Krakow & Lviv tour

[Blighty]

 

I have no idea how the Brits have this, but $17000 yearly income, that would fall under the "benchmark" minimum wage (~$20k) and almost on verge of poverty and be more or less non taxable.

The £18,600 threshold for a spouse visa was set in 2012 as "the level at which a specific type of family – a single-earner household with no children paying £100 per week in rent – is no longer eligible for tax credits or housing benefit.” I know that he will argue about that £100 per week in rent, but the cost of living has risen over the last 6 years. About 40% of the population do not earn enough money to bring in a spouse from outside the EU.

[Blighty]

Like in Sweden we have a free NHS (Health Service), ...

Are you aware that you need to pay for UK healthcare as part of your immigration application? The current cost for the first 2.5 years is £500 but will increase to £1,000 this year. The same amount (and probably higher) needs to be paid for the final 2.5 years.

They charge in euros at a very poor rate - I had to pay €714 for my wife. That is about £600!

[Nightwish]

Exactly, the situation is similar in the UK but with a little less welfare in some places, i.e they will not pay as much in welfare support under the different categories, only 6 months paid maternity leave if the girl was working prior for so long, etc

Yes my wage is more or less non-taxable, I will be adding to this more income that is non-taxable along the way once I get sorted out, and that is happening at the moment. I disagree that this would afford a life of poverty - how much does food really cost, a bit of clothes buying here & there? etc.

Like in Sweden we have a free NHS (Health Service), subsidised dentistry, free education, etc so you don't need a lot of income to live well.

Bullcrap, Trench you are about to go on an adventure to support not just yourself and your needs, but another person as well, for at least 1,5-3 years.

A woman that comes to you with only the clothes she can carry and nothing, I mean NOTHING else more or less.. just to have her live the same life as in Ukraine, with ALL her support and networks she has there you will have to make the double to what you make now.
She will rely on you for everything, do you have ANY idea how much makeup is, how much hair care products cost, how much she needs for personal hygien e.t.c .. e.t.c...
I can bet a years salary that you have no freaking idea.

Just as a couple of examples, lets say she comes there and she really wants her own laptop to be able to keep in contact with her family and friends, that's about £4-500 for a descent one, that's HALF your monthly income.. and she needs a new phone, again half your monthly income... she wants to visit home 2-3 times a year (I mean you only live a few hours away) for holidays and birthdays, how will you save up to afford this with a steady stream of expenses to keep you two having a descent living.
Take your monthly expenses, then double that - and now double that again - that's is about what she will cost in just "running expenses"..


You say you will give her a better (financial) life, maybe, and marginally, but her life will be very poor in all other aspects since you wont be able to afford anything else, no vacations, no weekend getaways, no surprise gifts, no flowers on a rainy Tuesday just because you found her so extremely beautiful that morning.

so you are in fact condemning a girl to a very poor life, and forget about kids, you wont even be able to keep a cat.

[Trenchcoat]

The £18,600 threshold for a spouse visa was set in 2012 as "the level at which a specific type of family – a single-earner household with no children paying £100 per week in rent – is no longer eligible for tax credits or housing benefit.” I know that he will argue about that £100 per week in rent, but the cost of living has risen over the last 6 years. About 40% of the population do not earn enough money to bring in a spouse from outside the EU.

You may well be right on this figure Blighty, lol. I've discussed on here before how few people actually earn the 'average wage' because the figures are skewed by those few earning vast sums of money making the average wage not the reality for Mr & Mrs Joe Average.

People don't understand (particularly those outside the UK unlike us ) how little money the majority of people earn. Even FSW I message online; one had looked at job advertisements and thought how much money we can get in the UK. She had fsiled to understand that you don't just walk into those high paid jobs, UK employers want a lot of skills and heavy experience in return heavily evidenced on the CV and at interview, that there are vast numbers of people after such top jobs, that even vaster numbers stand no chance of even getting a look in - don't have anywhere near the skills or experience or contacts, etc.

So for people to think I'm lazy is not the case, its actually the norm, I can though increase my earnings to easily get above the 18.6k and will do at the appropriate time. I see no reason though in the short term to mess my plans up for better financial independance by working for what would amount to as little extra after tax.

[Trenchcoat]

Bullcrap, Trench you are about to go on an adventure to support not just yourself and your needs, but another person as well, for at least 1,5-3 years.

A woman that comes to you with only the clothes she can carry and nothing, I mean NOTHING else more or less.. just to have her live the same life as in Ukraine, with ALL her support and networks she has there you will have to make the double to what you make now.
She will rely on you for everything, do you have ANY idea how much makeup is, how much hair care products cost, how much she needs for personal hygien e.t.c .. e.t.c...
I can bet a years salary that you have no freaking idea.

Just as a couple of examples, lets say she comes there and she really wants her own laptop to be able to keep in contact with her family and friends, that's about £4-500 for a descent one, that's HALF your monthly income.. and she needs a new phone, again half your monthly income... she wants to visit home 2-3 times a year (I mean you only live a few hours away) for holidays and birthdays, how will you save up to afford this with a steady stream of expenses to keep you two having a descent living.
Take your monthly expenses, then double that - and now double that again - that's is about what she will cost in just "running expenses"..


You say you will give her a better (financial) life, maybe, and marginally, but her life will be very poor in all other aspects since you wont be able to afford anything else, no vacations, no weekend getaways, no surprise gifts, no flowers on a rainy Tuesday just because you found her so extremely beautiful that morning.

so you are in fact condemning a girl to a very poor life, and forget about kids, you wont even be able to keep a cat.

Not true, stuf like laptops & mobile phones are usually one off expenses, if she has a dual sim phone that a lot of Ukrainains do then she just needs a UK SIM. Point being is that I have savings and once she's set up she should be fine.

Stuff like make up, yes I know it is shockingly expensive even for something simple such as lipstick, I found that out with the last girl I was with. I will just have to ride it out on that one. There will be no problem supporting kids on the money I get, I know things can add up a bit but there are always ways. For instance if I was at a push I have both a good laptop and a good tablet, she could take either, for baby gear there are relatives to source for gear or stuff on gum tree, etc. If push really came to shove you just have to be a bit imaginative but I doubt it would ever come to that.

[Nightwish]

Not true, stuf like laptops & mobile phones are usually one off expenses, if she has a dual sim phone that a lot of Ukrainains do then she just needs a UK SIM. Point being is that I have savings and once she's set up she should be fine.

Stuff like make up, yes I know it is shockingly expensive even for something simple such as lipstick, I found that out with the last girl I was with. I will just have to ride it out on that one. There will be no problem supporting kids on the money I get, I know things can add up a bit but there are always ways. For instance if I was at a push I have both a good laptop and a good tablet, she could take either, for baby gear there are relatives to source for gear or stuff on gum tree, etc. If push really came to shove you just have to be a bit imaginative but I doubt it would ever come to that.

Yes I know you are cheap, but that is also because you already are poor by any standards.

Used things, second hand clothes, second hand baby items.. yes of course you can live on a "dime" that is not the issue, but you said you would give her a better life.. and what you describe is the life she already have, with the comfort of family and friends and her culture,her language... you don't give her anything more.

Let me ask you this instead.
You say you can support a wife on your current income, but that would be a "turn every penny" life more or less.

Would you not want to give your beloved wife more what she WANTS and not only what she NEEDS.

scratch that, I already know the answer, no you don't...
you want this helpless, sex-slave, grateful, mindless woman who will adore every step you take for rescuing her from that piss poor shithole of a country she was living in.

[JayH]

Take your monthly expenses, then double that - and now double that again - that's is about what she will cost in just "running expenses"..

It is a  little like your bed--   once you are sharing you have to learn to sleep in your   1/4 of the bed !!     And  a very small percentage of your   $ living budget!!!

[krimster2]

it's not enough Trench....
too much of a struggle will put "pressure" on a marriage
I don't see how you can even take trips to Ukraine on that kind of income
let alone try and raise a family
if you bring a woman over it will be years before she could get a job and contribute financially
so she will be a financial liability at first
if one person is struggling living on your income
how about two?

better choice - go local, someone who has a job who can help out
two people can live more cheaply together than separately
live and date within your means

[ML]

Like in Sweden we have a free NHS (Health Service), subsidised dentistry, free education, etc so you don't need a lot of income to live well.

NO YOU DO NOT HAVE FREE ANYTHING IN UK OR ANYWHERE ELSE.

Free would only be possible if the doctors, dentists, professors, etc. were paid nothing.

[Davo2]

"Used things, second hand clothes, second hand baby items.. yes of course you can live on a "dime" that is not the issue, but you said you would give her a better life"

My personal experience with our first child and a first time mother was an eye opener. My ex has older sisters who gave us used clothes , but there was no way she was going to dress our daughter in second had clothes. By our second and third, it wasn't an issue, but defiantly not our first child. She required the best of everything. Your wife will need a new wardrobe of  maternity clothes, that needs upgrading as she grows. Just like clothes your first child will need a collection of new toys, books etc...  that will continuously need to be
added to as it's skills develop. 

Just the cost of nappies (diapers), wipes and nappie rash cream would have easily been over $1500 pounds. The first few years of your first child's life  could cost half your current annual income, but it gets cheaper when the next comes, as you are already set up.

There are so many things as a first time father, I had no idea we needed and a lot of things need to be bought new for sanitary reasons.

[BillyB]

I thought I read an older post of yours a while ago but couldn't remember, are you in Seattle?

Did the city council tax on employees affect you much? I thought I saw a lot of folks in the construction field protesting the decision at the time. Funny Story, I actually had 2 Interviews with Amazon's core network team out there about a month ago.

Ended up taking a new job in Charlotte rather than moving forward to the next round of interviews. Mostly due to the lower cost of living, friends and family living out that way, and guarantee I had this job lol. Hopefully it will end up the better move than the prestige working for Amazon would have afforded. 

I live in a suburb of Seattle so city council tax wouldn't affect me. The city of Seattle Council first wanted a $500 head tax on companies makes a certain amount. That would punish large companies such as Amazon and Microsoft and encourage those companies to operate outside of Seattle. Then the council decided to approve a smaller head tax. Then they had a meeting and repealed the head tax.

Seattle is also the first major city to increase minimum wage to $15 an hour. Cost of living went up. No more dollar menus in fast food restaurants since they are charging customers 50% more.

I make enough money to live a very comfortable life (am not going to throw numbers out here), but this being a socialist nation I take home less then half of my salary, the rest our government seems to think they deserve more then me. :p

You give the government more than half your salary but they give you a few "freebies" back. I would love all Americans to have free health care but I know that means it's going to cost a whole lot more.

[krimster2]

" I would love all Americans to have free health care but I know that means it's going to cost a whole lot more."

somehow the UK figured out how to give universal coverage to EVERYONE in the UK
with no deductible
with no co-pay
and at a cost per person of half what it is in the USA
and they figured out how to do this 80 yr ago

I have relatives living in the UK
their NHS payments are MUCH less than my insurance payments
and they get a WHOLE LOT more
Trump has done everything he can to gut the ACA "Obamacare"
so we may go back to an uninsured rate of 25% again

seriously, every time you look at what this country does
and then compare it to Europe
you can't help but think
we're a bunch of dumb asses worrying about non-existent Obamacare death panels
instead of feeling concern for people who don't even have access to health care
that's the real death panel
but since a lot of these people are poor and brown
trump voters don't give a damn

[LAman]

@LAman I was getting TC to think realistically about how his income is inadequate for this venture. In comparison, I was earning more than £13,000 in 1984. I agree with Boethius that UW are not looking for a poverty lifestyle when moving to a new country!

I was just speaking generally, not just you. Up a couple posts not sure Boe was speaking toward me, she used the word 'success', which to me should not be used here. When dealing with 2 different individuals, different minds, different cultures (usually in RWD), thoughts, emotions, feelings, love, even infatuation...… at what point does 'success' come into play. In a relationship it takes 2 individuals with different minds trying to work together and very easy for one or the other to want a change. Does that mean you 'failed' if your partner bails on the relationship?
 How does 'money' determine love? Do you love more when the other person has 'enough' money? I've seen plenty of people struggle( financially) to make relationship work. Yes, it could be a major reason for ending a relationship but to tell someone else, you will not find love because you don't make enough money?

[Trenchcoat]

it's not enough Trench....
too much of a struggle will put "pressure" on a marriage
I don't see how you can even take trips to Ukraine on that kind of income
let alone try and raise a family
if you bring a woman over it will be years before she could get a job and contribute financially
so she will be a financial liability at first
if one person is struggling living on your income
how about two?

better choice - go local, someone who has a job who can help out
two people can live more cheaply together than separately
live and date within your means

Ok, I've just done the maths, I get 13k before tax and 12k after tax.

That gives me 1K a month clear to live on.


Costs

£150 a month can be set aside for council tax & electric & heating.

£10 for water & sewage on average a month, so for a couple say £20 a month.

About £75 a week for food & drink, so £300 a month - so for a couple can double that to £600

Car running costs about £100 a month.

So as a single person you can say my costs are £560, for a couple they would be £870.

No rent or mortgage costs.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So I bring home an excess of roughly £440 a month as a single person and £130 as a couple without the woman working.

In addition I have savings to fall back on to cover any one off costs.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Like I say I can bring in more money in future if needed but I think this demonstrates that it is perfectly do-able on my earnings without cutting things to the bone.
 

Stuff like NHS, education, state pension, etc are free (ok paid for through tax) and stuff like dentistry cheap enough as its subsidised.

If there were children you could add a little to this so the £130 would be squeezed a little but most of the one off costs could be met through savings. Plus of course there are benefits in the UK for those on low earnings with children but by then I should be able to bring in money so wont be needed. So these figures show that it can be done and provide a decent lifestlye

[Bee Farmer]

Just remember guys, you live in America, Trench doesn't.

What does that have to do with the price of rice in China?  It doesn't.

Or are you suggesting that a woman can move to a different country seeking a better life, but Trench can't go somewhere else to earn more?

Ivan talked of being in Texas, but moving to Charlotte, North Carolina for a better job.  In comparison with Europe, that would be like moving to another country.

I just glances at the help wanted ads in London on Indeed.co.uk http://www.indeed.co.uk/Help-Wanted-jobs-in-London
The lowest category of jobs they list is 15,000+ pounds.

In America, we would say that Trench is trying to play the system.

This is a very good example of people looooooving to talk about themselves!!!


And better at putting somebody down...…….

I disagree LAman.  This is people saying, "I made something of myself, and this is how I did it.  Why can't you do it too?"

By Ukrainain standards what I am offering is quite a comfortable lifestyle

 

You are delusional.  It is a comfortable lifestyle for Ukrainian street urchins.

Trench, if you want a Ukrainian wife, my advice is this.  Increase your income to the point that you can afford to give the girl 1,000 pounds cash every month as an allowance for at least the first 2-3 years.  Tell her that you will pay the bills, provide food, and the necessities of life, and she has 1,000 pounds allowance a month to buy clothes, a new phone, send money to home, pay for her trips back home, etc.  I believe this will give her the middle class lifestyle she is likely expecting.  It's going to take 2 years for her to be able to get the language skills to get even a basic job.  This will give her reasonable expectations of the kind of life you can offer.  It may not be a life of luxury, but it is an improvement.

So roughly the first roughly 12k is tax free, hence why I'm happy earning 13k

In American terms, what you are doing is playing the system, but you don't know how to play the game and you are failing miserably.

Let me tell you some secrets.  The welfare trash who play the system figure out a way to earn money under the table, tax free.
They mow lawns for cash money, and don't declare it as income.
Some deal illegal drugs.
Some pick up aluminum cans to sell for recycling, or haul away scrap metal for people.
Farmers markets are another cash business.  You can make $40,000-$50,000 USD from an acre of blackberries, selling them at farmers markets.
With 75-100 beehives, if you know what you are doing you can make $40,000-$50,000 a year cash money.
A produce farmers told me that if he only had to grow one crop, he would grow asparagus.  You only work 3 weeks a year and make serious money.  That produce farmer and his wife usually sell $1500 a week at the farmers market, and they also have wholesale accounts to stores.
I know guys who mow lawns and plow snow in the winter who make over $50,000 cash a year, and pay no taxes.
I know a commercial beekeeper who has family work for him, cash under the table, he only sells his honey for cash, (usually wholesale or bulk - I know of cash sales he has made of $50K) and he declares virtually nothing on his taxes.  Between him and his wife, they have about 8 kids, and he gets welfare benefits for the kids because they are low income.  He clears a couple hundred thousand dollars a year after expenses.  Him and his wife have a brand new truck and SUV. His house and business property is in his parent's name. 

A Ukrainian woman will probably admire you if you have side income that you don't pay tax on.  She will think you are an ignorant fool if you refuse to earn money if you have to pay tax on it.

I am trying to move up in life but its not easy when nearly everyone else is trying to do the same also. Plus I am doing it single handed by not being in a couple, that is the problem of a lot of UK women they want the finished product there already baked not realising that a guy is on the same money they are on these day, that it often takes two to accomplish much at all.

You're making excuses for your laziness.
If you don't want to do something, you will find excuses why you can't do it.
If you want to make it happen, you'll find a way.
I used to do a bunch of eBaying on the side, and was clearing $8,000-$10,000 a year, tax-free.

Does that mean you 'failed' if your partner bails on the relationship?

Yes.

How does 'money' determine love? Do you love more when the other person has 'enough' money? I've seen plenty of people struggle( financially) to make relationship work. Yes, it could be a major reason for ending a relationship but to tell someone else, you will not find love because you don't make enough money?

Men typically choose mates equal or lower in socio-economic status. Women typically choose mates equal or higher in socio-economic status, and 4-5 years older.
When you tell a guy that he can not find love because he does not make enough money, it means that there are either no women equal or lower than him in socio-economic status, or else the cost of entry is too high for him to play the game. 
In Trench's case, he does not have the money to be able to afford the cost of importing a foreign bride, and even if he could, all he can offer is a life of poverty, and no woman is going to leave a life of poverty in Ukraine with all her family and friends to go to a life of poverty in the UK with no family, friends, a different language, with a man who just wants a sex-slave who will be barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen.

Just out of curiosity Trench, what was the income level of your father?  Were you raised on welfare?

I just had a scary thought.  Trench, do you still live with your parents?  Are you in one of those situations where your parents put their house in your name, and you have to take care of them until they die?  The 40 year old boy who won't grow up, living in the basement playing video games all the time, earning minimum wage, and dreams of a supermodel who will fall in love with him...

[Trenchcoat]

Beefarmer, it has a lot to do with the price of rice in China

The thing you are missing here is that the UK & the US are geared very differently. The UK provides a lot of the basics free (paid through taxation) the US  does not. What you get in the US instead is the ability to earn higher earnings, i.e with which you get to pay for the stuff you would get by default in the UK.

In the UK for example a field will no doubt cost you more than in the US. The money you get from your crop will be less, you will have to compete with foreign competition and be squeezed by the big supermarkets on price. If your crop fails/dies you could be in a bad situation. In any case you would have to pay for replanting next year, machinery, etc. Believe me there are no easy answers here, if there were we would all be at it and that is probably likely to ruin the easy answer, lol.

No I do not live with my parents. Not that many houses have basements here. Some do bit I think the child living in basement is more a US phenomena. More people are living with theor parents as cost of housing is getting so high in some parts of the UK. So here even owning your own house is becoming a big deal.

[Boethius]

I was just speaking generally, not just you. Up a couple posts not sure Boe was speaking toward me, she used the word 'success', which to me should not be used here. When dealing with 2 different individuals, different minds, different cultures (usually in RWD), thoughts, emotions, feelings, love, even infatuation...… at what point does 'success' come into play. In a relationship it takes 2 individuals with different minds trying to work together and very easy for one or the other to want a change. Does that mean you 'failed' if your partner bails on the relationship?
 How does 'money' determine love? Do you love more when the other person has 'enough' money? I've seen plenty of people struggle( financially) to make relationship work. Yes, it could be a major reason for ending a relationship but to tell someone else, you will not find love because you don't make enough money?

Money doesn't determine love.  However, we're not speaking of kids just beginning life together here. 

Love takes time to grow.  It needs living together, knowing the rhythms of each others' lives, the positives and negatives of your beloved.  If financial stress exists from Day 1, I personally believe the chance of success is minimal.  Furthermore, UW who contemplate marrying foreigners are invariably looking for an upgrade in their lifestyle.  That is just reality.  They'd marry a local man if they wanted to continue to struggle.

[mhr7]

I am trying to move up in life but its not easy when nearly everyone else is trying to do the same also. Plus I am doing it single handed by not being in a couple, that is the problem of a lot of UK women they want the finished product there already baked not realising that a guy is on the same money they are on these day, that it often takes two to accomplish much at all. I don't know what you mean in trying to search for a wife in the laziest way possible? I'm trying to search for a wife in a way that is most efficient and hopefully will bring up what I want. If one strategy fails as it has done here then I learn from it and try and improve on it from what I learnt for next time.

By laziness I mean you're not doing the work it takes to land an FSUW. You always have excuses (see above), rationalizations and justifications. If you want something bad enough you don't give excuses or blame others, you just do it. You want a woman to leave her friends, family, and culture. You better be offering her the best you possibly can. You don't make enough to bring a woman into the country, start with that.

[krimster2]

there are a number of different categories of "personal features" that determine success
that when combined together produce a go/no go effect
like appearance, personality, wealth, age, etc.
a shortage in one feature can be offset by an abundance of another
as long as it totals up
but if you don't have any money you better be damned good looking

you're not the first person whose reach exceeded his grasp
come back to earth now trench
and look around you more
try different things, dating apps, etc.
just try more

[Trenchcoat]

Well, I think the wealth side of things will come along.

Meanwhile, a couple of the women I have recently been messaging seem to think there is a some way around getting a tourist visa; that their friends who are single have managed it or there is some Facebook group of Ukrainians that can assist you or whatever. They just don't seem to accept that it's highly unlikely if not impossible. To me I wonder if the are all talking BS and making out they have friends that have managed it. I seem to get the impression that they think there must be somehow around it. That if they talk of friends getting one then they will also. It's most peculiar.

[krimster2]

you NEVER want the woman to come to you
besides, who will pay for her ticket her meals, her ... ???
ohhhh she will.....

dream on Trench...

[krimster2]

BTW, Amsterdam is now full of young Ukrainian women on the prowl
if they're buying their own ticket
they'll go to EU and not UK they can get a visa now!!
ya shouldn't have  Brexited
you cut off your supply of Ukrainian women
oops

trench buddy
some things just aren't meant to be
isn't there the female equivalent of you around there


if the odds are 100-to-1 of you finding a suitable partner where you live
then all you have to do is try to look 100 times
persistence is omnipotent

[Trenchcoat]

you NEVER want the woman to come to you
besides, who will pay for her ticket her meals, her ... ???
ohhhh she will.....

dream on Trench...

Yeah, well that was the issue with the last girl from last year that after just two separate weeks together neither of which was in her home town she was demanding that I get her a tourist visa so she can come see me in the UK. Supposedly so she could see where I live, see that I was not married & meet my siblings, etc. Of course I would have to stump up the cost of this from visa cost to flight costs, etc. For that early on in a relationship and with little chance of her getting a visa it seemed a ridiculous idea at that stage. She would not accept it though.

Well one of these girls I am currently communicatino with apparently wanted to visit her other half as they had been in a three year relationship together  Fair enough, well apparently he could not arrange it so they split up. I have still not heard why this exactly came about it sounds strange so I am fishing around some more. It looks like on the surface she may be open to a meet up on her home town I will press more on this in further correspondence. So we will see, she lives in another industrial dumpsk in Ukraine. I know what the score can be here from before so this should be interesting. Still seems interesting to me why so many seem to have the notion that they are all likely to get visas if they have a sponsoring party. I tell them it doesn't matter how rich the sponsoring guy is, they look at the girl's situation and whether she has 'proof' that she will return, otherwise girl can just leave it the moment she gets through customs, lol.

[Trenchcoat]

BTW, Amsterdam is now full of young Ukrainian women on the prowl
if they're buying their own ticket
they'll go to EU and not UK they can get a visa now!!
ya shouldn't have  Brexited
you cut off your supply of Ukrainian women
oops

Not the case, even without Brexit they would not have got into the UK. Both the UK & the Rep of Ireland are non-shengen. Hence they were never included in the EU/Ukrainian visa agreement just Schengen EU countries.

Belive me even with the issues the Ukraine still has way more go in it than the UK dating market.

A lot of the reason we left the EU was because if this tupe of carry on by the EU, them making irresponsible policies. These women will no doubt get wit a guy there, hence get full EU citizenship then they can go straight to live & work in UK as a EU citizen. This could be happening in many a city across the EU. Some will genuinely like the guy many will most likely be unwittingly immigration mules.

[Trenchcoat]

In fact Krimster you may have strayed across how they are getting in since we have not left the EU yet. Meanwhile their compatriots back in Ukraine who are not quite as sharp on the draw are wondering how they managed it, lol.