The Struggle For Ukraine

[Bee Farmer]

As an American living abroad, I don't see it this way.  I live in a country that provides immigrants the same rights that a citizen has.  The only exception is voting and the possibility of expulsion if I break the law in a significant way. Privilege by your definition, implies immigrants should be afforded fewer rights than a citizen.  That is not the case here, nor is it, AFAIK, the case in the US.

You don't seem to understand the difference between rights and privileges.  If someone is in another country by privilege, then they have privileges which may mirror the rights given to citizens of the host country.

There's an old saying.  Possession is 9/10th's of the law.  (legal title is the other 1/10th.)
Someone who owns a house has the right to live in it.
A renter appears to have the right to live in a house. (9/10th)  But really, they are there by privilege and not by right.  (and they can lose that privilege, as easily evidenced by evictions.)

After this, you try to demand all Russians living here in green card status be expelled or imprisoned...you say this while saying how expats tacitly approve of the government in their host country (Russians here).

No, I am just a strong supporter of strong property rights.  (and I didn't say that expats have to approve of a host government's actions.  They just tacitly agree that they are there by favor of the host government, and the host government can name them a persona non-grata if they wish, and boot them out.)

Those arguing that expats have rights (which are actually privileges) are just trying to erode property rights.

[Bee Farmer]

Bee Farmer-
Having lived abroad in many countries long term,I am all too  familiar with the privilege granted by the host governments honoring a visa they issued ,and that they can certainly choose to revoke that visa at any time.


Fortunately none of them are prone to toddler like tantrums ,or likely to hold foreign workers in thier countries liable for the foreign policy decisions of their national.governments,as they recognize those can change on a dime.

Having the right to do something, doesn't always make it the right thing to do. This seems a concept that is easy for most to grasp.


Get back to me when the usa revokes those here on  visas ok?

Are you aware that Switzerland just suspended all Russian visas except for diplomatic visas, and said they would not allow any Russians to be there?

Are you forgetting that the US put Japanese-Americans in concentration camps in WWII?  What makes you think they wouldn't do something similar again when faced with another  war?  Oh wait, we are faced with another war...caused by Russia invading and attacking Ukraine.

[Bee Farmer]

I mentioned to wife how it is a shame that other countries didn't earlier send the planes and weapons to Ukraine that they are now doing.

She said quite simple explanation:

Countries did not believe Ukraine would last very long, and didn't want all the weapons to end up in the hands of Russians.

The US approved to send early models of the Javelin to Ukraine.  They are not sending the latest and the greatest Javelin anti-tank weaponry.  I assume the US thinks Russia already has that technology, or that it will not pose much threat to us if Russia gains that technology.

[Bee Farmer]

We can all claim to be geniuses or too good to be used as cannon fodder. After all who would want to be cannon fodder? Those that are fighting in Ukraine at the moment feel that they have no choice.

Genius is not determined by self-made claims.  Generally, you have to have an IQ above 140 to be classified as a genius.

Anyone with a 130-135 IQ can pretty much learn to do any job.
Most college kids in STEM fields have an IQ of 120+.
Average white IQ is around 100.
With an IQ of 90, a person has a hard time following written instructions.  You see people with this IQ doing manual labor jobs, rather than intellectual jobs.  (Average Mexican IQ is 91.)
Average African-American IQ is 85.  (At this IQ and below, you see a lot of welfare, as they have a hard time learning jobs that require thinking.)
The US military will not allow anyone to join if their IQ is less than 83.  They are basically so stupid they are more of a liability than an asset.  When the government has allowed soldiers with lower IQ's into the military, we ended up with McNamara's Morons.

[Bee Farmer]

I was listening to talk radio on the way home today.  Commentator said that the US and Europe have confiscated trillions in Russian money.   Once this battle is over, and the West tries to hold it, Russia will seemingly have little way to get their money returned....seemingly.   

I think trillions is overblown.  Russia had $600 billion.  (Who knows how much was frozen from oligarch accounts.)

If Ukraine remains a nation state, odds are they will sue Russia for the damage to their country in some international court.  If they win, they would be able to take some of the money that is held by sanctions.

Something tells me that if Ukrainian politicians get their hands on $600 billion, it won't all get spent for the benefit of the Ukrainian citizens.  (But I'd be willing to bet that a number of Ukrainian politicians would end up with fatter bank accounts somewhere.)

[Bee Farmer]

I agree. 
News reporters crying that if Russian oil cut off, prices will rise in the west. 
Who gives a shit about that?? 
I will willingly pay any price for gas and oil to stop Russia. 
Going to cost us a lot more in reconstruction expenses.

We might have to open the Keystone pipeline...and we can't have that.

Reconstruction?  I'm surprised anyone is even mentioning that.  You mean there's going to be a 'what comes after'?  Doesn't everyone just ride off in the sunset? (Or live in the new gulag called Ukraine, if Russia wins.)

[ML]

Average African-American IQ is 85.

I was dubious about this low number, but did a search and even the super left wing Brookings Institute studies indicates it is true.

You can go directly to the last page (13) for the facts as many of the first pages are too obtuse.

http://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/20060619_IQ_ppt.pdf

[ML]

After Ukraine is decimated due to western countries refusal to give full needed help . . . then Russia will go after Finland.

The west will say, enough is enough, and throw everything we have at Russia to save non-NATO Finland.

Try explaining that to the Ukrainians who survive.

[ML]

In a rare moment of 'light' banter, wife and I had a series of back and forth comments.

Me: Suppose western countries did attempt to set up a no fly zone over Ukraine.
She: West would surely shoot down some Russian planes and Russia would scream.
Me: We could do just as the Russians always do which is to lie and deny.
She: Yes, we could say there were no western planes over the sky in Ukraine.
Me: Yes, when Russia would again state their planes were shot down, we would say: We have no credible evidence that any western planes were in the sky.
She: If your Russian planes went missing, it's probably due to malfunction of your Russian planes.  In fact, we don't think you even have planes available to be shot down.
Me: If your Russian planes shot down, it was probably by your own troops misfiring your antiaircraft missiles.
etc., etc.

[Bee Farmer]

I'm going to have disagree to the relevance issue.   I can't speak for Russia, but from their view they may well think what is good for the goose is good for the gander.   
I'm attempting to put myself in their shoes.  From their viewpoint they probably think they need to limit how far the West can start to have influence and right up on their doorstep is too far.       

If they want to limit the West's influence, that is EASY.  Improve the quality of their citizens' lives.  Give them a quality of life that equals or exceeds Western life.

Boom. It's that simple.  If they do that, their sphere of influence will grow.

But if they want to play mafia gangster, then they will always have to resort to strongarm tactics to hold power and influence.

Hong Kong, Singapore, etc. are not Western countries.  If Russia gave its citizens the quality of life that Hong Kong and Singapore citizens have, you would see Ukraine falling over itself to be buddies with Russia.  Ukraine wouldn't give one iota about Europe or the West.

[fathertime]

If they want to limit the West's influence, that is EASY.  Improve the quality of their citizens' lives.  Give them a quality of life that equals or exceeds Western life.

Boom. It's that simple.  If they do that, their sphere of influence will grow.

But if they want to play mafia gangster, then they will always have to resort to strongarm tactics to hold power and influence.

The obvious answer to this from a Russian perspective could easily be..... The West has already been playing gangster in nations such as Iraq, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan...etc etc.   To compete we have to be gangsters too. 

Fathertime! 

[Bee Farmer]

Years ago when it was Syrian's trying to escape, they were called dregs of society, and terrorists among chants of send them back! ....now that it is Ukrainians, they are civilians.     In both cases they are civilians.   

But is it racial, or is it cultural?

The average IQ of Syrian refugees was 81.6.  In Western societies, this means they could draw welfare benefits.  The average Syrian refugee would be a burden on society, rather than a blessing.
The average Ukrainian refugee has an IQ around 100.  They are going to have the potential to learn jobs and be a productive member of society.  (Yes, a Syrian has the potential to be a ditch digger, but backhoes and excavators eliminated the need for ditch diggers.)

How many Syrian refugees had a college degree?  How many Ukrainian refugees have a college degree?

How many Syrian refugees had a Muslim faith that is hostile to Western Christianity?  But Ukrainians are Christians too.

Which refugee is going to be able to assimilate into Western culture easier?  The Ukrainian.

It's not racial discrimination.  It's cultural.

[Bee Farmer]

I do not believe for a moment that the invasion of Ukraine is about NATO.  It was because Ukraine was at a turning point as a nation.  Having a truly democratic nation next door was the threat to Russia.  Not NATO.

I agree.  Latvia and Estonia border Russia, and they are both NATO members.  Lithuania and Poland are both NATO and they surround Kaliningrad.  (Which incidentally was historically German, so it should be returned to German if you accept Putin's argument.)

Have you ever seen someone who had to sell off part of the family farm, and then for years afterwards was bitter and resentful, because it was supposed to be 'their' farm?  That's what Putin reminds me of...that mentality.

[tfcrew]

An Indian guy was complaining at Kiev train station that he'd been pushed back with a rifle butt in his back,but he'd been trying to force his way past a Ukrainian woman and her child onto a train.Black men on the steps leading up to the platform were being VERY aggressive toward Ukrainian women and their children in their way,until Ukrainian troops yelled at them to get back,and then lifted the women and children up out of the crush and onto the platform..this was all filmed by Sky News.

It was my understanding that men between 18 and 60 were not permitted to leave Ukraine. 

[Admin]

It was my understanding that men between 18 and 60 were not permitted to leave Ukraine.

Applies to Ukrainian citizens only. Male foreigners of any age in Ukraine are allowed to depart.

[Bee Farmer]

It doesn't have to be threatened, as in theory (though not in practice), communism has many desirable aspects.


I was reading a piece on Putin's cabinet, and the fact most were in the dark about the invasion.   

Communism is probably the ideal form of government, but the problem is that it is only ideal at the family level.  You can't scale it up past that.

At the family level, the parents and all the kids have clothes to wear, and food to eat.  They all live in the same house with the same amenities.  (Yes, there are examples of bad parents, but I think they are the exception and not the rule.)

From what I can tell, (and reading between the lines a little) I got the impression that Putin duped everyone into believing that he was just going to send a few troops into Donbass as peacekeepers after they recognized them as independent republics.  So Parliament agreed to recognize Luhansk and Donetsk and authorize troops to operate outside Russia...they gave Putin a blank check, and he ran with it.

[Admin]

The obvious answer to this from a Russian perspective could easily be..... The West has already been playing gangster in nations such as Iraq, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan...etc etc.   To compete we have to be gangsters too. 

Fathertime!

To be certain everyone recognizes the dubious posting style .... something which "could easily be" is NOT the same as "obvious." Time and again FT engages in bloviated hypotheses used as a foil to criticize the US and the West. The pattern is the same ad nauseum.

[fathertime]

To be certain everyone recognizes the dubious posting style .... something which "could easily be" is NOT the same as "obvious." Time and again FT engages in bloviated hypotheses used as a foil to criticize the US and the West. The pattern is the same ad nauseum.

Aside from the sematic type inconsistency...the point itself is valid enough to make.   

Fathertime!   

[Admin]

If they want to limit the West's influence, that is EASY.  Improve the quality of their citizens' lives.  Give them a quality of life that equals or exceeds Western life.

Boom. It's that simple.  If they do that, their sphere of influence will grow.

But if they want to play mafia gangster, then they will always have to resort to strongarm tactics to hold power and influence.

Hong Kong, Singapore, etc. are not Western countries.  If Russia gave its citizens the quality of life that Hong Kong and Singapore citizens have, you would see Ukraine falling over itself to be buddies with Russia.  Ukraine wouldn't give one iota about Europe or the West.

I'd clarify an important point about your parallel, and that is Singapore and Hong Kong are not the same in terms of their connection to the regional superpower. Whereas Hong Kong was ceded back to China from Britain in 1997, Singapore is an independent nation-state having no political connections to China. Singapore enjoys a higher standard of living equal to the US. I have probably 100 (or more) visa stamps from transiting or visiting Singapore, along with half that to Hong Kong. There is no other city like Singapore in Asia. It is massively different. In that regard, at least, your parallel to suggest China provides for Hong Kong and Singapore standards of living is really only correct for Hong Kong.

[Admin]

Genius is not determined by self-made claims.  Generally, you have to have an IQ above 140 to be classified as a genius.

Anyone with a 130-135 IQ can pretty much learn to do any job.
Most college kids in STEM fields have an IQ of 120+.
Average white IQ is around 100.
With an IQ of 90, a person has a hard time following written instructions.  You see people with this IQ doing manual labor jobs, rather than intellectual jobs.  (Average Mexican IQ is 91.)
Average African-American IQ is 85.  (At this IQ and below, you see a lot of welfare, as they have a hard time learning jobs that require thinking.)
The US military will not allow anyone to join if their IQ is less than 83.  They are basically so stupid they are more of a liability than an asset.  When the government has allowed soldiers with lower IQ's into the military, we ended up with McNamara's Morons.

So this is another potential quagmire, this one involving race and Intelligence Quotient (IQ). The most authoritative book I know of on the topic was highly controversial called "The Bell Curve." The authors were well-respected academics and researchers. I recall it was published more than a decade ago and it aroused enormous debate and sparked huge arguments. I accept that the study exists. I accept that there are works which counter those studies. Beyond that, I really do NOT want a re-hash of all that here at RWD. Readers/members can find those details elsewhere.


Appreciate everyone's efforts to keep race out of any debate. It leads down a rabbit hole that will result in topic closures and post removals, etc.

[Bee Farmer]

In a rare moment of 'light' banter, wife and I had a series of back and forth comments.

Me: Suppose western countries did attempt to set up a no fly zone over Ukraine.
She: West would surely shoot down some Russian planes and Russia would scream.
Me: We could do just as the Russians always do which is to lie and deny.
She: Yes, we could say there were no western planes over the sky in Ukraine.
Me: Yes, when Russia would again state their planes were shot down, we would say: We have no credible evidence that any western planes were in the sky.
She: If your Russian planes went missing, it's probably due to malfunction of your Russian planes.  In fact, we don't think you even have planes available to be shot down.
Me: If your Russian planes shot down, it was probably by your own troops misfiring your antiaircraft missiles.
etc., etc.

I have told people (including my Congressional rep) that if we are unwilling to impose a no-fly zone, we should have covert military action.  Fly F-22 Raptors and B-2 Stealth bombers at night so nobody could take photos.  We bomb Russian positions at night, and shoot down any Russian aircraft flying at night.

We would have deniability.  No, it wasn't us.  It must have been the Ukrainian military.

[Bee Farmer]

The obvious answer to this from a Russian perspective could easily be..... The West has already been playing gangster in nations such as Iraq, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan...etc etc.   To compete we have to be gangsters too. 

The Holodomor was long before the things you mentioned.  If the Holodomor wasn't gangster, I don't know what is.

The Russians don't have to be gangster to compete with other nations, because they took the gangster path first.  (One could argue that the West started being gangster to compete.)

[Patagonie]

I have told people (including my Congressional rep) that if we are unwilling to impose a no-fly zone, we should have covert military action.  Fly F-22 Raptors and B-2 Stealth bombers at night so nobody could take photos.  We bomb Russian positions at night, and shoot down any Russian aircraft flying at night.

We would have deniability.  No, it wasn't us.  It must have been the Ukrainian military.

Any direct confrontation with the Russian forces from any NATO country is a direct way for a nuke party.
The Russian Federation is already enough nervous, the option in Ukraine of a tactical nuke is already a feared topic...So if you want WW3...

[Admin]

Any direct confrontation with the Russian forces from any NATO country is a direct way for a nuke party.
The Russian Federation is already enough nervous, the option in Ukraine of a tactical nuke is already a feared topic...So if you want WW3...

Yes, it seems everyone is quaking in their boots over this. So think it through. What would be the likely response from Russian use of a tactical nuclear weapon in Ukraine?

The chance of Russia using a tactical nuclear weapon prior to a strategic nuclear weapon is, IMHO, almost zero. Putin has famously stated that a world without Russia is a world not worth existing - so it must be considered that if Putin believes Mother Russia itself is threatened, a scorched earth (literally as well as figuratively) policy would be implemented. For those who really want to stoke their paranoia fears, look at Russia's Dead Hand automatically engaged strategic nuclear device.

[Patagonie]

Yes, it seems everyone is quaking in their boots over this. So think it through. What would be the likely response from Russian use of a tactical nuclear weapon in Ukraine?

The chance of Russia using a tactical nuclear weapon prior to a strategic nuclear weapon is, IMHO, almost zero. Putin has famously stated that a world without Russia is a world not worth existing - so it must be considered that if Putin believes Mother Russia itself is threatened, a scorched earth (literally as well as figuratively) policy would be implemented. For those who really want to stoke their paranoia fears, look at Russia's Dead Hand automatically engaged strategic nuclear device.

Who says that he would use a strategic one?