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Author Topic: 35th AMERICA'S CUP to NZ  (Read 3109 times)

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Offline JayH

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Re: 35th AMERICA'S CUP to NZ
« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2017, 10:57:17 PM »
Probably true . . . but still sound like a load of crap to me.
Makes no sense at all.  Not what you wrote; but the actual outcome.
I know it seems perplexing but the lift that is created by the wings (sails) is multiplied. It is the same basic rule that allows an airplane to fly (upward and forward).
As Av says--it is the same principle.
To give you another example -- modern race car aerodynamics-- allows incredibly higher speeds and stability thru a corner .
It works the opposite way to an aircraft wing -- ie creating downforce not lift.
The aim is to keep it glued to the track-- and not fly !
By way of comparison -- the same racecar relying on only the grip from the tyres  alone  in cornering is amazingly slower --hard to put a number but at high speeds it could be a 100kmh difference or more !
Of note --the current generation of Americas Cup boats have a "solid" wing as main powerhouse .That wing is in fact  physically  very similar to an actual aircraft wing .

An example of a Le Mans type race car--  where the increase in pressure is easier to measure ( although with the 2017 tech available - it is probable being measured on AC boats)
You can see how this downward pressure would press the car to the track- in effect--the faster you go the faster it allows you to go.

High downforce configuration:
Downforce:
3094 lbs. @ 150 mph
4455 lbs. @ 180 mph
5500 lbs. @ 200 mph

On a road car type( on the track) -- the addition of basic aerodynamic aids can add to it's track performance -- even at less than 10% of the downforce of  figures quoted above.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 11:13:56 PM by JayH »
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 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Online jone

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Re: 35th AMERICA'S CUP to NZ
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2017, 12:00:03 AM »
I know it seems perplexing but the lift that is created by the wings (sails) is multiplied. It is the same basic rule that allows an airplane to fly (upward and forward).

Absolutely.  What lifts an airliner into the air:  Air rushing over the wing ... lift, weight, thrust and drag. 

How fast does the boat go, running with the wind?  How fast does it go, pointing to the weather?  If you can answer these two questions, you will understand about the lift created by the sail.
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Offline BdHvA

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Re: 35th AMERICA'S CUP to NZ
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2017, 09:39:18 AM »
Absolutely.  What lifts an airliner into the air:  Air rushing over the wing ... lift, weight, thrust and drag. 

How fast does the boat go, running with the wind?  How fast does it go, pointing to the weather?  If you can answer these two questions, you will understand about the lift created by the sail.

It is one of those abstract concepts that makes no sense. But a sail boat will only go faster than the true wind when it is sailing against or at right angle to to the wind.

The foils (sails) are not efficent with the wind behind them unless spinnakers, genakers or bloppers are deployed, and even still they only seem to be as fast as the wind.
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Re: 35th AMERICA'S CUP to NZ
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2017, 12:01:53 PM »
All this about how sail boat goes faster than the wind because it is lifted almost out of water still makes no sense.

Think of this.  The wind itself is lifted completely out of the water.
So using the logic others posted . . . the wind should be able to go faster than itself !!!
Ban shredded cheese. Make America Grate Again

Offline JayH

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Re: 35th AMERICA'S CUP to NZ
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2017, 05:09:43 PM »
It is one of those abstract concepts that makes no sense. But a sail boat will only go faster than the true wind when it is sailing against or at right angle to to the wind.

The foils (sails) are not efficient with the wind behind them unless spinnakers, genakers or bloppers are deployed, and even still they only seem to be as fast as the wind.

Ahhh -- no -- not actually correct.
You are at about the wind blowing an umbrella inside out level of understanding.
The wind-- does not push a sailboat to move ( discounting the windage of a boat without sails).
As  I explained above--it is the modifying of the flow across the sail  that creates movement.
What illustrates this most clearly-- is the current generation of AC boats  that tack downwind to get to the directly downwind leg. ( ie zig zag their way on a  downwind   course)  In doing that that achieved speeds approx 4 times the actual wind speed.
Basically -- as the speed builds --it allows them to sail a lower angle in the general direction of the downwind mark  . The lower the angle- the less distance sailed .
This was the very point that made the NZ boat so dominant in the recent series -- for traditional sailors-- sailing a lower angle downwind is the equivalent of sailing higher upwind in any type of boat -- even 1 degree higher is a potential winning advantage.

The current rules removed spinnakers -- as they are redundant and in  fact decrease efficiency of these high speed rigs. Again -- of interest in this last AC was the one design headsails being used-- their were alternative choices -- and in the end-- the smallest was the one chosen--even in light air.The simple reason--less drag .

The key to understanding all this-- the actual wind the boat is seeing as it moves faster and faster  -- is being moved to a different angle -- and the movement creates an increase in strength being felt on the boat.

For anyone interested :
SAILING THEORY AND PRACTICE   -- C.A. Marchaj
A standard text book type reference book used by a generation of those looking at advanced aerodynamic and hydrodynamic principles .
A Polish guy ( Finn sailor!!) whose works date back a long time .


HIGH PERFORMANCE SAILING    -- Frank BETHWAITE
A much lighter read--more modern -- and compulsory reading for aspiring sailors wanting a better understanding . Ignore the authors ego -- and it is quite an entertaining useful read .
On "apparent" wind-- see page 204
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 06:23:24 PM by JayH »
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Offline JayH

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Re: 35th AMERICA'S CUP to NZ
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2017, 05:16:13 PM »
All this about how sail boat goes faster than the wind because it is lifted almost out of water still makes no sense.

Think of this.  The wind itself is lifted completely out of the water.
So using the logic others posted . . . the wind should be able to go faster than itself !!!

It is not just the foiling that allows a sailboat to sail faster than the windspeed.
Many non foiling boats  do it-- faster planing monohulls  and many catamaran types do it as a matter of course. Plenty of the current generation of 100 maxi yachts  do it .
Have you ever seen ice yachts in action? The extremely low friction of the contact with the ice allows speeds at many multiples of the wind speed.( 10  times the wind speed)
That low friction--or drag--is what allows a gain in speed as the boat lifts onto the foils --and opens the way to the next level of performance gain.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 06:19:01 PM by JayH »
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
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 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline JayH

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Re: 35th AMERICA'S CUP to NZ
« Reply #31 on: August 01, 2017, 12:28:13 PM »
The NZ defence of the America's Cup is in the early planning stages.
Much as some in NZ want  turn the clock  back ( as per a few comments in thread here_-- some of the ideas are based on very silly prejudices  .
The real fact is that the 2017 formula worked really well in practice -- made the event more affordable - and relevant !

The last time the Kiwis got clever in trying to force the rules -- they got seriously spanked  by Denis Conner and USA  -- and thoroughly deserved the kicking they got.
Now --some of the same people involved in that losing challenge -- are talking the same sort of bs again.
If they were a 1/4smart -- the Kiwis would realise their best success has come with refining the product -- and not thinking they can move the goalposts further than everyone else.! ;D

America's Cup 2017: Auckland faces shakeup for hometown defence

But it will all depend on which class of boat Team New Zealand chooses to go with, and CEO Grant Dalton's already dropped a few hints - catamarans could be out in favour of the more traditional mono-hulls.

"It's important we don't take away from the yachting aspect of it. It's still a race of yachtsmen, and I think just pumping oil around the boat isn't necessarily yachting," he says.

But other teams have already indicated they want the flying machines to stay.

"It would be a mistake to move away from the style of racing that we now have - I think it's been a real revolution in the America's Cup and the sport of sailing in the last five or six years," says BAR skipper Sir Ben Ainslie.

"I just can't see them wanting to change from where we are right now back into the old keel boats, I think that would be a big step backwards," adds Artemis skipper Nathan Outteridge.
http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/sport/2017/06/america-s-cup-2017-auckland-faces-shakeup-for-hometown-defence.html
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
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 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: 35th AMERICA'S CUP to NZ
« Reply #32 on: August 01, 2017, 06:49:32 PM »
The NZ defence of the America's Cup is in the early planning stages.
Much as some in NZ want  turn the clock  back ( as per a few comments in thread here_-- some of the ideas are based on very silly prejudices  .
The real fact is that the 2017 formula worked really well in practice -- made the event more affordable - and relevant !

The last time the Kiwis got clever in trying to force the rules -- they got seriously spanked  by Denis Conner and USA  -- and thoroughly deserved the kicking they got.
Now --some of the same people involved in that losing challenge -- are talking the same sort of bs again.
If they were a 1/4smart -- the Kiwis would realise their best success has come with refining the product -- and not thinking they can move the goalposts further than everyone else.! ;D

America's Cup 2017: Auckland faces shakeup for hometown defence

But it will all depend on which class of boat Team New Zealand chooses to go with, and CEO Grant Dalton's already dropped a few hints - catamarans could be out in favour of the more traditional mono-hulls.

"It's important we don't take away from the yachting aspect of it. It's still a race of yachtsmen, and I think just pumping oil around the boat isn't necessarily yachting," he says.

But other teams have already indicated they want the flying machines to stay.

"It would be a mistake to move away from the style of racing that we now have - I think it's been a real revolution in the America's Cup and the sport of sailing in the last five or six years," says BAR skipper Sir Ben Ainslie.

"I just can't see them wanting to change from where we are right now back into the old keel boats, I think that would be a big step backwards," adds Artemis skipper Nathan Outteridge.
http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/sport/2017/06/america-s-cup-2017-auckland-faces-shakeup-for-hometown-defence.html

Jay, that report is several weeks old.  It also has glaring geographical and typing errors, so I really wouldn't take it completely at face value in any case.  As for the type of yacht to be raced, it's interesting that Peter Burling, the winning skipper, has been racing in the Moth World Championships over the last couple of weeks - single-handed small yachts which also foil.  He has already expressed his opinion that he wants to see the flying catamarans continue in some form.

I can't see any comments in this thread which suggest a poster prefers a return to the "old" type of boats.  As for the rules, Team New Zealand won.  It's now up to them to decide how the next event is run - not you or me.

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Re: 35th AMERICA'S CUP to NZ
« Reply #33 on: August 01, 2017, 07:56:57 PM »
Anotherkiwi

I believe our resident site copy and paster of inaccurate / old info is referring to Bdhva's earlier post...

May be it's an age thing, but I also prefer match racing to to a drag race - which the foiling M/hulls have become

As for Denis Conner and 'Plastic Fantastic' - the NZ 1987 entry - that was made of composite materials comment: " Why would you want to make a Plastic Boat - unless you wanted to cheat?"  ..He was lucky that the wind finally got up in Fremantle - where the Aussies defended the cup - as he nearly went out in the qualie rounds - where Stars and Stripes was performing like a dog in the light stuff...





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Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: 35th AMERICA'S CUP to NZ
« Reply #35 on: August 02, 2017, 06:34:50 PM »
http://www.newsroom.co.nz/@sailing/2017/08/01/40818/below-decks-with-the-cups-new-keeper

Fun stuff

Excellent article by one of the best journalists in the business (many awards over the years for investigative and portfolio reporting, as well as being a published author of actual books).  I must admit I wasn't aware of how the Challenger of Record was set up - pretty amazing!  :thumbsup:

Offline JayH

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Re: 35th AMERICA'S CUP to NZ
« Reply #36 on: August 03, 2017, 12:05:17 AM »
Jay, that report is several weeks old.  It also has glaring geographical and typing errors, so I really wouldn't take it completely at face value in any case.  As for the type of yacht to be raced, it's interesting that Peter Burling, the winning skipper, has been racing in the Moth World Championships over the last couple of weeks - single-handed small yachts which also foil.  He has already expressed his opinion that he wants to see the flying catamarans continue in some form.

I can't see any comments in this thread which suggest a poster prefers a return to the "old" type of boats.  As for the rules, Team New Zealand won.  It's now up to them to decide how the next event is run - not you or me.

Written by a kiwi  ! So if the geogography is wrong-what can I say !

These words AK -- Take on a wider inference when taken in conjuction with discussions taking or having taken place.(read precisely what I said )
"It's important we don't take away from the yachting aspect of it. It's still a race of yachtsmen, and I think just pumping oil around the boat isn't necessarily yachting," he says.

Anotherkiwi

I believe our resident site copy and paster of inaccurate / old info is referring to Bdhva's earlier post...

May be it's an age thing, but I also prefer match racing to to a drag race - which the foiling M/hulls have become

As for Denis Conner and 'Plastic Fantastic' - the NZ 1987 entry - that was made of composite materials comment: " Why would you want to make a Plastic Boat - unless you wanted to cheat?"  ..He was lucky that the wind finally got up in Fremantle - where the Aussies defended the cup - as he nearly went out in the qualie rounds - where Stars and Stripes was performing like a dog in the light stuff...


As usual -- Moby cant read -- any give article linked is not necessarily my personal view --it may simply be a wider discussion than comments made that gives background etc.
Moby--if you cant figure that out --just shut up.
What make me laugh--is you google with no understanding whatsoever -- and waste all our time trolling.

My reference to Denis Conner & NZ challenge was when the NZ Challenge attempted to be too smart -- and nominated from the original charter -- and a very short advance time.NZ already had a 90' boat ( & a crew of 40 !!)--went to court to force a defence in their nominated time frame and in the rules that they nominated  from the original charter which was very widely framed wording -- Conner and USA then used a multihull to destroy the Kiwi Challlenge on the water /
That lead to a period of stability in the rules-- but-- cost were out of control and escalating -- and all in boats with little relevance to the 2000's.

For the record --I don't need google on any of this--I happen to be quite familiar with it all and the history .


As for the style of racing -- part of what I said about the old stooges disapproving stands --guys like Larry Ellison who have more open( more marketing oriented. and less traditional type thinking had a vision -- and it has worked very well.
What is different is that the sheer speeds make the distances further --but that very aspect means that any mistake will be costly.That type of longer distance apart is hard for monohull brains to comprehend! The current designs are about 10 times faster than than the type of monohull plugs many sailors are used to !
The challenger rounds ( if you happened to watch them !! )  were actually far more interesting than the final. The NZder'swere able to refine and improve substantially in that time-- and becameclearly dominant.

Ironically--in a time when the NYC controlled proceedings-- the defender sailed a tough elimination series  while the challenger stood alone -- and repeatedly the US were better prepared -- and refined .
Funny how history reversed itself this time.

For those that still have no concept on multihulls -- look at what Ken Read  has  to say about the topic .His credentials are impeccable as a monohull champion in numerous traditional classes -- as well as great success offshore in some line honours rockets. His voice was heard in commentary in Bermuda -- and he would be the most modest person ever heard on TV !
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 12:16:30 AM by JayH »
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Re: 35th AMERICA'S CUP to NZ
« Reply #37 on: August 03, 2017, 01:29:14 AM »


The foils (sails) are not efficent with the wind behind them unless spinnakers, genakers or bloppers are deployed, and even still they only seem to be as fast as the wind.

Whaaaat ?

Even 4 years ago these foiling cats were going 2.79 times faster than the wind - downwind

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/sailing/10335496/Americas-Cup-how-the-yachts-go-faster-than-the-wind.html

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Re: 35th AMERICA'S CUP to NZ
« Reply #38 on: August 03, 2017, 09:40:51 AM »
Whaaaat ?

Even 4 years ago these foiling cats were going 2.79 times faster than the wind - downwind

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/sailing/10335496/Americas-Cup-how-the-yachts-go-faster-than-the-wind.html

I did not bring foiling into the equation, so you are correct. The vast majority of monohulls can not match or exceed the true wind speed down wind, even when they are planning. They can exceed the wind speed when one the helmsman heats it up. (Increase the apparent angle of the wind to the wings/sails)
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Re: 35th AMERICA'S CUP to NZ
« Reply #39 on: October 07, 2017, 02:09:35 AM »

Well--it happened. The dead head Kiwis want to turn the clock back to another era.
Absolutely clueless moronic  small minded series of  decisions.
I can only hope Larry Ellison wins it for the USA again and restores it to a real accessible event!


America’s Cup Will Return to Monohulls in 2021

The Cup in 2021 will return to monohulls, the boats with deep keels that were part of every America’s Cup from 1851 to 2007

http://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/29/sports/sailing/americas-cup-2021-monohulls.html

The quoted part is only partly accurate - as one defence  was a USA Multihull defending a giant NZ monohulli
« Last Edit: October 07, 2017, 02:11:24 AM by JayH »
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 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

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Re: 35th AMERICA'S CUP to NZ
« Reply #40 on: October 07, 2017, 03:01:13 AM »
I saw some of the AC this year, as there was a serious UK attempt to win it and the races took place near to home.  The 'boats' were just tall thin sails on a platform.  Returning to a specification that requires you to compete with something that resembles an actual boat isn't a bad thing.

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Re: 35th AMERICA'S CUP to NZ
« Reply #41 on: October 07, 2017, 07:40:14 AM »
Well--it happened. The dead head Kiwis want to turn the clock back to another era.
Absolutely clueless moronic  small minded series of  decisions.
I can only hope Larry Ellison wins it for the USA again and restores it to a real accessible event!

Sailing multi hulls in Kiwi's waters would be fatal to sailor's nasty short chop.

They 'owners' of the cup have a clear guiding principle and that is to return the Auld Mug and winning (or defending) it to the principles that founded it. So a vessel built and designed by the country that enters it. It should be sailed by nationals of the flag that it sails 'under'.

How many 'Americans' were on team 'Oracle'?

While I respect the advances the Larry 'ahssole' Ellison brought to the America's cup. I am largely dismissive of the results that he obtained with all his dollars. Presently in relevancy he is just infront of the Optimist worlds; numerous events outscore the the America's Cup, even including the Olympics, another multi year circus. The VOR, TP52, and Vendee are more interesting presently.

I suspect the Kiwi's can turn it around.
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Re: 35th AMERICA'S CUP to NZ
« Reply #42 on: October 07, 2017, 03:49:02 PM »
Chess on the water - not drag racing - is what this poster seeks - might not be 'good tv' for the uniformed..but FAR more interesting
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Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: 35th AMERICA'S CUP to NZ
« Reply #43 on: October 07, 2017, 04:10:45 PM »
Well--it happened. The dead head Kiwis want to turn the clock back to another era.
Absolutely clueless moronic  small minded series of  decisions.
I can only hope Larry Ellison wins it for the USA again and restores it to a real accessible event!


America’s Cup Will Return to Monohulls in 2021

The Cup in 2021 will return to monohulls, the boats with deep keels that were part of every America’s Cup from 1851 to 2007

http://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/29/sports/sailing/americas-cup-2021-monohulls.html

The quoted part is only partly accurate - as one defence  was a USA Multihull defending a giant NZ monohulli

I'm really disappointed in you, JayH - taking an American press report at face value.  That's not like you.  :o

The boats proposed will be foiling monohulls - NOT the way they're described in the report.  The intention is also that they will be cheaper to design and build than the catamarans, which were incredibly expensive and resulted in only a handful of teams being able to race - including the "Japanese" team which was effectively Oracle 2.

You have also obviously missed the news that the New York Yacht Club have officially entered a challenge.  Obviously SOME Americans, even if not Larry Ellison, are happy with the proposals.  Sir Russell Coutts has said that he will no longer be involved in the America's Cup, having left Oracle to return permanently to New Zealand, where he is now the Commodore of the Manly Sailing Club, close to his home.  He has a new competitive interest, anyway, because his 11 year old son Mattias, representing New Zealand, recently won the under-13 O'Pen Bic World Championship.

Sailing multi hulls in Kiwi's waters would be fatal to sailor's nasty short chop.

Not necessarily fatal, but the potential Auckland race courses certainly don't have the same protection as Bermuda's Great Sound.

They 'owners' of the cup have a clear guiding principle and that is to return the Auld Mug and winning (or defending) it to the principles that founded it. So a vessel built and designed by the country that enters it. It should be sailed by nationals of the flag that it sails 'under'.

How many 'Americans' were on team 'Oracle'?

It's still going to be fairly open.  Even this is not particularly stringent:

...the challenges of new residency rules, which require 20 percent of the crew to hold passports of the nation they represent but mandate that the other crew members must reside in that country for 380 days between Sept. 1, 2018 and Sept. 1, 2020.

I suspect the Kiwi's can turn it around.

I hope so.  Don't get me wrong - I enjoyed the catamarans, but 20 minutes is way too short for a race at this level.  I suspect that it has a lot to do with the massive deterioration in people's attention spans as the digital age progresses.

Offline BdHvA

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Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: 35th AMERICA'S CUP to NZ
« Reply #45 on: November 20, 2017, 04:59:29 PM »
Although the protocol for the next America's Cup was released at the end of September, specifying AC75 monohulls, the design then was no more than a concept.  It has now been released - boring they are not!

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/CU1711/S00349/the-fully-foiling-americas-cup-ac75-yacht-revealed.htm





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Re: 35th AMERICA'S CUP to NZ
« Reply #46 on: November 20, 2017, 07:29:52 PM »
Wow, Thanks AK...

Interesting that Luna Rossa features  - I guess due to the fact they were the first challenger - there's certainly some history there..

I'm not sure that Luna Rossa doesn't tack in Team Emirates NZ water - a penalty should ensue - in the vid @ 1.45  ;) 

The windward foil extending so far out will mean the hulls of the racing yachts are unlikely to get as close in the vids - as surely the windward boat making contact - might damage the  leeward boats foil ( innocent party in most scenarios)

At least in the Cats the foil curved inwards..

It's a shame we have to wait another 4 years for the finals
Sod off Photobucket - this punter moved to flickr - rather than being blackmailed

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Re: 35th AMERICA'S CUP to NZ
« Reply #47 on: November 21, 2017, 04:27:25 PM »
The windward foil extending so far out will mean the hulls of the racing yachts are unlikely to get as close in the vids - as surely the windward boat making contact - might damage the  leeward boats foil ( innocent party in most scenarios)

I imagine that there would be pretty horrendous damage if the foils contacted at full speed - especially if the boats were going in opposite directions!

 

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