Is Ukraine Strategically Important?

[GQBlues]

That depends on what definition you adopt.  If it is the Krauthammer definition, then I agree.  If it is preemptive strikes, then I also agree.  If it is the PNAC solution, which Bush himself referred to (though not the PNAC document), then I disagree.




As for Ukraine, you will never convince me the US was behind Euromaidan.

Convincing you was never my concern as it doesn't change history nor does it deter anything in the future. Me, I simply *read* known historical patterns to look at the overall  scheme of things. They're far more telling than any tabloid, or anecdotal ramblings.

What was it again that our Feds called the attack against US citizens in Waco, Texas? *Showtime*? LOL...They were over a hundred Americans and no one there were breaking any law. Ukrainians? LOL.

[GQBlues]

... don't see how providing funds to ensure Ukraine (and Russia, as the US provided funds to Russia after the collapse of the USSR as well) succeeds in its quest to establish democratic institutions is an exercise of hegemonic power.

LOL. Aid to Russia...

If you're talking about Perestroika era monies, Google Megaton to Megawatts. Therein lies your US financial assistance.

If you're talking about Nuland's USaid, Russia said no thanks and saw it for what it was..September 2012 (date pretty significant yet?), Putin gave Nuland and her *humanitarian mission and democracy spreading* an ultimatum to leave town (Moscow) by October 1, 2012. Then happy Nuland went to announce the Chevron deal back to the States sometime around late October/November. Then flew back to Ukraine to bake some cookies. All other events that follow is already highly sanitized for everyone's consumption.

This is but one article that reported the *evil* of Putin for denying democracy to take hold in Russia.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/sep/18/usaid-moscow-putin-protest

[Boethius]

But the US did provide foreign aid to Russia until 2012. 

[GQBlues]

The benevolent USAid, yes...of course...

http://www.usaid.gov/who-we-are/organization/bureaus/bureau-democracy-conflict-and-humanitarian-assistance/office-4

Our Work

CMC manages the agency's day-to-day interface with DoD, including coordination on policy, planning, training, exercises and communications. It facilitates USAID input to key DoD doctrine such as the Quadrennial Defense Review and the Guidance for the Employement of the Force, as well as into operational plans, handbooks and joint publications. In addition, CMC produces familiarization courses on working with the military for USAID personnel and on the objectives and structure of both DoD and USAID.

The office coordinates with the Department of Defense (DoD) through a robust personnel exchange, which allows access and transparency in policy, planning and training. The agency hosts military officers at our headquarters, and USAID Foreign Service officers are embedded at  six the Unified Combatant Commands (U.S. Africa Command, U.S. Central Command, U.S. European Command, U.S. Pacific Command, U.S. Special Operations Command, U.S. Southern Command and with the Joint Staff at the Pentagon. These USAID  personnel advise the four-star combatant commanders on development matters and ensure close cooperation in planning, field operations and exercises. In turn, military representatives from the COCOMs serve within CMC and provide day-to-day coordination and management.


Spreading *democracy* one nation at a time under the new face of hegemony. 

Now don't get me wrong. The underlying ambition is wonderful, and I love this part of the best country in the world - my country. It's just that at some point, certain countries or regions are simply NONE of our business, nor do we understand them (it) enough to have us in there meddling with their politics, culture, religion, or beliefs.

The Middle East is a wonderful theater with this point.
 

[CanadaMan]

Although the U.S. has given funds to Ukraine, there is no doubt, what, exactly, is the strategic benefit to America in funding NGO's, think tanks, and the foundations of democracy in Ukraine? 

Did you mean to write:

Although the U.S. has given funds to Ukraine no doubt, what exactly, is the strategic benefit to America in funding NGO's, think tanks, and the foundations of democracy in Ukraine?


I ask because reading your original I found it strange that there was a question mark at the end of the sentence.

[fathertime]

Spreading *democracy* one nation at a time under the new face of hegemony. 

Now don't get me wrong. The underlying ambition is wonderful, and I love this part of the best country in the world - my country. It's just that at some point, certain countries or regions are simply NONE of our business, nor do we understand them (it) enough to have us in there meddling with their politics, culture, religion, or beliefs.

The Middle East is a wonderful theater with this point.

Yup....well said....this place is still a very good place to live for me too....how about we stay the hell out of everybody else's arse?... instead of creating worldwide enemies which could someday cause of some real pain.


Fathertime!       

[Muzh]

 If it is the Krauthammer definition, then I agree.

The problem with this guy is that his wheelchair has a hot nail up his ass.


Seriously. He reminds me of Dr. Strangelove.

[Faux Pas]

The problem with this guy is that his wheelchair has a hot nail up his ass.


Seriously. He reminds me of Dr. Strangelove.

Obviously you'd not be surprised to know I am an admirer and fan of Krauthammer. Quite likely one of the best minds on current  and world events of our time. Forget he's a contributor on your fav news network.    Read some of his books/writings, then make up your mind. You'll likely be surprised how non-political he is

[BillyB]

A.   Sally gives Peter 400 dollars because she genuinely wants to help Peter and doesn't care to get anything in return aside from normal behavior and treatment

That's nice

B.   Sally (the contractor) gives Peter 400 dollars because she wants to assure that Peter chooses her bid over her competition's bids...her work is not better, but by bribing the right person she gets the work. The other contractor starves because he didn't think it was necessary to bribe or simply didn't have the money to bribe Peter.

That's not illegal but may be unethical to some people.

C.  Sally (the upset housewife) gives Peter 400 dollars because she doesn't like Sam for various reasons.  She wants Peter to not speak with Sam again and hire somebody to rough Sam up.   Peter wouldn't normally do this sort of thing, but he has been losing a lot of work lately and is rather desperate for money.

Illegal at home but on the international stage, probably not. Russia supplies arms to our enemies and sometimes expects them to use it and we supply arms to Russia's enemies and sometimes expect them to use it. We live in an imperfect world. America didn't write the playbook but we need to play accordingly or we don't exist.

Because he refused to sign a treaty with the EU.

That probably explains a lot of your beliefs. Who in their right mind would oust a president over one policy they disagree with? That's why you think West Ukrainians are fanatics. Yanukovych was always suspected of fraud. He hurt himself imprisoning his competition. The Orange Revolution came about after election fraud he was involved in, not to mention his closest competition barely surviving an assassination attempt. He was a convicted criminal. He has a lot of dirty laundry. Refusing to sign the treaty was the straw that broke the camels back but don't mistake it for being the only straw.

As for Putin having influence in Holland, he could not do much worse as the clowns we have.... in fact many things might improve.

Ukrainians would gladly trade real estate with you. If Holland were next door to Russia, the country would probably be in the same sorry state Ukraine is in.

[fathertime]

Quote from: fathertime on Today at 07:33:14 AMA.   Sally gives Peter 400 dollars because she genuinely wants to help Peter and doesn't care to get anything in return aside from normal behavior and treatment


That's nice

Quote from: fathertime on Today at 07:33:14 AMB.   Sally (the contractor) gives Peter 400 dollars because she wants to assure that Peter chooses her bid over her competition's bids...her work is not better, but by bribing the right person she gets the work. The other contractor starves because he didn't think it was necessary to bribe or simply didn't have the money to bribe Peter.



That's not illegal but may be unethical to some people.

Quote from: fathertime on Today at 07:33:14 AMC.  Sally (the upset housewife) gives Peter 400 dollars because she doesn't like Sam for various reasons.  She wants Peter to not speak with Sam again and hire somebody to rough Sam up.   Peter wouldn't normally do this sort of thing, but he has been losing a lot of work lately and is rather desperate for money.


Illegal at home but on the international stage, probably not. Russia supplies arms to our enemies and sometimes expects them to use it and we supply arms to Russia's enemies and sometimes expect them to use it. We live in an imperfect world. America didn't write the playbook but we need to play accordingly or we don't exist.



Billy thanks for the reply....the response you gave is probably very realistic....Basically at times we *the USA* are bribing other nations...we are also harming 3 party nations with these bribes as we get the contracts, and they do not, which keeps them in a lower tier, or even poverty, while we continue to enjoy a very pleasant standard of living....In some cases we foment fighting and in those cases people do die at a minimum indirectly because of us...sometimes directly....


All that being said..I get it that this is how the world runs currently...rather unfairly, but nothing is perfect....   I just find it interesting that several posters were so "Appalled" and began figuratively clutching their pearls, because Russia is playing the same game, albeit in their own fashion, as they don't have the resources *Yet* to do it as neatly/discreetly as we do.  It seems like it  is either incredibly hypocritical or straight ignorance that people are unable/unwilling to see things for the way they are.....and will demonize Russia while excusing the USA. 

Fathetime!  

[Gator]

What do you call a democracy?
A country where a president is chosen, and observers have agreed with the elections being fair does seem a democracy to me. Still as soon as the president does not follow the will of some countries, he becomes a dictator in international press. How is that democratic?

I have long ignored your advocacy of Putin.  However, you have reached a new high of ludicrousness with this statement.

Russia is a democracy?   A democracy is based only in part on the election process.  More important are the actions upon taking office and whether they adhere to democratic principles.  How can you consider a country a democracy if characterized by widespread corruption, restricted press freedoms, unequal and unfair application of the rule of law, no open dissent, autocratic decisions, imprisonment of opposing political candidates, etc????


I am sure at this moment you are watching your football team, gleefully awaiting for Robben to take a dive.  May the better team win. 

[Gator]

Boethius,  I agree with your premise.  Ukraine is not strategically important to the US.  Hence, we have done little and will do little to help Ukraine. Europe has more to gain, yet even Europe will not consider Ukraine important.   

Putin must be very frustrated wanting Russia and himself to be seen as a leading world power.   He wants to flex his muscle yet is limited to bullying little countries such as Georgia and Ukraine. 

[Anotherkiwi]

I have long ignored your advocacy of Putin.  However, you have reached a new high of ludicrousness with this statement.

Russia is a democracy?   A democracy is based only in part on the election process.  More important are the actions upon taking office and whether they adhere to democratic principles.  How can you consider a country a democracy if characterized by widespread corruption, restricted press freedoms, unequal and unfair application of the rule of law, no open dissent, autocratic decisions, imprisonment of opposing political candidates, etc????


I am sure at this moment you are watching your football team, gleefully awaiting for Robben to take a dive.  May the better team win.

Gator, I think Shadow was referring to Ukraine, not to Russia.  Even he could not possibly support the premise of Russia being a democracy.

[Anotherkiwi]

All that being said..I get it that this is how the world runs currently...rather unfairly, but nothing is perfect....   I just find it interesting that several posters were so "Appalled" and began figuratively clutching their pearls, because Russia is playing the same game, albeit in their own fashion, as they don't have the resources *Yet* to do it as neatly/discreetly as we do.  It seems like it  is either incredibly hypocritical or straight ignorance that people are unable/unwilling to see things for the way they are.....and will demonize Russia while excusing the USA.

Fathertime!

This is where your "US-centric" blinkers prevent you from seeing outside your own country.  Unlike the Americans that you are presumably referring to, we (the rest of the world) don't excuse the USA when it does these things.  We're therefore not hypocrites - we will blame anybody (or any country) that acts in this way.

Of course, according to GQBlues, everybody outside America is so insignificant  that nobody will see or hear our opinions (or take any notice of them if they do). 

[jone]

Anotherkiwi - Did you say something? 

[fathertime]

This is where your "US-centric" blinkers prevent you from seeing outside your own country.  Unlike the Americans that you are presumably referring to, we (the rest of the world) don't excuse the USA when it does these things.  We're therefore not hypocrites - we will blame anybody (or any country) that acts in this way.

Of course, according to GQBlues, everybody outside America is so insignificant  that nobody will see or hear our opinions (or take any notice of them if they do). 

Ha! You got me there Kiwi. 

I don't hear much out if New Zealand,  I assume you tend to your own business.  Hey what would you say is the biggest problem your country faces currently?

Fathertime!

[Anotherkiwi]

Anotherkiwi - Did you say something?

 

[Anotherkiwi]

Ha! You got me there Kiwi. 

I don't hear much out if New Zealand,  I assume you tend to your own business.  Hey what would you say is the biggest problem your country faces currently?

Fathertime!

We don't have any    - that's why New Zealand is generally referred to as "Godzone" or "Paradise!"  Seriously, it would be nice to get a seat on the Security Council of the United Nations, as we're trying to do at the moment.  It's been a while since our last time as a rotating member.


Biggest problem (in Auckland, at least) is probably the cost of housing - average price of a property now is well over $600,000 and climbing rapidly.  Any time you think you've got enough for a deposit, you're wrong.  Our Reserve Bank has told lenders that only 10-20% of their new mortgages can be for more than 80% of the purchase price - nearly every lender is interpreting that as "we won't lend more than 80% to anyone," no matter how easily the potential customer may be able to service the loan.  As a result there are hardly any first-home buyers who can qualify for a loan - it's expecting way too much of the average twenty-somethings to have $120-150k sitting in their savings account!  Even a 10% deposit is way beyond most.

[Shadow]

I have long ignored your advocacy of Putin.  However, you have reached a new high of ludicrousness with this statement.

Russia is a democracy?   A democracy is based only in part on the election process.  More important are the actions upon taking office and whether they adhere to democratic principles.  How can you consider a country a democracy if characterized by widespread corruption, restricted press freedoms, unequal and unfair application of the rule of law, no open dissent, autocratic decisions, imprisonment of opposing political candidates, etc????


I am sure at this moment you are watching your football team, gleefully awaiting for Robben to take a dive.  May the better team win.

The properties you name can be found in any country, including the US and the Netherlands.
For me a democracy is a country where there is a system in place of choosing representatives who create and approve laws. In its optimal form there is a short line between people and government, and the government exists of multiple political groups.
In so far Russia conforms to that.

Putin got permission from the parliament for his actions, and in the parliament there is opposition. Elections are held, and there is a program to fight corruption that goes as far as installing payment terminals in police cars to facilitate easier fine payment.
Unfortunately media only listen to a very small group that makes a lot of Western noise. When you have some time, use it to check the background of all there people and their ideologies.
It is like Obama and Bush are running mates for president: nationalists, liberals, communists and stalinists are joined in one party, reason for their very limited success.

There is true opposition in Russia, and in fact by the next elections it may show internationally. After all Putin knows he has no eternal life and needs to form the right candidate to tranfer power to. If he can do that by making the candidate win against him, which will deliver goodwill from the international politics, he will.

[GQBlues]

A little injection of reality here, Shadow...

A democracy isn't shown on a nation for having the ability of its citizens to choose their own leaders from  *multiple political groups*. Case in point, Ukraine already have that and had done just that - but our presence there in the midst of this crisis is supposed to help them established real democracy according to *our* version. Did you miss this very simple fact?

A real democratic nation is a nation who can orchestrate Trojan horse-like programs, like USAid for example, built to spread kindness and assistance upon a nation's populace so that its citizens can clearly see the benevolent actions Americans are capable of doing. Their people begin to see how wonderful our system is. Then when that starts to work, we begin to inject monetary support to that country's political opposition and soon we not only have a *political party within that country who we feel have the same *values* we do, we also got the populace support(we've really worked hard to get that).

What will start as a small, harmless, protest will slowly creep-up to masses that can occupy squares, centers, etc...next thing you know, you have unrest of epic national proportions, then whammo baby! It's a riot!!!! The people raises their arms and scream *WE WANT DEMOCRACY!!!* in unison! Same movie shown over and over again in any national theaters near you..

Then bang...the next step is open that country's doors to our bankers, investors, capitalist cronies, KFC, Starbuck, MikiDees, AA, Delta, USAir, Chase, Visa, MC,

USA-USA-USA!!!

A country didn't even have to have any military significance. There can be 11 people in that country and it won't matter. All they have to do is sign-up and subscribe to our wonderful NATO program with no annual fees. Sort of like Russia's *roof* but without the annoying mob fees, you know...that nation will be just fine as long as they maintain the program *we* designed for them and they do everything *we* say...

That's democracy baby; and no one on our planet is better at exercising this than yours truly.

Spreading *democracy* upon our world one nation at a time...

[fathertime]

A little injection of reality here, Shadow...

A democracy isn't shown on a nation for having the ability of its citizens to choose their own leaders from  *multiple political groups*. Case in point, Ukraine already have that and had done just that - but our presence there in the midst of this crisis is supposed to help them established real democracy according to *our* version. Did you miss this very simple fact?

A real democratic nation is a nation who can orchestrate Trojan horse-like programs, like USAid for example, built to spread kindness and assistance upon a nation's populace so that its citizens can clearly see the benevolent actions Americans are capable of doing. Their people begin to see how wonderful our system is. Then when that starts to work, we begin to inject monetary support to that country's political opposition and soon we not only have a *political party within that country who we feel have the same *values* we do, we also got the populace support(we've really worked hard to get that).

What will start as a small, harmless, protest will slowly creep-up to masses that can occupy squares, centers, etc...next thing you know, you have unrest of epic national proportions, then whammo baby! It's a riot!!!! The people raises their arms and scream *WE WANT DEMOCRACY!!!* in unison! Same movie shown over and over again in any national theaters near you..

Then bang...the next step is open that country's doors to our bankers, investors, capitalist cronies, KFC, Starbuck, MikiDees, AA, Delta, USAir, Chase, Visa, MC,

USA-USA-USA!!!

A country didn't even have to have any military significance. There can be 11 people in that country and it won't matter. All they have to do is sign-up and subscribe to our wonderful NATO program with no annual fees. Sort of like Russia's *roof* but without the annoying mob fees, you know...that nation will be just fine as long as they maintain the program *we* designed for them and they do everything *we* say...

That's democracy baby; and no one on our planet is better at exercising this than yours truly.

Spreading *democracy* upon our world one nation at a time...

This is a very good description of how to dominate a country in a 'civilized' and 'acceptable' way...foreign leaders that don't follow along wind up like Ghadafi...or Assad....


Fathertime!   

[GQBlues]

Speaking of strategic significance and how nations love/inviting USA unto their lands....so much so they overthrow presiding governments to make this happen.

Spreading democracy unto our world one nation at a time


"...The 1993 Apology Resolution publicly acknowledged and apologized for the United States’ involvement in the illegal overthrow of Queen Liliuokalani and the Kingdom of Hawaii in 1893, admitting that the United States violated Native Hawaiians’ right to self-determination and international law...."

LOL. *invites the US*... 

[fathertime]

Speaking of strategic significance and how nations love/inviting USA unto their lands....so much so they overthrow presiding governments to make this happen.

Spreading democracy unto our world one nation at a time


"...The 1993 Apology Resolution publicly acknowledged and apologized for the United States’ involvement in the illegal overthrow of Queen Liliuokalani and the Kingdom of Hawaii in 1893, admitting that the United States violated Native Hawaiians’ right to self-determination and international law...."

LOL. *invites the US*... 

You can point this out again and again, and provide example after example (some modern)… Now that ‘we got ours’  of all people we shouldn't be pointing fingers at other nation's 'barbarism'. 

Fathertime!   

[Misha]

The funding and support of terrorists in the Eastern regions has caused more anti Russian sentiment in Ukraine than anything I can think of.

Yes, and not only among ethnic Ukrainians. This video was in my Facebook feed earlier today:

[Warning: lots of Russian profanity ]


Here, a crowd gathers around a vehicle that was openly displaying a St. George ribbon. The young man is lambasted and this is all taking place in Russian in Odessa.

[jone]

While the good ole'  US of A exports all types of business and commercial activity into other countries, we have a very generous attitude towards countries coming into our lands.  Toyota; Samsung; Volkswagon; there are countless imports.   But the US maintains control over many sectors of the financials markets, both through the Dollar and through bond trading.  Still, this financial sector influence doesn't stop the Euro or European or Asian bond markets. 

Time to take off your rose colored glasses, GQ.  The greatest beneficiary of the most recent political struggles is China.  Anyone disputing that needs to take a lesson in basic international politics.  So, GQ, as you go on crying to everyone how abusive the US is, it is a two way street.  That is one of the great things about Los Angeles.  Our property values increase on an ever increasing basis due to the great influx of Chinese real estate investors.

All-in-all, GQ, your mind plays in a mud puddle and calls it an ocean.  The real world operates in exchange of trade and it is in the best interest of the US or any civilized nation to pursue that trade through civilized notions.  It is in the interest of the United States to maintain a balance of trade.  Your isolationist tendencies and that of your little band of follower(s) would have the US not only pull back on strategic development of trade partners, but allow the US to widen the trade deficit.  Or perhaps you would like to reduce the standard of (your) living to accommodate your ideas that the US should not develop foreign markets?

We had a generation that would consider the inaction of the world, right now, foolishness and history repeating itself.  Our fathers and grandfathers are rolling in their graves at the thought of allowing a new cold war to evolve without even a gesture of defiance.

While I don't believe in sending troops or military supplies to Ukraine's situation in Eastern Europe, I'm 'all in' in using every economic tool available to make Russia's life unbearable until Putin is relegated to the size of his economy, not the size of his ego.

Yes, the US has had their history of abusing countries.  I know of no powerful country that hasn't.  But if we are to freeze the economy of the world by proceeding into another cold war, then we better do it with our eyes wide open, and not because we have some forum pansy claiming that the US is interfering in other nation's affairs.

The US is the world's strongest economy.  With that moniker comes the ability to use economic might to maintain standards of civilization.  It is still our responsibility to demonstrate to the rest of the world that we aren't going to let everything be flushed down the toilet because we don't have the cajones to make a tough call on economic warfare.

The true strategic importance of US involvement in Ukraine is not the individual fight between Russia and her former vassal state.  The importance of Eastern Europe is that the US and Europe can ill afford to be caught asleep at the wheel.    We have a demonstrated foreign policy that does nothing but appeasement.  If that is to continue, we can expect more of the same challenges, not only in Ukraine but in the Middle East, South America and our own back yard.