Why was MH 17 on that course ?

[GQBlues]

Yeah, I made the same point in another thread but apparently there are apples and oranges at play within the political spectrum

Political is right. Apparently the prez did not even get congressional approval so he doesn't have to burden the democrats of a possible backlash since it is election year this year. So they're scrambling from GWB's previous congressional approval to adopt for this latest act of *generous attitude*. I am starting to really feel sorry for this excuse of a president. Even an imposter would've done a better job than this guy.

At least he didn't bite into the Clinton apple and got us into a deeper mess in Ukraine.

[GQBlues]

Hmm,  so Russian troops in Russia is the reason for the sanctions?    If we have, say, American troops in America, will EU sanction us?

😝

TFF! What's wrong with having Russian troops in Russia? Is that a booboo too?

But it does amaze me how our own BillyB apparently have executive privilege to know what our top brass is sharing with other leaders that they're not sharing with mortars like us. LMAO!

This conflict is being made comical by our pack of chihuahuas.

[Belvis]

  The expert consensus is the plane was brought down by shrapnel from a surface to air missile.  Given the fact Ukrainians had no BUK missiles in the area

If evidences do not comply with "facts" they should be ignored, right? )
Ukrainian news channel about Ukrainian army in the area, 12 days before the tragedy.
Watch 0:55 :

[Anotherkiwi]

If evidences do not comply with "facts" they should be ignored, right? )
Ukrainian news channel about Ukrainian army in the area, 12 days before the tragedy.
Watch 0:55 :

Belvis, what does that prove?  That there was a BUK missile system, POSSIBLY Ukrainian, somewhere that could be filmed about 12 days before MH17 was shot down?  That video could have been filmed years ago for all we know.  That's the sort of "evidence" that GQBlues is always dismissing and, in this case, I would agree with him.

[sleepycat]

internet gleaned "knowledge" of issues

Is that the same meaning as 'Google king'?

[LiveFromUkraine]

Is that the same meaning as 'Google king'?

I believe Jay is referring to his love of Yahoo news.

[fathertime]

in my view he would not of been able to if ukraines supporters had of been willing to call his bluff and match or up the ratcheting in line with him , however they where not prepared to do so ,

Putin's 'BLUFF'...Nothing makes me think what he is doing is a bluff.  Calling a bluff would be a good move, but calling a non bluff makes a small loss a very big one.  In this case, I don't think he is/was bluffing...and by their lack of action it appears the US/Ukraine concur.


Fathertime! 

[Boethius]

LMAO! When are you cashing out the $30 mil is all I want to know...😝

No matter how many times you repeat this, it won't change the fact that, the way the "offer" is structured, no one will be able to claim that money.  You couldn't answer the same questions with an actual video from Iraq, with voices of the perpetrators, and where much more of that information is theoretically available. 

[GQBlues]

No matter how many times you repeat this, it won't change the fact that, the way the "offer" is structured, no one will be able to claim that money.  You couldn't answer the same questions with an actual video from Iraq, with voices of the perpetrators, and where much more of that information is theoretically available.

...and no matter how much you speculate on what happened and who downed MH17, or who you want to add and post to the silly parade of speculative garbage as *evidence*, social media posting, the ability to discern truth from youtube video of people you don't know (that one was really funny, counselor), photo-shopped pictures, biased editorials/articles, rationalwiki page, ukraineinvestigation, (oh wait that's BillyB's favorite site that explains everything), etcetera, etcetera...is all simply that - garbage.

Besides, they're asking for the identity of those responsible for the downing of MH17. Just like what I gave you with your silly exercise.

$ 30 mil Boethius, I'm rooting for you....you get the dough, maybe you can even invest in a nice shoreline property on sunny Crimea next to me and Wayne.

 

[Belvis]

Belvis, what does that prove?  That there was a BUK missile system, POSSIBLY Ukrainian, somewhere that could be filmed about 12 days before MH17 was shot down?  That video could have been filmed years ago for all we know.  That's the sort of "evidence" that GQBlues is always dismissing and, in this case, I would agree with him.

I have pointed that Ukrainian BUKs were deployed in the conflict zone, in response to Boethius's claim. I suspect USA spy satellites could give more technical info about where BUKs were located. At least US official told they watch the region so I hope US will contribute more valuable data for the investigation.

[Boethius]

Belvis, what does that prove?  That there was a BUK missile system, POSSIBLY Ukrainian, somewhere that could be filmed about 12 days before MH17 was shot down?  That video could have been filmed years ago for all we know.  That's the sort of "evidence" that GQBlues is always dismissing and, in this case, I would agree with him.

In addition, terrorists have claimed they seized several BUK systems from Ukrainian bases, but none were operational.

A terrorist leader claimed Russia had given the terrorists a BUK (told to Reuters), then recanted that, claiming he'd been misquoted.  The Guardian had reporters on the ground who spoke to locals in Torez, near where MH17 was brought down, and they claimed to have seen the terrorists driving through the region with a missile system similar to a BUK hours before MH17 was brought down.


Belvis, there was no need for Ukraine to have surface to air missiles, as the terrorists don't fly planes.  Further, Ukraine's BUK systems were at least a decade old, and not operational.  I don't know about now.  Nevertheless, by all means, release enough information so that the location of the missile is determined.  It will indicate whether or not it was shot from terrorist controlled territory.

[Brasscasing]

Well it's good you heeded Boethius' plea to post here, Brass. LOL. She's been much too challenged with all these propaganda on all sides flying about. I had to tell her a few things she never even knew about the conflict and about Ukraine.

My goodness that's impressive, Bodine. What forum was that on because from what I've been reading over the last several months she's been schooling you on this one.

 

Anyway...on to your response...

My post quoted KyivPost's bulletin, not Russian media.  So, I'm not quite sure what your point was about Russia's disinformation. Mind explaining that?

Just so you know now, I don't read or listen to anything Russia produces as *news*. I've no interest in Russian media. However, since you already provided an excerpt to this specific event, the site you provided, which you inadvertently labeled 'disinformation', was actually far more *complete* in its report than the bulletin from KyivPost. It actually specified the altitude for the flight ban, which was 25,900' or less. MH17 was on a cruising altitude of IIRC, 32,000' +/-.

Boe's already answered to this up thread.

I'll add I've been around these forums long enough to know your 'debating style', Bodine. I won't get into arguments with you trying to correct your deliberate misinterpretations of what I'm posting. It's a waste of my time.

 

Which still gives merit to Doll's line of questioning - why didn't they close flights altogether if they saw fit to close all of them travelling at a certain altitude? Specially since they kept saying Russia was equipping the rebels with military equipment capable of downing not only SU-25, but high flying military cargo planes (which they've already downed) capable of flight in that height?

It's all out there you just have to look it up.

Oh and btw Brass...if you have evidence you'd like to share regarding the downing of MH17, allow me to suggest you either first contact WIFKA and claim the $30 mil, or be prepared to split the pot with the rest of the chihuahuas here as they've been displaying all sorts of evidence for months now. LMAO.

 Contact information provided for upthread, or ask Boethius. It became obvious she doesn't really know who downed MH17 either.

Again you assume to know more than you actually do. What makes you think I haven't already collected?

WOW! really?

But what does this have to do with the discussion topic exactly?

Linked for your reading pleasure.

Brass

[GQBlues]

My goodness that's impressive, Bodine. What forum was that on because from what I've been reading over the last several months she's been schooling you on this one. ..

Then obviously you either have serious reading comprehension issues or a mild case of senility? Speaking of the latter, the place can be a rockin' Moose Lodge Club now and then. You should feel right at home.
 

...Boe's already answered to this up thread....

I know. Matter of fact after she tried to convince anyone that you were a man of your post, she then immediately spoke for you. That was pretty hysterical!

...I'll add I've been around these forums long enough to know your 'debating style', Bodine. I won't get into arguments with you trying to correct your deliberate misinterpretations of what I'm posting. It's a waste of my time...

Well now, that's just too bad, isn't it? Isn't that why you were sent here in the first place? All dressed up but nowhere to go?

Or maybe just a simple case of having to choose between moderating/posting in a forum whose owner, and one main prolific poster, have opinions counter to yours about this silly conflict and the thought of running with a pack of chihuahuas in another forum is proving much too tempting to refuse. No?

Seriously. One forum isn't enough? Heck, posting on weekdays in one forum is way too much for me. I can't understand how you folk actually can do on multiple forums AND even all through the weekends.

...It's all out there you just have to look it up....

Oh I do. It's not that hard to sift through garbage just like how I did with yours.

...Again you assume to know more than you actually do. What makes you think I haven't already collected?

Easy. It's you. Assumptions have never been necessary.

...Linked for your reading pleasure....

Ahhh! Useless garbage then...still nothing useful to post all these times eh Brass?

 

[Brasscasing]

Then obviously you either have serious reading comprehension issues or a mild case of senility? Speaking of the latter, the place can be a rockin' Moose Lodge Club now and then. You should feel right at home.
 
I know. Matter of fact after she tried to convince anyone that you were a man of your post, she then immediately spoke for you. That was pretty hysterical!

Well now, that's just too bad, isn't it? Isn't that why you were sent here in the first place? All dressed up but nowhere to go?

Or maybe just a simple case of having to choose between moderating/posting in a forum whose owner, and one main prolific poster, have opinions counter to yours about this silly conflict and the thought of running with a pack of chihuahuas in another forum is proving much too tempting to refuse. No?

Seriously. One forum isn't enough? Heck, posting on weekdays in one forum is way too much for me. I can't understand how you folk actually can do on multiple forums AND even all through the weekends.

Oh I do. It's not that hard to sift through garbage just like how I did with yours.

Easy. It's you. Assumptions have never been necessary.

Ahhh! Useless garbage then...still nothing useful to post all these times eh Brass?

 

Don't be frightened Bodie, old boy. We're going to get along like peas and carrots, yes sir, peas and carrots.

Brass

[CanadaMan]

It is quite obvious you had no clue about what was in the 12 point protocol agreed to...

So let us know exactly where is the provisional exception that he *excluded those who might be responsible for the MH17 shootdown from any amnesty/pardon*. Maybe someone can remind Poroshenko in case he forgot. Hurry. The Parliament hasn't yet approved the bill.

What type of public apology will you offer me for your boorish behavior if I produce the reference?

[GQBlues]

Don't be frightened Bodie, old boy. We're going to get along like peas and carrots, yes sir, peas and carrots.

Brass

Frigthened?!? Moi!  OOOOooooooo.... 

How old are you now? Pushing 70?
 

[GQBlues]

What type of public apology will you offer me for your boorish behavior if I produce the reference?

Just the facts, baby. Just the facts...Don't give me editorials, journalist supposition, speculations, etc...I want the actual provision of the bill stating clearly what is exactly in it..

Additionally, like I said, considering no one knows who did the downing, likely no one will, how does this apply to the rebels at this point in time?

[GQBlues]

Just the facts, baby. Just the facts...Don't give me editorials, journalist supposition, speculations, etc...I want the actual provision of the bill stating clearly what is exactly in it..

Found the actual draft bill. I stand corrected.

16 вересня 2014, 12:20

 Інформаційне управління Апарату Верховної Ради України
Верховна Рада України ухвалила Закон "Про недопущення переслідування та покарання осіб-учасників подій на території Донецької та Луганської областей"
 

Законодавчим актом від кримінальної відповідальності звільняються особи, які вчинили в період з 22 лютого 2014 року по день набрання чинності Законом включно на території Донецької, Луганської областей, на якій проводилась антитерористична операція, діяння, що містять ознаки злочинів, передбачених Кримінальним кодексом України, і які під час вчинення зазначених діянь:

- були учасниками збройних формувань або особами, задіяними в діяльності таких формувань, та/або

- брали участь в діяльності самопроголошених органів в Донецькій, Луганській областях або протидіяли проведенню антитерористичної операції.

Законом встановлено, що названі особи звільнятимуться від кримінальної відповідальності за умови, що вони до спливу місяця з моменту набрання чинності законом звільнили або не утримують заручників, добровільно здали державним органам або не зберігають вогнепальну зброю, бойові припаси, вибухові речовини, вибухові пристрої, військову техніку, не займають будівлі, приміщення державних органів і органів місцевого самоврядування та не беруть участі у блокуванні роботи органів державної влади, органів місцевого самоврядування, підприємств, установ, організацій у Донецькій та Луганській областях, про що подали відповідну заяву в орган досудового розслідування, який здійснює кримінальне провадження.

Згідно із законом, відповідні кримінальні провадження підлягатимуть закриттю. Підлягатимуть закриттю також ті кримінальні провадження, які розпочаті у зв'язку з вищеназваними діяннями і в яких жодній особі не повідомлено про підозру.

Дія цього закону не поширюватиметься на осіб, які:

- є підозрюваними, обвинуваченими (підсудними) і не здійснили дії, передбачені частиною другою статті 1 Закону, та/або

- підозрюються або обвинувачуються у вчиненні діянь, що містять ознаки злочинів, передбачених низкою статей Кримінального кодексу України, або засуджені за вчинення злочинів, передбачених цими статтями, та/або

- вчинили дії, що призвели до падіння 17 липня 2014 року в Донецькій області літака компанії "Malaysia Airlines" рейсу МН17, та/або перешкоджали проведенню розслідування цієї авіакатастрофи.

Законом також звільняються від адміністративної відповідальності особи, які вчинили в період з 22 лютого 2014 року по день набрання чинності цим законом включно на території Донецької, Луганської областей, на якій проводилась антитерористична операція, діяння, що містять ознаки адміністративних правопорушень, передбачених Кодексом України про адміністративні правопорушення.

Постанови про накладення адміністративних стягнень за вчинення адміністративних правопорушень, що не були виконані до набрання чинності цим законом, виконанню не підлягатимуть.

Відповідний законопроект зареєстровано за №5082.

Google Translate:

September 16, 2014, 12:20

  Information Department of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine
Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine adopted the Law "On prevention of harassment and punishment of persons participating in events in the Donetsk and Lugansk regions"
 

Legislative act exempted from criminal liability those who committed during the period from February 22, 2014 on the date of entry into force of the law including the Donetsk and Lugansk regions, which conducted anti-terrorist operation, acts which have elements of crime envisaged by the Criminal Code of Ukraine, and that during the commission of these acts:

- Were members of armed groups or persons involved in the activities of such groups, and / or

- Participated in the activities of the self-proclaimed authorities in Donetsk and Lugansk regions or opposed the counterterrorist operation.

The law provides that the persons concerned are exempt from criminal liability provided that they before the expiry of one month from the date of entry into force of the law fired or hold hostages, voluntarily surrendered to state authorities or store firearms, ammunition, explosives, explosive devices, military equipment not occupied by buildings, premises of state authorities and local self-government and not involved in the blocking of the state authorities, local authorities, enterprises, institutions and organizations in the Donetsk and Lugansk regions, which have submitted an application to the appropriate authority of the preliminary investigation, which shall criminal proceedings.

By law, the relevant criminal proceedings subject to closure. Subject to closure as those criminal proceedings that started in connection with the above acts and in which any person is notified of the suspicion.

This Law shall not apply to persons who:

- Is suspect, the accused (defendant) and did not realize the actions provided for by Article 1 of the Act and / or

- Suspected or accused of having committed acts which have elements of the crimes set number of articles of the Criminal Code of Ukraine, or convicted of an offense under these articles, and / or

- Have committed acts that led to the fall of the July 17, 2014 in Donetsk Oblast aircraft company "Malaysia Airlines" flight MH17 and / or impeded the investigation of the crash.

The law also exempted from the administrative responsibility of the person who committed during the period from February 22, 2014 to the date of entry into force of this law, including in the Donetsk and Lugansk regions, which conducted anti-terrorist operation, acts which have elements of administrative offenses under the Code of Ukraine on Administrative offense.

Decisions to impose administrative penalties for committing administrative violations that were not made ​​before the entry into force of this law, not subject to execution.

The draft is registered under №5082.

...Additionally, like I said, considering no one knows who did the downing, likely no one will, how does this apply to the rebels at this point in time?

This part still stands.

[CanadaMan]

Found the actual draft bill. I stand corrected.

This Law shall not apply to persons who:

- Have committed acts that led to the fall of the July 17, 2014 in Donetsk Oblast aircraft company "Malaysia Airlines" flight MH17 and / or impeded the investigation of the crash.

Eat crow baby, eat crow!

It is quite obvious you have no clue about what you are saying.

Hehehe 

[GQBlues]

Au contraire. It was *I* who actually found the the draft bill. Not supposition or journalist opinion/interpretation.

Besides, what I would leave aside is if the provisions are actually Poroshenko's authorship, or someone else...

[southernX]

Putin's 'BLUFF'...Nothing makes me think what he is doing is a bluff.  Calling a bluff would be a good move, but calling a non bluff makes a small loss a very big one.  In this case, I don't think he is/was bluffing...and by their lack of action it appears the US/Ukraine concur.


Fathertime!

FT,  call it what you will , but putin has shown by his style of aggression he is not wanting a full scale across all fronts war with NATO/EU /US , he knows he cant win it and even if he pushes the button what would be left wont be worth shite after doing so , the guys not insane , just highly calculating ,

so far he has calculated correctly , he understands  brute force, its his weapon of choice mostly , thing is ukraine doesnt have any supporters  willing to match putins brute force and thus he has not had to this point bring that factor into his calculations as a fact on the ground reality


hes invading and will continue to do so , in such a way as to bring min confrontation back on himself thats been his calculus from the outset
SX

[fathertime]

FT,  call it what you will , but putin has shown by his style of aggression he is not wanting a full scale across all fronts war with NATO/EU /US , he knows he cant win it and even if he pushes the button what would be left wont be worth shite after doing so , the guys not insane , just highly calculating ,

so far he has calculated correctly , he understands  brute force, its his weapon of choice mostly , thing is ukraine doesnt have any supporters  willing to match putins brute force and thus he has not had to this point bring that factor into his calculations as a fact on the ground reality


hes invading and will continue to do so , in such a way as to bring min confrontation back on himself thats been his calculus from the outset
SX

Well SX, yes I'm sure he would prefer to have as little resistance as possible. That makes sense, but that isn't the same as outright bluffing.  If the Western leaders were convinced he was bluffing, then he would have been called, but it appears they also believe he is willing to follow through if he has to....of course I think he would too.  He took a rather large risk with his actions in Ukraine thus far, he has got what he wanted to this point, as Ukraine has become a sacrificial pawn in the world 'game' the leaders of all the powerful countries seem to be playing.


Fathertime!     

[southernX]

Well SX, yes I'm sure he would prefer to have as little resistance as possible. That makes sense, but that isn't the same as outright bluffing.  If the Western leaders were convinced he was bluffing, then he would have been called, but it appears they also believe he is willing to follow through if he has to....of course I think he would too.  He took a rather large risk with his actions in Ukraine thus far, he has got what he wanted to this point, as Ukraine has become a sacrificial pawn in the world 'game' the leaders of all the powerful countries seem to be playing.


Fathertime!   

FT, NAH the key difference is that putin  to date has wanted this invasion more than the west has been prepared to defend it ,

thats been putins  calculation , given his proffessional career etc compared to say obama or cameron /merkel he has won the calculation of what the  actions of his opposition would be , their character proffesional skill is not trained or developed in that type of asessment , whereas putin has been all his career &he pretty much alone gets to make those decisions , thus allowing him to back his convictions /assesments much more easily in the chess game

    ukraine has had to defend itself militarily on its own , until putin steps on nato soil they wont act & NOW THE BIG QUESTION by their own inaction is WOULD NATO ACT EVEN IF PUTIN STEALTHILY DESTABILISED /INVADED ONE OF THEIR OWN ??

by their own hand they have weakened their alliance ,

SX 

[BillyB]

Didn't the US already stated it wasn't Russia that shot down the plane?

the White House permitted US intelligence officials to tell reporters that there is no evidence of the Russian government’s involvement with the downing of the MH17. That doesn't mean America is saying Russia didn't do it. All it's saying is there is no evidence Russia was directly involved. What US intelligence officials has stated is that Russia has created the environment for the MH17 disaster and is at a minimum, indirectly responsible. Providing weapons and training is enough to get Russia in trouble even though they didn't pull the trigger. But eye witnesses says Russian troops were present at the missile delivery system when it shot down the MH17. That's not evidence but enough witnesses testimonies is enough to believe Russia is partially responsible for creating the environment that led to the MH17 downing.

[LiveFromUkraine]

the White House permitted US intelligence officials to tell reporters that there is no evidence of the Russian government’s involvement with the downing of the MH17. That doesn't mean America is saying Russia didn't do it. All it's saying is there is no evidence Russia was directly involved. What US intelligence officials has stated is that Russia has created the environment for the MH17 disaster and is at a minimum, indirectly responsible. Providing weapons and training is enough to get Russia in trouble even though they didn't pull the trigger. But eye witnesses says Russian troops were present at the missile delivery system when it shot down the MH17. That's not evidence but enough witnesses testimonies is enough to believe Russia is partially responsible for creating the environment that led to the MH17 downing.

Ah, gotcha.  You are right, saying they have no evidence isn't the same as saying they didn't do it.