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Author Topic: The true GCG  (Read 91953 times)

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Offline Journeyman

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The true GCG
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2005, 07:03:50 PM »
Gentlemen,

This topic caught my interest since I was targeted in 2001 by a GCG.  But now Maxx, RacerX and others have really made this a super-valuable thread.  Maxx, yes, if I had any mana, you could have mine.  

I now genuflect, reflect, and react to what I have read.

From time to time (at least weekly, recently), a "super-thread" (like this one) -- an unusually valuable articulation of some important ideas and wisdom -- shows up on this site.  I rarely see it elsewhere.  These kind of threads really deserve more promotion as something of very high value to those who are new to the game and possibly open to these good ideas.

What I would like to suggest to Dan and others is that the board could provide some method of identifying and promoting these threads as being especially valuable, and simply, here and available to read.  Maybe a new section labeled "Golden Threads," listing and highlighting those threads like this one -- a cousin to the Tablets of Stone, but generated through this conversational forum.  Members could nominate and vote on its inclusion, or perhaps Dan could simply use his discretion.  Dan's handling it alone could avoid the potential problem of making it another popularity contest issue.  

I'd just hate to see something like Maxx's very well thought-out and superbly articulated outline of GCG strategy get lost or forgotten.  Lots of really good stuff in so many places throughout this site, but not always readily identifiable.  Searching a site with key words is useful, but sometimes very time-consuming and unproductive.

I walked away from RWG a while ago because of the increasing lack of quality ideas stuff there.  IMO, the really good material here deserves a little more promotion or accessibility.  Too many good minds and thoughts here that should be as accessable as possible.  You have my suggestion.  Is there a better way to accomplish the same thing?

Journeyman

Offline Bruno

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« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2005, 09:48:39 PM »
Quote from: Maxx
So Bruno, perhaps you are correct.

Perhaps :shock:... i am correct since i have explain my own case... and yourself are correct with your own case... A GCG is not a other GCG... and happily, the pool victim of so woman is not big enough for make generalisation...

In any case, a GCG is very difficult to detect... because of her strategie, she don't fight with the husband, she have a normal sexual life with him,... all seem normal... but since real love don't exist, she is enough unfaithful... but the husband is always the last to know it... some of my neightbour have know the extra marital relation from my ex-wife but they have never inform me... and i am not sure that if they have say it, i have believe it...

Yes, it is a great topic but... it explain a lot on the after... and nothing over the before... what can be the red flags who can help newbies before be married with so woman... this is the big problem !!!

 

Offline andrewfi

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« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2005, 05:41:12 AM »
Why not just accept the reality. ALL the women who are actively seeking a US husband are green card girls. No ifs, ands or buts.

The job of the guys is to realise that fact and deal with it. The best way being to accept that reality and to find a woman who, having accepted him as her mule, is willing to give a relationship a go. Which also means him being worthy of being a part of a relationship and there are plenty who are not.

This is a really strange thing for me. I can not for the life of me understand how guys can honestly believe that the primary motivation of a woman actively seeking an American husband is not seeking an American husband! Without exception, they seek a better life, however they imagine or define it and marriage is the chosen route. Some women/men are bright enough to achieve the objective without having to get married, the rest - they use their attributes to gain what they want for themselves. The others, a minority, to look at visa applications use what they have - their bodies, to acheive the goal through the use of another person's attributes.

Offline Bruno

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« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2005, 06:18:51 AM »
Quote from: andrewfin
I know a UK man who have find a wonderful woman... it is certainly not her body who have make her win his heart ( she is 3 time more big that him ) but the character of these woman... bodies weapon is only working on some fool where the lust factor is the main factor... i agree that SOME women are scammer, GCG, unfaithful, ... but the big majority are honest women who have marry a good man... the main goal is family and they have choose to marry a foreign man because they are tired of men who drink to much, they wish a man who is able to live so long that them ( the middle dead age of men in russia is 54 yo ), they don't wish a man who go away when she is pregnant and cannot assume his father responsability ( american have the reputation to be good father )... The myth of the strong russian family is only a dream... it is normal for russian man for drink a lot, to have several girlfriend, specialy when the wife become mother or older ( up 30 year old )... and i don't speak over extreme violance of men against women in FSU... they don't seek a better live... they seek a normal life... 

Offline andrewfi

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« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2005, 06:31:15 AM »
Bruno ~ Nothing I wrote makes these women necessarily bad, but please, let us understand the motivations. There is no shortage of men to marry and the ONLY way a woman leaves the FSU to marry an American is becasue she thinks she is getting a better deal than she would back home. So, tell, me, just how does that make these women NOT green card girls?

As far as I can tell, almost all the people who have successful relationships, in whatever terms they choose to define them, do so from the understanding of what was going on. The ones where the relationship flounders seem almost universally to occur where the man, at least, did not understand the dynamic.

Offline Admin

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« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2005, 06:53:33 AM »
Quote from: Journeyman
Gentlemen,

From time to time (at least weekly, recently), a "super-thread" (like this one) -- an unusually valuable articulation of some important ideas and wisdom -- shows up on this site.  I rarely see it elsewhere.  These kind of threads really deserve more promotion as something of very high value to those who are new to the game and possibly open to these good ideas.

What I would like to suggest to Dan and others is that the board could provide some method of identifying and promoting these threads as being especially valuable, and simply, here and available to read.  Maybe a new section labeled "Golden Threads," listing and highlighting those threads like this one -- a cousin to the Tablets of Stone, but generated through this conversational forum.  Members could nominate and vote on its inclusion, or perhaps Dan could simply use his discretion.  Dan's handling it alone could avoid the potential problem of making it another popularity contest issue.  

I'd just hate to see something like Maxx's very well thought-out and superbly articulated outline of GCG strategy get lost or forgotten.  Lots of really good stuff in so many places throughout this site, but not always readily identifiable.  Searching a site with key words is useful, but sometimes very time-consuming and unproductive.

I walked away from RWG a while ago because of the increasing lack of quality ideas stuff there.  IMO, the really good material here deserves a little more promotion or accessibility.  Too many good minds and thoughts here that should be as accessable as possible.  You have my suggestion.  Is there a better way to accomplish the same thing?

Journeyman


I have the option of converting a topic to "Important" which works like what some boards call a "sticky."

The biggest problem is that I often do not read every message in a topic, unless there is a good reason to do so - and that usually means it is a topic creating some kind of disruption - usually not good candidates for a "Best Of" consideration.

How about we follow this sort of process:

1) Any RWD members may nominate a topic for consideration to categorize that topic as "Important".
2) The form of the nomination would come as a PM directed to me - and feel free to announce it in a message to the open board as well.
3) It gets a little tricky, BUT, I will then establish a poll asking the RWD membership if they feel that particular topic should be deemed "Important." The poll will run for 7 days, and the result at the end of that 7 days will determine if I change the categorization.

The classification of a topic as "Important" is identified by the icon showing an exclamation point. Besides "Normal" which shows nothing special in the icon, there is also the "Announcement" option - which uses a small letter 'i' (presumably, for *i*nformation) to distinguish those topics. In the very rare case where one forum has Normal, Announcements, and Important topics - the order shown is:

Announcement
Important
Normal

With Announcements and Important topics always at the top of the page.

If we adopt this scheme, then in general terms, the moderator(s) will use Announcements for general communication to the board - the 'Best Of' topics would show up as Important topics at the top of each forum page - and then comes all the 'Normal' topics that are aspiring to become part of the 'Best Of' category.

Exceptions to these 'rules' would be in the Admistrative sections of the board which are primarily for my use to communicate topics of interest to the board, hence, I have made liberal use of all 3 classifications of topics depending on what I was trying to communicate.

Comments?

Offline anono

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« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2005, 08:15:08 AM »
dan, you have my vote..sounds like a good idea

andrew, i agree with you almost totally but maybe i am just naive about this. both dasha and "j" say they do not want to come to the usa. dasha maintains this even though our relationship is over and we're now friends. just saw her yesterday. she even changed her profile to say she prefers european men and no, it wasn't a result of any disappointment in me (i hope...'-)  it may be because of my stories of the usa, and the ignorance of the general populace. "j" simply wants to be with me, marriage is not a pressing issue at all, she says as long as she is with me, she does not care. when we were in foros, she said if we get married, let's do it on the rock we used as our tanning/beach platform. she wants me to live with her here in ukraine. siberia would be fine.

maybe she is a great actress and i am yet to find this out, but in the time i have known her, she would have to be a remarkable actress, not only to me but her english teacher (who she did not know before me) and other people on the peripheral. when i asked her why she joined and agency, she replied "to find my native soul".

i think there is a small, perhaps very small, percentage with less of an agenda than others. yes, i realize marriage to me would be better than the average ukrainian in terms of money but even then i am not sure of that as a motivation. she does not live in a flat, her parents are better off than the average ukrainian. so far she has shown no interest in material things. she loves her job and works even though i could easily replace her earnings. i have given her money and she continues to work. i have never seen anyone who loved their job so much. she blew kisses at the building as we went past on the train...

maybe she is a great actress but i am a great skeptic with a jaundiced eye and i have yet to see anything suggest otherwise.

Offline Journeyman

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« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2005, 08:56:34 AM »
Dan,

Your approach sounds good to me too.  Perhaps posting this general proposal in the Administrivia and Announcements section would also help to solicit more feedback.  Perhaps you could identify this thread as a trial run for polling and and possible "important" labeling.

Journeyman

Offline Journeyman

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« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2005, 09:46:04 AM »
Regarding the assignment of the GCG label to women who seek a better life, that can become a very muddled issue.

EVERY American woman I have ever dated or courted in a serious way has had a significant interest in my finances.  Nor can I think of a single American woman who didn't hope that I was making significantly more than her.  On top of that, ALL of them expressed a desire to stop working (themselves) well before 65 -- expecting me, of course, to make up the difference.  Basically, regarding these American gals, if I could not somewhat  improve their situation financially, or in terms of lifestyle, they could not get too excited about me.  My buddies have all experienced essentially the same thing.

In that regard, I can't imagine "normal" Russian gals as being different from local American gals.  What MIGHT be different is some of the unrealistic expectations FSU gals have about money and lifestyle matters in America or the West.  

Labeling all Russian gals as GCGs doesn't strike me as a proper characterization.  I have also met a number of ladies in Russia and Ukraine who really didn't want to leave their homeland.  Yes, they are virtually all intersted in money and a better lifestyle (who wouldn't be?).  All females search for men with resources and social status.  But, that is a seperate characterization issue from the matter of utilizing the "mule" strategy to improve one's life.  

One of the first things I do now when I meet a new lady in the FSU is to attempt to dispell her preconceived notions about the West or America, and see how she reacts.  If I explain to her in detail the lifestyle and normal stresses involved in the median family household, I usually see an attrition rate of about 70%.  It seems that nobody has told them the truth before, or if they did, the lady just didn't believe it.  A man who misrepresents himself, his lifestyle, or his home environment WILL end up being a "mule" (even if he simply allows an FSU gal to continue to embrace her erroneous perceptions of the West).  He will suffer in the end.

I do agree with Andrew that there is a "deal" at work in these WM/RW relationships.  But it is just another version of the old-fashioned "marriage contract," which is the basis for essentially every "normal" marriage.  What can happen more easily in WM/RW relationships, is misrepresentation -- both intentional and negligent.  When the WM is misrepresenting, he gets what he deserves.  When the RW misrepresents, she might then be properly labeled a Green Card Girl.  But not simply because she wants a man with more money and a better lifestyle than she can right there in the FSU.

Journeyman

Offline anono

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« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2005, 10:26:46 AM »
excellent post, journeyman

i too have a had time accepting the label of GCG for ALL of the agency women and this is from a man sitting in kiev who thinks only 1% of the women at the agencies are sincere.

« Last Edit: October 08, 2005, 10:35:00 AM by anono »

Offline catzenmouse

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« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2005, 10:34:00 AM »
Dan:

 That sounds like a good plan to me. There are some incredible bits (and loads in some cases) of information for everyone in any and every phase of this FSUW adventure in these discussions.

Andrew:

 If Elena had her way we would be living in Omsk. She really doesn't like it here that much and the only reason that she does not go back is because of me. She's spoken several times about how she just could not find the right man there. She has no trouble at all attracting attention. It just so happens that the one she ended up wanting to be with was from the US. Yes, she did want a father for her son, yes, she does want a better life for herself, Sergei, and for us but she does not really want it to be here. No GCG in this lady.

Ken
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Offline anono

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« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2005, 10:48:17 AM »
hi ken, i see the same thing in not only dasha and yuliya, but i see this in a few of the women my friends know. a good friend is here in kiev now with his lady and she apparenty has no desire to go to the usa. a lot of these women go to an agency thinking it is safer than going to the clubs. they also do not expect the men to always be an american. in fact, since american men are gaining the reputation of being stupid along with a lot of other character flaws they see in the majority of AM that come here, american men are fast becoming the least desirable men to meet out of foreign men. am i the only one who is seeing an increase in the number of profiles that state a desire for european men? some go as far as to exclude AM. AM have to get it out of their heads that they think they are so desirable simply because they are americans. it is one of the reasons we are looked at as undesirable..our own self-inflated visions of ourselves as AM and thinking america is such a great place. it is a desirable place on many levels but the average american is far more ignorant about a lot of things. we think only of ourselves. they also do not like us for voting in the current "president", they think we are stupid. they also recognize that iraq had nothing to do with 9-11 and a "victory" in iraq is not going to do anything to stop terrorism.

i had a meeting with a lady who is a waitress at a high end restuarant. she says the typical ukrainian man with any money brings his girlfriend in at lunch, his wife in for dinner and is out at the clubs at night with a prostitute. "it is life" she says. i think a lot of these women just want a better deal than that in general.

Offline Bruno

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« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2005, 11:12:05 AM »
Quote from: Journeyman
In that regard, I can't imagine "normal" Russian gals as being different from local American gals. What MIGHT be different is some of the unrealistic expectations FSU gals have about money and lifestyle matters in America or the West.

You have right over the unrealistic expectations of FSU woman but ... Western woman are not like FSU woman... A woman wish always more in her life, a better situation... Western woman have almost all needed and when you have all, you hunt what stay : the money... a FSU woman are not always so lucky... young widow, abandon, povrety,... in so situation, little think who seem normal for us are a wonder for them... surface of home ( cozy home ), fidelity ( FSU women have no problem for find a man but have some problem to keep it ), meat each day... of course, i speak in general... the situation is very different in big urban center like Moscow or Kiev, where people can have a more stable life, more money, ...

Now, what is the big difference between a GCG and a other FSU woman married to a American man ? You see it when she have the green card... the GCG use you, she don't love you... so, when she have the green card, it is the end of the adventure, she don't need you anymore... the usual woman stay married with his guy, same after the green card... because she love him, she need more his husband that the half of his fortuin and a green card...

 

Offline catzenmouse

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« Reply #38 on: October 08, 2005, 11:50:22 AM »
anono,
 Americans in general have a lot of arrogance about themselves and the country yet most of them are completely ignorant of what is going on in the rest of the world, let alone where anything is or who lives there. I've got friends in different part of the globe and they all agree on one thing, that the only thing we have a mandate for is stupidity in our political choices/system/government. (jb, this is not a shot at your boy just the opinions of others that I am in contact with. I try to keep my political views out of this arena and focus on what we are all here for.)

 I lived in Canada for 14 years and if I had been smart I would have kept my status there and would be living there now in all probability. I've got a friend in Nova Scotia that has 500 acres on top of the South Mountain and I would love to be in his situation (Elena would beat me to a bloody pulp for even suggesting we move back out into the country!) with no neighbors around for miles, big garden, animals for food in the back 40. Man I get hot to move just thinking about it. He makes damn good beer too so I always make a point to visit for a couple of days when I am in the area.

Ken
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Offline jb

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« Reply #39 on: October 08, 2005, 12:06:25 PM »
Quote
(jb, this is not a shot at your boy just the opinions of others that I am in contact with. I try to keep my political views out of this arena and focus on what we are all here for.)

He's not my boy, he's our boy, he was elected by popular majority, ya know.

I just like to point out that we'd prolly be in a lot worst situation with Gore at the helm since 9-11.  That guy is totally nuts~!  All youse democrats ought to be thankful you don't have your guy in the hot seat right now, at least you get to hop up and down and point fingers without fear of  being wrong about anything.  It's a little harder when you actually have the responsibility for doing something....even if it's wrong.

Offline Journeyman

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« Reply #40 on: October 08, 2005, 12:45:34 PM »
Quote from: Bruno
In that regard, I can't imagine "normal" Russian gals as being different from local American gals. What MIGHT be different is some of the unrealistic expectations FSU gals have about money and lifestyle matters in America or the West.

You have right over the unrealistic expectations of FSU woman but ... Western woman are not like FSU woman... A woman wish always more in her life, a better situation... Western woman have almost all needed and when you have all, you hunt what stay : the money... a FSU woman are not always so lucky... young widow, abandon, povrety,... in so situation, little think who seem normal for us are a wonder for them...

Now, what is the big difference between a GCG and a other FSU woman married to a American man ? You see it when she have the green card... the GCG use you, she don't love you... so, when she have the green card, it is the end of the adventure, she don't need you anymore... the usual woman stay married with his guy, same after the green card... because she love him, she need more his husband that the half of his fortuin and a green card...
[/quote]

As Andrew (and others) has pointed out several times, the RW who is on the Internet or joining agencies might not be representative of the "normal" RW.  What, maybe 1% of the total population of females.  I would say that many of the RW I have met at agencies are not good marriage material.  And I agree with Anono on that count.  Caveat emptor.

The young widow, the abondoned mother, the destitute RW, are probably more common in the FSU than in America -- and more prevalent in agencies, etc. However, I still don't see them as representing the majority of the Russian female population.  The Russian homes I have visited (by virtue of being invited by the women I was dating) have not been frighteningly bad.  I knew they didn't eat meat every day, and had no hot water on some days, but they didn't live in squalor.

Some less-than-bright RW, who had no marketable skills, yet moved to a bigger city to find work, were definitely more desperate, and I avoided them accordingly.  One such gal I met married another guy quickly just to "get out" asap, but then told me later that she wanted to dump him for me after she got to America.  Yikes! Yes, desperation.  But I have not found to be the case all that all that often.

I have also observed is what Anono alluded to, a noticeable increase (though slight) in a stated preference for European men.  But at the same time, a similar increase in young RW (20 to 25) who are soliciting men 35 to 55.  That is not desperation, nor do I think that they are all GCGs.  I do think that they are employing the newer scam of pretenting to be a girlfriend (going 8/10ths of the way toward marriage by meeting and spending regular visits with WM), but never intending to actually move to  the west, or to even have a K-1 interview.  Enough naive Americans to give them money.  So, they are now targeting ones with more money (men ages 35 to 55), and acting the role of the girlfriend/fiancee, temporarily.

Journeyman

Offline catzenmouse

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« Reply #41 on: October 08, 2005, 01:46:54 PM »
jb wrote:

I just like to point out that we'd prolly be in a lot worst situation with Gore at the helm since 9-11.  That guy is totally nuts~!  All youse democrats ought to be thankful you don't have your guy in the hot seat right now, at least you get to hop up and down and point fingers without fear of  being wrong about anything.  It's a little harder when you actually have the responsibility for doing something....even if it's wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
just for the record: I'm more of an indenpendent than anything else. No I would not want Gore running the country lately but I don't care much for Cheney running it either.

Ken
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Offline anono

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« Reply #42 on: October 08, 2005, 04:19:50 PM »
not worth it..deleted  ;-)
« Last Edit: October 09, 2005, 01:17:00 AM by anono »

Offline andrewfi

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« Reply #43 on: October 08, 2005, 10:35:52 PM »
Guys, if a woman claims that she is not seeking to leave her country and you met her through an agency, frankly, I do not believe what she is telling you. She might be telling the truth in as much as she may mean something like 'if I could have all the benefits of living in the US, whilst living in my home town' to that extent, I would believe her, but of course, this is not an option, she is seeking a foreign/american guy and marketing herself through an international marriage agency. Blinkers off please gents!

If you meet an 'ordinary woman' in the course of life, one who is not selling herself through an agency, then, I would tend to believe her - she has demonstrated that she is relatively content with her lot in the FSU and a change will be due to the influence of the relationship in a major degree. Unless a woman is too stupid to be allowed to live, any woman who chooses to market herself on a marriage agency site aimed at Americans knows that the successful outcome is a life in America - a man who has not figured that out should not be given a passport...

Whilst it is true that many women, everywhere, consider the capabilities of her prospective mate to be a provider, what you guys are missing is the scale of the differences involved - both perceived and real. In the US, the median income for women is 75% of that for men. The median income for women in Russia is probably 10% of that of American men and most guys are, I think earning more than median incomes. Put into context, that is something like a woman earning $30k going out with a guy on $300k Or a guy on $30k going out with a woman on $3k. That disparity is huge and not commonly found in American society. So whilst some give lip service to the economic drivers, almost nobody gives it real thought, because, simply put, most of you wuld not recognise the issues if they bit on the face. They are outside of your experience.

Given that most couples will not have had a long enough relationship for 'love' to be a significant driver and given that we know that economics and lifestyle are major drivers, guys, tell me, just how is it that every woman in an American oriented agency is not a green card girl - that is seeking a relationship with an American guy with a view to living in the USA.

Offline Bruno

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« Reply #44 on: October 09, 2005, 12:59:41 AM »
Quote from: andrewfin
Whilst it is true that many women, everywhere, consider the capabilities of her prospective mate to be a provider, what you guys are missing is the scale of the differences involved - both perceived and real. In the US, the median income for women is 75% of that for men. The median income for women in Russia is probably 10% of that of American men and most guys are, I think earning more than median incomes. Put into context, that is something like a woman earning $30k going out with a guy on $300k Or a guy on $30k going out with a woman on $3k. That disparity is huge and not commonly found in American society. So whilst some give lip service to the economic drivers, almost nobody gives it real thought, because, simply put, most of you wuld not recognise the issues if they bit on the face. They are outside of your experience.

Income !!! Maybe the main reason why us, European have not so much problem with scammer or GCG...

My own income is 1275 euro month and the income of my last ex-girlfriend was around 1000$ month... the difference is not huge... of course, for earn these amount, i work only 38 hours/week... she was working around 60 hours/week...

American people always annouce very big amount of cash monthly but these amount is what i call "brutto" income... here, we show more our "netto" income, what we have in hand... our state remove a lot of % from the money pay by the boss for our social welfare... 30% boss charge, 14.5% social security, around 35% state tax, around 9% city tax... this give the "netto"... and on each product buy, it is 21% VAT... if i announce my income like several American, i need to say that i earn 2157 euro month... this come in the 33K$ year...

In America, you have high fixed charge that you pay yourself... hospital insurance, loose work insurance, retirement plan... so, in place of try to impress woman with big number, it is better say what stay after all these fixed expense... and for some, the remaining money will be very low...

Now, it is the main reason several women choose American people... they seem all to have a lot of money... and several American men show these big income for inpress the young sexy cutie... now, who is responsible ? The young woman ? NO, the American man who show a lot of money... these who send photo of then before the big villa from some celebrity, or photo near a beautiful luxe ship choosen in some marina... how much men lie on her disposal... it is easy to spend several K$ during a "one week wonder" ... but generaly, these men cannot keep the same level for a long periode...

Yes, the men is usualy responsible of the false expectation of the woman... and why the men act like this ? For marry a trophy wife, something that he cannot have home !

Realistic expectation is needed on the both side...

Since i have change my hunting method, i have a lower reply rate to my introduction letter but i have not more receive letter from scammer... i send photo in my work clothes, i say that i have a stable low income, ... and when i meet, i use a budget of maximum 500 euro month... so, a woman who wish boot at 600$ is direct at the wrong address... and seriously, 500 euro month is enough for a lot of pleasure in Ukraine or Russia... i hire appartment localy, at a maximum of 200$ month and not via agency... i buy my food at the market and i cook myself... i try to live like a good earning russia... not like a fool American with a lot of $$$...

MEN ARE RESPONSIBLE OF THE CREATION OF THESE GCG AND SCAMMER... rat is always comming where they can find food or where they think they can find food... become some unrealistic expectation of men, it can happen that the ship sink and of course, the first to abandon the ship are the rat... stop feed the GCG and scammer and they go dissappear...

For these who don't believe me, read the new trip report from Anono... he explain very good the bad behavour from some looser in FSU... he is at the first place for see the effect and result of some idiot comportment

 

Offline Journeyman

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« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2005, 07:23:17 AM »
Quote from: andrewfin
Guys, if a woman claims that she is not seeking to leave her country and you met her through an agency, frankly, I do not believe what she is telling you. She might be telling the truth in as much as she may mean something like 'if I could have all the benefits of living in the US, whilst living in my home town' to that extent, I would believe her, but of course, this is not an option, she is seeking a foreign/american guy and marketing herself through an internationalmarriage agency. Blinkers off please gents!

.........

Given that most couples will not have had a long enough relationship for 'love' to be a significant driver and given that we know that economics and lifestyle are major drivers, guys, tell me, just how is it that every woman in an American oriented agency is not a green card girl - that is seeking a relationship with an American guy with a view to living in the USA.


Andrew,

I do agree with you that the economic disparity is the main driver with respect to the motivations of serious gals to join an agency, and that attracting a foreign husband is the route to that goal (hence, the GCG).  HOWEVER, that just does not account for all the gals joining the agencies.  Let me give you a few examples from my own experience.  On each of my trips, I met FSU ladies who should have been prevented from participating in an agency (sort of like what Rvrwind is attempting to do with his new agency).  Many just aren't motivated in they way that you are characterizing them.  I am NOT saying that their motivations are good, or conducive to a serious relationship (usually they are not).  But I think that you are painting with too broad of a brush.

In 2001, I met a gal at an agency who had just gotten divorced from her alcoholic, abusive husband.  She had endured his abuse for over a year, couldn't take any more, and filed for divorce.  She resolved that she would not subject herself to that kind of situation again, and decided to look for a "kind" man.  She turned to an agency, believing that the grass might be greener in that regard.  Trouble is, she never stopped loving her husband.  After meeting me, conversing for months, and planning another meeting to set up an official engagement, she decided that she couldn't resist the entreaties of her abusive ex to return to him.  She ended up re-marrying him and had his child.

In 2003, I met a gal at another agency whose mother had decided that she should get out of the country.  Why?  Because the mother had just undergone a divorce from her nasty husband.  The mother had resolved that all Russian men are pigs, and that her daughter had to take steps now to avoid the same fate.  Her mother signed her up at this agency.  I didn't understand it at the time, but the girl, herself, didn't feel any compulsion to meet a guy from another country.  She also thought her father was a villain, but still met with him once or twice a month.  Meanwhile, she started developing a relationship with me, and after abou 6 months, we started talking about the possibility of marriage.  4 months later, I travel to meet her again, and she suddenly tells me that she just can't do it.  She doesn't want to leave her home, she fears the unknowns of going down that new path, hasn't allowed herself to develop the depth of feelings for me that she would really want for marriage, and doesn't even see herself getting married for a long time yet.  We remained friends, and a year laterr, we met again, and she confirmed her previous statements that she still planned to remain in the FSU, and not even to get married for a few more years, since she was simply enjoying her career and friends right now.  

At the same time I had met her, a I had met another gal at another agency in another city.  She had signed up with that agency over a year before, but had never met with anybody directly, having received a range of correspondence and invitations for meetings that were ranging from uninteresting to downright repulsive.  She had even requested that the agency remove her profile.  The agency never got around to doing so, an I eventually found her.  But, she liked my demeanor, and we ended up meeting.  When we met, we both realized immediately that we were not quite right for each other romantically, but then found a remarkable rapport developing on a friendship level.  We still correspond occasionally over 2 years later.  But, when we met, she confessed that she had joined the agency out of curiosity and boredom.  She was not in a relationship at the time, but about 6 months after our meeting, she told me that she had finally met someone she really liked (a local guy), and that she was now planning a future with him.  She made next to nothing as a photographer's assistant, but that didn't matter.  She had her family, her friends, and her boyfriend.  I never bought her anything other than a burger at the local McDonalds, yet she repeatedly heaped compliments upon me as being such a "decent and "wonderful" man.  Our communication is still open, but she is now still quite ensconsed in her town.  

And one other gal I met at the same time told me that she had actually signed up at her agency (another one in yet another city) because her friend had talked her into it.  She said she kind of did it on a lark, just for giggles.  She didn't expect anything to really come of it.  When we met, she confessed that she shouldn't have kept her profile up at the agency, and afterwards, removed it from the agency, and hasn't been seen since.

A gal I met a year later in another agency in yet another city signed up at the local agency with her friend and roommate.  She was seemingly interested in me, but really, ultimately, only for a little entertainment.  That is, she was sort of entertaining herself (and her friend), seeing what "goodies" they could extract from this "nice guy".  After I had returned to the States, she said that was going to relocate to another city, might not have reliable communications there, but that we could stay in touch if I would buy her a cell phone.  Of course, I didn't take the bait.  She then informed me that she would be withdrawing her profile from the agency, and did so.  She has never reappeared anywhere.

A while later, I met a gal at a major agency in Kiev.  She appeared to be quite unremarkable in her profile, but when I finally met her, I learned differently.  She was working as a marketing director at a computer-related company, had a nice private office, and was doing QUITE well, financially.  She had a company vehicle at her disposal (complete with a private driver), and was preparing to buy a Mercedes.  Of course, I inquired for some explanation as to why she was involved with an agency.  Her reply was something to the effect that "You never know what might pop up."  Meanwhile, she confessed to me that she had 4 concurrent Ukrainian "boyfriends" there in Kiev, and that she really didn't have much interest in marriage or a serious relationship.  We discussed all this over dinner, which she offered to pay for.  I declined her offer, but she insisted on paying half, and did.  Meanwhile, she made it clear to me that she was interested in me as a new friend, "with benefits."  She insisted that I must call her the next day for a "get together" that evening.  I thought about getting a "generous offer" for a day, and then came to my senses.  I was looking for a serious relationship, and I think all she was offering was an STD.  I reported my experience with her to the agency, and they said they didn't know about her situation, but that they would act to remove her profile since she was clearly not there to meet a guy for a serious relationship.  I never spoke with her again.

I met another gal in Kiev at the same agency.  She seemed  interesting.  Pleasant.  Attractive.  I arranged to meet her.  Even though she spoke adequate English on the phone, she insisted that it would be best if we could have an interpreter.  However, she did not want an agency interpreter.  Instead, she wanted her girlfriend to interpret.  I agreed, thinking that it was an acceptable arrangement.  She then told me that I should also pay her girlfriend, however, since that would be only proper.  Of course, that was a bit of a signal of things to come.    When we finally met, her interpreter-friend couldn't speak English much better than her.  But they both ordered some nice deserts for themselves.  The mild scam was on, I realized it, and concluded the meeting.  The girl reminded me that I should pay for the "interpretation" help from her girlfriend.  I gave her $10 and told her goodbye.

That was absolutely the mildest of the scams into which I ran during the last 5 years.  Some were much more horrendous, including my TRUE GCG in 2001 (an agency girl), and another gal (an agency girl) who, more recently, pretended to be a girlfriend in order to extract money from me (but while intending to stay in the FSU).  The former's intent WAS to get to the US -- any way, any how.  The second had NO interest in immigration, as long as she could get money from me while lounging about in Ukraine.  Both agencies removed their profiles after learning of their real intent in using the agencies.  

I could go on and on.

So, yes, I did meet a true GCG in 2001, but lots, lots more FSU women who actually had no business being with an agency.  They had no serious interest in either a serious relationship with a foreign man, or in leaving the FSU.  

Andrew, I respect your experience and opinions on many issues, and find myself agreeing with you much more than disagreeing with you.  However, I have been meeting agency girls -- many, many of them -- for the last 5 years.  In my opinion, based upon pretty good experience, there is a huge range of reasons why FSU ladies somehow sign up with an agency.  True, some want to meet a foreign man an immigrate asap.  But, in my view, there is also a large percentage of agency girls who really don't have that in mind.  Some of them have legitimate reasons for signing up, some are doing it on a lark, some are just curious about the matter, some are just trying to please their family, some are "lite" scammers, some are serious GCGs, etc., etc.

Andrew, on this matter, is your experience really first-hand?  Are you actually meeting and really getting to know agency girls individually, personally, in depth?  I know you see and hear a lot over there in Estonia.  Much more than I do, I am sure, on FSU-stuff  generally.  However, I have spent a lot of time meeting many, many, many FSU ladies at agencies.  From speaking with other guys, their experience is rather similar to mine.  Please consider my reports about this as a possible  reason to tame slightly your categorical statements about agency girls.  Believe me, my disappointment in agency girls is substantial.  However, I would not characterize them as all having the same orientation, motivation, or strategy.

Journeyman
« Last Edit: October 09, 2005, 07:36:00 AM by Journeyman »

Offline andrewfi

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« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2005, 08:03:55 AM »
Journeyman, my personal experience comes from my times in Russia and also from living here, but also from what others write and from travellers tales from the quite large numbers of guys I have met, including those associated with agencies. Really though, to get down to brass tacks, it comes down to this:

A woman might give you all sorts of justifications for being in a marriage agency that is aimed at foreign guys, but in the end, they all join with one goal... To live in another country. The method is marriage. If it were otherwise they would not be registered with a foreign facing marriage agency. Why would a rational person join a marriage agency aimed at foreign guys unless the intention was to live in a foreign country- or to scam foreign guys? It really is that simple.

You recounted several anecdotes, from them: I do not buy the 'did it on a lark' angle. It implies one of two things, the first is that the woman is too stupid to live an independent life, or she is not serious about moving - but is happy to take any benefits that accrue to her, without having to move. The other motivations that do not involve moving are all scams in one way or another, so no, they are not green card girls, but that is because for them, the green card is not their motivation, but then neither is marriage to a foreign guy!

If a woman thinks she can not find a decent guy and feels that she wants to use some form of dating service there are many in Russia and the FSU. love.mail.ru & damochka.ru spring to mind.  There is no need to sell oneself abroad to achieve the objective of dating and marriage.

It seems to me that all the 'alternative' justifications you offered were simply either obfuscations by the women, seeking to justify what they were doing, or women, in one way or another, extracting benefit from guys without ever intending to leave the country. If you like, I will amend my original case to the following: All the women, in marriage agencies aimed at Americans, who marry American guys and DO actually leave the country to be with a guy are green card girls.

Sadly, the ones who you met who had other motivations were hardly what you might describe as being 'the flowers of their generation' were they?

BTW, if you want to get an idea of the volume of business done by the sites aimed at the FSU, take a look at this search: http://love.mail.ru/search.phtml?s_ty=All&s_i=M&s_l=F&s_f=18&s_t=38&s_p=checked&s_c=10968_0_0

This search is for women aged 18 to 38 in Estonia, now these are Russian speakers, not usually of Estonian ethnicity. There are just under 7000 in a population of about 350,000 Russian women (about 2% of the Russian female population!). There are hardly any women from Estonia on the foreign facing marriage agencies. If women need to find a partner, the numbers clearly show they have a good 'marketplace' in their own country, language and culture. I do not accept that women marry Americans for anything other than economic or lifestyle considerations! They marry you guys because they want to live in America! 'Love' is a pleasant bonus, and yes I do know women who have married guys in other countries. Some did come to love the guy they were with, some are with other guys, some are making lives alone. Even including an ex-girlfriend now living with a guy in the UK, who does love her guy (or tells me she does...), but who was looking for an English guy, specifically becasue that was where she wanted to live. She was honest enough and attractive enough to be able to make choices, but no matter how good a catch any other guy, from wherever he might come, the only guy she would settle with would have been English. She is very, very far from unique.

 
« Last Edit: October 09, 2005, 08:14:00 AM by andrewfin »

Offline BC

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« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2005, 08:12:20 AM »
Journeyman,

The more I read your experiences the more it reminds me of Forrest sitting on that bench with the box of chocolates.. Never really know what you are going to get..

After searching 5 years or more, what keeps you going east?


Offline Journeyman

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« Reply #48 on: October 09, 2005, 09:59:32 AM »
Quote from: andrewfin

(1)  A woman might give you all sorts of justifications for being in a marriage agency that is aimed at foreign guys, but in the end, they all join with one goal... To live in another country. The method is marriage. If it were otherwise they would not be registered with a foreign facing marriage agency. Why would a rational person join a marriage agency aimed at foreign guys unless the intention was tolive in a foreign country- or to scam foreign guys? It really is that simple.

(2)  You recounted several anecdotes, from them: I do not buy the 'did it on a lark' angle.

(3)  It seems to me that all the 'alternative' justifications you offered were simply either obfuscations by the women, seeking to justify what they were doing, or women, in one way or another, extracting benefit from guys without ever intending to leave the country. If you like, I will amend my original case to the following: All the women, inmarriage agencies aimed at Americans,who marry American guys and DO actually leave the country to be with a guy are green card girls.

(4)  Sadly, the ones who you met who had other motivations were hardly what you might describe as being 'the flowers of their generation' were they?


Andrew,

You are doing a bit of "cherrypicking."  Let me reply.

(1)  For example, the example of a girl being urged by her family to join a marriage agency to meet a foreigner is NOT an isolated incident.  Many guys I know have encountered the same thing.  They key is that, while the choice of joining a marriage agency is a rational one to meet a foreigner and "escape" the FSU, the choice NOT primarily that of the girl, herself, but of her family.  The girl doesn't necessaryily want to do that, but attempts to please her family, but in the end, backs out of either the agency, or perhaps even a relationship she has formed, because she doesn't want to do what her parents want.  Her parents hope to direct her to a happier, better life in another country, but she just doesn't feel that way.  Period.  So, it is a choice to join the agency, but not her choice.  And not a scam.

(2) The "lark" example is only 1 of way over over 100 gals I have met.  I offered it not as a major element of the agency population, but as another exception to your rule.

(3) I would fully accept your amended proposition, except that to note that there are still always exceptions.  But, the point of your amended proposition would function well as a general rule.  In fact, I live by it, and know that any FSU gal who might come to live with me in marriage in America is coming in large part to enjoy a better lifestyle and finances.  I have said that endlessly from the beginning of my posting on this board.

(4)  Like many phenomena, that good ole Pareto perspective applies.  I'd say 80%+ of the gals signing up at the agencies are not good marriage material.  After 2 or 3 visits and meeting 30+ FSU gals, I had a respectible sample size and experience base to refine my searching.  I then proceeded to meet many more.  I now reject almost every gal I meet at agencies, because I can ask the right questions and do my due dilgence very effectively now.  Sometimes I reject them because they are not a good match for me, sometimes because they have unacceptable baggage, sometimes because they are insincere, sometimes for other reasons.  

To put it simply, I am conducting my dating in the FSU like I would in the US.  Go to any large collection of people, say at a stadium event with tens of thousands of people.  Of the "available" ones, how many of those would still be a REALLY good match for me (or you)?  Surprisingly, not that many.  Am I picky?  You bet.  But not holding out for Miss Universe.  I don't deserve her.  But holding out for one that is truly a good match (for happily ever after purposes).  I am not at all unrealistic about the ups and downs of marriage, but I do want to get a very good match to start with.

Again with your point I labeled (#4), I think it is most likely that the "flowers of their generation" in the FSU have likely been snapped up by equally deserving Russian men long before I could ever meet them.  I have met a number of happily married Russian women.  There are plenty of them.  Others are still available, or returning to the dating pool.  But as we have all agreed long ago, you can't really get to know someone until you meet them.  So, you travel to the FSU, and then find out what you need to find out.  Sometimes it might be good, but usually it will be disappointing.  That is normal for dating.  Anywhere.

My last point, I did not post my experiences to "share" them with the world.  I was simply wanting to provide valid examples of exceptions to you categorical statement.  Anyone will get themselves into trouble fast by making such sweeping statements (except for this one ;)).  

And let me also emphasize what I have said here before also ...... attempting to meet a good match in the FSU is an enormously daunting task, and a huge minefield.  But, from what I have seen, if you are careful, persistent, and lucky, you might just land a good one.

For me, dating in the FSU is only one part of dating for me.  I am not obsessed with it, and would actually prefer an American wife (or English, Western European, etc.).  However, the FSU does present some intersting possibilities, and I have the money, time, and now the requisite experience to seperate the wheat from the chaf. I have seen a number of unsuccessful AM/RW marriages, and only a few good ones.  I'd like a good one, please.  And I am in no way desperate.  

Journeyman

P.S.  I have no intention, BTW, of making "me" the subject of my posts.  I am only doing so now when someone else makes me an issue.  But in giving examples, I know I can speak most validly when I cite experiences I have had personally.  So, to all, let's not focus on me or you personally, let's focus on the issues.

Offline Journeyman

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« Reply #49 on: October 09, 2005, 10:08:34 AM »
Quote from: BC
Journeyman,

The more I read your experiences the more it reminds me of Forrest sitting on that bench with the box of chocolates.. Never really know what you are going to get..

After searching 5 years or more, what keeps you going east?



BC,

While I don't have the same "youthful enthusiasm" that I had when I started out 5 years ago visiting the FSU, I do feel that my chances of meeting (and maybe marrying a good one) are actually much better now than they were before.  

I have the time and money to do this, in addition to dating locally.  I enjoy a little bit of the challenge also.  

Finally, let me say something positive (for a change) about the women in the FSU (ones I have met).  I HAVE met some really nice, interesting, and decent gals over there.  Even in agencies.  Maybe a dozen or so.  Except for possibly one or two, however, they were not good matches for me.  Again, that is just normal for dating.  Par for the course.

While some guys figure they will "win" this race being the hare, I am now content to be the tortoise.

Journeyman

 

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