She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...

[vwrw]

So, her price tag for trust is 100 k$. 

No, 100k is her price for risk taking and giving him a chance and time to trigger the trust development in her. As you may know from economics theories, when people perceive risk, they expect to be rewarded for risk taking. The higher is the risk they perceive, the higher is the reward they want for taking the risk. Is it her fault that she perceive relationship with him as a risky venture?   Looking at her price tag, I would say she is almost sure their relationship will not last.  Don't you think it was too easy to ruin the PO's enthusiasm about the possibility of having a good relationship with this woman? Just for a moment put aside the judgment if it is good or bad that his enthusiasm is gone and focus on  the question how easy was it to ruin his enthusiasm? To me, it appeared too easy and that made me wonder if his lack of commitment provoked her thoughts about the need of guarantee.

[Faux Pas]

No, 100k is her price for risk taking and giving him a chance and time to trigger the trust development in her. As you may know from economics theories, when people perceive risk, they expect to be rewarded for risk taking. The higher is the risk they perceive, the higher is the reward they want for taking the risk. Is it her fault that she perceive relationship with him as a risky venture?   Looking at her price tag, I would say she is almost sure their relationship will not last.  Don't you think it was too easy to ruin the PO's enthusiasm about the possibility of having a good relationship with this woman? Just for a moment put aside the judgment if it is good or bad that his enthusiasm is gone and focus on  the question how easy was it to ruin his enthusiasm? To me, it appeared too easy and that made me wonder if his lack of commitment provoked her thoughts about the need of guarantee.

Completely JMHO but, this is not a risk/reward venture. Her ability to put a price on her vagina at least until the kid graduates university, she has no risk under such an arrangement. She's looking for a payday. A longer term prostitution arrangement

[Belvis]

Don't you think it was too easy to ruin the PO's enthusiasm about the possibility of having a good relationship with this woman? Just for a moment put aside the judgment if it is good or bad that his enthusiasm is gone and focus on  the question how easy was it to ruin his enthusiasm? To me, it appeared too easy and that made me wonder if his lack of commitment provoked her thoughts about the need of guarantee.

OK, let's assume OP enthusiasm has passed the money test. Then what? It's a blind alley for building trust. Whether or no OP shows enough commitment she shows no any sign of it.

[Anechka]

I don't know the intentions of that lady, however, I do understand her to a certain extent: she is about 40-50, she has her steady income in Turkey, she has a daughter to support. So, such a venture as marriage (especially a marriage abroad) is quite risky. Here are the doubts I had before getting married:
1) I don't know the guy well enough, I don't know if the marriage would work.
2) I'm moving to a different country with different traditions and mentality, language wasn't an issue for me, but for some women it is a problem.
3) I'm leaving everything behind: parents, friends, life... The job wasn't an issue since I was a university graduate at that time.

Therefore, I had a backup plan in case marriage wouldn't work before I got married, not after. I think it's perfectly normal to think through what you are going to do in case something goes wrong. It has nothing to do with love or any feelings. It's perfectly normal to ask for some securities, since a woman isn't moving to a different district of a city but to a different country.

It's quite difficult to say if that woman has same issues like I had.

[Daveman]

I don't know the intentions of that lady, however, I do understand her to a certain extent: she is about 40-50, she has her steady income in Turkey, she has a daughter to support. So, such a venture as marriage (especially a marriage abroad) is quite risky. Here are the doubts I had before getting married:
1) I don't know the guy well enough, I don't know if the marriage would work.
2) I'm moving to a different country with different traditions and mentality, language wasn't an issue for me, but for some women it is a problem.
3) I'm leaving everything behind: parents, friends, life... The job wasn't an issue since I was a university graduate at that time.

Therefore, I had a backup plan in case marriage wouldn't work before I got married, not after. I think it's perfectly normal to think through what you are going to do in case something would go wrong. It has nothing to do with love or any feelings. It's perfectly normal to ask for some securities, since a woman isn't moving to a different district of a city but to a different country.

It's quite difficult to say if that woman has same issues like I had.

Yeah, I can definitely understand some of those points...






Here are her requirements for marriage/moving here.


$60,000 annual salary for herself.. (tax exempt)
Additional $36,000 per annum for daughter (tax exempt)
Purchase a condo/house in her name (value/amount yet to be determined).

No, 100k is her price for risk taking and giving him a chance and time to trigger the trust development in her. As you may know from economics theories, when people perceive risk, they expect to be rewarded for risk taking. The higher is the risk they perceive, the higher is the reward they want for taking the risk. Is it her fault that she perceive relationship with him as a risky venture?   Looking at her price tag, I would say she is almost sure their relationship will not last.  Don't you think it was too easy to ruin the PO's enthusiasm about the possibility of having a good relationship with this woman? Just for a moment put aside the judgment if it is good or bad that his enthusiasm is gone and focus on  the question how easy was it to ruin his enthusiasm? To me, it appeared too easy and that made me wonder if his lack of commitment provoked her thoughts about the need of guarantee.

VWRW, you make an interesting point with the risk/reward theory here.  It seems though that she herself gave her own summation:


"She HAStold me that Russian women are taken care of like this AND even Turkish men do it."

[Misha]

She owns her own business as a sports instructor for children. 


She makes the equivalent of $5,000 to $7,000 monthly.

Perhaps I am a bit cynical, but I do wonder whether the salary might be more than a tad inflated. Would a sports instructor for children really earn up to $7,000 per month in Turkey?

[Faux Pas]

I don't know the intentions of that lady, however, I do understand her to a certain extent: she is about 40-50, she has her steady income in Turkey, she has a daughter to support. So, such a venture as marriage (especially a marriage abroad) is quite risky. Here are the doubts I had before getting married:
1) I don't know the guy well enough, I don't know if the marriage would work.
2) I'm moving to a different country with different traditions and mentality, language wasn't an issue for me, but for some women it is a problem.
3) I'm leaving everything behind: parents, friends, life... The job wasn't an issue since I was a university graduate at that time.

Therefore, I had a backup plan in case marriage wouldn't work before I got married, not after. I think it's perfectly normal to think through what you are going to do in case something goes wrong. It has nothing to do with love or any feelings. It's perfectly normal to ask for some securities, since a woman isn't moving to a different district of a city but to a different country.

It's quite difficult to say if that woman has same issues like I had.

Did you love the man? Where did a modicum of trust enter into your decision? Did you make such a demand?

[Muzh]

If our Op really feels strongly about this woman, he can slow things down and (almost) close his wallet.  Then the relationship can develop or not develop normally.

I'm here scratching my shaved head why in the world the OP would feel for this woman at all?

Whassamata wiz you? Are you stoopid?

That's from a movie which I forget the name. Basically, open up your eyes and face reality.

Seriously, I cannot understand why you even had to ask.

[Faux Pas]

I'm here scratching my shaved head why in the world the OP would feel for this woman at all?

Whassamata wiz you? Are you stoopid?

That's from a movie which I forget the name. Basically, open up your eyes and face reality.

Seriously, I cannot understand why you even had to ask.

C'mon Muzh, is it really that difficult to understand? Different cultures and all and she did tell him Russian and even Turkish men do this. 

We get many "like" questions but, what I find bizarre is Paulie does come off as an intelligent, experienced man. Prior to asking this question, he didn't appear overly concerned that she might be fibbing to the old boy. He's made numerous trips to see her in Turkey, obviously amassed enough wealth to consider her a stipend for being a wife and seems honest enough in his intentions. Just another one that raises my brow and makes me go "hummmmmmm"

[JayH]

It is nice to see a wider cross section of opinions forming of what the real issues are here-- and not being stuck on the size of the ambit claim !!
I see the $ amounts as an ambit outline-- I presume she has no idea of what is required to live in US( before any of you open your mouths--neither do you as we do not know OPs location or lifestyle.
On money-- if OP has told her of some general numbers-- was it a figure of a $180K contract mentioned?-- she may have quite the wrong idea about the OPs worth. The guy could be a billionaire for all we know-- and alternatively  he could be Joe Better than Average income . If she has been advised of a contract floating around as an extra $180K -- a spare $180K-- it has probably affected her thinking of what is a fair cut of that for her.Not assessing right and wrong here-but it is the quote that Dave raises above.It is the type of discussion that one may have when entering a living arrangement--mistress if you like to use the old fashioned terms.That is an arrangement that is not so unusual to the FSU-- hence my comment on the cultural issues.
Perhaps earlier I was not clear about what I would do-- I would be sitting and talking about all this to be sure the OP has got all this correct.From there I would work my way through the  why is this and that needed etc.
It is possible the OP does not want this lady to work in her new home- does that affect some of your thinking?
Part of my discussion with this lady would be about setting up business in her new home-it may or may not be viable.Try thinking about that cost-- and see if her requests still seem excessive.

[Gator]

 She HAS told me that Russian women are taken care of like this AND even Turkish men do it. 

I missed this when reading the OP.  This is a screaming alarm.  It is very telling, very telling indeed.  Daveman caught it.
 
The only answer to a woman stating what RM would do is, "I am not other men, I am me.  I want to build a permanent family with you, not a temporary cohabitation.  If you do not want this with me and are not committed to this, our relationship is over."
 
No one has noted the contradiction between what the woman asked for and what she did in her life.   Based on the OP's posts, his woman was not "kept" but did indeed on her own build a successful business,  pay for her daughter's expensive education, etc.  That is, she did not accept what she implied RM and TM would offer her.  So there is hope IMO.
 
 
I gather this woman is in her 40s.   Anechka raises good points about such women.  Based on reactions I ask, How many of you critical of this woman have dated RW in their 40-50s?   I did and married one.  Such women have experienced the collapse of the CCCP and have dealt with economic instability far worse than our recent recession.  In many cases the husbands abandoned their families (or the wife kicked them out for  drinking, gambling and womanizing and not earning money).  It created feelings of insecurity. 
 
When the collapse happened, a few RW elected the easy way out and married western men with whom they had spent less than a week together.    I suppose many became kept women, but were passed from RM to RM as their youth faded, reaching a life of despair.     I gather that most RW did neither.  They followed their  survivor instincts, rolled up their sleeves and went to work, taking care of their children.   And a few RW such as the OP's woman actually thrived even though the FSU was a man's world.    It gave them a strong sense of independence.   Some accepted help from boyfriends, but not at a level to be considered bought and owned. 
 
As VWRW notes, giving up a profitable business and moving to a strange land involves risk.  And these women in their 40s already know the adverse consequences of risk.  Making a decision to move is far different for them   than it would be for a younger woman who still has her youth and never knew the pain of the CCCP collapse.
 

I repeat, this venture is about forming a family, not a temporary cohabitation arrangement.  Both parties must be totally committed to wanting and expecting it to succeed.  Her demands do not show commitment.
 
Paulie, good luck in Istanbul with your deliberations.  After you tell her that you are not a RM, there should be a 30-second pause for her to decide definitively if she wants a life with you or not.   No negotiation.   You may be sleeping alone in Istanbul, but sleeping well knowing that you avoided a train wreck.  Or the two of you may be planning her move to California.

 
If you proceed together, a prenup certainly seems advisable for both parties.  It would guarantee her startup money if the marriage dissolves, and it would protect your assets from certain attorneys who would relish pursuing them and running up a huge legal bill in the process.

[Faux Pas]

It is nice to see a wider cross section of opinions forming of what the real issues are here-- and not being stuck on the size of the ambit claim !!
I see the $ amounts as an ambit outline-- I presume she has no idea of what is required to live in US( before any of you open your mouths--neither do you as we do not know OPs location or lifestyle.
On money-- if OP has told her of some general numbers-- was it a figure of a $180K contract mentioned?-- she may have quite the wrong idea about the OPs worth. The guy could be a billionaire for all we know-- and alternatively  he could be Joe Better than Average income . If she has been advised of a contract floating around as an extra $180K -- a spare $180K-- it has probably affected her thinking of what is a fair cut of that for her.

Ah, now we're down to the brass tacks. A "fair cut" for her. What in your opinion is a fair cut Jay? He is essentially paying her a salary to be his wife under the guise of security. Does he set standards on how clean the house should be, set the schedule for sex? Does he get oral on alternate days or should he, for that kind of money demand it everyday?

Not assessing right and wrong here-but it is the quote that Dave raises above.It is the type of discussion that one may have when entering a living arrangement--mistress if you like to use the old fashioned terms.That is an arrangement that is not so unusual to the FSU-- hence my comment on the cultural issues.
Perhaps earlier I was not clear about what I would do-- I would be sitting and talking about all this to be sure the OP has got all this correct.From there I would work my way through the  why is this and that needed etc.

So, this is where you would negotiate the total sum and strike the not so necessary line items in the "budget"?

It is possible the OP does not want this lady to work in her new home- does that affect some of your thinking?

I don't recall him mentioning this either way but, surely that is just too large of a salary to not expect any "work" in the home isn't it?

Part of my discussion with this lady would be about setting up business in her new home-it may or may not be viable.Try thinking about that cost-- and see if her requests still seem excessive.

As you might surmise I an an anti-prenup guy to start with. That's likely because I don't have a family fortune or heirs to protect. Nor would I enter into a marriage with an insured policy to failure. IMHO, the OP was honest in his question. I think he's gullible and your advice puts a price tag on gullibility.

[Anechka]

Did you love the man? Where did a modicum of trust enter into your decision? Did you make such a demand?

Why "did"?  still married to him (we celebrated our 7th anniversary this January)

My point is: having doubts are normal.  She already went through one marriage that ended up in divorce, there might be even more behind that she doesn't want to tell, we never know what caused such eagerness for financial security (for example, my grandma was starving when she was little, her younger sister died of starvation, so she has a very particular attitude to food that is very difficult to understand, especially for those who don't know her background).

Back to my post: I didn't earn $5000-7000 at that time, my income was less, though not bad for a university graduate, I didn't have any children to support (ensuring her daughter's future is important to her). Therefore, all I asked for is to provide me the same level of life I had in Russia. You can't compare someone getting married at 23 and at 40-50, that woman has much more to loose that I used to have.

[I/O]

She's in Istanbul right? I'd be doing some more homework....................just sayin.

[BillyB]

  Based on reactions I ask, How many of you critical of this woman have dated RW in their 40-50s?   
 

I've dated over a dozen women in that age category right here in America. One RW seemed interested in what I can buy her when at the shopping mall. Another ask for financial security whether we are friends with benefits or end up getting married. Money and gifts were important to those ladies. Some ladies I didn't date long enough to get a read on them. The rest were interested in me as a person. Some cooked meals for me and took care of my money when we went out. If Paulie gives himself options, he may not find a better looking woman outside but he certainly can find a woman that is better inside. With a variety of women out there, why settle for this one?

As VWRW notes, giving up a profitable business and moving to a strange land involves risk. 

With risk should come reward but it's apparent a marriage with Paulie alone is not rewarding enough. $100,000 a year plus an apartment would ease the woman's pain should she enter marriage with Paulie. If the woman trusts and respected Paulie enough, she should trust he would take care of her in marriage very well with his wealth. Should they divorce, America's system in dividing wealth is favorable to ladies.


Considering the woman has personal wealth and a business, why is she even looking outside the country for a foreign man to begin with because that would mean she has to give it all up? Since the Turkish men will take care of her adequately as she has stated there would be less risk losing everything if she stayed in Turkey. I suspect Paulie was a too generous with her in the beginning. I don't know what kind of intelligence Paulie has to come across his fortune but more important than intelligence is wisdom and as the ole saying goes "a fool and his money will soon part". Paulie needs wisdom at this time to make the right decisions. Most of us have seen or heard of situations of women using men for personal gain in dating and in marriage. Too  many good low risk options for Paulie out there to take a chance with this one.

[Faux Pas]

Why "did"?  still married to him (we celebrated our 7th anniversary this January)

Congratulations on your marriage happiness. 

My point is: having doubts are normal.  She already went through one marriage that ended up in divorce, there might be even more behind that she doesn't want to tell, we never know what caused such eagerness for financial security (for example, my grandma was starving when she was little, her younger sister died of starvation, so she has a very particular attitude to food that is very difficult to understand, especially for those who don't know her background).

Such doubts are normal for anyone entering into a marriage, not just 40 yr old RW. The uncertainty of the unknown. Many people go through divorce yet do not end up with such an immense financial greed. Anechka, I can appreciate your point/position here but, the bottom line is, the lady requests to be a paid wife. I'm not judging such arrangements. To each his/her own. My experience is when they say it isn't about the money, it is about the money. I'm reading an OP that feels he is in love with a woman who is in love with his money. If she truly wants security and independence she'll earn that herself even though it might would require her to stay in Turkey to do it.

Back to my post: I didn't earn $5000-7000 at that time, my income was less, though not bad for a university graduate, I didn't have any children to support (ensuring her daughter's future is important to her). Therefore, all I asked for is to provide me the same level of life I had in Russia. You can't compare someone getting married at 23 and at 40-50, that woman has much more to loose that I used to have.

No she really doesn't. Her past and history notwithstanding, she blames the ex for past financial failures and will likely blame the future hubby for future failures. If she is commanding a salary with a job/business in Turkey, she'll likely be more successful with it in the U.S.. Is a loving, trusting marriage going to incapacitate her in the future from doing what she is doing today? I say no. If I were the OP, I'd not only run as fast as I could, I'd throw rocks and run.

Marriage isn't a financial arrangement. If it is, one doesn't need a marriage license, just a contract.

[Anechka]

 Anechka, I can appreciate your point/position here but, the bottom line is, the lady requests to be a paid wife. I'm not judging such arrangements. To each his/her own. My experience is when they say it isn't about the money, it is about the money. I'm reading an OP that feels he is in love with a woman who is in love with his money.

Marriage isn't a financial arrangement. If it is, one doesn't need a marriage license, just a contract.

Well, my grandma likes saying: a man loves his woman proportionally to the money he's invested into her  The more money is invested, the more he loves her

I'm not defending anyone here, I don't think we have all the information, tbh. concerning her supposed future successful - hard to be sure at the moment.

However, if she doesn't trust him, and heirs still considering marrying her, he had to ask all her financial documents proving that she DOES earn that amount of money and any other information for him to decide if he wants to proceed.

[Boethius]

If she isn't willing to risk anything, why did she even consider dating an AM?  Why isn't she looking for one of those Turkish men who will support her? 

[Faux Pas]

Well, my grandma likes saying: a man loves his woman proportionally to the money he's invested into her  The more money is invested, the more he loves her

I'm not defending anyone here, I don't think we have all the information, tbh. concerning her supposed future successful - hard to be sure at the moment.

However, if she doesn't trust him, and heirs still considering marrying her, he had to ask all her financial documents proving that she DOES earn that amount of money and any other information for him to decide if he wants to proceed.

Granny strikes me as a wise woman albeit a bit on the pessimistic side 

No we don't have all the information. We never do but, it doesn't stop us from jumping to all sort of conclusions and filling in the blanks ourselves. It's what we forum dwellers do.

Should the OP proceed with this woman, he should ask for all of her financial documentation for due diligence. After all, he would be entering into a binding contract. She obviously doesn't trust him IMHO. Honestly, had my wife made such a request at any stage I would have been appalled and gone.

[lonedrake]

She is also about 12 months out of a marriage that while the ex was a nice man and 'waited on her hand and foot,' he failed the marriage financially. 

She does want to come to the US as her daughter lives in Miami and will stay in the US. 

 I would guess since you met in July....she had only been divorced for 5 months when you met.

She already wants to come to the USA. Why does everyone think she is giving up so much...when she wants to come here anyways.

She was "waited on hand and foot" to a nice man......yet that wasn't good enough. Apparently he was not able to give her enough money.


 Lets see......she already wants to move to the US to be near her daughter.....she would give up this business anyways to do this. Now she has a chance to have her own apartment...paid for....and 5,000 per month + her daughters education paid for.


 Sounds like a good deal to me. Where can I sign up? 

[BillyB]

Well, my grandma likes saying: a man loves his woman proportionally to the money he's invested into her  The more money is invested, the more he loves her

Your grandmother forgot to tell you the rest of the story. When a man gives everything to a woman to prove his BIG love, he runs out of money which means he runs out of love and then the woman goes looking for a another man that will love invest in her.

[Anechka]

Your grandmother forgot to tell you the rest of the story. When a man gives everything to a woman to prove his BIG love, he runs out of money which means he runs out of love and then the woman goes looking for a another man that will love invest in her.

Not a bad idea to get a new husband instead of old one 

[Jumper]

She's in Istanbul right? I'd be doing some more homework....................just sayin.

x2
 
Look, it may have come from a past husband ,boyfriend or occupation, nothing wrong with that.
but A UW in Turkey setting up a business on her own
isnt all that common.The fact she was  national gymnist and moved there, wouldnt be either actually.
If thats gross income,in Istanbul, it seems possibly legit, if its her take home,  it seems inflated.
 
If shes done this on her own, then really she would seem more independent and capable to do so in the USA as well,with help from you.It would seem she'd be asking more along those lines, of if things dint work out , would you set up a prenup to help start her business over.. 
 than a flat fee , salary requiremernt , or stipends.
The most reasonable thing is her daughters education expenses.The most absurd is a salary for herself to compensate her losses.
If she was an AW in Dallas, and relocating to be with you  Miami, would you seriously consider covering her lost income/salary monthly?Odds are even the daughters education would be a very serious discussion.
Why is this different?
She has proven herself to be successful and can do it anywhere.So this seems a simple business transaction.
 
No this isnt what a RM would do.
 

[I/O]

A UW in Turkey setting up a business on her own isnt all that common.

Hmmm, I beg to differ and that was my point. I'd just put some quotation marks around "business".

[JayH]

 

First --I have to praise all  the  participants in this thread for adding to a genuine interesting discussion without resorting to insults and rubbish to destroy the thread.It has also stayed on topic.
Everyone has raised valid points ( even a few that touch the potentially more distasteful potential) and it makes for thought provoking raising of the issues for the OP.
I don't agree with those saying dump her--the OP is in the drivers seat and knows how he feels.I think he can work his way thru this-- and that process will tell him a lot in itself.
I actually think that the issues and opinions expressed here will help him!!