VISITING ONE versus VISITING MANY

[jb]

:D:D

[Muzh]

So, how can you disagree with what I wrote?

The only point of difference is that you appear to think that the man has no part in the process. That might be true for you, it is not true for most men, even if it is only a negative, as in a choice to move on. Also, do not forget that whatever you tell us, you know, as do almost all, self aware, seekers of wives from poorer countries, that there are significant distorting factors influencing the choice made by a woman. We can flatter ourselves as much as we like, it is fun and good for the ego, but seeing into the soul...? Perleeeze.

Andrew:

My answer to your first 5 questions is : Yes.

Re-read what I wrote.  I'm not disagreeing with these questions.

And yes, the man has no part in "the process."  It has been and always will be up to the woman to pick her mate, not all the way around.  Simple evolution.  If you think otherwise, you are deluding yourself.

And as I mentioned before, regarding "looking at her soul," you may have eyes but you can't see.  Let me know if I have to explain this to you.

[Bruno]

Bruno,

Not everyone has the luxury of a quick cheap flight to the fsu countries as you do.  That alone is a huge difference.

KenC

Ken, my fligt can seem cheap for several of people here, but these 500 euro are enought money for me... almost the half of one month income after tax... it is why i choice a long term visit... the stay himself in FSU is enough cheap comparate to the same holliday in Belgium...

I cannot permit financialy 4 trip of one week by year... it will be only for the airfaire around two month income... i only adapt my method to my income...

 

[Leslie]

Hmmm,

 

Muzh wants his wife to mount his dick on the wall like a trophy…

 

Elen wants to "taste the waters" of many men…

 

The outpatients are out in force tonight

 

 

[Leslie]

So you reckon you are preaching some universal truth when you say -

 

"And yes, the man has no part in "the process."  It has been and always will be up to the woman to pick her mate, not all the way around.  Simple evolution.  If you think otherwise, you are deluding yourself."

 

All you are demonstrating is that you don't have a lot of experience or self confidence with women.  

 

You know women ALWAYS make the initial decision on starting a relationship.  A guy can only choose from the women who have already chosen him.  A lot of guys never make that decision.  They are so happy to have a girlfriend that they accept the woman's decision. 

 

You are one of those guys.

 

I am not a prize that a woman can claim. 

 

I made my choice.  I own my balls….

[KenC]

Elen,

Of course what is good for the goose is good for the gander.  Until the couple decides that they are exclusive to each other, both are "free agents".

KenC

[Bruno]

I agree fully with Ken... and now, by experience, i can correct a little his sentence : "until the final yes during the marriage both are free agent"

[Photo Guy]

Ken,
I agree with the idea that before two people make a commitment, there's
freedom to date other people. I understand. On the other hand, when a guy goes to the FSU and lines up a dozen women to date, I think there are negative effects of such a process. Donna is proof that there can be a problem with that dating strategy. Is she wrong to feel that way? It doesn't matter - it only matters that many women, I believe, are humiliated by a multiple dating process.

This topic has very little to do with me. In my case, I wrote to a few women and quickly narrowed it down to one very interesting person. I found her to be fascinating. Nobody can advise me that she should not interest me. So, given that truth, I set out to have an adventure in Kyiv. I wanted to meet her and see if she was also interesting, in a face to face meeting. If after meeting her, she or I lost interest, then I'd just enjoy my vacation anyway and maybe I'd improvise by visiting a dating agency.
Like someone said, a 'relaxing' visit to Kyiv was my goal and not a pressure-filled line-up of potential wives. Is there some problem with that? Is it scandalous? I wanted to focus on one woman and I'm happy I did. If things don't work out, I'll write women again until I found that
'right' impression. And then I'll go visit her because she will be a woman who made the right impression with me before the visit. But, this topic isn't about me, it's about the merits of either VO or VM.

How are RW affected by a guy who uses the VM strategy, contrasted with
a guy who uses the VO strategy? That's the question that interests me.
Donna and Elena of Elena's Models are two women that come to mind that do
have a problem with the VM strategy. Are there others? Are these women part of a small minority or a large majority?

Again, for my own strategy, I just went with the flow, what felt 'right'
for me. I did not have a strong opinion either way, although I was surprised by the overreaction by the guys who VM. So is the failure rate much worse for VO?  Duggi

[Photo Guy]

Mushz, if you agree with the concept that love will blindly strike you then you have a point. Most of us though know that finding a mate, whilst a matter of luck, to some degree, is actually a numbers game.

Think about it. If you meet nobody, you have no opportunity to find a mate, yes?

If you pick the first person you meet, you have a poor chance of finding a compatible mate, yes?

Let me run this idea by you: As you live your life, you meet MANY women. There are exceptions to that rule, but I know I have met many different kinds of women and have had dozens of infatuations. It's not true to imply  that someone is choosing the first person they meet. Before meeting a woman you actually can tell if she's the type of woman you are looking for. There are many men who do not have a clue what they're looking for. In my case, I know very well what type of woman I am seeking. That is why I can easily narrow it down to one or two women in a short amount of time and even through emails. Looking at my own past history, I have learned what qualities the right woman for me will have. Ken seems to think for some bizarre reason that I stumbled upon a particular woman and just randomly chose her because she was a breathing human from the FSU. That's just not how it was or is. I can compare a woman to all other women that I have known. Yes, it's a numbers game AND you learn what kind of woman is toxic and what kind of woman is appropriate for you. In my case, I've taken years of experience to learn what qualities to choose.  Doug

Guys: What specific qualities are you searching for in a woman?

[Elen]

Of course what is good for the goose is good for the gander

Truth tell after reading yours trip reports I got only an imagination many you follow another saying "quo licet Jovi, non licet bovi " - "Что позволено Юпитеру, то не позволено быку":? Because you ( many of you) see money spent on a trip as your exclusive right for a girl. Something like "Of course she may to see others but then I don't want to deal with her"

I may be wrong but I just can't get rid from that feeling. Sorry

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[Bruce]

Doug - nothing wrong with writing, narrowing your choice down to one and flying over to meet her with backup plans.  Many a guy has had success with that approach.  My and many other guys experience is that once you get off the plane the person you were writing either does not exist, does not like you, misrepresented herself, you are instantly repulsed or you / she soon learn that chemistry just does not exist between you. 

Today more than ever there are so many ghosts / fat Yuri's writing letters to American men.  That or because it is so easy to fall in love with a photo and establish your own fantasy that I always urge guys to go sooner rather than later ie. make it real.  I urge guys to go over and establish a relationship with a real person, whether after meeting many or one with whatever the method.  Then worry about growing your relationship ie. do it with a real person you have met and have chemistry with, not a photo and a fantasy.

Look for the character traits in a mate most important to you.  Real honesty, real loyalty, real sincerety, real kindness.  Those are what is most important to me.

[Donna_Pedro]

Donna and Elena of Elena's Models are two women that come to mind that do
have a problem with the VM strategy.

And both are "mosckvichkas".  Strange, isnt it? I really want to see a woman who stands up and says that she likes the idea of VM. Andrew is right - if a person lacks resources, experience and his  communication abilities are limited - he better go VM. My reasons for ignoring a VM men were plain.  If a man does not  like this idea - he can go to h..l, because  at the end of the day, its my life we are talking about,  I am responsible for it, I am going to do everything the way I see fit  and if it costs someone an extra  few  grands - too bad.   Dont get started at all if you can not afford even a trip.   If a man  is an introvert, can not communicate and figure out I am not a scammer - he is not my type too, so end of discussion, I am not wasting my time on him. I was not looking for looovvveee but rather for the plain things  that no family can not function without - personal compatability and financial stability. As my experience shows the issue of  major personal compatability can be sorted by communicating on the phone, provided both speak english fluently and  ready to invest time in getting to know each other.  The issues of financial stability came up in  our extensive  communications several times, mostly in a subtle way, so  I could figure out  Mr.Pedro was doing OK. And, boy, if a person can keep me on the phone for 12 hours, it means he is so d..mn special,  that the size and form of his ears, nose and what else is there, does not mean much. I dont know what could have happened  in person that would kill the "chemistry" we had  on the phone. There are so many guys  who came home empty-handed after a VM trip, so there is always risk and no guarantees. Womem simply need not to afraid to take matters in their own hands. Men think they will choose because they pay. Those who thought this way got their reality check with me very quickly.  

[anono]

i'd like to see the situation reversed. let's say the usa is full of good men yet we are unable to go to russia or ukraine. let's say the women in russia and ukraine have money and can travel to the usa to meet men. are they going to take the first man they meet, even if it is not thethe right man?

would women expect of themselves what they expect of us?

[andrewfi]

Muszh, we can delude ourselves in many ways, but, as yet, there has been no demonstrated ESP ability in humans. The eyes are just eyes and knowledge comes with time and experience, st into context. (choice)

If you choose to believe that you have no part in the process of mate selection then you are less perceptive than you need to be. Perhaps one of those people who needs to find a wife from a strange and economically hindered country...

 

[Leslie]

Donna said "its my life we are talking about,  I am responsible for it, I am going to do everything the way I see fit  and if it costs someone an extra  few  grand - too bad."

 

 Well I agree with this attitude entirely. You have to look after your own interests.  If you don't no one else will.  The women I dated to find my wife had to play by my rules.  I operated a strict "one strike and you are out policy"  I know I broke some hearts but in any competition there have to be losers. There were (and still are!) so many eligible women to chose from why should I settle for "second best"?

 

Donna also said "I don't know what could have happened  in person that would kill the "chemistry" we had  on the phone."

 

Interesting comment.  Kenc made a good point earlier on this -

 

"Most guys that go on WOVO trips try to force a round peg into a square hole so as to save their invested time and energy."

 

This approach is shared by the VO women so maybe it is true.  I reckon it is not a big issue with visit one folks, they are more ready to compromise more than the rest of us are.  Looks and sex are less important too.  "Chemistry" on the telephone??  Weird!

 

Well it is 3 years later and we have the same protagonists (Donna Andrew and me) posting on a dating strategy thread. Guess what?  Nothing has changed….

[Turboguy]

[user=134]Photo Guy[/user] wrote:

Let me run this idea by you: As you live your life, you meet MANY women. There are exceptions to that rule, but I know I have met many different kinds of women and have had dozens of infatuations. It's not true to imply that someone is choosing the first person they meet. Before meeting a woman you actually can tell if she's the type of woman you are looking for. There are many men who do not have a clue what they're looking for. In my case, I know very well what type of woman I am seeking. That is why I can easily narrow it down to one or two women in a short amount of time and even through emails. Looking at my own past history, I have learned what qualities the right woman for me will have. Ken seems to think for some bizarre reason that I stumbled upon a particular woman and just randomly chose her because she was a breathing human from the FSU. That's just not how it was or is. I can compare a woman to all other women that I have known. Yes, it's a numbers game AND you learn what kind of woman is toxic and what kind of woman is appropriate for you. In my case, I've taken years of experience to learn what qualities to choose. Doug

Guys: What specific qualities are you searching for in a woman?

Personally I have never been much of a fan of the WOVO system.   I have made too many trips when the one gal that I thought was the person I wanted to spend my life with was not the same person in real life that I shared my letters, my thoughts and my feelings.  

I have had the nice sweet gals who wrote all those wonderful letters turn out to be nasty, turn out to be crazy, turn out to be scammers and gold diggers.  Of course I have had some turn out to be very nice.   I think one of the most frustrating parts of meeting FSU women for me was the dissapointment watching my dreams, hopes and expectations smashed by reality.

Most of my trips and attempts to meet ladies were more write tons of ladies and visit a few.   The closest I got to something that might be called a power trip were the romance tours of which I took three with EC.    I usually tried to spend 2-3 days with a gal.  If I really thought it was going the be something special I might spend more time.  The record was a week. 

I only ever made one trip to meet one lady and that was intended to be an elimination.   I had met a gal from Donetsk that I thought might be worth trying to build a future with.  She was not very pretty and did not have much of a figure but was one of the nicest persons I met and she had a look that appealed to me although she might not to many guys. 

My elimination trip was some goofy gal over in Nizhney Novogord that I had never seen a photo of and did not even know her age.  She was sending me SMS messges that I couldn't get out of my mind.  I really liked the personality and her sense of humor and thought I would go over, visit her and get her out of my mind so I could concentrate on the gal from Donetsk.   After I said I would visit her and before I went she had a friend send some photos.   When I saw them it was sort of wow, maybe I should take this gal more serious.   In January I made my elimination trip but what really got eliminated was any other gal I ever had an interest in and there were hundreds I was writing at that time.   I have made a dozen wmvm trips and one trip to visit one and that was the one that worked for me.   I think in reality it is all a bit of luck.  You just keep working at it until the right one comes along.   She will.  It may be the very first, it might take dozens.  She will come along.

[OhioGuyRob]

This is a pointless arguement.  No one is going to change anyones minds on this topic.  What worked for one person may not work for another.  Of the women I met on my first trip to the FSU I had not written to ANY OF THEM.   I met my fiancee on that trip.... So Im of the opinion that writing today is a huge waste of time.  Especially when it is so lucrative for the agencies to hire girls to write letters and keep the $$ coming in the door.  IMHO if you are starting out today you are far better off simply getting on a plane, picking a city and visiting the women while you are there.... then write.

[Turboguy]

This is a pointless arguement. No one is going to change anyones minds on this topic.

That is the most astute remark I have heard in a long time.   That applies to a lot of things but everyone seems to want to save the world.

I have to agree with you about writing but there are a lot of places where you can write without paying a fee for each letter.   I think the guys who write a ton a ladies at $ 8.00 a letter or so are throwing away a lot of money.   I see guys spending $ 1000 a month and probably a lot of it on ladies who don't even know he exists.

I think the idea of falling in love with letters is not a very sure thing but you can get to the point where you have some shared monemts to build on and some basic knowlege of each other as well.

[andrewfi]

Whilst it is not likely to be possible to change the minds of those who honestly write here that they believe handing over the choices of mate to a person they do not know is a good thing (WOVO), I do not think it is a waste of time.

I look at this from an independent viewpoint, that of living in the FSU and dating local women, with an insight into what they are doing and why. I would not be writing to many, or any women; no need. My experience gives me the knowledge to make the posts I do. Those who argue for writing to and visiting just one woman tend to have very little knowledge or experience. That some make a satisfactory arrangement is not in doubt. That some people are more accepting, shy, desperate or whatever is also beyond doubt. Those who have much emotional energy invested into doing what they do and have done are unlikely to change, it is not the nature of man to do so.

Hopefully, a couple of guys reading these posts might look and say 'Hey, I know I was going to see just one person, but, on reflection and seeing what these guys write, for and against, it seems madness!' I care not one whit what others here have done, I can see the results, but a guy who sees himself successful will not say 'do not do this!' He will say 'do this!'. I look from the outside and say that to try to pick one woman from over 100,000,000 by email and to cleave only to her is misguided, I say it because I know what the women seeking foreign guys are doing. They are not playing the same game as the guys and for the few who, for some reason or other, are genuine, well, they are insignificant and can be cast aside. (Sorry Donna, I am sure you are a lovely individual, but you are, in the end, one of many... that said you found what you wanted, but I would feel no loss in not having included you in a list of potential wife candidates.

It is to late to save the guys who have chosen to play by the rules of the women who need the man more than the man need the women. Perhaps those who follow can learn.

[Donna_Pedro]

Leslie

The women I dated to find my wife had to play by my rules. 

 See, Leslie, the whole pool of confident  and challenging girls,  who refuse to play by your rules,  is out of your reach. You have a choice only among those who "HAVE TO" put up with yours. Well, may be you do not need a challenge...

[Donna_Pedro]

Andrewfin

Those who argue for writing to and visiting just one woman tend to have very little knowledge or experience.

ehhh?

It is to late to save the guys who have chosen to play by the rules of the women who need the man more than the man need the women.

Thats the whole point Andrew!!!! Exellent.  I keep repeating it over and over and over. Thats whom most men bring here - desperate women.   (I keep saying it on RW web-sites  too- never ever let a man think you need him, or you will always play by his rules. If even you are desperate, make it look like you can care less. And if you start playing by his rules once, you will be playing this way all your life).  Its easy to say, not easy to do though. For me it comes naturally, because the slogan I live by is "UP YOURS!" I dont need a man to be happy, I dont need a man to be rescued, I am confident.  When a man  anderstands that a woman does not need him more then he needs her - the rules get changed, arent they?

[Elen]

Каждый выбирает для себя

Женщину, религию, дорогу,

Дьяволу служить или пророку,

Каждый выбирает для себя."


And everybody gets what he is looking for (Just wonder why do such many of you guys get into a jam with scammers:P)

[Leslie]

Donna,

 

You are a very independent, dominant woman.  I respect the way you have established yourself in the US and built a stable marriage.  You and Jet are very good role models for the WOVO approach.  I don't dispute that WOVO works for certain types of people.  As long as this approach is carried out with care and diligence I am sure that it works.

 

I took a reasoned decision not to date ANY visit one type people.  I did date a small number (because they initially lied about how they played the dating game)  but their true feelings came out -usually by the second date and I stopped then.  I have no regrets about this.  I dated lots of very independent minded career women in Manhattan.  These women always professed that they did not need a man.  Funny that they can be found in droves in the singles bars of Greenwich village on any Friday or Saturday night…..

 

I hope you are not still characterizing all FSU women involved in this process who do not share your outlook as "landfill"  that was so narrow minded. :X

 

 

[anono]

nevermind..this ain't worth it

[OhioGuyRob]

nevermind..this ain't worth it

I hear ya....  I learned an incredible lesson when I went to Odessa having to immediately use a back up plan because the women I had been writing were all "unable" to meet for various reasons.  Its my opinion that they couldnt meet becuase I wasnt atcually writing to the women in the photos!  

If an agency is going to do letter scams its impossible for you to detect that until you show up.  The gal(agency translater) writing can give  you her phone number, hence you wont know.  She can actually give you the real girls address if you want to do the flower/photo deal.  A very confused girl gets flowers from a stranger and smiles for the picture.

Short of you physically being there to say hello face to face there is no consistent way to know if the gal you are corresponding with is who you think you are corresponding with!  Because the letter scam is so lucrative for agencies today, I am not convinced that you can have much success picking an agency off the net, and writing.