Russian Women Discussion
RWD Discussion Groups => Odds and Ends => Topic started by: calmissile on December 06, 2014, 12:17:51 AM
-
Someone posted this on my Facebook account today. Since it reflects my position on the topic so well, I thought I would share. :)
-
The problem is somewhat related to amnesty issue as many illegal or semi-illegal aliens even with e-verify are stuck in these jobs. Do I support a minimum wage hike? No. Do I support the President's amnesty plan? No. But I do believe men of good will can find compromise to solve problems. Its what we used to do.
-
What I read was the rants of a woman who is getting shafted in pay and wants everyone to be in her same level of misery.
-
Minimum wage should be increased and/or the EIC should be increased even more. The growing disparity in wages is ultimately going to be harmful to all of society.
Fathertime!
-
Also, the far right wastes no time in accusing the liberals in class warfare. So I wonder where this woman got her class warfare ideas.
-
A little off-topic, but I play golf with two wounded warriors from Iraq.
They did not express any sentiment against raising the minimum wage, but pointed out if enacted a McDonald's beginning worker would make more than sergeants with four years of experience risking their lives defending our country.
If true, the military needs a pay raise too, a big raise!
-
My 2 cents:
Bill Gates created and sold the technological equivalent of crack-cocaine, ie a computer operating system which has numerous problems and which each year gets more and more complicated -- for which people line up to pay. He made hundreds of Billions. Instead of investing any money in US factories to employ US workers to make X-boxes and such, he had the stuff made in China by people working 6 days a week at slave wages. I don't know how many of them committed suicide, but it's a well known fact that many of the Apple workers in China did just that.
And he sends a large chunk of the profits to Africa for charity.
I don't know if these guys are Republicans or Democrats, but apparently shipping jobs to China began with a Republican (Nixon and then Reagan). Regardless of what the Federal government mandates the minimum wage to be -- the first step is to give tax breaks and other incentives to Corporations to bring manufacturing back to the USA.
-
Supposedly been done in Chicago....
http://www.valdostadailytimes.com/news/business/things-to-know-on-chicago-s-new-minimum-wage/article_b7dd56e0-7b0e-11e4-a401-3b196fd888ae.html (http://www.valdostadailytimes.com/news/business/things-to-know-on-chicago-s-new-minimum-wage/article_b7dd56e0-7b0e-11e4-a401-3b196fd888ae.html)
The politically popular idea comes as Emanuel faces re-election
Go figure...I can't
-
I can understand the woman's frustration with the unfairness of things but why ridicule some poor fast food worker for trying to better his lot in life. Your average pro sports player makes about a million more a year than a GI for running around with a ball. Sure it's unfair but we live with it.
-
Abolish the minimum wage
-
Someone posted this on my Facebook account today. Since it reflects my position on the topic so well, I thought I would share. :)
Er... Excuse me, but how about all the benefits military provides, with free medical and dental care for servicemen and their families, free (or heavily subsidized) room and board, and GI bill to name just a few. If you add the cost of all these benefits to the salary, the total compensation is quite good.
While low-wage fastfood workers do not have all those great benefits and need to rely on their measly pay only to pay for roof and food. For most healthcare (not even decent healthcare) is out of reach.
The woman is an dumb at best, a dumb hypocrite is a more likely case.
-
Those who think that military pay is great should perhaps ask themselves if they would like their son to be sent to fight in Afghanistan or Iraq or whatever the next hot spot is that soldiers and marines will be sent to. If you really think that the meager pay these guys get properly compensates them for the hellish existence of being in a war zone then you really are out of touch. There is a high chance that they might never come home and also a chance that if they do it will be minus a limb or two as well as the possibility of suffering traumatic brain injury.
And free medical care from the VA? Again this person doesn't have a clue as they've never dealt with that system.
As far as working at a fast food restaurant -- many of them now pay better than minimum wage to start. These are entry level jobs and minimum wage was always meant to be a starting wage.
Should the national minimum wage be close to $10.00 per hour? I think so. I think $7.25 an hour as a federal minimum wage is a joke and an insult, however I am much more concerned about the shrinking middle class not having the jobs which pay far better than that.
That is the area that really needs improvement. It won't happen as long as the Federal government keeps stealing tax money for wasteful programs, instead of letting that money get invested in the private sector. As Doll mentioned in another thread, food stamps and other free stuff in this country is at epidemic levels. Are these programs really needed at the level they are at, or could some cuts be made?
One of the biggest reasons there is downward pressure on wages is that politicians have given amnesty to about 25 Million illiterate immigrants. This affects the quality of life of all Americans who got here legally.
I've read that corporate taxes are less in many countries (such as Norway for example) than they are in the USA. Cut the red-tape and the cost of doing business in the USA and middle class jobs will come back. It's a tried and proven remedy that only conservatives have the common sense to do.
-
That's why it's called "military service". It's supposed to be a contribution to your country.
-
"The minimum wage is just a clumsy anti-poverty program," said Allen Sanderson, a senior lecturer in the University of Chicago's Department of Economics. "I'd rather go after skills and improve skills. I want people to have more command in the workplace, and I want them to have much more than $7.25 an hour. I just don't want McDonald's to be the place where they can make that."
Sanderson and many other economists and public policy experts fear a number of unintended consequences if the minimum wage is raised from its current level to $10.10 per hour, as President Barack Obama has proposed. These include:
A loss of jobs, as predicted by a recent Congressional Budget Office report, which forecast that total U.S. employment could be reduced by 500,000 jobs.
An increase in consumer prices, driven by companies offsetting increased labor costs.
The possibility that a higher minimum wage would attract more experienced workers and keep them in lower-wage jobs longer, blocking young people or people with limited work experience from entry-level jobs.
The job loss argument is supported by many different academic studies, though proponents of boosting the minimum wage offer up studies of their own showing negligible effects on employment.
But a widely cited 2006 study by David Neumark, an economics professor at the University of California at Irvine, and William Wascher, deputy director of research and statistics at the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System, examined the literature on this issue and found "the weight of the evidence points to dis-employment effects."
It also found that "minimum wages may harm the least skilled workers more than is suggested by the net dis-employment effects estimated in many studies."
Jonathan Meer, an assistant professor of economics at Texas A&M, in a study released in December, looked at how an increase in the minimum wage affects future job creation. The results were not good.
He found that the "minimum wage reduces net job growth, primarily through its effect on job creation" and that those effects "are most pronounced for younger workers and in industries with a higher proportion of low-wage workers."
That's of considerable concern to people like Sanderson and Craig Garthwaite, an assistant professor of management and strategy at Northwestern University's Kellogg School of Management.
"That's troubling, because I think it's important for people to get into the labor market," Garthwaite said. "Even if these aren't great jobs, they lead to better jobs as your skills improve. That's the idea. I don't think we should be doing anything to dissuade people from entering the job market right now."
The core of the argument here is that the minimum wage is meant to be commensurate with the work skills, education and productivity at that point in time of people entering the workforce. The goal, then, is to get in at that wage, develop skills and quickly work your way out of minimum wage and up the pay scale.
Sanderson said a minimum wage of $10.10 per hour might not only attract more qualified workers who would block out less-skilled candidates, it could lure young people out of high school and into jobs that while low-paying would be more appealing than ones at the current $7.25 per hour.
"The biggest anti-poverty program we have in the U.S. is getting somebody a job," Sanderson said. "If you're a high school dropout, you may be a lovely human being, but you're virtually unemployable. How do we make sure that five or 10 years from now, that person has reason to become a bigger part of the economy?"
The better approach, according to minimum wage hike opponents, is to put money into education and job preparedness plans, which they say have proven success records. And then improve targeted programs like the Earned Income Tax Credit which subsidizes low-income working families to directly help the working poor.
"The minimum wage is poorly targeted, and a fair number of beneficiaries of an increase are not going to be people in poverty," Garthwaite said. "The minimum wage does go to people in poverty, but it also goes to a large number of people who are second or third earners in their family."
-
This discussion should not be happening. If we go back to basics the government should not be making laws like this. The free market will determine what people are worth.
The constitution and bill of rights were drafted to limit the power of Government. The founders knew from history how Governments gather and abuse power. It was set up to totally reject liberalism and progressive type activity. They were wise enough to know there are always groups of people who try and control everything through the power of government. They tried to set up a system to stop what they experienced in the past.
It worked for about 150 years. The last 100 years have been a slow drip of more government control. I think the USA has about another 100 years left before it self destructs. The wise men never realized the population would become so uneducated about common sense and unable to keep a government in check when given a system to do so.
-
Those who think that military pay is great should perhaps ask themselves if they would like their son to be sent to fight in Afghanistan or Iraq or whatever the next hot spot is that soldiers and marines will be sent to. If you really think that the meager pay these guys get properly compensates them for the hellish existence of being in a war zone then you really are out of touch. There is a high chance that they might never come home and also a chance that if they do it will be minus a limb or two as well as the possibility of suffering traumatic brain injury.
I don't like it but I didn't stop him. As a matter of fact, I'm glad he did. He came back a man. Right now he rides a crotch rocket. His chances of leaving his brains splattered all over the road are much higher than when he was in Fajullah. Again, I'm not happy about that either, but then again, I had a Kawasaki 750 two-stroke with expansions when I was his age so he will bring that up every time I tell him about his bike.
And free medical care from the VA? Again this person doesn't have a clue as they've never dealt with that system.
I'm very optimistic that big changes are going to occur to the VA very, very soon.
As far as working at a fast food restaurant -- many of them now pay better than minimum wage to start. These are entry level jobs and minimum wage was always meant to be a starting wage.
Should the national minimum wage be close to $10.00 per hour? I think so. I think $7.25 an hour as a federal minimum wage is a joke and an insult, however I am much more concerned about the shrinking middle class not having the jobs which pay far better than that.
That is the area that really needs improvement. It won't happen as long as the Federal government keeps stealing tax money for wasteful programs, instead of letting that money get invested in the private sector. As Doll mentioned in another thread, food stamps and other free stuff in this country is at epidemic levels. Are these programs really needed at the level they are at, or could some cuts be made?
Do you ever research on your own? That was an inane sound bite from talk-show radio.
Here, see if you can use your brain to make some conclusions.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/07/12/the-politics-and-demographics-of-food-stamp-recipients/
One of the biggest reasons there is downward pressure on wages is that politicians have given amnesty to about 25 Million illiterate immigrants. This affects the quality of life of all Americans who got here legally.
Please provide a citation for this "25 million illiterate immigrants" statement. Or is it form talk-show radio, again?
I've read that corporate taxes are less in many countries (such as Norway for example) than they are in the USA. Cut the red-tape and the cost of doing business in the USA and middle class jobs will come back. It's a tried and proven remedy that only conservatives have the common sense to do.
Here, with picture for easy understanding.
http://www.forbes.com/pictures/eglg45hhik/japan-2/
Psst, according to Forbes, US Corporate taxes are just a hair higher than the median for industrial nations.
-
"The minimum wage is just a clumsy anti-poverty program," said Allen Sanderson, a senior lecturer in the University of Chicago's Department of Economics. "I'd rather go after skills and improve skills. I want people to have more command in the workplace, and I want them to have much more than $7.25 an hour. I just don't want McDonald's to be the place where they can make that."
Couldn't agree more with that statement. However, go to a school board meeting, anywhere in the US. Pushing hard for real-life class subjects. Read: Learn how to operate a cash register.
Why?
Because it cost a lot of money to educate properly our youth.
Now, guess who goes to the school board meetings and yell the loudest.
(Hint: They sound like this "I don't have any children so why should I pay for a goddamn lazy whippersnapper constantly playing video games?"
-
This discussion should not be happening. If we go back to basics the government should not be making laws like this. The free market will determine what people are worth.
The constitution and bill of rights were drafted to limit the power of Government. The founders knew from history how Governments gather and abuse power. It was set up to totally reject liberalism and progressive type activity. They were wise enough to know there are always groups of people who try and control everything through the power of government. They tried to set up a system to stop what they experienced in the past.
It worked for about 150 years. The last 100 years have been a slow drip of more government control. I think the USA has about another 100 years left before it self destructs. The wise men never realized the population would become so uneducated about common sense and unable to keep a government in check when given a system to do so.
Bullshevik!
It is a FACT that sonny born into money will grow up to have money and minority born into squalor will grow up to be someone's bitch in jail.
And then there are the exceptions to the rule where sonny will grow up to be a homeless drug junkie and minority will win the lotto and take off from there.
You still believe that hard work will make you rich?
-
You still believe that hard work will make you rich?
Well of course I say to the negative man.
It will make you rich in more ways than you can imagine. Hard work gives you richness in mind, soul, and body. The by product is richness in paper currency if needed.
-
Well of course I say to the negative man.
It will make you rich in more ways than you can imagine. Hard work gives you richness in mind, soul, and body. The by product is richness in paper currency if needed.
If you put it in those terms, then I have no argument. BTW, the paper is worthless. But you knew that already. ;D
-
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Hourly_Minimum_Wages_in_Developed_Economies%2C_2011.jpg)
-
I think the USA has about another 100 years left before it self destructs.
That many? I'm worried about the next two.
Actually, America was a Johnny-come-lately on wage reform stuff...
The first national minimum wage law was enacted by the government of New Zealand in 1894 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Conciliation_and_Arbitration_Act_1894), followed by Australia in 1896 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_labour_movement) and the United Kingdom in 1909 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_Boards_Act_1909).[8] In the United States, statutory minimum wages were first introduced nationally in 1938 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Labor_Standards_Act_of_1938),[
Note that King Edward III had a maximum wage rule---
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage
-
I wouldn't mind if it was full health care for these people first and wages second. Most are young and healthy so premiums might be better than most.
-
And free medical care from the VA? Again this person doesn't have a clue as they've never dealt with that system.
Explain.
-
The VA sucks. They do everything on their power not to give you decent care. A bloated government agency
-
The VA sucks. They do everything on their power not to give you decent care. A bloated government agency
:clapping: Privatize it, save Billions and vastly improve care.
-
The VA sucks. They do everything on their power not to give you decent care. A bloated government agency
Just because you ask for more drugs and they deny your request doesn't mean they suck.
-
A large part of the "problem" rests with the VA patient.
Many ex-military personnel have an unhealthy lifestyle: smoke, drug and alcohol abuse, don't exercise, consume an unhealthy diet, avoid annual medical screening, .....
One day they pay the piper. When they eventually show up at the VA doors they need more procedures and treatment than civilians who rely on the standard healthcare network.
I am not saying the VA is efficient, yet part of the problem is the patient's choices of lifestyle.
-
The VA sucks. They do everything on their power not to give you decent care. A bloated government agency
You are a veteran? Been to VA med center? Tried to receive care?
Many ex-military personnel have an unhealthy lifestyle: smoke, drug and alcohol abuse, don't exercise, consume an unhealthy diet, avoid annual medical screening, .....
VA provided a smoking cessation program many years ago.
I quit with the meds that were provided.
Had hep C was cured there.
12 week program from VA
See what it would otherwise cost...
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/editorials/ct-hepatitisc-drug-cure-edit-0728-20140728-story.html
Had two surgeries on my foot [$100K at least on the outside were it out of pocket]
I could go on.
Stay healthy everyone..
-
Side notes about military health care...
Active duty people and families have military post hospitals.
Veterans go to VA hospitals.
If the condition is non service related it is not entirely free.
There is a co-pay for the doctors and medicines unless they are programs like I mentioned above.
There can be crappy treatment in any medical facility in the world.
Minimum wage will probably have minimum care unfortunately.
-
A large part of the "problem" rests with the VA patient.
Many ex-military personnel have an unhealthy lifestyle: smoke, drug and alcohol abuse, don't exercise, consume an unhealthy diet, avoid annual medical screening, .....
One day they pay the piper. When they eventually show up at the VA doors they need more procedures and treatment than civilians who rely on the standard healthcare network.
I am not saying the VA is efficient, yet part of the problem is the patient's choices of lifestyle.
The thanks of a grateful nation . . .
-
You are a veteran? Been to VA med center? Tried to receive care?
If you were speaking from fraternal concern as a fellow veteran, you would not ask such questions so publicly there are buttons and hyperlinks that permit the use of private messaging. So not knowing the spirit of the inquiry, I must therefore decline to answer your request but refer you a device that will make answers ready for you - the google machine.
VA provided a smoking cessation program many years ago.
I quit with the meds that were provided.
Had hep C was cured there.
12 week program from VA
See what it would otherwise cost...
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/editorials/ct-hepatitisc-drug-cure-edit-0728-20140728-story.html
Had two surgeries on my foot [$100K at least on the outside were it out of pocket]
I could go on.
Stay healthy everyone..
I am glad the VA cured you of your venereal disease, no doubt service related, I am sure. :rolleyes: I know it may be just beyond your ability, but there is documentary evidence of other experiences independent of your own about the aforementioned health bureau and its utility. My experiences are consistent with the experiences of other Veterans - a majority of Veterans.
Here is one such video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OG6dPOvK-yQ
Others have posted similar videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m28601GJu_4
This is an Air Force veteran who is a malpractice survivor.
Here is another Veteran's story:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0m2zw3wgV8
I could go on.
SHUT IT DOWN EVERYONE.
-
:clapping: Privatize it, save Billions and vastly improve care.
Finally some common sense in a sea of clap traps and tit nits
-
Tough to get a yes or no at times.
-
:clapping: Privatize it, save Billions and vastly improve care.
Will not happen.
-
Will not happen.
Not with a leftwing Democrat as President. They would rather spend Trillions more on a bloated incompetent bureaucracy rather than pull the plug, privatize and give Veterans the care that they deserve.
-
Change is coming
-
Not with a leftwing Democrat as President. They would rather spend Trillions more on a bloated incompetent bureaucracy rather than pull the plug, privatize and give Veterans the care that they deserve.
I honestly wish that you would show a little bit of intelligence.
For example, if it is NOT TOO MUCH to ask.
Why don't you compare Obama's record with that paragon of conservativism, Ronald Reagan? Or another true conservative, Richard Nixon?
And please wear sunglasses, you don't want to be blinded by the light.
-
Weed is legal where you live, right?
Obama is a failure. Even you know that.
-
Weed is legal where you live, right?
Obama is a failure. Even you know that.
THAT is not the point.
-
Merry Christmas brother
-
Bill Gates offers a solution for income inequality.
http://fortune.com/2014/10/15/bill-gates-income-inequality/?xid=ob_rss
-
Never liked that dude, his wife or his company
-
Never liked that dude, his wife or his company
I don't much care for him either, however did you even read the article? Can you offer any rebuttals to what he wrote in an objective fashion?
-
I am sorry but I don't see income inequality as a problem. It's a fact of life.
-
I am sorry but I don't see income inequality as a problem. It's a fact of life.
If you had read the article then you would know that he makes the case that a wealthy person who re-invests his wealth in a company that puts people to work is preferable to a wealthy person who only buys yachts and other stuff.
I don't see wealth itself as a problem; I see people who never give back to society as potential problems.
-
Bill Gates offers a solution for income inequality.
http://fortune.com/2014/10/15/bill-gates-income-inequality/?xid=ob_rss (http://fortune.com/2014/10/15/bill-gates-income-inequality/?xid=ob_rss)
When Mitt Romney can make millions of dollars and pay an effective tax rate of 14% then something is very wrong and not good for the society at large. Those loopholes have to be closed for the VERY wealthy. In addition we should raise the EIC for the working poor. I also think the minimum wage needs to be looked at closely, and possibly raised again.
The Gates plan looks terrible to me and is unworkable anyway. I don't like the way they talk about how they are going to confiscate the wealthy people's money like like that..but something has to be done.... Estate taxes are at a relatively high level currently even for a single person (exemption is around 5.25 million and adjust with inflation yearly). If a man is worth 50 million most of his estate should be taxed according to the law...but again the very wealthy are experts at finding ways around paying much of anything.
Fathertime!
-
You're right FT. 14% is way to high. If Jesus Christ only asked 10%. Uncle Sam should be able to conduct his affairs with half that
-
Simple solution. Every citizen obtains a state income. Those who wish can work to earn more, those who preer to sit can.
-
When Mitt Romney can make millions of dollars and pay an effective tax rate of 14% then something is very wrong and not good for the society at large. Those loopholes have to be closed for the VERY wealthy.
Why not close all loopholes for everyone? Simpson-Bowles, or an even flatter and simpler tax plan. The answer, it would make a huge number of accountants and lawyers jobless.
OTOH the loopholes are there to encourage capital investment, which is good if you believe in capitalism.
...but again the very wealthy are experts at finding ways around paying much of anything.
Rather than talk about it at a discussion forum on Russian women (especially when you have no Russian woman), you should spend your time campaigning for Elizabeth Warren. If she wins, your socialism dreams may come true. If she loses, you can remain miserable by continuing to whine.
-
You're right FT. 14% is way to high. If Jesus Christ only asked 10%. Uncle Sam should be able to conduct his affairs with half that
Hey dipstick, JC advocated for 100% tax rate if you wanted to attain the kingdom of god. He was a socialist.
-
Rather than talk about it at a discussion forum on Russian women (especially when you have no Russian woman), you should spend your time campaigning for Elizabeth Warren. If she wins, your socialism dreams may come true. If she loses, you can remain miserable by continuing to whine.
YOU seem a little grumpy and whiny. I merely responded to the discussion, and now you feel you have to whine about it? A raise in taxes does NOT equal socialism, that is a stale line the rich like to 'whine' about to prevent it from happening! A hallmark of a 3rd world society is a huge disparity in wealth with almost everybody on the bottom, and I would like to see that avoided. We need a strong middle class, and reasonable taxes on the very wealthy are a part of that equation. 14% for a guy making 10's of millions is not reasonable....especially when even middle class earners are paying a higher percentage...but I'm ok with you arguing that it is...if you want to. ;D
Fathertime!
-
YOU seem a little grumpy and whiny. I merely responded to the discussion, and now you feel you have to whine about it? A raise in taxes does NOT equal socialism, that is a stale line the rich like to 'whine' about to prevent it from happening! A hallmark of a 3rd world society is a huge disparity in wealth with almost everybody on the bottom, and I would like to see that avoided. We need a strong middle class, and reasonable taxes on the very wealthy are a part of that equation. 14% for a guy making 10's of millions is not reasonable....especially when even middle class earners are paying a higher percentage...but I'm ok with you arguing that it is...if you want to. ;D
Fathertime!
I have to give it to the fathead, his heart is in the right place. Now, if he would stop being a shill for the Russians this message would not be lost in the din.
-
I have to give it to the fathead, his heart is in the right place. Now, if he would stop being a shill for the Russians this message would not be lost in the din.
:-*
Fathead!
-
Hey dipstick, JC advocated for 100% tax rate if you wanted to attain the kingdom of god. He was a socialist.
Spoken from an atheist
-
YOU seem a little grumpy and whiny. I merely responded to the discussion, and now you feel you have to whine about it? A raise in taxes does NOT equal socialism, that is a stale line the rich like to 'whine' about to prevent it from happening! A hallmark of a 3rd world society is a huge disparity in wealth with almost everybody on the bottom, and I would like to see that avoided. We need a strong middle class, and reasonable taxes on the very wealthy are a part of that equation. 14% for a guy making 10's of millions is not reasonable....especially when even middle class earners are paying a higher percentage...but I'm ok with you arguing that it is...if you want to. ;D
Grumpy and whiny? Yes, I always get grumpy when seeing your name listed in "Recent Posts," and for good reason. However, you Chicken Little are the whiner.
Why grumpy? Your remarks about Romney are an example of how you will spend 10 seconds in reading something, don't dig deeper, and leap to a conclusion. Then you write a post espousing something inane, yet absurdly thinking you are smart. It is tedious, and tedious makes me grumpy.
Today you use Romney as a surrogate what what's wrong with America. Did you study why he paid only 14%?
Because you can only read for 10 seconds, I give you two facts.
1. Half of his income was capital gains, taxed by Uncle Sam at a flat rate of 15% (to encourage investment).
2. He and his wife contributed 30% of their income to charity, and contributions are deductible.
So you criticize a man who invests in America and donates 30% of his income to the needy. One could say that he pays 44% in taxes (14% to the US government who does not do a good job in spending tax revenue + 30% to organizations who use the contributions more effectively than the US government would do based on what I have seen in US welfare spending).
So tell me what is bad about what Romney did with his money?
-
BTW, I agree with Chicken Little that we need a stronger middle class.
This country lost big when it selected Obama over Romney. Then again, I sort of like Obama for what he has done to diminish the Democratic Party. Jeb actually has a chance in 2016.
-
Grumpy and whiny? Yes, I always get grumpy when seeing your name listed in "Recent Posts," and for good reason. However, you Chicken Little are the whiner.
Why grumpy? Your remarks about Romney are an example of how you will spend 10 seconds in reading something, don't dig deeper, and leap to a conclusion. Then you write a post espousing something inane, yet absurdly thinking you are smart. It is tedious, and tedious makes me grumpy.
Today you use Romney as a surrogate what what's wrong with America. Did you study why he paid only 14%?
Because you can only read for 10 seconds, I give you two facts.
1. Half of his income was capital gains, taxed by Uncle Sam at a flat rate of 15% (to encourage investment).
2. He and his wife contributed 30% of their income to charity, and contributions are deductible.
So you criticize a man who invests in America and donates 30% of his income to the needy. One could say that he pays 44% in taxes (14% to the US government who does not do a good job in spending tax revenue + 30% to organizations who use the contributions more effectively than the US government would do based on what I have seen in US welfare spending).
So tell me what is bad about what Romney did with his money?
I'm glad I hit a nerve with you and have made you grumpy and have once again resorted to name-calling as a substitute for normal dialogue. :D
You have stated a lot of OBVIOUS facts. Romney has been thinking about, was, and has been running for president for probably 15-20 years. Yes he has been donating his money, and I say good for him...but I don't believe for a moment that he represents the typical mega-millionaire or multi-millionaires in general. Some choose to donate and MANY others do not, either way it is their decision. I think Romney in many respects is an outstanding man, so the characterization you made on my behalf was your crusty old imagination.
The capital gains tax is low currently, but I feel it could/should be raised. It is an investment disproportionately by mega-millionaires and is almost always passive income. The lower classes do not have money to invest and do not receive the same direct benefit, so it is in effect a big tax break for the people that need it least. Money to construct a society has to come from somewhere, so I see good reason to make sure that those that have benefited the most are paying more than a mere 14% of their earnings. I paid more than that, and I am not Mitt Romney. I await (as you would say) your tedious response. :popcorn:
Fathertime!
-
Grumpy and whiny? Yes, I always get grumpy when seeing your name listed in "Recent Posts," and for good reason. However, you Chicken Little are the whiner.
Why grumpy? Your remarks about Romney are an example of how you will spend 10 seconds in reading something, don't dig deeper, and leap to a conclusion. Then you write a post espousing something inane, yet absurdly thinking you are smart. It is tedious, and tedious makes me grumpy.
Today you use Romney as a surrogate what what's wrong with America. Did you study why he paid only 14%?
Because you can only read for 10 seconds, I give you two facts.
1. Half of his income was capital gains, taxed by Uncle Sam at a flat rate of 15% (to encourage investment).
2. He and his wife contributed 30% of their income to charity, and contributions are deductible.
So you criticize a man who invests in America and donates 30% of his income to the needy. One could say that he pays 44% in taxes (14% to the US government who does not do a good job in spending tax revenue + 30% to organizations who use the contributions more effectively than the US government would do based on what I have seen in US welfare spending).
So tell me what is bad about what Romney did with his money?
Gator getting upset again? Say it isn't so! :)
Gator, you forgot how Romney amassed a lot of money without paying normal income taxes. Things like carried interest tax breaks are typically what most people are against and for good reason. As far as I know, that "tax break" is still around.
What he does or doesn't do with his money has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
-
Grumpy and whiny? Yes, I always get grumpy when seeing your name listed in "Recent Posts," and for good reason. However, you Chicken Little are the whiner.
Why grumpy? Your remarks about Romney are an example of how you will spend 10 seconds in reading something, don't dig deeper, and leap to a conclusion. Then you write a post espousing something inane, yet absurdly thinking you are smart. It is tedious, and tedious makes me grumpy.
Today you use Romney as a surrogate what what's wrong with America. Did you study why he paid only 14%?
Because you can only read for 10 seconds, I give you two facts.
1. Half of his income was capital gains, taxed by Uncle Sam at a flat rate of 15% (to encourage investment).
2. He and his wife contributed 30% of their income to charity, and contributions are deductible.
So you criticize a man who invests in America and donates 30% of his income to the needy. One could say that he pays 44% in taxes (14% to the US government who does not do a good job in spending tax revenue + 30% to organizations who use the contributions more effectively than the US government would do based on what I have seen in US welfare spending).
So tell me what is bad about what Romney did with his money?
http://www.businessinsider.com/mitt-romneys-charitable-donations-mormon-church-2012-7 (http://www.businessinsider.com/mitt-romneys-charitable-donations-mormon-church-2012-7)
So he donated 80% to the Mormon Church and then some through the Tyler Foundation.
(Okay, so what is good for Obama is good for Romney)
So what does that say? He was just trying to be a Mormon in good standing so he could use it for his presidential aspirations.
Oooo, what a charitable guy. Ooo, what a giver. Oooo, what a man!! If only I could grow up and be a millionaire like him!
Yep, he gave.
Now, what would JC Superstar would think about that?
-
What he does or doesn't do with his money has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
Not so fast. Topic is Minimum wage in the USA and we are talking about the gazillionaires who are complaining that 47% of the population are a bunch of moochers and raising the minimum wage would cut into their profits. ;)
-
Not so fast. Topic is Minimum wage in the USA and we are talking about the gazillionaires who are complaining that 47% of the population are a bunch of moochers and raising the minimum wage would cut into their profits. ;)
Let the gazillionaires make more so they can give more but don't raise min wage so the people can make more without having to wait for scraps. Makes sense.
-
Let the gazillionaires make more so they can give more but don't raise min wage so the people can make more without having to wait for scraps. Makes sense.
Excellent. And while we are at it, why don't we get rid of the unions? After all, there are laws that prevent usury (credit cards) legalized racketeering (insurance) and slave labor (50 wk work year). This way people can work harder (3-50 wk work year jobs) and build a strong middle class without the need of handouts.
Heh, there goes millions of white people malnourished. Just like the gilded age where the industry lions could and would flood entire towns because the dam was not the right size of their horse-buggy.
And while you are at it, get rid of mandated health insurance. Just don't get sick as some pundits argued.
I promise you, this will be the time when the Second Amendment will come in very handy to many Americans.
-
Why single Romney out? Surely there were more appropriate examples of what's wrong with America, such as Bernie Madoff, pro athletes, etc.
-
I expressed my position earlier: increase the minimum wage but also increase military pay, as military pay for many is below minimum wage.
That can't happen because military pay comes from Federal tax revenue, and that is needed for more "change and hope" programs. Minimum wage is paid by businesses and they can afford anything including more taxes, higher health insurance premiums (to provide coverage not for their workers but for people who chose an unhealthy lifestyle), etc.
-
Why single Romney out? Surely there were more appropriate examples of what's wrong with America, such as Bernie Madoff, pro athletes, etc.
YOU and your angry grumpiness are unsuccessfully trying to make Romney (and socialism) the issue. I merely mentioned Romney as an example of how a person can make mega millions and pay relatively little in taxes. I didn't demonize him as an individual, like you implied. He was an example that everybody has heard about, and he has disclosed his tax rate, which few others have done. If you want to sound off against Madoff and pro athletes then go ahead, but my response was to AC's Bill Gates link, and that didn't have to do with the criminal actions of Madoff or (what I feel) are the inflated salaries of pro athletes. So go ahead and defend all the mega-millionaires who pay 14% in tax,(or less) if you think that is a worthy cause!
Fathertime!
-
I expressed my position earlier: increase the minimum wage but also increase military pay, as military pay for many is below minimum wage.
That can't happen because military pay comes from Federal tax revenue, and that is needed for more "change and hope" programs. Minimum wage is paid by businesses and they can afford anything including more taxes, higher health insurance premiums (to provide coverage not for their workers but for people who chose an unhealthy lifestyle), etc.
Businesses don't pay anything, they pass on expenses to customers. Some may be able to pass on more with higher prices and others will have to take in less profit.
I don't have a problem paying more for products if that means people are able to support themselves and their families. That is what most people want, isn't it? I think many miss the human factor when discussing these topics. It isn't always about numbers but about people who just want a decent life.
-
So go ahead and defend all the mega-millionaires who pay 14% in tax,(or less) if you think that is a worthy cause!
Fathertime!
Hey FT, if you're talking about capital gains tax rates then I don't see a problem with it. You also have to factor in corporate taxes into the equation.
Now if you're talking about tax breaks like carried interest, I'm with ya.
-
Businesses don't pay anything, they pass on expenses to customers.
Why don't you start a business and charge huge prices so you can become a gazillionaire, and then contribute your money to charity because your taxes are too low.
I don't have a problem paying more for products if that means people are able to support themselves and their families. That is what most people want, isn't it? I think many miss the human factor when discussing these topics. It isn't always about numbers but about people who just want a decent life.
You have expressed your opinion. I respect it but personally don't subscribe to it exactly as you phrased it. Why do I imagine you sitting in front of your computer screen, wearing a T-shirt saying Hands Up - Don't Shoot?
-
Hey FT, if you're talking about capital gains tax rates then I don't see a problem with it. You also have to factor in corporate taxes into the equation.
Now if you're talking about tax breaks like carried interest, I'm with ya.
First I'm happy you are back to posting!
I agree with you on carried interest, but I am also think capital gains tax at 15% is too low at this point in time. In a more perfect world it could be doable....The 15% rate (in the USA) is the lowest in recent decades at a time when we are 18 trillion in the hole and growing daily. The lower classes are getting pinched, so why not pinch the upper classes just a little more, not too be mean or vengeful, but to be fair and keep the society in balance, which benefits all, including the wealthy.
Shoot most of the non wealthy are earning <1% on their little savings accts at this point, and I feel that is result of the national debt the country is currently carrying.
Fathertime!
-
First I'm happy you are back to posting!
I agree with you on carried interest, but I am also think capital gains tax at 15% is too low at this point in time. In a more perfect world it could be doable....The 15% rate (in the USA) is the lowest in recent decades at a time when we are 18 trillion in the hole and growing daily. The lower classes are getting pinched, so why not pinch the upper classes just a little more, not too be mean or vengeful, but to be fair and keep the society in balance, which benefits all, including the wealthy.
Shoot most of the non wealthy are earning <1% on their little savings accts at this point, and I feel that is result of the national debt the country is currently carrying.
Fathertime!
We are in the hole because 47% of the population does not work. Raising the minimum wage will not result in them getting a job either.
-
I agree with you on carried interest...
Why do you agree because I am certain you have no clue what it is? It is an esoteric tax topic, applicable to a very few, and even fewer as hedge funds continue to implode.
If eliminated I doubt it would affect total tax revenue significantly.
-
Why do you agree because I am certain you have no clue what it is? It is an esoteric tax topic, applicable to a very few, and even fewer as hedge funds continue to implode.
If eliminated I doubt it would affect total tax revenue significantly.
You are 'certain'? Haha...you seem to be grasping, which is OK with me. I've been paid to do taxes, and need to be aware of lots of things YOU would find 'esoteric'. Try again Mr ' I Know Everything'...
-
I can only laugh when I read how people oppose raising the tax rate.
Capital gains tax in the Netherlands is 30%, and a standard minimal capital growth of 4% is assumed, if your growth is lower you will have to prove it by full assesments of all you assets througout the year.
-
We are in the hole because 47% of the population does not work. Raising the minimum wage will not result in them getting a job either.
Well AC I don't know where you get the 47% of the population is not working, unless you are including senior citizens and young children.
Fathertime!
-
Why don't you start a business and charge huge prices so you can become a gazillionaire, and then contribute your money to charity because your taxes are too low.
Ahem, I do have my own business and been earning my own money from my own business for over a decade. I don't understand your charity statements and how that relates to a minimum wage hike or taxes. Do you see a minimum wage hike as charity?
Why do I imagine you sitting in front of your computer screen, wearing a T-shirt saying Hands Up - Don't Shoot?
I envision you yelling at people to get off your grass and telling everyone you walked to school in loin cloths. Of course this type of dialog doesn't push this conversation into a productive state yet I am willing to continue it with you if you so desire.
-
First I'm happy you are back to posting!
Thanks FT!
I agree with you on carried interest, but I am also think capital gains tax at 15% is too low at this point in time. In a more perfect world it could be doable....The 15% rate (in the USA) is the lowest in recent decades at a time when we are 18 trillion in the hole and growing daily. The lower classes are getting pinched, so why not pinch the upper classes just a little more, not too be mean or vengeful, but to be fair and keep the society in balance, which benefits all, including the wealthy.
Shoot most of the non wealthy are earning <1% on their little savings accts at this point, and I feel that is result of the national debt the country is currently carrying.
Fathertime!
There are more people than just the wealthy taking advantage of that 15% capital gains tax. Making it higher will also hurt those retirees with pensions in the stock market.
-
Why do you agree because I am certain you have no clue what it is? It is an esoteric tax topic, applicable to a very few, and even fewer as hedge funds continue to implode.
If eliminated I doubt it would affect total tax revenue significantly.
So why have it at all? Are you saying we shouldn't eliminate bogus tax breaks like that because it doesn't affect enough people? I don't understand this type of logic to be honest.
I think all special interest tax breaks should be taken away regardless of how many can take advantage of them. That is one of the main problems with our tax system
-
I think all special interest tax breaks should be taken away regardless of how many can take advantage of them. That is one of the main problems with our tax system
Agree. Give me Simpson-Bowles or some other flatter tax with no loopholes.
I am not going to argue "carried tax" with you because I don't know diddly-squat about it.
-
Tax spending NOT INCOME.
An income tax is DUMB DUMB DUMB
fathertime dumb
-
Tax spending NOT INCOME.
An income tax is DUMB DUMB DUMB
fathertime dumb
Wow that is brilliant Einstein, now just try to implement it, and watch the economy shrivel up. The framework of the tax code is going nowhere for the foreseeable future. It can be tweaked and improved from within.
Fathertime!
-
Tax spending NOT INCOME.
An income tax is DUMB DUMB DUMB
fathertime dumb
Still calling people names and acting like a victim when you get it back, eh? Very honorable of you.
-
Still calling people names and acting like a victim when you get it back, eh? Very honorable of you.
(http://www.troll.me/images/worf/you-have-no-honour.jpg)
-
watch the economy shrivel up.
To quote Muzh, evidence please?
Give us examples of countries taxing their way to prosperity . . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WM-EUEZTbM
-
I would be interested in what some of you guys think of Peter Schiff.
Is he a "Chicken Little" or does he have some points?
http://youtu.be/bfx_2gNc7kk
-
To quote Muzh, evidence please?
Give us examples of countries taxing their way to prosperity . . .
That is another stale and meaningless line....A tightening of the taxes is NOT 'taxing their way to prosperity'. Who do you think pays for all those treatments you get for your mental problems (that you have disclosed)? The taxpayers do! Making sure that some of the wealthiest among us at least pay more than 14% of their earnings is NOT unreasonable. It is always of interest when the most needy *you*...fight for something against your own interests... I have yet to read any of your reasoning, aside from silly one-liners.
You can look on the bright side, the IRS has been getting cut as of late...it is an imperfect but necessary department.
http://www.politico.com/story/2014/12/irs-budget-cuts-113651.html (http://www.politico.com/story/2014/12/irs-budget-cuts-113651.html)
Fathertime!
-
You can look on the bright side, the IRS has been getting cut as of late...it is an imperfect but necessary department.
The IRS is out of control and needs to be reined in.
-
The IRS is out of control and needs to be reined in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sti_tuBiv5g
-
The IRS is out of control and needs to be reined in.
Well they certainly screwed up with that stunt they probably pulled against the tea party groups. Aside from that, somebody has to enforce the tax laws and if they don't have the money to do it, then more people figure that out and roll the dice. The amount of phony returns/refunds is disturbing, because that is enriching organized thieves at all the other taxpayer's expense. If you don't mind my asking, how do you mean 'reined in'?
Fathertime!
-
That is another stale and meaningless line....A tightening of the taxes is NOT 'taxing their way to prosperity'.
So you cannot cite one instance of taxing one's way to prosperity. So you agree with me. Good job Baldy.
Who do you think pays for all those treatments you get for your mental problems (that you have disclosed)? The taxpayers do!
Umm, treatment? Who said I had undergone treatment? There is no cost if there is no treatment dummy.
By your own reasoning and admission, you are insulting a mentally disabled person and losing. What does that make you?
Making sure that some of the wealthiest among us at least pay more than 14% of their earnings is NOT unreasonable.
Arguing with you about what is reasonable is like getting a compromise from Barack Obama. Pointless.
It is always of interest when the most needy *you*...fight for something against your own interests... I have yet to read any of your reasoning, aside from silly one-liners.
I am glad you haven't read any of my reasoning. You have the better end of the deal. I have read all of your reasoning and I want that time back.
You can look on the bright side, the IRS has been getting cut as of late...it is an imperfect but necessary department.
http://www.politico.com/story/2014/12/irs-budget-cuts-113651.html (http://www.politico.com/story/2014/12/irs-budget-cuts-113651.html)
Fathertime!
A record year for taxes collected
(http://cnsnews.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/large/images/TAX-RECEIPTS-CHART.jpg)
-
Well they certainly screwed up with that stunt they probably pulled against the tea party groups.
Ok. So I admit. He is not completely stupid, just mostly stupid.
Aside from that, somebody has to enforce the tax laws and if they don't have the money to do it, then more people figure that out and roll the dice.
You don't have to enforce or obey unjust laws.
The amount of phony returns/refunds is disturbing, because that is enriching organized thieves at all the other taxpayer's expense. If you don't mind my asking, how do you mean 'reined in'?
Fathertime!
You mean like these guys?
(http://cdn.phys.org/newman/gfx/news/hires/2013/facebook_like_thumb.jpg)
-
Well they certainly screwed up with that stunt they probably pulled against the tea party groups. Aside from that, somebody has to enforce the tax laws and if they don't have the money to do it, then more people figure that out and roll the dice. The amount of phony returns/refunds is disturbing, because that is enriching organized thieves at all the other taxpayer's expense. If you don't mind my asking, how do you mean 'reined in'?
Fathertime!
I personally think they are getting exactly what they should be getting.
We got the tea party, the emails that were supposedly deleted, the over spending stories popping up over and over again, and I just briefly read a story about how they gave out billions in child tax credits to the wrong people.
Hell, I remember a story that popped up about the IRS seizing bank accounts that trigger some money laundering flags and they wouldn't give the money back after they found out it wasn't money laundering. The IRS only wanted to give them some of the money back. Unbelievable.
Now why should they be able to freeze that account and possibly bankrupt an innocent person without having proof? Then have the audacity to not give the money back or try to keep some of it.
This is an out of control organization. A very powerful one at that. They are acting as if they are not held accountable. No organization should even think they are above accountability.
-
So you cannot cite one instance of taxing one's way to prosperity. So you agree with me. Good job Baldy.
I am not a proponent of 'taxing to prosperity' so of course I did not provide an examples....that was strictly YOUR line.
Umm, treatment? Who said I had undergone treatment? There is no cost if there is no treatment dummy.
By your own reasoning and admission, you are insulting a mentally disabled person and losing. What does that make you?
I don't know if you are 'mentally disabled'...I figured you just had a disorder of some sort based on all you have mumbled about yourself. That is not to say I wouldn't go after your arguments either way, and give you no quarter, the same as you.
That was a good chart you provided because under Obama this year we have to this point had a very good economy, as the stock market has been at an incredible level....we shall see what happens when/if the economy turns. In addition we need to cut more *preferably military spending*, as we continue to run a large deficit...and that 18 trillion we owe is looming.
Fathertime!
-
We got the tea party, the emails that were supposedly deleted, the over spending stories popping up over and over again, and I just briefly read a story about how they gave out billions in child tax credits to the wrong people.
Hell, I remember a story that popped up about the IRS seizing bank accounts that trigger some money laundering flags and they wouldn't give the money back after they found out it wasn't money laundering. The IRS only wanted to give them some of the money back. Unbelievable.
Now why should they be able to freeze that account and possibly bankrupt an innocent person without having proof? Then have the audacity to not give the money back or try to keep some of it.
This is an out of control organization. A very powerful one at that. They are acting as if they are not held accountable. No organization should even think they are above accountability.
I do have to agree with those points...I forgot about that case regarding them seizing those accts incorrectly. Generally it does bother me that our govt. has pressured other govts. to open up their books of our citizens. Although if the very wealthy are hiding their income and avoiding taxation altogether I don't want that to continue. I realize there will be some mistakes along the way, since none of these giant bureaucracies is perfect.
Fathertime!
-
I do have to agree with those points...I forgot about that case regarding them seizing those accts incorrectly. Generally it does bother me that our govt. has pressured other govts. to open up their books of our citizens. Although if the very wealthy are hiding their income and avoiding taxation altogether I don't want that to continue. I realize there will be some mistakes along the way, since none of these giant bureaucracies is perfect.
Fathertime!
I hear ya, a lot of that bothers me also.
The problem is these mistakes can bankrupt people to the point they won't be able to bounce back. As a small business owner, it's easy to imagine waking up and instantly being bankrupt simply because the IRS has seized my account because of some imaginary money laundering flag.
Cashflow is your life blood.
I would prefer some people to get away with avoiding taxes if it meant less innocent people would be negatively affected by their overly aggressive seize and figure it out later tactics.
I don't see them as serving us, I see them as policing us now. I guess we could say the same for Congress and the White House.
-
I am not a proponent of 'taxing to prosperity' so of course I did not provide an examples....that was strictly YOUR line.
I don't know if you are 'mentally disabled'...I figured you just had a disorder of some sort based on all you have mumbled about yourself. That is not to say I wouldn't go after your arguments either way, and give you no quarter, the same as you.
That was a good chart you provided because under Obama this year we have to this point had a very good economy, as the stock market has been at an incredible level....we shall see what happens when/if the economy turns. In addition we need to cut more *preferably military spending*, as we continue to run a large deficit...and that 18 trillion we owe is looming.
Fathertime!
In the words of FP, you got nothing. You are about as effective in substantiating your points as the GOP Senate under McConnell. You bounce around from topic to topic like Bill Clinton at a NAMBLA fundraiser. Still funnier than BBT
-
In the words of FP, you got nothing. You are about as effective in substantiating your points as the GOP Senate under McConnell. You bounce around from topic to topic like Bill Clinton at a NAMBLA fundraiser. Still funnier than BBT
Apparently my opinions have something as you feel the need to not only reply but to go off topic and name call each time! I'd rather discuss the issue myself, but it is an interesting study watching you fall apart, almost every time. :popcorn: [size=78%] [/size]
Fathertime!
-
Hi Kettle!
I made my point. My point is that minimum wage laws always hurt the poor as do income taxes. Oligarchs like Zuckerburg, Obama, Buffet, Koch's, don't pay taxes, yet you want go after the Romney's who LEGALLY pay less than most people. You protest because I have flavored my argument with humor, something you are a failure at.
(http://images.sodahead.com/polls/003131421/2829592563_1628504148_democratic_crybaby_seal_xlarge_xlarge.jpeg)
-
Just out of curiosity, I don't understand what all the beef of minimum wage is. What sort of a threat is it to society that working people are able to earn a wage that they are able to be self sufficient and not require any entitlements?
Maybe the minimum wage should be quite a bit higher and if people don't agree then they can cut their own grass and make their own hamburgers.
-
Only 10% of minimum wage earners are who you describe. Raising the minimum wage hurts workers by further limiting the number of jobs available. No one is forcing these people at gun point to work. Stuff we already covered up thread.
-
Taxing to prosperity? Yep, I would like to propose the Dutch tax model here.
Income tax varies from 35% to 70% based on income. On top of that there is the capital gain tax of 30%, value added tax op 21% and taxes on tobacco and gas that by fax exceed the cost price of the product.
What has this brought?
- State pension that is equal to the minimum wage for all inhabitants
- social security that allows those without means a survivable amount of money
- extensive public transport, good maintance of public infrastructure
- a collective paid health insurance going much further as Obamacare.
Only when some of these things have been "privatised" they start to deteriorate.
Our taxes are high, but our prosperity is as well.
-
Hi Kettle!
I made my point. My point is that minimum wage laws always hurt the poor as do income taxes.
the
If these are your two take away points I believe you are dead wrong on both counts.
1. Minimum wage laws are a good thing, without them you can bet your boots people would be earning less, probably far less.
2. Income taxes currently favor the working poor...the vast majority pay 0 in federal and state income taxes..and actually get the EIC tax credit.
You protest because I have flavored my argument with humor, something you are a failure at.
[/size][size=78%] [/size]
[/size]I do not protest with your efforts at humor (when you make them)...it would be very easy for me to put up silly pictures of babies crying or continue with wise cracks every post if I chose to...[size=78%]
I just figured your efforts were an effort to make yourself happy....you are free to do that obviously....why would I have to protest that?
Fathertime!
-
Just out of curiosity, I don't understand what all the beef of minimum wage is. What sort of a threat is it to society that working people are able to earn a wage that they are able to be self sufficient and not require any entitlements?
Maybe the minimum wage should be quite a bit higher and if people don't agree then they can cut their own grass and make their own hamburgers.
Because many here live under the false impression that the majority asking for an increase in the minimum wage are, well, er..., different, like minorities. Therefore, they are a bunch (47% of them) of moochers to the system.
You have to go back to our short history to understand the demagoguery. First were the micks, then the gumbas, then the negroes, and now the hispanics. All scapegoats to our own social inequalities.
Seriously, ask anyone living in the US who actually mooches the most food stamps and immediately the crowd will roar them Nigrs or them Spics when in reality it is them white trash. Percentage-wise, by a lot.
Fcuked up situation I tell you.
-
the
If these are your two take away points I believe you are dead wrong on both counts.
1. Minimum wage laws are a good thing, without them you can bet your boots people would be earning less, probably far less.
2. Income taxes currently favor the working poor...the vast majority pay 0 in federal and state income taxes..and actually get the EIC tax credit.
[/size][size=78%] [/size]
[/size]I do not protest with your efforts at humor (when you make them)...it would be very easy for me to put up silly pictures of babies crying or continue with wise cracks every post if I chose to...[size=78%]
I just figured your efforts were an effort to make yourself happy....you are free to do that obviously....why would I have to protest that?
Fathertime!
How do income taxes help the working poor?
How do minimum wage laws create jobs?
-
Only 10% of minimum wage earners are who you describe. Raising the minimum wage hurts workers by further limiting the number of jobs available. No one is forcing these people at gun point to work. Stuff we already covered up thread.
LMFAO
Yeah, right.
My son came in yesterday and said he quit his job at UPS and going back to school. I was surprised because after turning blue in the face trying to convince him to take advantage of the GI Bill so he could finish his college education, he convincingly stated the reasons why he would just find a good paying job, like UPS.
Well, yes, UPS offers good pay and benefits.
However, he was confronted with reality. He started gung-ho and was elated he was making so much in over-time. After a few months of 7:30 am til 10:00 pm workdays and 8 til 6 Saturdays he started to feel it. Not to mention that the corporate dudes were demanding more and more time out of him. To make things even more interesting, a recent college graduate about 2 or 3 years older than him was his supervisor and was a real toady about what corporate wants, corporate gets. Last Friday he was looking forward to some well deserved time off to spend with GF when toady demanded he showed up early on Saturday for work. This is after a 65 hour work-week. He plainly told toady to find someone else because he wanted a little rest. "Well, if you don't fucking show up tomorrow, you are fired," while poking his finger on my son's chest. Boy, that's the last thing you want to do to him. After breaking toady's index finger, he calmly told him that he quit. Toady's supervisor called him and asked him what happened. So he told him what an inept supervisor toady is and that he was being overworked.
Guess what? Bye bye.
I'm pretty sure there will be another sap waiting for someone to quit so he will be abused until can't take it any longer and the cycle repeats.
Yep, work hard until you die of exhaustion. Just like the days of Rockefeller, Carnegie and JP Morgan when life was so easy. Work 12 hour workdays for pennies and die on the job just to be replace by another bastard willing to die for pennies a day.
-
Taxing to prosperity? Yep, I would like to propose the Dutch tax model here.
Income tax varies from 35% to 70% based on income. On top of that there is the capital gain tax of 30%, value added tax op 21% and taxes on tobacco and gas that by fax exceed the cost price of the product.
What has this brought?
- State pension that is equal to the minimum wage for all inhabitants
- social security that allows those without means a survivable amount of money
- extensive public transport, good maintance of public infrastructure
- a collective paid health insurance going much further as Obamacare.
Only when some of these things have been "privatised" they start to deteriorate.
Our taxes are high, but our prosperity is as well.
Hey, you forgot the forced (GASP!!!) month-long paid vacation for everyone. :clapping:
-
LMFAO
Yeah, right.
My son came in yesterday and said he quit his job at UPS and going back to school. I was surprised because after turning blue in the face trying to convince him to take advantage of the GI Bill so he could finish his college education, he convincingly stated the reasons why he would just find a good paying job, like UPS.
Well, yes, UPS offers good pay and benefits.
However, he was confronted with reality. He started gung-ho and was elated he was making so much in over-time. After a few months of 7:30 am til 10:00 pm workdays and 8 til 6 Saturdays he started to feel it. Not to mention that the corporate dudes were demanding more and more time out of him. To make things even more interesting, a recent college graduate about 2 or 3 years older than him was his supervisor and was a real toady about what corporate wants, corporate gets. Last Friday he was looking forward to some well deserved time off to spend with GF when toady demanded he showed up early on Saturday for work. This is after a 65 hour work-week. He plainly told toady to find someone else because he wanted a little rest. "Well, if you don't fucking show up tomorrow, you are fired," while poking his finger on my son's chest. Boy, that's the last thing you want to do to him. After breaking toady's index finger, he calmly told him that he quit. Toady's supervisor called him and asked him what happened. So he told him what an inept supervisor toady is and that he was being overworked.
Guess what? Bye bye.
I'm pretty sure there will be another sap waiting for someone to quit so he will be abused until can't take it any longer and the cycle repeats.
Yep, work hard until you die of exhaustion. Just like the days of Rockefeller, Carnegie and JP Morgan when life was so easy. Work 12 hour workdays for pennies and die on the job just to be replace by another bastard willing to die for pennies a day.
What you describe is purely speculative and operates under assumptions of scarcity not optimism.
-
LMFAO
Yeah, right.
My son came in yesterday and said he quit his job at UPS and going back to school. I was surprised because after turning blue in the face trying to convince him to take advantage of the GI Bill so he could finish his college education, he convincingly stated the reasons why he would just find a good paying job, like UPS.
Well, yes, UPS offers good pay and benefits.
However, he was confronted with reality. He started gung-ho and was elated he was making so much in over-time. After a few months of 7:30 am til 10:00 pm workdays and 8 til 6 Saturdays he started to feel it. Not to mention that the corporate dudes were demanding more and more time out of him. To make things even more interesting, a recent college graduate about 2 or 3 years older than him was his supervisor and was a real toady about what corporate wants, corporate gets. Last Friday he was looking forward to some well deserved time off to spend with GF when toady demanded he showed up early on Saturday for work. This is after a 65 hour work-week. He plainly told toady to find someone else because he wanted a little rest. "Well, if you don't fucking show up tomorrow, you are fired," while poking his finger on my son's chest. Boy, that's the last thing you want to do to him. After breaking toady's index finger, he calmly told him that he quit. Toady's supervisor called him and asked him what happened. So he told him what an inept supervisor toady is and that he was being overworked.
Guess what? Bye bye.
I'm pretty sure there will be another sap waiting for someone to quit so he will be abused until can't take it any longer and the cycle repeats.
Yep, work hard until you die of exhaustion. Just like the days of Rockefeller, Carnegie and JP Morgan when life was so easy. Work 12 hour workdays for pennies and die on the job just to be replace by another bastard willing to die for pennies a day.
So by your own admission your son got fired for assaulting his supervisor. It might be interesting to hear the other side of the story.
-
So by your own admission your son got fired for assaulting his supervisor. It might be interesting to hear the other side of the story.
You definitely need reading glasses. Read the part again where I state: ...he calmly told him that he quit.
So what would you suggest? Follow your example?
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/bohica_zps8c07b66e.jpg)
Edit: From the Urban Dictionary
BOHICA
acronym, although pronounced as if it is a single word, for "Bend over! Here it comes again."
Commonly used around the workplace when getting repeatedly fucked by the work center supervisor. Very commonly used within the military, specifically the navy and FFG-22.
Bill Lumburgh asking Peter Gibbons to work on Saturday is a perfect example of getting fucked by the supervisor.
Lumbergh asking Peter to come in on Sunday is even more fucked up. Peter should have yelled "BOHICA!" and walked out of the office.
-
Muzh,
I am a little surprised at your UPS story. UPS always has paid very well and had great benefits. MY sister worked for them for many years and never said anything bad about them.
You indicated you son broke his supervisors finger. If true, he should have been fired! If you were joking, then perhaps not.
I was under the impression that UPS was unionized. IF this is correct, he should have gone to his shop steward and complained about compulsory overtime. As a last resort, he could he could have gone up the ladder above his immediate supervisor and discussed the issue and requested relief.
Something sounds fishy about a company that can fire you for not putting in unreasonable overtime. I have the same issues with my employees. I accommodate them whenever possible, but once in a while it is necessary to work on a Saturday or a 10 hour shift during the week. It would be interesting what the union contract says. Also what your sons relationship with the union steward is.
-
Muzh,
I am a little surprised at your UPS story. UPS always has paid very well and had great benefits. MY sister worked for them for many years and never said anything bad about them.
You indicated you son broke his supervisors finger. If true, he should have been fired! If you were joking, then perhaps not.
I was under the impression that UPS was unionized. IF this is correct, he should have gone to his shop steward and complained about compulsory overtime. As a last resort, he could he could have gone up the ladder above his immediate supervisor and discussed the issue and requested relief.
Something sounds fishy about a company that can fire you for not putting in unreasonable overtime. I have the same issues with my employees. I accommodate them whenever possible, but once in a while it is necessary to work on a Saturday or a 10 hour shift during the week. It would be interesting what the union contract says. Also what your sons relationship with the union steward is.
Cal,
I said that UPS paid him well and he had great benefits. However, that was not the problem.
Yes, they were asking for unreasonable overtime and he has no clue if there is a union there or not.
And I talked to my son about an hour ago. The finger was not broken, just sprained. He said he learned that in training.
Now, imagine one of your favorites from here talking to you and then starts poking you in the chest with his finger.
-
LMFAO
Yeah, right.
My son came in yesterday and said he quit his job at UPS and going back to school. I was surprised because after turning blue in the face trying to convince him to take advantage of the GI Bill so he could finish his college education, he convincingly stated the reasons why he would just find a good paying job, like UPS.
Well, yes, UPS offers good pay and benefits.
However, he was confronted with reality. He started gung-ho and was elated he was making so much in over-time. After a few months of 7:30 am til 10:00 pm workdays and 8 til 6 Saturdays he started to feel it. Not to mention that the corporate dudes were demanding more and more time out of him. To make things even more interesting, a recent college graduate about 2 or 3 years older than him was his supervisor and was a real toady about what corporate wants, corporate gets. Last Friday he was looking forward to some well deserved time off to spend with GF when toady demanded he showed up early on Saturday for work. This is after a 65 hour work-week. He plainly told toady to find someone else because he wanted a little rest. "Well, if you don't fucking show up tomorrow, you are fired," while poking his finger on my son's chest. Boy, that's the last thing you want to do to him. After breaking toady's index finger, he calmly told him that he quit. Toady's supervisor called him and asked him what happened. So he told him what an inept supervisor toady is and that he was being overworked.
Guess what? Bye bye.
Sprained or broken, you already wrote that your son assaulted his supervisor. Having comprehension problems regarding what you just wrote?
Then the next day your son hopes to keep his job by "explaining" what happened to another higher up supervisor. Obviously no private company is going to keep a hothead who assaults a co-worker or supervisor.
As Calmissile just mentioned UPS is one of the better companies to work for, and with a union. It's really not that difficult to turn down too much overtime work, there is a procedure for that. It's also not that difficult to ignore a provocation and make a complaint to the union about an aggressive and abusive supervisor. Had your son been patient the supervisor is the one who may have lost his job. Chances are the supervisor correctly predicted your son to be a hothead and provoked him. That's either a character builder or a bad reference waiting to happen. Surprised you haven't (yet) blamed it on "whitey".
-
Sprained or broken, you already wrote that your son assaulted his supervisor. Having comprehension problems regarding what you just wrote?
Then the next day your son hopes to keep his job by "explaining" what happened to another higher up supervisor. Obviously no private company is going to keep a hothead who assaults a co-worker or supervisor.
As Calmissile just mentioned UPS is one of the better companies to work for, and with a union. It's really not that difficult to turn down too much overtime work, there is a procedure for that. It's also not that difficult to ignore a provocation and make a complaint to the union about an aggressive and abusive supervisor. Had your son been patient the supervisor is the one who may have lost his job. Chances are the supervisor correctly predicted your son to be a hothead and provoked him. That's either a character builder or a bad reference waiting to happen. Surprised you haven't (yet) blamed it on "whitey".
Yep, you like BOHICA.
Can't help you there if you like to bend over.
And why would I blame it on whitey? My son is a blondie.
-
Yep, you like BOHICA.
Can't help you there if you like to bend over.
And why would I blame it on whitey? My son is a blondie.
Making a formal complaint to the Union steward about the aggressive supervisor and officially turning down the overtime is hardly BOHICA. However I empathize with your son because it's difficult to ignore that type of supervisor. Yet that's why they have a chain of command. Nobody said it would always be easy.
However I'm not at all surprised by your answer. Why admit any responsibility when you can deflect?
-
As Calmissile just mentioned UPS is one of the better companies to work for, and with a union. It's really not that difficult to turn down too much overtime work, there is a procedure for that. It's also not that difficult to ignore a provocation and make a complaint to the union about an aggressive and abusive supervisor. Had your son been patient the supervisor is the one who may have lost his job. Chances are the supervisor correctly predicted your son to be a hothead and provoked him. That's either a character builder or a bad reference waiting to happen. Surprised you haven't (yet) blamed it on "whitey".
Not according to a friend that retired from UPS and another driver I had a conversation with. I heard stories similar to what Muzh talked about.
As for the sprained finger, the supervisor shouldn't be getting aggressive with employees by physically touching them. He got what he deserved. Muzh's son is better off not working for that company.
-
Not according to a friend that retired from UPS and another driver I had a conversation with. I heard stories similar to what Muzh talked about.
As for the sprained finger, the supervisor shouldn't be getting aggressive with employees by physically touching them. He got what he deserved. Muzh's son is better off not working for that company.
Absolutely true, which is why he should have bit his tongue and made a formal complaint to both the Union and to his higher ups. He could have even retained an employee rights attorney if need be.
Instead he is unemployed and with a bad reference as well (he said he said explanation is hardly a good reference). It's better to improve companies from the inside out. Better for all.
-
Absolutely true, which is why he should have bit his tongue and made a formal complaint to both the Union and to his higher ups.
Instead he is unemployed and with a bad reference as well (he said he said explanation is hardly a good reference). It's better to improve companies from the inside out. Better for all.
Sure, walking away is best if you can do so. Sometimes it's a matter of muscle reflex.
I remember a friend clowning around and grabbed me by the shirt and I just instinctively grabbed his wrist and put him on the floor. I didn't even think about it, it was just reflex.
If someone wants to touch me in an aggressive manner, I will put him down without second thought. You don't really know what someone will do so why take the chance of them physically hurting you. The minute they physically touch you in a threatening manner they crossed the line and it's up to you to defend yourself.
My friend that retired had to go to a psychologist towards the end of his career there. It was that bad for him and it sure did seem like they pushed him more and more the closer he got to retirement.
-
Sure, walking away is best if you can do so. Sometimes it's a matter of muscle reflex.
I remember a friend clowning around and grabbed me by the shirt and I just instinctively grabbed his wrist and put him on the floor. I didn't even think about it, it was just reflex.
If someone wants to touch me in an aggressive manner, I will put him down without second thought. You don't really know what someone will do so why take the chance of them physically hurting you. The minute they physically touch you in a threatening manner they crossed the line and it's up to you to defend yourself.
Famous last words. It's easier to take a step back before they touch you in the first place. It's also easier to change your tone of voice so they don't raise the conflict. Your response might work at a nightclub but it's a poor response for someone at work.
-
Famous last words. It's easier to take a step back before they touch you in the first place. It's also easier to change your tone of voice so they don't raise the conflict. Your response might work at a nightclub but it's a poor response for someone at work.
You seem to be blaming the victim here. The supervisor is the person in the wrong. Just because you might allow others to walk all over you doesn't mean everyone should. A job where they allow supervisors to do that isn't a job worth having.
-
You seem to be blaming the victim here. The supervisor is the person in the wrong. Just because you might allow others to walk all over you doesn't mean everyone should. A job where they allow supervisors to do that isn't a job worth having.
You're confused. We only got one side of the story. I am not blaming the "victim" and I don't allow anyone to walk all over me. That's only you trying to put words in my mouth. If everyone who felt they were mistreated quit their job nobody would work anywhere and no companies would improve how they treat their employees.
-
You're confused. We only got one side of the story. I am not blaming the "victim" and I don't allow anyone to walk all over me. That's only you trying to put words in my mouth. If everyone who felt they were mistreated quit their job nobody would work anywhere and no companies would improve how they treat their employees.
AC, you seem to want to make more of this story than what was told. Of course we got one side and based on that I am discussing it.
This isn't just being mistreated, this is about being physically threatened. A man poking another man with his finger is a physical threat and should be treated as one. We are not talking about calling someone a name here so don't try to downplay the interaction as it was told.
Yes, you are blaming the victim for taking the threat seriously and responding to it. It sounds like you don't have much experience in physical altercations.
-
AC, you seem to want to make more of this story than what was told. Of course we got one side and based on that I am discussing it.
This isn't just being mistreated, this is about being physically threatened. A man poking another man with his finger is a physical threat and should be treated as one. We are not talking about calling someone a name here so don't try to downplay the interaction as it was told.
The story told was precise. A guy got fired because he responded with physical force to an alleged provocation. Perhaps you and the guy who got fired can get together and whine about it.
Others like me would have made a complaint thru the chain of command. You can misinterpret this any way you want to; you always do.
Thick as a brick comes to mind right now. Go ahead and get the last word if it makes you happy.
-
The story told was precise. A guy got fired because he responded with physical force to an alleged provocation. Perhaps you and the guy who got fired can get together and whine about it.
Others like me would have made a complaint thru the chain of command. You can misinterpret this any way you want to; you always do.
Thick as a brick comes to mind right now. Go ahead and get the last word if it makes you happy.
Ah, I understand now. You would rather someone push you around and beg to keep your job so you can change the company from the inside. I bet that supervisor loves guys like you which is why he was probably surprised one person didn't accept his physical provocation.
Yes, thick as a brick is perfect for you. I honestly can't believe you would allow someone to poke you in the chest just because you told him no.
You obviously feel like you deserve to be treated like that and who am I to disagree. :)
-
Yes, you are blaming the victim for taking the threat seriously and responding to it. It sounds like you don't have much experience in physical altercations.
This from the pantywaist pacifist who is against the USA responding to ISIS terrorists in the Middle East who are decapitating hostages and want a region wide Caliphate.
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
-
This from the pantywaist pacifist who is against the USA responding to ISIS terrorists in the Middle East who are decapitating hostages and want a region wide Caliphate.
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
I see you're a man of your word.
Anyway, it's funny that you mention USA response to sending other men over to battle ISIS when you wouldn't even bother defending yourself when physcially threatened.
You have no problem with fighting when it's someone else. If you're involved, you would walk away and file a report trying to change the bad people through peaceful means.
Maybe you should join the ISIS fight and start giving the bad people reports telling them why they are bad people. Hell, you should join ISIS and change them from within.
-
You have no honor!
-
Dear Muzh,
I put aside our mutual contempt to say, your son forfeited any monies owed to him and will have a hard time living down "I got fired for breaking my boss' finger.". That said, breaking the POG's finger probably gave your son great personal satisfaction. At the end of the day, isn't that what we all want - to be happy at work?
-
As a younger person as Muzh's son must be, I can see him overreacting after getting jabbed in the chest. I know for me, and a lot of others, if another man or for that matter anybody makes contact with the middle of my body in an aggressive manner I react automatically. I've done it even with my kids when I was startled, but I've stopped myself, but the reaction itself is automatic. Why would the supervisor feel comfy doing that to begin with? I can't approve of breaking fingers, but twisting them (and spraining them) is not that far off the chart of reasonableness as an automatic reaction to a momentary perceived threat. IMO.
Fathertime!
-
if another man or for that matter anybody makes contact with the middle of my body . . . not that far off the chart of reasonableness as an automatic reaction to a momentary perceived threat. IMO.
That is assault. Unwanted touching and fighting words, Puerto Rican you don't have a hair on your @$$ if you don't sue this bastard and his company for all that its worth. Stop bit$hing about Bohica and defend your family.
-
Ah, I understand now. You would rather someone push you around and beg to keep your job so you can change the company from the inside. I bet that supervisor loves guys like you which is why he was probably surprised one person didn't accept his physical provocation.
Yes, thick as a brick is perfect for you. I honestly can't believe you would allow someone to poke you in the chest just because you told him no.
You obviously feel like you deserve to be treated like that and who am I to disagree. :)
I don't think he likes BOHICA.
Me thinks he enjoys BOHICA.
-
Guys, no fingers were broken.
It was an instinctive reaction. He was trained to defend himself.
Now, AC is a case by himself in his own world. So I'll leave it like that.
-
AC, you seem to want to make more of this story than what was told. Of course we got one side and based on that I am discussing it.
This isn't just being mistreated, this is about being physically threatened. A man poking another man with his finger is a physical threat and should be treated as one. We are not talking about calling someone a name here so don't try to downplay the interaction as it was told.
Yes, you are blaming the victim for taking the threat seriously and responding to it. It sounds like you don't have much experience in physical altercations.
Exactly.
Not only the grunts are disposable, now you can dispose of them with prejudice.
It is interesting that you will hear people defending these kind of policies. I don't know if it is the lack of decent jobs, conditioning, lack of education or a combination of the above.
-
I love minimum wage and McDonalds. My oldest son has worked at McDonalds and other close to minimum wage jobs. It has helped him understand why higher education is important. If he were making $15 an hour, he may be satisfied where he's at and never progress in life.
Minimum wage helps keep costs low, food prices down, among other items helping all Americans. It also has encouraged many young Americans to get educated and move forward with their lives. If we make it too comfortable for people to make a living without getting an education, America will quickly decline.
Trying to create equality in wages when people aren't equal doesn't work well. Just ask the USSR.
-
Someone comes around poking me in the chest, I'll haul off and whack 'em. You can always get another job. You need to stand up for what you believe in. Good life lesson. Move on.
(I have watched as my children got some tough life lessons. My thoughts in watching these happen is to acknowledge that it happened and tell 'em to move on. You can't dwell on this stuff.)
-
I love minimum wage and McDonalds. My oldest son has worked at McDonalds and other close to minimum wage jobs. It has helped him understand why higher education is important. If he were making $15 an hour, he may be satisfied where he's at and never progress in life.
Minimum wage helps keep costs low, food prices down, among other items helping all Americans. It also has encouraged many young Americans to get educated and move forward with their lives. If we make it too comfortable for people to make a living without getting an education, America will quickly decline.
Trying to create equality in wages when people aren't equal doesn't work well. Just ask the USSR.
Hey billy, a lot of what you said makes sense although there are a lot of people that are going to be working these types of jobs. Remember we shipped many of the decent paying jobs overseas so now we have laborers picking up jobs at McDonalds instead. Not everybody is interested in higher education or are capable of those types of jobs, for one reason or another. For better or worse in a prior generation many of those burger King workers were better taken care of with unionized jobs in the past. It is all of our society so we chooose....
Fathertime!
-
Remember we shipped many of the decent paying jobs overseas so now we have laborers picking up jobs at McDonalds instead.
Much more lower paying jobs are going overseas than well paid jobs. America is still the land of opportunity for people. We can't get enough intelligent people here so we give them visas to study and work. Many of those immigrants homelands suffer from brain drain. They smartest and brightest people leave. Compared to other nations in the world, this is the place to come to succeed yet we talk about how bad we got it.
We wouldn't need smart immigrants if our own population were educated. I understand some people aren't born to be smart but we have to reward those that contribute most to society. If we paid doctors the same we pay people to flip burgers, there would be less incentive for people to spend 8 years of their life studying to become a doctor when they can make the money right now flipping burgers. As we close the gap in wages, we encourage more and more people to switch their career paths and most likely they will choose the easiest path that requires the least amount of work and use of their brain.
Sometimes my oldest son works for me in construction as a laborer. He makes more than minimum wage but less than other labors. It's physical work that is sometimes done in the heat, cold, or rain. He deserves more than what he make at McDonalds but less than what a doctor should make. If McDonalds pay him what I'm paying him, he probably never would be asking me for a summer job to make more. He probably would be dropping out of college.
Not everybody is interested in higher education or are capable of those types of jobs, for one reason or another.
True, but there should be and will always be a minimum wage. Those who aren't motivated or aren't smart shouldn't be making near what those who are motivated and smart are making. Regardless if one isn't smart by choice or by birth, they simply aren't contributing to society as much as those who are. Guys who work for me aren't smart by society's measure but they do hard work and contribute to society by building infrastructure. They should be paid more than guys who flip burgers but less than doctors.
If McDonalds raises their wages to $15 for labor work and I can't find good people because they are leaving the construction industry, I'm going to raise my wages to lure good people in and pass the cost onto you as a homeowner and taxpayer. Your home will cost more. The parks and facilities the government builds will cost more in labor and materials and you will pay more. Wages for everyone will go up across the board. The government will be happy to collect more taxes off higher wages and when everyone shuffles to adjust wages in their industry to keep their qualified workers from leaving, we'll end up where we started, with a wage disparity.
-
Billy you make good arguments and I'm glad we both were able to state a case.
I think 15 is too much for a minimum wage all at once but I've concluded a little higher should happen. I think the disparity has become too great now.
Fathertime!
-
I would like to just make some comments at this point.
1. Is it the general line of thinking now that education/career is just about the money? If so what does that say about the teaching profession?
2. What is wrong with paying someone a decent living wage for an honest days work (whatever the type of work)?
3. There are plenty of examples of countries, which have decent pay for less skilled jobs, where the economies are doing quite well regardless.
4. Where is the honor in holding someones head "underwater" financially speaking just because you can?
-
Billy, thanks a lot for the posts.
It is good to hear from those working in the real world and understanding how wages are determined, etc.
As you said, raising the minimum wage will just set off an upward spiral and, in the end, we will be right back with income disparity which people will continue to complain about.
-
Billy, you said there should and always will be a minimum wage. Please explain
-
Billy, thanks a lot for the posts.
It is good to hear from those working in the real world and understanding how wages are determined, etc.
As you said, raising the minimum wage will just set off an upward spiral and, in the end, we will be right back with income disparity which people will continue to complain about.
:clapping:
-
This isn't just being mistreated, this is about being physically threatened. A man poking another man with his finger is a physical threat and should be treated as one.
Only a lunatic would claim that an aggressive supervisor who gets animated and pokes a guy with his finger to make a point is "physically threatening" you. You must be the type of mentally deranged guy who when his GF or spouse pokes you to make a point you throw her to the ground like you described above.
As far as all this talk of BOHICA I can assure you that after my talk with my union steward and my Lawyer that the supervisor in question might not be working for the company anymore, but at the very least he would never do that again and he would have a permanent written reprimand in his file.
Furthermore this situation shows that some guys have a brain which controls their reactions as opposed to just giving into a Neanderthal response. We also still don't know what the employee actually said to the supervisor and how it was said, which is why I suspect there's more to this story then is being told. It's clearly a way for some to deflect from losing a very good paying job with excellent benefits. Sure that's hard to swallow and you sometimes have to learn a lesson and move on.
-
1. Is it the general line of thinking now that education/career is just about the money? If so what does that say about the teaching profession?
The "love" of money may be the root of all evil but money is not. Money is just a tool we use to buy goods. It's difficult for me to trade construction services with the farmer who grows foods, the doctors who heal me, etc.... Money is used to get us what we need without the hassle of trading services and products we create. The more money we have, the more we can get in life and that is not a bad thing. Women measures money and a man's ability to earn it to judge if the man is capable of supporting a family or giving them a good lifestyle. In my opinion there's nothing wrong if a man chooses a career based on how much he can make whether he wants to earn the right to catch a good woman and have a big family or buy lots of toys. As far as the teaching profession goes, teachers who put out better students, should get paid more.
2. What is wrong with paying someone a decent living wage for an honest days work (whatever the type of work)?
Minimum wage is designed to make sure people don't become slaves. Minimum will never be defined as decent. Even if the minimum wage becomes $15, it's still on the bottom of the totem pole after everybody else gets raises. As wages go up, cost of living goes up. $15 may be decent money today, but not tomorrow. Some governments may move to create wage equality as the USSR did. People made the same money regardless if they were a doctor or cleaning toilets. That didn't work out too well.
3. There are plenty of examples of countries, which have decent pay for less skilled jobs, where the economies are doing quite well regardless.
Just because a country does well doesn't mean higher minimum wage should get the credit. They're economy may be better with a bigger wage disparity which promotes people to advance onto a better job and/or get better educated. Germany and Greece share the same currency but their work ethic is different along with their economies. Germans deserves a better standard. Germans deserve to be paid more and have more in life if they are smarter and work harder. The same should be said for individuals.
America's economy is working well even in a recession. When our economy sneezes, the world catches a cold. Sure other economies are doing well but America should be careful in looking for answers from economies that isn't doing as well as ours. I understand there are some European countries that take from the rich to give to the poor more than we do but there should be a limit as moving towards wage equality will hurt their economy which in turns hurt everybody including those who are at the bottom fighting for wage equality. It may hurt some to hear this but one person who creates a thousands of jobs is more valuable than one employee and they deserve more in life.
4. Where is the honor in holding someones head "underwater" financially speaking just because you can?
There are a few people who would work people as slaves and that is why we have minimum wage laws but we still need wage disparity. Those who work harder, get results, and are smarter deserve more than those who are not and do not. If a guy comes over to your house to cut your grass and you pay him $10 an hour and he works slow and does a lousy job would you pay him $10 an hour to cut your grass the next time? You might offer him what he's worth, $5 an hour or not even hire him at all and nobody can claim you wanting to hold his head underwater just because you can. The truth is he is worth less than someone who does you a good job and works harder.
When people do a lousy job, they will get fired over and over throughout their life. I think most of us know at least one deadbeat and understand their worth. They don't deserve minimum wage, they deserve to be unemployed. After being hungry and learning life the hard way they may get motivated to work harder next time and if their hard work doesn't earn them enough, they can find a job that appreciates their work ethic and talents. There are plenty of well paying jobs out there where companies pay more for good talent. The bad talent and least motivated....they deserve to work at McDonalds and earn minimum wage. Those people exist and because they exist which proves not everybody is equal, we need wage disparity.
I've met some smart, hard working construction workers and asked them why aren't they a foreman, superintendent or project manager since they can utilize their talents better there. The usual answer is that they've been offered the position but turn down the job since the pay raise doesn't match the increase in responsibility. The more we try to equalize everybody's pay, we will see more and more people refusing to advance in life. Lot's of smart people will be content on staying at the bottom.
Billy, you said there should and always will be a minimum wage. Please explain
I explain that somewhat in my response to Glyden but simply put, everybody is not equal and doesn't contribute to society the same way so people deserve different pay. Those who are dumb, lazy, and unmotivated to advance in life should get less pay than their opposites. Those people will always exist so minimum wage should always exist.
-
2. What is wrong with paying someone a decent living wage for an honest days work (whatever the type of work)?
Hi Glyden, I think you bring up valid points. One way we make up for the huge disparity in wages is through the tax code. Through the EIC low income workers get roughly the equivalent of 3 dollars an hour more per hour, if they have dependent children...quite a bit less if not..it is not based on hours worked but on total income...very good and somewhat stealth way to help.
Fathertime!
-
As far as all this talk of BOHICA I can assure you that after my talk with my union steward and my Lawyer that the supervisor in question might not be working for the company anymore, but at the very least he would never do that again and he would have a permanent written reprimand in his file.
Bull SHIT!!!
-
I would like to just make some comments at this point.
1. Is it the general line of thinking now that education/career is just about the money? If so what does that say about the teaching profession?
Unfortunately, it is true. However, I would not blame the teaching profession itself. The blame falls squarely on the parents shoulders. This is what their children know; two parents busting their asses to have their McMansion, 10-60" HDTVs, 3 SUVs, personal powerplant to heat up those cathedral ceilings, etc. However, to damn tired to spend time with their kids so they shove them to the malls as soon as they get home from work.
2. What is wrong with paying someone a decent living wage for an honest days work (whatever the type of work)?
Hush, you communist, you. See Billy's statement and AC's response.
3. There are plenty of examples of countries, which have decent pay for less skilled jobs, where the economies are doing quite well regardless.
Yep. And here many Americans refer to those places as the Socialist Gay States of Europe.
4. Where is the honor in holding someones head "underwater" financially speaking just because you can?
There is none, at least for decent human beings.
-
I would like to just make some comments at this point.
1. Is it the general line of thinking now that education/career is just about the money? If so what does that say about the teaching profession?
2. What is wrong with paying someone a decent living wage for an honest days work (whatever the type of work)?
3. There are plenty of examples of countries, which have decent pay for less skilled jobs, where the economies are doing quite well regardless.
4. Where is the honor in holding someones head "underwater" financially speaking just because you can?
Some are trying to hold on to the past. Minimum wage jobs were typically done by teenagers. They were jobs that were temporary and thus were not intended to sustain a family.
Those days are gone. As Billy pointed out, the jobs that many used to take care of their families have left the country.
It's rather strange to me. You got the same people complaining that not enough people work and then in the same breath the same people are complaining about raising the minimum wage so people can take care of their own.
Then the same people complain about social welfare programs costing too much.
We do have a serious problem here and the minimum wage won't solve it. We have more jobs going overseas and technology taking the place of many other jobs. As a society, we do need to take care of our own. I know others clearly show narcissistic behavior and would let them eat cake as they say.
That isn't good for society.
I think the line, for me, is to take care of everyone but don't make it so there isn't any drive for upward mobility. I would rather have people making more, per hour, and have satisfaction of taking care of their own than to wait for welfare scraps.
The jobs are not coming back. To hold on to the past is a cop out. This is reality even if some don't want to see it or can't see it from their ivory towers.
-
Only a lunatic would claim that an aggressive supervisor who gets animated and pokes a guy with his finger to make a point is "physically threatening" you. You must be the type of mentally deranged guy who when his GF or spouse pokes you to make a point you throw her to the ground like you described above.
As far as all this talk of BOHICA I can assure you that after my talk with my union steward and my Lawyer that the supervisor in question might not be working for the company anymore, but at the very least he would never do that again and he would have a permanent written reprimand in his file.
Furthermore this situation shows that some guys have a brain which controls their reactions as opposed to just giving into a Neanderthal response. We also still don't know what the employee actually said to the supervisor and how it was said, which is why I suspect there's more to this story then is being told. It's clearly a way for some to deflect from losing a very good paying job with excellent benefits. Sure that's hard to swallow and you sometimes have to learn a lesson and move on.
Like I said, it doesn't sound like you have much experience in physical confrontations. By the way, that isn't nor was it intended to be an attack on you. Fights happen fast and they are over fast. To think a man poking you in the chest aggressively isn't a threat shows your ignorance on the topic.
We already proved you're not a man of your word and a coward so let's not continue to recap everything, shall we?
UPS needs to pay more because they are a shit company to work for. Muzh's son has better opportunites ahead of him so this was a kick in the ass he needed.
I went through the same thing. I quite college and moved to another state. I eventually got tired of working from 6am to 10pm and went back to school. Surprisingly how well my grades were after some motivation.
-
Like I said, it doesn't sound like you have much experience in physical confrontations. By the way, that isn't nor was it intended to be an attack on you. Fights happen fast and they are over fast. To think a man poking you in the chest aggressively isn't a threat shows your ignorance on the topic.
The only ignorance being displayed here is the fool who cannot distinguish between an unruly supervisor and a genuine threat. You've already displayed that time and again with your pacifist whining about the USA going to war against ISIS. Yet you would throw someone to the ground based on an inability to engage your brain as to an appropriate response; truly the actions of a Neanderthal.
-
The only ignorance being displayed here is the fool who cannot distinguish between an unruly supervisor and a genuine threat. You've already displayed that time and again with your pacifist whining about the USA going to war against ISIS. Yet you would throw someone to the ground based on an inability to engage your brain as to an appropriate response; truly the actions of a Neanderthal.
So, have you always wanted other people to fight your battles or was this cowardice attained by being bullied in grade school?
-
So, have you always wanted other people to fight your battles or was this cowardice attained by being bullied in grade school?
I served in the military dumba$$. Here, this might help you with your problem:
http://www.brainsupplementreviews.org/
-
I served in the military dumba$$. Here, this might help you with your problem:
http://www.brainsupplementreviews.org/ (http://www.brainsupplementreviews.org/)
Let me guess, you pushed papers around.
-
I served in the military dumba$$. Here, this might help you with your problem:
http://www.brainsupplementreviews.org/
Thank you for your service.
-
Let me guess, you pushed papers around.
:ROFL:
Most probably.
-
Let me guess, you pushed papers around.
Did you serve?
-
Thank you for your service.
:clapping:
-
Did you serve?
None of the men, in my family, needed to talk about their service in order to try and garnish respect or admiration. If you can't get those from being the man you are, you certainly won't get it by enlisting.
-
None of the men, in my family, needed to talk about their service in order to try and garnish respect or admiration. If you can't get those from being the man you are, you certainly won't get it by enlisting.
I chuckle everytime LT brings up what he reports to be his service in the armed forces. In his case and pretty much only his case on this website, it is a crutch as he seems to be lacking in other areas. Not impressive. There are issues and ideas to discuss.
Fathertime!
-
The only ignorance being displayed here is the fool who cannot distinguish between an unruly supervisor and a genuine threat. You've already displayed that time and again with your pacifist whining about the USA going to war against ISIS. Yet you would throw someone to the ground based on an inability to engage your brain as to an appropriate response; truly the actions of a Neanderthal.
The supervisor got his fingers bent...that kind of thing can happen when you lay your hands on a work-weary young man during a heated argument. It could have been much worse. Granted we weren't there and don't know how the entire exchange went, but keep your hands to yourself, or all bets are off.
Fathertime!
-
The supervisor got his fingers bent...that kind of thing can happen when you lay your hands on a work-weary young man during a heated argument. It could have been much worse. Granted we weren't there and don't know how the entire exchange went, but keep your hands to yourself, or all bets are off.
Fathertime!
Indeed. I think Muzh's son reacted without thinking. That is because of his training. It ends up becoming a reflex.
I have had a few guys sucker punch me to know not to take a chance when someone steps up to you. It's surprising how much damage one punch or falling down the wrong way can do to you.
-
I chuckle everytime LT brings up what he reports to be his service in the armed forces. In his case and pretty much only his case on this website, it is a crutch as he seems to be lacking in other areas. Not impressive. There are issues and ideas to discuss.
Fathertime!
Good one FP, I mean FT.
-
None of the men, in my family, needed to talk about their service in order to try and garnish respect or admiration. If you can't get those from being the man you are, you certainly won't get it by enlisting.
You slander a man's military service but you yourself didn't serve. Is that the kids d of manhood lessons you learned from the men in your family? Is that what you teach to your men in your family?
-
I have had a few guys sucker punch me to know not to take a chance when someone steps up to you. It's surprising how much damage one punch or falling down the wrong way can do to you.
No doubt you've had a lot of experience at getting your ass kicked. What a surprise that this would happen to a fool with a big mouth... :rolleyes:
-
You slander a man's military service but you yourself didn't serve. Is that the kids d of manhood lessons you learned from the men in your family? Is that what you teach to your men in your family?
We know that any imbecile can enlist and you're a shining example of that. :) It's a sad sight to see guys like you try and gain respect by telling everyone that will listen about your military service. Some people just don't need to do that.
-
No doubt you've had a lot of experience at getting your ass kicked. What a surprise that this would happen to a fool with a big mouth... :rolleyes:
Where I come from, there is no one to run and hide behind when someone steps up to you. You wouldn't last long.
-
Where I come from, there is no one to run and hide behind when someone steps up to you. You wouldn't last long.
More internet BS from pantywaist pacifist boy. Where you come from is why you run your mouth on the internet. Real men who know how to fight don't feel a need to talk about it here.
-
More internet BS from pantywaist pacifist boy. Where you come from is why you run your mouth on the internet. Real men who know how to fight don't feel a need to talk about it here.
haha You're getting more and more desperate. First you had to try and use military service and now this. You should file a report with the Mod here and tell him you're getting bullied. Be a real man and file that report! :P
-
haha You're getting more and more desperate. First you had to try and use military service and now this. You should file a report with the Mod here and tell him you're getting bullied. Be a real man and file that report! :P
Tell us again how many times you got sucker punched and how much damage it did when you fell down!
:ROFL:
-
Tell us again how many times you got sucker punched and how much damage it did when you fell down!
:ROFL:
So I was right, you never been in a real fight which is why you're asking me how it went.
-
So I was right, you never been in a real fight which is why you're asking me how it went.
Wrong again dumba$$. Unlike you I've never lost a real fight. We can tell from your brain damage that it's happened often too you.
-
Wrong again dumba$$. Unlike you I've never lost a real fight. We can tell from your brain damage that it's happened often too you.
You can't lose something you never got into. Filing reports isn't fighting man. haha You're hilarious.
-
Most every young man must lose a fistfight here and there.....usually the most important thing was to show up and not wuss out or let yourself get pushed around. Now I await the "Schoolyard bully" silliness when that comment gets related to Ukraine, but I feel that is apples to oranges!
Fathertime!
-
We know that any imbecile can enlist and you're a shining example of that. :) It's a sad sight to see guys like you try and gain respect by telling everyone that will listen about your military service. Some people just don't need to do that.
good answer. thx
-
Most every young man must lose a fistfight here and there.....usually the most important thing was to show up and not wuss out or let yourself get pushed around. Now I await the "Schoolyard bully" silliness when that comment gets related to Ukraine, but I feel that is apples to oranges!
Fathertime!
What do you mean?
-
Here is some interesting reading about the minimum wage debate.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesleadershipforum/2014/07/01/why-companies-that-pay-above-the-minimum-wage-come-out-ahead/
"I studied four retail chains that manage to do this: Costco, Trader Joes, QuikTrip (a U.S. chain of convenience stores with gas stations), and Mercadona (Spains largest supermarket chain). They offer their employees much better jobs than their competitors, all the while keeping their prices low and performing well in all the ways that matter to any business. They have high productivity, great customer service, healthy growth, and excellent returns to their investors. They compete head-on with companies that spend far less on their employees, and they win.
When I analyzed these four companies, I found that despite all their differences, they had one element in common: They all make a set of smart choices that allow them to achieve the combination of good jobs, low prices, and great results. These companies all follow what I call the good jobs strategy. It has two components.
First, these companies consider their workforce not as a cost to be minimized but as a strategic asset. They invest in their employees with the expectation that they will get even more back in terms of labor productivity, customer service, cost-cutting, innovation, and flexibility during difficult times. Most businesses consider their high-level managers and skilled professionals to be strategic assets. But these companies see their front-line people that way, too.
Second, these companies make smart operational choices that enable their employees to be more productive and motivated and play a much bigger role in driving sales and reducing costs than in most retail chains. Good design in operations is the secret ingredient that makes the good jobs strategy work.
This combination of investment in people and operations works so well because the retail front line is a much more complex environment than people think. Take a supermarket, a setting full of bad jobs. In a typical supermarket, employees manage around 40,000 products. They serve more than 2,000 customers a day, who arrive at different times and want different things. They manage over a hundred sales promotions per week. There is a lot going on, and there is a lot that can be done more productively and profitably by workers who are motivated, proud of their work, and not always in too much of a rush. Of course, there is also a lot that can go wrong if workers are not trained, not motivated, or just too few in number. Wal-Mart executives are reported to have said that improving shelving alone could be a $3 billion opportunity."
-
Good Points in the article Glyden.
We wind up paying/supplementing people regardless, whether it be through the tax code, welfare, Obamacare, etc etc....
Fathertime!
-
Here is some interesting reading about the minimum wage debate.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesleadershipforum/2014/07/01/why-companies-that-pay-above-the-minimum-wage-come-out-ahead/
"I studied four retail chains that manage to do this: Costco, Trader Joes, QuikTrip (a U.S. chain of convenience stores with gas stations), and Mercadona (Spains largest supermarket chain). They offer their employees much better jobs than their competitors, all the while keeping their prices low and performing well in all the ways that matter to any business. They have high productivity, great customer service, healthy growth, and excellent returns to their investors. They compete head-on with companies that spend far less on their employees, and they win.
When I analyzed these four companies, I found that despite all their differences, they had one element in common: They all make a set of smart choices that allow them to achieve the combination of good jobs, low prices, and great results. These companies all follow what I call the good jobs strategy. It has two components.
First, these companies consider their workforce not as a cost to be minimized but as a strategic asset. They invest in their employees with the expectation that they will get even more back in terms of labor productivity, customer service, cost-cutting, innovation, and flexibility during difficult times. Most businesses consider their high-level managers and skilled professionals to be strategic assets. But these companies see their front-line people that way, too.
Second, these companies make smart operational choices that enable their employees to be more productive and motivated and play a much bigger role in driving sales and reducing costs than in most retail chains. Good design in operations is the secret ingredient that makes the good jobs strategy work.
This combination of investment in people and operations works so well because the retail front line is a much more complex environment than people think. Take a supermarket, a setting full of bad jobs. In a typical supermarket, employees manage around 40,000 products. They serve more than 2,000 customers a day, who arrive at different times and want different things. They manage over a hundred sales promotions per week. There is a lot going on, and there is a lot that can be done more productively and profitably by workers who are motivated, proud of their work, and not always in too much of a rush. Of course, there is also a lot that can go wrong if workers are not trained, not motivated, or just too few in number. Wal-Mart executives are reported to have said that improving shelving alone could be a $3 billion opportunity."
Do you live in America?
-
Real men who know how to fight don't feel a need to talk about it here.
Then why don't you just STFU and stop bragging about what a man you are? Having second thoughts about that?
-
Do you live in America?
Step away from the keyboard and take your pills.
-
Step away from the keyboard and take your pills.
Step away from the keyboard and jump off a cliff.
-
Step away from the keyboard and jump off a cliff.
Who knows, 2016 is going to be an even more awesome year than 2014 was. 8)
-
We will see! It depends on how well the GOP does in opposing Obama. They have had years to practice.
One thing is clear Mr. Obama and his party had years to deliver on their promises of peace and prosperity. Even if they nominate Pocahontas, the American people are weary of their solutions. They always make the lives of the less fortunate worse off.
There is absolutely no need for a minimum wage law. It is worthless and unenforceable. It pu wishes the people it is supposed to help. It is an inflationary force on the market and a job killer. And the people who support these hikes know it. They just hate this country.
-
We will see! It depends on how well the GOP does in opposing Obama. They have had years to practice.
One thing is clear Mr. Obama and his party had years to deliver on their promises of peace and prosperity. Even if they nominate Pocahontas, the American people are weary of their solutions. They always make the lives of the less fortunate worse off.
There is absolutely no need for a minimum wage law. It is worthless and unenforceable. It pu wishes the people it is supposed to help. It is an inflationary force on the market and a job killer. And the people who support these hikes know it. They just hate this country.
Indeed a minimum wage is unneeded. Just find people who eat less so they do work for less as well.
-
There is absolutely no need for a minimum wage law. It is worthless and unenforceable.
I think the minimum wage law IS enforced pretty well. Pretty much all the big companies abide by it here in the states. I'm sure there are SOME exceptions but that is far from common practice. As to it's value, if not for minimum wage I believe the people with least ability to fight and organize for themselves would be the most abused. Paying a [size=78%]minimum wage is the cost of doing business here in the USA.[/size][/size][size=78%] [/size][/size]
It is an inflationary force on the market and a job killer.
[/size]
Although I know govt inflation statistics are cherry-picked and somewhat cooked, From personal experience it seems inflation is and has been relatively tame for quite some time. Many of the essentials can still be had for cheap enough. Two areas where prices are inflating are college costs, and health care. Lots of other things are going down in price, including many things related to computers/technology and now oil related products!
There is absolutely no need for a minimum wage law. It is worthless and unenforceable. It pu wishes the people it is supposed to help. It is an inflationary force on the market and a job killer. And the people who support these hikes know it. They just hate this country.
I see you remain on theme! So now if people believe the minimum wage is a good thing, they hate the country. Very stellar logic! :ROFL:
Fathertime!
-
http://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesleadershipforum/2014/07/01/why-companies-that-pay-above-the-minimum-wage-come-out-ahead/
"I studied four retail chains that manage to do this: Costco, Trader Joes, QuikTrip (a U.S. chain of convenience stores with gas stations), and Mercadona (Spains largest supermarket chain).
Let's say those 4 companies represent the top 1% of the retail chains and they attract the top 1% the available retail employees available. Let's say the bottom 1% of retail companies who have the bottom 1% of the available retail employees available working for them now pay their employees the same or more wages and benefits as the top 1%, their employees do not all of a sudden become the top one percent.
Better wages can motivate employees but it doesn't make the employee. Remember the scenario I mentioned where you pay a guy $10 an hour to cut your grass and he works slow and does a bad job? You may pay him $5 an hour the next time you hire him or not hire him at all. You will pay him what he's worth. You will not do what that article suggests and pay him more such as $30 an hour to encourage him to perform like the top 1% of landscapers. You want a better job done, you find a better landscaper and pay him more, not pay a bad landscaper more to get better work.
If a 50 yo man is making minimum wage at McDonalds, I don't feel sorry for him. He's had many opportunities to advance in his life but chose not to or employers felt he isn't worth keeping around due to his work ethic, lack of responsibility or addictions. Rewarding him with higher wages is not the answer. There are plenty of decent jobs are out there and available. One needs to go find them and earn the right to work them.
I'm happy Costco, Trader Joe's, QuikTrip, and Mercadona are taking very good care of their employees. Only the finest employees in retail deserve to work there but the finest employees may represent the top 10%, not everybody so the other 90% do not deserve what the top 10% is getting.
-
Let's say those 4 companies represent the top 1% of the retail chains and they attract the top 1% the available retail employees available. Let's say the bottom 1% of retail companies who have the bottom 1% of the available retail employees available working for them now pay their employees the same or more wages and benefits as the top 1%, their employees do not all of a sudden become the top one percent.
Better wages can motivate employees but it doesn't make the employee. Remember the scenario I mentioned where you pay a guy $10 an hour to cut your grass and he works slow and does a bad job? You may pay him $5 an hour the next time you hire him or not hire him at all. You will pay him what he's worth. You will not do what that article suggests and pay him more such as $30 an hour to encourage him to perform like the top 1% of landscapers. You want a better job done, you find a better landscaper and pay him more, not pay a bad landscaper more to get better work.
If a 50 yo man is making minimum wage at McDonalds, I don't feel sorry for him. He's had many opportunities to advance in his life but chose not to or employers felt he isn't worth keeping around due to his work ethic, lack of responsibility or addictions. Rewarding him with higher wages is not the answer. There are plenty of decent jobs are out there and available. One needs to go find them and earn the right to work them.
I'm happy Costco, Trader Joe's, QuikTrip, and Mercadona are taking very good care of their employees. Only the finest employees in retail deserve to work there but the finest employees may represent the top 10%, not everybody so the other 90% do not deserve what the top 10% is getting.
Not only is UPS had a reputation of a great company to work for (according to my family that worked there), let's remember the examples set by the companies in Silicon Valley. In order to attract the best and brightest they constructed campuses that were the envy everywhere. Large, great cafeterias, gyms, day care facilities, and fantastic wages. A young lad that was the son of a girlfriend, that I mentored, started in a small software company in Santa Barbara, then went to Apple, then Adobe. He now owns his own successful software company and has become a millionaire. I don't think he ever finished college and had little financial support from his mother in his teenage years.
Furthermore, he never had a chip on his shoulder or whined about not getting handouts from society. His hard work and motivation payed off. I am proud to have mentored him and provided some support to his computer hobby when he was a teenager. My early teenage life much parroted his and I learned that hard work and motivation is the key to success.
A person that receives everything free, without hard work and effort does not create the drive and motivation that creates great minds and entrepreneurs. We have great examples of those failures in the USA, when mama and papa spend their retirement money to put their kids through basket-weaving classes at the university and the graduates cannot find a worthwhile job or even know how to balance their checkbook. Of course they are experts at solving the worlds problems such as human rights, global warming, saving the whales, etc.
Socialistic societies that try to keep everyone equal (in standard of living) seem to never provide the required motivation for workers to excel. Nevertheless, it's a great 'feel good' argument for some that would be jealous and envious of others that worked harder to get ahead.
Of course, in the real world there are many that are content with punching a time clock and going home without having a stressful day at work. There is nothing wrong with that. Their families may be better off for it. My issue is that in our current times we are being bombarded with political correctness that pushes for the unfairness of anyone that works harder or longer hours benefiting from their labor. This idea of government policies dictating that all must be nearly equal is foreign to Americans until the past 30 or so years since Johnson instituted the "Great Society" (welfare state) programs. I can't really say things have gotten better under our pseudo-socialism.
-
They have gotten worse - duh
-
Setting a minumum wage has nothing to do with job opportunities, performance or making everyone equal.
It simply means that the minimal amount an employee makes is enough to stay alive and support basic needs.
If a 50 year old man is working at McDonalds, he should at least not need to find more than that job to pay his bills and feed his family. With 40 hours of work a week, even the lowest paid jobs should support a family. That does not mean living in luxury, but just being able to pay all bills without needing to work double hours.
It surprises me that a society which claims to have the largest eonomy can not even provide such a guarantee for its citizens.
-
You pay for it then. Stop telling us what to do with our money.
-
You pay for it then. Stop telling us what to do with our money.
Yeah starve your own countrymen so that you can be greedy.
-
Setting a minumum wage has nothing to do with job opportunities, performance or making everyone equal.
It simply means that the minimal amount an employee makes is enough to stay alive and support basic needs.
If a 50 year old man is working at McDonalds, he should at least not need to find more than that job to pay his bills and feed his family. With 40 hours of work a week, even the lowest paid jobs should support a family. That does not mean living in luxury, but just being able to pay all bills without needing to work double hours.
It surprises me that a society which claims to have the largest eonomy can not even provide such a guarantee for its citizens.
Shadow, you are arguing with people who think minimum wage earners are asking for something free. Then they go to talk about working hard and working long hours is foreign to those minimum wage earners.
I took a couple of years off of college and worked full time. I basically worked two jobs from 6am to 10pm earning slightly above minimum wage. I was single and didn't have a family to support so I can only imagine what it would have been like if I did have a family.
Some of these guys haven't got a clue as to what working hard really is. Yet they got on their high horses and think people who want to earn a decent wage for the hours they put in are asking for charity.
Sure, all those minimum wage earners should all just go out and start a software company. lol Too damn funny.
This is a time where having a bachelor degree is pretty much worthless unless attained in a small number of fields. Yet college prices are through the roof.
People are not retiring like they did in the past. Many older people are needing to continue working instead of enjoying their golden years. That means the jobs available are even less.
Well hell, we should take this a step further if we are talking drains on our society. I think being fat is a drain on our society. It increases costs substantially. These fatties also want companies to accommodate their gluttony by offering bigger seats and more room for the bulk.
I say we should do something about them as well.
-
Setting a minumum wage has nothing to do with job opportunities, performance or making everyone equal.
It simply means that the minimal amount an employee makes is enough to stay alive and support basic needs.
If a 50 year old man is working at McDonalds, he should at least not need to find more than that job to pay his bills and feed his family. With 40 hours of work a week, even the lowest paid jobs should support a family. That does not mean living in luxury, but just being able to pay all bills without needing to work double hours.
It surprises me that a society which claims to have the largest eonomy can not even provide such a guarantee for its citizens.
Oh my, as usual a complete lack of understanding of the American economic system. There is a reason the US has an economy the size of which you claim. Minimum wage jobs were never intended as a job to raise a family. They are used to supplement your income or for people who have no desire in life and just want to squeak by. Do some research.
Business in the US is a dog eat dog world. It is competitive beyond your imagination. Most people who decide to take the plunge into starting a business understand this. The desire burns red in some people. They understand the way the system works.
I have a question for you if would be so kind to consider it for your consumption.
If you owned a business and the government passed a law that you must pay your employees $15 dollars an hour. This increases your daily expenses by 25%. What would you do as the owner? Raise your prices? Cut employee hours? Eliminate employees? Borrow money to cover the extra expenses? Borrow money to try and grow the business to create more revenue? Try and make it until the checks start bouncing? Sell to a larger company if possible? Start crying to the government to reverse the law?
-
The Minimum Wage discussion is never one that interested me. All of my people make more than minimum wage, and more than a proposed minimum wage. However, the idea of increasing minimum wage by almost 40% seems rather ludicrous to me. The US government has more political acumen than to do such a thing. Instead, increase, at best, maybe a dollar an hour, etc. Then revisit in the future. We're not trying to make a socialist society, just trying to keep a minimum wage tied to the cost of living.
-
Oh my, as usual a complete lack of understanding of the American economic system. There is a reason the US has an economy the size of which you claim. Minimum wage jobs were never intended as a job to raise a family. They are used to supplement your income or for people who have no desire in life and just want to squeak by. Do some research.
Since you have done your research, you can surely point us to all of these jobs people can get to raise their families. As far as I have read, most of the jobs being added now are mainly part time work.
Business in the US is a dog eat dog world. It is competitive beyond your imagination. Most people who decide to take the plunge into starting a business understand this. The desire burns red in some people. They understand the way the system works.
Do you really think the US is more dog eat dog than the rest of the world?
I have a question for you if would be so kind to consider it for your consumption.
If you owned a business and the government passed a law that you must pay your employees $15 dollars an hour. This increases your daily expenses by 25%. What would you do as the owner? Raise your prices? Cut employee hours? Eliminate employees? Borrow money to cover the extra expenses? Borrow money to try and grow the business to create more revenue? Try and make it until the checks start bouncing? Sell to a larger company if possible? Start crying to the government to reverse the law?
Straw man, what if arguments are useless.
-
You pay for it then. Stop telling us what to do with our money.
Shadow, this summarizes the mentality of many on the right.
I got mine, fcuk you.
-
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/07/03/3456393/minimum-wage-state-increase-employment/ (http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/07/03/3456393/minimum-wage-state-increase-employment/)
Think a higher minimum wage is a job killer? Think again: The states that raised their minimum wages on January 1 have seen higher employment growth (http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/cepr-blog/2014-job-creation-in-states-that-raised-the-minimum-wage) since then than the states that kept theirs at the same rate.
The minimum wage went up in 13 states Arizona, Connecticut, Colorado, Florida, Missouri, Montana, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Washington either thanks to automatic increases in line with inflation or new legislation, as Ben Wolcott reports in his analysis at the Center for Economic and Policy Research. The average change in employment for those states over the first five months of the year as compared with the last five of 2013 is .99 percent, while the average for all remaining states is .68 percent. Digging deeper, all but one of those states are experiencing increases in employment, and nine of them have seen growth above the median rate.
(http://d35brb9zkkbdsd.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/wolcott-2014-06-30_494.jpg)
-
Shadow, this summarizes the mentality of many on the right.
I got mine, fcuk you.
No, hey I can be socialist, atheist.
-
No, hey I can be socialist, atheist. [edited by Anonmod]
Hmm, man of god.
-
Back on topic. I found poster BillyB's arguments to be the best concerning problems with raising the minimum wage too high. Why should anyone bust their hump and try to get ahead when they can coast?
-
Oh my, as usual a complete lack of understanding of the American economic system. There is a reason the US has an economy the size of which you claim. Minimum wage jobs were never intended as a job to raise a family. They are used to supplement your income or for people who have no desire in life and just want to squeak by. Do some research.
Business in the US is a dog eat dog world. It is competitive beyond your imagination. Most people who decide to take the plunge into starting a business understand this. The desire burns red in some people. They understand the way the system works.
I have a question for you if would be so kind to consider it for your consumption.
If you owned a business and the government passed a law that you must pay your employees $15 dollars an hour. This increases your daily expenses by 25%. What would you do as the owner? Raise your prices? Cut employee hours? Eliminate employees? Borrow money to cover the extra expenses? Borrow money to try and grow the business to create more revenue? Try and make it until the checks start bouncing? Sell to a larger company if possible? Start crying to the government to reverse the law?
You live in a capitalist society. That means if you can not pay your workers a salary they can live on and stay in business, you fold.
-
I see nothing unreasonable about an increase in minimum wage. These people are working! The jobs I did as a high schooler, dishwasher and busboy, are now sometimes being filled by adults, because that is the best they can do. I was a paperboy as a child, those days are gone, for those that still get papers it is almost always an adult that is delivers them. If people doing these jobs don't have enough to live on, then bad things can happen. If minimum wage is to remain low, then I'm glad there is a strong welfare system in place because too many people can fall through the crack, and that is not good for society as a whole. This has nothing to do with socialism, which is a less-preferred system for me personally. I've read how well our society is doing as a whole, so kicking down to those that work hardest is a good thing!
Fathertime!
-
Not only is UPS had a reputation of a great company to work for (according to my family that worked there), .
My close buddy is an executive at UPS, I have had the opportunity to work for them if I wanted, but I don't need to so I don't. The reality is my buddy gets paid well....over 200K a year (during good years)....does he work hard? HARDLY! He often is 'working from home', or working from the golf course. He biggest skill is that he is a very good people-person. This year has been a down year for him, only 150K...but still considering how easy his job is, he is getting a lot of money. It is not always the hardest workers that are getting paid the most, it is sometimes the guys that can mingle and relate with other decision makers. He feels UPS is a GREAT company to work for, and of course I don't blame him, but the reality for others is that it is backbreaking!
Fathertime!
-
I see nothing unreasonable about an increase in minimum wage. These people are working! The jobs I did as a high schooler, dishwasher and busboy, are now sometimes being filled by adults, because that is the best they can do. I was a paperboy as a child, those days are gone, for those that still get papers it is almost always an adult that is delivers them.
Because there are approximately 25 million illegal aliens in this country. That's why those jobs are no longer done by teenagers. Those aliens are the number one reason that wages have been suppressed; and they are no benefit to our country. It costs far more in benefits for each and every one of them to be here then they pay in taxes, and they send a large portion of their wages back to Mexico. Stop the illegal amnesties, stop the vote buying power for the Democrats, and you will see both wages and standard of living for legal American rise again.
-
Because there are approximately 25 million illegal aliens in this country. That's why those jobs are no longer done by teenagers. Those aliens are the number one reason that wages have been suppressed; and they are no benefit to our country. It costs far more in benefits for each and every one of them to be here then they pay in taxes, and they send a large portion of their wages back to Mexico. Stop the illegal amnesties, stop their vote buying power for the Democrats, and you will see both wages and standard of living for legal American rise again.
Well AC the vast majority of people that came here illegally are here to say. I thought we should have made efforts to close off the flow a decade or more ago, but it did not happen. One thing about keeping our economy growing is that we seem to need a growing population base to do that. A lot of those adult illegals are helping elders in their final years,(and other necessary jobs a kid wouldn't do) so it is not all bad.
All in all, I'd like to see far fewer illegals coming, but the ones that are here...I'm sorry to say but at this point a lot of them need to go through the steps to be legalized, at least to some extent...so we can hopefully move on and try to solve the issue going forward.
Fathertime!
-
My close buddy is an executive at UPS, I have had the opportunity to work for them if I wanted, but I don't need to so I don't. The reality is my buddy gets paid well....over 200K a year (during good years)....does he work hard? HARDLY! He often is 'working from home', or working from the golf course. He biggest skill is that he is a very good people-person. This year has been a down year for him, only 150K...but still considering how easy his job is, he is getting a lot of money. It is not always the hardest workers that are getting paid the most, it is sometimes the guys that can mingle and relate with other decision makers. He feels UPS is a GREAT company to work for, and of course I don't blame him, but the reality for others is that it is backbreaking!
Or depending on who is working for you, fingerbreaking. :rolleyes:
-
Well AC the vast majority of people that came here illegally are here to say. I thought we should have made efforts to close off the flow a decade or more ago, but it did not happen. One thing about keeping our economy growing is that we seem to need a growing population base to do that. A lot of those adult illegals are helping elders in their final years,(and other necessary jobs a kid wouldn't do) so it is not all bad.
All in all, I'd like to see far fewer illegals coming, but the ones that are here...I'm sorry to say but at this point a lot of them need to go through the steps to be legalized, at least to some extent...so we can hopefully move on and try to solve the issue going forward.
Sounds like a losers speech to me; like so many other Politicians who give speeches. We haven't had a President with backbone since Ike. Here is what he did when the problem got out of hand:
excerpt
According to the Handbook of Texas Online, published by the University of Texas at Austin and the Texas State Historical Association, this illegal workforce had a severe impact on the wages of ordinary working Americans. The Handbook Online reports that a study by the President's Commission on Migratory Labor in Texas in 1950 found that cotton growers in the Rio Grande Valley, where most illegal aliens in Texas worked, paid wages that were "approximately half" the farm wages paid elsewhere in the state.
Profits from illegal labor led to the kind of corruption that apparently worried Eisenhower. Joseph White, a retired 21-year veteran of the Border Patrol, says that in the early 1950s, some senior US officials overseeing immigration enforcement "had friends among the ranchers," and agents "did not dare" arrest their illegal workers.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0706/p09s01-coop.html
-
Sounds like a losers speech to me; like so many other Politicians who give speeches. We haven't had a President with backbone since Ike. Here is what he did when the problem got out of hand:
excerpt
According to the Handbook of Texas Online, published by the University of Texas at Austin and the Texas State Historical Association, this illegal workforce had a severe impact on the wages of ordinary working Americans. The Handbook Online reports that a study by the President's Commission on Migratory Labor in Texas in 1950 found that cotton growers in the Rio Grande Valley, where most illegal aliens in Texas worked, paid wages that were "approximately half" the farm wages paid elsewhere in the state.
Profits from illegal labor led to the kind of corruption that apparently worried Eisenhower. Joseph White, a retired 21-year veteran of the Border Patrol, says that in the early 1950s, some senior US officials overseeing immigration enforcement "had friends among the ranchers," and agents "did not dare" arrest their illegal workers.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0706/p09s01-coop.html (http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0706/p09s01-coop.html)
Well let's here your winner's speech then! How do we uproot 25 million people and families and what for?
Fathertime!
-
My two cents worth are that the problem isn't the minimum wage being too low. It is that our educational and social systems have failed us. We have too many Americans who are incapable of doing much other than washing floors and flipping burgers.
The cold hard reality is that employers will pay whatever they have to to get the job done. If it is picking cotton and they can get illegals to do it for 5 bucks an hour and if they will work their butts off for that then that is what they will hire. If they have to pay $ 10.00 to get the job done they will do that and likewise for $ 15.00. Of course if they have to pay $ 15.00 they may have to raise prices or may go out of business and be replaced by a farmer in Mexico who only has to pay 2 bucks an hour for his wages.
The problem isn't a low minimum wage it is that too many people don't have the skills to do jobs that pay more. One of the other problems with increasing the minimum wage is that those who have worked a while and are making more will also want an increase to keep the percentages in line with where they are now. Lets say for example that a company starts new workers at $ 9.00 an hour and for every year of service it goes up 50 cents. So someone working for 6-8 years is making $ 13 bucks an hour or so. We if the minimum wage goes up to $ 15.00 as some want that guy making $ 13.00 an hour isn't going to be happy with an increase to $ 15.00 the same as a new hire. He is going to want $ 18.00 an hour or so.
I am an employer with a small manufacturing business. Perhaps if I can't pay a living wage to my employees then I should be out of business as Shadow suggested. However is the country better off with my business and those like it gone and those people who did work for me on welfare or unemployment or are they better off with me generating jobs and taxes even though my workers (most of them) are not getting rich.
Frankly I feel the government has been the biggest enemy of my business. There are constantly more regulations that take time and money and add to my overhead. Obama care was a real kick in the butt. Our health care coverage went up 17% the first year and 101% this coming year. If we hire a new employee and he has a family we are paying almost as much for his health coverage as we are his wages ($ 1,250.00 a month for someone with a family).
When I try to hire someone and we have had to hire about 5 new guys this fall it is tough to just find someone who can show up 5 days a week and has basic skills like being able to read a tape measure. We get applicants who are happy with the peanut wages we pay but really they usually don't have a drivers license due to DUI's. We have to go through the extra burden of deducting child support and sending it in since they couldn't keep something in their pants and usually when they call off sick it was because they got to drunk to work.
-
The problem isn't a low minimum wage it is that too many people don't have the skills to do jobs that pay more. One of the other problems with increasing the minimum wage is that those who have worked a while and are making more will also want an increase to keep the percentages in line with where they are now. Lets say for example that a company starts new workers at $ 9.00 an hour and for every year of service it goes up 50 cents. So someone working for 6-8 years is making $ 13 bucks an hour or so. We if the minimum wage goes up to $ 15.00 as some want that guy making $ 13.00 an hour isn't going to be happy with an increase to $ 15.00 the same as a new hire. He is going to want $ 18.00 an hour or so.
I am an employer with a small manufacturing business. Perhaps if I can't pay a living wage to my employees then I should be out of business as Shadow suggested. However is the country better off with my business and those like it gone and those people who did work for me on welfare or unemployment or are they better off with me generating jobs and taxes even though my workers (most of them) are not getting rich.
Let's see, $13 an hour is $520 a week, $27040 a year before taxes. Is this a living wage for a family of four where you live?
-
My two cents worth are that the problem isn't the minimum wage being too low. It is that our educational and social systems have failed us. We have too many Americans who are incapable of doing much other than washing floors and flipping burgers.
The cold hard reality is that employers will pay whatever they have to to get the job done. If it is picking cotton and they can get illegals to do it for 5 bucks an hour and if they will work their butts off for that then that is what they will hire. If they have to pay $ 10.00 to get the job done they will do that and likewise for $ 15.00. Of course if they have to pay $ 15.00 they may have to raise prices or may go out of business and be replaced by a farmer in Mexico who only has to pay 2 bucks an hour for his wages.
The problem isn't a low minimum wage it is that too many people don't have the skills to do jobs that pay more. One of the other problems with increasing the minimum wage is that those who have worked a while and are making more will also want an increase to keep the percentages in line with where they are now. Lets say for example that a company starts new workers at $ 9.00 an hour and for every year of service it goes up 50 cents. So someone working for 6-8 years is making $ 13 bucks an hour or so. We if the minimum wage goes up to $ 15.00 as some want that guy making $ 13.00 an hour isn't going to be happy with an increase to $ 15.00 the same as a new hire. He is going to want $ 18.00 an hour or so.
I am an employer with a small manufacturing business. Perhaps if I can't pay a living wage to my employees then I should be out of business as Shadow suggested. However is the country better off with my business and those like it gone and those people who did work for me on welfare or unemployment or are they better off with me generating jobs and taxes even though my workers (most of them) are not getting rich.
Frankly I feel the government has been the biggest enemy of my business. There are constantly more regulations that take time and money and add to my overhead. Obama care was a real kick in the butt. Our health care coverage went up 17% the first year and 101% this coming year. If we hire a new employee and he has a family we are paying almost as much for his health coverage as we are his wages ($ 1,250.00 a month for someone with a family).
When I try to hire someone and we have had to hire about 5 new guys this fall it is tough to just find someone who can show up 5 days a week and has basic skills like being able to read a tape measure. We get applicants who are happy with the peanut wages we pay but really they usually don't have a drivers license due to DUI's. We have to go through the extra burden of deducting child support and sending it in since they couldn't keep something in their pants and usually when they call off sick it was because they got to drunk to work.
I didn't know that they had any small business or manufacturing north of Pittsburg. I guess we learn something every day.
:devil:
-
A small increase in minimum wage, a closure of loopholes for high earners, a higher dollar amount of EIC (earned income credit), and cuts in the military. With these 4 items we could keep our society from becoming too financially polarized and not create too much inflation....which I feel is fair and is what we should all want as we all benefit from this type of society! :D
Fathertime!
-
Back on topic. I found poster BillyB's arguments to be the best concerning problems with raising the minimum wage too high. Why should anyone bust their hump and try to get ahead when they can coast?
Lol.
Billy supports a minimum wage. I support its repeal. Time to rollback socialism in this country.
-
I see nothing unreasonable about an increase in minimum wage. These people are working! The jobs I did as a high schooler, dishwasher and busboy, are now sometimes being filled by adults, because that is the best they can do. I was a paperboy as a child, those days are gone, for those that still get papers it is almost always an adult that is delivers them. If people doing these jobs don't have enough to live on, then bad things can happen. If minimum wage is to remain low, then I'm glad there is a strong welfare system in place because too many people can fall through the crack, and that is not good for society as a whole. This has nothing to do with socialism, which is a less-preferred system for me personally. I've read how well our society is doing as a whole, so kicking down to those that work hardest is a good thing!
Fathertime!
Why not raise it to a billion dollars an hour?
-
Because there are approximately 25 million illegal aliens in this country. That's why those jobs are no longer done by teenagers. Those aliens are the number one reason that wages have been suppressed; and they are no benefit to our country. It costs far more in benefits for each and every one of them to be here then they pay in taxes, and they send a large portion of their wages back to Mexico. Stop the illegal amnesties, stop the vote buying power for the Democrats, and you will see both wages and standard of living for legal American rise again.
Don't sell yourself short. Billy's argument doesn't even address this issue. And isn't he in the construction business. His son is older than his wife too. Curious.
-
My two cents worth are that the problem isn't the minimum wage being too low. It is that our educational and social systems have failed us. We have too many Americans who are incapable of doing much other than washing floors and flipping burgers.
The cold hard reality is that employers will pay whatever they have to to get the job done. If it is picking cotton and they can get illegals to do it for 5 bucks an hour and if they will work their butts off for that then that is what they will hire. If they have to pay $ 10.00 to get the job done they will do that and likewise for $ 15.00. Of course if they have to pay $ 15.00 they may have to raise prices or may go out of business and be replaced by a farmer in Mexico who only has to pay 2 bucks an hour for his wages.
The problem isn't a low minimum wage it is that too many people don't have the skills to do jobs that pay more. One of the other problems with increasing the minimum wage is that those who have worked a while and are making more will also want an increase to keep the percentages in line with where they are now. Lets say for example that a company starts new workers at $ 9.00 an hour and for every year of service it goes up 50 cents. So someone working for 6-8 years is making $ 13 bucks an hour or so. We if the minimum wage goes up to $ 15.00 as some want that guy making $ 13.00 an hour isn't going to be happy with an increase to $ 15.00 the same as a new hire. He is going to want $ 18.00 an hour or so.
I am an employer with a small manufacturing business. Perhaps if I can't pay a living wage to my employees then I should be out of business as Shadow suggested. However is the country better off with my business and those like it gone and those people who did work for me on welfare or unemployment or are they better off with me generating jobs and taxes even though my workers (most of them) are not getting rich.
Frankly I feel the government has been the biggest enemy of my business. There are constantly more regulations that take time and money and add to my overhead. Obama care was a real kick in the butt. Our health care coverage went up 17% the first year and 101% this coming year. If we hire a new employee and he has a family we are paying almost as much for his health coverage as we are his wages ($ 1,250.00 a month for someone with a family).
When I try to hire someone and we have had to hire about 5 new guys this fall it is tough to just find someone who can show up 5 days a week and has basic skills like being able to read a tape measure. We get applicants who are happy with the peanut wages we pay but really they usually don't have a drivers license due to DUI's. We have to go through the extra burden of deducting child support and sending it in since they couldn't keep something in their pants and usually when they call off sick it was because they got to drunk to work.
Wisdom.
-
A small increase in minimum wage, a closure of loopholes for high earners, a higher dollar amount of EIC (earned income credit), and cuts in the military. With these 4 items we could keep our society from becoming too financially polarized and not create too much inflation....which I feel is fair and is what we should all want as we all benefit from this type of society! :D
Fathertime!
Fair like love is a changeling.
-
Let's see, $13 an hour is $520 a week, $27040 a year before taxes. Is this a living wage for a family of four where you live?
Where I live, Yes. Of course it depends on how much of the budget goes for beer and weed. Around here you can buy a livable house for $ 20,000.00 or so or a pretty nice house for $ 50-60,000.00. Even if you rent, $ 400-500.00 will get a decent place. Groceries at Aldis maybe $ 80-100 a week for a family of 4. (The two of us eat for about $ 50.00 a week). I could go further but yes, someone could live on that income. Our cost of living is probably much less than that even though our income is a lot higher.
Of course in our hypothetical case the wife could always get a job as well to add to the family income.
-
I didn't know that they had any small business or manufacturing north of Pittsburg. I guess we learn something every day.
:devil:
There isn't much any more. About once a year a long term manufacturing business shuts down. Armstrong Cork was the last, a year ago. Our next door neighbor a steel processor that used to employ 275 shut the year before that and the plant has been leveled. They are talking about putting in low income housing there which is not the kind of next door neighbor for my business that I would prefer.
The only thing that has helped the area is the Marcellus Shale.
-
Don't sell yourself short. Billy's argument doesn't even address this issue. And isn't he in the construction business. His son is older than his wife too. Curious.
In the context of discussing minimum wage, talking silliness about Billy's wife's age is just goofy...Don't ya think?
Fathertime!
-
If a 50 year old man is working at McDonalds, he should at least not need to find more than that job to pay his bills and feed his family.
I don't want my son making a wage he feels comfortable with at McDonalds. I want him to advance in life. It's good for him. It's good for the country.
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/07/03/3456393/minimum-wage-state-increase-employment/ (http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/07/03/3456393/minimum-wage-state-increase-employment/)
Think a higher minimum wage is a job killer? Think again: The states that raised their minimum wages on January 1 have seen higher employment growth (http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/cepr-blog/2014-job-creation-in-states-that-raised-the-minimum-wage) since then than the states that kept theirs at the same rate.
The minimum wage went up in 13 states Arizona, Connecticut, Colorado, Florida, Missouri, Montana, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Washington either thanks to automatic increases in line with inflation or new legislation, as Ben Wolcott reports in his analysis at the Center for Economic and Policy Research. The average change in employment for those states over the first five months of the year as compared with the last five of 2013 is .99 percent, while the average for all remaining states is .68 percent. Digging deeper, all but one of those states are experiencing increases in employment, and nine of them have seen growth above the median rate.
(http://d35brb9zkkbdsd.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/wolcott-2014-06-30_494.jpg)
Glyden, the argument minimum wage increases drive employment up is majorly flawed. The top 2 states in the chart didn't increase their minimum wages and seen the biggest employment increase. Also.... many of those new jobs were probably paying higher than minimum wage. Minimum wage had little to do with hiring new people. Our economy was going to rebound regardless who was president except it could've been better if someone else was elected.
If McDonalds start paying their employees $15 instead of the current minimum wage, they will start charging more for their food and in turn, they will have less customers. Who wants to pay premium for a simple burger? If they have less customers, they will have to trim down their work force which backs the argument jobs will be lost. McDonalds can't charge what better brand restaurants charge for food. They will be out of business. McDonalds is not and should not be the final destination of our youth looking to get into the job market. McDonalds should be a stepping stone for those to move onto bigger and better things. Yes, there will be many who struggle to getting to their final destination but hard work never killed anybody.
My close buddy is an executive at UPS, I have had the opportunity to work for them if I wanted, but I don't need to so I don't. The reality is my buddy gets paid well....over 200K a year (during good years)....does he work hard? HARDLY! He often is 'working from home', or working from the golf course. He biggest skill is that he is a very good people-person. This year has been a down year for him, only 150K...but still considering how easy his job is, he is getting a lot of money. It is not always the hardest workers that are getting paid the most, it is sometimes the guys that can mingle and relate with other decision makers. He feels UPS is a GREAT company to work for, and of course I don't blame him, but the reality for others is that it is backbreaking!
Fathertime!
Your buddy may not work hard but maybe he has a good head on his shoulder and makes big decisions that are valuable to UPS? Maybe UPS feels he is worth what they're paying him? One good decision can make or save UPS a few thousand dollars. Those individuals who move heavy boxes can't earn the company that kind of money. It's possible you feel your buddy doesn't deserve that kind of money for the work he does but that decision goes to the person or company that pays him.
a closure of loopholes for high earners
It's easy to think those who earn big bucks are getting around the system with loopholes but I'm sure they're paying they're fair share what the law requires them to pay unless they are breaking the law. If you start up a business, your company may pay the government close to 40% in taxes and whatever you take out of your company as a paycheck, you will pay taxes on that too. In my opinion, those work hard to start a business are brave. They will pay much more in taxes compared to their employees. Most will go out of business and go into debt but for those that make it and create jobs, they deserve more.
-
There isn't much any more. About once a year a long term manufacturing business shuts down. Armstrong Cork was the last, a year ago. Our next door neighbor a steel processor that used to employ 275 shut the year before that and the plant has been leveled. They are talking about putting in low income housing there which is not the kind of next door neighbor for my business that I would prefer.
The only thing that has helped the area is the Marcellus Shale.
How has the Obamacare mandate effected your business if any?
-
In the context of discussing minimum wage, talking silliness about Billy's wife's age is just goofy...Don't ya think?
Fathertime!
I concede your authority on the subject matter. Nonetheless it is a fact, is it not?
I wish you would respond to facts. Are you capable of such novelties?
-
Hey Billy, if you employ amnestied illegal immigrants, do you have to provide them health care?
-
Your buddy may not work hard but maybe he has a good head on his shoulder and makes big decisions that are valuable to UPS? Maybe UPS feels he is worth what they're paying him? One good decision can make or save UPS a few thousand dollars. Those individuals who move heavy boxes can't earn the company that kind of money. It's possible you feel your buddy doesn't deserve that kind of money for the work he does but that decision goes to the person or company that pays him.
It's easy to think those who earn big bucks are getting around the system with loopholes but I'm sure they're paying they're fair share what the law requires them to pay unless they are breaking the law. If you start up a business, your company may pay the government close to 40% in taxes and whatever you take out of your company as a paycheck, you will pay taxes on that too. In my opinion, those work hard to start a business are brave. They will pay much more in taxes compared to their employees. Most will go out of business and go into debt but for those that make it and create jobs, they deserve more.
Hey Billy, I wanted to dispel the statement regarding that it is always hard workers are making the big bucks. I see more loafing and goofing off among high earners, then I do with the lower level workers. In my buddy's case, I say good for him that he has such flexibility. I'd like to see the lower level workers cut a break without a commensurate rise in inflation.
Now regarding very high earners paying a reasonable share of taxes. I really question if that is accurate. When seeing that Romney only paid 14% on 10's of millions, it really makes a person think which other multi-millionaires are paying so little, or even less! Somebody has to pay for all the nice things we have here, and those that have reaped the greatest rewards should be paying more than 14%!! The infrastructure and people of the country need continued investment.
Fathertime!
-
I concede your authority on the subject matter. Nonetheless it is a fact, is it not?
I wish you would respond to facts. Are you capable of such novelties?
Maybe it is a fact, but it is not a relevant fact....It would make as much sense as me saying "you have giant flopping moobs".... during a discussion about how to order pay per view on cable.
Fathertime!
-
Maybe it is a fact, but it is not a relevant fact....It would make as much sense as me saying "you have giant flopping moobs".... during a discussion about how to order pay per view on cable.
Fathertime!
So only you decide what is or isn't relevant?
The guy pays his son slightly above minimum wage yet he imports this sweet young thing to supplant his his mother and how this escapes you when it comes to his credibility is after all no surprise.
Unanswered is whether he hires American citizens or illegals, whether he provides health care, which you commies should care about but situationally don't.
Whatevs dude
-
So only you decide what is or isn't relevant?
The guy pays his son slightly above minimum wage yet he imports this sweet young thing to supplant his his mother
Whatevs dude
These are 2 entirely separate issues. What does one have to do with the other? Why are you asserting anything about roles and supplanting? I don't see ANY relevance to a discussion on minimum wage...I really don't. Yes I have decided it is not relevant and probably not even accurate.
Fathertime!
-
If McDonalds start paying their employees $15 instead of the current minimum wage, they will start charging more for their food and in turn, they will have less customers. Who wants to pay premium for a simple burger? If they have less customers, they will have to trim down their work force which backs the argument jobs will be lost. McDonalds can't charge what better brand restaurants charge for food. They will be out of business. McDonalds is not and should not be the final destination of our youth looking to get into the job market. McDonalds should be a stepping stone for those to move onto bigger and better things. Yes, there will be many who struggle to getting to their final destination but hard work never killed anybody.
There is a price ceiling on these types of things. Companies may or may not raise their prices and it probably won't be a significant enough of a raise to warrant "premium" pricing as you put it.
There are other McDonalds, in other countries, that cost more than here and they seem to be doing quite well.
You also forgot the upside where people will have more money to spend.
Studies look at what happened when cities raised minimum wage
Businesses absorbed the costs through lower turnover, small price increases at restaurants, which have a high concentration of low-wage workers, and higher worker productivity, the researchers found.
Potential price increases at restaurants was the biggest negative impact identified by the Berkeley researchers. The cost of eating out went up 2 to 3 percent when the minimum wage rose 25 percent. That means dining out in Seattle could go up as much as 7 percent if the city goes to $15 an hour.
http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2023116005_wageimpactsxml.html (http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2023116005_wageimpactsxml.html)
-
These are 2 entirely separate issues. What does one have to do with the other? Why are you asserting anything about roles and supplanting? I don't see ANY relevance to a discussion on minimum wage...I really don't. Yes I have decided it is not relevant and probably not even accurate.
Fathertime!
The guy is crazy, that's why. It's hard to understand half the things he says.
-
Well let's here your winner's speech then! How do we uproot 25 million people and families and what for?
Fathertime!
Read the link which I provided and all will be clear. All it takes is a backbone, real concern for LEGAL immigrants as well as Americans born here, and some buses and a few ships.
-
There isn't much any more. About once a year a long term manufacturing business shuts down. Armstrong Cork was the last, a year ago. Our next door neighbor a steel processor that used to employ 275 shut the year before that and the plant has been leveled. They are talking about putting in low income housing there which is not the kind of next door neighbor for my business that I would prefer.
The only thing that has helped the area is the Marcellus Shale.
:popcorn:
-
The guy is crazy, that's why. It's hard to understand half the things he says.
Crazy huh? And yet you admit you aren't smart enough to keep up. . .
-
How has the Obamacare mandate effected your business if any?
Well LT Obamacare has been a big worry for me. The big increase (101%) kicks in Jan 1. Since we have added some employees my guess is that it will up our expenses about $ 60-70,0000 a year which is more than our profit in many of the past years. Due to some flukes in weather at the moment our business is way up so short term we can handle it but we work hard to keep our expenses down and that is a pretty big hit. Perhaps we have spoiled our employees by having really good health care in the past where they could pick their Dr and only have a $ 10.00 co pay as well as having vision and dental coverage. We could go to a crappy program where the employees have to pay all but catastrophic things and get back to our costs as they were for last year but I really hate to do that and we have some employees whose families have health issues and would not be happy. Obama Care has the potential to put us out of business but I will fight hard to keep that from happening.
-
Don't sell yourself short. Billy's argument doesn't even address this issue. And isn't he in the construction business. His son is older than his wife too. Curious.
So what is your obsession with other people's wives and children?
Move away from the keyboard and take your pills.
-
Maybe it is a fact, but it is not a relevant fact....It would make as much sense as me saying "you have giant flopping moobs".... during a discussion about how to order pay per view on cable.
Fathertime!
That means it is time for a "bro."
-
:popcorn:
AC, out of curiosity. Are you in the top 1%? 5%? 10%?
-
Well LT Obamacare has been a big worry for me. The big increase (101%) kicks in Jan 1. Since we have added some employees my guess is that it will up our expenses about $ 60-70,0000 a year which is more than our profit in many of the past years. Due to some flukes in weather at the moment our business is way up so short term we can handle it but we work hard to keep our expenses down and that is a pretty big hit. Perhaps we have spoiled our employees by having really good health care in the past where they could pick their Dr and only have a $ 10.00 co pay as well as having vision and dental coverage. We could go to a crappy program where the employees have to pay all but catastrophic things and get back to our costs as they were for last year but I really hate to do that and we have some employees whose families have health issues and would not be happy. Obama Care has the potential to put us out of business but I will fight hard to keep that from happening.
It must be annoying when idiots impose higher costs on your business in defiance of the market. We have NO economy with out manufacturing.
-
Read the link which I provided and all will be clear. All it takes is a backbone, real concern for LEGAL immigrants as well as Americans born here, and some buses and a few ships.
Many of our profitable businesses have rolled out the welcome mat and our last several presidents and other elected representatives have turned a blind eye, so now we have this issue. There is no will to start removing massive amounts of people. The country would have a war if we tried to remove or attempt a war of attrition on 10's of millions of Illegal immigrants, we simply waited WAY too long to deal with the problem the way you are advocating. Therefore we can do other things, like live together and make the best of it. There are countless illegal members of our society that have had children with citizens, and all those children are also legal, and the country (as a whole) will not stand for these families being separated at this late juncture. What I would like to see, but may never happen, is an effective border and system, as I don't see why we HAVE to have the border as porous as it remains.
Among other measures we could take, we have the manpower and the technology to run an effective border, but the political will seems to be to spend the money on the military and station them around the world instead.
Fathertime!
-
Many of our profitable businesses have rolled out the welcome mat and our last several presidents and other elected representatives have turned a blind eye, so now we have this issue. There is no will to start removing massive amounts of people. The country would have a war if we tried to remove or attempt a war of attrition on 10's of millions of Illegal immigrants, we simply waited WAY too long to deal with the problem the way you are advocating. Therefore we can do other things, like live together and make the best of it. There are countless illegal members of our society that have had children with citizens, and all those children are also legal, and the country (as a whole) will not stand for these families being separated at this late juncture. What I would like to see, but may never happen, is an effective border and system, as I don't see why we HAVE to have the border as porous as it remains.
Among other measures we could take, we have the manpower and the technology to run an effective border, but the political will seems to be to spend the money on the military and station them around the world instead.
Fathertime!
While I appreciate your answer and the thought that went into it, I believe you left out two important components.
1) Your OP only deals with those who are here. How to stop the massive run for the border that is still continuing, because of the mixed-messages of the Obama admin?
2) I don't agree that there would be a war if it was done correctly. First and foremost any and all who have gang tattoos and gang ties should be immediately returned. When they are returned it should be at least 500 miles into the interior.
a) Those still here illegally can be given the option of paying a fine for breaking the law, and fill out paperwork to be guest workers. They would never be permanent citizens because they broke the law and cut in line. They would be allowed 8 months in country and must leave for a minimum of 4 months before returning on a new guest worker pass. All others should leave voluntarily.
-
AC, out of curiosity. Are you in the top 1%? 5%? 10%?
If you are talking income the answer is no. My upbringing was in a small rural town (it was before, but is not now) and I identify with blue collar values although I've worked more than a decade in a white collar world.
-
While I appreciate your answer and the thought that went into it, I believe you left out two important components.
1) Your OP only deals with those who are here. How to stop the massive run for the border that is still continuing, because of the mixed-messages of the Obama admin?
2) I don't agree that there would be a war if it was done correctly. First and foremost any and all who have gang tattoos and gang ties should be immediately returned. When they are returned it should be at least 500 miles into the interior.
a) Those still here illegally can be given the option of paying a fine for breaking the law, and fill out paperwork to be guest workers. They would never be permanent citizens because they broke the law and cut in line. They would be allowed 8 months in country and must leave for a minimum of 4 months before returning on a new guest worker pass. All others should leave voluntarily.
I believe the ship has sailed....although I'd like to see all the violent gang members eradicated, none of this is going to happen. The linked plan was done in the 1950's, our country is much different nowadays...it just wouldn't happen for many reasons...so we must deal in reality...
Can you imagine all the rancor and ill will that would be created by rounding up or intimidating millions to leave, some fighting kicking and screaming and all on video? Right now the latin american and S. American countries are mostly somewhat friendly with us....One little talked about result from that sort of policy MIGHT be a unification in opposition to us....That, among the myriad of consequences from such a policy makes it just not worth it.....I continue to hold that GOING FORWARD we could do something very significant regarding the border and enforcement, but even that seems to be a bridge too far for our representatives and president's. The vast majority of those that have climbed over the border are probably here to stay, for better or worse, but I think for now this country can absorb what we have.
Fathertime!
-
No. If anything support for OPERATION WET BACK and policy like that has increased in popularity with Obama and Ramos poisoning the well.
-
No. If anything support for OPERATION WET BACK and policy like that has increased in popularity with Obama and Ramos poisoning the well.
Absolutely. The groundswell of irritation and frustration at our laws being violated and our borders not being secure cannot be overstated. The legal citizens of this country are extremely fed-up with our government, and that includes RINO's who refuse to respect the will of the people.
The gigantic problem though is that 96% of our media are left-wing hacks who don't report the true feelings of American citizens. However just look at a recent vote in Oregon, a very liberal state, to see how the American people really feel about illegal immigration.
-
No. If anything support for OPERATION WET BACK and policy like that has increased in popularity with Obama and Ramos poisoning the well.
What is 'operation wet back'?
Overall I think people want a resolution even if imperfect if going forward it will bring a 'return to order' (as the mods would say) to the border then most would accept it....I suspect.
Fathertime!
-
What is 'operation wet back'?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback
Do you live in a cave? Google it. It's free.
-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback)
Do you live in a cave? Google it. It's free.
Thank you for providing the link...the name of the operation threw me off, as it just didn't sound right.
Fathertime!
-
Absolutely. The groundswell of irritation and frustration at our laws being violated and our borders not being secure cannot be overstated. The legal citizens of this country are extremely fed-up with our government, and that includes RINO's who refuse to respect the will of the people.
The gigantic problem though is that 96% of our media are left-wing hacks who don't report the true feelings of American citizens. However just look at a recent vote in Oregon, a very liberal state, to see how the American people really feel about illegal immigration.
I was an amnesty guy until the President implemented his policy. I felt, I still these people are second class citizens. But the Democrats and the allies (the domestic enemies of America like FT) are using these people to establish an undemocratic hegemony through voter fraud. The poor people are as usual the toilet paper for these monsters.
-
I was an amnesty guy until the President implemented his policy. I felt, I still these people are second class citizens. But the Democrats and the allies (the domestic enemies of America like FT) are using these people to establish an undemocratic hegemony through voter fraud. The poor people are as usual the toilet paper for these monsters.
...
That is silliness...if anything the Democrats will be implementing policies against my interests...Treating these people and their family's reasonably doesn't make anybody a domestic enemy. I'm not seeing why you were once for amnesty and now against it, you suddenly sound Kerry like.
Fathertime!
-
...
That is silliness... I'm not seeing why you were once for amnesty and now against it, you suddenly sound Kerry like.
Fathertime!
That's too bad.
if anything the Democrats will be implementing policies against my interests...Treating these people and their family's reasonably doesn't make anybody a domestic enemy.
yeah sure
-
Hey Billy, if you employ amnestied illegal immigrants, do you have to provide them health care?
I don't have to provide anybody with health care. I don't have a big company.
If our government gives amnesty to illegal immigrants, they aren't illegal anymore. If they work for a company that provides health care, that company must provide for the newly legal immigrants too.
I see more loafing and goofing off among high earners, then I do with the lower level workers.
Some days I find myself pushing a pen more than dirt. Lower level workers do the grunt work. When they're older, hopefully their work gets easier and they get rewarded with more pay. Before getting to the top, everybody should start at the bottom.
There are other McDonalds, in other countries, that cost more than here and they seem to be doing quite well.
You also forgot the upside where people will have more money to spend.
People have more to spend so things cost more. I understand our European friends disgust with how low our minimum wage is but our dollars go farther. I think Americans eat more and own more junk than anybody.
In McDonalds in America, one can buy a burger, fries, chicken sandwich, chicken nuggets, sausage muffin, breakfast burrito, or a large soda for a dollar each. Water is free. A homeless person can eat 3 meals a day with water for $3 plus tax. Is this possible in any McDonalds outside of America? Minimum wage goes further here than in other places. Gas is cheaper, food is cheaper, products(many thanks to China) are cheaper.
Studies look at what happened when cities raised minimum wage
http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2023116005_wageimpactsxml.html (http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2023116005_wageimpactsxml.html)[/font]
Washington State has the highest minimum wage in America. Seattle is an expensive place to live. People also make more and can pay more so raising the minimum wage there won't have a big impact compared to other places. Cost of living is more in Seattle. Seattle's minimum wage may not go as far as the minimum wage, which is less, where Turboguy lives. Turboguy said $500 a month get a person a decent place to live. $1200 may get a person a decent place to live in Seattle. As everybody's wages go up in Seattle, so will cost of living and we'll ride the circle again and again.
People who earn minimum wage accounts for 2.6% of all employees. It's okay for people to start at the bottom before working their way up. Chart below shows minimum wage moving around the same pace as inflation.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/09/08/who-makes-minimum-wage/
-
In McDonalds in America, one can buy a burger, fries, chicken sandwich, chicken nuggets, sausage muffin, breakfast burrito, or a large soda for a dollar each. Water is free. A homeless person can eat 3 meals a day with water for $3 plus tax. Is this possible in any McDonalds outside of America? Minimum wage goes further here than in other places. Gas is cheaper, food is cheaper, products(many thanks to China) are cheaper.
Well Billyb, I think overall you have made some good points. Using 10 dollars as a minimum wage...if a worker works all month he will bring in about 1732 a month....if that worker has a wife and two kids, he normally will have Rent, Food, Health Ins, as some big outlays each month...BUT he would qualify for section 8, (if he isn't on a long wait list)....he would qualify for food stamps, and he would qualify for obamacare....these programs would likely cover quite a bit if not virtually all of those expenses. Of course there are many other expenses...like clothing, some discounted utilities, transportation costs, car insurance (if necessary) occasionally a piece of furniture or a trip to the ballpark....all that said, I feel our minimum wage is artificially low, because of the safety net in place...if not for that safety net, people would be hard pressed to get by, and getting by would be about all they could do...and of course desperately hope not to get ill and miss a week of work.
Fathertime!
-
...and of course desperately hope not to get ill and miss a week of work.
Do people in the USA not get paid sick leave?
-
Most the big companies do. Full time workers get it. Most illegals have 2 to 3 part time jobs.
-
Do people in the USA not get paid sick leave?
Many states do not have strong employment laws so, if a worker is sick, unless the illness is covered by the Family Medical Leave Act or similar state legislation, his/her employment could be terminated, and there would be little recourse for the worker.
-
Do people in the USA not get paid sick leave?
The people at the low end jobs generally do not get paid if they are out sick....
Fathertime!
-
Do people in the USA not get paid sick leave?
It depends on the company. Most companies that are larger than a mom-and-pop operation have medical insurance and sick leave. The practices vary widely. In some, you can convert unused sick leave into vacation or get paid for it, others it resets at the end of the year. Also some occupations are less likely to be covered by sick leave such as laborers and part time or transient workers.
I suspect all union workers are covered by some kind of sick leave and medical plans. These benefits are analyzed by employees when they evaluate what companies they want to work for. In the free market, companies have to compete with each other in order to gain good employees and benefits is oftentimes a big factor in their decisions as well as commute times and the reputation of the companies toward employees. I remember a time in the late 60's when Boeing had a such a bad reputation that they had a very hard time getting employees to move to Seattle to build their airplanes.
-
No wonder Americans regard Europe as socialist.
-
No wonder Americans regard Europe as socialist.
Your absolutely right. In fact is was very educational for me to learn that Europeans have a totally different view on what is socialism than the US. I thank the forum for allowing these differences to be brought out. For those of us that had never been to Europe or studied it only had Canada to compare to and their socialized health care system was the only thing obvious to many of us.
Some of these discussions has been very helpful to me to understand the other points of view.
Our system worked quite well when we had a balance of labor and industry. Unions also prevented the large corporations from turning employees into slaves. Unfortunately the welfare state programs and the masses of illegal aliens has upset that balance of power and we are now faced with more labor that industry can handle. Plus our corrupt politicians moving much of our manufacturing overseas has also contributed to our current mess.
-
These two articles from today and yesterday discuss relevant aspects:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/needed-in-2015--middle-class-wealth-gains-165008103.html
In this link you will see a chart that shows how much wider the gap has become between the wealthy and the poor....
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/12/24/us-walmart-wages-idUSKBN0K20AE20141224
This article discusses among other things how Walmart is going to raise pay for some of the minimum wage workers by paying others less...although it appears they are taking from middle income workers to pay the minimum wage workers more...nowhere does it indicate upper level workers will be affected....interesting.
Fathertime!
-
Your absolutely right. In fact is was very educational for me to learn that Europeans have a totally different view on what is socialism than the US. I thank the forum for allowing these differences to be brought out. For those of us that had never been to Europe or studied it only had Canada to compare to and their socialized health care system was the only thing obvious to many of us.
Some of these discussions has been very helpful to me to understand the other points of view.
Our system worked quite well when we had a balance of labor and industry. Unions also prevented the large corporations from turning employees into slaves. Unfortunately the welfare state programs and the masses of illegal aliens has upset that balance of power and we are now faced with more labor that industry can handle. Plus our corrupt politicians moving much of our manufacturing overseas has also contributed to our current mess.
The balance is not disturbed by the illegal immigrants, as those are part of keeping the balance.
The actual disturbance of the balance was there being a lack of money in an economy that depends on constant growth.
Most companies and people expected that everything grows and rises each year, and when it does not get in to trouble.
Companies fund their future on borrowed money, and needed to continue reporting positives in order to keep their funders happy.
Similar people expected to be able to obtain ever larger credit to fund their expenses.
In the end, there was not enough money to keep affording this, which caused the financial crisis.
The result is that still a lot of people are in deep trouble, and only if a new era of growth emerges this can be solved.
-
People have more to spend so things cost more. I understand our European friends disgust with how low our minimum wage is but our dollars go farther. I think Americans eat more and own more junk than anybody.
I used to believe that line but realized I was merely regurgitating what I have read. I don't think any increase will be substantial enough to negatively impact most people.
I am more than happy to read more about this if you have any links.
Yes, we do have a pretty good deal here when it comes to purchasing power and I suspect it will continue even with a wage hike.
As an example, Walmart is restructuring how they pay people because of minimum wage hikes. They are not raising prices.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/12/24/us-walmart-wages-idUSKBN0K20AE20141224 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/12/24/us-walmart-wages-idUSKBN0K20AE20141224)
In McDonalds in America, one can buy a burger, fries, chicken sandwich, chicken nuggets, sausage muffin, breakfast burrito, or a large soda for a dollar each. Water is free. A homeless person can eat 3 meals a day with water for $3 plus tax. Is this possible in any McDonalds outside of America? Minimum wage goes further here than in other places. Gas is cheaper, food is cheaper, products(many thanks to China) are cheaper.
Well, I am not understanding how homeless people are entering into this equation. Again, I do agree prices are much lower here compared to other countries but believe we can afford some hikes in prices where it wouldn't affect most people.
Looking at the study I posted, restaurant prices being raised 2 to 3 percent wouldn't stop people from enjoying or being able to enjoy a night out at their favorite eatery. Even the proposed 7 percent increase at a minimum wage of 15 an hour wouldn't hinder most people from eating out.
I'm not sure you read the link since you got the city wrong, but the study found companies were able to absorb the higher costs in several ways. One being a lower turnover rate since they got a higher quality candidate. It costs a lot of money to train people and a high turnover rate is a big problem.
Washington State has the highest minimum wage in America. Seattle is an expensive place to live. People also make more and can pay more so raising the minimum wage there won't have a big impact compared to other places. Cost of living is more in Seattle. Seattle's minimum wage may not go as far as the minimum wage, which is less, where Turboguy lives. Turboguy said $500 a month get a person a decent place to live. $1200 may get a person a decent place to live in Seattle. As everybody's wages go up in Seattle, so will cost of living and we'll ride the circle again and again.
I believe the study was done in San Francisco but your point remains. I don't agree that it would be much different. With higher costs of living such as San Francisco and Seattle, the rents are much more for these places of business but they were still able to offer prices that people where willing to purchase at.
People who earn minimum wage accounts for 2.6% of all employees. It's okay for people to start at the bottom before working their way up. Chart below shows minimum wage moving around the same pace as inflation.
Where are the jobs for these people to work towards? You got more and more people coming out of college to nata, nothing and with big loans. The jobs aren't there anymore but everyone keeps telling people to do better.
-
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/12/24/us-walmart-wages-idUSKBN0K20AE20141224 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/12/24/us-walmart-wages-idUSKBN0K20AE20141224)
This article discusses among other things how Walmart is going to raise pay for some of the minimum wage workers by paying others less...although it appears they are taking from middle income workers to pay the minimum wage workers more...nowhere does it indicate upper level workers will be affected....interesting.
Fathertime!
ha! I just posted that link in response to Billy before I saw your posts. I tend to think that many of these things will happen instead of simply raising prices like many suspect would automatically happen. I'm not saying prices won't be raised, I think prices won't be raised substantially because some of the increased expenses can be met in other ways.
-
Our system worked quite well when we had a balance of labor and industry. Unions also prevented the large corporations from turning employees into slaves.
The unions in the country are more corrupt than the organizations they were supposed to fight against. I say that as a member of union AFGE local 1801
-
Washington State has the highest minimum wage in America. Seattle is an expensive place to live. People also make more and can pay more so raising the minimum wage there won't have a big impact compared to other places. Cost of living is more in Seattle. Seattle's minimum wage may not go as far as the minimum wage, which is less, where Turboguy lives. Turboguy said $500 a month get a person a decent place to live. $1200 may get a person a decent place to live in Seattle. As everybody's wages go up in Seattle, so will cost of living and we'll ride the circle again and again.
This is the problem with raising the minimum wage to an artificially high level. The moment it goes up the "gains" are immediately eaten up by increases in rent, food, gas and other expenditures.
We don't need higher minimum wages, we need more middle class well paying full-time jobs being created. As long as our government steals Billions of dollars from the USA economy in the form of taxes instead of allowing companies to invest in new manufacturing plants and higher wages for their employees, the false and artificial narrative will continue.
-
This is the problem with raising the minimum wage to an artificially high level. The moment it goes up the "gains" are immediately eaten up by increases in rent, food, gas and other expenditures.
We don't need higher minimum wages, we need more middle class well paying full-time jobs being created. As long as our government steals Billions of dollars from the USA economy in the form of taxes instead of allowing companies to invest in new manufacturing plants and higher wages for their employees, the false and artificial narrative will continue.
Stop paying taxes. Things like roads are not needed, police is only comitting race crimes and nobody at all needs to protect the US from foreigners willing to add to their economy.
-
Stop paying taxes. Things like roads are not needed, police is only comitting race crimes and nobody at all needs to protect the US from foreigners willing to add to their economy.
I realize you are trying to be funny however I did not say that. Those services are important however there is much room for cutting waste in the Federal budget. Scott Walker did it in Wisconsin and it can be done on the Federal level.
In Germany a Socialist country their Post Office has apparently been privatized. Many US services could also be privatized in order to not only cut waste but improve quality. Beginning with the VA healthcare which is a corrupt and bloated bureaucracy. From there privatize the US Post Office. Allow private companies to bid on building new roads and freeways. Lower Corporate tax rates. Not because government services are not needed, but because when tax rates are too high companies simply shift money overseas to tax shelters. Some tax when the rates are in balance is far superior to zero taxes being obtained which is what happens when companies remain overseas.
-
I realize you are trying to be funny however I did not say that. Those services are important however there is much room for cutting waste in the Federal budget. Scott Walker did it in Wisconsin and it can be done on the Federal level.
In Germany a Socialist country their Post Office has apparently been privatized. Many US services could also be privatized in order to not only cut waste but improve quality. Beginning with the VA healthcare which is a corrupt and bloated bureaucracy. From there privatize the US Post Office. Allow private companies to bid on building new roads and freeways. Lower Corporate tax rates. Not because government services are not needed, but because when tax rates are too high companies simply shift money overseas to tax shelters. Some tax when the rates are in balance is far superior to zero taxes being obtained which is what happens when companies remain overseas.
Germany is far from being Socialist. As for privatizing, it is a different word for abolishing.
Healthcare in the Netherland is privatized, and it is still a corrupt and bloated bureaucracy, the promised lower fees were never realsied and instead people are obliged to take part in a private service, which raises prices yearly while reducing service and making millions of profit. Public transport is similas. As for the Post.. does anybody still use that ?
Bottom line is that the Government is controlled by the public and there for can be much more efficient and transparent in taking care of issues where not just money ocunts but also the benefit to society.
As I mentioned the tax rates in the USA are low to me, however so is the level of public service.
-
Stop paying taxes. Things like roads are not needed, police is only comitting race crimes and nobody at all needs to protect the US from foreigners willing to add to their economy.
More false dichotomies from a believer in falsehoods. You don't care about poor people or America. Anyone else sick of this crap?
-
Bottom line is that the Government is controlled by the public and there for can be much more efficient and transparent in taking care of issues where not just money ocunts but also the benefit to society.
As I mentioned the tax rates in the USA are low to me, however so is the level of public service.
If tbat is true of yor government that is great. Here i don't think it can be totally said that the government is controlled by the people or that there is much it does that is efficient or transparent.
-
Where I live, Yes...Around here you can buy a livable house for $ 20,000.00 or so or a pretty nice house for $ 50-60,000.00.
I've been mulling this over for a few days, Turbo, and I still find it just so hard to believe. I know that your town has only about 9,000 residents, but those house prices suggest an incredibly depressed, derelict area with everybody running for the hills. The only comparable prices here would be in nearly empty mining villages. I know that big cities are completely different, but the average house price in Auckland is around $NZ 750,000 (roughly $US 600,000), and you can't find any freehold house for under about $300,000 (and you probably wouldn't want to live there, anyway).
Even if you rent, $ 400-500.00 will get a decent place.
For what period? Is this for a month? Here we always quote rentals at a weekly rate, and that $400-500 (a week) would only get an average three-bedroomed home in an average neighbourhood.
Groceries at Aldis maybe $ 80-100 a week for a family of 4. (The two of us eat for about $ 50.00 a week). I could go further but yes, someone could live on that income.
Maybe 30-40% more here in actual dollars (but only 10-20% more in US dollars after you allow for the rate of exchange), but at least this differential is nothing like that for housing.
Now, turning to the actual debate about minimum wages -
Our minimum wage is $17 an hour. That applies to all workplaces (including McDonalds), and there are very few firms that could honestly claim they've gone bankrupt because of having to pay increased wages. As was shown upthread, we were the first country to implement a statutory minimum wage, and the increases over the years have never been such that they've caused a catastrophic increase in costs. All companies manage any such increases in their own way - some absorb all (or most) of the cost; others pass it all on to customers. The bottom line is that it is not such a huge deal here any more, unlike in the US, because we're used to it. It also means that service staff don't have to rely on tips to survive. The 7% increase in the cost of a restaurant meal that someone quoted earlier should seriously not be a big deal to anyone intending to dine out.
It follows on from the paid leave which employees are allowed. There is a minimum allowance of four weeks annual leave, plus statutory holidays (11 days), but companies are free to offer more if they wish. There was a huge furore when the minimum was raised from three weeks, because companies felt they would have to hire extra staff to cover the 33% increase in absences but, again, that died down pretty quickly. Most firms in Europe give five or six weeks paid vacation per year, so their costs for replacement (or temporary) staff would be considerably higher, but you don't hear about huge riots by the employers to keep the holidays shorter.
-
I've been mulling this over for a few days, Turbo, and I still find it just so hard to believe. I know that your town has only about 9,000 residents, but those house prices suggest an incredibly depressed, derelict area with everybody running for the hills. The only comparable prices here would be in nearly empty mining villages. I know that big cities are completely different, but the average house price in Auckland is around $NZ 750,000 (roughly $US 600,000), and you can't find any freehold house for under about $300,000 (and you probably wouldn't want to live there, anyway).
For what period? Is this for a month? Here we always quote rentals at a weekly rate, and that $400-500 (a week) would only get an average three-bedroomed home in an average neighbourhood.
Obviously this is Turbo's question, but I will chime in as I have some experience here. He is 100% accurate with those prices. I've owned out of state property in W. Virginia and Ohio, and both the monthly rental prices and home prices are accurate for the areas I've been in. These are smallish towns, but not overly unsafe or fouled. Here in Southern California, you couldn't get a two-headed outhouse for the price mentioned.
Fathertime!
-
If tbat is true of yor government that is great. Here i don't think it can be totally said that the government is controlled by the people or that there is much it does that is efficient or transparent.
The mistrust in the goverment is always interesting. You are electing these guys.
Our government is far from perfect, however any government is more likely to take non-profit elements in to account as a company.
-
The mistrust in the goverment is always interesting. You are electing these guys.
Our government is far from perfect, however any government is more likely to take non-profit elements in to account as a company.
It isn't that I mistrust government. It is just that I realize they are all a bunch of greedy crooks. The only thing that keeps anything productie happening is their need to get reelected
-
I've been mulling this over for a few days, Turbo, and I still find it just so hard to believe. I know that your town has only about 9,000 residents, but those house prices suggest an incredibly depressed, derelict area with everybody running for the hills. The only comparable prices here would be in nearly empty mining villages. I know that big cities are completely different, but the average house price in Auckland is around $NZ 750,000 (roughly $US 600,000), and you can't find any freehold house for under about $300,000 (and you probably wouldn't want to live there, anyway).
For what period? Is this for a month? Here we always quote rentals at a weekly rate, and that $400-500 (a week) would only get an average three-bedroomed home in an average neighbourhood.
Maybe 30-40% more here in actual dollars (but only 10-20% more in US dollars after you allow for the rate of exchange), but at least this differential is nothing like that for housing.
Now, turning to the actual debate about minimum wages -
Our minimum wage is $17 an hour. That applies to all workplaces (including McDonalds), and there are very few firms that could honestly claim they've gone bankrupt because of having to pay increased wages. As was shown upthread, we were the first country to implement a statutory minimum wage, and the increases over the years have never been such that they've caused a catastrophic increase in costs. All companies manage any such increases in their own way - some absorb all (or most) of the cost; others pass it all on to customers. The bottom line is that it is not such a huge deal here any more, unlike in the US, because we're used to it. It also means that service staff don't have to rely on tips to survive. The 7% increase in the cost of a restaurant meal that someone quoted earlier should seriously not be a big deal to anyone intending to dine out.
It follows on from the paid leave which employees are allowed. There is a minimum allowance of four weeks annual leave, plus statutory holidays (11 days), but companies are free to offer more if they wish. There was a huge furore when the minimum was raised from three weeks, because companies felt they would have to hire extra staff to cover the 33% increase in absences but, again, that died down pretty quickly. Most firms in Europe give five or six weeks paid vacation per year, so their costs for replacement (or temporary) staff would be considerably higher, but you don't hear about huge riots by the employers to keep the holidays shorter.
Here in LA, you can get a fairly nice home for $400,000. During the real estate meltdown, there were whole city blocks out on the way to Palm Springs, with 20 houses, that you could pick up for under a million.
-
Overpriced
-
Here in LA, you can get a fairly nice home for $400,000. During the real estate meltdown, there were whole city blocks out on the way to Palm Springs, with 20 houses, that you could pick up for under a million.
I don't know what jone is talking about here. I saw nothing of the sort, unless he is talking about the Salton Sea area, but that is not on the route from LA to Palm Springs. Entire blocks of houses (New?) average price below 50K, between LA and Palm Springs? Never saw those, but I'd be curious if he can provide the city or an example...it certainly doesn't sound right...not along the route he mentioned...but lets see if there is further clarification.
Fathertime!
-
Although the increasing gap between rich and poor seems alarming to me, I do not think an increase in the minimum wage imposed by the government will do much good. The consequences of such a step is increased prices or/ and increased unemployment.
If you increase wages of the entree level employees (let's assume from 8$ to 15$), then the middle level employees who currently earns 15$ will ask for 7$ raise in their wages or they will be disgruntle, and so on. It would cause a chain reaction. Some business will have to lay off some employees to keep the wage cost under control. Many business will increase prices for their goods and services to offset the increase in wages and after a couple of years of turbulence, 15$ will be able to purchase no more stuff than 8$ purchase now.
-
Although the increasing gap between rich and poor seems alarming to me, I do not think an increase in the minimum wage imposed by the government will do much good. The consequences of such a step is increased prices or/ and increased unemployment.
If you increase wages of the entree level employees (let's assume from 8$ to 15$), then the middle level employees who currently earns 15$ will ask for 7$ raise in their wages or they will be disgruntle, and so on. It would cause a chain reaction. Some business will have to lay off some employees to keep the wage cost under control. Many business will increase prices for their goods and services to offset the increase in wages and after a couple of years of turbulence, 15$ will be able to purchase no more stuff than 8$ purchase now.
This is a wise woman and a lady. I wish more of our members would heed her well chosen words.
-
Although the increasing gap between rich and poor seems alarming to me, I do not think an increase in the minimum wage imposed by the government will do much good. The consequences of such a step is increased prices or/ and increased unemployment.
If you increase wages of the entree level employees (let's assume from 8$ to 15$), then the middle level employees who currently earns 15$ will ask for 7$ raise in their wages or they will be disgruntle, and so on. It would cause a chain reaction. Some business will have to lay off some employees to keep the wage cost under control. Many business will increase prices for their goods and services to offset the increase in wages and after a couple of years of turbulence, 15$ will be able to purchase no more stuff than 8$ purchase now.
Actually that is incorrect. A minimum wage should give a family income that is a little above the survival line.
If the minimum wage is below the survival line, it has to be increased in any case.
People who earn the new minimum wage will not ask for a raise, as their salary is not bound ti minimum wage level but to the level of their job. Social exploitation is a huge issue that should have been banned 100 years ago.
Having said that, a one-time raise from $8 to $15 is something I do not see as beneficial.
Better set an objective level (120% of survival?) and raise the level a little every year until it is on this level. After that keep it in line with inflation.
-
Although the increasing gap between rich and poor seems alarming to me, I do not think an increase in the minimum wage imposed by the government will do much good. The consequences of such a step is increased prices or/ and increased unemployment.
If you increase wages of the entree level employees (let's assume from 8$ to 15$), then the middle level employees who currently earns 15$ will ask for 7$ raise in their wages or they will be disgruntle, and so on. It would cause a chain reaction. Some business will have to lay off some employees to keep the wage cost under control. Many business will increase prices for their goods and services to offset the increase in wages and after a couple of years of turbulence, 15$ will be able to purchase no more stuff than 8$ purchase now.
:clapping:
-
Actually that is incorrect. A minimum wage should give a family income that is a little above the survival line.
If the minimum wage is below the survival line, it has to be increased in any case.
People who earn the new minimum wage will not ask for a raise, as their salary is not bound ti minimum wage level but to the level of their job. Social exploitation is a huge issue that should have been banned 100 years ago.
Having said that, a one-time raise from $8 to $15 is something I do not see as beneficial.
Better set an objective level (120% of survival?) and raise the level a little every year until it is on this level. After that keep it in line with inflation.
A minimum wage is a fraud. It supposed to help low skill workers but what it does is price out small businesses in favor of big businesses. Nice try.
-
A minimum wage is a fraud. It supposed to help low skill workers but what it does is price out small businesses in favor of big businesses. Nice try.
The fraud is people not being willing to allow their workers life.
-
Facts are stubborn things. May you reap what you sow.
I stand with the lady.
-
Having said that, a one-time raise from $8 to $15 is something I do not see as beneficial.
Better set an objective level (120% of survival?) and raise the level a little every year until it is on this level. After that keep it in line with inflation.
This seems reasonable enough, the minimum wage coupled with other social welfare programs is striking a reasonable balance. With these programs in place, 15 an hour is not needed. I can see 10 or 11 an hour in the next 5 years, all things remaining somewhat equal.
Fathertime!
-
People who earn the new minimum wage will not ask for a raise, as their salary is not bound to minimum wage level but to the level of their job. Social exploitation is a huge issue that should have been banned 100 years ago.
You mean like in Putin's Russia? I find it ironic that a man who claims to be concerned about living standards in the USA wishes to keep E. Ukraine and the rest of Ukraine enslaved to a 19th Century dictator as opposed to the self-determination and higher living standards of being a member of the EU.
Even more ironic that a man who seems to be an atheist would embrace a mafia brute thug who has a strange relationship with Orthodox manifest destiny. :rolleyes:
-
You mean like in Putin's Russia? I find it ironic that a man who claims to be concerned about living standards in the USA wishes to keep E. Ukraine and the rest of Ukraine enslaved to a 19th Century dictator as opposed to the self-determination and higher living standards of being a member of the EU.
Even more ironic that a man who seems to be an atheist would embrace a mafia brute thug who has a strange relationship with Orthodox manifest destiny. :rolleyes:
It seems you know little of my views.
I am all for self-determination of Ukraine, without any meddling from any party. That includes EU and US as well as Russia and Turkey.
As for EU membership, they are far away as the EU does not need cheap labour at this time.
Further more you know well enough that for any mafia member a religious affiliation is the best way to hide money and keep respect.
-
It seems you know little of my views.
I am all for self-determination of Ukraine, without any meddling from any party. That includes EU and US as well as Russia and Turkey.
As for EU membership, they are far away as the EU does not need cheap labour at this time.
Further more you know well enough that for any mafia member a religious affiliation is the best way to hide money and keep respect.
:rolleyes:
-
A minimum wage is a fraud. It supposed to help low skill workers but what it does is price out small businesses in favor of big businesses. Nice try.
That and it would also tend to make us less competitive in the world market place. I am not sure people are really better off anyway.
First off minimum wage really should be determined more at the state level with the federal guidelines matching the lowest of the state numbers. What I mean by that is that in places with a low cost of living something in the $ 7-10.00 per hour is a livable wage. In NYC it is not and even McDonalds would not attract workers paying minimum wage. The same applies to places like Boston, San Francisco, etc. My point is that minimum wage is not a universal thing. Wages need to be set more by the law of supply and demand than by laws. If you make a healthy economy by allowing companies to compete and grow then the demand for workers will cause a wage increase. Companies paying too little will not be able to hire and retain workers. Minimum wage laws are a band aid and the solution is to fix the underlying illness.
I got to do a lot of relaxing over my holiday and spent some time thinking about how an increase in the minimum wage to the $ 15.00 per hour would affect my business and how I would react to neutralize it.
One of the problems that would be particular to my business only is the way I have my pay schedule set up. By that I mean we do more than an hourly rate. Exactly what we do is usually a new hire for production is hired at $ 10.00 per hour. After 90 days they are eligible for a production bonus which nearly every week will add about 3 bucks an hour to their pay and at the end of the year we have profit sharing which requires a certain profit before it does get paid but also increases as our profit increases. This year we payed out about 60 grand, I believe, split among 10-12 people. After a few years their hourly pay may go up. So right now I have about 5 people making 10 bucks an hour, one making 13, one making 14 or 15 and one making 17 or 18, (plus bonuses of course) Now if the minimum wage went up to $ 15.00 that would affect all but one or two however if the guys currently making 10 bucks an hour are moved up to 15, those making 13 bucks an hour are not going to be happy moving up to 15 are they? No, I would have to move them up to maybe 18 and the one making 17 or 18 would have to go up to $ 22.00 or so, right? So then it isn't just affecting the guys struggling to feed their family. It will effect all employees and many other companies would be in the same boat.
So my first thought was that my payroll would go from about a half million a year to about 800,000 a year. So, maybe I could increase prices enough to cover all of that. But then my employee taxes would also go up since they are making more money so that adds another 50 grand or so to my expenses. It would seem logical to me that if my costs are going up by $ 350,000 a year and to come out even I would have to increase prices about 20% or more assuming that the higher prices did not reduce sales. But then assuming other companies would be in the same boat and that they may also have to increase prices by 20% or so then it seems logical to me that my material costs could well go up by 20% just as easily. Now if they go up by 20% then I need to add another 20-30% to cover my higher costs there so we are now looking at having to increase prices maybe 50-60% just to stay even. Since most of my competitors are in the USA they would also need to raise prices by 50-60% to cover this increase so I would remain competitive and it would not be a big deal, right? We we export a lot of stuff and that increase would probably take us out of that business since we would not be competitive in the world market place any more.
Now that brings me to this question. If we did have to raise prices by 50% to cover the increased in minimum wage and if most companies had to do the same is someone making 10 bucks an hour really better off if they make 15 bucks an hour and have to pay 50% more for everything they buy?
-
While this may be a fun topic to masticate, it is truly verbal masturbation.
The United States Congress is controlled by Republicans. Both houses. There is not even going to be a debate for wage increases, at the national level. Individual states may contemplate hourly minimum wage increases, but the Republicans hold more state government bodies this year than they have since the 1920s.
The issue is a non-starter.
-
This seems reasonable enough, the minimum wage coupled with other social welfare programs is striking a reasonable balance. With these programs in place, 15 an hour is not needed. I can see 10 or 11 an hour in the next 5 years, all things remaining somewhat equal.
Fathertime!
Why not raise the minimum wage to a $ 1 billion an hour? We could all be rich.
-
I have a question for TurboGuy. Tell us about the education these workers are coming in with at your factory? 12 years of free education, can they read? Write? How is their basic math skills?
We have listened to people like Muzh, FT, Shadow, lFU and others, given them the keys to the store and see how they govern?
We have no one to blame but ourselves
-
I've been mulling this over for a few days, Turbo, and I still find it just so hard to believe. I know that your town has only about 9,000 residents, but those house prices suggest an incredibly depressed, derelict area with everybody running for the hills. The only comparable prices here would be in nearly empty mining villages. I know that big cities are completely different, but the average house price in Auckland is around $NZ 750,000 (roughly $US 600,000), and you can't find any freehold house for under about $300,000 (and you probably wouldn't want to live there, anyway).
For what period? Is this for a month? Here we always quote rentals at a weekly rate, and that $400-500 (a week) would only get an average three-bedroomed home in an average neighbourhood.
Yes, that is for a month. I am not sure what you consider an "average" three bedroom house. $ 4-500.00 here will get a nice one or two bedroom apartment or a clean but older 3 bedroom home. The last apartment I rented was 10 years ago and it was a modern, very nice one bedroom with fireplace and a balcony and I paid $ 375.00 a month. I think those same apartments are going now for about $ 450.00.
We had a similar discussion a long, long time ago and it was either jb or KenC that went through some of the local real estate listings and showed houses that we as low as about 8 grand. I have two houses for sale at the moment. One I am hoping to sell for $ 29,000 it is a small house totally remodeled, new furnace, siding, roof, bathroom, redone kitchen, clean and nice area. The other is just in front of it and is a 7 room house with 3 bedrooms integral garage, new furnace, new whole house air, new siding, new roof, new Pella windows, great neighborhood, and I hope to get $ 59.000 for it. I am attaching a photo of this one which might give you an idea of what 60 grand will buy here. It won't win any beauty contests but it is a nice clean serviceable house and actually the house I grew up in. Is it a wonderful house, no, my wife says she would not want to live there, it wouldn't bother me any though.
-
We have no one to blame but ourselves
On a positive note, this is one statement that you have made that is true. What are we to be blamed FOR though? The country is not going TOO bad, all things considered.
Fathertime!
-
The country is not going TOO bad, all things considered.
Fathertime!
You talk too much out of both sides of that mouth of yours.
-
Yes, that is for a month. I am not sure what you consider an "average" three bedroom house. $ 4-500.00 here will get a nice one or two bedroom apartment or a clean but older 3 bedroom home. The last apartment I rented was 10 years ago and it was a modern, very nice one bedroom with fireplace and a balcony and I paid $ 375.00 a month. I think those same apartments are going now for about $ 450.00.
We had a similar discussion a long, long time ago and it was either jb or KenC that went through some of the local real estate listings and showed houses that we as low as about 8 grand. I have two houses for sale at the moment. One I am hoping to sell for $ 29,000 it is a small house totally remodeled, new furnace, siding, roof, bathroom, redone kitchen, clean and nice area. The other is just in front of it and is a 7 room house with 3 bedrooms integral garage, new furnace, new whole house air, new siding, new roof, new Pella windows, great neighborhood, and I hope to get $ 59.000 for it. I am attaching a photo of this one which might give you an idea of what 60 grand will buy here. It won't win any beauty contests but it is a nice clean serviceable house and actually the house I grew up in. Is it a wonderful house, no, my wife says she would not want to live there, it wouldn't bother me any though.
Nice pic. I suspect close to Tri state area?
Fathertime!
-
I have a question for TurboGuy. Tell us about the education these workers are coming in with at your factory? 12 years of free education, can they read? Write? How is their basic math skills?
I would say most typically they have a GED. We do a little test as part of our hiring process and try to make sure they can at least measure and 35% of our applicants can't. Here are a few questions from our tests so you all can see if you could qualify to work here.
To tighten a bolt the bolt is rotated
a. clockwise,
b. counterclockwise
c. it depends on if the bolt is a standard bolt or a metric bolt
d. none of the above.
Which is the largest.
a. 6 5/8
b. 6 19/32
c. 6 9/16
d. They are all the same
Please add 3 3/4 and 2 5/8 and place the answer here__________
-
Nice pic. I suspect close to Tri state area?
Fathertime!
Yes, that house is in Ellwood City, PA about 34 miles nw of Pittsburgh and about half way between Pittsburgh and Youngstown OH. The population there is about 12,000 and it is a nice town with low crime and good schools.
-
Yes, that house is in Ellwood City, PA about 34 miles nw of Pittsburgh and about half way between Pittsburgh and Youngstown OH. The population there is about 12,000 and it is a nice town with low crime and good schools.
God's country! :D
Fathertime!
-
the average house price in Auckland is around $NZ 750,000 (roughly $US 600,000), and you can't find any freehold house for under about $300,000 (and you probably wouldn't want to live there, anyway).
Here we always quote rentals at a weekly rate, and that $400-500 (a week) would only get an average three-bedroomed home in an average neighbourhood.
Maybe 30-40% more here in actual dollars (but only 10-20% more in US dollars after you allow for the rate of exchange), but at least this differential is nothing like that for housing.
Now, turning to the actual debate about minimum wages -
Our minimum wage is $17 an hour.
That was very interesting but I do have to wonder. Is someone better off making $ 17.00 an hour and needing to pay $ 400-500 a week for rent and 30-40% more for food and other things or making minimum wage here and paying $ 400.00 a month for rent and much less for everything else. Actually a lot of the minimum wage workers qualify for government assistance and live in subsidized housing that may only cost them $ 150-200 a month for rent and they can also get food stamps.
After my Mother retired she lived in a beautiful, modern, 7 story Senior living apartment complex with subsidized housing and the rent based on her income and she was paying less than $ 200.00 a month. People with low incomes here don't have it all that bad and don't usually starve unless they spend all their money on booze, drugs or lottery tickets.
-
That and it would also tend to make us less competitive in the world market place. I am not sure people are really better off anyway.
First off minimum wage really should be determined more at the state level with the federal guidelines matching the lowest of the state numbers. What I mean by that is that in places with a low cost of living something in the $ 7-10.00 per hour is a livable wage. In NYC it is not and even McDonalds would not attract workers paying minimum wage. The same applies to places like Boston, San Francisco, etc. My point is that minimum wage is not a universal thing. Wages need to be set more by the law of supply and demand than by laws. If you make a healthy economy by allowing companies to compete and grow then the demand for workers will cause a wage increase. Companies paying too little will not be able to hire and retain workers. Minimum wage laws are a band aid and the solution is to fix the underlying illness.
I got to do a lot of relaxing over my holiday and spent some time thinking about how an increase in the minimum wage to the $ 15.00 per hour would affect my business and how I would react to neutralize it.
One of the problems that would be particular to my business only is the way I have my pay schedule set up. By that I mean we do more than an hourly rate. Exactly what we do is usually a new hire for production is hired at $ 10.00 per hour. After 90 days they are eligible for a production bonus which nearly every week will add about 3 bucks an hour to their pay and at the end of the year we have profit sharing which requires a certain profit before it does get paid but also increases as our profit increases. This year we payed out about 60 grand, I believe, split among 10-12 people. After a few years their hourly pay may go up. So right now I have about 5 people making 10 bucks an hour, one making 13, one making 14 or 15 and one making 17 or 18, (plus bonuses of course) Now if the minimum wage went up to $ 15.00 that would affect all but one or two however if the guys currently making 10 bucks an hour are moved up to 15, those making 13 bucks an hour are not going to be happy moving up to 15 are they? No, I would have to move them up to maybe 18 and the one making 17 or 18 would have to go up to $ 22.00 or so, right? So then it isn't just affecting the guys struggling to feed their family. It will effect all employees and many other companies would be in the same boat.
So my first thought was that my payroll would go from about a half million a year to about 800,000 a year. So, maybe I could increase prices enough to cover all of that. But then my employee taxes would also go up since they are making more money so that adds another 50 grand or so to my expenses. It would seem logical to me that if my costs are going up by $ 350,000 a year and to come out even I would have to increase prices about 20% or more assuming that the higher prices did not reduce sales. But then assuming other companies would be in the same boat and that they may also have to increase prices by 20% or so then it seems logical to me that my material costs could well go up by 20% just as easily. Now if they go up by 20% then I need to add another 20-30% to cover my higher costs there so we are now looking at having to increase prices maybe 50-60% just to stay even. Since most of my competitors are in the USA they would also need to raise prices by 50-60% to cover this increase so I would remain competitive and it would not be a big deal, right? We we export a lot of stuff and that increase would probably take us out of that business since we would not be competitive in the world market place any more.
Now that brings me to this question. If we did have to raise prices by 50% to cover the increased in minimum wage and if most companies had to do the same is someone making 10 bucks an hour really better off if they make 15 bucks an hour and have to pay 50% more for everything they buy?
While the calculation may hold truth for your busness there is still a logical fallacy.
First of all, a minimum wage is to keep employees a little above the poverty line. This does mean that in NYC the minimum wage would need to be higher as where you are located.
As for raising the prices, that would depend on the part that labour plays in the cost price. For a company that has labour as main cost price would rise more, companies where labour is a small part would just need to rise 5% or less.
Calculating it ro Euro, a $15 minimum wage does seem too high, knowing that the minimum wage in my country is currently around $12 and cost of living a lot higher.
-
While this may be a fun topic to masticate, it is truly verbal masturbation.
That's a pretty good description about your thread and quest to engage some more scammers.
-
While the calculation may hold truth for your busness there is still a logical fallacy.
First of all, a minimum wage is to keep employees a little above the poverty line. This does mean that in NYC the minimum wage would need to be higher as where you are located.
As for raising the prices, that would depend on the part that labour plays in the cost price. For a company that has labour as main cost price would rise more, companies where labour is a small part would just need to rise 5% or less.
Calculating it ro Euro, a $15 minimum wage does seem too high, knowing that the minimum wage in my country is currently around $12 and cost of living a lot higher.
What is the average wage per hour back in Putin's Russia? Are there safety nets for the poor in Russia like there are in the USA?
-
What is the average wage per hour back in Putin's Russia? Are there safety nets for the poor in Russia like there are in the USA?
Let's not go there. If you wish to know, there is a minimum wage in Russia, however except for pensioners if you do not work you do not eat. On the other hand, it is very easy to be self-sufficient in Russia where you will need just a few roubles a month. Providing you live more than one hour away from the big cities.
-
Let's not go there. If you wish to know, there is a minimum wage in Russia, however except for pensioners if you do not work you do not eat. On the other hand, it is very easy to be self-sufficient in Russia where you will need just a few roubles a month. Providing you live more than one hour away from the big cities.
And what is that minimum wage? Let's compare the minimum wage in Russia, along with the cost of renting an apartment in a medium to large sized city in Russia, as well as any government hand outs such as food stamps etc. versus the minimum wage and other such in the USA.
Or, like you said, "Let's not go there". In other words you like to dish it out, but you don't want to take the same medicine. Is that right? You still want E. Ukraine to be controlled by Moscow like it is now?
-
And what is that minimum wage? Let's compare the minimum wage in Russia, along with the cost of renting an apartment in a medium to large sized city in Russia, as well as any government hand outs such as food stamps etc. versus the minimum wage and other such in the USA.
Or, like you said, "Let's not go there". In other words you like to dish it out, but you don't want to take the same medicine. Is that right? You still want E. Ukraine to be controlled by Moscow like it is now?
Do you believe Russia has the same standard of living, economy en economic potential as the USA?
Remember I am not Russian and have shown the situation in my country througout the topic. So I am taking as much as dishing out.
I feel I can hold the USA at least to equal standards as the Netherlands. Simply because the Americans tend to hold themselve to the highest standards and wish to be on the top of the lists.
I do not hold Russia to that standard... yet.
-
Do you believe Russia has the same standard of living, economy en economic potential as the USA?
Remember I am not Russian and have shown the situation in my country througout the topic. So I am taking as much as dishing out.
I feel I can hold the USA at least to equal standards as the Netherlands. Simply because the Americans tend to hold themselve to the highest standards and wish to be on the top of the lists.
I do not hold Russia to that standard... yet.
The Netherlands is a Socialist country. The USA is not and hopefully never will be. :popcorn:
-
wrong again
We are a socialist country and like all socialist countries, we are all Soviet varying only in degree.
-
The Netherlands is a Socialist country. The USA is not and hopefully never will be. :popcorn:
Well as I mentioned before, to the American view all of Europe is socilist. Our most extreme right party the PYY of Geert Wilders would fit to the left of Obama and even the French Front national would not match programs with the Republicans.
However most of our programs were created under Christian or Liberal led coalistions.
Just in case some americans do not know, our pariliament has 150 seats, during elections each pf the 15 parties partaking can earn seats, meaning that in total about 10 to 12 parties are in the Parliament. As it almost never happens that a single party earns over 75 seats, a government is formed by a coalition of parties, which often leads to coalitions that amaze foreigners.
Currently we have a liveral-socialist-democrat government, which according to polls will not be re-elected. After elections it will likely be a liberal-Christian colaistion as the extreme right is left out of negotiations for government.
-
wrong again
We are a socialist country and like all socialist countries, we are all Soviet varying only in degree.
We are not Socialist yet. Hopefully with a Republican Congress coming in January and a Republican President in 2016 this country will abolish all Socialist junk which was approved by Obama and get back to our roots.
-
ahh okayy
We have too many wimps in our ranks. There is serious talk about minimum wage hikes (I say a billion dollars) and our response is "its not going to happen" when it should be, I'm sorry but we abolished it or we reduced it to a penny an hour.
FT hates our dollar, but does he want it replaced? No. He wants it destroyed and the wimps on this board and in Congress are too scared to tell him not NO but F NO.
-
I hope to get $ 59.000 for it. I am attaching a photo of this one which might give you an idea of what 60 grand will buy here. It won't win any beauty contests but it is a nice clean serviceable house and actually the house I grew up in.
What are the yearly property taxes for this house ?
-
FT hates our dollar, but does he want it replaced? No. He wants it destroyed and the wimps on this board and in Congress are too scared to tell him not NO but F NO.
Now you are just being silly again....if the dollar were to tank, my future plans would be ruined....I need the dollar to stay at a reasonable level....I'm concerned that it may not though....but for now, all is well, real well...It has been years since I've gotten as much bang for the buck in S. America....and it is still rising
Fathertime!
-
What are the yearly property taxes for this house ?
Our taxes here are pretty reasonable. I pay $ 1315.05 a year on the house for sale for $ 59,000. For the small house I pay $ 760.55 and for the house I live in about $ 1800.00
By the way talking about real estate bargains, I paid $ 3,100.00 for the house I am living in. I bought it for taxes. There was another $ 800 in transfer taxes however. I have put about $ 35,000 in remodeling it. When I first bought it I had it as a rental property but it had more potential than the house I was living in at the time (the one for sale for $ 59,000) so after renting it for a while and remodeling I moved in there. The tax assessment on the house I bought for taxes was 65 grand at the time I bought it. That one will likely go up for sale after we sell the one for sale now and we plan to do some house shopping. It will make my wife's day when we do sell that house and can start shopping. I am happy where we are but my wife would like something newer. I am hoping to get at least 80 grand for that house but who knows. Whatever it is it is.
-
wrong againWe are a socialist country and like all socialist countries, we are all Soviet varying only in degree.
We are not Socialist yet. Hopefully with a Republican Congress coming in January and a Republican President in 2016 this country will abolish all Socialist junk which was approved by Obama and get back to our roots.
Wrong both of you. This is a country of ignorants and misinformed ready to follow the first idiot who says the things they want to hear.
-
Our taxes here are pretty reasonable. I pay $ 1315.05 a year on the house for sale for $ 59,000. For the small house I pay $ 760.55 and for the house I live in about $ 1800.00
By the way talking about real estate bargains, I paid $ 3,100.00 for the house I am living in. I bought it for taxes. There was another $ 800 in transfer taxes however. I have put about $ 35,000 in remodeling it. When I first bought it I had it as a rental property but it had more potential than the house I was living in at the time (the one for sale for $ 59,000) so after renting it for a while and remodeling I moved in there. The tax assessment on the house I bought for taxes was 65 grand at the time I bought it. That one will likely go up for sale after we sell the one for sale now and we plan to do some house shopping. It will make my wife's day when we do sell that house and can start shopping. I am happy where we are but my wife would like something newer. I am hoping to get at least 80 grand for that house but who knows. Whatever it is it is.
Damn, compared to Upstate NY you guys are being overtaxed!
-
Wrong both of you. This is a country of ignorants and misinformed ready to follow the first idiot who says the things they want to hear.
Jonathan Gruber and Obamacare proved that very soundly. The ignorant of the World will always believe Marxist fairy tales.
-
Jonathan Gruber and Obamacare proved that very soundly. The ignorant of the World will always believe Marxist fairy tales.
I can always count on you to make my case. ;D
-
I can always count on you to make my case. ;D
No doubt you want to distance yourself and all other elected officials from the statements of Jonathan Gruber. Jonathan Gruber would like to distance himself from his own statements of which he claimed to have a faulty memory about. Nancy Pelosi and the Whitehouse all wanting to distance themselves from a consultant they hired.
So do you admit that the ACA aka "Obamacare" was a gigantic financial boondoggle? It doesn't much matter to me what you think. All of Obama's Marxist attempts to destroy this country are going to be undone.
-
Damn, compared to Upstate NY you guys are being overtaxed!
My strong impression was that NY had very high property taxes, comparatively speaking....so I did some further reading on the subject....it looks like there are various property tax rates in the different counties in NY.
Fathertime!
-
Real estate taxes are usually local taxes for the city, county and school district. They can vary a lot in a state. Even here the closer I would be to Pittsburgh the higher the tax rates would be. We have hopes to be house hunting soon and some of the places we would consider have very high tax rates. I would think there are places in upstate NY that have low taxes. I have spent a lot of time in upstate NY and have no reason to think there are not some reasonable places to live but of course get close to NYC and the taxes would be killers.
-
Real estate taxes are usually local taxes for the city, county and school district. They can vary a lot in a state. Even here the closer I would be to Pittsburgh the higher the tax rates would be. We have hopes to be house hunting soon and some of the places we would consider have very high tax rates. I would think there are places in upstate NY that have low taxes. I have spent a lot of time in upstate NY and have no reason to think there are not some reasonable places to live but of course get close to NYC and the taxes would be killers.
Well, that also depends on the lot size, the square footage of the house and rural vs. suburb.
Anything Westchester County and south is prohibitive.
Now, a house comparable to the one you showed would go for about $175,000 and taxes would be in the range of $1.5K to $3.5K in my neck of the woods.
The house we are planning is going to bring our taxes in the range of $8.5K to $10K.