Minimum Wage debate - USA

[lordtiberius]

Maybe it is a fact, but it is not a relevant fact....It would make as much sense as me saying "you have giant flopping moobs".... during a discussion about how to order pay per view on cable. 


Fathertime!

So only you decide what is or isn't relevant?

The guy pays his son slightly above minimum wage yet he imports this sweet young thing to supplant his his mother and how this escapes you when it comes to his credibility is after all no surprise.

Unanswered is whether he hires American citizens or illegals, whether he provides health care, which you commies should care about but situationally don't.

Whatevs dude

[fathertime]

So only you decide what is or isn't relevant?

The guy pays his son slightly above minimum wage yet he imports this sweet young thing to supplant his his mother

Whatevs dude

These are 2 entirely separate issues.  What does one have to do with the other?  Why are you asserting anything about roles and supplanting? I don't see ANY relevance to a discussion on minimum wage...I really don't. Yes I have decided it is not relevant and probably not even accurate.   


Fathertime!

[LiveFromUkraine]

If McDonalds start paying their employees $15 instead of the current minimum wage, they will start charging more for their food and in turn, they will have less customers. Who wants to pay premium for a simple burger? If they have less customers, they will have to trim down their work force which backs the argument jobs will be lost. McDonalds can't charge what better brand restaurants charge for food. They will be out of business. McDonalds is not and should not be the final destination of our youth looking to get into the job market. McDonalds should be a stepping stone for those to move onto bigger and better things. Yes, there will be many who struggle to getting to their final destination but hard work never killed anybody.

There is a price ceiling on these types of things.  Companies may or may not raise their prices and it probably won't be a significant enough of a raise to warrant "premium" pricing as you put it.

There are other McDonalds, in other countries, that cost more than here and they seem to be doing quite well. 


You also forgot the upside where people will have more money to spend. 

Studies look at what happened when cities raised minimum wage

Businesses absorbed the costs through lower turnover, small price increases at restaurants, which have a high concentration of low-wage workers, and higher worker productivity, the researchers found.

Potential price increases at restaurants was the biggest negative impact identified by the Berkeley researchers. The cost of eating out went up 2 to 3 percent when the minimum wage rose 25 percent. That means dining out in Seattle could go up as much as 7 percent if the city goes to $15 an hour.

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2023116005_wageimpactsxml.html

[LiveFromUkraine]

These are 2 entirely separate issues.  What does one have to do with the other?  Why are you asserting anything about roles and supplanting? I don't see ANY relevance to a discussion on minimum wage...I really don't. Yes I have decided it is not relevant and probably not even accurate.   


Fathertime!

The guy is crazy, that's why.  It's hard to understand half the things he says. 

[AC]

Well let's here your winner's speech then!  How do we uproot 25 million people and families and what for?


Fathertime!

Read the link which I provided and all will be clear.  All it takes is a backbone, real concern for LEGAL immigrants as well as Americans born here, and some buses and a few ships.

[AC]

There isn't much any more.  About once a year a long term manufacturing business shuts down.  Armstrong Cork was the last, a year ago.  Our next door neighbor a steel processor that used to employ 275 shut the year before that and the plant has been leveled.  They are talking about putting in low income housing there which is not the kind of next door neighbor for my business that I would prefer. 

The only thing that has helped the area is the Marcellus Shale.

 

[lordtiberius]

The guy is crazy, that's why.  It's hard to understand half the things he says.

Crazy huh?  And yet you admit you aren't smart enough to keep up. . .

[Turboguy]

How has the Obamacare mandate effected your business if any?

Well LT Obamacare has been a big worry for me.  The big increase (101%) kicks in Jan 1.  Since we have added some employees my guess is that it will up our expenses about $ 60-70,0000 a year which is more than our profit in many of the past years.  Due to some flukes in weather at the moment our business is way up so short term we can handle it but we work hard to keep our expenses down and that is a pretty big hit.  Perhaps we have spoiled our employees by having really good health care in the past where they could pick their Dr and only have a $ 10.00 co pay as well as having vision and dental coverage.  We could go to a crappy program where the employees have to pay all but catastrophic things and get back to our costs as they were for last year but I really hate to do that and we have some employees whose families have health issues and would not be happy.   Obama Care has the potential to put us out of business but I will fight hard to keep that from happening.

[Muzh]

Don't sell yourself short.  Billy's argument doesn't even address this issue.  And isn't he in the construction business.  His son is older than his wife too.  Curious.

So what is your obsession with other people's wives and children?


Move away from the keyboard and take your pills.

[Muzh]

Maybe it is a fact, but it is not a relevant fact....It would make as much sense as me saying "you have giant flopping moobs".... during a discussion about how to order pay per view on cable. 


Fathertime!

That means it is time for a "bro."

[Muzh]

AC, out of curiosity. Are you in the top 1%? 5%? 10%?

[lordtiberius]

Well LT Obamacare has been a big worry for me.  The big increase (101%) kicks in Jan 1.  Since we have added some employees my guess is that it will up our expenses about $ 60-70,0000 a year which is more than our profit in many of the past years.  Due to some flukes in weather at the moment our business is way up so short term we can handle it but we work hard to keep our expenses down and that is a pretty big hit.  Perhaps we have spoiled our employees by having really good health care in the past where they could pick their Dr and only have a $ 10.00 co pay as well as having vision and dental coverage.  We could go to a crappy program where the employees have to pay all but catastrophic things and get back to our costs as they were for last year but I really hate to do that and we have some employees whose families have health issues and would not be happy.   Obama Care has the potential to put us out of business but I will fight hard to keep that from happening.

It must be annoying when idiots impose higher costs on your business in defiance of the market.  We have NO economy with out manufacturing.

[fathertime]

Read the link which I provided and all will be clear.  All it takes is a backbone, real concern for LEGAL immigrants as well as Americans born here, and some buses and a few ships.

Many of our profitable businesses have rolled out the welcome mat and our last several presidents and other elected representatives have turned a blind eye, so now we have this issue.  There is no will to start removing massive amounts of people.  The country would have a war if we tried to remove or attempt a war of attrition on 10's of millions of Illegal immigrants, we simply waited WAY too long to deal with the problem the way you are advocating.  Therefore we can do other things, like live together and make the best of it.  There are countless illegal members of our society that have had children with citizens, and all those children are also legal, and the country (as a whole) will not stand for these families being separated at this late juncture. What I would like to see, but may never happen, is an effective border and system, as I don't see why we HAVE to have the border as porous as it remains. 




Among other measures we could take, we have the manpower and the technology to run an effective border, but the political will seems to be to spend the money on the military and station them around the world instead. 


Fathertime!   

[AC]

Many of our profitable businesses have rolled out the welcome mat and our last several presidents and other elected representatives have turned a blind eye, so now we have this issue.  There is no will to start removing massive amounts of people.  The country would have a war if we tried to remove or attempt a war of attrition on 10's of millions of Illegal immigrants, we simply waited WAY too long to deal with the problem the way you are advocating.  Therefore we can do other things, like live together and make the best of it.  There are countless illegal members of our society that have had children with citizens, and all those children are also legal, and the country (as a whole) will not stand for these families being separated at this late juncture. What I would like to see, but may never happen, is an effective border and system, as I don't see why we HAVE to have the border as porous as it remains. 




Among other measures we could take, we have the manpower and the technology to run an effective border, but the political will seems to be to spend the money on the military and station them around the world instead. 


Fathertime!

While I appreciate your answer and the thought that went into it, I believe you left out two important components.

1)  Your OP only deals with those who are here.  How to stop the massive run for the border that is still continuing, because of the mixed-messages of the Obama admin?

2)  I don't agree that there would be a war if it was done correctly.  First and foremost any and all who have gang tattoos and gang ties should be immediately returned.  When they are returned it should be at least 500 miles into the interior.

    a)  Those still here illegally can be given the option of paying a fine for breaking the law, and fill out paperwork to be guest workers.  They would never be permanent citizens because they broke the law and cut in line.  They would be allowed 8 months in country and must leave for a minimum of 4 months before returning on a new guest worker pass.  All others should leave voluntarily. 

[AC]

AC, out of curiosity. Are you in the top 1%? 5%? 10%?

If you are talking income the answer is no.  My upbringing was in a small rural town (it was before, but is not now) and I identify with blue collar values although I've worked more than a decade in a white collar world.

[fathertime]

While I appreciate your answer and the thought that went into it, I believe you left out two important components.

1)  Your OP only deals with those who are here.  How to stop the massive run for the border that is still continuing, because of the mixed-messages of the Obama admin?

2)  I don't agree that there would be a war if it was done correctly.  First and foremost any and all who have gang tattoos and gang ties should be immediately returned.  When they are returned it should be at least 500 miles into the interior.

    a)  Those still here illegally can be given the option of paying a fine for breaking the law, and fill out paperwork to be guest workers.  They would never be permanent citizens because they broke the law and cut in line.  They would be allowed 8 months in country and must leave for a minimum of 4 months before returning on a new guest worker pass.  All others should leave voluntarily.

I believe the ship has sailed....although I'd like to see all the violent gang members eradicated, none of this is going to happen.   The linked plan was done in the 1950's, our country is much different nowadays...it just wouldn't happen for many reasons...so we must deal in reality...


Can you imagine all the rancor and ill will that would be created by rounding up or intimidating millions to leave, some fighting kicking and screaming and all on video?  Right now the latin american and S. American countries are mostly somewhat friendly with us....One little talked about result from that sort of policy MIGHT be a unification in opposition to us....That, among the myriad of consequences from such a policy makes it just not worth it.....I continue to hold that GOING FORWARD we could do something very significant regarding the border and enforcement, but even that seems to be a bridge too far for our representatives and president's.   The vast majority of those that have climbed over the border are probably here to stay, for better or worse, but I think for now this country can absorb what we have. 


Fathertime!   

[lordtiberius]

No.  If anything support for OPERATION WET BACK and policy like that has increased in popularity with Obama and Ramos poisoning the well.

[AC]

No.  If anything support for OPERATION WET BACK and policy like that has increased in popularity with Obama and Ramos poisoning the well.

Absolutely.  The groundswell of irritation and frustration at our laws being violated and our borders not being secure cannot be overstated.  The legal citizens of this country are extremely fed-up with our government, and that includes RINO's who refuse to respect the will of the people. 

The gigantic problem though is that 96% of our media are left-wing hacks who don't report the true feelings of American citizens.  However just look at a recent vote in Oregon, a very liberal state, to see how the American people really feel about illegal immigration.

[fathertime]

No.  If anything support for OPERATION WET BACK and policy like that has increased in popularity with Obama and Ramos poisoning the well.

What is 'operation wet back'? 

Overall I think people want a resolution even if imperfect if going forward it will bring a 'return to order' (as the mods would say) to the border then most would accept it....I suspect.


Fathertime!   

[lordtiberius]

What is 'operation wet back'? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback

Do you live in a cave?  Google it.  It's free.

[fathertime]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback

Do you live in a cave?  Google it.  It's free.

Thank you for providing the link...the name of the operation threw me off, as it just didn't sound right.


Fathertime!   

[lordtiberius]

Absolutely.  The groundswell of irritation and frustration at our laws being violated and our borders not being secure cannot be overstated.  The legal citizens of this country are extremely fed-up with our government, and that includes RINO's who refuse to respect the will of the people. 

The gigantic problem though is that 96% of our media are left-wing hacks who don't report the true feelings of American citizens.  However just look at a recent vote in Oregon, a very liberal state, to see how the American people really feel about illegal immigration.

I was an amnesty guy until the President implemented his policy.  I felt, I still these people are second class citizens.  But the Democrats and the allies (the domestic enemies of America like FT) are using these people to establish an undemocratic hegemony through voter fraud.  The poor people are as usual the toilet paper for these monsters. 

[fathertime]

I was an amnesty guy until the President implemented his policy.  I felt, I still these people are second class citizens.  But the Democrats and the allies (the domestic enemies of America like FT) are using these people to establish an undemocratic hegemony through voter fraud.  The poor people are as usual the toilet paper for these monsters.

...
That is silliness...if anything the Democrats will be implementing policies against my interests...Treating these people and their family's reasonably doesn't make anybody a domestic enemy.  I'm not seeing why you were once for amnesty and now against it, you suddenly sound Kerry like. 


Fathertime!   

[lordtiberius]

...
That is silliness...  I'm not seeing why you were once for amnesty and now against it, you suddenly sound Kerry like. 


Fathertime!

That's too bad.

if anything the Democrats will be implementing policies against my interests...Treating these people and their family's reasonably doesn't make anybody a domestic enemy. 

yeah sure

[BillyB]

Hey Billy, if you employ amnestied illegal immigrants, do you have to provide them health care?

I don't have to provide anybody with health care. I don't have a big company.


If our government gives amnesty to illegal immigrants, they aren't illegal anymore. If they work for a company that provides health care, that company must provide for the newly legal immigrants too.

  I see more loafing and goofing off among high earners, then I do with the lower level workers. 

Some days I find myself pushing a pen more than dirt. Lower level workers do the grunt work. When they're older, hopefully their work gets easier and they get rewarded with more pay. Before getting to the top, everybody should start at the bottom.

There are other McDonalds, in other countries, that cost more than here and they seem to be doing quite well. 


You also forgot the upside where people will have more money to spend. 

People have more to spend so things cost more. I understand our European friends disgust with how low our minimum wage is but our dollars go farther. I think Americans eat more and own more junk than anybody.


In McDonalds in America, one can buy a burger, fries, chicken sandwich, chicken nuggets, sausage muffin, breakfast burrito, or a large soda for a dollar each. Water is free. A homeless person can eat 3 meals a day with water for $3 plus tax. Is this possible in any McDonalds outside of America? Minimum wage goes further here than in other places. Gas is cheaper, food is cheaper, products(many thanks to China) are cheaper.

Studies look at what happened when cities raised minimum wage

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2023116005_wageimpactsxml.html[/font]

Washington State has the highest minimum wage in America. Seattle is an expensive place to live. People also make more and can pay more so raising the minimum wage there won't have a big impact compared to other places. Cost of living is more in Seattle. Seattle's minimum wage may not go as far as the minimum wage, which is less, where Turboguy lives. Turboguy said $500 a month get a person a decent place to live. $1200 may get a person a decent place to live in Seattle. As everybody's wages go up in Seattle, so will cost of living and we'll ride the circle again and again.


People who earn minimum wage accounts for 2.6% of all employees. It's okay for people to start at the bottom before working their way up. Chart below shows minimum wage moving around the same pace as inflation.


http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/09/08/who-makes-minimum-wage/