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Author Topic: Kiev + Paris 2018 -- or as I now realize 'what not to do'  (Read 15112 times)

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Offline gaspar227

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Kiev + Paris 2018 -- or as I now realize 'what not to do'
« on: July 27, 2018, 09:42:36 PM »
In July I flew into Kiev to meet a young lady.  30, from a small town near Cherkassy.  I had been talking to her for about 5 weeks, things seemed pretty good.  I had met her on UkraineDate, we had various video chats and daily conversations for several hours. 

I will preface this by saying that I had been looking forward to a trip to just Kiev and possibly an 'explore Ukraine' trip.  I was unsure if I would even meet this girl or if we would hit it off when I planned the trip.  I had planned to be in between jobs for 2+ weeks so I was committed to this trip and stuck in the timing.  This turns out was my first real mistake -- I was going to go regardless so even though red flags started to show towards the actual date of the trip, I stubbornly stuck with the idea of going with this girl.  I would have about 14 days on the ground.  So in an effort to show my seriousness to this woman, I told her I would be in Ukraine and could we meet up. 

Mistake 2. She basically indicated that Ukraine would be 'not interesting' to her for this time and why not go somewhere 'fun' like Paris.  So I thought about this, and not having been in Paris for a couple of years (and completely forgetting my last foreign fiasco) I thought this sounded like a pretty good idea.  I checked airfare/accommodations etc and it didn't seem like it would be a huge upgrade to pick her up in Kiev and explore Europe.  She was a very reasonable, friendly woman.  She seemed like a breath of fresh air.  Why not, you only live once.  The mistake was I pretty much gave her control of the trip.  I should have stayed in Ukraine on a first meeting and made sure things were good. 

Mistake 3.  In my exuberance in finding this woman I failed to notice that she had checked the 'smokes occasionally' box.   I was pretty committed at this point and I asked her about it.  She said "I don't need to smoke, if I want to I do, but I don't have to" and didn't say much other than that.  I told her I really didn't like it and would appreciate if she wouldn't do it on our trip.  I thought that this would be enough to dissuade her.  Bad choice.  She smoked daily and pretty much knew I didn't like it so whenever there was a disagreement point she would smoke to show me that she was the boss. 

Mistake 4. She indicated that she 'sleeps late'  well to me, sleeps late means 10-11.  and on vacation that's reasonable.  I did not listen clearly enough as 'sleeping late' means getting up no earlier than 2:00 PM.  So that meant we did the Louve for 45 mintues.  Versaille for 1.5 hours and the Eiffel tower for 3 hours (2 of them in line) because we could not actually get there at reasonable times.  Overall each of these should have been enjoyed for much longer and with less stress.

One factor about the 'paris' thing that I completely underestimated was the 'wow' factor.  EVERYTHING was new to her, overwhelming.  To the point that to walk to the metro from the apartment required at least 100 photos and stopping at least 15 times to ask me why Paris did this or that.  Did I see that black person, could I take a picture with her and that black person, lets watch this street performer for an hour ... etc.  I realize Paris is overwhelming but after a day or two you'd think we could get from point A to Point B without 100 stops....but alas.  No.  So this was aggravating to me -- again my own fault I know -- but I just didn't realize.

Another curious dichotomy from this woman was money.  If it was something she wanted it was 'only a little money' but I had told her I'm not wealthy prior to this trip.  I had booked Air BNB with a kitchen so we could go not eat out and save money.  This didn't happen.  She not only would not get up, but she would not help cook, help go to the store, help clean.  In fact she just wanted to eat out all the time.  Of course, because she wasn't paying.  We did eat a few meals I cooked for dinner, and I did get breakfast every day (because I was up at 8 and had 5-6 hours to kill before she would get up). 

Then she would tell me stories about how poor she was, how she would not wash the dishes with the water running because water was expensive, or how her family would live on 500 Grivna a month in the winter because all their money went to heating -- meanwhile she's ordering 2 dinners at the restaurant (probably 1200 grivnas worth) because she didn't realize that the steak Carpaccio was RAW (even though I told her like 100 times...even with a google translated version)  LOL.  just crazy. 

Long story short this trip played like the cautionary tales that are written here about this sort of dating.  I did just about everything wrong.  And I was miserable by day 3 of a 10 day trip.  The only reason I didn't cut it way short was that airfare was expensive over the weekend and I did feel bad for her as she complained about how hard going home would be.  She's not a bad person, at heart she's very sweet, but she just doesn't understand how to act -- or at least how to act so that I will like her.  Her actions translated to extreme selfishness and uncaring about how miserable I was on the trip -- even though that's not how she saw it.  In the end neither of us is really right or wrong, but it wasn't a good fit and instead of finding that out on her home turf, we were stuck in Paris. 

I will say on the positive side that we did have some fun nights walking.  The world cup victory parties were great.  Enough alcohol and i didn't mind the cigarettes as much.  Overall it was a waste of time in the sense of a marriage search, but as far as a party trip it could have been much worse.  I blew a lot of cash on someone who did not appreciate it and 100% realize this was because I did not follow some of the basic advice on this board.  We were intimate and this was pretty good, but still much more awkward than I'm used to.  Things just didn't click and it was disappointing for both of us I think.

I did find myself in Kiev alone or 3 days once I put her on a train back home -- and she could not understand what was wrong no matter how many times i explained it or why we didn't stay in Paris longer -- it was just a lost cause.  In general the problem with her in my eyes was she did not listen (granted I did not listen to her clearly to begin with which is my bad).  and had an extreme sense of self worth that simply didn't translate in my book. 

I preceded to try my hand at Ukranian Tinder.  Which was another lesson in what not to do as there are mostly pros working there -- either grifters (I bought a woman $50 worth of candy without realizing what was going on BEFORE the date (which I'm sure she returned after)) or hookers.  Again I had only a couple days so who knows what would have happened had I spent the whole 2 weeks in Kiev.  I really think I could have had at least 1-2 very promising women had I not been so stubborn up front for this one. 

In general my plan originally was to meet several women on UkraineDate in Kiev.  Setup an apartment there for a week and explore the city, and see what the capital was like.  I had spent 2 weeks in Odessa previously, and was excited to see Kiev and maybe take a train to Lviv and see the Carpathians after. 

I am now confident this is what I should have done.  There are so many women walking around and if I had not committed to a single woman sit unseen prior to the trip, I am confident I could have gone out with a different interesting, beautiful woman most nights with a just a small effort. 

On the positive side, I stayed right off of independence square, I could see the fountains from my window.  The Air BnB was very affordable ($80/night) and food and drink in the city -- even the center of center -- is much more affordable than other cities in Europe. 

I learned a little about Kiev and what it's like there -- at least enough to give it another try.  I would say that this was my least successful trip of the summer as far as my connection with the other person, mostly because of my first mistake.  I made a trip and then sort of slotted a girl into the trip, let her take over the control of the trip and didn't screen her correctly according to what I wanted.  In short I was in a hurry and really just hoped for the best instead of planning for the best.  It was 'my bad' and I'm not going to cry about it.  I still learned a lot and would say that next time I will be more careful in my screening, or not go attached to a single woman and just enjoy the city as a vacation destination not a place to meet a single woman.

We'll see what mistakes I make next time ).  I'm not a quitter but I'm beginning to wonder if I'm not cut out to be 'real man' enough for these Ukranian women.  Only time will tell I guess.  I'll give another shot or two I guess :)






Offline msmob

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Re: Kiev + Paris 2018 -- or as I now realize 'what not to do'
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2018, 09:54:01 PM »
Gaspar227,

An honest and absorbing read....thank you

Smoking is a BIG No no for me and SO many FSU W underplay this unfortunate habit. 

What mildly irritates will seriously annoy you, when a relationship goes through a rocky period

You've learnt a lot - don't let it deflect from your search ..

 Good Luck

« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 10:35:50 PM by msmob »

Offline BillyB

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Re: Kiev + Paris 2018 -- or as I now realize 'what not to do'
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2018, 10:10:44 PM »
Long story short this trip played like the cautionary tales that are written here about this sort of dating.  I did just about everything wrong.  And I was miserable by day 3 of a 10 day trip.

You met a good time girl that likes to party on someone else's dime. Men should save the romantic trips to exotic places for girlfriends and wives. Take a girl for a first meeting, it's hard to figure out if she's there for you or Paris. Hard to figure out if a girl is wife material in Paris anyway.

You've done lots of prior communications before visiting the last few girls and they were awful. I remember you cheered on RW_Recruiter in his trip report after he visited a girl who has a habit of asking men for money she never met so she can buy boots for her brother who stepped on a land mine. Seriously rethink how you judge people and decide on who to visit. Quality family orientated women would not be communicating the same way those other girls did with you. There is a difference. Identify those quality women and choose the visit them. You may come back her and announce you found a woman that is mentally stable, works hard, introduced you to their family, and is willing to be your partner in life.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline jone

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Re: Kiev + Paris 2018 -- or as I now realize 'what not to do'
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2018, 10:41:05 PM »
This gal had your number from day one.  She knew she was in control and seriously wanted a vacation, not a romantic attachment.  You have to understand that many of these gals discuss this in advance and have their attitudes planned out.  What do they have to lose?  Nothing.  I would not be surprised if she purposely was misunderstanding your conversations intentionally.

Your inability to decipher a woman's motives left you open to this type of event.  Chalk this one up as a learning event and get on with it.  I would not contact anyone from Ukraine Date.  Those gals (if they are really gals) have been trained how to handle Western men. 

I remember a gal who wanted to meet me in an exotic place.  She had me going for about a day until she wondered if she could do some shopping once we got to the destination.  I laughed and said 'of course'.  Bring your own money, pay for your own air fare, and buy me some stuff while you're at it.  She chased me for months after that, wondering what she had done wrong.  Pretty girl.  Ugly inside.

Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Offline Steamer

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Re: Kiev + Paris 2018 -- or as I now realize 'what not to do'
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2018, 11:00:42 PM »
At least the trip wasn't a complete bust. Sounds like there was some good times.
I'll bet that you won't let that happen twice!
Life ain't nothing but a poker game
And no two hands are quite the same
But I never saw a winner that didn't bet

Offline Boethius

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Re: Kiev + Paris 2018 -- or as I now realize 'what not to do'
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2018, 11:13:59 PM »
First, kudos for posting a train wreck. Most won’t.

How old is she?
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline John Gaunt

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Re: Kiev + Paris 2018 -- or as I now realize 'what not to do'
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2018, 12:31:22 AM »
Thanks for posting. You’ve learnt from the experience so take heed and move on. If you have red lines then don’t be an Obama. Stick to your principles.

Offline Trenchcoat

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Re: Kiev + Paris 2018 -- or as I now realize 'what not to do'
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2018, 03:09:52 AM »
First, kudos for posting a train wreck. Most won’t.

How old is she?

Ahem, I did, credit where it's due Boe :D
"If you make your own bread, then and only then, are you a free man unchained and alive living in pooty tang paradise, or say no and live in Incel island with all the others." - Krimster

Offline msmob

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Re: Kiev + Paris 2018 -- or as I now realize 'what not to do'
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2018, 03:28:14 AM »
In your case - you were more stupid - some of us told you BEFORE you went and you've taken nothing practical on-board, since


Offline Trenchcoat

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Re: Kiev + Paris 2018 -- or as I now realize 'what not to do'
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2018, 03:38:27 AM »
Hi Gaspar, you basically had pretty much the same deal as had with the girl I was with last year. So I know exactly what it feels like. Basically ever since I have made notes of the Red Lines not to cross and what to watch out for on my mobile phone notepad app. I do this just to remind myself not to make the same mistake again just in case I start slipping in the future or forget why I shouldn't cross  one of these Red Lines it's all there explained for me as a reminder.

So yeah as you may have read from my trip report 'Third time lucky in Kiev' or rather not, lol, which led on to a holiday in Cyprus with my girl. So same deal, her wanting to eat out and carelessly not caring about waste or the cost as of course again she was not paying. Even if a girl does not think much of the guy I find it very unthinking behaviour to not care less at all one iota for the guy.

They are unfortunately a waste of space and of time and seem devoid of any notion that they are creating a nuisance of themselves. Even trying to talk to them about this is like hitting a void in their mind. They are basically silly cows best avoided. It's why I came out with the 'Trenchcoat's Pitfall Avoidance Code' - presently on page 3 of the Experienced section of this website at time of writing this - to alert others to these types of girls, holiday whores if you like. Admittedly someone else may want to take this on seeing as there are forum members that see me as unworthy of such.

I think there is definate need to do some sort of updated guide/rules/red lines on these as I don't think the 10 commandments are sufficient enough to deal with these situations/types of girls since the are not quite scammers just girls that are nuisances taking the pee who are getting in the way of a guys search for their own narrow selfish ends.

I well know the feeling Gaspar when it looks like a girl has come up and it looks hopeful only for her to turn out to be dodgy. I'm not sure whether it is truly possible to warn others of the situation and they take note or whether it's just experience gained from these experiences to educate a guy to avoid those types of girls. One thing to try and take away from these experiences is to definitely date her in her own country for a fair while first, preferably her home city I think.
"If you make your own bread, then and only then, are you a free man unchained and alive living in pooty tang paradise, or say no and live in Incel island with all the others." - Krimster

Offline John Gaunt

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Re: Kiev + Paris 2018 -- or as I now realize 'what not to do'
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2018, 04:24:08 AM »
Hi Gaspar, you basically had pretty much the same deal as had with the girl I was with last year. So I know exactly what it feels like. Basically ever since I have made notes of the Red Lines not to cross and what to watch out for on my mobile phone notepad app. I do this just to remind myself not to make the same mistake again just in case I start slipping in the future or forget why I shouldn't cross  one of these Red Lines it's all there explained for me as a reminder.

So yeah as you may have read from my trip report 'Third time lucky in Kiev' or rather not, lol, which led on to a holiday in Cyprus with my girl. So same deal, her wanting to eat out and carelessly not caring about waste or the cost as of course again she was not paying. Even if a girl does not think much of the guy I find it very unthinking behaviour to not care less at all one iota for the guy.

They are unfortunately a waste of space and of time and seem devoid of any notion that they are creating a nuisance of themselves. Even trying to talk to them about this is like hitting a void in their mind. They are basically silly cows best avoided. It's why I came out with the 'Trenchcoat's Pitfall Avoidance Code' - presently on page 3 of the Experienced section of this website at time of writing this - to alert others to these types of girls, holiday whores if you like. Admittedly someone else may want to take this on seeing as there are forum members that see me as unworthy of such.

I think there is definate need to do some sort of updated guide/rules/red lines on these as I don't think the 10 commandments are sufficient enough to deal with these situations/types of girls since the are not quite scammers just girls that are nuisances taking the pee who are getting in the way of a guys search for their own narrow selfish ends.

I well know the feeling Gaspar when it looks like a girl has come up and it looks hopeful only for her to turn out to be dodgy. I'm not sure whether it is truly possible to warn others of the situation and they take note or whether it's just experience gained from these experiences to educate a guy to avoid those types of girls. One thing to try and take away from these experiences is to definitely date her in her own country for a fair while first, preferably her home city I think.

All of this can be explained in a one liner.

Don’t listen to Trench

Offline Trenchcoat

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Re: Kiev + Paris 2018 -- or as I now realize 'what not to do'
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2018, 05:45:46 AM »
I think Gaspar the real smoking gun you had was when he said 'Kiev would not be interesting for her'. The point being that she should find a visit in itself from you to be the interest. I had similar with my girl. She wanted to meet me in Kiev as Kherson would not be interesting. Of course in itself Kherson would not but as they say on here go for the girl and not the place.

Now I know more of what to look for I find a girl gives herself away a lot by the things she says and the answers she gives. A real girl will play it straight up and play things in a normal fashion.

I also got the 'real man' BS as Boethius explained it's basically what manipulative girls come out with. So a case of always leave yourself free to walk from girl, go to her country so a replacement may be more easily sought and listen out for the warning signs that she is after a free ride.

Interesting you found Tinder to be a bad move. Helps re-confirm my decision to delete it off my apps on my mobile and as an avenue to source a girl. Looks like those online dating apps are becoming a Mecca for scammers & hookers. Good report Gaspar I always think more is to be learnt from the bad happenings than the good ones.
"If you make your own bread, then and only then, are you a free man unchained and alive living in pooty tang paradise, or say no and live in Incel island with all the others." - Krimster

Offline msmob

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Re: Kiev + Paris 2018 -- or as I now realize 'what not to do'
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2018, 07:20:07 AM »
All of this can be explained in a one liner.

Don’t listen to Trench

Quite...

and when he 'thinks' - he's simply proving - he isn't ...

Offline ML

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Re: Kiev + Paris 2018 -- or as I now realize 'what not to do'
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2018, 11:42:47 AM »
Gaspar, thanks for posting.
Sorry you had to make the mistakes that many here warn about, and that have been made by dozens (hundreds) of guys before you.
Many of us never will go except on WMVM trips, while others cast us as terrible people and will only go on WOVO trips such as yours.
Rarely are WMVM trips complete disasters, whereas many WOVO trips are disasters.
Most (unlike you) will not honestly admit to such.
And, as you now know, the worst kind of WOVO trip involves a vacation away from her home city for the gal.

In case you want to take a more logical, organized approach next time around, here is the guide:

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=14615.0
A beautiful woman is pleasant to look at, but it is easier to live with a pleasant acting one.

Offline msmob

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Re: Kiev + Paris 2018 -- or as I now realize 'what not to do'
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2018, 11:46:22 AM »

Rarely are WMVM trips complete disasters, whereas many WOVO trips are disasters.


I believe this assertion is misleading and inaccurate..

THIS poster found that WM trips were the disasters re finding a long-term partner

There IS no right way ..just what's right for you and her


Offline Nightwish

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Re: Kiev + Paris 2018 -- or as I now realize 'what not to do'
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2018, 12:20:07 PM »
great trip report, yes a complete disaster but as gaspar already said, he already know that..

I read it and could feel the agony being in similar situations in my early days in this quest. After all, it is a learning process no matter how much we read here or in other places. I started out without even knowing this forum existed.
I simply took the leap out in to the unknown and landed the highest price there is..  :) 
Multitasking means screwing up several things at once.

Offline Boethius

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Re: Kiev + Paris 2018 -- or as I now realize 'what not to do'
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2018, 02:01:36 PM »
I think Gaspar the real smoking gun you had was when he said 'Kiev would not be interesting for her'. The point being that she should find a visit in itself from you to be the interest. I had similar with my girl. She wanted to meet me in Kiev as Kherson would not be interesting. Of course in itself Kherson would not but as they say on here go for the girl and not the place.

Now I know more of what to look for I find a girl gives herself away a lot by the things she says and the answers she gives. A real girl will play it straight up and play things in a normal fashion.

It isn't that she played him, she didn't.  It is that they had different expectations of their meeting. That's probably why she was perplexed at him putting her on a train.

I would hazard a guess there is at least a 10 year age gap between them, probably more.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2018, 02:03:27 PM by Boethius »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Online Hammer2722

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Re: Kiev + Paris 2018 -- or as I now realize 'what not to do'
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2018, 02:09:44 PM »
First, kudos for posting a train wreck. Most won’t.

How old is she?


She is 30 yrs old
every ship can be a minesweeper at least once...

Offline Nightwish

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Re: Kiev + Paris 2018 -- or as I now realize 'what not to do'
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2018, 02:15:25 PM »
It isn't that she played him, she didn't.  It is that they had different expectations of their meeting. That's probably why she was perplexed at him putting her on a train.

I would hazard a guess there is at least a 10 year age gap between them, probably more.

14 years according to the information provided, he told in his first post he is 44
Multitasking means screwing up several things at once.

Offline Boethius

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Re: Kiev + Paris 2018 -- or as I now realize 'what not to do'
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2018, 02:18:23 PM »
Thank you, to both of you.  So, a fairly significant age gap. 

I believe their expectations were just different. 
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline BillyB

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Re: Kiev + Paris 2018 -- or as I now realize 'what not to do'
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2018, 03:41:14 PM »

Age gap isn't the problem here. The woman will use men in her 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, etc...regardless of age or age gap.  She has bad manners and probably not going to change. If gaspar found a woman with good manners, she wouldn't use him for a free vacation. She wouldn't even suggest to meet in Paris to begin with as this good time girl did.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline Boethius

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Re: Kiev + Paris 2018 -- or as I now realize 'what not to do'h
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2018, 03:46:14 PM »
Not everyone is looking for a teenaged virgin.

The problem here was not the woman. It was what a lack of communication, and what each expected from their meeting.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline BillyB

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Re: Kiev + Paris 2018 -- or as I now realize 'what not to do'h
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2018, 04:06:02 PM »
The problem here was not the woman. It was what a lack of communication, and what each expected from their meeting.


Of course the woman has a problem. She knew gaspar had serious intentions but she didn't care to impressing him by displaying good character traits and gaspar didn't like her smoking but she did it anyway. If she, at the age of 30, couldn't read how unhappy gaspar was at times at, then she's dumber than a box of rocks.

Good time girls usually give men great communication and pretend to like those men. With the attention they get, men tend to choose to visit those girls over family orientated girls.

Not everyone is looking for a teenaged virgin.


What does this emotional outburst have to do with gaspar?
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

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Re: Kiev + Paris 2018 -- or as I now realize 'what not to do'
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2018, 04:09:03 PM »
I had no emotional outburst.  I am merely pointing to facts.

That is quite a jump in logic, to assume the woman knew what gasper's intentions were.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2018, 04:11:28 PM by Boethius »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline BillyB

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Re: Kiev + Paris 2018 -- or as I now realize 'what not to do'
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2018, 04:19:50 PM »
That is quite a jump in logic, to assume the woman knew what gasper's intentions were.


You're assuming two people who just met on the internet agreed to meet in another part of the world without discussing and/or understanding what each other's objective and goals are. They spent 5 weeks communicating and you think they don't know what each other is looking for? Even if they didn't know, she knew gaspar didn't like smoking and continued to do it daily. If that is how she treats the person paying for her vacation, she has a problem and she's not marriage material since she doesn't understand what respect is about.

Even if the woman was 40 years old, a significant reduction in age gap wouldn't make her marriage material.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

 

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