoughts on the subject:

Re: Quotes being taken from RWD and ridiculed elsewhere.

1. At Planet-Love, we have had a very similar problem for nearly a year. There were a group of guys who wanted to discuss 'mongering' and were shut-down at P-L, so they started their own board. The like to come to P-L and grab a snippet or two and go over to their own board and ridicule the post, the author, and anyone else they can associate with the post. It is really very pathetic.

2. Unlike the situation at P-L where that other site is a mere handful of guys and their board is not very active, Antidate appears to have a growing membership and is more vibrant in its outreach.

3. I have examined options to deal with the problem at P-L, and there are a few - but relatively few - and there will be fewer yet with Antidate.

4. By far the most effective has been for the members of P-L to ignore what is written elsewhere. Sadly, many cannot. When they learn that someone has written something about them at that other site, they seem to feel compelled to bring it to P-L and retaliate. As we at P-L have no control over what happens at another site, the inter-board crap just causes a lot of headaches and has no possibility of resolution.

5. Up-thread I have been a proponent of including Kvinna in this initiative - but if she becomes trollish in behavior, then I will respond like I would to any other troll.

Re: wiz and AD's Blacklist.

To some extent, the issue with wiz is the same as the issue with 2tallbill. They both seem to have gotten caught-out through posting photos. It may be that the project we are creating here will help to address such behavior and quite possibly allow us to avert these kinds of problems in the future.

Re: RWD run by people from another forum.

I have never been one to give much consideration to what is stated elsewhere. I have my hands full dealing with issues brought up here. I think, in fact, what we are witnessing is that some of our guys feel maligned by what is occurring elsewhere, and they want something to be done about it from RWD. That is going to be difficult - but to a large extent, initiation of a project such as this one seeks to do just that.

Summary

I know this response will not please everyone - and I am open to suggestions. If they are incendiary, please send them to me via PM.

- Dan

[Chelchov]

Reading all of this thread... 

All I can say is...  

This is a bad idea.  Who gives sh!t about imposing code of conduct on western men like us.  I don't see the point of having all of this so-called cr@p.  If you think it's a good idea, why not put code of conduct on Russian women so it would be fair to western men?  If you are planning to put that on RW, I wish you good luck since it's obvious that you don't understand Russians.  Like Richard, I am tired of having to deal with double standard BS and more punishments imposed on men while women get free pass and leniency.           

If you want to give a guideline for men to prevent them from making mistake due to their ignorance of Russian mentality and culture, it's best to put those info of Russian mentality and culture on FAQ instead of codes of conduct for men.  FAQ can give more answers about Russian mentality and tips for dating them.  It would be nice to expand on the FAQ since it needs to be overhauled with more questions about Russia and dating tips so newbies would be informed.  It would let men to make decision based on reality and facts if it's worth for him to travel to Russia to date/marry a RW.  It's up to them to act on it.  If they refuse to accept the info, it's frigging their problem and they should deserve the tragic. 

[Admin]

All I can say is;  if you think this is a good idea, i.e., imposing a "Code of Conduct" on western men, then you don't know very much about Russians.    I have written reams on the subject over the years, apparently none of it has sunk in.

No-one is "imposing" anything. The objective is merely to codify what some/many/most (?) guys are doing in terms of behaving in a way which is inoffensive.

If you don't feel like it is a good idea - there is no-one who will twist your arm to participate - and certainly no-one who will twist your arm to comply.

I am thinking the reason for the broad range of reactions is that we have not fully-developed and communicated a 'vision' of what to expect in the end-state. It will take some time for this to happen - and until then, we will probably have to deal with the wide range of reactions and responses. Once we have something a bit more tangible in terms of a 'picture' of what this will look like when finished, then we can have a more productive debate about its relative merits.

As I stated up-thread though - this really is a no-risk proposition. If you do not feel it has merit - just ignore the fact the project is going on. Continue participation at RWD as usual and you will probably not even know about this project.

- Dan

[Gator]

Those of you who think this is some sort of police action are missing the point.

[catzenmouse]

Chelchov,

 Way back when the original idea for a code of conduct for men was brought up there was a mirror code of conduct for women brought up as well. These were to be compatible and fair in the expectations and the treatment of the individuals. To get all holier than thou about how men are treated differently will not benefit anyone and only fuels the AD belief system about men.

 Re Wiz and his thread: I find it very interesting that Sophia has been reading RWD for quite some time and never cared one way or the other about her pictures until now. This reversal of attitude says more about the outside influences that prompted her request to remove the pictures and the new practice of trolling here for the meat to feed the feminazi agendas of some.

 This code or guidelines or whatever you want to call it is well worth following through on. There is simply no negative result to be found by taking this on to fruition. In the end if one or two or a dozen men make adjustments to their behavior for the better because of this initiative then it is a success. More information is ALWAYS better than less.

Ken

[Gator]

ScottinCrimea wrote,

My thinking is that there would be less objection if it were called "Guidelines of Conduct" rather than a code of conduct.

This is an example of someone who is critical and yet offers an alternative.  Thank you Scott.

It is easy to say the words, “I don’t like it”. 

It helps the committee to say, “I don’t like it because….”   

And it really helps to say, “I don’t like it because….and instead I suggest you do ….”

Please be assured that we are interested in all comments and will consider them fully.

[Gator]

After this project was announced yesterday, there have been only three new entries in the adjunct thread for posting ideas on how this should be implemented.  Thank you WmGO, KenC and Kuna.  And thanks to everyone who posted something there  last year.

Again, if you have some ideas, here is where to post them so they do not get lost. 

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=2110.msg79172#new

[Gator]

Kuna made an excellent point to me in a PM, suggesting that the RW be involved.   This guideline is designed to respect RW, so it would be interesting if each man would ask his RW (wife, fiancée, girlfriend, or penpal) whether she has ever felt disrespected by Western men, and if so how.     

[Kuna]

This is a bad idea.  Who gives sh!t about imposing code of conduct on western men like us.  I don't see the point of having all of this so-called cr@p.  

You're entitled to think it's a bad idea.  I though do give a sh!t about introducing guidelines about acceptable conduct.  Why? Because in my very limited experience I saw several men that should make us feel ashamed.  The way that we are represented in FSU by some men is a disgrace.

Now, of course the guidelines will have no impact on the hardcore mongrels but maybe... just maybe, others travelling might read the guidelines and think differently than they would if they just read the opinions of some men that we sometimes criticise (Those men maybe posting in other areas by the way... What's wrong with talking about what is acceptable behaviour?)

If you think it's a good idea, why not put code of conduct on Russian women so it would be fair to western men?  If you are planning to put that on RW, I wish you good luck since it's obvious that you don't understand Russians.  

We've got the 10 Commandments to guide men on how to avoid scammers and pro-daters. We don't have a large community of women looking to marry so introducing a code for women would be a bit stupid wouldn't it?

Oh, and I may not understand Russians but from what I saw in Ukraine I do understand some of the western men that travel "looking for wives".  Some are there to see how far their money will stretch in this "Mail Order Bride" business.  Some wouldn't blink an eye to lie to a girl they've been writing to just to get their rocks off.  Some might just naively (instead of intentionally) post pictures of their FSU dates on Internet forums.

Let's give them a "heads-up".

Like Richard, I am tired of having to deal with double standard BS and more punishments imposed on men while women get free pass and leniency.           

There's no punishment in this Chelchov...  What I see it as is men with good intentions giving their opinion on what is acceptable behaviour when others travel to FSU seeking marriage.

It's got nothing to do with women getting a free pass... It's about us as a community trying to improve the standards within our community.

If you want to give a guideline for men to prevent them from making mistake due to their ignorance of Russian mentality and culture, it's best to put those info of Russian mentality and culture on FAQ instead of codes of conduct for men.  FAQ can give more answers about Russian mentality and tips for dating them.  It would be nice to expand on the FAQ since it needs to be overhauled with more questions about Russia and dating tips so newbies would be informed.  

It doesn't matter which medium is used to house or distribute the information... It could be the stored in the FAQ section... It could be a downloadable pdf that people could print and take with them or could be on it's own page...  Does it matter where the Guidelines are held?

By the way... I agree that the FAQ needs a freshen up but I'd imagine it's a big task to fish through the threads to find the gems...

It would let men to make decision based on reality and facts if it's worth for him to travel to Russia to date/marry a RW.  It's up to them to act on it.  If they refuse to accept the info, it's frigging their problem and they should deserve the tragic.  

Dude,  I don't think the Guidelines are about helping men avoid "the tragic".  I think it's about agreeing on standards of behaviour that are accepted as being reasonable in our community.



Here's a thought for the critics...

Most of us met our partners through Internet dating sites and very few of us would be the first men our wives/fiances/girlfriends met.  

HOW DO YOU HOPE YOUR PARTNER WAS TREATED BY WESTERN MEN BEFORE YOU MET HER?

If you can answer that question you've got some value to add to these guidelines.  

I just don't understand why some men don't want to publish standards of acceptable behaviour when those standards are meant to help women that are just like those that we love!

I'm all for it even if it only help a few women...

Kuna